Does Tony Stark deserve to die?

[Velvis]

What do you think? Does Stark deserve to die for his role in Civil War and in Cap's death?

[lonewolf23k]

Uh... I'm gonna say "No", Velvis.

[Haunt]

he hasn't done anything worse than Henry Pym or Reed Richards. where are their death threads?

[Silver Nimbus]

No. Stark must live to save the world. And kill the Hulk. Preferably at the same time.

[tjarvis]

Um let's see, he's a hero whose saved the world multiple times over.

He was also acting in accordance with the will of the people.

He was emotinally ripped apart over Cap's death.

His presence in Civil War actually stopped the events from getting worse then they otherwise would have been.

I still don't agree with his choices or methods, but to blame him for the death of Captain America is like blaming McDonalds for making you fat. He didn't help, but he didn't pull the trigger either.

[Velvis]

he hasn't done anything worse than Henry Pym or Reed Richards. where are their death threads?

Stark brought about the whole sequence of events. Richards and Pym, though culpable, were just weak-tit yes-men.

[ZacharyLovesYou]

Of course he shouldn't die. Sure he did some jerk-like things in Civil War, but people also think that because no one was covering Stark's side. Anti-Reg. was romanticized and I was a little dissapointed to how one sided Civil War was. Sure, I think Stark is a little bit of a douche, but I like that he held his ground knowing that everyone would hate him. Sure, he might be "wrong", but he fought for his beliefs when characters everyone loves like Captain America and Spider-Man were against him. I mean, who disagrees with Cap. and Spidey?

Oh, and after reading Civil War: The Confession I have no dislike for Stark anymore. It really showed the hidden man part of "Iron Man".

So no, keep him around.

[Beast]

What do you think? Does Stark deserve to die for his role in Civil War and in Cap's death?
Me thinks you're taking things to seriously. Have a nice cup of tea.

[Velvis]

What did Captain America do to deserve death?

I'm not saying Stark could be tried and convicted of murder, I'm just saying it rankles me that he's walking around smelling like a rose after what he's done, and no one is calling him on it.

It's almost as though the writers and powers that be at Marvel have ratified his decisions as being right. And they were not right. The whole thing makes me sick.

[XPac]

he hasn't done anything worse than Henry Pym or Reed Richards. where are their death threads?

I think the Atlantean stuff arguably puts Stark in a slightly different category than Richards and Pym.

[Cayman]

He should live. As Director of SHIELD and with Extremis, he's more interesting than he's been in a long time.

[tavella]

Well, he's a murderer and supervillian these days...

[Erik Lehnsherr]

He's gotta take a huge loss soon. He's been winning a LITTLE too much these days. First, Spider-Man, than Captain America? It seems Wilson Fisk was the last person to punk him out on the right level and hopefully the Hulk physically does the same.

[Haunt]

He's gotta take a huge loss soon. He's been winning a LITTLE too much these days.


yeah, i wouldn't consider losing his best friend a win. has everyone forgotten about Happy, so soon?

[XPac]

He's gotta take a huge loss soon. He's been winning a LITTLE too much these days. First, Spider-Man, than Captain America? It seems Wilson Fisk was the last person to punk him out on the right level and hopefully the Hulk physically does the same.

He's gotten punked to a degree at least physically. Cap was able to get the better of him in CW7 in actual combat, before surrendering. And Spiderman has done suprisingly well against Tony despite being outmatched on paper.

But despite all that, Stark for the most part has walked out of Civil War with as much power and resources as he could ever dream of. I personally think he's being set up for a fall... but that fall will be a LONG process that we may not comletely see for years.

He's already taken a personal toll... his rise to power is not without some level of cost. A lot of people close to him died. But that said, I think a bigger fall is waiting Stark down the road.

[The Shadow]

Well, he's a murderer and supervillian these days...

How so???

He didn't kill anyone and is working on behalf of the people upholding the laws of his country.

[Beast]

Well, he's a murderer and supervillian these days...
Since when did he murder anyone?

Read Civil War: The Confession. You seem to be laboring under many misconceptions.

[XPac]

How so???

He didn't kill anyone and is working on behalf of the people upholding the laws of his country.

Well, there were those Atleanteans.

[Calybos]

As a dangerous supervillain, Stark may deserve death as much as Dr. Doom does... but who's gonna carry out the sentence? Heroes don't kill.

[Beast]

Well, there were those Atleanteans.
That was the Green Goblin. Stark didn't blow them up himself. :)

[Erik Lehnsherr]

yeah, i wouldn't consider losing his best friend a win. has everyone forgotten about Happy, so soon?

If that really affected him, why is acting like the world is at his beck and call? He seems happy in his new Shield director's chair and casting super teams aplenty for every state. If he's remorseful over loss, it's not being shown in the least. If anything, Stark seems almost gleeful.

He's gotten punked to a degree at least physically. Cap was able to get the better of him in CW7 in actual combat, before surrendering. And Spiderman has done suprisingly well against Tony despite being outmatched on paper.

But despite all that, Stark for the most part has walked out of Civil War with as much power and resources as he could ever dream of. I personally think he's being set up for a fall... but that fall will be a LONG process that we may not comletely see for years.

He's already taken a personal toll... his rise to power is not without some level of cost. A lot of people close to him died. But that said, I think a bigger fall is waiting Stark down the road.

He has to lose big at some point but hopefully it's not a stretched out process.

[Joe Acro]

Sure. He should die. Then he, too, can have a spectacular resurrection issue or event!

[Haunt]

If that really affected him, why is acting like the world is at his beck and call? He seems happy in his new Shield director's chair and casting super teams aplenty for every state. If he's remorseful over loss, it's not being shown in the least. If anything, Stark seems almost gleeful.


he's just grown out of being one to wallow in self-pity, like Captain America. Stark is throwing himself into his work, to get his mind off of the negative stuff.

[Magneto Rocks]

Honestly, I can understand, though completely and totally disagree with, most of the stuff people say about him in CW.

I am still at a complete loss how anyone with two functioning eyes can possibly say he caused Cap's death.

[Sentinel K]

What do you think? Does Stark deserve to die for his role in Civil War and in Cap's death?

Stark is the most interesting character in the MU at the moment.

So....no.

[SKJAM!]

No, Tony Stark doesn't get to die yet. That would be too easy. First he must suffer. The solicits indicate that he's going to get called on his past bad decisions again and again by various people over the next few months. That's a good start.

Mind you, I think it would also be entirely appropriate for Ultron to have scrambled Stark's DNA so badly it takes him days after the Mighty Avengers fight to return to male form. Wouldn't it be delicious to see Ms. Marvel and Black Widow telling him how they like their coffee?

[Mariah]

To be fair, he has killed before. He's killed Marilla, Yellowjacket II, Whiplash, Gilgamesh, Justin Hammer and was instrumental in killing the Supreme Intelligence in Operation:Galactic Storm.

[tjarvis]

To be fair, he has killed before. He's killed Marilla, Yellowjacket II, Whiplash, Gilgamesh, Justin Hammer and was instrumental in killing the Supreme Intelligence in Operation:Galactic Storm.


Of course to be fair, Captain America has killed before. And crazy "The Crossing" Tony is something best left forgotten along side "wife abandoning" Scott Summers and "Mary Jane smacking" Peter Parker.

[StoneGold]

Of course to be fair, Captain America has killed before. And crazy "The Crossing" Tony is something best left forgotten along side "wife abandoning" Scott Summers and "Mary Jane smacking" Peter Parker.

Wait, I thought the Scott Summers being written right now was wife abandoning. For the second time.

[tjarvis]

Wait, I thought the Scott Summers being written right now was wife abandoning. For the second time.

The second time with Jean was a little more balanced. Scott and Jean were having marital issues long before Scott did anything romantically with Emma, and hell, Jean swapped a heavy kiss with Logan multiple times before Scott's mental tryst with Emma. Not to mention we never found out which of the two Scott was going to choose since Magneto killed Jean before he could reveal the truth.

So it wasn't quite the same thing as the whole Maddelyn Pryor ditching.

[StoneGold]

The second time with Jean was a little more balanced. Scott and Jean were having marital issues long before Scott did anything romantically with Emma, and hell, Jean swapped a heavy kiss with Logan multiple times before Scott's mental tryst with Emma. Not to mention we never found out which of the two Scott was going to choose since Magneto killed Jean before he could reveal the truth.

So it wasn't quite the same thing as the whole Maddelyn Pryor ditching.

No, but I'm still guessing a little closer than Jean would have liked.

[tavella]

That was the Green Goblin. Stark didn't blow them up himself. :)

When you send out a nano-controlled villian to murder people, you are just as guilty (more, in some ways) than the villian.

[trickster]

he hasn't done anything worse than Henry Pym or Reed Richards. where are their death threads?

He's done plenty.

[trickster]

Since when did he murder anyone?

Read Civil War: The Confession. You seem to be laboring under many misconceptions.
Have you read Extremis? IF we go by the premise that heroes shouldn't kill, then he's no longer a hero. And mob bosses don't kill people themselves, that doesn't make them any less guilty. He's responsible for Goliath's death.

[Magneto Rocks]

Have you read Extremis? IF we go by the premise that heroes shouldn't kill, then he's no longer a hero. And mob bosses don't kill people themselves, that doesn't make them any less guilty. He's responsible for Goliath's death.

Firstly, if we go by the premise that heroes don't kill, are there any heroes left? Certainly not Cap anyway, he's killed more than most.

And the "mob boss" thing totally falls apart because you forget that Tony Stark had absolutely NO intention of killing Goliath, he would have given almost ANYTHING to have that not happen and he had ZERO way of knowing it would happen.

I doubt we can say the same about a mob boss. He's as responsible as Cap is for leading them into the trap and starting the fight; that is, he's NOT.

[garin]

I'm so tired of people blaming Tony for Captain America's death.

The Red Skull killed Cap. They brainwashed Sharon, who Steve was sleeping with. They were going to be able to get him, civil war or no. The only impact of the civil war was to make it the assasination a little more theatrical than it would have otherwise been.

Iron Man had nothing whatsoever to with his death, and for that matter, had pretty much nothing to do with Cap's incarceration. Tony didn't beat him up and arrest him.

[Magneto Rocks]

Garin, to people convinced Tony killed Cap, "logic" is just another obstacle.

[Jmacq1]

No, Tony doesn't deserve to die.

But Namor should have free reign to beat the ever-loving crap out of him for his behind-the-scenes machinations in "Frontline" (crap though it was, it's still canon). Seriously, deliberately trying to start a war? What the hell was he thinking? If Namor doesn't slap him around then preferably someone he'll listen to should. Maybe that hippie professor that's his "executive officer" in SHIELD now or something.

I agree he's definitely set up to take the big fall, thoug. However that's a recurring theme with Tony anyway. Every time he reaches the heights of his success, he loses it all one way or another, then builds himself back up again. I suspect this time will ultimately be no different. In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him lose the Directorship of SHIELD only to turn around and win a Presidential bid in 2008.

[Velvis]

Logic has nothing to do with it. Logic had nothing to do with Cap being offed either. It was just a sales gimmick.

To me, it's about payback. Just as the Republicans impeached Clinton as payback for Nixon, I just want to see Stark offed as payback for Cap. No logic about it. Just the satisfaction in seeing the creep removed from Marvel Earth.

It would sell a lot of copies. That's the only logic you need to hang your hat on.

[jadrax]

Hulk Smash!

[agrich]

He deserves to be killed and replaced with a teenaged version of himself from an alternate past. That teenaged version can then get sucked into an alternate reality, only to return a bit later as an adult Tony Stark, who basically is the same as the version of himself who was killed. Sort of like already happened in the Marvel Universe about 10 years ago.

[Shellhead]

Every one of us will eventually die. Do we deserve to die? Or is it simply the natural outcome of having lived?

[Alan2099]

Death is too easy. He needs to fall. He needs to fail utterly and relize that he was just completley wrong. Everything he's done in these past several months needs to come back and bite him in the behind. Hulk beating him down is a nice start though.

[Mariah]

Of course to be fair, Captain America has killed before. And crazy "The Crossing" Tony is something best left forgotten along side "wife abandoning" Scott Summers and "Mary Jane smacking" Peter Parker.

Firstly, if we go by the premise that heroes don't kill, are there any heroes left? Certainly not Cap anyway, he's killed more than most.

And the "mob boss" thing totally falls apart because you forget that Tony Stark had absolutely NO intention of killing Goliath, he would have given almost ANYTHING to have that not happen and he had ZERO way of knowing it would happen.

I doubt we can say the same about a mob boss. He's as responsible as Cap is for leading them into the trap and starting the fight; that is, he's NOT.
Killing in war isn't considered the same as murdering someone. It's kill or be killed, not kill innocent civilians as what happened to Marella and YJII.

And I'm not one of those people who are all gung ho! I hate Cap, he was wrong! I hate IM, he was wrong and is now a villian, as so many people are like on here, especially in the CW boards(psychos). I still happen to like both characters, and will continue to until I no longer read comic books.

[Red Orion]

I hope Thor knocks Tony's head off when he comes back.

[tavella]

Iron Man had nothing whatsoever to with his death, and for that matter, had pretty much nothing to do with Cap's incarceration. Tony didn't beat him up and arrest him.

SHIELD took him into custody, as seen in The Confession; they had him in their care and control. The Red Skull then pulled strings to get him into federal court. And thus turned him over to the federal government... you know, the people that Stark knows are heavily seamed with corruption. Not to mention that Stark's explanation for all he did was that he needed to be in charge of SHIELD to protect superheroes from the government, which he portrayed as itching to kill all superheroes.

Now, he might not have been able to avoid the turnover... but he also, despite the fact that he must have known that strings were being pulled, and despite that this was a public transfer known far enough ahead of time that a large crowd was there with signs, put no effort into protecting Cap. There were plenty of SHIELD operatives there to pick up Crossbones *after*, but no one to scan for snipers ahead of time?

And of course, there's the higher level: Cap was killed because of a war that Tony Stark began and egged on with all his ability.

Murderer of Steve Rogers? Not directly... but definitely an accessory before the fact.

[StoneGold]

SHIELD took him into custody, as seen in The Confession; they had him in their care and control. The Red Skull then pulled strings to get him into federal court. And thus turned him over to the federal government... you know, the people that Stark knows are heavily seamed with corruption. Not to mention that Stark's explanation for all he did was that he needed to be in charge of SHIELD to protect superheroes from the government, which he portrayed as itching to kill all superheroes.

Now, he might not have been able to avoid the turnover... but he also, despite the fact that he must have known that strings were being pulled, and despite that this was a public transfer known far enough ahead of time that a large crowd was there with signs, put no effort into protecting Cap. There were plenty of SHIELD operatives there to pick up Crossbones *after*, but no one to scan for snipers ahead of time?

And of course, there's the higher level: Cap was killed because of a war that Tony Stark began and egged on with all his ability.

Murderer of Steve Rogers? Not directly... but definitely an accessory before the fact.

So because Stark knows there are corrupt elements in the government, he shouldn't hand over a criminal because the Red Skull might kill him? You realize, by that logic, no hero should ever turn in anyone for arrest, and should just execute them in the street, right?

[mattx110]

So because Stark knows there are corrupt elements in the government, he shouldn't hand over a criminal because the Red Skull might kill him? You realize, by that logic, no hero should ever turn in anyone for arrest, and should just execute them in the street, right?
first of all, your summation "no hero should ever turn in... execute them... etc"
is not representing what was said.

he's saying that in effect, that's what stark did by not properly protecting cap.

if nick fury were in charge of shield, this kind of thing never would have happened.

[garin]

SHIELD took him into custody, as seen in The Confession; they had him in their care and control. The Red Skull then pulled strings to get him into federal court. And thus turned him over to the federal government... you know, the people that Stark knows are heavily seamed with corruption. Not to mention that Stark's explanation for all he did was that he needed to be in charge of SHIELD to protect superheroes from the government, which he portrayed as itching to kill all superheroes.
So, all throughout the event, we've had people complaining about the superhumans held without trial in 42. Suddenly, turning one over for trial is a bad thing?

The SHRA is a federal law, enforced by SHIELD. If the federal government want to try a citizen for breaking that law, the head of SHIELD can't simply refuse to hand him over. That's ridiculous, and outside Tony's mandate. It was on the federal government's behalf that Cap was taken into custody in the first place.

Now, he might not have been able to avoid the turnover... but he also, despite the fact that he must have known that strings were being pulled, and despite that this was a public transfer known far enough ahead of time that a large crowd was there with signs, put no effort into protecting Cap. There were plenty of SHIELD operatives there to pick up Crossbones *after*, but no one to scan for snipers ahead of time?We don't know that there wasn't. There had to be a security breach to serve the needs of the story, but it's not reasonable to infer from it that no effort was made to secure the area. Crossbones is pretty good at what he does.

And of course, there's the higher level: Cap was killed because of a war that Tony Stark began and egged on with all his ability.This is just silly. Tony tried harder than anyone to prevent the war.

Furthermore, Cap was not killed because of the war. He was killed by the Red Skull as part of a plot that been brewing in Cap's title since before anyone had ever heard of the SHRA.

[StoneGold]

first of all, your summation "no hero should ever turn in... execute them... etc"
is not representing what was said.

he's saying that in effect, that's what stark did by not properly protecting cap.

if nick fury were in charge of shield, this kind of thing never would have happened.

Like Luke Cage in Secret War, right?


And Fury was there and it did no good!

[streator]

nope. 1

[mattx110]

Like Luke Cage in Secret War, right?


And Fury was there and it did no good!

that was a secret.
this was in the open in front of reporters and a courthouse.
it's easier to set up a perimiter around a courthouse than luke cage's apartment.

plus fury wasn't completely working through shield, he couldn't organize a force without being notices so he used a handfull of superpeople. completely different circumstance.

[myslead]

I wouldn't say that he needs to die but he needs to get a ass whooping by the hulk.

[StoneGold]

that was a secret.
this was in the open in front of reporters and a courthouse.
it's easier to set up a perimiter around a courthouse than luke cage's apartment.

plus fury wasn't completely working through shield, he couldn't organize a force without being notices so he used a handfull of superpeople. completely different circumstance.

Yes. The circumstances of Secret War and Death of a Dream weren't exactly the same. But you have to admit, they were pretty damn close.

As for where you were saying different circumstances, no, Fury was there. Was he in complete control of the situation? Obviously not. But he was directly monitoring the situation, and he couldn't stop it.

[Kirayoshi]

I don't blame Tony for Cap's death.

However I would not at all be surprised if we see a scene in an upcoming comic(maybe the Fallen Son: Iron Man special) where Tony makes a call to someone, saying, "All right, mister. You got what you wanted. Cap's gone and the heroes are under my control. Don't contact me again." And as he hangs up we see Red Skull on the other line, smiling because he now owns Tony Stark.

This isn't a criticism of Iron Man, but a criticism of the current editorial mind-set at Marvel.

[The Punished]

To quote Samuel L. Jackson:

" Yes, they deserved to die and I hope they burn in hell! "

They meaning Tony Stark, but not really...

Iron Man has been a pretty darn good read for the last year or so when its been shipped.

[barbarous j]

I don't think he should die, and I don't think he was necessarily wrong in most of the things he did. However, he seemed to be handling his friends in a very cutthroat manner, and it seems his primary motivation was to build his power base. I just want to see someone knock him down a peg (or seven). It'll be interesting to see if his involvement in exiling the Hulk comes to light and how people will react once WWH is over. Will they think "He was right and this just proves it", or will they blame him for the hell Hulk is about to reign down on this stupid planet?

[mattx110]

i think he needs to learn how to use shield properly.
if he dies there wouldn't be much to gain. just a pissed off jim rhodes.

[XPac]

So, all throughout the event, we've had people complaining about the superhumans held without trial in 42. Suddenly, turning one over for trial is a bad thing?



No, but the fact that 100% of the people they turn over for trial are getting shot is a bad thing.

While they are under SHIELD custody, they are responsible for anything that happens. It is SHIELDS responsibility to ensure that nothing happens to their prisoners, and if something happens then they are accountable. That's just how it works.

I think after Speedball it should have been obvious that SOMETHING needed to be done (especially with Captain America). It's a pity Tony had no Futurists on his side to anticipate this sort of thing.

[Haunt]

first of all, your summation "no hero should ever turn in... execute them... etc"
is not representing what was said.

he's saying that in effect, that's what stark did by not properly protecting cap.

if nick fury were in charge of shield, this kind of thing never would have happened.

what corruption did Nick Fury stop, in his day?

No, but the fact that 100% of the people they turn over for trial are getting shot is a bad thing.

While they are under SHIELD custody, they are responsible for anything that happens. It is SHIELDS responsibility to ensure that nothing happens to their prisoners, and if something happens then they are accountable. That's just how it works.

you've just argued for the Negative Zone prison. no trial = no assassination attempt.

[XPac]

you've just argued for the Negative Zone prison. no trial = no assassination attempt.

That's ridiculously black and white logic. Me arguing that they didn't do enough to protect the heroes going on trial is not the same thing as me arguing that they shouldn't get receive due process. If Tony is too stupid or apathetic to find a sollution that keeps people from getting shot while still acting within the confines of the very constitutional laws he's suppossedly enforcing, then he shouldn't have the job he has now.

[StoneGold]

That's ridiculously black and white logic. Me arguing that they didn't do enough to protect the heroes going on trial is not the same thing as me arguing that they shouldn't get receive due process. If Tony is too stupid or apathetic to find a sollution that keeps people from getting shot while still acting within the confines of the very constitutional laws he's suppossedly enforcing, then he shouldn't have the job he has now.

Tony doesn't enforce constitutional laws. Not US constitutional laws, anyways. Not his job. It's the whole international agency thing, remember?

Cap was not in SHIELD custody. This wasn't the prisoner transfer from SHIELD to the US Marshals, he was already in federal custody. Now granted, since SHIELD's charter is one of those things like the SHRA itself that we are never really going to see, SHIELD could still have some level of jurisdiction. However, since it suits the story for it not to, I'm going to assume that it would have actually been illegal for SHIELD to have been exerting authority over a sovereign state trying one of its own citizens.

[mattx110]

what corruption did Nick Fury stop, in his day?



you've just argued for the Negative Zone prison. no trial = no assassination attempt.

agh,stop talking like tony snow!

how many times was the symbol of the american dream assassinated while nick fury was director of shield?
how long did it take for cap to get killed in the public while unable to protect himself while tony was director of shield?

nick fury made sure he was doing his job whether he pissed off local authorities or not.

plus, providing security and arresting attempted snipers isn't something the police are going to reject. if a vigilante public figure with lots of enemies is going to be anywhere in a position where he's unable to defend himself in front of press. even out of safety for the press and public including federal judges and whoever was in that courthouse. tony should have at least considered the possibility of an assassination attempt. a lot more people could have died. he's lucky it was just cap.

if a former vice president is going to appear in court, the secret service make sure he's protected.
cap has more enemies than the vice president (in theory).


we're not saying tony should have commandeered the trial and tell the local officials to screw off. he should have provided protection. there's a difference between someone taking away your guns so he can use his, and someone else with a gun saying "i got your back".

plus, was anyone gonna say "tony, you've been friends with this man for years and want him safe, but we can't let you help"? there are too many reasons to be safe. although as far as story potential goes, someone almost shooting cap happens every day. someone actually taking him out using his ex-girlfriend... that's new.

[XPac]

Tony doesn't enforce constitutional laws. Not US constitutional laws, anyways. Not his job. It's the whole international agency thing, remember?



I'll admit I'm no expert on international law. So if an international police force arrests an american citizen on american soil for breaking an american law, what juridiction does it fall under if it's not US contitutional law? What should Tony's job be here?

[Magneto Rocks]

I'll admit I'm no expert on international law. So if an international police force arrests an american citizen on american soil for breaking an american law, what juridiction does it fall under if it's not US contitutional law? What should Tony's job be here?

Cap was arrested by US policemen on US soil. The only time SHIELD factored remotely into the equation was that Tony got special dispensation to have Cap's body brought aboard the Helicarrier for him to say goodbye. He could do nothing to tighten security, or to save Cap.

[Jmacq1]

Cap was arrested by US policemen on US soil. The only time SHIELD factored remotely into the equation was that Tony got special dispensation to have Cap's body brought aboard the Helicarrier for him to say goodbye. He could do nothing to tighten security, or to save Cap.

Really? Then why was Cap in SHIELD custody prior to his trial (as shown in "The Confession")? Looks like the body wasn't the only "special dispensation."

At some point, there was a handoff. Whether or not that handoff was absolutely necessary is what's in question. Clearly the security surrounding Cap was pathetic. Even a person of average intelligence should have been able to surmise that someone on Steve's level of recognition would need Presidential-level security (or greater) to actually be safe. You know, things that include policing likely sniper locations and having counter-snipers in place. If the local police/federal marshals couldn't afford that level of manpower, then SHIELD should have been called in to augment them. They certainly arrived at the hospital pretty quickly.

[XPac]

Cap was arrested by US policemen on US soil. The only time SHIELD factored remotely into the equation was that Tony got special dispensation to have Cap's body brought aboard the Helicarrier for him to say goodbye. He could do nothing to tighten security, or to save Cap.

Yes, but there were obviously plenty of heroes that were taken into SHIELD custody (though honestly it looked like he was in SHIELD custody while he was in the helicarrier). Stonegold said SHIELD doesn't enforce US constitutional laws, so I was just curious how it's suppossed to work when you're arresting US citizens on US soil for breaking US laws. The Jurisdiction of it is kind of a grey area for me (which is part of the reason why I honestly feel it's wrong to involve SHIELD as much as they are).

[StoneGold]

Yes, but there were obviously plenty of heroes that were taken into SHIELD custody (though honestly it looked like he was in SHIELD custody while he was in the helicarrier). Stonegold said SHIELD doesn't enforce US constitutional laws, so I was just curious how it's suppossed to work when you're arresting US citizens on US soil for breaking US laws. The Jurisdiction of it is kind of a grey area for me (which is part of the reason why I honestly feel it's wrong to involve SHIELD as much as they are).

There has to be some allowance for it, as otherwise a UN force couldn't operate at all. However, I'd also assume there would be some relatively strict rules of engagement.

[Morw]

I think people here need to count to ten and take deep breath.

We all know that if the writters wanted to kill of cap as a shock effect ( wicth they just did by the way) it would not have mattered who was in charge of SHIELD or what the end result of CW had been. He would still be gunned down by the woman he was sleeping with while redskull wacthed on national TV.

So stopp acting like its Tony's faoult. Its the writters of the captain america comic that decided they wanted to kill him off.

And No Tony does not deserve to die, but Cap did becouse the writters ment he did deserve it and they got the final word.

[XPac]

And No Tony does not deserve to die, but Cap did becouse the writters ment he did deserve it and they got the final word.

Just because a writer has a character die doesn't mean they deserve to die.

If that were the case, then Stamford would have been no big deal. Those school children that Nitro blew up just got what they deserve.

[Morw]

hehe :evilsmile And where does it say that the writters needs to nice guys?

And you clearly have no sense of humor..

But to clearfy: The writters thought cap needed to die for the story they are writting to work. You might not agree with it but they got the final world. so not much you can do about it.

me personaly: A guy who claims he won WW2 alone when it was the russians and regular joe's that died for peoples freedome and not some guy high on drugs wearing a silly costume and a shield. For me he is an insult to my granddad who died in the second world war. Guess respect for what really happend back then is none exsistant in Marvel.

[XPac]

hehe :evilsmile And where does it say that the writters needs to nice guys?

And you clearly have no sense of humor..

But to clearfy: The writters thought cap needed to die for the story they are writting to work. You might not agree with it but they got the final world. so not much you can do about it.

me personaly: A guy who claims he won WW2 alone when it was the russians and regular joe's that died for peoples freedome and not some guy high on drugs wearing a silly costume and a shield. For me he is an insult to my granddad who died in the second world war. Guess respect for what really happend back then is none exsistant in Marvel.

When did Cap say he won WW2 alone? What exactly was the quote, because I think you might be taking what he said out of context.

[StoneGold]

Hell, Cap was MIA/presumed KIA when WWII ended. Besides, it was the Human Torch who killed Hitler.

[tavella]

Cap was arrested by US policemen on US soil. The only time SHIELD factored remotely into the equation was that Tony got special dispensation to have Cap's body brought aboard the Helicarrier for him to say goodbye. He could do nothing to tighten security, or to save Cap.

Denial is entertaining, but The Confession quite clearly has him marched by SHIELD guards past columns of more SHIELD guards into a cell guarded by yes, yet more SHIELD guards. Whereupon he is visited by the head of SHIELD.

So, yes, he was in SHIELD custody.

[StoneGold]

Denial is entertaining, but The Confession quite clearly has him marched by SHIELD guards past columns of more SHIELD guards into a cell guarded by yes, yet more SHIELD guards. Whereupon he is visited by the head of SHIELD.

So, yes, he was in SHIELD custody.

At some point, yes. Not when he was being led to be arraigned when his assassination occurred, though. They were practically covered in DoJ US Marshal insignias.

[tavella]

At some point, yes. Not when he was being led to be arraigned when his assassination occurred, though. They were practically covered in DoJ US Marshal insignias.

Magneto Rocks was claiming that he had never been in SHIELD custody until after he was dead; that's what I was refuting.

I wouldn't biff on Stark so much for this if he hadn't laid so much emphasis on how he had to be in charge of the superheroes because he didn't trust the government with their identities, he had to start the war because the alternative was Project Wideawake because the government was champing at the bit to kill superheroes, etc, etc.

So basically, he had Cap in his custody, handed him over to the government he claimed himself was corrupt and murder-minded, and then didn't bother to do anything to protect him. Despite there being SHIELD agents close enough to pick up Crossbones on short order, none could be spared for such basic security measures as checking sniper vantage points.

[StoneGold]

Despite there being SHIELD agents close enough to pick up Crossbones on short order, none could be spared for such basic security measures as checking sniper vantage points.

The only SHIELD agent shown anywhere near the courtyard was Sharon. And she was too busy killing Cap to track down Crossbones. Not to mention, she wasn't technically there in capacity as a SHIELD agent, she was in the crowd with her uniform covered up until Bones took the shot. SHIELD didn't arrive in force on the scene until significantly later. They just weren't there. This was a US marshals operation. Seriously, this would be like complaining that, if he were to be assassinated, that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's death was the fault of the CIA because they formerly had him in custody. It's the army that currently has custody of him, and therefor the fault would lie with the army.



Now, there could be some fault on SHIELD, in that they didn't manage to root out the Skull before he could institute his plan. Although whether or not the Red Skull falls under SHIELD jurisdiction at this point... who knows. Hell, as far as SHIELD still knows, he's dead. And last time they tried going after Lukin, it got them ear deep in hot water.

[XPac]

The only SHIELD agent shown anywhere near the courtyard was Sharon. And she was too busy killing Cap to track down Crossbones. Not to mention, she wasn't technically there in capacity as a SHIELD agent, she was in the crowd with her uniform covered up until Bones took the shot. SHIELD didn't arrive in force on the scene until significantly later. They just weren't there. This was a US marshals operation. Seriously, this would be like complaining that, if he were to be assassinated, that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's death was the fault of the CIA because they formerly had him in custody. It's the army that currently has custody of him, and therefor the fault would lie with the army.



Now, there could be some fault on SHIELD, in that they didn't manage to root out the Skull before he could institute his plan. Although whether or not the Red Skull falls under SHIELD jurisdiction at this point... who knows. Hell, as far as SHIELD still knows, he's dead. And last time they tried going after Lukin, it got them ear deep in hot water.


I suppose to some degree, one could sort of argue SHIELD has some responsibility since Sharon, an agent of SHIELD, shot Cap.

[StoneGold]

I suppose to some degree, one could sort of argue SHIELD has some responsibility since Sharon, an agent of SHIELD, shot Cap.

True, but no one knows that yet. And I don't think you could blame Tony, because all the brainwashing happened under Hill's watch. You could blame Fury just as much, considering he was talking to her immediately before she killed Cap. How come Fury wasn't able to ferret out a double agent (triple?) in his own employ?

[Deep_Sleeper]

I think after Civil War, Tony Stark has become a much more interesting character. I'd read about him if I liked the art in the book.

[Red Orion]

Now, there could be some fault on SHIELD, in that they didn't manage to root out the Skull before he could institute his plan. Although whether or not the Red Skull falls under SHIELD jurisdiction at this point... who knows. Hell, as far as SHIELD still knows, he's dead. And last time they tried going after Lukin, it got them ear deep in hot water.

You honestly think they don't know about the video Red Skull released that was being shown on TV during "Twenty-First Century Blitz" where he claims credit for the attack on London?

[rZi]

"die" is a little strong....personaly i think he's been completely villianised by Marvel and it's gonna take them years to change peoples opinions on him. I do feel he should be punished for his rough handling of the situation...but death is a little strong ;z

[wellsoul2]

"die" is a little strong....personaly i think he's been completely villianised by Marvel and it's gonna take them years to change peoples opinions on him. I do feel he should be punished for his rough handling of the situation...but death is a little strong ;z

I agree. He's more interesting. I wish they'd write him consistently though
instead of having him cry in one title and be a gleeful jerk in another.
I think his characterization is an evolution of his character.

What I do want to see is most of the rest of the pro-reg heroes seriously
question 42, Clor, and Thunderbolts decisions.
I found it ludicrous to think most of these heroes would put up with mind
control, cloning a friend or jailing heroes with no trial.

I suppose now the heroes will have second thoughts..how many issues
before they fix the mess of Millar's simplistic CW mess?

They really should just make Iron Man a villian..
Seriously..he's evil..just for going along with making Clor and starting the
war with Atlantis.

[Magneto Rocks]

Magneto Rocks was claiming that he had never been in SHIELD custody until after he was dead; that's what I was refuting.

.

No, I wasn't, I was pointing out there is no way in HELL Tony is responsible, and that he was in SHIELD custody for ten minutes hardly changes that.

What I do want to see is most of the rest of the pro-reg heroes seriously
question 42, Clor, and Thunderbolts decisions.

I notice no-one thinks anti-reg heroes should seriously question making deals with the Kingpin, ripping up New York, causing mass civilian casualties and using possibly the largest mass murderer in the United States as an unrestrained weapon.

[tavella]

I notice no-one thinks anti-reg heroes should seriously question making deals with the Kingpin, ripping up New York, causing mass civilian casualties and using possibly the largest mass murderer in the United States as an unrestrained weapon.

Whatever you feel about the morality of his choices, Cap turned himself in, and was prepared to go on trial for his actions and beliefs, and die for them if necessary. Then he was murdered on the courthouse steps. He's dead; you can't exactly extract anything more.

Mr. Tony Stark? The man who nano-controlled a supervillian to murder Atlanteans and and attack an ambassador? Mr. Reed Richards? Mr. Henry Pym? The people that created a mind controlled clone, let it loose to kill, and then _used it again_? The whole proreg side for their cheery imprisonment without trial, their use of the worst villians in the MU to hunt heros, etc, etc?

Gosh, for a side that claims to be all about accountability for superheroes, they sure are big on dodging it for themselves.

[XPac]

Whatever you feel about the morality of his choices, Cap turned himself in, and was prepared to go on trial for his actions and beliefs, and die for them if necessary. Then he was murdered on the courthouse steps. He's dead; you can't exactly extract anything more.

Mr. Tony Stark? The man who nano-controlled a supervillian to murder Atlanteans and and attack an ambassador? Mr. Reed Richards? Mr. Henry Pym? The people that created a mind controlled clone, let it loose to kill, and then _used it again_? The whole proreg side for their cheery imprisonment without trial, their use of the worst villians in the MU to hunt heros, etc, etc?

Gosh, for a side that claims to be all about accountability for superheroes, they sure are big on dodging it for themselves.

Yeah... that's a pretty significant difference.

Both sides acted wrongly. But Cap admitted he was wrong, turned himself in to pay for his mistakes. Iron Man on the other hand just got richer and more powerful.

Neither side can say they didn't make any mistakes... but only one can say they actually took responsibility and accountability for their mistakes.