Batgirl situation after TT#44 (SPOILERS)

[elias_A]

edit: Spoiler warning, of course...












So let's look at the current situation of Cassandra after Teen Titans #44.

Yes, the drug seems to make her "not guilty", but with the last panel the writers seem to embrace the concept that "she was raised to be a killer and is always in danger to start killing again".

And the drug doesn't create mind-control in Dr. Psycho fashion - it creates a forced personality change. That makes sense, since Deathstroke probably didn't want his daughter to cut out her eye. But that can also be interpreted like the "evil Cass" the drug awakened was always somewhere inside her.

So personally, I am not overwhelmed with this issue.

We don't even get the big fight with Ravager that was foreshadowed. Cass doesn't fight very good - that could be explained with the drug somehow, I guess, or even in Hush-style that deep down she knows what she is doing and wants to be stopped. But the fight happens mostly off-panel, and suddenly we see Rose as victor, with her sword at Cass throat, and Cass is only saved by Sungirl.

Robin tries to explain away Cass recent appearance in the Supergirl series, with carefully avoiding to say she was "leading" the league of assasins, only involved with it. So I guess DC have no further plans with Cass and the league, but it seems also pretty obvious they had once and then changed direction.
Because of our protests? Seems almost too good to be true.
Because of Geoff's generosity? If that's true, he definitely deserves praise.

Maybe one shouldn't look a gifted horse in the mouth, but I would very much like to know what DC wanted to to with evil Cass, and why they changed plans. I think we Batgirl fans deserve an explanation.

But of course, the story is not over yet. It's to early to say that Cass was really saved.

[Karl O'Neill]

I remember first reading about batgirl from the no mans land story.
never tho she would get so popular.
Good to see all the same

[Sean Whitmore]

Because of our protests? Seems almost too good to be true.
Because of Geoff's generosity? If that's true, he definitely deserves praise.

I'd definitely guess the latter.

I'd be shocked (not to mention dismayed) if fan complaints could effect that kind of change so rapidly.


SEAN

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'd definitely guess the latter.

I'd be shocked (not to mention dismayed) if fan complaints could effect that kind of change so rapidly.


SEAN

Well, what would be the point of rejecting it all otherwise? Seems odd to me that they'd turn Cass evil and then reserve it so suddenly.

[Karl O'Neill]

us fans get results when we moan!!!

ha ha ha, it's so funny how fickle fans can be,

save manhunter!
Bring back hawkeye!
where's wally west?!

[wes_rk]

I hope she comes back, I don't know it they'll give her a new book, but I would definitely want to see her more often. I read a few issues of her old book and I liked it.

[Captain Jim]

Robin tries to explain away Cass recent appearance in the Supergirl series, with carefully avoiding to say she was "leading" the league of assasins, only involved with it. So I guess DC have no further plans with Cass and the league, but it seems also pretty obvious they had once and then changed direction.
Because of our protests? Seems almost too good to be true.
Because of Geoff's generosity? If that's true, he definitely deserves praise.

Maybe one shouldn't look a gifted horse in the mouth, but I would very much like to know what DC wanted to to with evil Cass, and why they changed plans.

Both of your proposed explanations might have some merit. Geoff is Mr. Continuity, after all, so his "save" isn't all that surprizing. But I'd like to think the fans' protests had something to do with it too. As I recall, Didio seemed a bit taken back by fan criticism on this issue at some of the conventions soon after it all transpired and immediately began making remarks about DC having plans for Batgirl.

In any case, it certainly does appear to be a turnaround from the original intention and I guess I fall in the "shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth" category.

[CMBMOOL]

Both of your proposed explanations might have some merit. Geoff is Mr. Continuity, after all, so his "save" isn't all that surprizing. But I'd like to think the fans' protests had something to do with it too. As I recall, Didio seemed a bit taken back by fan criticism on this issue at some of the conventions soon after it all transpired and immediately began making remarks about DC having plans for Batgirl.

In any case, it certainly does appear to be a turnaround from the original intention and I guess I fall in the "shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth" category.

Yep, asked hard enough and thou shall receive. :rolleyes:

[jerrymcl89]

DC is basically in the business of giving fans what they want (and moreso, in this case, not giving them what they don't). I'm pretty sure their initial plans were different, but they quickly saw that they weren't what the fans wanted. Making Cass more like Jason Todd (and, it certainly would not surprise me to see her teaming up with him in the future) is something that I think would gain greater acceptance, even if that's not quite what the fans want, either.

[Drink]

I'm somewhat happy, yet still wary of the whole thing. There's still plenty of room to screw things up, especially with Beechen taking on more of a role in the next couple of issues before taking over completely. But hopefully, he's learned his lesson since last time and wants to avoid getting more wrath from fans over Batgirl.

As for the quickness of the whole thing, I think it has more to do with the abnormally fast pace of the story more than anything. By all rights it should be a couple extra issues.

Anyway, I'd prefer Cass stays good, but Anti-Hero can work, if done right. I'd prefer she stay clear of Jason Todd though, as she doesn't need to be that level of Anti-Hero, but more a Manhunter-esque type thing.

[Sean Whitmore]

Well, what would be the point of rejecting it all otherwise? Seems odd to me that they'd turn Cass evil and then reserve it so suddenly.

Like Cap'n Jim said, I think it might've been Geoff. He's got quite a history of taking characters who were changed somehow and saying, "Nope, liked 'em the old way better." :)


SEAN

[Starba]

Like Cap'n Jim said, I think it might've been Geoff. He's got quite a history of taking characters who were changed somehow and saying, "Nope, liked 'em the old way better." :)


SEAN

Well, that, and changing new characters like Impulse into something else entirely.

We also don't know who made the creative decision that Batgirl should become an antagonist to Robin. It may have been Johns himself, which would explain why he'd be so lenient about reneging on it, or altering the execution so it more closely fits the model he originally had in mind.

[blackphoenix]

I'm glad Cassie is back on the side of angels again, but let's not forget that she was a killer BEFORE Deathstroke drugged her. ANYWAYS, mebbe if we complain loudly enough, the guys at the Superman offices will get rid of the hooker Supergirl and bring back the girl next door version from Many Happy Returns...

A dude can dream, can't he???

[Sean Whitmore]

Well, that, and changing new characters like Impulse into something else entirely.

Well, in a weird kind of cockeyed way, he reverted Impulse back to Kid Flash.

Not that Bart ever was Kid Flash, you understand, I just mean he took the "young speedster" archetype we had (Impulse) and reverted him to the "young speedster" type of yesteryear (Kid Flash).

Kinda like with some of his Justice Society characters, such as Atom-Smasher and Sand.

It does all fit the M.O. :)


SEAN

[Starba]

Well, in a weird kind of cockeyed way, he reverted Impulse back to Kid Flash.

Not that Bart ever was Kid Flash, you understand, I just mean he took the "young speedster" archetype we had (Impulse) and reverted him to the "young speedster" type of yesteryear (Kid Flash).

Kinda like with some of his Justice Society characters, such as Atom-Smasher and Sand.

It does all fit the M.O. :)


SEAN

Changing the costume's fine, but altering the personality right along with it borders on disturbing. It reminds me of parents who dress up their little girls like porcelain dolls whether they like it or not. As if they think of their kids as a blank slate rather than the people they really are and how they like to express themselves.

[Kaos]

So Cass is good again....PHHEEW

[Damo]

I'm glad Cassie is back on the side of angels again, but let's not forget that she was a killer BEFORE Deathstroke drugged her.

Uh, no, she wasn't. This issue makes that pretty clear. Unless you're talking about that time when she was a kid and had no idea what she was doing, or the time she "killed" Shiva in a way that ensured Shiva would be alive and sipping tea the next day...

[cactusmaac]

I'm perfectly happy to attribute that to the retcon-punch.

Next issue better see Cass lay the smacketh down on Deathstroke's candy-ass.

[DavidAllred]

I'm also very happy she is good again. There were some major mistakes made with OYL in that fans just weren't ready for massive changes with absolutely no explanation.

We all thought that 52 was going to fill in the gaps, but it didn't and it couldn't. So, Cass is good again and that's great. Now, give us Wally back please.

[Lester C.]

Guys the arc isn't done yet. They very well may decide to kill of the character, like they did in Supergirl, or just keep her evil. We really shouldn't be jumping to conclusions.

[colossus34]

*Yawn* she's good again. I don't really care either way but the reasoning behind it was pretty lame. DS turned her evil to get back at Nightwing?!? :confused:

First off, correct me if I'm wrong but Cass and Grayson had no special relationship. I can't even recall a scene between them. Hell, DS failed(and the writers) miserably either way cause Nightwing never even acknowledged her change OYL.

Most importantly, Slade BLEW UP Nightwing's city---I mean completly desimatted it. Wasn't that payback enough?? Damn you Dido!

[SpaceBooger]

I think the johns wanted this to happen the whole time. The setup of evil cass in robin as soon as OYL started, and now almost a year later the redemption.
Also, in Teen Titans everything has seemed rushed recently... so the redemption of cass fits right in.

[elias_A]

First off, correct me if I'm wrong but Cass and Grayson had no special relationship. I can't even recall a scene between them.

Not really a scene, but in Gabrych's first Batgirl issue she remembers how he expained her what Cinderella is and told her the story, doing all the voices, what made her laugh...

A really great moment, that showed Dick as some sort of caring, perfect elder brother; for me, that's how his character should be written (but I admit I never read much Nightwing, so I could be wrong).

[jadrax]

First off, correct me if I'm wrong but Cass and Grayson had no special relationship. I can't even recall a scene between them. Hell, DS failed(and the writers) miserably either way cause Nightwing never even acknowledged her change OYL.

Actually one of my favourite Batman scenes ever is between Nightwing and Batgirl.

It is an absolutely fantastic scene in Fugitive where Batgirl Convinced Nightwing that Bruce is incapable of being the killer by having Nightwing beat her to get matching injuries to the victim.

[Starba]

Not really a scene, but in Gabrych's first Batgirl issue she remembers how he expained her what Cinderella is and told her the story, doing all the voices, what made her laugh...

A really great moment, that showed Dick as some sort of caring, perfect elder brother; for me, that's how his character should be written (but I admit I never read much Nightwing, so I could be wrong).

Also, Batgirl had an entire issue of Nightwing devoted to her when Dick got injured.

[Babylon23]

Now, I'm sure all the Batgirl fans are going to attack me on this one, but maybe this wasn't John's idea. Beechan is co-plotter of the issue.

Maybe Beechan saw this as an opportunity to correct editorial's mistake. Remember, he was told to make Batgirl evil in his first issue of Robin. So maybe he saw the fan reaction, and thought that this was a good time to fix things.

Anyway, I wonder if Batgirl will hang around after the Titans East story, and maybe join the Titans.

As for the Batgirl/Ravager fight, I assume it wasn't shown because it wasn't relevant to the overall story. I mean, the book is Teen Titans, not Batgirl. What was important was having her defeated so that the drug could be administered. I'm sure they'll show a lot more of Batgirl's fight with Deathstroke in the upcoming issues.

[elias_A]

Now, I'm sure all the Batgirl fans are going to attack me on this one, but maybe this wasn't John's idea. Beechan is co-plotter of the issue.

Maybe Beechan saw this as an opportunity to correct editorial's mistake. Remember, he was told to make Batgirl evil in his first issue of Robin. So maybe he saw the fan reaction, and thought that this was a good time to fix things.

Anyway, I wonder if Batgirl will hang around after the Titans East story, and maybe join the Titans.

As for the Batgirl/Ravager fight, I assume it wasn't shown because it wasn't relevant to the overall story. I mean, the book is Teen Titans, not Batgirl. What was important was having her defeated so that the drug could be administered. I'm sure they'll show a lot more of Batgirl's fight with Deathstroke in the upcoming issues.


As far as I remember the interviews, Geoff did all the plotting, Beechen is just finishing the scripts after Geoff's ideas here.

Although, if Beechen has realised he made a mistake and wants to correct it, fine by me.
But as I said, the last panel sounds like someone still thinks that Cass was raised to be a killer and has to fight the urge to kill like an addiction...

[Sean Whitmore]

But as I said, the last panel sounds like someone still thinks that Cass was raised to be a killer and has to fight the urge to kill like an addiction...

What? No it doesn't. It sounds like the same kind of last panel that dozens of heroes have had, where they've just recovered from something really traumatic and threaten to kill the villain responsible.


SEAN

[Jmacq1]

Yeah, as a poster above noted: I'll wait until the storyline is over (and until the World War 3 special with Batgirl in it) before making any final judgments.

They could kill her off, or have Deathstroke escape with her unconscious body, or any other variety of things to undo this "rescue" before the story is over.

[Captain Jim]

As far as I remember the interviews, Geoff did all the plotting, Beechen is just finishing the scripts after Geoff's ideas here.


I didn't remember that from the interview, but that was my assumption, since that's the typical pattern when one writer is taking over from another.

[Rupertmetal]

DC is basically in the business of giving fans what they want (and moreso, in this case, not giving them what they don't). I'm pretty sure their initial plans were different, but they quickly saw that they weren't what the fans wanted. Making Cass more like Jason Todd (and, it certainly would not surprise me to see her teaming up with him in the future) is something that I think would gain greater acceptance, even if that's not quite what the fans want, either.

I've thought Batgirl should team up with Red Hood for awhile now. Deathstroke trying to control teenagers with drugs is to pedophilish for me haha. I mean, he is an old fart with white hair. Batgirl listening to him and following him is stupid. Red Hood is like the new breed of superhero/villian. He's neither, so if they just can't let Cass be a superhero then she should be like Red Hood, not a drugged, follower villian side kick.

Also, I don't like her in the Teen Titans book. I don't want her to join the team. I want her to get her own book back and make appearences in Batman, Nightwing and Robin. I want them to be the fearsome foursome again haha.

When Batgirl and Robin team up it's great.

And Batgirl and Batman should team just to spend some much needed time with each other. Somehow the DC writers have forgotten that Batman is the glue that holds the four of them together. He needs to check in on his 3 "kids" on a regular basis.

[elias_A]

I was just thinking...

I've seen a lot of people blame DC that Cass was hardly used outside her own title.
But I'm trying to imagine how this could work.

Actually I would say Cass works best in a story when she's not a loner, but interacting with Spoiler, Oracle, or the whole Bat-family. But in a "normal" team like Teen Titans?

Then you have the problem what a non-superpowered character is doing there.
Batman, Dick and Tim have the excuse that they are leaders, detectives, strategists.
Cass is none of that.
Any opponent she could fight Wondergirl should be able to defeat in half a second. Martial artists are hardly needed in a super-team.
(Archers, for some reason, seem always to be needed.)
So can we really blame the writers if they actually were not keen on using her?

I'd prefer if she stays in the Bat-titles anyway.
But I admit I never read JLE, so maybe that might change my mind.

[NotSuper]

While I have no strong feelings about Cassandra Cain, I do think it was a smart idea for DC to listen to the complaints. Turning heroes evil usually doesn't work and it alienates fans of that character.

[Brack360]

I was just thinking...

I've seen a lot of people blame DC that Cass was hardly used outside her own title.
But I'm trying to imagine how this could work.

Actually I would say Cass works best in a story when she's not a loner, but interacting with Spoiler, Oracle, or the whole Bat-family. But in a "normal" team like Teen Titans?

Then you have the problem what a non-superpowered character is doing there.
Batman, Dick and Tim have the excuse that they are leaders, detectives, strategists.
Cass is none of that.
Any opponent she could fight Wondergirl should be able to defeat in half a second. Martial artists are hardly needed in a super-team.
(Archers, for some reason, seem always to be needed.)
So can we really blame the writers if they actually were not keen on using her?

I'd prefer if she stays in the Bat-titles anyway.
But I admit I never read JLE, so maybe that might change my mind.

I always thought Cass would have been a great fit on the Outsiders, moreso than the Teen Titans. The Outsiders are supposed to be heroes from outside of the norm.

I also believe that Cass should have been featured in the Batman books more prominently. It is kind of ridiculous that she did not appear at all in "Hush," given all of the characters who did appear in that storyline but really served no purpose. Cass also made only a few minor cameos in Birds of Prey, and she was living in the same apartment as Oracle at the time.

[Babylon23]

But as I said, the last panel sounds like someone still thinks that Cass was raised to be a killer and has to fight the urge to kill like an addiction...

Really? That's certainly not how I read it. I saw it as a natural response from a woman who's spent months being drugged, brainwashed and abused by a sadist and forced to perform acts that go against her nature. She's just broken free and is angry about what's happened.

[elias_A]

Really? That's certainly not how I read it. I saw it as a natural response from a woman who's spent months being drugged, brainwashed and abused by a sadist and forced to perform acts that go against her nature. She's just broken free and is angry about what's happened.

I guess we'll see.
Hope you're right.

[Babylon23]

I guess we'll see.
Hope you're right.

For the sake of all the Batgirl fans, I hope I'm right too. I know what it's like to have somebody screw up your favourite character.