The Dark Knight Strikes Again!

[yourverysilly]

Okay, the sequel to Dark Knight Returns...should I read it? I mean, the first one is a classic up there with watchmen...(god, I want to read it, just thinking about it!) now the sequel...I thought you guys would be the best people to ask, will it ruin DKR? is it not as good? just a general opinon if its worth it would be much appreciated!

[the goddamn batman]

I enjoyed it for what it is... but it's no DKR.

That said, the art is completely different. Lynn's coloring is both awesome at times, and vomit enducing at other times. Frank's art is intended to be rather blocky and ugly, but some people seem to hate it. I didn't mind.

I think it's fun. You'll have to decide for yourself what you think. Try borrowing it or getting it from the library first.

[Alan2099]

I thought it was pretty horrible.

[Captain Jim]

I was moderater on this forum when it first came out and I can tell you that people's opinions were greatly divided. Generally speaking, readers either loved it or really, really hated it. One of the longest threads to appear at CBR that whole year debated this topic. (It was nominated for the "thread that would not die" category in the annual Corrie Awards that year.)

[rick]

Do not expect it to be a sequel to the original Dark Knight in any real way.

However, I thought it was really, really good, with some great character bits from all sorts of members of the DC Universe.

[Captain Jim]

Do not expect it to be a sequel to the original Dark Knight in any real way.

However, I thought it was really, really good, with some great character bits from all sorts of members of the DC Universe.

Yeah, I think you were one of the posters in that incredibly long thread I mentioned, weren't you Rick? ;)

[annihilator]

it wasn't a masterpiece...

but it was entertaining, which is what comics are supposed to do. So yes I think you should read it.

[GoGo Yubari]

I thought it was fairly horrible outside of a few character bits here and there (Plastic Man versus Elongated Man, for example). The ending in particular is amazingly bad.

[dancj]

It's great fun, but it's a balls out over the top comedy - nothing like TDKR.

[Joe Rice]

It's great fun, but it's a balls out over the top comedy - nothing like TDKR.

Yeah. I actually quite prefer it to TDKR. It's a blast.

[Babylon23]

I loved it, but there's a lot of animosity around towards the series. If you do read it, try to look at it on it's own merits rather than comparing it to the original. It's a very different story to the original, and Miller's storytelling techniques are completely different.

[Violently Apathetic]

I think it's one of those books that fails to be as clever as it intended to be, but it's still a 'fun' way to spend an hour or so.

[niall mc cann]

I think it's one of those books that fails to be as clever as it intended to be, but it's still a 'fun' way to spend an hour or so.

It's certainly not as clever as it thinks it is...

I didn't enjoy it at all. I could just about handle the art, but the story's stupid too. There isn't one, really. That's the genius of it, of course...:rolleyes:

[Ryan Day]

It's a fun book. It picks up and amplifies a lot of the stuff that people tend to forget when talking about DKR - the political commentary and social satire. It's much more over-the-top, almost Sin City calibre storytelling. I think Miller made it too big, made Batman too flawless, but it almost works.

If you want a copy of DKR, don't read it. If you want to read it completely straight, without a sense of humour, don't read it.

If you want a thematic followup by a creator who changed a lot in the 15-odd years between projects, it's worth a read. It'll never rank in my top-ten list or anything, but I certainly don't regret buying it.

[Stressfactor]

Whereas DKR was a social and comic book commentary, DKR 2 was much more a satire on the media and our obsession with it. The problem is that Miller's satire is sometimes so over the top and the story sometimes so bombastic that the point gets lost.

[dark knight49]

Could you really read that in an hour? I know it would probably take me 2.

[dark knight49]

I just bought the Dark Knight Strikes Again, and I think that its art is awfully odd, but I'll just have to see. By the way, the Kinks are pretty awesome.

[mattx110]

nobody show frank miller this post, but from now on i want all my comics to look like they were done in MSpaint.:D

[the goddamn batman]

Don't worry, Frank is not checking message boards.

[niall mc cann]

I just bought the Dark Knight Strikes Again, and I think that its art is awfully odd, but I'll just have to see. By the way, the Kinks are pretty awesome.

Hey hey!

They are!:D

[rick]

Hey hey!

They are!:D

Not meaning to jump off topic for too long, but I picked up the live, Kinks: To The Bone collection just today and am playing it as I type this and man is it good.

[niall mc cann]

Not meaning to jump off topic for too long, but I picked up the live, Kinks: To The Bone collection just today and am playing it as I type this and man is it good.

I'll check it out!

[/end drift]

[Lurch]

TDKSA is weird one, that's for sure. I remember I hated it when it came out, because TDKR is so beloved. It was kind of like Miller was taking a piss on something sacred. Then I realized that it was his own work, and it's kind of silly to think that he's not allowed to do that.

Regardless, I read it again just a few weeks ago, and it's great fun from cover to cover. I particularly like the characterization of Superman, and the attitude that most of the other heroes have toward him.

[Punch]

I hated it when I read it for the first time also. But I kept finding myself re-reading it. Now I love it, though I still think that the art and especially the coloring needs some work.

[davids]

superman and Wonderwoman having earth skaking, tidal wave causing ship sinking super sex....That is pretty kinky and funny. Didn't like what they did to Dick Grayson and the end was pretty bad. Bats hates Clarks guts. but when Bruce is falling to his death the boyscout saves his ass and Bruce only say's, "What kept you?" Knowing full well he would be there for him!:evilsmile

[CaptainAwesome]

I have not read DKR 2 in a very long time, but the more I read of Miller's more recent stuff, the more I think he is satirizing himself, or at least the comic's era in which he was most popular. Particularly with All-Star Batman, but to an extent with DKR 2, he seems to be poking fun at the super-seriousness of comics that he helped originate. I think DKR 2 is more like Animal Man-era Morrison than DKR-era Miller. I think that his new approach is so far out of left field that many of his own die hard fan's dont get it. They are so familiar with the Miller that they know and love that they kind of miss the satire now. I'm by no means saying it is over their heads, just that they are so attached to the early work that its hard to see something so new and so different coming from the same writer. Of course, DKR 2 wasnt the masterpeice that was DKR, but I think it gets a worse rap than it deserves.

[niall mc cann]

Regardless, I read it again just a few weeks ago, and it's great fun from cover to cover. I particularly like the characterization of Superman, and the attitude that most of the other heroes have toward him.

I really disliked the characterisation of the other characters... they were all idiots! Especially Superman!

the earth's been conquered by aliens and megalomaniacs and not one of them thinks of doing anything until batman comes up with the wild, out-of-left-field concept of fighting back! Wowee! What an idea! He must have sat up all night coming up with that one!

[Lurch]

I really disliked the characterisation of the other characters... they were all idiots! Especially Superman!

the earth's been conquered by aliens and megalomaniacs and not one of them thinks of doing anything until batman comes up with the wild, out-of-left-field concept of fighting back! Wowee! What an idea! He must have sat up all night coming up with that one!

Well, to be fair the plan wasn't that simple. Actually, Batman changed tactics midway and went with the plan Carrie Kelly had to capture the zeitgeist and start a revolution. And I think that Miller intentionally made the "Superist" of the heroes out to be dolts. For me it just seemed natural that they would be out of touch in that way, because they're not really human, and they're too powerful. Relying on that instead of their brains. Plus Superman had to be kind of an idiot in order for Miller to write all those great scenes where "his" Batman acts all imperious, arrogant and indignant toward him.

You reckon Miller hates Superman?

[mattx110]

i think he made a point of these superpeople having a non-interference thing going on. lex was human, and humans were not revolting.

they didn't feel they had enough to go on to take out the government until a human bruce went "this is retarded, we used to stand for something"

the superheroes were so used to be being played and used and manipulated, they forgot they could do so much damage.

[Darth Joker]

I like both, but I perfer the Dark Knight Returns, largely for its no-holds-barred political commentary, and handling of the Batman/Joker dynamic. I also liked the female Robin character, and how she related to Batman.

I liked Wonder Woman's inclusion, and use (for the most part), in the Dark Knight Strikes Again.

Superman, though... man, the poor guy gets crapped on *big time* in both books.

Batman should never fear Superman. Batman should be confidant that, given reasonable preperation time and his typical resources, that he can give Superman a good fight, and *maybe* even win. Having Batman dominant in his fights with Superman in the two books makes sense since, after all, these are Batman's books.

However, Batman should respect Superman. DKR/DKSA Batman has no respect *at all* for Superman, and actually seems to hate Clark's guts.

I really didn't like the portrayal of the Superman/Batman relationship here. I think that you can go too far the other way - I've read some comics where the two characters seem too close given their very different personalities and styles - but each one should have much respect for the other one.

[Gaspard]

I've grown to love it also, DKR is definitely better in many ways, but I feel DKSA has some unique elements to it and I really like the story, only thing missing really is Aquaman! I had a thread on this book a while ago here with polls and stuff if you find it I think there will be some information on people's views about the book.

Oh and since I've been away from the bat books for a while, does anyone know when the next All-Star is coming, I know it's been a long time but is there a date to look forward to?

[Lester C.]

It's very good but expect Frank Miller art and storytelling telling style to reflect Sin City more than Daredevil. In other words instead of drawing ascetically pleasing characters Frank draws his characters and environment to reflect the dark and gritty mood of the story.

[ZacharyLovesYou]

I respect DKR2. I didn't like it very much, but I respect that Frank Miller made it.

For me... I dunno, it was just way too much of a departure from DKR. Just didn't feel right.

[niall mc cann]

Well, to be fair the plan wasn't that simple. Actually, Batman changed tactics midway and went with the plan Carrie Kelly had to capture the zeitgeist and start a revolution.

Yeah, but the tactics are incedental to the will, for me. Everybody seemed to be just sitting around, scuffing their heels until Batman said, "Hey, why don't we try to change it?".

And I think that Miller intentionally made the "Superist" of the heroes out to be dolts.

I have no doubt it didn't spill onto the page by accident, appearances occasionally to the contrary.

For me it just seemed natural that they would be out of touch in that way, because they're not really human, and they're too powerful. Relying on that instead of their brains.

In this vision of the DCU, that seems a reasonable reading of the situation.

Plus Superman had to be kind of an idiot in order for Miller to write all those great scenes where "his" Batman acts all imperious, arrogant and indignant toward him.

That i just don't agree with. Have you ever heard the saying "never argue with a fool, people won't be able to tell the difference"?

To me, it wasn't all that impressive that bats could act that way towards a guy as unmotivated, cowardly, self-pitying and (frankly) stupid as DKSA's Superman. The very fact that Bats seems to be almost fixated on this guy as being almost his shadow-self makes Bats seem kind of petty and stupid by association. To me, anyway.

I think there would have been a greater emotional core to the story if Bats was not the smartest guy in a gang of idiots, but the smartest guy in a gang of people of at least average intelligence.

You reckon Miller hates Superman?

I don't know. It's probably not important one way or the other. He repeatedly writes the guy as a guest star, so i suppose he must have some affection for the character.

In truth, i have a personal dislike for the way Miller wrote superman in DKSA, because i love the character and it sometimes gets me down that people insist on portraying him as a weepy juggernaut with no personality.

It doesn't help that his appearance in DKR was phenomonal - i always thought the final showdown was genuinely heartbreaking.

That's neither here nor there, though. Just a personal preference.

[literally exaggerated]

Its Satire. at the time I can remember loathing it, once I got older and reread it I liked it quite a bit more.

I imagine that, if it ever gets completed, All-star Batman and Robin will be read much the same way. 5 or 10 years down the line everyone will go, "oh, well, since it was just a big joke anyway, in that context its okay." But at the time of publication people want the straightforward action story that takes the characters seriously, and DKSA and ASB&R definitely don't do that.

[Lurch]

Its Satire. at the time I can remember loathing it, once I got older and reread it I liked it quite a bit more.

I imagine that, if it ever gets completed, All-star Batman and Robin will be read much the same way. 5 or 10 years down the line everyone will go, "oh, well, since it was just a big joke anyway, in that context its okay." But at the time of publication people want the straightforward action story that takes the characters seriously, and DKSA and ASB&R definitely don't do that.

Funny. I was reading niall's post and thinking that the first two word of my reply were going to be, "It's satire." Because in that context all those things that bug him so much seem to work. (Or at the very least they don't seem to be sticking points, because anything other than satire is the wrong frame of reference to use.) If you were to watch SNL Weekend Update and critique it as if it were an actual news program, chances are it wouldn't fare too well.

[yourverysilly]

don't think I'll bother reading it. Although I have problems with DKR, it is one of the greatest batman storys and greatest comic books of all time. WOuldn't really like its universe spoiled, every time I got to the end of DKR, when bruce syas "this will be a good life...good enough". I'll always think "yeah. and THEN came the shitty follow up.
Know what I mean?
cheers for the interest anyway!!!!

[Punch]

In truth, i have a personal dislike for the way Miller wrote superman in DKSA, because i love the character and it sometimes gets me down that people insist on portraying him as a weepy juggernaut with no personality.


Hmm I don't know. I thought that the reason that Superman was acting all cowardly was because of Kandor. At the end he says "what will we do with our planet" to Kara, which made me think we had the old Superman back(that and WW's umm "therapy").

I was interested to see how Miller handles the beginnings of the Batman/Superman relationship in All-Star. Hopefully it won't be the same old thing, because even as a huge FM fan, the idea that Batman can beat Superman on a constant basis is getting old.

[niall mc cann]

Its Satire. at the time I can remember loathing it, once I got older and reread it I liked it quite a bit more.



Sure, it was satire. I don't think you can read it and miss that. It's absolutely sledgehammer, and i didn't see that it was saying anything interesting or new. It's a list of by-now-cliched pot-shots at mass media and our information culture. The ideas in it are seventy years old by now, at least.

I understand that its satire. My problem is that it's bad satire.

Hmm I don't know. I thought that the reason that Superman was acting all cowardly was because of Kandor. At the end he says "what will we do with our planet" to Kara, which made me think we had the old Superman back(that and WW's umm "therapy").

The Kandor thing was certainly the reason he wasn't taking the fight to Luthor and Brainiac, but i will never forget the implied fanfare where batman's big plan is "we'll rescue Kandor!". Surely someone could have thought of that brilliant notion a decade before by then?

It certainly hadn't occurred to Supes until Bats suggested it.

I was interested to see how Miller handles the beginnings of the Batman/Superman relationship in All-Star. Hopefully it won't be the same old thing, because even as a huge FM fan, the idea that Batman can beat Superman on a constant basis is getting old.

I don't waste a lot of time worrying about who wins what fight... I love the final showdown in DKR, for example, because i can see both men's points of view. Each one is a fiercely committed, honourable man who, due to force of circumstances and the moral weakness of others finds himself having to fight the other, or die. It is rightly one of the most iconic and heartbreaking moments in comics.

In DKSA, there's no moment like that. there's nothing to touch it.

[the goddamn batman]

The Kandor thing was certainly the reason he wasn't taking the fight to Luthor and Brainiac, but i will never forget the implied fanfare where batman's big plan is "we'll rescue Kandor!". Surely someone could have thought of that brilliant notion a decade before by then?

It certainly hadn't occurred to Supes until Bats suggested it.

It wasn't that he couldn't or even didn't think of it. It was that he didn't break out the Atom, or have a plan where Lara surrenders to Braniac.

Also, I seem to remember Frank saying at some point, that if it were a Superman book, he'd play Batman as the lesser character. Not that DKSA was so uch of a Batman book as it was a Justice League book, but you get the idea.

Which leads us right to the portrayal of Batman in All Star, being that it's Robin's story. And Robin is played about a straight as it gets.

[niall mc cann]

It wasn't that he couldn't or even didn't think of it. It was that he didn't break out the Atom, or have a plan where Lara surrenders to Braniac.

I don't understand what you're saying there; it wasn't that superman couldn't or didn't think of it... it's just that he didn't think of it.

The fact is, Superman, The Atom, The Flash, The Green Lantern and Wonder Woman all submitted themselves to the control of a Supervillain. Right up until the point that Batman suggests fighting back, at which point they all decided "Oh, yeah. Okay."

I get it hard to see these guys as heroic, brave or terribly bright in that context. Now, if there's some sort of commentary there that i just don't get, I'm open to someone explaining it to me. "Everyones a coward but Batman", maybe. I don't know. I don't get it.


Also, I seem to remember Frank saying at some point, that if it were a Superman book, he'd play Batman as the lesser character. Not that DKSA was so uch of a Batman book as it was a Justice League book, but you get the idea.

I really don't.

I'm sorry if i confused things in my previous post by mentioning that i didn't like Miller's vision of Superman; that was just an aside, a personal preference that i mentioned in relation to a specific question about Miller's attitude to the character.

I don't accept that if told from Superman's point of view DKSA would make Supes seem clever and brave. I don't believe it would make The Atom seem that way or GL or Wonder Woman or anyone, because they all sold out to murderous (doesn't Lex explicitly state he's planning to kill five billion people at one point?) supervillains until Batman decided to try fighting back. I have a hard time regarding those people as anything but cheap sellouts, even at the end of the book.

Simply put; if Hal could always have done what he did at the denoument, why in god's name did he have to sit and wait for Bruce's permission?

[dancj]

The fact is, Superman, The Atom, The Flash, The Green Lantern and Wonder Woman all submitted themselves to the control of a Supervillain. Right up until the point that Batman suggests fighting back, at which point they all decided "Oh, yeah. Okay."
The way I saw it was more along the lines of Superman deciding he would save more lives in this instance by not fighting back - but then Batman say's "I'm fighting back with or without you" which kind of forced Superman's hand.

T=I don't accept that if told from Superman's point of view DKSA would make Supes seem clever and brave.
I think what Miller was saying was that if he was writing a Superman story it would be one that placed Supes in a more positive light - not that he'd write exactly the same story from a different point of view

[niall mc cann]

The way I saw it was more along the lines of Superman deciding he would save more lives in this instance by not fighting back - but then Batman say's "I'm fighting back with or without you" which kind of forced Superman's hand.

He also sat and watched Brainiac nightly torture and murder the population of Kandor by degrees. At what point in his accounting was it going to become legitimate to oppose this? And as far as The Flash goes; how long was he going to run in the pinwheel before he tried to rescue Iris from Luthor's clutches? For some reason, nobody was much bothered about Luthor having conquered the planet until Bats decided something should be done.

I'm open to the idea that there's some satirical commentary inherent in the situation that i'm just not getting. I don't see it. What, exactly, is Miller trying to say?

I think what Miller was saying was that if he was writing a Superman story it would be one that placed Supes in a more positive light - not that he'd write exactly the same story from a different point of view

Ah, understood. Then i could complain about how he wrote batman, i suppose.;)

[davids]

Think about it, You have superman to deal with but also his daughter lara, his first cousin kara living in kandor [as a formar hostage in kandor and will soon come out,] His other son or daughter [Wonder woman is pregnant in the series] queen Diana [wonder woman] and her nation of amazon warriors. That is a lot of power to go up against and when Clarks asks his first born, "What should we do with our world?" Perhaps he really means it!

[angeltread]

dkr=genius and legendary
dksb=horseshit

thats my opinion and im sticking to it.

[geordiesteve]

Okay, the sequel to Dark Knight Returns...should I read it? I mean, the first one is a classic up there with watchmen...(god, I want to read it, just thinking about it!) now the sequel...I thought you guys would be the best people to ask, will it ruin DKR? is it not as good? just a general opinon if its worth it would be much appreciated!

It's awful. Really, really REALLY, awful. Worst and most unnecessary sequel I've ever seen. If you read this it will ruin DKR.

[NotSuper]

I thought the story fell flat on its face after the first issue (which was decent). From there, it only got worse.