was the joker always a mass murderer?

[sgt.candy]

years ago i read since he first appeared he was just a goof who would try to outsmart bats and in the 70's he was turned into a killer

now im hearing that he actually was just as crazy then as he is now but then was toned down

what really happened?

[jamal Igle]

In the Jokers first apperance (Batman #1, Spring 1940) the Joker poisoned Millionaire Henry Claridgewith Joker Venom and stole the Claridge diamond.The Joker started out as a psychotic killer and was toned down during the 50's and 60's because of the McCarthy hearings, which kick started the Comics Code Authority. The CCA was an oversite commiteee formed by the industry. All comic book companies used to submit their work to them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_Code_Authority

The Code

The CCA code was based upon the largely unenforced code drafted by the Association of Comics Magazine Publishers in 1948, which in turn was modeled loosely after the 1930 Hollywood Production Code. The CCA, however, imposed many more restrictions than its predecessor.
Like the previous code, the CCA prohibited the presentation of "policemen, judges, government officials, and respected institutions ... in such a way as to create disrespect for established authority." But it added the requirements that "in every instance good shall triumph over evil" and discouraged "instances of law enforcement officers dying as a result of a criminal's activities." Specific restrictions were placed on the portrayal of kidnapping and concealed weapons.
Depictions of "excessive violence" were forbidden, as were "lurid, unsavory, gruesome illustrations." Vampires, werewolves, ghouls and zombies could not be portrayed. In addition, comics could not use the words "horror" or "terror" in their titles. The use of the word "crime" was subject to numerous restrictions.
Where the previous code had condemned the publication of "sexy, wanton comics," the CCA was much more precise: Depictions of "sex perversion," "sexual abnormalities," and "illicit sex relations" as well as seduction, rape, sadism, and masochism were specifically forbidden. In words echoing the Hollywood Production Code, love stories were enjoined to emphasize the "sanctity of marriage" and those portraying scenes of passion were advised to avoid stimulating "lower and baser emotions."

The code started to change in the early 70's when the joker was reintroduced in Batman# 251 (1973), he returned to his old psychotic ways.

[marshal99]

50-60s was the silly sci-fi era for batman where he would go up against space aliens and have all kind of stupid adventures. The "starman" of 1951 appeared just one time during that era and surprisingly was brought back by James Robinson and incorporated into the starman timeline.

[Lurch]

Yeah, the Joker from the TV show, and from the comics at that same time was the first exposure I had to the character. (Until the early seventies when we got some great golden age stuff in those 100 page super spectaculars.) So I pretty much considered the Joker a buffoon until TDKR. That's when I really began to understand the whole Batman mythos and the doppleganger thing that's going on between Batman and the Joker. It's also when I realized what a real monster he could be in the hands of a good writer.

[rick]

Actually Batman was seriously toned down during the 1940's by DC comics themselves, so that by 1943 the Joker wasn't killing anyone and was just robbing banks and being the goof he would be for ther next 30 years.

Also the crackdown on comics in the 1950's was because of Sen. Estes Kefauver's committe on Juevenile Deliquency and not anything connected to the McCarthy witch hunt.

[Lurch]

Weren't those hearings a direct result of Seduction of the Innocent and Werthiem's campaign? I remember he did a study on habitual offenders and found that a large percentage of them read comics, and using backwards logic decided that comics were the reason for said offenses. Not so different than people today blaming TV, Film, and video games.

[sgt.candy]

from the wikipedia article

In his initial dozen or so appearances, starting with Batman #1 (1940), the Joker was a straightforward spree killer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spree_killer)/mass murderer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_murder), with a bizarre appearance modeled after the symbol of the Joker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joker) known from playing cards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playing_cards). It is of note that in his second appearance ("The Joker Returns", also in Batman #1), the Joker was actually slated to be killed off, with the final page detailing the villain accidentally stabbing himself, lying dead as Batman and Robin run off into the night. DC editor Whitney Ellsworth thought the Joker was too good a character to kill off, suggesting that he be spared. A hastily drawn panel, calculated to imply that the Joker was still alive, was subsequently added to the comic.

While the Joker was back, he was decidedly less deadly than previous engagements. At this point, the editors decided that only one-shot villains should commit murder, so as to not make Batman look impotent in his inability to punish such recurring foes as the Joker or the Penguin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penguin_%28comics%29). As the Batman comics softened their tone, the Joker shifted towards a harmless, cackling nuisance, rather than a trigger-happy madman. He quickly became the most popular villain and was used frequently during the Golden Age of Comic Books (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age_of_Comic_Books). The use of the character lessened somewhat by the late 1950s, and disappeared almost entirely when Julius Schwartz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Schwartz) took over editorship of the Batman comics in 1964.

[Captain Jim]

^^^

There's nothing like somebody who answers their own question. ;)

But yeah, the wikipedia article is pretty accurate there, as is rick in his post. The Joker was only a crazy killer for a relatively short time at the very beginning. It had nothing to do with the 50's-60's era, Seduction of the Innocent, the TV show, or anything else.

[Captain Jim]

from the wikipedia article

The use of the character lessened somewhat by the late 1950s, and disappeared almost entirely when Julius Schwartz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Schwartz) took over editorship of the Batman comics in 1964.

I *do* take issue with some of this, though. At the very least, it's misleading. The use of *all* of the classic villains lessened during the late 1950's. Penguin, Catwoman and Two-Face disappeared entirely. The Joker is the only one who stayed around at all. There were, however, a lot of one-shot, throwaway villains.

Again, when Julius Schwartz took over Batman in 1964, he had Batman spend most of his time fighting ordinary criminals (not such a bad thing), but the Joker was still around. I don't think it's accurate to say he "disappeared almost entirely."

Incidentally, it was also Schwartz who decided to return the Joker to his original design as a crazy killer in the early 1970's, during the time when Robin went away to college and Batman returned to his "creature of the night" persona.

[rick]

Weren't those hearings a direct result of Seduction of the Innocent and Werthiem's campaign? I remember he did a study on habitual offenders and found that a large percentage of them read comics, and using backwards logic decided that comics were the reason for said offenses. Not so different than people today blaming TV, Film, and video games.


The appearance of EC publisher Max Gaines before the Kefauver Commission wasn't directly connected to the book or Wertham.

However, certainly the huge, and it was huge, popularity of Seduction helped set the stage for the hostile reception Max received before the Congress.

Still, although the committee did huff and puff about the evil of comicbooks, they quickly moved on to other matters leaving the new industry created comic code to deal with riff raff like Gaines and his EC line of comics.

[Sean Walsh]

The appearance of EC publisher Max Gaines before the Kefauver Commission wasn't directly connected to the book or Wertham.

However, certainly the huge, and it was huge, popularity of Seduction helped set the stage for the hostile reception Max received before the Congress.

Still, although the committee did huff and puff about the evil of comicbooks, they quickly moved on to other matters leaving the new industry created comic code to deal with riff raff like Gaines and his EC line of comics.

That was Bill Gaines (Max's son) who went before the commission. Max died in 1947 or so; the stuff with Congress was in 1954. And Bill certainly didn't do anything to calm Congress' nerves; he got quite a notoriety from his testimony.

The next year, EC Comics was out of business; so the Comics Code either didn't get the job done in time...or they got it done right off the bat. What Gaines said certainly didn't help that side of the business.

[rick]

That was Bill Gaines (Max's son) who went before the commission. Max died in 1947 or so; the stuff with Congress was in 1954. And Bill certainly didn't do anything to calm Congress' nerves; he got quite a notoriety from his testimony.

The next year, EC Comics was out of business; so the Comics Code either didn't get the job done in time...or they got it done right off the bat. What Gaines said certainly didn't help that side of the business.


I can't believe that I wrote Max instead of Bill.

Damm, the mind is just slipping.

[chrismileslord]

^^^

There's nothing like somebody who answers their own question. ;)

But yeah, the wikipedia article is pretty accurate there, as is rick in his post. The Joker was only a crazy killer for a relatively short time at the very beginning. It had nothing to do with the 50's-60's era, Seduction of the Innocent, the TV show, or anything else.

Word........

[sgt.candy]

^^^

There's nothing like somebody who answers their own question. ;)

But yeah, the wikipedia article is pretty accurate there, as is rick in his post. The Joker was only a crazy killer for a relatively short time at the very beginning. It had nothing to do with the 50's-60's era, Seduction of the Innocent, the TV show, or anything else.
its from a wiki tho. i dont know if those can be trusted

[mattx110]

That was Bill Gaines (Max's son) who went before the commission. Max died in 1947 or so; the stuff with Congress was in 1954. And Bill certainly didn't do anything to calm Congress' nerves; he got quite a notoriety from his testimony.

The next year, EC Comics was out of business; so the Comics Code either didn't get the job done in time...or they got it done right off the bat. What Gaines said certainly didn't help that side of the business.

paraphrased but in quotation marks.
"this is your cover of a severed head, is this in good taste?"
"yes (details how it could be worse)"
"you've got blood coming out of the mouth."
"a little."

that man is my hero.