Is Nightwing being held back by DC?

[Lauren_Guerra]

Does anyone think DC is intentionally not letting Nightwing rise up to the status of a A list hero cause that will take away from Batman? It seems to me that Nightwing should be a lot further a long as a hero than what I see being portrayed in his stories. Does Batman have to die or retire in order for DC to take Nightwing more seriously as a hero?

[shaxper]

I don't think so.

Most of DC's heroes are relatively iconic. They're expected to be the best of the best and to rarely (if ever) make mistakes. Batman is definitely one of those heroes.

Nightwing isn't supposed to be perfect though. His characterization comes out best when he struggles - both with himself and with external obstacles. He's the guy who knows enough to realize he's more than an ex-side kick, but has no idea who he is or what he's doing beyond that. I think that quality makes him very easy to relate to and care about. It's the struggle to be more than he is that makes him interesting. If he simply equalled or surpassed Batman, he'd be a much hollower character in my opinion.

[Mia]

I don't think so.

Most of DC's heroes are relatively iconic. They're expected to be the best of the best and to rarely (if ever) make mistakes. Batman is definitely one of those heroes.

Nightwing isn't supposed to be perfect though. His characterization comes out best when he struggles - both with himself and with external obstacles. He's the guy who knows enough to realize he's more than an ex-side kick, but has no idea who he is or what he's doing beyond that. I think that quality makes him very easy to relate to and care about. It's the struggle to be more than he is that makes him interesting. If he simply equalled or surpassed Batman, he'd be a much hollower character in my opinion.


I completely agree. I came to the character via Chuck Dixon's run on his book. And for me Nightwing always came across as a more confident and less insecure version of Spiderman.

I used to think that I liked NW because he was cute and non threatening. But I think the real reason I like the character is because he's human. Yes he's popular and a great athlete and fighter. But fundamentally he's just a regular guy, and someone I can relate to.

I've heard many people say that NW should be portrayed as being much better because he was trained by Batman. But that reasoning has always runng hollow for me. Just because someone was taught/trained by someone who was exceptional does not mean that their skills automatically translates
There are different things to be taken into consideration such as skill set, intelligence and drive.

I was taught by some of the greatest mathematician around in high school. And I can still only do rudementary math.

[shaxper]

I've heard many people say that NW should be portrayed as being much better because he was trained by Batman. But that reasoning has always runng hollow for me. Just because someone was taught/trained by someone who was exceptional does not mean that their skills automatically translates
There are different things to be taken into consideration such as skill set, intelligence and drive.

I think most of those skills did translate, though being taught by the best of the best has also given Dick an impossible measuring stick to compare against himself. Batman learned from a variety of teachers and combined all of that knowledge to create his own path that surpassed all of theirs. Nightwing was taught by one perfect teacher and followed the same path. There's nothing new for him to add; no way to improve upon what he was given. As a result, Nightwing's worst enemy is his own belief that he can never surpass Batman; a lingering self doubt that makes him so endearing and easy to relate to.

Rock on, Mia!

[Lester C.]

Also his last two writers that had the character for more than than one year focused on Dick's flaws and Dick overcoming them.

[Mia]

I think most of those skills did translate, though being taught by the best of the best has also given Dick an impossible measuring stick to compare against himself. Batman learned from a variety of teachers and combined all of that knowledge to create his own path that surpassed all of theirs. Nightwing was taught by one perfect teacher and followed the same path. There's nothing new for him to add; no way to improve upon what he was given. As a result, Nightwing's worst enemy is his own belief that he can never surpass Batman; a lingering self doubt that makes him so endearing and easy to relate to.

Hmmm……I don’t think that Dick is a neurotic and insecure as you seem to be implying.

From my reading of the characters. There are two main differences between Batman and Nightwing.

1. Batman’s a genius, Dick isn’t. Not to say that Dick lacks intelligence, I don’t think that he’s super smart like Batman, Mr. Terrific or some of the other super brains in the DCU.
2. Dick is not as driven and obessed as Bruce to be ‘perfect’.



Personally from what I have read of Nightwing. He knows that ‘Good enough, is good enough.’. Yes he will try or do his best. But if it does not work out. Then he’ll try again next time. Dick won’t brood and beat himself up because he fell short of the mark. Like I mentioned above, I came to the character via Chuck Dixon who portrayed Dick as confident and sure of himself. He was good but in a different way from Batman.





Rock on, Mia!

You too shaxper!:)

[Darth Joker]

Hmmm……I don’t think that Dick is a neurotic and insecure as you seem to be implying.

From my reading of the characters. There are two main differences between Batman and Nightwing.

1. Batman’s a genius, Dick isn’t. Not to say that Dick lacks intelligence, I don’t think that he’s super smart like Batman, Mr. Terrific or some of the other super brains in the DCU.
2. Dick is not as driven and obessed as Bruce to be ‘perfect’.



Personally from what I have read of Nightwing. He knows that ‘Good enough, is good enough.’. Yes he will try or do his best. But if it does not work out. Then he’ll try again next time. Dick won’t brood and beat himself up because he fell short of the mark. Like I mentioned above, I came to the character via Chuck Dixon who portrayed Dick as confident and sure of himself. He was good but in a different way from Batman.



I agree.

Nightwing is a great character, I think. A more down-to-Earth (and hence relatable) version of current comic book Batman.

I think that he works very well as the leader of any young DC hero team.

[TROUBLEZ]

Does anyone thing DC is intentionally not letting Nightwing rise up to the status of a A list hero cause that will take away from Batman? It seems to me that Nightwing should be a lot further a long as a hero than what I see being portrayed in his stories. Does Batman have to die or retire in order for DC to take Nightwing more seriously as a hero?


I think it's just because DC is stingy with their creative teams. They don't want to put a Grant Morrison or Ethan Van Scriver on Nightwing because it might not be as high profile and therefore it might not sell as well as putting them on already popular titles like Superman or even Green Lantern. They see, that so far he doesn't garner enough interest with sales to be marketable character, so why give him the spotlight?

The only character I think DC might actually be holding back on is Captain Marvel. In my opinion, this is a comics character who should have the best creative teams working on a title for him and yet some how we still haven't had a truely great modern age run for him.

[wes_rk]

I dothink he is being held back by DC. I don't think DC does it intentionally, but I do think he could play a bigger role. That being said, sometimes him not being at his fullest is what makes him great. You know he'll succeed but he won't do it as Batman would, he will ask for help when needed and unlike Batman, he is Dick first and Nightwing second. Batman is my favorite chacarter, but Nightwing is my sentimental favorite. As I see it right now, he is the human (ie. non powered) equivalent to Superman. Nightwing is that good, both as Nightwing and as Dick Grayson, just a great guy overall.

[colossus34]

This is a joke thread right?!? OF COURSE Nightwing is being held back by DC!!! It's an utter shame that a character with so much inherent likabliity, and at the early buzz of his popularity in the 90's was cool / relatable / exciting / thrilling and fun to read all at the same time. He was already so popular of a DC legacy character that anyone could have written his stories and fans would have flocked to buy them.

He was an uber-confident, swashbuckling fighter and featured as the forefront of DC's next great wave of superheros. There were comparisons to him being DC's Daredevil or Cap America property. Hell, Art Thilbert even had an entire mini series lined up where Nightwing basically single handedly saves planet Earth from an Alien threat, saves the life of Starfire and wows most of the DCU. How times have changed!!!

If DC wants to seriously make Grayson a big deal they need to take bold steps. He's supposed to be the leader of the next era of super hero's but he's caught in limbo. Enough with the him finding himself and him being a nomad trying to find a city to call home. DC needs to invest in him the way Marvel has done for Dardevil, Tony Stark etc. He's hardly redundant. He can be great if given the chance. Make him a great martial artist with all the natural skills and talents he was born with, an ultimate crime-fighter trained by the best, a brilliant strategist and tactician who can see puzzles and solve crimes like no one else can(Who is Donna Troy?). He should have a dangerous, lethal and interesting rouges gallery and a supporting cast we can love. Return him into the confident, relatable, slightly-cocky but always smiling-joking and full of positive energy superhero that he was before Devin-hoe started writing him. .

They need to do something - an event, a story where he's made into a big deal. They need to MAKE him Batman's clear equal as a crime-fighter and superhero--just like they did to Waly West, Kyle Rynor and every other legacy character--he needs to be allowed to reach his full potential.

[Captain Jim]

Does anyone think DC is intentionally not letting Nightwing rise up to the status of a A list hero cause that will take away from Batman?

The answer to that is a definite "sort of." Didio has pretty much admitted to being unimpressed by Nightwing and he planned to have Dick Grayson killed off in Infinite Crisis. Fortunately, the negative feedback from fans kept that from happening, but now DC doesn't seem to know what to do with him. Wolfman's take is not bad, but there is so much damage control to be done, one questions how much progress he can make in a finite 12-issue run. And I'm still worrying about who they might replace him with and what they might do.

[NotSuper]

One unexplored aspect of Dick is the fact that he mastered his martial arts and detective skills much faster than Bruce. In essence, Dick at thirteen was superior to Bruce at thirteen in both fighting and deduction. Furthermore, Dick fought psychos, super-humans, and even aliens while in his teens. Bruce was still learning back then. Dick seems to be better at learning and adapting than Bruce. You could argue that Tim is the same way.

[joint venture]

Tim is Nightwing and Batman fused into one, what he has lived, what he has learned and who he wants to be set him apart in the DCU. A plus- To become who he will be he has had and will always have the whole "Bat Family" support, unlike Bruce or Richard.

But Dick, you could say he is custom built by Batman. It wouldn't surprise me to know one day that Dick Grayson has fallen right where Batman needed him to be, for the greater common good or whatever. Nightwing is the "next step" in evolution, the first of a younger generation of sidekicks and self-made heroes to become whole on his own.

Dick Grayson is a better athlete(since birth), and a way better leader, strategist and deductionist. It's not that he's dumb at all, it's just that he is not such a malicious planner as the Batman is. He's a leader, a tactician and a ruthless warrior. But he expects people to change for the better, the character believes in opportunities.

That's why he makes mistakes and the Batman doesn't.


Yeah, lame writers, bad artists and mediocre roles. He's been held back a bit. But his "father" is writing him now, we shall see what comes out of this.

[wes_rk]

DC needs to put Nightwing in the JSA or JLA. They need him as the leader of an A-team. Outsiders is ok, but at some point he needs to step into the light.

Actually you know what, take Batman off the JLA and put Nightwing in it. The book would probably lose a few readers, but Batman can still appear every once in a while, helping the league figure stuff out, but just every few issues. Have Nightwing be the tactical leader of the team. I've liked the few times Nightwing has fought along side with Superman.

[chrismileslord]

Does anyone think DC is intentionally not letting Nightwing rise up to the status of a A list hero cause that will take away from Batman? It seems to me that Nightwing should be a lot further a long as a hero than what I see being portrayed in his stories. Does Batman have to die or retire in order for DC to take Nightwing more seriously as a hero?

I think the exact same thing. Nightwing is by far my favorite DC character and he keeps getting the short end of the stick. I don't want him to take over Batman, but he needs a more permanent place with better stories and supporting characters.

[fierceandfunky]

what upsets me, is that RED ROBIN will be jason todd. and aparently, red robin will have a big role in DCU in 2007.

[carabas]

The answer to that is a definite "sort of." Didio has pretty much admitted to being unimpressed by Nightwing and he planned to have Dick Grayson killed off in Infinite Crisis. Fortunately, the negative feedback from Geoff Johns and other writers kept that from happening, but now DC doesn't seem to know what to do with him.

Fixed.
Fans didn't even find out about it until after the fact.

[Captain Jim]

what upsets me, is that RED ROBIN will be jason todd.

Do we know that for a fact? If so, please give the source.

[Captain Jim]

Fixed.
Fans didn't even find out about it until after the fact.

Okay, I'll accept that.

[Red Lotus]

Do we know that for a fact? If so, please give the source.

Didn't their EIC give it away at one of the cons that and that Barry was the Flash.

[jamal Igle]

Does anyone think DC is intentionally not letting Nightwing rise up to the status of a A list hero cause that will take away from Batman? It seems to me that Nightwing should be a lot further a long as a hero than what I see being portrayed in his stories. Does Batman have to die or retire in order for DC to take Nightwing more seriously as a hero?

No there is no not an intentional effort to keep Nightwing down. As a matter of fact it's just the opposite. And as we get into the next storyline you will get a chance to see that.

[van_line]

DC needs to put Nightwing in the JSA or JLA. They need him as the leader of an A-team. Outsiders is ok, but at some point he needs to step into the light.

Actually you know what, take Batman off the JLA and put Nightwing in it. The book would probably lose a few readers, but Batman can still appear every once in a while, helping the league figure stuff out, but just every few issues. Have Nightwing be the tactical leader of the team. I've liked the few times Nightwing has fought along side with Superman.


See in my mind that is the absolute worst thing they could do. I am huge fan of the character and right now what does he really add to the Outsiders? Has he done anything in that series that would make the random fan say, hm maybe I should check this out?

I think the best thing to be done is find a quality writer and artist and give them a long leash and a long term contract (ie. bendis on daredevil) and let them work. I was a fan of Wolfman's titans growing up but right now his arc is very uninspiring. I am not sure if Dixon has any interest in returning to the series but what he did was some quality work there.

[Captain Jim]

I suspect Chuck *would* be interested, but not all of the DCU editors care for Chuck because of his politics. Not sure what kind of relationship he does or doesn't have with the current Nightwing editor (in fact, I don't even remember who that is offhand). I do think Chuck would do a good job, though.

[Captain Jim]

Didn't their EIC give it away at one of the cons that and that Barry was the Flash.

I'm a little vague on that myself. However, I do know that Didio has since admitted that he was wrong in saying that Barry would be the Flash.

[astronato]

Not to anger Nightwing fans but Dick Graysons best gig was that of Robin. Dick as Robin is an iconic character. Dick as Nightwing is a C lister.

Nightwing has a nice costume now but he had an awful costume for 20 years that I think has left a lasting impression.

Also, as an outsider who doesn't read the Nightwing book, the writers and fans seem to want Nightwing to move as far away from Batman as possible to make him his own man. But I think the connection to Batman is the most interesting thing about him.

To me Red Robin would be a better gig for the character. It is reminiscent of his glory days but also differentiates him from the other Robin.

[Stephane Garrelie]

Marv Wolfman is currently writing great stories on Nightwing, and Jammal Iggle the new artist is top notch too.:)

[Lauren_Guerra]

No there is no not an intentional effort to keep Nightwing down. As a matter of fact it's just the opposite. And as we get into the next storyline you will get a chance to see that.
Thanks for the response Jamal, had no idea you were on this site. Forgive me for being skeptical but nightwing fans have been hearing wait wait wait for a long time for Nightwing to be given due credit so I will enjoy this storyline and in anticipation for the next arc and I hope it can deliver on all counts!

[sun tzu]

Technically, Nightwing has been in the JLA - its leader, even - during the "Obsidian Age" arc.

[TROUBLEZ]

I haven't read alot of Dick Grayson adventures, whether they be as Robin or Nightwing, but from what little I have read, Nightwing came across as a confindent man and very effective and moral hero.

Then I gave up on comics, came back a few years ago, started reading the forums and found out that

he's been raped by tarantula
he has a phobia about Two-Face and got scared when he fought him as Batman.
he was moping around because he didn't have a home or know who he was.

he sounds like a b*tch.

I know comics characters can't stay the same, but Nightwing has surpassed his adventures as Batman's sidekick, he fought aliens, fought the best assassins. Why would he have a phobia about Two-Face?

I like the character but until they have the right comic for him, they should just not bring him up for awhile. Let him have adventures off panel or something.

[Captain Jim]

Why would he have a phobia about Two-Face?

You kind of have to know the story (and I'm not sure I recall the exact details). From what I remember, I think he was almost killed by Two-Face at a very vulnerable point in his life. Phobias aren't logical; they just exist.

Anybody who remembers the details better then me, please feel free to elaborate.

[jamal Igle]

I haven't read alot of Dick Grayson adventures, whether they be as Robin or Nightwing, but from what little I have read, Nightwing came across as a confindent man and very effective and moral hero.

Then I gave up on comics, came back a few years ago, started reading the forums and found out that

he's been raped by tarantula
he has a phobia about Two-Face and got scared when he fought him as Batman.
he was moping around because he didn't have a home or know who he was.

he sounds like a b*tch.

I know comics characters can't stay the same, but Nightwing has surpassed his adventures as Batman's sidekick, he fought aliens, fought the best assassins. Why would he have a phobia about Two-Face?

I like the character but until they have the right comic for him, they should just not bring him up for awhile. Let him have adventures off panel or something.
He wasn't afraid of Two Face, he doesn't have a phobia. he had apprehension because Two face managed to kidnap him when He was Robin.

[van_line]

what upsets me, is that RED ROBIN will be jason todd. and aparently, red robin will have a big role in DCU in 2007.


Nightwing becoming Red Robin is a terrible idea, IMO. Grayson is his own hero now and if he were to assume the mantle of R. Robin it would be a huge step backwards in his development.

[jamal Igle]

Thanks for the response Jamal, had no idea you were on this site. Forgive me for being skeptical but nightwing fans have been hearing wait wait wait for a long time for Nightwing to be given due credit so I will enjoy this storyline and in anticipation for the next arc and I hope it can deliver on all counts!

I'm one of those fans who got angry because of all the crap Devin Grayson and the Bruce Jones(Whose work I've always found completely unreadable) put him through. So I've been making an effort to make some real changes.

[Karl O'Neill]

The Current Nightwing Arc is going pretty well methinks.

Bride and Groom.

Marv has always had a nack for creating new and unique heros and villains
(NB. Marv created Bulleye, Deathstoke, taskmaster,Trigon, The brotherhood of evil, cyborg, most of the teen titans for gods sake! The list goes on)

And The art is quite nice in these first few issues,

jamal, if you would indulge me this notion, i think your art is similar to dan jurgens(compliament).

Nightwings motorbike is a cool idea too.

The covers are nice too.

[We R. Venom]

Damn, thats quite the list. Why is Marv always creating Assasins?

[wes_rk]

See in my mind that is the absolute worst thing they could do. I am huge fan of the character and right now what does he really add to the Outsiders? Has he done anything in that series that would make the random fan say, hm maybe I should check this out?

I think the best thing to be done is find a quality writer and artist and give them a long leash and a long term contract (ie. bendis on daredevil) and let them work. I was a fan of Wolfman's titans growing up but right now his arc is very uninspiring. I am not sure if Dixon has any interest in returning to the series but what he did was some quality work there.

I agree with the long leash and contract to let a creative team pick up Nightwing, I think at this point is necessary (or was necessary after the past few years), the current story seems to be doing great and that's always a huge plus, I know for a fact I'm enjoying it. That's the first step to, first of all please all the old readers and bring in new ones.
But I also think Nightwing needs to have a bigger role somehow, there's this whole generation of superheroes that are just wondering around after having a big profile in the DCU, and Dick, although he goes by a different name now than when he first started, has been in the DCU longer than all of them. Time to show up a little respect IMO.
I'm also curious about the monitors, what will this do to Nightwing and how will he come out at the end.

[barbarous j]

Wally was a founding member of the big seven version of the JLA.

Roy is a member of the current version of the league.

What about Dick? His original Titans buddies have had the shot at the big time, but he's still stuck leading the Outsiders. In the obsion age arc it is revealed that if everyone dies, he's the leader of the League. So basically he's the DCU's Secretary of Agriculture.

I agree that being Nightwing doesn't help his profile. You ask the non-comics reader who Nightwing is, and they have no idea. But everyobody knows who Dick Grayson is. Nightwing should be one of DC's hottest properties. Instead he's stuck in this transition place where we're told he's going to have this huge role, but the time isn't now.

[Captain Jim]

You ask the non-comics reader who Nightwing is, and they have no idea. But everyobody knows who Dick Grayson is.

I'm not sure that's entirely true. Wasn't Nightwing pretty prominent on one of the Batman animated shows?

I think the majority of comics characters are unknown outside of comics unless they've been featured on TV or in the movies.

[wes_rk]

He appeared sometimes in the Batman tv show, mostly in the final season I think.
I remember an episode where Gordon is after Batman. Batman, Tim and Dick go underground, Dick is caught by Gordon. Then the whole GCPD invades the batcave, and at the end we see what could possible be the death of Batman and commissioner Gordon... and then Barbara wakes up and it was all a dream. Quite a sad episode really, until you see that it was all a dream. I remember I was sad by the fact that Batman's world was crumbling down right in front of him, I never knew I cared so much about the character until that episode. I was young too, so don't hold it against me. I remember another episode where Catwoman tries to fool Dick, but he's actually fooling her. Nightwing also had a blink and miss it cameo in JLU.

Besides a few appearances I don't think the general public has any idea who Nightwing is, but they do know that Dick Grayson is Robin.

[Lauren_Guerra]

I love the what Marv and Jamal have done with nightwing so far and am confident the next story arc will deliver but I do think one thing needs to be touched on for Nightwing to really be put on top and that is a one on one fight with Deathstroke. Unless we have a retcon or something I cant see how Nightwing wouldnt go after Deathstroke with whole Bludhaven Debacle. I can't explain how reading Green Arrow and his battle with Deathstroke left me confused as how Nightwing can be denied that victory as it really did nothing for Green arrow but would have elevated Nightwing to a better position. An added benefit would be Marv writing the story since both are his creations and would make for an awesome read. Anyone else think this?

[jamal Igle]

I love the what Marv and Jamal have done with nightwing so far and am confident the next story arc will deliver but I do think one thing needs to be touched on for Nightwing to really be put on top and that is a one on one fight with Deathstroke. Unless we have a retcon or something I cant see how Nightwing wouldnt go after Deathstroke with whole Bludhaven Debacle. I can't explain how reading Green Arrow and his battle with Deathstroke left me confused as how Nightwing can be denied that victory as it really did nothing for Green arrow but would have elevated Nightwing to a better position. An added benefit would be Marv writing the story since both are his creations and would make for an awesome read. Anyone else think this?

We're going to be introducing some new villians first and at some point Slade Wilson will be dealt with.

[Lauren_Guerra]

All I can say is im satisfied with that answer, its nice to actually have regular contact with someone actually on Nightwing wit credibility so thanks for the assurance Jamal!

[Nosyarg Kcid]

We're going to be introducing some new villians first and at some point Slade Wilson will be dealt with.

*clap clap* Thank you! That is so refreshing to hear ... I was a bit concerned that they were going to try to take Nightwing out on a second pass during one of the upcoming events.

[Captain Jim]

Jamal, your participation on this forum is very much appreciated.

Is Marv still only guaranteed twelve issues? And does that apply to you too, or not? (I like your work, btw.)

[VietN]

Having Nightwing join an established team is interesting... but I'm not sold on it either.

I think it would be perfect if the Outsiders were brought up CLOSER to that JLA, JSA level and along with the understanding that its Nightwing's team.

[jamal Igle]

Jamal, your participation on this forum is very much appreciated.

Is Marv still only guaranteed twelve issues? And does that apply to you too, or not? (I like your work, btw.)

Thank you.
I'm not locked into a specific number of issues. Marv has said that he's locked into a year,maybe more.

[Rupertmetal]

Nightwing can't be as good as Batman and definately not better. If that did happened he'd be Batman. I think Nightwing has sucked lately. Basically, since the end of the story with Deathstroke and Rose, I haven't enjoyed it that much. Since Nightwing will never be as good as Batman, Tim Drake is a better detective than him and BatgirlII is a better fighter than him, all he's got is villains to make his comic good.

If DC makes Nightwing tangle with a good villian, and not get his ass kicked then the comic is good to me, which is what happened in the Deathstroke/Rose story.

[Christopher Cross Is God]

One unexplored aspect of Dick is the fact that he mastered his martial arts and detective skills much faster than Bruce. In essence, Dick at thirteen was superior to Bruce at thirteen in both fighting and deduction. Furthermore, Dick fought psychos, super-humans, and even aliens while in his teens. Bruce was still learning back then. Dick seems to be better at learning and adapting than Bruce. You could argue that Tim is the same way.

Problem with that aspect is both Dick & Tim had a great mentor in Bruce, who they lived with and constantly trained/learned under. Bruce learned from others, but not in the same way, especially at 13.

So it doesn't really mean they're better at learning and adapting than Bruce. They just had situational advantages.

[titanfan]

Nightwing can't be as good as Batman and definately not better. If that did happened he'd be Batman. I think Nightwing has sucked lately.

He doesn't have to be better than Batman in terms of his detective skills or fighting, but he can have his own specialty skills that sets him apart. Team Leadership for example, because Nightwing is a better "people person" for example, he would make a field leader than Batman ever could. (Plus, he has way more experience)

To answer the question, I think Nightwing has been held back by DC. First by not giving him his own series in the 80's when his popularity had peaked. Then--in my opinion--when he did finally get his own series--that held him back even further. For one thing, it sort of took him out of the DC Universe and put him back into the Bat-Universe. Then, the direction that Chuck Dixon chose to go with the character, further regressed the character by a good 10 years. In gaming terms, Dick had been nerfed--mainly so he could grow back into the character he already was at the end of Teen Titans.

Then the quality of his book when waaaaay down. He's lost his "cool" factor--if Wolfman can't get sales up, I'm worried the character may be damaged for good.

[DLH1970]

He doesn't have to be better than Batman in terms of his detective skills or fighting, but he can have his own specialty skills that sets him apart. Team Leadership for example, because Nightwing is a better "people person" for example, he would make a field leader than Batman ever could. (Plus, he has way more experience)

To answer the question, I think Nightwing has been held back by DC. First by not giving him his own series in the 80's when his popularity had peaked. Then--in my opinion--when he did finally get his own series--that held him back even further. For one thing, it sort of took him out of the DC Universe and put him back into the Bat-Universe. Then, the direction that Chuck Dixon chose to go with the character, further regressed the character by a good 10 years. In gaming terms, Dick had been nerfed--mainly so he could grow back into the character he already was at the end of Teen Titans.

Then the quality of his book when waaaaay down. He's lost his "cool" factor--if Wolfman can't get sales up, I'm worried the character may be damaged for good.


That pretty much nails it on the head.

[Captain Jim]

the direction that Chuck Dixon chose to go with the character, further regressed the character by a good 10 years.

Wow, do I ever disagree. Would you care to elaborate a bit on why you feel this way?

[Titanium]

I think they should really pump Nightwing up to mainstream A-List. It's been long overdue. Put him in the JLA or even the JSA, make him top tier player in the DCU. The way it looks, Jason Todd's going to be getting a lot of attention put on him by Countdown. Tim Drake is Robin and gets thrown in everywhere because of that. Dick Grayson needs to come out of the shadows. Start with a public view of Nightwing, does the general public know he was Robin 1? Or even, that Dick Grayson is Bruce Wayne's adopted son, I'd like to see some crappy vh1 reality series taking an interest in the billionaire and tracking down his son to find out how screwy living with him as a father was.

Is Nightwing as scary as Batman? Do people even know who he is? These are things that I'd like to see addressed as Nightwing gets more attention on him.

Wasn't there supposed to be a big deal with him not surviving the crisis? Has that been scrapped and his role given to Jason Todd now?

Really, I'd like to see a big sons of the bat story covering Dick having grown into his own man, Jason ending up like he has, and Tim's future as a Robin.


With the multiverse back, I'd be interested in seeing an earth where the original titans have all grown up and become the justice league with Nightwing as leader.

[Belfast_Fanboy]

this is actually the best idea yet (not knowing how they're handling the megaverse in countdown) why not have a series of minis on each of the earths instead of just visiting them? Nightwing being shown i these other earths might jump start an idea for new earth or earth 1 or whatever its called at the min

[Tien Long]

I think Nightwing in the past couple of years has had it rough, at least storywise and its something that many of the fans haven't been able to handle. I remember in an article once in Wizard, Chuck Dixon was interviewed concerning his take on Dick, and what basically he said was what many of you have been saying, that Dick was a confident, good-looking, positive-thinking character, a contrast to Bruce. Going over Dixon's early issues, one can see that no matter how serious the situation became, Dick would handle it w/ this great intensity and confidence.

That's why I'm not angry over the Devin Grayson run on Nightwing. Putting him through the ringer, having him lose his girlfriend and being partially responsible for the deaths of his apartment friends, and ultimately his archnemesis Blockbuster was a way to test his confidence and resolve, as well as see Dick in a different, darker manner.

For me, however, I think I'd like to see Dick as that cavalier, acrobatic wonder, who would leap right into action. That was one of the characteristics which distinguished him from the Bruce's other "sons." Tim is the detective, Jason is the fighter, while Dick is the daredevil. I would also like to see him develop a rogues gallery. Losing Blockbuster and his cronies has left this vacuum. Furthermore, after glancing through both Nightwing's main title, as well as the Outsiders, I'm a little confused as to what his personality is. Does he still have a moral center, or has he turned into someone who's willing to "cross the line?"

[Rusty Cage]

Great thread. Nightwing's one of my favorite characters, and I've often been fustrated with how he's been used. When the ongoing first started, I really thought he could be DC's Spider-Man/Peter Parker...that young guy we could all relate to (unlike the Big 3), and just someone who's very likable (unlike Bats/Bruce at times). Why he hasn't gotten to that level, I'm not sure (although there have been some really good reasons given in this thread), but I do agree that a JLA membership would help.

I'd like to see Nightwing replace Batman in the League. Not only would that signal to fans to "pay attention to this guy", but Nightwing could grow as a hero with even Superman and Wonder Woman defering to him on things from time to time. Black Canary is the leader now, but I'm sure Bats will continue to have a lot of say. That could be Nightwing. He may not be the best at everything (like Batman), but he is a good hero who could thrive if put in a better position.

And on a related note, I'm kind of tired of Batman being with Superman and Wonder Woman. Not that I don't like the relationship, but I just don't need to see it every month. I miss the days when the Batman/Superman meetings were special. Obviously, making the switch to Nightwing would take care of that, and I'm not so sure that Batman wouldn't be better mentoring The Outsiders, along with being on the dirtier, more underground team. From a personality standpoint, Nightwing's better suited to be on the team with more of a moral compass. It would be fun to see Nightwing's relationship develop with Supes and Wondy as equals.

[titanfan]

Wow, do I ever disagree. Would you care to elaborate a bit on why you feel this way?

Sure. Basically, all of the character growth that Dick went through in his own series (Confidence Issues, Living under the Bat Shadow, Establishing his own identity, etc.) was the same story we had already read for the past 10 issues when he was at Teen Titans.

Dick had already dealt with those demons and Dixon chose to revisit them. I'm not saying Dixon's run wasn't good, and I understand why he chose to go in the direction that he did, but the series definitely was not written for the same fan base that had followed him in Titans.

[Captain Jim]

Sure. Basically, all of the character growth that Dick went through in his own series (Confidence Issues, Living under the Bat Shadow, Establishing his own identity, etc.) was the same story we had already read for the past 10 issues when he was at Teen Titans.

Dick had already dealt with those demons and Dixon chose to revisit them. I'm not saying Dixon's run wasn't good, and I understand why he chose to go in the direction that he did, but the series definitely was not written for the same fan base that had followed him in Titans.

Okay, you may have a point. I think Dixon did pretty much treat Dick as a blank slate (i.e., Dick's book was not treated as a Titans' spin-off). But I don't agree that this "regressed the character."

[Red Lotus]

Having Nightwing join an established team is interesting... but I'm not sold on it either.

I think it would be perfect if the Outsiders were brought up CLOSER to that JLA, JSA level and along with the understanding that its Nightwing's team.


Didn't "lying in the gutters" say some thing about a team that would have Nightwing, Supergirl, donna troy, firestorm, and some one else.

[Tien Long]

After having reread the early issues of the new Outsiders series, I've started to reexamine Nightwing's role and character in the DCU. Indeed, I feel more than ever that Grayson is a true leader and deserves to take more a prominent role in DCU affairs. Like has been said before on this thread, here is a person who basically everyone in the superhero community will rally before. He's decisive and calculating when it comes to leading a team, but his charisma makes people follow him, not out of fear, but out of respect. This can be seen in the personality that Dick possesses. Whereas he was the "first son" of Batman, (which in itself carries w/ it an interesting combination of respect, responsibility, and expectation) he's not as dark and brooding as Bruce. Rather, he can laugh and smile at life and have loving and even romantic, intimate relations w/ others. Also, I like the fact that the younger generation, like the Teen Titans, look to Dick as a mentor. It's an fascinating, yet logical progression of the character, from being the student of a hero to becoming the teacher of heroes.

Furthermore, there's alot of brawn that goes with that brain. Probably the best non-metahuman acrobat in the DCU, his fighting skills and agility make him a lethal combination. Love the escrima sticks!!!

So definitely, Nightwing RULES!!!!:D

[captain winkie]

Really enjoying reading this thread.

My thought is that Nightwing is really getting some attention from DC over the past couple of years. I just feel like at the same time there is some focus on the self-doubt that he struggles with in the form of being in Batman's shadow. And i think we see him getting past that as of late. It is still there, but it isn't the focus of his life.


I feel like he has earned his place with the A-listers, and has all of their respect, but his place is on the line between the A's and the B's, being the 'teacher of heroes' since the A-listers are just too busy playing with Karate Kid or whatever the hell it is they do.

[colossus34]

Been a fan of NW for quite some time. No question the current DCPTB are holding NW back and have been for quite some time. In the early 90's before his solo, there was talks of a massive mini series/crossover event starring NW written by Art thilbert where he basically singlehandly saves the entire DCU universe from an alien invasion, rescues Starfire from death and returns to Earth as the most prasied hero by everyone from Supes to WW to Flash and most improtantly Bats. It was supposed to elevate NW from his huge popularity as the Titans leader into an A-List solo hero alongside DCU's top tier...unforuntely for NW fans the series NEVER happened. a real shame..:(

Instead, Dixon took over a solo series that launched with much buzz and fanfare for the character but like others mentioned while initially an enjoyable and exciting read--gradually meandered and did little to turn NW into A-lister especially after it passed into the "claws" of Devin G.

Its hard to imagine Didio and company even comprehending launching a similar campaign to elevate the character to new heights of popularity that Art nearly accomplished.

In fact, they seem intent on doing the opposite. While Jason Todd continuously takes away and borrows Grayson's identities, legacy's and plots to furthur the merits of his own charcter(becuase he has no merits of his own) NW's legacy and uniqueness as a character is taken away. Jason Todd needs to look tough, so lets have him beat on NW. Jason Todd needs to have a richer history(lets take away Red Robin from Grayson). Hell as much as I like Tim Drake -- they're even taking away elements from Grayson Robin to make Drake look better. Dick was leader of Titans--Tim is leader of Titans. Dick is son of Batman--Tim is son of Batman. Get the point? It dilutes NW rich character history and uniquness.

MArv/Jamal are the best things ot happen to NW in a long time. My only hope is that they restablish the character into the top tier in the years ahead and my hopes went up when I heard DC plans on making a live action Teen Titans movie starring NW--that would definetly be the kind of exposure the character needs.

[The Punished]

Been a fan of NW for quite some time. No question the current DCPTB are holding NW back and have been for quite some time. In the early 90's before his solo, there was talks of a massive mini series/crossover event starring NW written by Art thilbert where he basically singlehandly saves the entire DCU universe from an alien invasion, rescues Starfire from death and returns to Earth as the most prasied hero by everyone from Supes to WW to Flash and most improtantly Bats. It was supposed to elevate NW from his huge popularity as the Titans leader into an A-List solo hero alongside DCU's top tier...unforuntely for NW fans the series NEVER happened. a real shame..:(

Instead, Dixon took over a solo series that launched with much buzz and fanfare for the character but like others mentioned while initially an enjoyable and exciting read--gradually meandered and did little to turn NW into A-lister especially after it passed into the "claws" of Devin G.

Its hard to imagine Didio and company even comprehending launching a similar campaign to elevate the character to new heights of popularity that Art nearly accomplished.

In fact, they seem intent on doing the opposite. While Jason Todd continuously takes away and borrows Grayson's identities, legacy's and plots to furthur the merits of his own charcter(becuase he has no merits of his own) NW's legacy and uniqueness as a character is taken away. Jason Todd needs to look tough, so lets have him beat on NW. Jason Todd needs to have a richer history(lets take away Red Robin from Grayson). Hell as much as I like Tim Drake -- they're even taking away elements from Grayson Robin to make Drake look better. Dick was leader of Titans--Tim is leader of Titans. Dick is son of Batman--Tim is son of Batman. Get the point? It dilutes NW rich character history and uniquness.

MArv/Jamal are the best things ot happen to NW in a long time. My only hope is that they restablish the character into the top tier in the years ahead and my hopes went up when I heard DC plans on making a live action Teen Titans movie starring NW--that would definetly be the kind of exposure the character needs.

Nicely stated! I agree with your synopsis of the character. From your keyboard to DC's ears!

[colossus20]

I agree as well. I love your explanation of the situation, I hadn't even thought of that.

Here's my take. If DC gives Dick all he deserves, it's not going to detract from Bats at all. Give him Bludhaven, permanently, give him good villains, let him be his own guy. Like his Marvel counterpart, Daredevil, he will always be in the shadow of a more popular character, but that doesn't mean he can't be just as cool. I would also like to see him head up a grown up team of superheroes, not just a "teen" group.

Ideal team:
1. Nightwing
2. Captain Marvel (grown up Billy Batson, he can't always be thirteen)
3. Arsenal
4. A new Green Lantern, someone from another world (anyone but Kyle)
5. Oracle
6. Changeling
7. Damage

[Magneto_X]

I suspect Chuck *would* be interested, but not all of the DCU editors care for Chuck because of his politics. Not sure what kind of relationship he does or doesn't have with the current Nightwing editor (in fact, I don't even remember who that is offhand). I do think Chuck would do a good job, though.

What are the politics that are keeping Dixon from writing Nightwing again?

This is the first I've heard of it.

[Magneto_X]

Not to anger Nightwing fans but Dick Graysons best gig was that of Robin. Dick as Robin is an iconic character. Dick as Nightwing is a C lister.

Nightwing has a nice costume now but he had an awful costume for 20 years that I think has left a lasting impression.

Also, as an outsider who doesn't read the Nightwing book, the writers and fans seem to want Nightwing to move as far away from Batman as possible to make him his own man. But I think the connection to Batman is the most interesting thing about him.

To me Red Robin would be a better gig for the character. It is reminiscent of his glory days but also differentiates him from the other Robin.

I prefer Grayson in his NW persona. He's "graduated" from being Robin long ago.

Tim fits better as Robin, IMO. But eventually I'd like to see where Tim goes after he doesn't want to be Robin anymore. Pre-Identity Crisis Tim didn't want to take up the Batman mantle but since he's gotten "dark" (which I didn't like, it makes him to much like Bruce 2.0) he may want to become bats in the future (he even *did that* in the Titans Tomorrow arc!).

[Magneto_X]

Having Nightwing join an established team is interesting... but I'm not sold on it either.

I think it would be perfect if the Outsiders were brought up CLOSER to that JLA, JSA level and along with the understanding that its Nightwing's team.

Personally, I'd like Grayson to lead a new group of (adult) Titans.

[Dr. Drake Ramoray]

I've been a Dick Grayson fan since before his stint with Marv's The New Teen Titans back in the day. If anyone will give Dick his props as a writer, it's Marv. Remember, Dick was the one that Deathstroke was really sweating when he went after the Titans back when.

And in character, Dick got his props from Superman during the recent "Auctioneer" story in Action Comics, hell, Dick and Clark read almost well in a story together as Clark and Bruce.

The one place where Dick does beat himself up is his relationship with Barbara. Fix that, make him field leader of Birds of Prey, and look out!

[Captain Jim]

What are the politics that are keeping Dixon from writing Nightwing again?

This is the first I've heard of it.

Chuck is one of the few conservatives in the comics world; most comic pros are liberals. Because of this, there are many places he is not welcome.

[The Xenos]

Yeah, but aren't liberals open minded and accepting of people with all viewpoints of life, not just their own? :rolleyes:

[Tien Long]

Been a fan of NW for quite some time. No question the current DCPTB are holding NW back and have been for quite some time. In the early 90's before his solo, there was talks of a massive mini series/crossover event starring NW written by Art thilbert where he basically singlehandly saves the entire DCU universe from an alien invasion, rescues Starfire from death and returns to Earth as the most prasied hero by everyone from Supes to WW to Flash and most improtantly Bats. It was supposed to elevate NW from his huge popularity as the Titans leader into an A-List solo hero alongside DCU's top tier...unforuntely for NW fans the series NEVER happened. a real shame..:(

Instead, Dixon took over a solo series that launched with much buzz and fanfare for the character but like others mentioned while initially an enjoyable and exciting read--gradually meandered and did little to turn NW into A-lister especially after it passed into the "claws" of Devin G.

I thought Dixon's run on Nightwing was terrific. Hell, it was Dixon who got me interested into Nightwing. Indeed, his formula for writing Dick was a) showing off his AMAZING agility in every issue (courtesy of the great Scott McDaniels) b) showing how Dick coped w/ taking care of his own city, Bludhaven, which was in itself somewhat different from Gotham c) establishing a great rogues gallery, like Blockbuster, Torque, and Shrike, as well as a great supporting cast, which played off of the fact that Dick had a very likeable, personal side. Nice to see the romantic tension b/w him, Babs, and his super Clancy.

Dick was leader of Titans--Tim is leader of Titans. Dick is son of Batman--Tim is son of Batman. Get the point? It dilutes NW rich character history and uniquness.

I don't see that at all. Here, one can see that the title of Robin actually is becoming a type of legacy and tradition. The one who carries the mantle of the Robin not only is the sidekick of the Batman, but also one who serves as the leader of the Teen Titans. Basically, whenever a group of young heroes come together, it will always be Robin who will lead them. Also, though Tim Drake maybe a son of Bruce, that doesn't take anything away from Dick at all. Dick will always be the FIRST son of Bruce, an example of one taught, trained, and raised under the Batman who ultimately becomes his own hero.

[Captain Jim]

Yeah, but aren't liberals open minded and accepting of people with all viewpoints of life, not just their own? :rolleyes:

That's the theory, but in actual fact they are often open minded and accepting of all people except conservatives.

[Rattlehead]

Chuck is one of the few conservatives in the comics world; most comic pros are liberals. Because of this, there are many places he is not welcome.

That's really lame. So, Chuck being a great writer who doesn't shoehorn his personal beliefs into his writing is bad because he's a conservative. Yet, Judd Winick is a spotty writer who's writing literally drips with his liberal bias, and that's okay. A man should be judged by his deeds, not by his thoughts.

I'm glad Chuck isn't on the book though, I think Wolfman is the right man for the job, and Nightwing needs some major TLC right now.

[colossus34]

I thought Dixon's run on Nightwing was terrific. Hell, it was Dixon who got me interested into Nightwing. Indeed, his formula for writing Dick was a) showing off his AMAZING agility in every issue (courtesy of the great Scott McDaniels) b) showing how Dick coped w/ taking care of his own city, Bludhaven, which was in itself somewhat different from Gotham c) establishing a great rogues gallery, like Blockbuster, Torque, and Shrike, as well as a great supporting cast, which played off of the fact that Dick had a very likeable, personal side. Nice to see the romantic tension b/w him, Babs, and his super Clancy..

I'm not going to knock Dixon overall, like I said his run was a fun, exciting and swashbuckling adventure but unfortunely never did enough to establish Dick as someone on EQUAL footing with Batman as a superhero like Marv's titans run had begun to do for NW.

That is what the series should have accomplished in the long run but Dixon failed intead to have NW beat mega villians, had him job to make Conner Hawke look good, had him forget he was a detective to make Oracle and Tim Drake look good, turned the experienced, strategic leader into a brash, clumbsy kid who got knocked in the back of the head and charged into battles without thinking etc...

HELL I was one of the few who LOVED Bludhaven, thought it had a dark moody vibe perfect for NW who was the only ray of light/hope in a dismill whalling town worse than any city in DC. Sadly i wished another writer had an opportunity to take a stab earlier in the series.


I don't see that at all. Here, one can see that the title of Robin actually is becoming a type of legacy and tradition. The one who carries the mantle of the Robin not only is the sidekick of the Batman, but also one who serves as the leader of the Teen Titans. Basically, whenever a group of young heroes come together, it will always be Robin who will lead them. Also, though Tim Drake maybe a son of Bruce, that doesn't take anything away from Dick at all. Dick will always be the FIRST son of Bruce, an example of one taught, trained, and raised under the Batman who ultimately becomes his own hero.

Fact is the more DC turns Drake into a Grayson era clone circa the Teen titans the more Dick Grayson looks less special as the BEST leader, second best detective in DCU, only son of Batman etc...Drake started out as the brainy Robin, hell he even wore glasses in various issues he was basically the computer geek at school that people could associte with--Dick was the athletic, charismatic, good looking guy people looked at for leadership--NOW suddenly Tim Drake has turned into Mr.Charismatic leader too? Sounds like retconning to me.

This is not to mention the HORRID return of Jason Todd(*ick) in which he's basically been turned into evil Dick Grayson that DC continully shoves down our throats by forcing him into NW's persona, legacy and past relationships to give such a weak charcter some undeserved merit. Hell, I remember hearing right after OYL that NW's association with the Monitors was going to be explained in a future stoyline, guess they shoved that asside to give JT some spotlight in Countdown....DC doesn't get that the more they shove Todd down our throats the more they put him into Grayson persona(Red Robin, Nightwing etc) the MORE he's going to be hated by fans!

[chrismileslord]

This is a joke thread right?!? OF COURSE Nightwing is being held back by DC!!! It's an utter shame that a character with so much inherent likabliity, and at the early buzz of his popularity in the 90's was cool / relatable / exciting / thrilling and fun to read all at the same time. He was already so popular of a DC legacy character that anyone could have written his stories and fans would have flocked to buy them.

He was an uber-confident, swashbuckling fighter and featured as the forefront of DC's next great wave of superheros. There were comparisons to him being DC's Daredevil or Cap America property. Hell, Art Thilbert even had an entire mini series lined up where Nightwing basically single handedly saves planet Earth from an Alien threat, saves the life of Starfire and wows most of the DCU. How times have changed!!!

If DC wants to seriously make Grayson a big deal they need to take bold steps. He's supposed to be the leader of the next era of super hero's but he's caught in limbo. Enough with the him finding himself and him being a nomad trying to find a city to call home. DC needs to invest in him the way Marvel has done for Dardevil, Tony Stark etc. He's hardly redundant. He can be great if given the chance. Make him a great martial artist with all the natural skills and talents he was born with, an ultimate crime-fighter trained by the best, a brilliant strategist and tactician who can see puzzles and solve crimes like no one else can(Who is Donna Troy?). He should have a dangerous, lethal and interesting rouges gallery and a supporting cast we can love. Return him into the confident, relatable, slightly-cocky but always smiling-joking and full of positive energy superhero that he was before Devin-hoe started writing him. .

They need to do something - an event, a story where he's made into a big deal. They need to MAKE him Batman's clear equal as a crime-fighter and superhero--just like they did to Waly West, Kyle Rynor and every other legacy character--he needs to be allowed to reach his full potential.




YOUR MY NEW HERO!

that's my opinion exactly. He could be DC's Daredevil and that's why Nightwing is my favorite DC character and my second favorite character overall behind DD.