The joke in "The Killing Joke"

[mcilroga]

For years, I've wondered what the joke in The Killing Joke means. Call me an idiot, call me whatever, that damn Joker is so complex. :D] I've brainstormed alot, and the one I keep coming back to is this;

Maybe the inmate who jumped across the narrow gap represents Batman, who while still insane, can at least make the jump to the right side of the nuthouse. And that the second inmate who's afraid is The Joker. The first inmate (Batman) saying he can walk across on the beam is how Joker views all of Batman's pleas to him to try and get better, to fix himself. The Joker doesn't trust Batman to help him, and doesn't even trust himself to be able to get over the gap, and is in fact scared of what would happen if he did (he would have to actually deal with everything he lost in that one day that drove him insane, rather than just pushing it away and remembering it however he feels at that moment).

What are your thoughts?

[Tequilamokinbrd]

I always thought of it as The Joker's critique of Batman's quest to rehabilitate him.

I believe The Joker sees it as a fool's errand and thinks Batman should just kill him if he causes so much trouble.





In essence, he's saying that Batman is the man with the Flashlight, The Joker is the scared one, and the beam of light is the rehabilitation of The Joker. The Joker's saying that trying to rehabilitate him is just as crazy as trying to walk across a beam of light to safety.

Because not only does he think it(much like the beam) won't work, but he doesn't trust Batman to follow through with it to the end and thinks Batman will, "turn off the light while he's halfway across" so to speak because he thinks Batman is just as crazy as he is, and in no position to offer anyone help. Much like someone who offers you a beam of light from a flashlight to walk on is in no position to help his fellow inmate, even if said fellow inmate is crazy.


Or in other words...

Joker's saying that Batman trying to "save" the Joker is like the blind leading the blind, because who's gonna "save" Batman?

[mcilroga]

Interesting theory, I like it. I guess it's up for interpretation. Believe what you want to believe.

Anymore thoughts?

[BenReilly]

That's pretty interesting. Those theories actually make sense when you read the Arkham Asylum graphin novel as well. Check it out if you got it!

[elias_A]

I agree that with walking over to the other guy the Joker means a return to sanity.
So there are teo problems: Is it possible at all (walking on lightbeam), and can he really trust the other guy (Batman) for this.
The joke is, I think, that maybe he sees the wrong problem (trust), or even he admits that his hate/mistrust for Batman or any other help might be crazy; but he couldn't be helped anyway?

[yourverysilly]

I think those are great theories, its also important to note that Joker views himself AND batman (and society if you want to go that far) as insane. I love that ending, I wonder if Batman ever thinks about it at all...

[TheBatGotHim]

I just read this yesterday for the first time. Great read! Loved it! But I did find it a little out of character for Batman to laugh like he did at the end. I mean he hates the Joker.

But definately one of my favorite Batman stories. :)

[mcilroga]

Thanks for the responses, people. I guess in the end it's up for interpretation.

And TBGH, I loved it when Batman laughed at the end. It's really one of my favorite Batman moments. Because two men, for just a second, can forget about their hate towards eachother and share a laugh.

[mattx110]

Thanks for the responses, people. I guess in the end it's up for interpretation.

And TBGH, I loved it when Batman laughed at the end. It's really one of my favorite Batman moments. Because two men, for just a second, can forget about their hate towards eachother and share a laugh.

and then batman strangles him to death!

at least that's what i thought from age 9-13 before i read a comic with "oracle" in it.
shoulda been an elseworlds.
i figure the only way batman could laugh at joker's joke is if he realizes the futility of it, and ends the whole thing. "ok, you're funny, i get it, this is never gonna end unless i throw you off the roof and get back in my cell"

[The Cool Thatguy]

Thanks for the responses, people. I guess in the end it's up for interpretation.

And TBGH, I loved it when Batman laughed at the end. It's really one of my favorite Batman moments. Because two men, for just a second, can forget about their hate towards eachother and share a laugh.

Wasn't exactly your average laugh though. It was more along the lines of laughing so you don't cry, IMO.

I always thought the joke was that Joker thinks that the hope Batman is offering is just an illusion, and Joker can't bring himself to trust even that.

[Tequilamokinbrd]

Wasn't exactly your average laugh though. It was more along the lines of laughing so you don't cry, IMO.


Seconded. That's how I always read it.

[Tequilamokinbrd]

So there are two problems: Is it possible at all (walking on lightbeam), and can he really trust the other guy (Batman) for this.
The joke is, I think, that maybe he sees the wrong problem (trust), or even he admits that his hate/mistrust for Batman or any other help might be crazy; but he couldn't be helped anyway?

Also must be seconded, sums up what I was saying, only in less words.

[Black Atom]

The punchline of the joke is that the guys are BOTH crazy (a variation is two drunk guys, instead of two guys from an insane asylum). While one of them is sane enough not to trust the other crazy guy, his perception of reality is still so messed up that he can't recognize the proposition (walking along a lightbeam) is clearly impossible.

I guess you could interpret it as deeper metaphor, with the beam representing something, but I think the obvious implication is that Joker is obviously insane, but Batman's a little whacked, too. This is reinforced in the kind of absurd laughter they share.

So, in the joke, Joker is the guy with flashlight. Batman's the other guy, trying to apply logic to the absurd scenario. From the outside observer (us) we can clearly see they are BOTH crazy.

[mgs]

Because not only does he think it(much like the beam) won't work, but he doesn't trust Batman to follow through with it to the end and thinks Batman will, "turn off the light while he's halfway across" so to speak because he thinks Batman is just as crazy as he is, and in no position to offer anyone help. Much like someone who offers you a beam of light from a flashlight to walk on is in no position to help his fellow inmate, even if said fellow inmate is crazy.



so you're saying, The Killing Joke is just another version of the parable of the scorpion and the turtle?

I think another well known 'joke' from this book is in the joker trying to prove to batman that one bad day is enough to drive an ordinary person as crazy as both he and batman are now.

[Tequilamokinbrd]

so you're saying, The Killing Joke is just another version of the parable of the scorpion and the turtle?


A variation of it with other elements put in, but yeah pretty much.

[smoothjokes]

The punchline of the joke is that the guys are BOTH crazy (a variation is two drunk guys, instead of two guys from an insane asylum). While one of them is sane enough not to trust the other crazy guy, his perception of reality is still so messed up that he can't recognize the proposition (walking along a lightbeam) is clearly impossible.

I guess you could interpret it as deeper metaphor, with the beam representing something, but I think the obvious implication is that Joker is obviously insane, but Batman's a little whacked, too. This is reinforced in the kind of absurd laughter they share.

So, in the joke, Joker is the guy with flashlight. Batman's the other guy, trying to apply logic to the absurd scenario. From the outside observer (us) we can clearly see they are BOTH crazy.


^That's what I thought when I read the Killing Joke. It's a clever little ending Alan Moore put together there.

[niall mc cann]

I'm not sure about the idea that Moore was saying Batman was crazy...

Moore never writes Batman as crazy. His Batman isn't especially crazy compared to many of the other portrayals of the character over the years. Moore's Batman is a very rational man.

Also, i once saw it remarked that the true secret of TKJ is that the Joker isn't crazy at all - that he's a man who made a disgusting lifestyle choice of obscenity simply because it was easier than behaving sanely.

How that relates to the joke i don't know.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm not sure about the idea that Moore was saying Batman was crazy...

Moore never writes Batman as crazy. His Batman isn't especially crazy compared to many of the other portrayals of the character over the years. Moore's Batman is a very rational man.

Also, i once saw it remarked that the true secret of TKJ is that the Joker isn't crazy at all - that he's a man who made a disgusting lifestyle choice of obscenity simply because it was easier than behaving sanely.

How that relates to the joke i don't know.

Moore's Batman wasn't insane, but that wouldn't stop Joker from seeing him as such.

As for the second part, I'm hard pressed to see that. The general theme was 'one bad day', though I'm sure the Joker thinks insanity is easier than sanity ;).

[Sean Walsh]

Here's what I found at Wikipedia - so who knows if this is an "official" explanation of the joke's meaning or just some reader/writer's idea of what it meant....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Killing_Joke

The humorous closing anecdote relayed by the Joker explores this theme symbolically: the first inmate offering a beam of light for the second inmate to walk on is analogous to Batman offering an impossible hope of redemption to the Joker earlier in the story, and in trying to purge Gotham of crime; the second inmate represents the Joker, who is equally insane for believing it possible to walk across the beam of light, but it is his mistrust in humanity that prevents him from striding Batman's hopeful path. Where Batman attempts to convince the Joker that it is not too late to change his villainous ways, the Joker conversely tries to use conflict to show Batman that the world is too inherently sick to be worth living in. Toward that end, the Joker subjects Gordon to demoralizing tortures as a symbolic demonstration: if a decent, "average" man can be made to snap after one day, what is the point in trying to live in a society of rules and order?

The Joker's underlying motive is to illustrate the inherent insanity of Batman's mission: dressing up as a bat to fight criminals. It is only when Batman renders the Joker helpless and his extended assistance is rejected that the Dark Knight comes to appreciate the madman's aim, reacting just as the Joker would: Batman laughs hysterically.

[Keehar]

Here's what I found at Wikipedia - so who knows if this is an "official" explanation of the joke's meaning or just some reader/writer's idea of what it meant....

Sounds right to me. That's the way I interpreted that joke.

[Rupertmetal]

and then batman strangles him to death!

at least that's what i thought from age 9-13 before i read a comic with "oracle" in it.
shoulda been an elseworlds.
i figure the only way batman could laugh at joker's joke is if he realizes the futility of it, and ends the whole thing. "ok, you're funny, i get it, this is never gonna end unless i throw you off the roof and get back in my cell"

I agree that it should be an elseworlds. That is how I treat it. The only thing in it that I apply to the continuity of Batman is BatgirlI being paralyzed like you said.

[lead sharp]

This is cool.

Another way to look at it is Joker sees the Batman as a kindred spirit. A loon that won't let go of the illusion that he's sane, 'This man dresses like a bat and drives a car with giant wings on it and they call me crazy?' The Joker's lonely and simpley wants the closest person in his life to be with him. Making him the one who leaped (and from Jokers pov) looking back on the one still in the asylum/real world.

Weird thing is this fits the idea that Joker completely trusts Batman, he's the good guy and you always know where you stand with the good guy. Batman will always send him back to the asylum, he'll never kill him infact in the past he's gone out of his way to save him from death.

Batman doesn't trust the Joker and knows the 'torch beam' is a trap but the Joker see's the protests of not wanting to walk across it as lunacy indicating that the Joker percieves the real world as insane and himself the only one who can admit it.

meh

[TJ Shoun]

The joke is on the reader.

Batman's idea of successfully rehabilitating the Joker is absurdly funny because it would effectively put a permanent end to their conflict. And as most of us know, that's impossible given the nature of comicbooks. Batman realizes this, hence his laughter at the end.

It's equally silly to think that Batman would embrace his emotional hangups to the point of complete moral ambiguity, like the Joker encourages him to do all throughout the final action sequence.

Ultimately, you have two archetypes in eternal conflict. Any hope of real resolution to their struggle is silly, as is any reader who hopes to see it.

It's also important to note that the symbolism of the two asylum inmates in the final "joke" can be read either way. Most readers will see the first inmate "shining the flashlight" as Batman, offering redemption to the second inmate, the Joker.

It can certainly be read that way, but the analogy is equally valid (if not moreseo) turned the other way. The Joker has already made the "leap to freedom" (read: he's embraced his insanity) and offers the flashlight beam to Batman who refuses because, "Y'see, he's afraid of falling." In fact, the Joker is in front of Batman looking toward the moonlight and cityscape in the distance as he says, "they see the rooftops of the town, stretching away in the moonlight... stretching away to freedom." -- all of which indicates the Joker could be seen as the first inmate, the one offering a way out, even if it is by delving completely into madness.

It's clear the beam of light represents an end to their struggle... be it Batman's complete descent into madness, or Joker's rehabilitation. Obviously, neither is plausible.

All of which is driven home by the final few panels of the story in which we see the policecar headlights produce a lightbeam refelction in the puddle of rain while both men laugh hysterically. By the very final panel, the lightbeam reflection - and any hope of reconciliation - is absolutely gone.

Their struggle will never end. That's the joke.

[niall mc cann]

The joke is on the reader.

Batman's idea of successfully rehabilitating the Joker is absurdly funny because it would effectively put a permanent end to their conflict. And as most of us know, that's impossible given the nature of comicbooks. Batman realizes this, hence his laughter at the end.

It's equally silly to think that Batman would embrace his emotional hangups to the point of complete moral ambiguity, like the Joker encourages him to do all throughout the final action sequence.

Ultimately, you have two archetypes in eternal conflict. Any hope of real resolution to their struggle is silly, as is any reader who hopes to see it.

It's also important to note that the symbolism of the two asylum inmates in the final "joke" can be read either way. Most readers will see the first inmate "shining the flashlight" as Batman, offering redemption to the second inmate, the Joker.

It can certainly be read that way, but the analogy is equally valid (if not moreseo) turned the other way. The Joker has already made the "leap to freedom" (read: he's embraced his insanity) and offers the flashlight beam to Batman who refuses because, "Y'see, he's afraid of falling." In fact, the Joker is in front of Batman looking toward the moonlight and cityscape in the distance as he says, "they see the rooftops of the town, stretching away in the moonlight... stretching away to freedom." -- all of which indicates the Joker could be seen as the first inmate, the one offering a way out, even if it is by delving completely into madness.

It's clear the beam of light represents an end to their struggle... be it Batman's complete descent into madness, or Joker's rehabilitation. Obviously, neither is plausible.

All of which is driven home by the final few panels of the story in which we see the policecar headlights produce a lightbeam refelction in the puddle of rain while both men laugh hysterically. By the very final panel, the lightbeam reflection - and any hope of reconciliation - is absolutely gone.

Their struggle will never end. That's the joke.


That's fantastic. Really excellent analysis, TJS, thanks.

Can i ask where that analysis places the idea of Joker's irrationality as a rational choice?

[TJ Shoun]

That's fantastic. Really excellent analysis, TJS, thanks.

Can i ask where that analysis places the idea of Joker's irrationality as a rational choice?

That's the "flashlight beam" the Joker offers Batman - a chance to embrace the brand of morally ambiguous insanity that the Joker sees as the only valid response to horrible world. He invites Batman to see the world through his sick perceptions:

Joker to Batman: "So... I see you received the freet ticket I sent you. I'm glad. I did so want you to be here. It's all a joke! Everything anybody ever valued or struggled for... it's all a monstrous, demented gag! So why can't you see the funny side? Why aren't you laughing?"

____


On the other end of the spectrum is Batman's obsession with eliminating crime. If Batman is to be seen as the first inmate, the 'flashlight beam' he offers is structured rehabilitation.

Batman to Joker: "We could work together. I could rehabilitate you. You needen't be out there on the edge anymore. You needn't be alone. We don't have to kill each other. What do you say?"

This reflective, mirror-type juxtaposition of themes, concepts, and images is a hallmark of Moore's writing. My God, Watchmen is saturated with it. :)