INCREDIBLE HULK #104 - Spoilers & Discussion [Archive]

Expletive Deleted

03-07-2007, 11:11 AM

HULK #104 by Pak and Pagulayan, out today . . .

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

S

Oh, poor Hulk.

So . . . Hulk sees the video from the Illuminati, and he's pissed. Caiera talks him down, though, and convinces him that he can be the king Sakaar needs. She also tells him she's pregnant. Hulk frees the Spikes and helps them leave Sakaar forever (which involves some fantastic smashing, and one hell of a jump), puts the pinkies to work rebuilding the cities, and sends Korg and Hiroim to make peace with some of the other factions on Sakaar. Life is good.

Unfortunately, it's right about then that the warp core of the Illuminati's space capsule ruptures and seemingly annihilates the capitol city, with Hulk and Caiera standing right at ground zero.

I'm sure we can all see where this is going.

Incidentally, I read the "they tried to kill me" line as something other than a statement of paranoia. They tried to send Hulk to a place where he'd be desperately unhappy, especially this particular personality. By sending him to a place with nothing to smash and nothing to get angry about, they would've, in a sense, effectively killed him. Or am I reading too much into it? I can't tell.

Anyway, great issue.

agrich

03-07-2007, 11:43 AM

I hope the Hulk kills every last one of the rat bastards.

Expletive Deleted

03-07-2007, 12:06 PM

Well, he's certainly got the motivation.

trickster

03-07-2007, 12:19 PM

They tried to send Hulk to a place where he'd be desperately unhappy, especially this particular personality. By sending him to a place with nothing to smash and nothing to get angry about, they would've, in a sense, effectively killed him. Or am I reading too much into it? I can't tell.

That kinda sounds like Bizarro thinking to me. :)

mrc1214

03-07-2007, 12:33 PM

I really hope they make him kick the crap out of all them. Man they Marvel has made me despise Iron Man and Reed Richards. What complete nutjobs.

Kevinroc

03-07-2007, 12:36 PM

Hulk takes the slightest bit of provocation the wrong way. It's just who he is. After all, he heard their apology and that they were sending him away first and I doubt he heard much of anything after that.

Remember his reaction to the mind-controlled Silver Surfer earlier in the arc.

That's just what I think. Hulk's mentally ill. He's basically the poster-boy for mental illness in the Marvel Universe.

And I thought making The Illuminati the world-breaker... but not... was interesting. They certainly didn't intend for this to happen. But at the same time, this is sort of their fault. Or at least, that's what Hulk will think...

(And as soon as Caiera announced she was pregnant, I thought to myself "she's gonna die...")

This issue was the calm before the storm...

Willminus2

03-07-2007, 12:36 PM

I hope the Hulk comes back and destroys America and kills Iron Man and Reed Richards. That would be great!!! I'd love to see what the nature of comics would be like if that happened. Talk about a change in the landscape.

The Cool Thatguy

03-07-2007, 12:38 PM

Yowzers. I wonder who's gonna in the opinion of fandom for the city gettin' destroyed. The Illuminati for not making a ship who's engines don't blow up on a crash landing (it's the Hulk. A crash landing ought to be expected), or the Red King who just grabbed the ship and left it to sit.

...as if Stark didn't have enough to answer for already.

mrc1214

03-07-2007, 12:39 PM

Kevinroc

03-07-2007, 12:41 PM

They tried killing him. And Hulk is the only one whos mentally ill. Richards and Stark are completly crazy.

Well, at this point, I don't find it hard to believe that somebody wouldn't take Reed and Tony at their word. Especially Hulk.

Hell, they lied to him straight up in the video recording.

(The Nick Fury lines.)

gunz

03-07-2007, 12:44 PM

wow

i really didn't see that coming. I mean, I thought he would go back to earth just because he was pissed at them initialy, now he's REALLY going to be pissed. This might make him mad enough that he CAN'T revert back into banner, which I always thought would be the fatal flaw in WWH

I gotta say, when you honestly take a look back it, marvel really does set everything up quite well

Expletive Deleted

03-07-2007, 02:04 PM

And as soon as Caiera announced she was pregnant, I thought to myself "she's gonna die..."Yep, that's practically an invitation to the refrigerator, these days.

drwho

03-07-2007, 02:18 PM

XPac

03-07-2007, 02:28 PM

Hmmm... how about that. The Illuminati caused their own intergalactic Stamford. Isn't that funny.

I do like the twist they threw in there. It forces you to sympathize with the Hulk without directly putting the blame on the Illuminati. That was definately a nice twist.

MAK15

03-07-2007, 02:41 PM

I think I know what's gonna happen:
I think that the Hulk's wife dies, or at least has a miscarraige.
terrible, yes, but that alone is enough to drive people to war.

mrc1214

03-07-2007, 02:47 PM

I think I know what's gonna happen:
I think that the Hulk's wife dies, or at least has a miscarraige.
terrible, yes, but that alone is enough to drive people to war.

Im pretty sure sending him to another planet and trying to kill him would be enough. I think it be a great idea for Hulk to have a child.

1WEBHEAD

03-07-2007, 02:48 PM

I was a little disappointed because I wanted to see Hulk in his new role for awhile. Little annoying they went and offed his wife just like that. Also I was hope Miek and the brood would have manipulated him more wanting to fight rather than the spaceship blowing up.

Hmmm... how about that. The Illuminati caused their own intergalactic Stamford. Isn't that funny.

I do like the twist they threw in there. It forces you to sympathize with the Hulk without directly putting the blame on the Illuminati. That was definately a nice twist.

I agree with both of you guys. This issue was a win/lose issue. There's my reveiw in a nutshell.

pesmerga316

03-07-2007, 02:52 PM

Are we sure that Caera is dead? I mean does it show her dead? God I hope not, nowhere here got comics today because of some storm last week in new york, its retarded.. I wanted those two together for awhile

Pendaran

03-07-2007, 03:14 PM

Well, I did figure since Hulk 100 that merely exiling him to space was going to be a bit too subtle for Pak as far as his rendition of the Hulk's opposition and what they did to piss him off. Still, having their spaceship explode a city, that's hilarious as far as pure over the top. I suppose Miek having managed to manipulate him any would have been far too complex.

I do like the twist they threw in there. It forces you to sympathize with the Hulk without directly putting the blame on the Illuminati. That was definately a nice twist.

I'd more call it ham handed and blatant myself, but that was my own read.

I wonder if Pak will have the explosion go on to basically be what takes out the planet. Perhaps with a giant outline of the Illuminati's heads laughing in the blast. Y'know, like how there are short stories about people having seen Satan in the atomic bomb test recordings.

They tried killing him.

I missed where they ever actually tried to kill him in anything they've done.

I'd noted before wondering if Reed and co were basically going to be charicatures of themselves come WWH, reading this issue pushed me more towards thinking yes.

Kevinroc

03-07-2007, 03:17 PM

Xanrn

03-07-2007, 03:51 PM

What an utterload of bullcrap.

Sorry were ment to -ing believe Reed Richards would put a massive Fusion Bomb in a craft designed for the Hulk.

Bullshit, he ain't that stupid.

stingerman

03-07-2007, 03:58 PM

What an utterload of bullcrap.

Sorry were ment to -ing believe Reed Richards would put a massive Fusion Bomb in a craft designed for the Hulk.

Bullshit, he ain't that stupid.

Iron Man did it. Hes that stupid. HAHA;)

Anyway, I think his wife and child are dead. The whole friggin city is a mushroom cloud and whoever is left is coming to Earth.

Pendaran

03-07-2007, 03:59 PM

What an utterload of bullcrap.

Sorry were ment to -ing believe Reed Richards would put a massive Fusion Bomb in a craft designed for the Hulk.

Bullshit, he ain't that stupid.

I find it perfectly easy to believe, and hilariously tolerable when viewed in the lens of writer one upsmanship.

Bendis: "The Hulk's rampages generally kill people."

Pak: "Oh yeah? Well the Illuminati's spaceship just killed a whole city! Ha ha!"

Tieri: "Yeah, well the Gamma Corps are all made up of people who have suffered losses of loved ones and misery due to specific Hulk rampages!"

What will the response be next? And from who? Will Paul Jenkins reveal that Tony and Reed's plan to defeat the Hulk involves a cannon powered by Doctor Strange imprisoning the souls of Christ's apostles? Will Mark Millar respond with that the Hulk's gamma radiation has infected the entire planet with cancer, and only the Illuminati's Apostle Cannon (patent pending) can save us all?

I think Civil War and its tie ins have shown us that different writers each with a different axe to grind about which characters they want to demonize, and which they want to glorify, and no real editorial oversight on any of them, has ushered in Marvel's most awesome era ever. Or at least most comedic.

Expletive Deleted

03-07-2007, 04:07 PM

What fusion bomb?

It was a warp drive. It ruptured. These things happen. Hell, it was practically a weekly occurrence on Star Trek.

It seemed very clear to me that Pak used it as a way of giving the Hulk a motivation for destruction without making the Illuminati explicitly liable for the death and destruction.

DoctorDoom

03-07-2007, 04:18 PM

Loved this issue. Can;t wait for WWH!

Xanrn

03-07-2007, 04:19 PM

Warp drives are a kind of fusion.

Its still BS, this is Reed Richards for godsake smartest man on the planet and good portion of the universe. Not Cain Marko.

That stuff about a Cannon powered by the Souls of Christ's Apostles, haha.

Don't you mean a army of battlebots controled by the souls of sacrificed babies.

Expletive Deleted

03-07-2007, 04:38 PM

How is it BS?

Reed built a spaceship to launch Hulk into space and land him on an uninhabited planet. Hulk damaged the ship in transit, it fell through a strange wormhole, and then it crashed. All this damage ruptured the warp core, which eventually blew up in an inhabited area.

I guess I'm just not seeing how Reed is being defamed, here.

CMBMOOL

03-07-2007, 04:54 PM

When I heard Ceiria was pregnent, I thought that it might be another "Betty" moment with what happen the last time. :(

I can't believe the Illuminati's ship blew up and destroyed a city, and these are the people who wanted to keep the Earth safe from another Stamford.
:mad:

Man if Ceriria's dies next issue, then I'm not going to be happy with what Pak build up to only to have her killed off. :(

Man learning that the Illuminati's ship caused an explosion, is just making me want the Hulk to Smash them faster. :o

XPac

03-07-2007, 05:02 PM

MAK15

03-07-2007, 05:14 PM

Yup... Reed, Tony and company one-upped Speedball for sure.

I wonder if this is how marvel will start all their big events... big explosions indirectly caused by careless superheroes.

i like big explosions, so...I guess ill be looking forward to more marvel events.
oh! I want the next big even to be started with renegade mixed up robot people!

Pendaran

03-07-2007, 05:25 PM

It seemed very clear to me that Pak used it as a way of giving the Hulk a motivation for destruction without making the Illuminati explicitly liable for the death and destruction.

Enough posts going "no, they /did/ try to kill the Hulk" "caused intergalactic Stamford" "one upped Speedball" "Marvel just made me despise Reed Richards" and etc seem to indicate people entirely reading it as more reasons to demand the deaths of the various involved. With indeed, various posts demanding the deaths of the various involved. So it seems like plenty of people read it like explicit liability. So if Pak's goal was to try and show otherwise, he perhaps didn't do so great a job. If he was trying to do the whole "make the Hulk look better by making his enemies look worse, take that Bendis", he did an /awesome/ job.

I guess I'm just not seeing how Reed is being defamed, here.

Builds a warp core that if it ever ruptures would take out a city seems to pretty strongly imply Reed's an idiot to me. He can't figure out that being a possiblity? Then again, Pak is the guy who had Reed be unable to do anything but make fumbling strawman arguements against Amadeus Cho as he got intellectually pantsed by him, so this actually fits in fine with his conception of Reed Richards.

AllisterH

03-07-2007, 05:35 PM

Pendaran

03-07-2007, 05:38 PM

Expletive Deleted

03-07-2007, 05:48 PM

Enough posts going "no, they /did/ try to kill the Hulk" "caused intergalactic Stamford" "one upped Speedball" "Marvel just made me despise Reed Richards" and etc seem to indicate people entirely reading it as more reasons to demand the deaths of the various involved. With indeed, various posts demanding the deaths of the various involved. So it seems like plenty of people read it like explicit liability.Well, sure. Everyone who wants to see the Hulk smash him some Iron Man sees it as a perfect casus belli. On the other hand, it's just as possible to go the other way and say that it was an accident that was in no way Reed's fault. Hell, you could even go so far as to blame it on the Hulk, if you want. He damaged the ship and caused the trip through the wormhole and the crash, after all.So if Pak's goal was to try and show otherwise, he perhaps didn't do so great a job. If he was trying to do the whole "make the Hulk look better by making his enemies look worse, take that Bendis", he did an /awesome/ job.I'm really at a loss, here. Did Pak give an interview where he bashed Bendis and I missed it, or something?Builds a warp core that if it ever ruptures would take out a city seems to pretty strongly imply Reed's an idiot to me. He can't figure out that being a possiblity? Then again, Pak is the guy who had Reed be unable to do anything but make fumbling strawman arguements against Amadeus Cho as he got intellectually pantsed by him, so this actually fits in fine with his conception of Reed Richards.He should've really thought about some cosmic ray shielding for his first experimental spaceship, too.

XPac

03-07-2007, 06:03 PM

Well, sure. Everyone who wants to see the Hulk smash him some Iron Man sees it as a perfect casus belli. On the other hand, it's just as possible to go the other way and say that it was an accident that was in no way Reed's fault. Hell, you could even go so far as to blame it on the Hulk, if you want. He damaged the ship and caused the trip through the wormhole and the crash, after all.I'm really at a loss, here. Did Pak give an interview where he bashed Bendis and I missed it, or something?He should've really thought about some cosmic ray shielding for his first experimental spaceship, too.

It really is a tough balancing act (not unlike Civil War I suppose) since you kind of want to create a scenario where no one is really right and no one is really wrong.

Hulk isn't evil, so you want to give him some reasonable rationale for readers to not turn against him when he returns to earth to smash the Illuminati.

But in the same breath, you can't make the Illuminati seem like villians either. I suppose this is as good a compromise as you can expect. I think this is a reasonable enough compromise... the Illuminati can certainly be faulted to a degree. Similiar to speedball, they definately screwed up. This was their Stamford. But they're not entirely responsible.

CMBMOOL

03-07-2007, 06:10 PM

It really is a tough balancing act (not unlike Civil War I suppose) since you kind of want to create a scenario where no one is really right and no one is really wrong.

Hulk isn't evil, so you want to give him some reasonable rationale for readers to not turn against him when he returns to earth to smash the Illuminati.

But in the same breath, you can't make the Illuminati seem like villians either. I suppose this is as good a compromise as you can expect. I think this is a reasonable enough compromise... the Illuminati can certainly be faulted to a degree. Similiar to speedball, they definately screwed up. This was their Stamford. But they're not entirely responsible.

Agreed and these are highly profiled heroes within the Illuminati, so if the truth comes out, their reputations with the other heores could be shattared. :(

Also the heroes opinions on the Hulk could change once the truth is revealed, and besides maybe they can learn that the monsters in the world doesn't have to have an ugly face. :(

tjarvis

03-07-2007, 06:20 PM

Kevinroc

03-07-2007, 06:25 PM

I'm wondering if the ship blowing up like it did wasn't part of a sabotage effort by Miek and Brood. After all, they had access to the ship before Hulk got there. And with Miek's people condemned with the loss of their queen, he really has no affinity for Sakaar either.

I'm going with sabotage myself.

I actually hadn't considered that. I was thinking about the people of Sakaar, as they were messing with something that they obviously didn't understand as a way of celebrating Hulk.

But Miek sabotaging it is certainly possible...

XPac

03-07-2007, 06:50 PM

I'm wondering if the ship blowing up like it did wasn't part of a sabotage effort by Miek and Brood. After all, they had access to the ship before Hulk got there. And with Miek's people condemned with the loss of their queen, he really has no affinity for Sakaar either.

I'm going with sabotage myself.

Well, that's a possible way to resolve WWH. Civil War may not have some evil mastermind behind it, but no one said WWH can't.

Pendaran

03-07-2007, 06:58 PM

I'm really at a loss, here. Did Pak give an interview where he bashed Bendis and I missed it, or something?

He took the view Bendis expressed, addressed it via a character that's his personal creation, basically did a point by point of why it's wrong, and had the character espousing said view come off as a comparative doofus with no real arguement. It didn't read particularly subtly.

He should've really thought about some cosmic ray shielding for his first experimental spaceship, too.

That's a bit thin for city nuking warp core when Reed constantly agonizes about that mistake and has until, say, Civil War or so, been portrayed as having entire issues about being thorough. His fear of screwing up like that again has even been something Doom has exploited.

Expletive Deleted

03-07-2007, 07:02 PM

That's a bit thin for city nuking warp core when Reed constantly agonizes about that mistake and has until, say, Civil War or so, been portrayed as having entire issues about being thorough. His fear of screwing up like that again has even been something Doom has exploited.So he can never realistically make a big mistake or a major miscalculation?

Pendaran

03-07-2007, 07:05 PM

Would you have said before, say, 7 months ago, that you'd find it plausible to see it written that he makes one that gets a city full of people full out killed?

XPac

03-07-2007, 07:08 PM

I guess the moral of the story is NEVER get in a rocket designed by Reed Richards. We learned that from day one of the character.

CMBMOOL

03-07-2007, 07:12 PM

I guess the moral of the story is NEVER get in a rocket designed by Reed Richards. We learned that from day one of the character.

Isn't that the truth. :D

Expletive Deleted

03-07-2007, 07:13 PM

Would you have said before, say, 7 months ago, that you'd find it plausible to see it written that he makes one that gets a city full of people full out killed?Cause a big explosion? Sure.

Rip a hole in space and time? Sure.

Almost end existence as we know it with his experimental anti-matter lint remover? Absolutely.

Build a spaceship that can't take a punch from the Hulk, a trip through a wormhole, and a crash landing? Every day and twice on Sundays.

IamtheRock3

03-07-2007, 07:14 PM

Enough posts going "no, they /did/ try to kill the Hulk" "caused intergalactic Stamford" "one upped Speedball" "Marvel just made me despise Reed Richards" and etc seem to indicate people entirely reading it as more reasons to demand the deaths of the various involved. With indeed, various posts demanding the deaths of the various involved. So it seems like plenty of people read it like explicit liability. So if Pak's goal was to try and show otherwise, he perhaps didn't do so great a job. If he was trying to do the whole "make the Hulk look better by making his enemies look worse, take that Bendis", he did an /awesome/ job.

Builds a warp core that if it ever ruptures would take out a city seems to pretty strongly imply Reed's an idiot to me. He can't figure out that being a possiblity? Then again, Pak is the guy who had Reed be unable to do anything but make fumbling strawman arguements against Amadeus Cho as he got intellectually pantsed by him, so this actually fits in fine with his conception of Reed Richards.

in fairness what was the changes of it landing on inahbited world even in an alien happy universe of marvel

I mean lot of distance between planets. A wormhole just HAPPEN to land him on a populated planet

Pendaran

03-07-2007, 07:17 PM

in fairness what was the changes of it landing on inahbited world even in an alien happy universe of marvel

I mean lot of distance between planets. A wormhole just HAPPEN to land him on a populated planet

It's not so much that as the whole exploding city thing. I don't really think that a half a year ago people would associate the name Reed Richards with, y'know, that.

1WEBHEAD

03-07-2007, 07:17 PM

I'm pretty sure that I've read that Hulk's not returning alone somewhere. So not all hope is lost for Hulk's queen.

Kevinroc

03-07-2007, 07:18 PM

Cause a big explosion? Sure.

Rip a hole in space and time? Sure.

Almost end existence as we know it with his experimental anti-matter lint remover? Absolutely.

Build a spaceship that can't take a punch from the Hulk, a trip through a wormhole, and a crash landing? Every day and twice on Sundays.

Super hero mistakes are responsible for a number of problems.

Ultron, anyone? (I know that's not Reed's fault but that was definitely a mistake from a comic book super hero genius that got many people killed.)

IamtheRock3

03-07-2007, 07:18 PM

It's not so much that as the whole exploding city thing. I don't really think that a half a year ago people would associate the name Reed Richards with, y'know, that.

Yea but heroes on all sides got some of ther pefection tainted

Pendaran

03-07-2007, 07:22 PM

Yea but heroes on all sides got some of ther pefection tainted

There's taint, and then there's a city full of dead people.

Cause a big explosion? Sure.

Rip a hole in space and time? Absolutely.

Almost end existence as we know it with his experimental anti-matter lint remover? Every day and twice on Sundays.

That's not what I asked. I was asking how plausible you'd find it pre Civil War/Planet Hulk/Etc. that Reed doing that kind of thing would be written as resulting in a large amount of corpses to his name.

It's one of those other things I find remarkable for instance when there was such hue and cry from various points about a death toll connected to the Hulk, but the idea that Reed now has one is just something of almost blase acceptance. And/or cries for his head.

IamtheRock3

03-07-2007, 07:29 PM

There's taint, and then there's a city full of dead people.

That's not what I asked. I was asking how plausible you'd find it pre Civil War/Planet Hulk/Etc. that Reed doing that kind of thing would be written as resulting in a large amount of corpses to his name.

It's one of those other things I find remarkable for instance when there was such hue and cry from various points about a death toll connected to the Hulk, but the idea that Reed now has one is just something of almost blase acceptance. And/or cries for his head.

Well guess getting use to it

Listen how many times has a hero vs hero fight cause Civlan harm..almost NEVER

Cival war, 53 dead at the end

Iron man killing diplomats to start a war

Hulk killing innocents now in his ramapges

and more stuff to come

apparently marvel thinks this stuff make it more realistic

Expletive Deleted

03-07-2007, 07:32 PM

It's one of those other things I find remarkable for instance when there was such hue and cry from various points about a death toll connected to the Hulk, but the idea that Reed now has one is just something of almost blase acceptance.Because it's only Reed's fault at several degrees remove and from a specific point of view.

And, it should be mentioned, it's not exactly a catastrophic paradigm shift to apply the idea of mass casualties caused by superhero activity all around once that line's already been crossed.

XPac

03-07-2007, 07:45 PM

Well guess getting use to it

Listen how many times has a hero vs hero fight cause Civlan harm..almost NEVER

Cival war, 53 dead at the end

Iron man killing diplomats to start a war

Hulk killing innocents now in his ramapges

and more stuff to come

apparently marvel thinks this stuff make it more realistic

Ultimate Reed Richards is also apparently responsible (at least indirectly) of threatening the Squadron Supreme's earth.

Heck, I'm still half expecting some writer to link Reed to the Annihilaiton Wave. I guess marvel has turned us a bit cynical as of late.

Yoda

03-08-2007, 07:07 AM

Great issue. I hope Carlo Pagleaguon (butchered that name) stays on Hulk for a long time.

As for Caiera, she survived being at ground zero for that bomb the emperor dropped on that city, so there's some hope she might make it out of this. And most of Hulk crew was near the epicenter of the ships warp core breach so some of them have to survive. At least we know Korg survives from the WWH promotional materials. Although her being pregnant makes her death almost a forgone conclusion. As sad a statement as that is.

Dragos

03-08-2007, 09:31 AM

As for Caiera, she survived being at ground zero for that bomb the emperor dropped on that city, so there's some hope she might make it out of this. And most of Hulk crew was near the epicenter of the ships warp core breach so some of them have to survive. At least we know Korg survives from the WWH promotional materials. Although her being pregnant makes her death almost a forgone conclusion. As sad a statement as that is.

Well...they did say that the next Hulk series would go in a new direction for the Hulk. I am sure that Hulk being a father would be a direction that has yet to be explored.

DoctorDoom

03-08-2007, 09:40 AM

I guess the moral of the story is NEVER get in a rocket designed by Reed Richards. We learned that from day one of the character.
Lol how true... And never EVER dorm with him...

stingerman

03-08-2007, 09:43 AM

I can't believe the Illuminati's ship blew up and destroyed a city, and these are the people who wanted to keep the Earth safe from another Stamford.
:mad:

Unless the Illuminati are behind Stamford and started the whole Civil War....in order to get control...

XPac

03-08-2007, 10:02 AM

Unless the Illuminati are behind Stamford and started the whole Civil War....in order to get control...

Even Tony won't go that far.

He'll blow up Atlanteans to get control (and that alone makes him a pretty big jerk), but school children would be way too much.

The Cool Thatguy

03-08-2007, 10:13 AM

Even Tony won't go that far.

He'll blow up Atlanteans to get control (and that alone makes him a pretty big jerk), but school children would be way too much.

I refuse to buy Frontline on the grounds of quality, so forgive this question please, but where did Stark blow up that Atlantean diplomat?

It's my understanding Stark blew up an Atlantis sleeper cell. Atlantis ain't got no right to have sleeper cells in another country, after all. Blowing up/attacking a diplomat is a little different, depending on where he was conducting his business.

Xanrn

03-08-2007, 10:32 AM

I am sorry but you better be writing that as a joke.

Lets see.

Warp Drive that goes boom when smashed to much.

+

Big Mean Green Retard who loves to Smash.

=

Accident waiting to Happen.

I can work that out, so I am pretty sure Reed Richards could.

Pak is ridiculus bias, this better turn out to be Miek and the Brood being stupid bugs.

Also for like the 3,000th time, Speedball was not responsible for NITRO'S actions.

Reed and the Illuminati are not responsible for an accident caused by the Green Retard and the Shadow Elders.

RagingSaxon

03-08-2007, 10:44 AM

To this day, I still don't understand what Reed et al did wrong.

I have the original issue where the Hulk is launched and the Illuminanti EXPLICITLY mention they are sending him to a nice planet with no other sentients around.

Isn't this what the Hulk wants?

Then the Hulk busts up the ship and basically is the reason why he crashlands. Furthermore, why the hell did the Hulk not check the engines for damage. Doesn't he have access to Banner a.k.a "I'm arguably one of Earth's 5 smartest people" mind or at the least, did it not occur to Banner?

The Hulk doesn't like getting lied to. The Hulk doesn't like getting tricked. If Richards et al were so smart, they might have figured that the Hulk would get pretty pissed off once he figured things out - how anyone can think Hulk would just sit there nicely twitteling his thumbs while he rode to hell-knows-where I don't know.

Second guessing and looking back at all the possibilities is silly. Why didn't the Hulk check the engines after he crashed landed? C'mon. Its a story, it wasn't part of the plot device. In the real world, those parts would have been so hot after burning their way through a planets atmosphere, you couldn't have done anything with them. Could Hulk have touched them? Sure. Would they have just melted or molded into junk? Probably. You can't bring real-world sensibility into a situation like this - you just have to practice that willful-suspension-of-disbelief and hop on for the ride.

MAK15

03-08-2007, 12:58 PM

I I can work that out, so I am pretty sure Reed Richards could.

.

you might have a hard time beleiving this, but alot of smart people are common-sense diffecient

Zel

03-08-2007, 01:01 PM

MAK15

03-08-2007, 01:03 PM

InfinityCorp

03-08-2007, 01:25 PM

If Richards et al were so smart, they might have figured that the Hulk would get pretty pissed off once he figured things out - how anyone can think Hulk would just sit there nicely twitteling his thumbs while he rode to hell-knows-where I don't know.

Second guessing and looking back at all the possibilities is silly. Why didn't the Hulk check the engines after he crashed landed? C'mon. Its a story, it wasn't part of the plot device.

#1) Alright guys, have you actually been reading the "Planet Hulk" story line from the beginning? If you have, you must already know, that it was -The Illuminati- that sent the Hulk into space. Not just Reed, not just Tony. Dr.Strange, Charles Xavier, Black Bolt, Tony Stark, and Reed Richards are all responsible for this. All equally. The only voice of dissention was Namor, which makes perfect sense looking back on it. You can not think of this Post-CW because CW hasn't happened for The Hulk. He is pissed at these 5 people right now, and will make each of them answer to him personally.

#2) "They tried to kill me". I tried to read a little deeper into this, but looking at it for what it is makes perfect sense to me. I do not care what the Illuminati thought, and Reed sounds like fool trying to justify this action as, "You asked to be left alone in peace, and now you can."
*** They put him in a metal tube and shot him into space... ***
That is about as close to trying to kill someone as you can get.

#3) I am pretty sure seeing how issues #103 & #104 tie together that Miek and The Brood did, in fact, sabotage the ship. If The Hulk loses another wife in the subsequent explosion well... His rage will become something even we haven't seen before.

#4) She-Hulk #16 holds a key to the future battle of WWH, and I am certain of this. Tony Stark is already planning a contingency plan for if the Hulk does return, and I am curious if anyone has any extended theories about, "Project Achilles"..?

Dragos

03-08-2007, 02:17 PM

Tony Stark is already planning a contingency plan for if the Hulk does return, and I am curious if anyone has any extended theories about, "Project Achilles"..?

I sounds to me like Tony/SHIELD is biting off more than they can chew. If they could not contain/control the Hulk, how do they think that they will be able to control several Hulk Level Villians?

Cthulhudrew

03-08-2007, 02:40 PM

#1) Alright guys, have you actually been reading the "Planet Hulk" story line from the beginning? If you have, you must already know, that it was -The Illuminati- that sent the Hulk into space. Not just Reed, not just Tony. Dr.Strange, Charles Xavier, Black Bolt, Tony Stark, and Reed Richards are all responsible for this. All equally. The only voice of dissention was Namor, which makes perfect sense looking back on it. You can not think of this Post-CW because CW hasn't happened for The Hulk. He is pissed at these 5 people right now, and will make each of them answer to him personally.

Actually, just to be a nitpicker, Xavier wasn't there either.

Berkey

03-08-2007, 02:41 PM

Hulk Jr.:evilsmile Hulk Jr. Smash

XPac

03-08-2007, 02:42 PM

I sounds to me like Tony/SHIELD is biting off more than they can chew. If they could not contain/control the Hulk, how do they think that they will be able to control several Hulk Level Villians?

They just need Reed to whip up a few more rockets, that's all.

Berkey

03-08-2007, 02:44 PM

#
#4) She-Hulk #16 holds a key to the future battle of WWH, and I am certain of this. Tony Stark is already planning a contingency plan for if the Hulk does return, and I am curious if anyone has any extended theories about, "Project Achilles"..?

Yea I've been reading she-hulk and noticed them rounding them up. Thats why I think some heroes are going to help Hulk because they learn the injustice the cause him and are prolly tired of seeing villians being treated as heroes and getting their rocks off beating the good guys up with no reprecussions. Should be good

stingerman

03-08-2007, 04:30 PM

ivesaidway2much

03-08-2007, 04:41 PM

Yea I've been reading she-hulk and noticed them rounding them up. Thats why I think some heroes are going to help Hulk because they learn the injustice the cause him and are prolly tired of seeing villians being treated as heroes and getting their rocks off beating the good guys up with no reprecussions. Should be goodI don't think Project Achilles is going to make it past She-hulk #18. Despite her occasional callousness towards the Hulk, I highly doubt Jen is going to let a team of supervillains she is essentially responsible for putting together run wild and kill her cousin. I figure that's why she's fighting Iron Man next issue.

I really hope Hulk Jr. survives. There are just so many fresh, new, and interesting story possibilities that stem from Hulk as a father.
Warp Drive that goes boom when smashed to much.

+

Big Mean Green Retard who loves to Smash.

=

Accident waiting to Happen.Sounds more like a murder attempt to me.

Loner

03-08-2007, 05:05 PM

Does the Hulk even realize he sent the ship off course? All he knows is he wound up on a planet where he nearly DID get killed. That was my interpretation of his "They tried to kill me."

Given Caiera seems to be nearly Hulk-level strength herself, I am assuming she survives this blast. Though why the Hulk wasn't drawn shielding her from the explosion baffles me.

Oh, and someone please tell me they are not planning to kill She-Hulk in #18 to make Hulk even madder. I'm a little concerned by all the teasers that WWH picks up seconds after the conclusion of She-Hulk #18. I really wanted the recently souped-up SH to kick Tony's ass.

CyberCoyote

03-08-2007, 05:21 PM

Oh, and someone please tell me they are not planning to kill She-Hulk in #18 to make Hulk even madder. I'm a little concerned by all the teasers that WWH picks up seconds after the conclusion of She-Hulk #18. I really wanted the recently souped-up SH to kick Tony's ass.

I can't imagine Shulkie dieing for this. Severely whomped and knocked into a coma by an Iron Man beer bottle or something maybe :)

She's got her own book, sales are steady. I mean, why kill off the title character in an ongoing..oh.

Been done, not again so soon :)

CMBMOOL

03-08-2007, 05:37 PM

Oh, and someone please tell me they are not planning to kill She-Hulk in #18 to make Hulk even madder. I'm a little concerned by all the teasers that WWH picks up seconds after the conclusion of She-Hulk #18. I really wanted the recently souped-up SH to kick Tony's ass.

No, Incredible Hulk #106 begins 10 seconds after She-Hulk #18, so she'll live through the current arc. :D

Fatguy

03-08-2007, 05:37 PM

I really, REALLY have been hoping Ciara (or however the hell you spell her name) lives through planet hulk and comes back to Earth with him.

Still hoping. But I doubt it.

areacode212

03-08-2007, 06:01 PM

Builds a warp core that if it ever ruptures would take out a city seems to pretty strongly imply Reed's an idiot to me. He can't figure out that being a possiblity?

The ship was intended to land on an uninhabited planet. Why would this be a concern for him?

vazel

03-08-2007, 06:14 PM

Is it too much to believe an engine capable of interstellar travel is that volatile when damaged? And oh yea, there's that one thing most people usually do when reading fiction, suspension of disbelief.

Pendaran

03-08-2007, 06:47 PM

There's a world of difference between being left alone (i.e. not having the army try to capture you every issue) and being marooned on an empty planet. That's the equivalent of a life sentence to solitary confinement. Hulk might not be the most social guy out there, but complete solitude and no contact at all is a very psychologically damaging thing.

Considering all the times that Banner has tried to completely isolate himself from sentient life, and the Hulk himself has cried out about how he wants everything to leave him alone, inbetween times when he instead decides he wants to smash up a whole bunch of things for displeasing him... that's really more called something Banner periodically tries to do to himself as is.

Does the Hulk even realize he sent the ship off course? All he knows is he wound up on a planet where he nearly DID get killed. That was my interpretation of his "They tried to kill me."

Considering all the error messages and sheer dissonance with the message of where they were sending him, and where he ended up?

#2) "They tried to kill me". I tried to read a little deeper into this, but looking at it for what it is makes perfect sense to me. I do not care what the Illuminati thought, and Reed sounds like fool trying to justify this action as, "You asked to be left alone in peace, and now you can."
*** They put him in a metal tube and shot him into space... ***
That is about as close to trying to kill someone as you can get.

So.. basically, NASA is a really elaborate plan to kill air force officers? I had no idea. Considering how frequent space travel is done from Marvel Earth, no, that's actually as far from trying to kill someone as you can get. Trying to kill someone, to be able to involve saying that with any justification should involve something like, say, a specific effort to kill someone, as intended to kill them. As someone else noted, this involves bizzaro world logic "going out of your way not to try and kill me, means you tried to kill me. Bizzaro am #1 genius."

Or: I find it pretty amusing that it takes all of the Hulk going "they tried to kill me!" for people to skip the "well, that's what the Hulk thinks" step, and go full bore into "he's objectively right, the Hulk saying that retroactively changes anything that showed they weren't trying to kill him!"

XPac

03-08-2007, 07:00 PM

Considering all the times that Banner has tried to completely isolate himself from sentient life, and the Hulk himself has cried out about how he wants everything to leave him alone, inbetween times when he instead decides he wants to smash up a whole bunch of things for displeasing him... that's really more called something Banner periodically tries to do to himself as is.

Maybe that's why they should have approached this as a the friends they claimed they were. Wait till he's Banner, then ASK HIM if he would mind being exiled. If Banner agreed to it, there would be no badguys in this situation.

Pendaran

03-08-2007, 07:01 PM

Maybe that's why they should have approached this as a the friends they claimed they were. Wait till he's Banner, then ASK HIM if he would mind being exiled. If Banner agreed to it, there would be no badguys in this situation.

And if all asking him does is trigger another bystander killing rampage? Banner himself has noted agreeing with what the Illuminati did to him. The Hulk personality has the problem.

ivesaidway2much

03-08-2007, 07:07 PM

And if all asking him does is trigger another bystander killing rampage? Banner himself has noted agreeing with what the Illuminati did to him. The Hulk personality has the problem.The Illuminati have allowed and aided the Hulk on so many of his bystander killing rampages, I find it kind of hard to believe that anyone could claim that preventing more of them was even a consideration for them.

Pendaran

03-08-2007, 07:10 PM

The Illuminati have allowed and aided the Hulk on so many of his bystander killing rampages, I find it kind of hard to believe that anyone could claim that preventing more of them was even a consideration for them.

Then you disagree with the writers stating what their motivations are *shrug* Even Pak concedes that as their concern.

XPac

03-08-2007, 07:12 PM

And if all asking him does is trigger another bystander killing rampage? Banner himself has noted agreeing with what the Illuminati did to him. The Hulk personality has the problem.

If Banner agrees with it, like you say then it really shouldn't trigger a killing rampage. And even if it does, with Dr. Strange standing right there that frankly shouldn't be much of a problem.

I just think a simple thing like asking him for his consent might have gone a long ways as far as preventing or at least minimizing the possible backlash that might follow screwing over one of the most powerful beings on the planet (who also happens to have some pretty powerful allies).

ivesaidway2much

03-08-2007, 07:15 PM

Then you disagree with the writers stating what their motivations are *shrug* Even Pak concedes that as their concern.Actually Pak [maybe it was Bendis (I can't remember if the tape played in the Illuminati one-shot)] had them lie about the Fury LMD, so I don't really see how thinking they are liars is incosistent with the rest of the story *shrugs*

Pendaran

03-08-2007, 07:16 PM

If Banner agrees with it, like you say then it really shouldn't trigger a killing rampage.

Why shouldn't it if it makes one of the other personalities in there angry and they assert control? As currently demonstrated, Banner is only something the Hulk lets out when he feels like it.

And even if it does, with Dr. Strange standing right there that frankly shouldn't be much of a problem.

Really? You can't suspend your disbelief that the Hulk would overpower them and go on a rampage anyway? It's one of the central conceits of World War Hulk that the collective power of the Illuminati members are not going to turn this into a one panel event.

I just think a simple thing like asking him for his consent might have gone a long ways as far as preventing or at least minimizing the possible backlash that might follow screwing over one of the most powerful beings on the planet (who also happens to have some pretty powerful allies).

Then you're not all that familliar with the other personalities inside Bruce Banner's head. Asking someone with MPD something that might hack off the other voices in his head isn't the most structured of choices.

Pendaran

03-08-2007, 07:17 PM

Actually Pak had them lie about the Fury LMD, so I don't really see how thinking they are liars is incosistent with the rest of the story *shrugs*

So, the whole conversation Bendis had them have with one another on the matter where they discussed their motivations with each other... never happened?

XPac

03-08-2007, 07:22 PM

Why shouldn't it if it makes one of the other personalities in there angry and they assert control? As currently demonstrated, Banner is only something the Hulk lets out when he feels like it.

Really? You can't suspend your disbelief that the Hulk would overpower them and go on a rampage anyway? It's one of the central conceits of World War Hulk that the collective power of the Illuminati members are not going to turn this into a one panel event.

Then you're not all that familliar with the other personalities inside Bruce Banner's head. Asking someone with MPD something that might hack off the other voices in his head isn't the most structured of choices.

I don't like Hulks odds against Dr. Strange, but it's possible he could get past them. It's possilbe their trap for Hulk could have failed too. No such thing as a full proof plan.

I simply believe that discussing this with Banner rather than lying and tricking him can achieve the same goal while POing a whole lot less people. I think the Hulk himself will have less reason to be mad at the Illuminait, and I think Hulks allies will likewise have less reason to be mad at them.

When it comes out what the Illuminati did to the Hulk, I'll wager a lot of people are going have issues with the way they handled this. And that backlash would at least be lessened if Banner himself consented and worked with them on this.

But I guess we can just agree to disagree that they handled it in the right way, and judge the end results as they unfold.

ivesaidway2much

03-08-2007, 07:24 PM

So, the whole conversation Bendis had them have with one another on the matter where they discussed their motivations with each other... never happened?Given that they are liars and accessories to murder many times over, I think they were more likely trying to cover their butts. Everything they attributed to the Hulk they realized at least in my reading (since they've aided him so many times) applied to themselves as well. If the Hulk is out of sight, he's out of mind. And so are their crimes.

Pendaran

03-08-2007, 07:31 PM

Given that they are liars and accessories to murder many times over, I think they were trying to cover their butts.

So basically, despite no one being in the room but each other, and sitting down to have an indepth conversation with each other on the matter, what Brian Michael Bendis was actually portraying was all of them lying anyway, in a private conversation.

You do know this has absolutely no intersection with what really happened in the comic?

I simply believe that discussing this with Banner rather than lying and tricking him can achieve the same goal while POing a whole lot less people.

Such as.. the Hulk personality that hates Banner and everything he agrees to? The other Hulk personality that wants to destroy all life? The Hulk personality that's currently in control? The Hulk personality that goes on a rampage when it all of discovers evidence that Banner was trying to cure himself? No, I think quite a few of the voices in there would still be epically enraged no matter what was done. Stark himself is personally familliar with the Hulk taking what amounts to internal notice of Banner and others trying to cure himself, and as a result going on a rampage.

But I guess we can just agree to disagree that they handled it in the right way, and judge the end results as they unfold.

The problem is that your statements ignore a lot of how the Hulk has been portrayed, and in a general common sense way, the issues of dealing with people clinically diagnosed with various mental disorders. Making one personality happy does nothing for the other personalities.

XPac

03-08-2007, 07:38 PM

Such as.. the Hulk personality that hates Banner and everything he agrees to? The other Hulk personality that wants to destroy all life? The Hulk personality that's currently in control? The Hulk personality that goes on a rampage when it all of discovers evidence that Banner was trying to cure himself? No, I think quite a few of the voices in there would still be epically enraged no matter what was done.

The problem is that your statements ignore a lot of how the Hulk has been portrayed, and in a general common sense way, the issues of dealing with people clinically diagnosed with various mental disorders. Making one personality happy does nothing for the other personalities.

Even if the Hulk is still mad about it (and I still believe the Hulk at least would be LESS mad about it because he wasn't deceived), I still would argue if you get Banners' consent, the backlash against the Illuminati's actions would be far less severe. Again, we're not just talking about the Hulk here. There are a LOT of people besides Hulk that will likely be mad about this. That anger in my opinion would be greatly diminished if they openly worked with Banner and had his consent.

ivesaidway2much

03-08-2007, 07:40 PM

So basically, despite no one being in the room but each other, and sitting down to have an indepth conversation with each other on the matter, what Brian Michael Bendis was actually portraying was all of them lying anyway, in a private conversation.

You do know this has absolutely no intersection with what really happened in the comic?
Bendis revealed for the first time that they were heinous criminals and liars. Willing to allow and help a madman on his murderous rampages for a decade and a half. One thing any decent criminal (or liar) learns is never to admit to a crime because you never know who could be listening or who they can trust. This doubt proves to be reasonable given that one of their own members in this private conversation had serious misgivings about their proposed actions. And I think even beforehand all the members of the Illuminati had more than enough reason not to trust Namor.

And once again they are liars so nothing they say can be taken at face value.

Pendaran

03-08-2007, 07:45 PM

Even if the Hulk is still mad about it (and I still believe the Hulk at least would be LESS mad about it because he wasn't deceived), I still would argue if you get Banners' consent, the backlash against the Illuminati's actions would be far less severe.

I'm pretty sure the personality in there that talked about exterminating the human race would disagree with your evaluation of the situation. Also the one who, again, goes on a rampage specifically because of things Banner agreed to. Your arguement basically has to ignore that these things exist.

Bendis revealed for the first time that they were heinous criminals. Willing to allow and help a madman on his murderous rampages for a decade and a half. One thing any decent criminal learns is never to admit to a crime because you never know who could be listening or who they can trust. This doubt proves to be reasonable given that one of their own members in this private conversation had serious misgivings about their proposed actions. And I think even beforehand all the members of the Illuminati had more than enough reason not to trust Namor.

You do understand on some level that according to the person who wrote that scene, you're making this all up?

ivesaidway2much

03-08-2007, 07:54 PM

You do understand on some level that according to the person who wrote that scene, you're making this all up?Yeah, I fully realize that. But the person that wrote that scene didn't fully consider the ramifications of what was said. If you look at it as heroes trying to prevent senseless deaths you get the Bendis fairy tale reading. But if you reread the Illuminati one-shot realizing what kind of people these "heroes" really are. My interpretation is much more logical and "realistic". You can't take the moral high ground when you helped the person you're punishing to commit millions of murders. Their words simply don't match with their reality if you use a good guy interpretation. Can you give me a reason why Bendis didn't mention the huge amount of blame they share with the Hulk?

XPac

03-08-2007, 07:55 PM

I'm pretty sure the personality in there that talked about exterminating the human race would disagree with your evaluation of the situation. Also the one who, again, goes on a rampage specifically because of things Banner agreed to. Your arguement basically has to ignore that these things exist.

I'm not ignoring it... I do agree that Hulk might still be very very mad. But it's not like the way the Illuminati handled things won't get that same result (if anything he's likely to be madder).

And the thing that your arguement is ignoring is the issue that there are more people involved than just Hulk. Again, the way the Illuminanti handled the situation will likely get A LOT of people angry. Dealing with an angry Hulk is bad enough without having to factor in a lot of other angry people.

There's simply something to be said about trust and respect. The way the Illuminati dealt with this and several other things will only undermind their community further, and in the long run that isn't going to do anyone any favors. A LOT of unecessary headaches could be avoided if they just tried sitting down with Banner and working with him on this. Even if that approach doesn't completely negate the problems with the Hulk it will likely at least lessed the problems they will have with other people.

IamtheRock3

03-08-2007, 08:01 PM

Is he talking about extermenating the human Race though. Or getting Revenger on those who wrong him. For all he know it was Sheild and the goverment

THANKS TO THE ILLUMANATI

All he know is they tried to kill him

and mistake or NO mistakes. Those heroes reponble for what would be an Act of war

If America accident drop a nuke on the nation after doing something kind of Shady a OPPS MY BAD would not cut it

it be an act of war.

And For all the talk HULK is a Homicdial Monster. Apparently he was human enough for them to call him to Join the Avenger, or Ask him when they needed help for years. So he was good enough to be a team member, he good enough to learn the troop. If not dont ask for his help EVER. He earn some respect. If not find, but better not here they say "Uhhh Hulk ONSLAUGHT back again, we need you"

Also now they got banner AND the Hulk mad at them

One personality mad at you enough, but both. Banner held hulk at Bay.

Pendaran

03-08-2007, 08:08 PM

Yeah, I fully realize that. But the person that wrote that scene didn't fully consider the ramifications of what was said. If you look at it as heroes trying to prevent senseless deaths you get the Bendis fairy tale reading. But if you reread the Illuminati one-shot realizing what kind of people these "heroes" really are. My interpretation is much more logical and "realistic". You can't take the moral high ground when you helped the person you're punishing to commit millions of murders. Their words simply don't match with their reality if you use a good guy interpretation.

As long as you realize you're completely fabricating all this from nowhere land.

I'm not ignoring it... I do agree that Hulk might still be very very mad. But it's not like the way the Illuminati handled things won't get that same result (if anything he's likely to be madder).

If the Hulk has demonstrated that he goes on rampages worsened by discovering when Banner has agreed to something to limit the range of effect of the Hulk, or full out try to cure himself, while talking about smashing everyone involved with what he's come across no, he's really only going to be as mad.

In that sense, they may as well try to do something that at least minimizes that particular risk.

And the thing that your arguement is ignoring is the issue that there are more people involved than just Hulk. Again, the way the Illuminanti handled the situation will likely get A LOT of people angry. Dealing with an angry Hulk is bad enough without having to factor in a lot of other angry people.

Well, according to the spoilers, most of Earth is going to be against the Hulk, so it doesn't seem like "a lot" actually applies here.

A LOT of unecessary headaches could be avoided if they just tried sitting down with Banner and working with him on this.

Or created more headaches if all that did was trigger another rampage, as Banner attempting to work things out actually has in the past.

Even if that approach doesn't completely negate the problems with the Hulk it will likely at least lessed the problems they will have with other people.

It wouldn't negate any of the problems with the Hulk, if one does not ignore how the Hulk's personalities have reacted in all kinds of situations, and the things they have said. It even specifically invites the chance of another rampage.

As for other people? Seems like people like the Thing agreed with the idea to send the Hulk away. And I kinda doubt the human race generally, considering that things like, say, their armies try to blow the guy up would disagree with, say, trying to banish the Hulk from earth. And looking at the projected list of who's going to be on the Hulk's side that are denizens of Marvel Earth, they're going to have problems with.. the old Champions of LA+She Hulk+Amadeus Cho and Doc Samson. That's not exactly as terrifying as it could be.

The Hulk is on record as previously viewing attempts by Banner to, say, mitigate the Hulk, as something for which he must take smashy revenge on everyone involved while wrecking whatever around him was part of such. I don't see it going all that much different. They send him into space, the Hulk quite likely rampages about it anyway, things ensue as they did. The main difference then is when the Hulk comes back, he lacks the sheer overwhelming advantage 8 or so native metas siding with him will bring.

Pendaran

03-08-2007, 08:12 PM

Is he talking about extermenating the human Race though. Or getting Revenger on those who wrong him. For all he know it was Sheild and the goverment

Mmmno, the Hulk personality that would talk about exterminating the human race did so back in the 60s.

All he know is they tried to kill him

No, all he thinks is that they tried to kill him.

And For all the talk HULK is a Homicdial Monster. Apparently he was human enough for them to call him to Join the Avenger, or Ask him when they needed help for years. So he was good enough to be a team member, he good enough to learn the troop. If not dont ask for his help EVER. He earn some respect. If not find, but better not here they say "Uhhh Hulk ONSLAUGHT back again, we need you"

He's also been good enough for them to periodically send Thor to try and put down, good enough for them to try and help Banner permanently end the existance of the Hulk, good enough for them..

It's really rather varied with what mood the Hulk's been in that day and what he was doing recently.

Also now they got banner AND the Hulk mad at them

Banner agrees with what they did, so no, that's just wrong.

One personality mad at you enough, but both. Banner held hulk at Bay.

Again, you're wrong. Banner, among other things, wants to kill himself at that. Banner has also gone through periods of being completely subsumed by the various incarnations of the Hulk, despite whatever his own wishes are.

XPac

03-08-2007, 08:23 PM

As long as you realize you're completely fabricating all this from nowhere land.

If the Hulk has demonstrated that he goes on rampages worsened by discovering when Banner has agreed to something to limit the range of effect of the Hulk, or full out try to cure himself, while talking about smashing everyone involved with what he's come across no, he's really only going to be as mad.

In that sense, they may as well try to do something that at least minimizes that particular risk.

Well, according to the spoilers, most of Earth is going to be against the Hulk, so it doesn't seem like "a lot" actually applies here.

Or created more headaches if all that did was trigger another rampage, as Banner attempting to work things out actually has in the past.

It wouldn't negate any of the problems with the Hulk, if one does not ignore how the Hulk's personalities have reacted in all kinds of situations, and the things they have said. It even specifically invites the chance of another rampage.

As for other people? Seems like people like the Thing agreed with the idea to send the Hulk away. And I kinda doubt the human race generally, considering that things like, say, their armies try to blow the guy up would disagree with, say, trying to banish the Hulk from earth. And looking at the projected list of who's going to be on the Hulk's side that are denizens of Marvel Earth, they're going to have problems with.. the old Champions of LA+She Hulk+Amadeus Cho and Doc Samson. That's not exactly as terrifying as it could be.

The Hulk is on record as previously viewing attempts by Banner to, say, mitigate the Hulk, as something for which he must take smashy revenge on everyone involved while wrecking whatever around him was part of such. I don't see it going all that much different. They send him into space, the Hulk quite likely rampages about it anyway, things ensue as they did. The main difference then is when the Hulk comes back, he lacks the sheer overwhelming advantage 8 or so native metas siding with him will bring.

Again, if the Hulk goes on a rampage then I do think with Dr. Strange there its believable enough that they can deal with him.

And the issue goes beyond merely the Hulks' allies (though I'll wager they will present enough of a problem to justify NOT handling the things they way they did). This along with the other things the Illuminati did will likely create tension for the entire superhero community. Even many of the ones that aren't going to side with Hulk I'll wager will be upset because of the way the did it, and the way they concealed it. Something they wouldn't have to do if they handled it differently.

But maybe you're right... maybe World War Hulk will end up being no big deal and the way the Illuminati handled things won't have severe consequences. And maybe the hero community will just shrug their shoulders apathetically over how the Illuminati handled the Hulk without there being any kind of personal cost. I have doubts... but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Pendaran

03-08-2007, 08:37 PM

Again, if the Hulk goes on a rampage then I do think with Dr. Strange there its believable enough that they can deal with him.

The central conceit of an upcoming crossover is that this is not so. Are ya saying WWH is not a believable situation then? If we're going with Strange being all badassed, the Hulk's armies wouldn't really matter to him as an obstacle.

And the issue goes beyond merely the Hulks' allies (though I'll wager they will present enough of a problem to justify NOT handling the things they way they did). This along with the other things the Illuminati did will likely create tension for the entire superhero community. Even many of the ones that aren't going to side with Hulk I'll wager will be upset because of the way the did it, and the way they concealed it. Something they wouldn't have to do if they handled it differently.

Even something as out there as Civil War split the superhero community in half, with She Hulk herself telling Reed how awesome things are as "Daredevil" was hauled away to prison in the insanity making dimension. This seems likely.. to do far less, as far as traumatizing the superhero community for years to come on some deep level. The people affected by it seem to be people that are going to be affected for personal reasons, like Jen. Hell, a whole bunch of superheroes have done things like promote the idea of euthanizing the Scarlet Witch whether she wants it or not.

But maybe you're right... maybe World War Hulk will end up being no big deal and the way the Illuminati handled things won't have severe consequences. And maybe the hero community will just shrug their shoulders apathetically over how the Illuminati handled the Hulk without there being any kind of personal cost. I have doubts... but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

We've been told a few times that the crossover will not have as important ramifications as the one that just happened by Tom Brevoort. I'm sure one or two people might die. And I'm sure that it will seem important at the time. But the IGN interview for example noted that among other things, it won't be undoing the changes made by Civil War.

drwho

03-08-2007, 08:39 PM

XPac

03-08-2007, 08:47 PM

The central conceit of an upcoming crossover is that this is not so. Are ya saying WWH is not a believable situation then? If we're going with Strange being all badassed, the Hulk's armies wouldn't really matter to him as an obstacle.

Even something as out there as Civil War only split the superhero community in half, with She Hulk herself telling Reed how awesome things are as "Daredevil" was hauled away to prison in the insanity making dimension. This seems likely.. to do far less. The people affected by it seem to be people that are going to be affected for personal reasons, like Jen. Hell, a whole bunch of superheroes have done things like promote the idea of euthanizing the Scarlet Witch whether she wants it or not.

We've been told a few times that the crossover will not have as important ramifications as the one that just happened by Tom Brevoort. I'm sure one or two people might die. And I'm sure that it will seem important at the time. But the IGN interview for example noted that among other things, it won't be undoing the changes made by Civil War.

On paper Hulk by HIMSELF shouldn't be a problem for Strange (and if you feel otherwise, I'd be more than happy to that the issue over the the Rumbles board). His armies might depending on who is in them... but in a situation where they're just talking to Banner, if he Hulks out I think Strange can handle it.

But truthfully even with allies it's believable enough that Strange can handle it. So I imagine in the context of WWH after a bit of fighting Strange and Hulk, being former friends, will talk it out and come to some kind of understanding.

And I don't think WWH will undo anything Civil War did... I think it'll just make the problems that CW started WORSE. The hero communiity divided over CW... I think the already fractured community will be struck with yet another blow.

But again, if you feel it won't be a big deal we can agree to disagree and see how it turns out. Myself, I'm expecting fireworks.

XPac

03-08-2007, 08:50 PM

If the super hero community were so concerned about the hulk they all should have got together and taken him down. From what I read I dont see anyone in the FF having problems with Reed's decision considering he almost killed the Thing last time. The Hulk should take responsibility in his own mind for some of the chaos he has caused. It is still a little hard to tell what type of personality this Hulk really has. I dont think it has been defined too well.

Yeah... I'm not sure the FF would have problems with Reed sending Hulk away on a rocket. HOWEVER... Reed doing this without telling them might be more of the issue. By itself its minor... but just coming off Civil War it's be a problem.

Reed as it is now is on shakey ground with his wife. Once the things the Illuminati did become public, I'll wager Reed will be back in the doghouse if he's not already still there.

Pendaran

03-08-2007, 08:58 PM

And I don't think WWH will undo anything Civil War did... I think it'll just make the problems that CW started WORSE. The hero communiity divided over CW... I think the already fractured community will be struck with yet another blow.

I simply don't see it being comparable to the one Civil War struck, when a lot of the hero community aren't big fans of the Hulk as is, and people like David Finch have blabbed how most of Marvel Earth is going to oppose the Hulk. And when people talking about, say, forcibly euthanizing the Scarlet Witch didn't have much of an effect either.

So I imagine in the context of WWH after a bit of fighting Strange and Hulk, being former friends, will talk it out and come to some kind of understanding.

I'm more predicting some OWAW style, Strange gets punked out anyway kind of thing, but we'll see.

But again, if you feel it won't be a big deal we can agree to disagree and see how it turns out. Myself, I'm expecting fireworks.

I'm sure the fighting will be plenty firey. The long term social effects, not so much at all.

XPac

03-08-2007, 09:10 PM

I simply don't see it being comparable to the one Civil War struck, when a lot of the hero community aren't big fans of the Hulk as is, and people like David Finch have blabbed how most of Marvel Earth is going to oppose the Hulk. And when people talking about, say, forcibly euthanizing the Scarlet Witch didn't have much of an effect either.

I'm more predicting some OWAW style, Strange gets punked out anyway kind of thing, but we'll see.

I'm sure the fighting will be plenty firey. The long term social effects, not so much at all.

I'm sure many people are oppossed to the Hulk... the fault if the Illuminati will likely be less what they did and more how they did it. My point was not that they shouldn't deal with Hulk, but rather that they should have done so differently.

The problem isn't just the actual fighting (though again, I'll wager that alone will be justification enough NOT to have handled it the way they did). It's the issues of trust within the hero community that have already been strained because of the Civil War. In what ideally should have been a time of healing will instead be more of the same.

Of course, this is just speculation on my part. Maybe the end result of this secret organization being exposed will be a lot of heroes shrugging their shoulders apathetically. But again, I doubt it... I expect some fireworks. I think they did a lot of things that a lot of their friends will have a problem with. Kharmicallly speaking WWH will be them getting bitten in the @$$ for those things.

Pendaran

03-08-2007, 09:15 PM

XPac

03-08-2007, 09:31 PM

And I really doubt that they'll have long term signifiance on par with something like, say, the death of Captain America, when Marvel themselves keep talking about its overall importance only in terms of setting up some next act for the Hulk, mentioning the results of Civil War will not change, that the crossover itself is not as important in the grand scheme of thing, and Quesada saying how at the end of the day, it's just meant to be a bunch of splashy fights to "cleanse the palate" after something deep and indepth that he feels that Civil War was.

*shrugs*

That doesn't match with a lot of comments made to date on the crossover. I realize you like to talk about comeuppance coming for Tony and whoever for Civil War, Silent War, etc. and talk about karma and how everyone's going to pay and have lots and lots of posts to that effect, but if you're looking for long term payback or whatever, I get the feeling you're going to be dissapointed.

Well, perhaps you have heard comments about people being happy and thrilled about the Illuminati and the things they've done... I'm just skeptical. If fact I beleive Bendis has said multiple times that when the Illuminati is exposed people will be mad... but who knows, maybe he's just yanking our chains.

And the fact that there is going to be a war over this is enough comeuppance for me. Narratively speaking, I do believe there needs to be a cost for acting the way the Illuminati did. Thankfully, in the comic world you unlike in the real one negative consequences for misdeeds are basically a given. The lied and manipulated a lot of people and poof... a war drops on their laps. That's consequence enough for me, regardless of who wins or loses. Either way, theres a cost. And hopefully a lessen learned because of that cost. As long as that happens, I don't see myself being disappointed at all.

Pendaran

03-08-2007, 09:39 PM

If fact I beleive Bendis has said multiple times that when the Illuminati is exposed people will be mad... but who knows, maybe he's just yanking our chains.

There's a difference between mad and "ooh, the changes will affect things forever and ever!" "karmic payback biting them in the @SS!" and etc. Especially if, say, for example, the changes of Civil War aren't going to be unmade. You lose a lot of room at that point to talk about the great big long term damage.

Or as an example: I missed where Mighty Avengers is only planned to run up until about World War Hulk, and then, I don't know, the entire team deserts because everyone becomes shocked and traumatized by the latest "fracturing" of the superhero community. The title isn't even crossing over into WWH.

That's consequence enough for me, regardless of who wins or loses. Either way, theres a cost. And hopefully a lessen learned because of that cost.

If, let's just take Tony Stark as an example, he's still at the end of the day Director of SHEILD, sponsor of the Mighty Avengers, and etc, etc, etc, I doubt he's going to have ultimately lost anything, or learned anything. And it doesn't seem like any of that's actually going to change, so...

I'm just skeptical

It reads more that you want really, really bad things to happen to a set of characters, which, sure, want that away, but reading into things to a certain degree which nothing really supports you so doing is something else.

XPac

03-08-2007, 09:55 PM

There's a difference between mad and "ooh, the changes will affect things forever and ever!" "karmic payback biting them in the @SS!" and etc. Especially if, say, for example, the changes of Civil War aren't going to be unmade. You lose a lot of room at that point to talk about the great big long term damage.

Or as an example: I missed where Mighty Avengers is only planned to run up until about World War Hulk, and then, I don't know, the entire team deserts because everyone becomes shocked and traumatized by the latest "fracturing" of the superhero community. The title isn't even crossing over into WWH.

If, let's just take Tony Stark as an example, he's still at the end of the day Director of SHEILD, sponsor of the Mighty Avengers, and etc, etc, etc, I doubt he's going to have ultimately lost anything, or learned anything. And it doesn't seem like any of that's actually going to change, so...

It reads more that you want really, really bad things to happen to a set of characters, which, sure, want that away, but reading into things to a certain degree which nothing really supports you so doing is something else.

I never said changes that will effect anyone forever and ever. I simply am saying that a lot of people are gonig to be mad... it will cause problems that probably could have been avoided. I still stand by the kharmic payback statement though.

And yes, Tony will still be director of SHIELD. The point isn't what Tony will lose, but rather what he hopefully will learn. The point is him and the rest of the Illuminati seeing the potential harm that occurs because the Illuminati acted a certain way, and hopefully learning NOT to act that way in the future to avoid things like this happening again.

And yes, I do want really really bad things to happen... but I want those things to have context. I don't want bad things to happen just for the sake of having bad things happen. I want that to become a part of the larger story being told here.

Pendaran

03-08-2007, 10:05 PM

I simply am saying that a lot of people are gonig to be mad... it will cause problems that probably could have been avoided.

That will not have the same effect that things that happened in Civil War had, for example.

And yes, Tony will still be director of SHIELD. The point isn't what Tony will lose, but rather what he hopefully will learn. The point is him and the rest of the Illuminati seeing the potential harm that occurs because the Illuminati acted a certain way, and hopefully learning NOT to act that way in the future to avoid things like this happening again.

Previous to all of this, the people involved with Civil War, and World War Hulk, did things like have even bigger meetings beyond Illuminati size where they debated whether or not to euthanize the Scarlet Witch against her will, and quite a lot of them wanted to choose "yes".

I also find it ironic to talk about how you hope they learn something from this, when part of this thread has been going on about how Reed, for example, shouldn't have learned anything from, say, the accident that made the Fantastic Four, and it's entirely plausible he'd still be screwing up like his most recent example.

If characters aren't supposed to have learned anything when you don't want them to, they're unlikely to learn something when you do want them to, simply because your desire has changed.

That or you have interesting parameters for when you require them to learn nothing, and when you require them to learn something.

I want that to become a part of the larger story being told here.

A story intended to be a "sorbet" after Civil War, doesn't seem like it's going to have an after school special morality effect on the Marvel Universe.

Or, if Reed can't learn "be more thorough about my spaceships", as you've argued, kinda doubt him and the others are going to take from this the long term lesson you hope for. Especially the ones that end up losing nothing at all in the long term.

XPac

03-08-2007, 10:29 PM

That will not have the same effect that things that happened in Civil War had, for example.

Previous to all of this, the people involved with Civil War, and World War Hulk, did things like have even bigger meetings beyond Illuminati size where they debated whether or not to euthanize the Scarlet Witch against her will, and quite a lot of them wanted to choose "yes".

I also find it ironic to talk about how you hope they learn something from this, when part of this thread has been going on about how Reed, for example, shouldn't have learned anything from, say, the accident that made the Fantastic Four, and it's entirely plausible he'd still be screwing up like his most recent example.

If characters aren't supposed to have learned anything when you don't want them to, they're unlikely to learn something when you do want them to, simply because your desire has changed.

That or you have interesting parameters for when you require them to learn nothing, and when you require them to learn something.

A story intended to be a "sorbet" after Civil War, doesn't seem like it's going to have an after school special morality effect on the Marvel Universe.

Or, if Reed can't learn "be more thorough about my spaceships", as you've argued, kinda doubt him and the others are going to take from this the long term lesson you hope for. Especially the ones that end up losing nothing at all in the long term.

In regards to people wanting to kill off Wanda, I'm not sure 2 people really qualifies as "quite a lot." But the point is that it was just people sitting around talking. Nothing innately wrong with that. It's what the heroes SHOULD do.

Had Emma and Logan decided to sneak off and try to kill Wanda beyind everyone's back then not tell anyone they did it, I might argue comparable consequences would need to be applied. But in the meeting at the start of House of M they didn't do anything wrong... hell, they didn't do anything period. No I don't think any kharmic backlash was in the works.

Now in regards to Reed learning something about the rocket... that was really a conversation you had with someone else. I believe my contribution to that conversation was something to the effect of "never getting in a rocket designed by Reed Richards" (which for the record was more a joke comment than anything else). Not sure how much irony you can really milk out of that in regards to ones parameters for learing. But yeah, it would be nice if Reed was more careful about his rocket ships and learned from his mistakes there too.

But maybe they won't learn anything from this as I hope. But if they've incapable of appreciating the consequences of those actions beyond whether they have personally lost anything or not, then the problem is far worse than I though. Especially for a director of SHIELD. But I guess we'll have to wait and see how that turns out.

InfinityCorp

03-08-2007, 11:04 PM

So.. basically, NASA is a really elaborate plan to kill air force officers? I had no idea.
* Well, they don't have a one way ticket out of the Solar System, so this really doesn't apply.

Considering how frequent space travel is done from Marvel Earth, no, that's actually as far from trying to kill someone as you can get.

* Not sure I really agree with this. Other than Sentry, Thor, and mabey a handful of other characters that are active on "Earth" I can't really think of many that would survive being exiled to another planet "in a galaxy far, far away". Reed has a poor track record with space travel "accidents" so I stand by my assertion.

I find it pretty amusing that it takes all of the Hulk going "they tried to kill me!" for people to skip the "well, that's what the Hulk thinks" step, and go full bore into "he's objectively right, the Hulk saying that retroactively changes anything that showed they weren't trying to kill him!"

* Yes, and No... This actually does sum up my knee-jerk reaction to this quote. But, I remember reading the Illuminati flashback, and cheering when I saw the look of utter disgust on Namor's face when the Hulk's exile is proposed.(The New Avengers: Illuminati #1). It is not only the fact that, there are billions of anomalies that would disrupt unmanned space travel of this magnitude. But, when the Hulk says, "they tried to kill me", it ultimately refreshed my distain for the underhanded betrayal the Illuminati took part in. Professor X was, indeed, not at the meeting but they state his justification for exile was that after reading Bruce's mind that if he(Bruce) could kill The Hulk, and he has tried, he would...

I just think a simple thing like asking him for his consent might have gone a long ways as far as preventing or at least minimizing the possible backlash that might follow screwing over one of the most powerful beings on the planet (who also happens to have some pretty powerful allies).

* I just agree this would have changed the situation from a betrayal to a series of mistakes and miscalculation that only Banner can blame himself for. It just seems a little too convenient that the one force, if any, that could truly muck up the Pro-Reg. plans is the very same force they decide to send off the planet because they "care" about him.

XPac

03-08-2007, 11:15 PM

* I just agree this would have changed the situation from a betrayal to a series of mistakes and miscalculation that only Banner can blame himself for. It just seems a little too convenient that the one force, if any, that could truly muck up the Pro-Reg. plans is the very same force they decide to send off the planet because they "care" about him.

Well, I certainly wouldn't say it was beyond the realm of believability that Stark had an alternate agenda to launch Hulk in space. Mr. Futurist Stark did seem to know in advance that the registration was coming... maybe taking Hulk off the board was an early step.

The way Frontline ended up connecting the dots, it really did seem like a lot of seemingly unrelated things were in fact a part of a larger more elaborate plot on Starks part. It's speculation at this point... but I certainly think it's something to think about it.

Pendaran

03-08-2007, 11:24 PM

In regards to people wanting to kill off Wanda, I'm not sure 2 people really qualifies as "quite a lot." But the point is that it was just people sitting around talking. Nothing innately wrong with that. It's what the heroes SHOULD do.

And if they'd decided "let's kill her" instead of peeking in to have a look at her before deciding to kill her or not? The big rant about WWH is the secrecy, and illegality. They don't exactly have a legal right to kill Wanda Maximoff, and they did things like basically try to keep the meeting secret from, say, her actual family. You talk about people learning and changing and how this act will have massive ramifications. I point out they've been doing this kind of thing for over a year now, and no one's exactly learned or grown or changed in the direct superhero community that's particularly of note, except for Pietro, who's insane again, and some D list X-men who are now powerless. Wanda's still floating around crazy, and Hawkeye didn't stay dead.

Had Emma and Logan decided to sneak off and try to kill Wanda beyind everyone's back then not tell anyone they did it, I might argue comparable consequences would need to be applied. But in the meeting at the start of House of M they didn't do anything wrong... hell, they didn't do anything period. No I don't think any kharmic backlash was in the works.

Really? Basically saying "before we decide to kill her, let's pay her a visit" doesn't tell you they'd usurped the right of life and death over her? They didn't call off whether or not to keep discussing what to do about her, they decided to put it off until after a visit. That people beyond Logan and Emma were starting to seem receptive to the arguement to the point where it had to be called off for "let's take a look at her first"? That they didn't include, say, her brother, and that House of M was basically triggered by Pietro only being able to tell that some meeting he was excluded from to talk about killing his sister was going on? I'm noting quite a bit of similarities in terms of underlying principle. I realize you only like to talk about how bad the Illuminati are, and the really bad things that should happen to them, and that even till recently you've been generally questioning of the whole "Hulk killing people" thing, but come on. Having a meeting to discuss something like that, that's pretty bad. It's not much different from the Illuminati having a meeting to discuss shooting the Hulk into space. Hell, at least the Illuminati didn't table "how about we just try to murder him instead" as legitimate subject matter.

Regardless though of your efforts to defend it, it stands as an example, that there are members of the superhero community not the Illuminati who entirely believe in this kind of thing, to the point of stuff like secret family excluding meetings to talk about forcibly euthanizing someone they find dangerous, and believe in acting on it. Something like what happened with the Hulk thusly? Doesn't seem like it's going to be such a driving, long term psychological wedge like the issue of registration was, even if you'd like it to be.

Now in regards to Reed learning something about the rocket... that was really a conversation you had with someone else. I believe my contribution to that conversation was something to the effect of "never getting in a rocket designed by Reed Richards" (which for the record was more a joke comment than anything else). Not sure how much irony you can really milk out of that in regards to ones parameters for learing. But yeah, it would be nice if Reed was more careful about his rocket ships and learned from his mistakes there too.

Ok, then let me put it like this: Among the points this story now includes is that Reed in fact can't learn from mistakes like that, and does not do so. Why should he learn something from this if he doesn't really end up losing anything particularly, which, considering he's not slated to lose anything particularly..

But maybe they won't learn anything from this as I hope. But if they've incapable of appreciating the consequences of those actions beyond whether they have personally lost anything or not, then the problem is far worse than I though. Especially for a director of SHIELD. But I guess we'll have to wait and see how that turns out.

The people at Marvel are specifically saying this crossover is meant to lack the kind of long term emotional traumatizing and fracturing effects that Civil War had. Quesada is the one calling it a "sorbet" to specifically cleanse out readers of all that kind of thing. Other editors are noting that it won't be as important, that it will not undo what have been larger changes to the Marvel Universe. It is crossing into far fewer titles. Wanting seriously bad things to happen to the Illuminati, and people to hate on them a lot, for a continuing and significant way is nice, and certainly, dislike whatever characters you want, but it doesn't really jive with the perspective Marvel editorial seems to have, which is that this is going to be a bunch of big, splashy fights.

Something for instance like, hoping that it "puts Reed back in the doghouse" with Sue and disrupt their current efforts at reconciliation. Fantastic Four isn't even a tie in issue. Is it really plausible to hope for something like that then, or is it really just wishful thinking from wanting some badness to come Reed's way that actually impacts him?

Pendaran

03-08-2007, 11:34 PM

* Well, they don't have a one way ticket out of the Solar System, so this really doesn't apply.

You said this:

*** They put him in a metal tube and shot him into space... ***
That is about as close to trying to kill someone as you can get.

So the fact remains that people are put into metal tubes and shot into space all the time. We don't generally accuse NASA of homicide.

Those human beings in those metal tubes being for instance, far less powerful than the Hulk, and far more at risk of death even on their journeys just out of orbit. We still don't note they're either trying to commit suicide, or that NASA has a really overly elaborate conspiracy to try and kill various scientists and air force officers.

* Not sure I really agree with this. Other than Sentry, Thor, and mabey a handful of other characters that are active on "Earth" I can't really think of many that would survive being exiled to another planet "in a galaxy far, far away". Reed has a poor track record with space travel "accidents" so I stand by my assertion.

Then your assertion ignores comic books. The Hulk himself has traveled into space many a time, and come back alive. And beyond that to other dimensions and the like. Actually, it's kinda funny, Strange full out shot him outside of reality and into dimensions where he was nearly, repeatedly killed by what lives there, yet there he managed a lack of "Strange tried to kill me!"

* Yes, and No... This actually does sum up my knee-jerk reaction to this quote. But, I remember reading the Illuminati flashback, and cheering when I saw the look of utter disgust on Namor's face when the Hulk's exile is proposed.(The New Avengers: Illuminati #1). It is not only the fact that, there are billions of anomalies that would disrupt unmanned space travel of this magnitude. But, when the Hulk says, "they tried to kill me", it ultimately refreshed my distain for the underhanded betrayal the Illuminati took part in. Professor X was, indeed, not at the meeting but they state his justification for exile was that after reading Bruce's mind that if he(Bruce) could kill The Hulk, and he has tried, he would...

Actually, their justification for exile was the whole "innocent people are dying in the Hulk's wake". So it does read more like, which does get back to my comment on pondering exactly how Pak is going to make various characters look, compared to how other writers have, the Hulk cries something out, and it's good enough to retroactively ignore anything else that shows otherwise, to state how objectively right he is. Even the guy that argues the Hulk is basically blameless acknowledged the statement is indicative of mental instability.

* I just agree this would have changed the situation from a betrayal to a series of mistakes and miscalculation that only Banner can blame himself for. It just seems a little too convenient that the one force, if any, that could truly muck up the Pro-Reg. plans is the very same force they decide to send off the planet because they "care" about him

So, your arguement is that similarly to a post a few back, regardless of how they were written to show what their actual concerns were, those were not in fact their actual concerns? It was a private meeting with no one else but each other. There's very little reason not to mention what's actually bugging them. Considering Tony was actually upfront with them about the registration thing at that, giving them a chance to agree or in Black Bolt's case, make a fist, and Namor's toss out insults.

XPac

03-08-2007, 11:55 PM

And if they'd decided "let's kill her" instead of peeking in to have a look at her before deciding to kill her or not? The big rant about WWH is the secrecy, and illegality. They don't exactly have a legal right to kill Wanda Maximoff, and they did things like basically try to keep the meeting secret from, say, her actual family. You talk about people learning and changing and how this act will have massive ramifications. I point out they've been doing this kind of thing for over a year now, and no one's exactly learned or grown or changed in the direct superhero community that's particularly of note, except for Pietro, who's insane again, and some D list X-men who are now powerless. Wanda's still floating around crazy, and Hawkeye didn't stay dead.

Really? Basically saying "before we decide to kill her, let's pay her a visit" doesn't tell you they'd usurped the right of life and death over her? They didn't call off whether or not to keep discussing what to do about her, they decided to put it off until after a visit. That people beyond Logan and Emma were starting to seem receptive to the arguement to the point where it had to be called off for "let's take a look at her first"? That they didn't include, say, her brother, and that House of M was basically triggered by Pietro only being able to tell that some meeting he was excluded from to talk about killing his sister was going on? I'm noting quite a bit of similarities in terms of underlying principle. I realize you only like to talk about how bad the Illuminati are, and the really bad things that should happen to them, and that even till recently you've been generally questioning of the whole "Hulk killing people" thing, but come on. Having a meeting to discuss something like that, that's pretty bad. It's not much different from the Illuminati having a meeting to discuss shooting the Hulk into space. Hell, at least the Illuminati didn't table "how about we just try to murder him instead" as legitimate subject matter.

Regardless though of your efforts to defend it, it stands as an example, that there are members of the superhero community not the Illuminati who entirely believe in this kind of thing, to the point of stuff like secret family excluding meetings to talk about forcibly euthanizing someone they find dangerous, and believe in acting on it. Something like what happened with the Hulk thusly? Doesn't seem like it's going to be such a driving, long term psychological wedge like the issue of registration was, even if you'd like it to be.

Ok, then let me put it like this: Among the points this story now includes is that Reed in fact can't learn from mistakes like that, and does not do so. Why should he learn something from this if he doesn't really end up losing anything particularly, which, considering he's not slated to lose anything particularly..

The people at Marvel are specifically saying this crossover is meant to lack the kind of long term emotional traumatizing and fracturing effects that Civil War had. Quesada is the one calling it a "sorbet" to specifically cleanse out readers of all that kind of thing. Other editors are noting that it won't be as important, that it will not undo what have been larger changes to the Marvel Universe. It is crossing into far fewer titles. Wanting seriously bad things to happen to the Illuminati, and people to hate on them a lot, for a continuing and significant way is nice, and certainly, dislike whatever characters you want, but it doesn't really jive with the perspective Marvel editorial seems to have, which is that this is going to be a bunch of big, splashy fights.

Something for instance like, hoping that it "puts Reed back in the doghouse" with Sue and disrupt their current efforts at reconciliation. Fantastic Four isn't even a tie in issue. Is it really plausible to hope for something like that then, or is it really just wishful thinking from wanting some badness to come Reed's way that actually impacts him?

Obviously you interpreted House of M very differently than I did. I saw 2 people in the entire room entertaining the thought of killing Wanda. And Cap made it clear that it was an Avengers decision and they weren't going to go along with it. The only conclusion made was that they would allow Strange to continue to try and help her. Then they decided to go see her. Nothing I really have a problem with there.

Yes, they did decide to see Wanda, and presumably Magneto since they knew he was there (which is kind of what I was saying they should do with Banner). That doesn't equate to "before we decide to kill her, let's pay her a visit."

Having a meeting to discuss what to do with Wanda isn't bad at all. And if that's all the Illuminati did, it wouldn't be a problem.

As for why someone like Reed might learn something from this even if he has nothing to lose... I would think the answer is obvious. If WWH is the end result, I would think it's something Reed (and Tony and the rest) would want to avoid in the future. Seems like a sensible enough conclusion to me.

As for Reed being in the doghouse... I don't think it's just wishful thinking on my part that Sue and him will have issues over his actions in Illuminati. Maybe I'm wrong. We'll see. Bendis said the cat would be out of the bad in the Iluminati books, and he also said that a lot of people are going to be mad. I'd assume that Sue would be one of them given the shakey state of their relationship... but that's just a guess.