Mark Millar and Civil War

[Frank]

I wonder what his intents were about Civil War and if there was an overall plan of what he wanted to do and if there was something beyond having 50 different super-groups. Did he just threw a few ideas outthere just for the next writers to use after Civil War? Like for instance the Negative Zone becomes a true prison for the super-criminals now. No possible ways to escape. And since most of the villains register and become good guys and the rest will be more watched than ever with 50 super-groups all over the United States AND Punisher killing most of the rest, what will become of the villains? How will writers come up with stories with villains in them after all of this..? You can't do a Shocker story now. You can't have say..Iron Man fighting some dude in New Mexico because they won't need him since there will be a super-group there. Basically it seems to me like the villains will become obsolete if we go with logic here.

P.S. As for the 50 states idea here, did Millar actually created 50 super-groups with 50 different concepts here..? The guy is creative but there's no way it could be done(while writing a comic like CW).

[Alan2099]

The 50 state thing was originally supposed to be a creator owned project that Joe Q heard about and decided to shoe horn into the marvel universe.

[jackolover]

I think the CW was a complicated, thought out plan, by a large group of creators, and not just Mark Millar. You're whole premise that it was all Millar is not even close. Mark wouldn't have had all those ideas, because we've heard so many things were changed. It was like a big story board, where story details were moved around, depending on what made better sense, not what Millar dictated.

[Sijo]

You're right in that we're giving Millar too much blame (or credit) about Civil War. I felt like that too but I've reconsidered. Comics in America are done in assembly-line fashion- someone plots, someone else scripts, then it gets edited, rewritten to fit in the Company Demands, heck even the artist's visual interpretation of events may change things (ex: when Cap threw that SHIELD agent out of the truck, and caused him to fall onto a police car and cause it to crash with others, was that what Millar asked for, or McNiven's interpretation of the scene? Because it was a HUGELY stupid thing for a hero like Cap to do- he could've caused several deaths or cripplings. Not to mention Cap could easily have knocked the guy out with a karate chop or something.) The only way to judge Millar's true approach to the story would be to see his original scripts. And even then, it would not matter, because we don't buy Millar's scripts, we buy the actual, resultant comic. I can say "I hated Civil War" but not "I hate Millar/McNiven/Brevoort/Anyone else at Marvel because of it." It did, however, lower my expectations from the company right now. But things change sooner or later.

[Hoss]

I really, really like Mark Millar when he is working with a relatively clean slate. His Ultimate universe and Authority stuff were fantastic.

But I think he tends to bang his head against the way character's personalities have been developed when he deals with characters with deep continuity. At heart, Millar's writing is very cynical and he injects that component into everything he does. Civil War seems to me to be an attempt to inject the entire Marvel Universe with Millar's cynicism about politics and human nature.

I know this is worth nothing but I think that if Marvel had wanted to inject a particular POV into the Marvel universe it should have been Brubaker's authenticity and respect for character convention (he made AIM and Bucky James Bond cool). When you examine what Bru did with Cap and Bucky and now Daredevil and compare it to Millar's clumsy take on Reed, Cap, Iron Man etc you see who is truly suited to deal with character's with lots of continuity.

[superfriend]

I think the whole Tony=right side is just classic Quesada misdirection. Read the comics, it's rife with villain Tony. Frontline #11 was like a director's alternate ending IMO.

I bet there's a story somewhere...a Cap saves the day exit strategy for this whole post-Crisis...ahem, post-Civil War Marvel we have now. It might take 20 years, but with these events they almost always begin unraveling themselves instantly.

More intrusion into the lives of people for the sake of security and people will get fed up with Iron Man and his SHRA. The tide will turn, and the dark times will be over.

White hot nerd rage will motivate even complainers to continually follow the Marvel Universe to see if Tony Stark and others get what's coming to them. To see the ruin that will befall this entire endeavor. Civil War is just the beginning. Eventually, public opinion will change as Tony is exposed or somesuch and Cap will be in ascension again. Not to mention all of the spin-off ideas. Marvel is in the lab right now concocting any number of ideas to rouse the revenue generating capabilities of their base.

Just my opinion.

[Alan2099]

I really really HOPE that Millar and Quesada are just lying when they say that Tony's side was completley right and came off looking much better, but given Millars cynical style, I really doubt it.

[MongoSlade]

I really really HOPE that Millar and Quesada are just lying when they say that Tony's side was completley right and came off looking much better, but given Millars cynical style, I really doubt it.
They're not lying.

[DoctorDoom]

I really really HOPE that Millar and Quesada are just lying when they say that Tony's side was completley right and came off looking much better, but given Millars cynical style, I really doubt it.
I , too, doubt it.

[bulbasteve]

And they didn't lie before when they said no major deaths and no conspiracy, so no reason to think they would now.

[superfriend]

Eventually public opinion will turn on this. Cause if we've learned fists can't change laws then we've learned something. The people will be exposed to the truth...that the Pro-side has engaged in egregious abuses and excesses.

Sadly, Tony will be villified as the scapegoat for the whole measure (stupid humans forget so soon) and they'll be ready to string him up and lynch him but somebody will still be in his corner...somebody won't give up on Tony Stark...Steve Rogers.

Cap will unearth that it was Hill and others in SHIELD and the MU government had been abusing the powers vested in them without Tony's knowledge. There will be clemency for Tony and all will be set right.

The lesson learned might be that superheroing requires oversight. A SHRA 2 might be drawn up that is a bit more reasonable and less draconian. This will maintain the necessity for the Intiative and any ideas (or moneymakers as they call them in the Marvel offices) existence but with a more positive and renewed vigor.

Naturally the villains will fallout and will not deem signing up with SHRA 2 a benefit and will go back to being what they always have been--in it for themselves--which makes them effectively the villains. Maybe throw in a couple heroes who decide to stick to their proverbial guns (or in the Punisher's case, literal ones).

Here we still get to have Quesada's desire for kewl punch-em-ups between heroes where a registrant and non-registrant take the field. Capcom Vs. battles aplenty still. The edgier Marvel universe is retained. But Cap and Iron Man are trying to change this with their newfound loyalty to one another.

Alot of the forward momentum on Wakanda and Atlantis vs. America might play out but it can remain. Not like Cap and Iron Man starting up the band again can halt these things.

Basically the damage will be done and despite the superheroes calling a truce and the humans appetite for stupidity is sated, there will still be problems.

But, there's resolution and long-standing status quo changes that can give them that pre- and post-Crisis feelings with the Marvel Universe. The darkest before the dawn is in fact what this next period will be and with the dark times over for the most part, triumph and joy will accompany a resolution to this story years in the making.

Most of the tacked on stuff can stay so long as it's profitable and that will be determined by the market: Mar-Vell, Omega Flight, etc.

[superfriend]

And they didn't lie before when they said no major deaths and no conspiracy, so no reason to think they would now.

47 people died and 6 superpowered people. Major like in major character not body count right? :p

[bulbasteve]

47 people died and 6 superpowered people. Major like in major character not body count right? :p

Yeah...since that is you know...what they said :p

Eventually public opinion will turn on this. Cause if we've learned fists can't change laws then we've learned something. The people will be exposed to the truth...that the Pro-side has engaged in egregious abuses and excesses.

Sadly, Tony will be villified as the scapegoat for the whole measure (stupid humans forget so soon) and they'll be ready to string him up and lynch him but somebody will still be in his corner...somebody won't give up on Tony Stark...Steve Rogers.

Well fthe public has already be exposed to one of the worst "abuses", the negative zone prison and love it. I don't think just because people take abusive measures in war hardly means that people will suddenly hate them (Lincoln and FDR anyone?). So I really don't think Tony will really be villified at any point, maybe some backlash in his own series at some of his reforms blowing up in his face...but hardly any big deal.

The lesson learned might be that superheroing requires oversight. A SHRA 2 might be drawn up that is a bit more reasonable and less draconian. This will maintain the necessity for the Intiative and any ideas (or moneymakers as they call them in the Marvel offices) existence but with a more positive and renewed vigor.

The fact is the SHRA ISN'T draconian. There isn't a need to reform it. The only thing that will ever be changed is the fact that enforcement againt a lot of non-registered heroes will be lessoned as long as they aren't kids and don't get anyone killed.

Alot of the forward momentum on Wakanda and Atlantis vs. America might play out but it can remain. Not like Cap and Iron Man starting up the band again can halt these things.

Well Wakanda is on the pro-reg side now, BP was shaking Pyms hand in the man of the year cover. The fact is Reeds statement of "no more clones, no more traps" and "moving beyond law enforcement" IS the reforms that you want, and clearly what even what hardcore anti-reggers like Black Panther wanted.

[superfriend]

Yeah...since that is you know...what they said.

Well, if you were one of the ones that died during that end battle it would be major, no? Wasn't human death what was the impetus for the reader to cast aside the heroes and side with a petulant human population in the first place? We were supposed to empathize with humans due to Stamford and now it's back to who cares about human deaths?

It's a matter of degree. Why do they not consider the death of 47 people major? It exhibits a fair amount of thoughtlessness for a public that gave rise to the event in the first place.

Why do the normals get short shrift, aren't they why Cap is in this predicament? It was their will that is paramount here. Why discount their losses?

:p :cool:

[bulbasteve]

Well, if you were one of the ones that died during that end battle it would be major, no? Wasn't human death what was the impetus for the reader to cast aside the heroes and side with a petulant human population in the first place? We were supposed to empathize with humans due to Stamford and now it's back to who cares about human deaths?

It's a matter of degree. Why do they not consider the death of 47 people major? It exhibits a fair amount of thoughtlessness for a public that gave rise to the event in the first place.

Why do the normals get short shrift, aren't they why Cap is in this predicament? It was their will that is paramount here. Why discount their losses?

:p :cool:

Ahh your joking around is killing me. They said no major character like Cap or Iron Man would die because they would be back in 9 months. Mary-Joe Smith who lives in SoHo and died in the attack isn't going to be back in 9 months (though god...that would be a GREAT She-Hulk story)

[Magneto Rocks]

I wonder what his intents were about Civil War and if there was an overall plan of what he wanted to do and if there was something beyond having 50 different super-groups. Did he just threw a few ideas outthere just for the next writers to use after Civil War? Like for instance the Negative Zone becomes a true prison for the super-criminals now. No possible ways to escape. And since most of the villains register and become good guys and the rest will be more watched than ever with 50 super-groups all over the United States AND Punisher killing most of the rest, what will become of the villains? How will writers come up with stories with villains in them after all of this..? You can't do a Shocker story now. You can't have say..Iron Man fighting some dude in New Mexico because they won't need him since there will be a super-group there. Basically it seems to me like the villains will become obsolete if we go with logic here.

Talk about leaping in logic. "Most of the villains register"? Apparantly Venom and Bullseye were COLOSSAL parts of the super-villain enterprise then! Punisher killing most of the rest? Lot less Marvel villains than I thought then. There are HUNDREDS upon HUNDREDS of villains left.

The biggest things Millar was responsible for, as far as I know, are the Negative Zone Prison, Omega Flight, the Champions and above all the Fifty States Initiative, although I believe he had a hand in the Thunderbolts too.

[bulbasteve]

Well it is hardly like villains are all joining the T-Bolts. Heck we keep hearing about that new super-gang or whatever that is starting now.

All this does is force people to make their stories better. We SHOULDN'T have had so many breakout stories, so let's force it so that it isn't so easy and you gotta make your villains smart enough to avoid capture. And heck you don't even need to just introduce new heroes but villains as well.

And much like the Initiative I'm sure they will revive old villains too, these C-list badies that only appeared once during the 70s must have been doing SOMETHING over the years. You are going to see these guys who were doing supercrime outside of NYC.