So end of the day what WAS Captain America's plan?

[IamtheRock3]

What was his plan to stop the registration when he faught it


through cival war he really didnt show to much a stragedy other then NOT BE ARRESTED

while that all well and good. Cant really continue your hero Job or fight reigstration behind bars

its a short term solution

did he have plan to to stop the registration

[bulbasteve]

I guess wait for the Confession to see.

My guess was at first he was doing it more in a traditional civil disobedience way to just keep doing his job (well actually they went out of their way to do it even better) to show that they didn't need registration (same thing Stark did in ASM really when he was originally against it).

At some point that got perverted into it being a war between him and Stark and both went about doing pretty legally and morally objectionable things (Clones and Thunderbolts for Stark), (Punisher and breaking people out of jail for Cap).

Because if we are going to play Cap as actually SMART and not an idiot like Jenkins would have us believe, he would have WANTED people to stay in jail. That is what peaceful protest is all about. You flaunt the law and take the punishment, not flaunt the law and fight those enforcing it.

[CyberCoyote]

I guess wait for the Confession to see.


Cap's being portrayed as something of a moron in these stories, and after FL and CW7 I'm almost petrified to see what kind of self degrading words get pasted to Steve's word balloons.

In Millar's interview he spoke as if IM came out of CW as a real hero and everyone could easily see that. I don't know if it's misdirection, ignorance, or a big gag on his part. The Confession: Best case scenario is Tony admits what he's been up to and it lets Cap recapture his resolve and fight off the obvious fog he's in. Either that or Stark admits he's been bombarding him with 'dummy rays' for a while. Worst case scenario Cap admits that he was totally wrong and praises Tony for taking the actions he's gone about. That'd kill me.

[bulbasteve]

I don't see anything wrong with how Millar portrayed Cap. He either wakes up the fact that violently fighting a law is downright stupid and that going to jail in the great tradition of those like MLK is the best way to try and fight for real reform. Or like in the original draft that Stark is able to calm his worries about the government abusing supers because Stark himself is in charge and not Hill.

Either he still thinks more needs to be done to fix the act (or totally abolish it if Jenkins or someone is writing him) or he thinks Tony will do a good job. Either way it works fine.

[IamtheRock3]

I guess wait for the Confession to see.

My guess was at first he was doing it more in a traditional civil disobedience way to just keep doing his job (well actually they went out of their way to do it even better) to show that they didn't need registration (same thing Stark did in ASM really when he was originally against it).

At some point that got perverted into it being a war between him and Stark and both went about doing pretty legally and morally objectionable things (Clones and Thunderbolts for Stark), (Punisher and breaking people out of jail for Cap).

Because if we are going to play Cap as actually SMART and not an idiot like Jenkins would have us believe, he would have WANTED people to stay in jail. That is what peaceful protest is all about. You flaunt the law and take the punishment, not flaunt the law and fight those enforcing it.

in fairness he faught against Arrest in Regular Cival War

Politcaly speaking yea it would be smart to let them arrest them. I am pretty sure the public would not be cool with HALF there heroes in Jail. Then again marvel public been a bit wierd, sure that plan aint a gurantee

[Orin GA]

http://home.comcast.net/~oringa/capsplan.JPG

[bulbasteve]

in fairness he faught against Arrest in Regular Cival War

Politcaly speaking yea it would be smart to let them arrest them. I am pretty sure the public would not be cool with HALF there heroes in Jail. Then again marvel public been a bit wierd, sure that plan aint a gurantee

Well sure, like breaking people out it was a dumb move, same with Punisher. Same with Clones and Thunderbolts on the other side. Cap DID start off just fighting villians, and Stark was hardly sending out clones to start with either.

But that is all after a general fog of war has set in. And if anything Cap is the first one to wake up to the fact that they ARE in that fog of war, before Tony and Reed realize Clones are really a bad idea.

[CyberCoyote]

I don't see anything wrong with how Millar portrayed Cap. He either wakes up the fact that violently fighting a law is downright stupid and that going to jail in the great tradition of those like MLK is the best way to try and fight for real reform. Or like in the original draft that Stark is able to calm his worries about the government abusing supers because Stark himself is in charge and not Hill.

Given I read all of two issues and the rest read reviews, but what bothered me was how low brow Cap came off. He was using Ultimate Cap dialogue, and as the original poster indicated, what was the plan? I know Cap HAD to resist to push the story out 7 issues, but I always thought of him as more of a strategist, a guy that would have easily forseen the what was going to happen as it escalated, perhaps going completely underground or making a very public surrender earlier on (with plenty of news crews available for a big, patriotic, inspirational Cap speech rather than sobbing)

Either he still thinks more needs to be done to fix the act (or totally abolish it if Jenkins or someone is writing him) or he thinks Tony will do a good job. Either way it works fine.

Even if he supported the act in some way, how would he react if he learned of the things Tony did to get where he is? The Atlantean murders, setting up Spidey with Dynamo, etc? Could he see past those treacherous actions at that point?

[bulbasteve]

Given I read all of two issues and the rest read reviews, but what bothered me was how low brow Cap came off. He was using Ultimate Cap dialogue, and as the original poster indicated, what was the plan? I know Cap HAD to resist to push the story out 7 issues, but I always thought of him of more of a strategist, a guy that would have easily forseen the what was going to happen as it escalated, perhaps going completely underground or making a very public surrender earlier on (with plenty of news crews available for a big, patriotic, inspirational Cap speech rather than sobbing)

I don't see that as a huge deal. Vision snuck up on Stark, Cap didn't have 20/20 batman like foresight. It's really not a huge deal, I mean heck the braintrust did make clones and all...ANYONE can fall under the fog of war, even if it means just acting like a thug. I think it was clear by CW2 his original plan was just to go about buisness as (more) than usual. Hill commented on how villains were being tied to lamp posts left and right.

Even if he supported the act in some way, how would he react if he learned of the things Tony did to get where he is? The Atlantean murders, setting up Spidey with Dynamo, etc? Could he see past those treacherous actions at that point?

I think everyone will pretend Frontline never happened (or just do true comic book level rationalization that Tony never really did admit to anything), so don't worry about that. And Dynamo was exactly what Cap was doing, just trying to prove that the country was safe without registration (granted Cap didn't pay the Vulture...but who knows maybe he did ;p)

At the end I think the more pressing question is why Cap didn't accept amnesty. Is it because he is still against registration in it's current form/altogether or is it just a penance (oh god no!) for his actions during the war.

[jackolover]

I don't see anything wrong with how Millar portrayed Cap. He either wakes up the fact that violently fighting a law is downright stupid and that going to jail in the great tradition of those like MLK is the best way to try and fight for real reform. Or like in the original draft that Stark is able to calm his worries about the government abusing supers because Stark himself is in charge and not Hill.

I don't think Cap did anything neccessarily wrong. Having said that, the CW #7 attack on 42 didn't go according to plan, and his fallback plan was done in a panic, landing the fight in NY streets, with consequent casualties and damage, and subsequent capitulation.

However, I feel Caps plan was sound, military, practice.

Remove the threat of the 42
Resist all attempts of forced Registration
Maintain the status Quo in the face of overwhelming opposition
Eventually, make the SHRA redundant.

[XPac]

I don't think Cap did anything neccessarily wrong. Having said that, the CW #7 attack on 42 didn't go according to plan, and his fallback plan was done in a panic, landing the fight in NY streets, with consequent casualties and damage, and subsequent capitulation.

However, I feel Caps plan was sound, military, practice.

Remove the threat of the 42
Resist all attempts of forced Registration
Maintain the status Quo in the face of overwhelming opposition
Eventually, make the SHRA redundant.

Well, the thing was that the whole bit about them falling into NY was actually BP and Daggers plan. Cap seemingly didn't have a whole lot to do with that.

Though in all fairness, he's in change so at the end of the day the buck does stop with him.

[bulbasteve]

I don't think Cap did anything neccessarily wrong. Having said that, the CW #7 attack on 42 didn't go according to plan, and his fallback plan was done in a panic, landing the fight in NY streets, with consequent casualties and damage, and subsequent capitulation.

However, I feel Caps plan was sound, military, practice.

Remove the threat of the 42
Resist all attempts of forced Registration
Maintain the status Quo in the face of overwhelming opposition
Eventually, make the SHRA redundant.

Dude you can't recruit The Punisher and have two baddies dead on your hands and say you didn't do anything wrong.

That is a BAD plan, that plan just does not work. 42 is a prison, not a threat. Registration is forced by it's very nature, there is no such thing as voluntary registration in the law.

He should have just stuck with what REAL civil disobedience was. Doing what is against the law and being put in jail for it. That is what MLK did...what Cap was doing was Black Panthers tactics (woah... more irony!). Guess who was the one that actually got change done?

Sound military planning is simply not sound political planning. No amount of fighting would ever change the law nor make it so they wouldn't enforce the law. Cap just forgot that at around CW2 when he "freed" the Young Avengers. And that is how Millar is fair, both made serious, fundamental mistakes. To paint Cap as having done nothing wrong would be like a pro-reg guys saying that Tony was a perfect saint through the whole thing.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Cap's Master Plan

Step 1: Beat up that jerk Tony.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Victory!!!

How can it get more clear than that?

[XPac]

Cap's Master Plan

Step 1: Beat up that jerk Tony.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Victory!!!

How can it get more clear than that?

At that point, Cap was only concerned with freeing prisoners that he felt were unjustly being detained. He seemingly wasn't trying to actually beat the registration.

That obvioudly doesn't make him look that good as a political freedom fighter. But in a sense it also makes Cap's motives look purer. All he was trying to do was free his people. That's it. No grand mastermind scheme against his own government like Tony had.

[jackolover]

Dude you can't recruit The Punisher and have two baddies dead on your hands and say you didn't do anything wrong.

That is a BAD plan, that plan just does not work. 42 is a prison, not a threat. Registration is forced by it's very nature, there is no such thing as voluntary registration in the law.

Using whatever resources can come to hand, (Punisher; rescueing captured heros) to expedite the plan, is not a bad plan, in the face of the dirty tricks used by Tony in CW #3-4. Cap said he had to fight dirty.

He should have just stuck with what REAL civil disobedience was. Doing what is against the law and being put in jail for it. That is what MLK did...what Cap was doing was Black Panthers tactics (woah... more irony!). Guess who was the one that actually got change done?

Cap was never going to roll over, in the face of being forced into service to the government, which he loathed. Forget it.

Sound military planning is simply not sound political planning. No amount of fighting would ever change the law nor make it so they wouldn't enforce the law. Cap just forgot that at around CW2 when he "freed" the Young Avengers. And that is how Millar is fair, both made serious, fundamental mistakes. To paint Cap as having done nothing wrong would be like a pro-reg guys saying that Tony was a perfect saint through the whole thing.

Well, everyone to their opinion. To my mind, he had to fight fire with fire, as long as nobody got hurt. After the casualties of CW #7, that plan became unworkable, and he had to reduce the casualty factor, by taking the Resistance out of the fight.

It was a sound MILITARY tactic. I'm not talking about a political tactic. Cap was a military person. He used military methods. If you want a political tactic, go see She-Hulk. That's her job.

[Orin GA]

I thought step 3 was profit

[jackolover]

That obvioudly doesn't make him look that good as a political freedom fighter. But in a sense it also makes Cap's motives look purer. All he was trying to do was free his people. That's it. No grand mastermind scheme against his own government like Tony had.

I'm sure that when Cap jumped ship and landed on the plane in CW #1, it wasn't to just to free people. He tried to recruit Hank Pym to his side, so that he could prepare a plan of action, but was turned into Shield, instead.

After Cap did assemble his troops, that's when his plan was formulated, and his fight to the death with Tony Stark in CW # 3-4, was evidence of that. Cap was not going to go quietly into the night. There was going to be more than just resistance, because he wanted to break the system that was going to push Cap into service.

[XPac]

I'm sure that when Cap jumped ship and landed on the plane in CW #1, it wasn't to just to free people. He tried to recruit Hank Pym to his side, so that he could prepare a plan of action, but was turned into Shield, instead.

After Cap did assemble his troops, that's when his plan was formulated, and his fight to the death with Tony Stark in CW # 3-4, was evidence of that. Cap was not going to go quietly into the night. There was going to be more than just resistance, because he wanted to break the system that was going to push Cap into service.

Cap jumping ship and landing on the plane wasn't about freeing his people... that was about making sure HE was free.

He had a plan to fight Tony's army (and he won in that regard), he just didn't have a plan to fight the registration. Or at least he never got to it if he had one.

[lightning]

I don't really think he had one, which was one of the things I didn't like about Civil War. Or if he did have one, damned if I know what it was. At first (prior to Goliath taking one for the team), it seemed like he was just going to not register, help those who don't want to register evade SHIELD, and continue to be all heroic, albeit as an unsanctioned vigilante - isn't that the genesis of the "Secret Avengers" name? Then it seems like the whole thing is about busting guys out of the Negative Zone prison, and opposing the SHRA itself is a secondary issue. Because assuming he does manage to bust everyone out of jail and take down Tony, then what? I don't think anyone really knows, and Civil War suffers a bit as a result.

[XPac]

I don't really think he had one, which was one of the things I didn't like about Civil War. Or if he did have one, damned if I know what it was. At first (prior to Goliath taking one for the team), it seemed like he was just going to not register, help those who don't want to register evade SHIELD, and continue to be all heroic, albeit as an unsanctioned vigilante - isn't that the genesis of the "Secret Avengers" name? Then it seems like the whole thing is about busting guys out of the Negative Zone prison, and opposing the SHRA itself is a secondary issue. Because assuming he does manage to bust everyone out of jail and take down Tony, then what? I don't think anyone really knows, and Civil War suffers a bit as a result.

It was definately a weakness on Millars part. He did a pretty good job conveying the action, but never bothered putting that action in any really developed context. We never got a good sense of the characters motivations or long term plans.

It was excusable for most of Civil War because I honestly thought he was saving their master plans for later on in the story. But it just never really came.

[bulbasteve]

I don't really think he had one, which was one of the things I didn't like about Civil War. Or if he did have one, damned if I know what it was. At first (prior to Goliath taking one for the team), it seemed like he was just going to not register, help those who don't want to register evade SHIELD, and continue to be all heroic, albeit as an unsanctioned vigilante - isn't that the genesis of the "Secret Avengers" name? Then it seems like the whole thing is about busting guys out of the Negative Zone prison, and opposing the SHRA itself is a secondary issue. Because assuming he does manage to bust everyone out of jail and take down Tony, then what? I don't think anyone really knows, and Civil War suffers a bit as a result.

That is the whole point of the statement "we won everything but the argument". The point was he forgot all about his mission and just went to war with Stark with trying to bust people out of prisons. That no more makes CW suffer than Stark using clones does, they were both almost criminally stupid things done in a time of war.