Civil War: Front Line #11 Review

[The Anti-Existence]

Well, to sum it up:

1. Sentry comes out publically for the Pro-Reg side...for some reason, it surprises everyone.

2. Sally and Ben visit Captain America in prison. Sally rips into him, saying he fights for an “ideal” and not actually America. Basically, -his- America doesn’t exist anymore.

3. They then visit Tony Stark. The traitor was Tony all along. He made Osbourne attack the Atlanteons in a gamble to use the prospect of a war with Atlantis to increase funds for his plan and to persuade unregistered heroes to register to potentially fight a common foe in the Atlanteans.

4. Tony tells them to get the hell out then kinda freaks out...he drops to his knees and cries. I have no idea why.

If I missed something (which I probably did because I can’t see very well and text Is a lot better than just pictures for me to understand what’s going on) then please tell me. For instance, what did he punch at the end? And why was he so upset?

[XPac]

Well, I suppose this does create more a balance between the CW7.

At the start of the war, Millar and marvel said no one was right and no one was wrong. CW7 sort of gave the impression that Cap was wrong all along but I think Frontline helps remind us that Tony was pretty dam wrong too.

[Magneto Rocks]

<Smashes head against wall repeatedly>

<Never stops>

It's official, he name drops Sentry in every single issue of Frontline.

And yes, Jenkins really has made Frontline the most radically declining book I've ever read. 1 was great, but if this is 10... my expectations are not exactly "Low" so much as "catastrophic"

[Den]

2. Sally and Ben visit Captain America in prison. Sally rips into him, saying he fights for an “ideal” and not actually America. Basically, -his- America doesn’t exist anymore.


And this is news? For decades, at least since the 1970s, Captain America has dedicated himself for standing for what is good in America, and what it SHOULD be, not what it is. He's been loyal to the American Dream (Which, contrary to the hilarious Eddie Izzard is NOT sticking money in your ears and going :p to everyone) as opposed to obedient to the American Government. Cap symbolizes (or tries to) what is BEST in the American people, as opposed to what's best, worst, and our love of fast food. Even when forced to give up his costume, he held on to those ideals, and by so doing he has become the icon of our highest aspirations.
He spouts things like "I am loyal to nothing, except the dream" so this is not exactly a secret, even in the MU.

Gah. You'd think investigative reporters, especially Urich, would KNOW this stuff.

[XPac]

And this is news? For decades, at least since the 1970s, Captain America has dedicated himself for standing for what is good in America, and what it SHOULD be, not what it is. He's been loyal to the American Dream (Which, contrary to the hilarious Eddie Izzard is NOT sticking money in your ears and going :p to everyone) as opposed to obedient to the American Government. Cap symbolizes (or tries to) what is BEST in the American people, as opposed to what's best, worst, and our love of fast food. Even when forced to give up his costume, he held on to those ideals, and by so doing he has become the icon of our highest aspirations.
He spouts things like "I am loyal to nothing, except the dream" so this is not exactly a secret, even in the MU.

Gah. You'd think investigative reporters, especially Urich, would KNOW this stuff.

Sally (who already proved herself to be a frightenly incompetent reporter) pretty much made her opinion of Cap clear the last time they talked. So this is just more of the same from her.

I'm curious to see if Ben and Sally end up reporting this story or not.

[The Lucky One]

What bothered me is that at every single turn, the issue goes out of its way to outline just how exactly much of a bastard Tony is, to illustrate how he's betrayed every single ideal he's ever stood for and become a true monster... and then Sally applauds him for it. Not figuratively, literally- she actually applauds. Now, I just skimmed that section in the car and it's possible she was being completely, 100% ironic; but if she wasn't, it's the most baffling thing I've read all year. We're either meant to think that Sally is stupid or that she's absolutely without any ethics or morality whatsoever, and that "the ends justify the means" is truly a valid argument. I can't imagine that's what the writer intended, but man, that's how it reads.

I don't think I've ever done such a complete 180 about a character in a limited series as Sally; issue 1 made me love her as a sassy, clever journalist, this issue put the final nail in her coffin as someone catastrophically missing the big picture. Still not as bad as the Speedball thing in issue 10, but anyone hoping for clarification of CW #7 beyond "No, Iron Man's side really was right all along, honest" might want to look elsewhere.

-D

[Orin GA]

Okay.....so why exactly did Ben have to leave his job after this...wtf?

[Orin GA]

Now that i think of it. Namor would be pretty pissed (more so than usuall) if he ever found out that tony did this. Maybe it is better to just keep it under wraps.

But how does that exactly make tony a traitor?

[CMBMOOL]

Now that i think of it. Namor would be pretty pissed (more so than usuall) if he ever found out that tony did this. Maybe it is better to just keep it under wraps.


Nah, why does some nagging feeling tells me that within the mist of World War Hulk: Frontline, is that Ben and Sally's little story comes to light along with the truth of why the Hulk is at war with earth.

Then the public and superhero's trust in Tony will either be shattered and/or questioned. :D

[XPac]

Now that i think of it. Namor would be pretty pissed (more so than usuall) if he ever found out that tony did this. Maybe it is better to just keep it under wraps.

But how does that exactly make tony a traitor?

Namor certainly. But to a degree I guess he tries to return the favor in CW7 regardless of whether he knows about it or not.

But what about his buddy Simon? Wonderman was by Tony's side supporting the registration since day one, and he ends up getting hospitalized for his troubles after being blackmailed into helping in the first place.

That's just one more guy added to the growing list of guys I wish would take a swing at Tony. He's suck a freaking bastards (not EVIL... let me stress that, but he's a bastard).

[The Anti-Existence]

And this is news? For decades, at least since the 1970s, Captain America has dedicated himself for standing for what is good in America, and what it SHOULD be, not what it is. He's been loyal to the American Dream (Which, contrary to the hilarious Eddie Izzard is NOT sticking money in your ears and going to everyone) as opposed to obedient to the American Government. Cap symbolizes (or tries to) what is BEST in the American people, as opposed to what's best, worst, and our love of fast food. Even when forced to give up his costume, he held on to those ideals, and by so doing he has become the icon of our highest aspirations.
He spouts things like "I am loyal to nothing, except the dream" so this is not exactly a secret, even in the MU.

Gah. You'd think investigative reporters, especially Urich, would KNOW this stuff.

Pretty much my thought. But don't blame Ben. It was all Sally. Ben, in fact says: "I thought we were supposed to be interviewing Captain America. Not yelling at him."

Much of what Sally says to Cap sounds like the Pro-Reg fans' criticisms.
"Sir, the people are going to ask, "why not sooner?" If you recognize this now, why couldn't you just have recognize it earlier and saved us millions in property damage?"

I want to point out though, that Cap doesn't think what he did was wrong. What he says is:
"I now realize while my intentions were correct and honorable, I could as easily have come to the table as Tony Stark or Reed Richards."

As i said already, Cap didn't think Tony was right and he didn't give up his ideals. He simply decided the method with which he was going about defending those ideals was wrong.

[Den]

Pretty much my thought. But don't blame Ben. It was all Sally. Ben, in fact says: "I thought we were supposed to be interviewing Captain America. Not yelling at him."
Apologies to Ben then, and I'm glad to hear it. I've actually enjoyed some of Urich's portrayls in the past years.


Much of what Sally says to Cap sounds like the Pro-Reg fans' criticisms.
"Sir, the people are going to ask, "why not sooner?" If you recognize this now, why couldn't you just have recognize it earlier and saved us millions in property damage?"


Sadly, Cap can't answer "Cuz Millar made me." ;)

[The Anti-Existence]

Well, I pray (but I know it won't happen) that in the next Captain America issue, we learn his surrender was a red herring and he's planning a way to subvert Tony's machinations and continuing to fight for his ideals.

[XPac]

Ya know what I kind of find ironic about this? The fact that at one point some pro-reggers were callling Cap a terrorist.

I think Tony ended up being the terrorist. He masterminded a bombing on american soil to instill fear in the masses for further his political agenda. That's the EXACT definition of a terrorist.

The freaking director of SHIELD is a terrorist... so I guess they really did pick the right person for the job (and I'm only half joking when I say that).

[XPac]

Well, I pray (but I know it won't happen) that in the next Captain America issue, we learn his surrender was a red herring and he's planning a way to subvert Tony's machinations and continuing to fight for his ideals.

In Thunderbolts Zemo said Cap would allow himself to be captured. And was given a key to escape. From the way Zemo described how it would go down, he sounded like it was an intentional ploy. Though from what we're seeing here and in CW it doesn't look like it.

It's all up to Brubaker I guess. Though I have no doubts at all that Brubaker will do Cap justice. He may be the BEST Cap writer EVER.

[CMBMOOL]

Ya know what I kind of find ironic about this? The fact that at one point some pro-reggers were callling Cap a terrorist.

I think Tony ended up being the terrorist. He masterminded a bombing on american soil to instill fear in the masses for further his political agenda. That's the EXACT definition of a terrorist.

The freaking director of SHIELD is a terrorist... so I guess they really did pick the right person for the job (and I'm only half joking when I say that).



Don't forget Tony Exiled the Hulk and he will return for his revenge within World War Hulk. :D

[Jmacq1]

W...T...F?!?

So basically, Marvel continues their track record with this crossover and has the major tie-in series COMPLETELY CONTRADICT the main series?

Nothing about the War Profiteering, either? What the hell is going on here?

Seriously, this whole thing sounds completely asenine. I may be Anti-Reg to the bone, but after the end of CW #7 I was at least willing to give the Pro-Reg MU a long-term shot to prove me wrong (as opposed to ham-fisted Mark Millar trying to -tell- me I'm wrong).

Then they pull this crap? TONY ARRANGED TO HAVE AN ATLANTEAN KILLED. To have MULTIPLE Atlanteans killed, and to START A WAR WITH A FOREIGN POWER. HOW DOES THIS NOT MAKE TONY A VILLAIN?!?!

Honestly, they need to come right out and say that "Frontline" took place in an alternate reality or something, otherwise they've destroyed the entire "final message" of Civil War, and pretty much completely ruined Tony Stark as a viable heroic character. At least his hands weren't -directly- bloodied before. Now there's no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

And why the heck is this story "unpublishable?" (Or did they even bother to explain that?) Isn't this PRECISELY THE KIND OF THING REPORTERS ARE SUPPOSED TO REPORT?!?

Ben and Sally need to find new careers after this mini-series, because quite frankly if they don't publish this story they've ruined whatever credibility or integrity they had as so-called "journalists." You don't report just the pleasant truths. You report the unpleasant ones, too.

But I guess Ben and Sally are perfectly OK with a self-admitted warmonger running the most powerful paramilitary espionage organization in the world -and- being in charge of an army of superheroes.

This whole thing ticks me off almost beyond reason. Jenkins should be banned from writing anything at Marvel for the rest of history.

[Magneto Rocks]

Ya know what I kind of find ironic about this? The fact that at one point some pro-reggers were callling Cap a terrorist.

I think Tony ended up being the terrorist. He masterminded a bombing on american soil to instill fear in the masses for further his political agenda. That's the EXACT definition of a terrorist.

The freaking director of SHIELD is a terrorist... so I guess they really did pick the right person for the job (and I'm only half joking when I say that).

Cap was a terrorist. That's not in question here. As to Iron Man, we'll see. I'll wait until I read the isuse. But if this is what it sounds like, then it may be the worst instance of mischaracterization in civil war by a LONG stretch. Hell, even I may find that hard to defend. Still nowhere near as morally unsound as the anti-reg cause but an idiotic piece of writing all round.

[lightning]

Broadly speaking, I think Tony being the traitor and intentionally trying to provoke a war with Atlantis to drum up support for his cause is Marvel's way of trying to bring "balance" to Civil War.

Conceptually, the SHRA makes sense. The implementation seems a little inconsistent, mostly because we never found out directly what it said. That being said, Tony & Co. did things that by and large, were questionable at best, and reprehensible at worst (Clor? Indefinite detention in the Negative Zone? The Thunderbolts? Arranging a hit on the Atlantean ambassador to build political capital?). On the flip side, Captain America & Co. were generally portrayed as "good guys", but incredibly ineffective ones. They don't do anything really to actively oppose the law apart from fight Tony's guys every now and then.

So on one hand you have Iron Man, who's been a total ass, but is advocating something that is conceptually sound and on the other, you have Captain America, who's been realtively good (compared to Tony at least initially) in action, but he does jack all to actively oppose the SHRA. Really, who are you supposed to cheer for in a case like that? Much like Civil War itself, a good idea on paper, but the execution left something to be desired.

[MakeshiftHero]

Picked up the issue, it bored me so I just decided to speed read it and it made me wish I didnt pick up another issue after I droped the title after number 2.

I'd like my money back.:(

And STILL: all we keep getting are hints of who could be the "fallen son" from the final battle in CW, but now we know there are six supers who died and not just one. So I wonder if they'll ever touch up on that.

[Jmacq1]

Cap was a terrorist. That's not in question here. As to Iron Man, we'll see. I'll wait until I read the isuse. But if this is what it sounds like, then it may be the worst instance of mischaracterization in civil war by a LONG stretch. Hell, even I may find that hard to defend. Still nowhere near as morally unsound as the anti-reg cause but an idiotic piece of writing all round.


Not as morally unsound? It's just as morally unsound if not more so. And I don't say this to gloat because I'm really ticked off about this "revelation" myself. But seriously look at this for a moment:

He unleashed a murderer to incite a war, and condoned the murder of foreign nationals for the express purpose of inciting said war.

He trumpets the responsibility and accountability of superheroes, but then takes it upon himself to try to start a war -without- the express wishes of the US government he claims he's being accountable to. Furthermore, a war with a foreign power will UNDOUBTEDLY result in death and destruction on both sides. All the superheroes in the world aren't going to be able to prevent all of it.

So he's not only a warmonger, and a murderer (hiring/pulling the strings of the hitman makes one just as culpable as pulling the trigger oneself), but also a hypocrite of the highest order.

And as much as I support the Anti-Reg stance, this kind of vilification for Tony Stark is not something I wanted, nor will stand for.

EDIT: And let's not forget the brilliance of the two twits telling Captain America that apparently "ideals" are obsolete and "public opinion" is everything. I guess Captain America can only be relevant if he's totally up on current events, generally ignorant, oblivious, and definitely ungrateful idiot (oh, and votes for the next "American Idol" too! That's important!). What part of standing up for "ideals" vs. standing up for "whatever the public wants" do these two morons not understand?

Since that seems to be what the "general public" in the Marvel Universe is thanks to their portrayal in Civil War.

So Jenkins didn't just screw over Tony, he got to get some barbs in on Cap too. Probably all part of his secret plan to have Sentry become Marvel's golden paragon of heroism, since he feels the need to name-drop the character at every possible opportunity.

[CyberCoyote]

Cap was a terrorist. That's not in question here. As to Iron Man, we'll see. I'll wait until I read the isuse. But if this is what it sounds like, then it may be the worst instance of mischaracterization in civil war by a LONG stretch. Hell, even I may find that hard to defend. Still nowhere near as morally unsound as the anti-reg cause but an idiotic piece of writing all round.

For the love of all that's Holy, Marvel. If you can get MagnetoRocks into a corner where HE can't defend the pro-reg side then you've done the impossible!!! Staunchest pro-reg supporter on Earth that is allowed to interact with the public and you've cast a doubt on him, that's the biggest shocker in CW for me.

So for those of us who'll NEVER buy this; who are the 6 dead supers? How did Wonderman end up in the hospital and will it explain his lack of flight and ionic look(please tell me the man who hits like Thor's Hammer wasn't hospitalized by a pumpkin bomb)? How in the WORLD can Tony not be arrested for acts of terrorism if he's the 'mastermind' behind so much destruction on US soil?

[Vaal]

Wow... I knew Tony was a monster, but not that much of one. But its all okay by Marvel, because he's got a movie coming out. Makes me kind of wonder about the plot of this movie. Is he going to sacrifice his ideals and people's lives in that too?

Kind of amusing little thing: Spidey wore IM's colors for a while in CW, but then changed to a villain's colors (Venom). Its almost as symbolic of how far Tonyss fallen.

[CMBMOOL]

Maybe the reason Sally and Ben didn't publish the story was to let Stark live in his guilt, and possibly they could show the story and the truth of what Stark did in Civil War and to the Hulk during the mist of World War Hulk Frontline. :D

[[WB]BlackWolf]

Civil War Frontline has been an extreme letdown, it started off with great promise and a good story, but it's descended into a steaming pile of crap with issue #11.

The Cap interview was a waste and Tony being the traitor? That alone warrants this book being suitable for being used to start a fire the next time one goes camping.

Jenkins had a great story going and he threw it away, what the hell was he thinking?

[trickster]

Ya know what I kind of find ironic about this? The fact that at one point some pro-reggers were callling Cap a terrorist.


I think Tony ended up being the terrorist. He masterminded a bombing on american soil to instill fear in the masses for further his political agenda. That's the EXACT definition of a terrorist.

The freaking director of SHIELD is a terrorist... so I guess they really did pick the right person for the job (and I'm only half joking when I say that).

Well, this book kinda redeems the way Civil War ended. Speaking of Tony, who's gonna find out? The moment Urich even tries to publish the story he'll be called a lunatic, or worse. An enemy of the ever vigilant American government who valiantly guards the American dream.


Well, I pray (but I know it won't happen) that in the next Captain America issue, we learn his surrender was a red herring and he's planning a way to subvert Tony's machinations and continuing to fight for his ideals.


What's the point? They're his outdated ideals. This is a new America. Who the hell needs rights and critical thinking?
Just look at this guy:
Cap was a terrorist. That's not in question here. [...] Still nowhere near as morally unsound as the anti-reg cause but an idiotic piece of writing all round.
There's millions like him out there. Not even Thor's hammer could knock some sense into their skulls.

Maybe the reason Sally and Ben didn't publish the story was to let Stark live in his guilt, and possibly they could show the story and the truth of what Stark did in Civil War and to the Hulk during the mist of World War Hulk Frontline.
Oh,yeah, that'll show him.

And let's not forget the brilliance of the two twits telling Captain America that apparently "ideals" are obsolete and "public opinion" is everything. I guess Captain America can only be relevant if he's totally up on current events, generally ignorant, oblivious, and definitely ungrateful idiot (oh, and votes for the next "American Idol" too! That's important!). What part of standing up for "ideals" vs. standing up for "whatever the public wants" do these two morons not understand?
Heh, yeah. That opinion which can be so easily manipulated by professionals.

How in the WORLD can Tony not be arrested for acts of terrorism if he's the 'mastermind' behind so much destruction on US soil?
But then again who's gonna prosecute him?

We're either meant to think that Sally is stupid or that she's absolutely without any ethics or morality whatsoever, and that "the ends justify the means" is truly a valid argument. I can't imagine that's what the writer intended, but man, that's how it reads.
And they weren't even noble ends.

[MAK15]

Im looking forward to the Frontline: WWH after this, but I also wanna see a Frontline monthly where we see these two cover stories like the 'Spider-boys' in Spider-man, or the Moleman's attack on Manhattan in mighty avengers, or even have one of the reporters sit down and talk to some of th renegade heroes on their thoughts about the registration or being hunted by the Thunderbolts.

[Machinedude]

Let's not forget that Tony paid the Titanium Man to attack a government building just before Civil War got going in ASM I believe (or has that been retcon'd as well) Now I am pretty certain that the gov. considers that sort of thing a terroist act!

[Morw]

Gave up CW:frontline when they seemed to write thier own CW story to paint the pro side worse then they where. Like making the prison into a old fashin gulag.

[Alpow]

So a registered super human had foreign diplomats attacked and tried to engineer a war, yep I sure am liking this new and more accountable age where super humans can no longer cause mischief.

Hmmm, well at least he gets punished for it by .... being made the most powerful man on the planet, I bet the paper work is a nightmare and he will be taught a real lesson.


I have a feeling I'm not going to like this issue because my first thought is that Ironman has no reason to do something so stupid, on the other hand maybe Jenkins is just responding to the hack job of civil war 7.

[trickster]

Sally: "America is no longer about Mom and Apple Pie it's about high cholesterol and Paris Hilton and scheming your way to the top."
Yeah, even if it means killing a black guy or two in the process. I can see how anyone fighting for improving things a bit must be really evil.
Way to go Sally. You've nailed it perfectly.
"The Country I love treats its celebrities like royalty and its teachers like dirt." Man, talking about kissing the boot that kicks you.

Congratulations Mr. Jenkins.

[jackolover]

lf. But seriously look at this for a moment:

He unleashed a murderer to incite a war, and condoned the murder of foreign nationals for the express purpose of inciting said war.

He trumpets the responsibility and accountability of superheroes, but then takes it upon himself to try to start a war -without- the express wishes of the US government he claims he's being accountable to. Furthermore, a war with a foreign power will UNDOUBTEDLY result in death and destruction on both sides. All the superheroes in the world aren't going to be able to prevent all of it.

I'd just like to point out, Namor is no saint, either. What about Atlantis Attacks? That was far worse than Stark assasinating an Atlantis envoy. Think of all the times Namor went on a rampage in NY.

I don't condone Tony Starks actions, but compared to Namor.....

[XPac]

Cap was a terrorist. That's not in question here. As to Iron Man, we'll see. I'll wait until I read the isuse. But if this is what it sounds like, then it may be the worst instance of mischaracterization in civil war by a LONG stretch. Hell, even I may find that hard to defend. Still nowhere near as morally unsound as the anti-reg cause but an idiotic piece of writing all round.

Cap being a terrorist may not have been a question for you... but I personally missed the part where Cap used the implementation of terror as a means of coercion.

Cap was guilty of criminal actions, but Tony was the one that used a violent act to incite terror as a means of achieving financial and political ends.

But that said... writing wise it actually worked for me. I don't agree with what he did of course, but they way they broke down Starks overall plan right from the start actually impressed me.

Frontline was the epilogue I needed for Civil War.

Millars ending was incomplete... it lacked context. Frontline allowed up to see both Cap and Tonys perspective much better. This issue of Frontline justified Marvels hype of it being essential reading... it really explained both sides (Tonys in particular) better.

[trickster]

"Hey, Cap, you ever hear of a site called MySpace"?

Here's a random sample picked by using "browse":

What's up to all myspace friend's just dropin in to let you know alittle bit about me. Well i am 24 years old and i am a single mother with a beatuiful 3yr old son who is my everything, i work for a law frim, i love to go out to the movies and kick it with my friends. But the one thing that i cant stand is fake ass motha f**kas that say one thing and do another, i also cant stand f**ken hatters so if you gonna hate get the f**k off my page cause i ant got time for all that bullsh*t, i have enough shit to worry about other than penny ass bullsh*t now that i got that off my mind if you want to know more about me just hit me up. JELI
Notice how she can't even spell the f * word right even thought she must be using it a lot. Hey Cap I have news for you. This is "the people" of the Constitution at its best. Give up.

[XPac]

Maybe the reason Sally and Ben didn't publish the story was to let Stark live in his guilt, and possibly they could show the story and the truth of what Stark did in Civil War and to the Hulk during the mist of World War Hulk Frontline. :D

I actually think there's more to it than that.

Firstly as a former journalist I'd like to say they were WRONG in not publishing it.

But that being said... I think they decided not to report it because they genuinely believe a lot of good will come out of what Stark is doing, even though he's using some incredibly immoral tactics to achieve them.

Again, I think that's an incredibyl horrible stance for a journalist to take... but it also conveys the notion that Starks not a complete monster. He's doing some good things, and even the people that know first hand the horrible deeds hes doing recognize that.

[XPac]

BlackWolf;4456529']Civil War Frontline has been an extreme letdown, it started off with great promise and a good story, but it's descended into a steaming pile of crap with issue #11.

The Cap interview was a waste and Tony being the traitor? That alone warrants this book being suitable for being used to start a fire the next time one goes camping.

Jenkins had a great story going and he threw it away, what the hell was he thinking?

I actually saw a lot of value in the Cap interview.

Caps surrender at the end of Civil War was a bit open ended. Which I suppose isn't suprising. In the entire CW book Cap never went into detail as to why he was fighting the war, and not shocking he gave very little in regards to why he's ending it.

Here we got to here it from his own mouth. He admitted he was wrong, he apologized to the country he loves and to his friend Tony... but at the same time he doesnt' give up on his ideals. He's still Captain America and right or wrong he believes in his vision of america even if the actual one doesn't even come close to it.

As I Cap fan I personally needed to hear him say it.

[Super Villains INC>]

EDIT: And let's not forget the brilliance of the two twits telling Captain America that apparently "ideals" are obsolete and "public opinion" is everything. I guess Captain America can only be relevant if he's totally up on current events, generally ignorant, oblivious, and definitely ungrateful idiot (oh, and votes for the next "American Idol" too! That's important!). What part of standing up for "ideals" vs. standing up for "whatever the public wants" do these two morons not understand?


no kidding.....who cares if Cap knows who is the current American idol winner? Or watches the Simpsons? Give me a break!!!! That is ultra lame....Is that a barometer for excellence that we really need, or, do we really want our best heroes knowing and watching this garbage, just to "relate" to us (in our minds) and make us feel a little better that they 'are more like us"? These guys are NOT us, period. Thats why they are super-powered and we aren't. If Hulk like to watch "Heroes" who gives a flying crap after he blows thru town and destroys the place? Do you really want Captain America to be a "water-cooler" guy who asks you if you saw CSI last night? C'mon already with the pop culture BS....most of it is crap. These guys should have a little bit more important things to be thinking about than rushing home to vote for American Idol.....horrible writing Jenkins.

[XPac]

So a registered super human had foreign diplomats attacked and tried to engineer a war, yep I sure am liking this new and more accountable age where super humans can no longer cause mischief.

Hmmm, well at least he gets punished for it by .... being made the most powerful man on the planet, I bet the paper work is a nightmare and he will be taught a real lesson.


I have a feeling I'm not going to like this issue because my first thought is that Ironman has no reason to do something so stupid, on the other hand maybe Jenkins is just responding to the hack job of civil war 7.

I thought Jenkins actually did give a reasonable rationale for Stark doing what he did.

That's not to say it justifes it (as it was straight up wrong), but it made sense even if it was a gamble.

After reading the issue, I don't think Stark was actually stupid. I think he was WRONG and a total bastard... but not stupid. He knew what he was doing the entire time and it paid off for him. In hindsight Cap really didn't have a chance... Stark had this whole war for the most part mapped out from the Stark.

[XPac]

no kidding.....who cares if Cap knows who is the current American idol winner? Or watches the Simpsons? Give me a break!!!! That is ultra lame....Is that a barometer for excellence that we really need, or, do we really want our best heroes knowing and watching this garbage, just to "relate" to us (in our minds) and make us feel a little better that they 'are more like us"? These guys are NOT us, period. Thats why they are super-powered and we aren't. If Hulk like to watch "Heroes" who gives a flying crap after he blows thru town and destroys the place? Do you really want Captain America to be a "water-cooler" guy who asks you if you saw CSI last night? C'mon already with the pop culture BS....most of it is crap. These guys should have a little bit more important things to be thinking about than rushing home to vote for American Idol.....horrible writing Jenkins.

Jenkins was trying to get the message across that the america Cap fights for doesn't really exist except in his mind... but it wasn't the best way to execute that idea. It really did make Sally end up looking like a complete moron.

If I was Ben I'd seriously leave Sally home after that. Shes slightly less stupid than she was last time I suppose but that's probably because Ben was there to keep her from storming out of the room.

[Slumber Hulk]

The tried to tie a little bow on the war profiteering by saying Tony took that money and used it to create a charity for Police, Firefighters, Costumed Heroes and their families.

All in all I think it did more to redeem Tony as a hero. Yes, it showed him to be an untrusting pessimistic bastard. But one with good intentions.

[XPac]

The tried to tie a little bow on the war profiteering by saying Tony took that money and used it to create a charity for Police, Firefighters, Costumed Heroes and their families.

All in all I think it did more to redeem Tony as a hero. Yes, it showed him to be an untrusting pessimistic bastard. But one with good intentions.

I agree. He's a bastard... and I personally think he was wrong. But he's clearly not evil, and a good arguement can be made that in hindsight he served the greater good.

It's the age old question... do the ends justify the means. Tony is a beautiful example of that.

I don't want people who haven't read the issue yet but are reading this thread to think that Frontline totally buried Tony. It really did make sense on a lot of the things he did.

[Super Villains INC>]

Jenkins was trying to get the message across that the america Cap fights for doesn't really exist except in his mind... but it wasn't the best way to execute that idea. It really did make Sally end up looking like a complete moron.

If I was Ben I'd seriously leave Sally home after that. Shes slightly less stupid than she was last time I suppose but that's probably because Ben was there to keep her from storming out of the room.

exactly. I know what jenkins was trying to get out of that exchange between her and Cap, and if he would have just wrote it like your response, it would have been much better. She came off looking very vengeful to me, and more like an angry little kid. Her journalistic credentials nosedived as this sereis went on, and like someone else mentioned, how can her and Ulrich NOT report this, quite possibly the biggest story the citizens of the Marvel U would ever hear, and, more importantly, affects their lives daily. Oh, well, let's not rock the boat, and comply...maybe the Marvel U can start braodcasting a State Television, and hey, I hear the old Soviet Tass news agency is looking for work. If you take this to absurd levels, thats whats happening. Crushing a story that is huge to maintain the new marvel U political status quo. one thing, and we all know, is that the Marvel U is going to be feeling all this for a while, and you know it will come out sooner or later.

[Soundrave]

i also cant stand fucken hatters

Me neither . . . especially when they offer you coffee.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3a/MadHatter-Coffee.jpg

[MAK15]

Me neither . . . especially when they offer you coffee.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3a/MadHatter-Coffee.jpg

GAH! HOT COFFEE! LAWSUIT!LAWSUIT!

[XPac]

W...T...F?!?

So basically, Marvel continues their track record with this crossover and has the major tie-in series COMPLETELY CONTRADICT the main series?

Nothing about the War Profiteering, either? What the hell is going on here?

Seriously, this whole thing sounds completely asenine. I may be Anti-Reg to the bone, but after the end of CW #7 I was at least willing to give the Pro-Reg MU a long-term shot to prove me wrong (as opposed to ham-fisted Mark Millar trying to -tell- me I'm wrong).

Then they pull this crap? TONY ARRANGED TO HAVE AN ATLANTEAN KILLED. To have MULTIPLE Atlanteans killed, and to START A WAR WITH A FOREIGN POWER. HOW DOES THIS NOT MAKE TONY A VILLAIN?!?!

Honestly, they need to come right out and say that "Frontline" took place in an alternate reality or something, otherwise they've destroyed the entire "final message" of Civil War, and pretty much completely ruined Tony Stark as a viable heroic character. At least his hands weren't -directly- bloodied before. Now there's no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

And why the heck is this story "unpublishable?" (Or did they even bother to explain that?) Isn't this PRECISELY THE KIND OF THING REPORTERS ARE SUPPOSED TO REPORT?!?

Ben and Sally need to find new careers after this mini-series, because quite frankly if they don't publish this story they've ruined whatever credibility or integrity they had as so-called "journalists." You don't report just the pleasant truths. You report the unpleasant ones, too.

But I guess Ben and Sally are perfectly OK with a self-admitted warmonger running the most powerful paramilitary espionage organization in the world -and- being in charge of an army of superheroes.

This whole thing ticks me off almost beyond reason. Jenkins should be banned from writing anything at Marvel for the rest of history.


I don't agree that Frontline contradicted CW7 really.

CW7 showed all the good that will come from the registration. All Frontline did was show you that Stark had to break a few eggs to make an omlette.

The point of the story was SUPPOSSED to be that no one was right and no one was wrong. CW7 BY ITSELF arguably conflicts with that by tellings us that Cap was wrong.

But in Frontline we learn that it's not that cut and dry. Tony brought about a lot of good things through immoral means. It's a question of whether the ends justify the means or not.

Yes, it does sort of "ruin" the happy optimistic ending of CW7... but frankly I think it needed to be ruined. That ending almost ruined what CW was suppossed to be about... it was never suppossed to be about 1 side being completely right. Frontline made it a more balanced story.

[lightning]

I agree. He's a bastard... and I personally think he was wrong. But he's clearly not evil, and a good arguement can be made that in hindsight he served the greater good.

It's the age old question... do the ends justify the means. Tony is a beautiful example of that.

I don't want people who haven't read the issue yet but are reading this thread to think that Frontline totally buried Tony. It really did make sense on a lot of the things he did.

Well, if nothing else, the thing with Atlantean diplomat is entirely rational if you believe that the ends justify the means. It's basically exploiting the "setting aside personal differences to unite against a common foe" concept. Do the ends justify the means in this case? I'm not sure. But being this being the world of comics, I'm sure Tony has put in series a motion of events that will ultimately come back to bite him in the ass.

And as for the Captain America being a terrorist? That's a bit of a stretch if you ask me. He certainly is/was a criminal vigilante. Part of the poor execution (in my mind) of Civil War was that it wasn't clear what Cap really intended to do with regards to the SHRA. It's one thing to ignore it and assist those who do not intend to comply to evade the authorities. I'd even go so far as to argue prison breaks and throwing down with Iron Man doesn't even qualify as terrorism. To me, where the Secret Avengers fall short of the "terrorist" label is the lack of violence directed at non-combatants to acheive political or ideological ends.

Unless there's a hidden issue where the Secret Avengers are planning to blow up shopping malls and gas stations until the SHRA is repealed, I don't think what they do qualifies as terrorism. Criminal? Almost certainly. To me, what would have made Civil War more interesting would be if members of the Underground did resort to outright terrorist acts. The perfect point to escalate the situation would be if following the death of the Goliath, someone blew up a Stark Industries factory somewhere. I think the story would have been far more compelling if elements of the Underground did engage in outright terrorist activities to acheive their ends (it also would have helped immensely if they had an concrete goal to begin with). Then Tony and Cap are both in a bind - they both would be advocating a concrete position (implementation/replea of SHRA), but elements on their "side" are engaged in activities that are outright wrong.

[XPac]

Well, if nothing else, the thing with Atlantean diplomat is entirely rational if you believe that the ends justify the means. It's basically exploiting the "setting aside personal differences to unite against a common foe" concept. Do the ends justify the means in this case? I'm not sure. But being this being the world of comics, I'm sure Tony has put in series a motion of events that will ultimately come back to bite him in the ass.

And as for the Captain America being a terrorist? That's a bit of a stretch if you ask me. He certainly is/was a criminal vigilante. Part of the poor execution (in my mind) of Civil War was that it wasn't clear what Cap really intended to do with regards to the SHRA. It's one thing to ignore it and assist those who do not intend to comply to evade the authorities. I'd even go so far as to argue prison breaks and throwing down with Iron Man doesn't even qualify as terrorism. To me, where the Secret Avengers fall short of the "terrorist" label is the lack of violence directed at non-combatants to acheive political or ideological ends.

Unless there's a hidden issue where the Secret Avengers are planning to blow up shopping malls and gas stations until the SHRA is repealed, I don't think what they do qualifies as terrorism. Criminal? Almost certainly. To me, what would have made Civil War more interesting would be if members of the Underground did resort to outright terrorist acts. The perfect point to escalate the situation would be if following the death of the Goliath, someone blew up a Stark Industries factory somewhere. I think the story would have been far more compelling if elements of the Underground did engage in outright terrorist activities to acheive their ends (it also would have helped immensely if they had an concrete goal to begin with). Then Tony and Cap are both in a bind - they both would be advocating a concrete position (implementation/replea of SHRA), but elements on their "side" are engaged in activities that are outright wrong.


Well, that's the thing about Cap... he essentially had no plan whatsoever beyond simply freeing prisoners. For the most part, that's all he did. Attack transports, and attack a prision. He ended up having no real plan or agenda (which in hindsight shows you why he lost).

On one hand that does make him come off looking pretty stupid. But at least it makes him come off less villianous (not that Cap should ever look like a villian). There was no agenda beyond helping his allies... no master plan, no conspiracy, and contrary to what some might think no agenda to implement the use of terror as a means of coercion (the definition of a terrorist) In Caps mind, for better or for worse, it never even got that far.

If they were serious about fighting this law, the real leader of this should have been Black Panter. Cap is a great rallying point to get people to join up and the best field leader in the business (as he did end up beating Tony's side despite being arguably underpowered), but he doens't have what it takes to fight a political war. Especially against his own country. It just wasn't in him.

[Orin GA]

I remember seeing a scan where dr strange was in astral form and looking down on some body. What book was that?

[The Lucky One]

Again, I think that's an incredibyl horrible stance for a journalist to take... but it also conveys the notion that Starks not a complete monster. He's doing some good things, and even the people that know first hand the horrible deeds hes doing recognize that.

Right. That's what we call "the ends justifying the means." And yeah... some people do think that's okay.

All in all I think it did more to redeem Tony as a hero. Yes, it showed him to be an untrusting pessimistic bastard. But one with good intentions.

You know, I think I once heard something about a road that was paved with those. Now where did that go...?

-D

[The Lucky One]

Yes, it does sort of "ruin" the happy optimistic ending of CW7...

Wait... CW #7 had a happy, optimistic ending? :confused:

I'm not trying to be snide or sarcastic, I swear... was it really supposed to be optimistic? The bad guys won. I read it and got this feeling of impending doom. It read like the ending of The Empire Strikes Back.

-D

[CMBMOOL]

To me this issue just shows that despite his knowledge in politics , Captain America really was the real hero in Civil War, acted just like he would in the end. Even though his ideal for America might not come true it just goes to show that with a little inspiration can change anyone life.


Tony on the other hands, is one manipulative bastard, for using alot of people to get his point notice. This issue just goes to show that despite him being a hero, he is a real control freak of a jerk. :mad:

Here's hoping that the Hulk would smash him to a tin can in World War Hulk. :mad:

[XPac]

Right. That's what we call "the ends justifying the means." And yeah... some people do think that's okay.



You know, I think I once heard something about a road that was paved with those. Now where did that go...?

-D

And that's probably where we're going (really, when does a government initiated utopia project not lead to that).

Joe Q said that he wants the MU to become a more uncertain place... that can't be accomplished by an utopian project that solves all the MU's woes. They wouldn't have allowed the registration to win if it was actually going to suceed.

It'll fail in the end and Tony will likely have to pay a heavy price for what he's done (though I don't see that happening for a few years). That's just kharma for you.

Cap made a mistake, admitted it, apologized for it, and is now paying the price for it. Tony on the other hand acted wrongly and was rewarded with more power than he could have ever hoped for. Kharmically speaking, he's sitting on a house of cards that sooner or later will collapsse.

[XPac]

Wait... CW #7 had a happy, optimistic ending? :confused:

I'm not trying to be snide or sarcastic, I swear... was it really supposed to be optimistic? The bad guys won. I read it and got this feeling of impending doom. It read like the ending of The Empire Strikes Back.

-D

That's the running joke of it... a TON of people read the ending hearing the star wars imperial march song in the back of their minds. That was even mentioned to Millar in interviews. But the way he talks about it, it sounds like it was actually intended to be optimistic.

I AGREE with you though... I felt it was intentionally misleading.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

This issue justified CW #7 for me, but I did have ONE problem:

Sally, nuff' said.

[IamtheRock3]

The tried to tie a little bow on the war profiteering by saying Tony took that money and used it to create a charity for Police, Firefighters, Costumed Heroes and their families.

All in all I think it did more to redeem Tony as a hero. Yes, it showed him to be an untrusting pessimistic bastard. But one with good intentions.

there a lot of VILLANS with good END justify the means attentions

[Pendaran]

I'd have thought there would have been more hue and cry about the 30+ dead civilians that came out of the fight being taken to New York. Huh.

[IamtheRock3]

oh and PLEASE tell me Sally and ben were being sarcastic

[Vaal]

there a lot of VILLANS with good END justify the means attentions

Magneto, for example.

[IamtheRock3]

I'd have thought there would have been more hue and cry about the 30+ dead civilians that came out of the fight being taken to New York. Huh.

So wait Cap got 30 Civies Killed

And IRON man assanations officals and starting Wars without the goverment permission

GREAAAAAAAAAT marvel...just Great

[Pendaran]

So wait Cap got 30 Civies Killed

And IRON man assanations officals and starting Wars without the goverment permission

GREAAAAAAAAAT marvel...just Great

Well, I'm sure lots of other heroes can share in the blame for that first one. I mean, not the Thing, who showed up to lay into both sides in order to try and save people, and I suppose the pro reg side attempted some sort of what's starting to look like a half assed evacuation of the area, to be technical.

[XPac]

So wait Cap got 30 Civies Killed

And IRON man assanations officals and starting Wars without the goverment permission

GREAAAAAAAAAT marvel...just Great

Truthfully Cap didn't even have a whole lot to do with that. That was a mistake on the part of BP, Cloak and Dagger. Though Cap is in change, so he realistically has to shoulder some of the blame.

It was a mistake though. Which isn't to say it's okay... but it doesn't make them bad people.

Iron Man thing is a much much harder thing to justify. But the thing is we're talking about Tony, not Cap. Beinga freaking saint is a part of Caps character, but Tony is kind of a manipulative bastard so you don't have to try as hard to justify his characters actions.

That said it was wrong. He should be held accountable for that.

[IamtheRock3]

Well, I'm sure lots of other heroes can share in the blame for that first one. I mean, not the Thing, who showed up to lay into both sides in order to try and save people, and I suppose the pro reg side attempted some sort of evacuation of the area, to be technical.

Well during a police chase, if it goes through a high popular Town, or Surburn, suspose to break of the speed chase, I mean they DONT most of the time but suspose to

But Still Cap aint coming out good in this either. The final battle plan was sloppy and bit reckless.So least it balance that way I guess

Do find it odd, that for like 20 years of fighting they manage not to kill anyone during these fights, but now all of a suddent the death tolls are high, CONVIENTLY at the LAST CHAPTER of Cival war

So what Anti Regers and people going to have high Civilan Death counts in these fights. Oh and sure Tony little insane Plan not going to bite him on the butt

Again GREAT marvel just great

not going to be one of those guys who say

"YOUR RUINING my child hood and I SHALL NEVER read marvel again"

that extreme

But this ideed...blows

blows hard.

wicked hard

[Pendaran]

But the thing is we're talking about Tony, not Cap.

Why aren't we talking about Cap? Guy had Namor and an army of Atlanteans functionally come draw out a massive fight in the middle of New York on his request, according to editor statements on why Namor and co showed, and over 30 bystanders are dead.

Hey, Tony comes out of this looking like abject scum, sure, but so does.. everyone but the Thing, to various degrees.

[XPac]

Why aren't we talking about Cap? Guy had Namor and an army of Atlanteans functionally come draw out a massive fight in the middle of New York on his request, according to editor statements on why Namor and co showed, and over 30 bystanders are dead.

Hey, Tony comes out of this looking like abject scum, sure, but so does.. everyone but the Thing, to various degrees.

That's certainly fair.

Cap made a mistake. And he did admit it, apologize for it, and allowed himself to be arrested. Doesn't make his mistake go away... but he's doing about as much as you can expect of him. Really, he's the ONLY one that's stepping up and paying the price for it.

[IamtheRock3]

Why aren't we talking about Cap? Guy had Namor and an army of Atlanteans functionally come draw out a massive fight in the middle of New York on his request, according to editor statements on why Namor and co showed, and over 30 bystanders are dead.

Hey, Tony comes out of this looking like abject scum, sure, but so does.. everyone but the Thing, to various degrees.

Well Iron man got to take some blame for that fight to. With his rookie team showing up

Well Tony worst, cause Cap's was an accident a DUMB accident


Tony...lets make it clear PLAINED a homicide. He MURDERED a guy. not man slaught...assited in PREMEDITATED murder..of a goverment offical.

To start a War. With a relativly powerfull country. A Private Citezen..Plan to start a War, Goverment didnt tell him to do this. He did cause he figure..hey MATH is correct

I mean basicly if Tony forgot to carry the one..where are $ucked

Lied to the goverment
Lied to his friends
lied to the heroes
Lied to the Atlantians
Lied to the American people


Cap wreckless DUMBA$$

Tony Villaness JackA$$

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Here's my thing:

Cap made plenty of mistakes. But he's taking as much heat for it as he needs to, and apologizing.

Tony PLANNED his "mistakes", is getting little heat for them, and is too busy leading SHIELD and every hero in America to apologize.

That's f**ked up.

[Pendaran]

Cap wreckless DUMBA$$

Tony Villaness JackA$$

Hence, various degrees.

Tony gets people killed because of intentional stupidity.

Cap gets people killed because of reckless stupidity.

That's basically Civil War. Woo, or somethin.

[agrich]

Do find it odd, that for like 20 years of fighting they manage not to kill anyone during these fights, but now all of a suddent the death tolls are high, CONVIENTLY at the LAST CHAPTER of Cival war

I don't know. I'm not going to say they're making comics "more real" by saying there are civilian casualties, but really, even as a kid I had to wonder how the Hulk could battle a giant robot in New York City and no one ever got killed. Except for when Jarella got killed pushing a little child out of the way of a falling building. (Or when Captain Stacy got killed the exact same way in Spider-man.) Throughout comic history and all those hero-villain battles in New York City, the only two innocent bystanders ever killed were Jarella and Captain Stacy? I doubt it.

I think there should be a miniseries investigating the cover-up of all those civilian casualties from hero-villain battles in big cities during the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s. :)

[XPac]

Here's my thing:

Cap made plenty of mistakes. But he's taking as much heat for it as he needs to, and apologizing.

Tony PLANNED his "mistakes", is getting little heat for them, and is too busy leading SHIELD and every hero in America to apologize.

That's f**ked up.

YEah... that's the messed up thing about it. It's why people heard the Star Wars impreial march song in their heads at the end.

Both made mistakes, but one is sitting in a jail sell while the other is sitting in a brand new office as director of SHIELD. There's a certain lack of justice in that.

But Kharma does have a way of catching up to people.

[IamtheRock3]

Hence, various degrees.

Tony gets people killed because of intentional stupidity.

Cap gets people killed because of reckless stupidity.

That's basically Civil War. Woo, or somethin.

big differnce is Cap get Jail time and admit his mistakes


Tony get power, and maybe some HOT tail on the side, while getting all sorts of praises

it BETTER be some cumupence for the guy



And RESPONSE to
agrish

I hear you but it kind of odd ALL OF A SUDDENT the F ups happening
Guess it in unavoible. Sense your adding Realisim to something that been going on for decades. So odd stuff like that will happens

Still weird and make the heroes look dumb

[Pendaran]

But Kharma does have a way of catching up to people.

If the best you can hope for is that Tony gets overthrown by someone else with a regular bodycount to their name, that's a pretty sad statement on the Marvel Universe.

[XPac]

I don't know. I'm not going to say they're making comics "more real" by saying there are civilian casualties, but really, even as a kid I had to wonder how the Hulk could battle a giant robot in New York City and no one ever got killed. Except for when Jarella got killed pushing a little child out of the way of a falling building. (Or when Captain Stacy got killed the exact same way in Spider-man.) Throughout comic history and all those hero-villain battles in New York City, the only two innocent bystanders ever killed were Jarella and Captain Stacy? I doubt it.

I think there should be a miniseries investigating the cover-up of all those civilian casualties from hero-villain battles in big cities during the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s. :)

I wouldn't want there being realistic casualties for EVERY story. But I'm okay with some realistic consequences for THIS story because that's what it's kind of about.

[MoriartyL]

After hearing a little bit of Jenkins talking online about where he was going with this series, I figured I must have misread the first few issues. So I came back onboard, and gave him the benefit of the doubt for every inexcusable characterization I reread because I now knew there was sure to be a big twist in the end which would paint all the characters in a more favorable light.

Silly me.

I've seen forum-posters here and elsewhere try to excuse Paul Jenkins for his writing. "It seems like the editors forced him to go in the wrong direction!"; "He didn't have enough space to tell The Return!"; "His creativity is held back by the other writers!"; and so on.

But I think this eleventh issue just shows a more fundamental problem with Jenkins' writing in general, and making excuses just makes it harder to see that single problem. You see, Mr. Jenkins has a very special "gift": He can write any sort of story, with any sort of characters, and make those characters completely unlikeable, such that by the end of the story the reader is frustrated and furious with all those character's decisions and positions.

I've personally been pro-reg the whole time, and I happened to think Cap's surrender was downright heroic. So a writer who's twisting a story around to show that the registration guys were good and the anti-reg guys were bad has a very easy job to do as far as appealing to me is concerned. And yet, genius that he is, Jenkins managed to completely screw it up.

Let's take this final issue to illustrate Jenkins' critical flaw. Let's start with Sally, because she gets the most panel-time -and therefore comes off least sympathetic. She quits her job for no apparent reason. She once again throws ridiculous criticisms at Captain America without giving him a chance to respond. Then she goes to Tony Stark, rambles at him about lots of terrible and baffling things he supposedly did, and applauds him for it. By the end, no one could respect Sally Floyd. Ben's sole contribution to the story is standing around and not doing anything to stop Sally from these ridiculous actions, so he comes off as an idiot as well- that one critical line of dialogue notwithstanding. (Dialogue is all well and good, but it needs to be backed up with actions.) Captain America comes across as misguided since he's never allowed to defend himself properly and what he does say doesn't sound sincere. And then Iron Man. The strange, immoral actions we've seen from Tony in the past are not only not justified, they're covered in even more immoral and strange actions. Then in the end we see him break down and cry, which doesn't make any of that better so much as it makes him look like a wimp who doesn't know what he's doing.

Tell me, what other writer could turn every character he touches into pure sh**? It's a gift, I tell you, a gift. Some day people will tell fables about the Jenkas Touch.

Am I saying he should never write anything? No. Well, not quite. See, there is one type of story he excels at: comedy. In comedy, it's actually a good thing to be able to laugh at every single character. And so Jenkins is capable of some really funny stuff.


So what the heck is he doing trying to write superhero books?! And why do these editors let him?!

[Jmacq1]

That's the running joke of it... a TON of people read the ending hearing the star wars imperial march song in the back of their minds. That was even mentioned to Millar in interviews. But the way he talks about it, it sounds like it was actually intended to be optimistic.

I AGREE with you though... I felt it was intentionally misleading.

Tom Brevoort basically said "Take it however you want." But Millar has made perfectly clear that everything was intended to be on the up-and-up. He meant for it to be entirely optimistic and to wrap everything up in a neat little bow.

Just a lot of readers aren't seeing it his way, which is perfectly natural (and apparently valid, if the issue we're discussing here is taken into account).

[IamtheRock3]

was it frontline that added the 30 civilan death count

or miller

[XPac]

Tom Brevoort basically said "Take it however you want." But Millar has made perfectly clear that everything was intended to be on the up-and-up. He meant for it to be entirely optimistic and to wrap everything up in a neat little bow.

Just a lot of readers aren't seeing it his way, which is perfectly natural (and apparently valid, if the issue we're discussing here is taken into account).

If Millar honestly wasn't trying to be a tad emotionally manipulative, then I definately think there's a bit of a disconnect between Millar and the readers.

I don't wanna speak for all readers... but it's honestly hard to imagine that he didn't realize a LOT of readers would be interpeting the story in a less than optomistic manner. For a lot of readers it just wouldn't ring true that Tony's side was so completely right at the end of the day, especially when all along the story was advertised as being about 2 sides that were both right and wrong.

[Xero]

I liked the issue, and I liked how they basically said Tony Stark is a Bastard and a Hero. No problem with that. I just remember how well a similar plan worked out for Ozymandias. Are Sally and Ben going to be "Rorsached" by the Sentry sooner or later?

[sgt pepper]

Not to be outdone by Cap (loser!), Iron Man takes his moment to cry for absolutely no reason, too.

What the-?

[bulbasteve]

Blah I can't even wait to read all the replies to vent my anger. Trust me, it's not being pro-reg, this stuff goes against everything else said in the series.

ASM showed the registration act being crafted before Stamford, hell Reed spoke out against it YEARS ago, and now it is rushed legislation?

The main series talks about 90% approval and overwealming public support but now he needs to engineer some war to get people for the act? And what is it supposed to be just for the heroes, he wants to start a war with Atlantis so he can have Nextwave register!? That is beyond stupid.

And Cap is suddenly a 2nd amendment gun nut? This was a battle between liberals from the beginning, since when does he believe in the right to bear arms...he uses a shield for pete's sake!

[MAK15]

Not to be outdone by Cap (loser!), Iron Man takes his moment to cry for absolutely no reason, too.

What the-?

everyone knows crying builds character!
*sniff* ;)

[IamtheRock3]

Blah I can't even wait to read all the replies to vent my anger. Trust me, it's not being pro-reg, this stuff goes against everything else said in the series.

ASM showed the registration act being crafted before Stamford, hell Reed spoke out against it YEARS ago, and now it is rushed legislation?

The main series talks about 90% approval and overwealming public support but now he needs to engineer some war to get people for the act? And what is it supposed to be just for the heroes, he wants to start a war with Atlantis so he can have Nextwave register!? That is beyond stupid.

And Cap is suddenly a 2nd amendment gun nut? This was a battle between liberals from the beginning, since when does he believe in the right to bear arms...he uses a shield for pete's sake!

well in fairness, the shiled can cut through metal like butter

[bulbasteve]

Maybe the Confession will give Caps real reasons for going to war. But I can't imagine anti-regs are any happier than pro-regs at Cap believing Punisher style vigitlantism is constitutional and that being the reason for fighting.

Don't even get me started on the reporters...well Sally can be an idiot, ok. But Ben Urich!?

And seriously, what happened to the whole war profiteering plot thread?

Personally? I'm going to pretend Tony was just mad at them making such insane accusations and he was just crying over Happy Hogan.

[Saotome]

Then they pull this crap? TONY ARRANGED TO HAVE AN ATLANTEAN KILLED. To have MULTIPLE Atlanteans killed, and to START A WAR WITH A FOREIGN POWER. HOW DOES THIS NOT MAKE TONY A VILLAIN?!?!


BA! Tony's been a villain ever since he deemed death to the supreme intelligence.:evilsmile :evilsmile :)

[garin]

Unsurprisingly, this was completely stupid.

Please people, do not buy World War Hulk: Frontline. The madness has to stop.

[Vaal]

ASM showed the registration act being crafted before Stamford, hell Reed spoke out against it YEARS ago, and now it is rushed legislation?
I figure they've been trying to get a version of mutant registration through that wouldn't get shot down in court through for a very long time. They probably widened to scope to target all supers as part of that. But then someone added the whole 'slaves of sHIELD' thing in there around Syamford and used Stamford to push it through without many Senators reading through it clearly.

The main series talks about 90% approval and overwealming public support but now he needs to engineer some war to get people for the act? And what is it supposed to be just for the heroes, he wants to start a war with Atlantis so he can have Nextwave register!? That is beyond stupid.
The 90% number was probably bull all along. Even people in the MU aren't that stupid. You can play polls to prove anything, but that doesn't mean the capitol and real support is there. That needed some good old fashioned terroism to carry out.

And Cap is suddenly a 2nd amendment gun nut? This was a battle between liberals from the beginning, since when does he believe in the right to bear arms...he uses a shield for pete's sake!
A shield with which he can disarm and render unconcious dozens of nazis in one throw. That's a better weapon than any phallus Cable's ever carried.

[XPac]

BA! Tony's been a villain ever since he deemed death to the supreme intelligence.:evilsmile :evilsmile :)

That's the subjectivity of using the world "villian" I suppose.

I think what he did was wrong. But his intent was good and the end result was that the greater good was served. Does that justify it? I don't think so... but nor does this make him an irredemable character.

We've seen characters destroy entire universes before and still manage to salvage themselves as characters.

Iron Man just has to do what Cap did... admit he was wrong, apologize, and answere whatever consequences that come from his mistakes and he'll be find.

[Soundrave]

I didn't like this issue at all.

But, rather than get into that, who's the winged hero with the golden eagle helmet and the ankh around his neck in Seattle (right before they go to visit Stark)? He looks familiar but I can't put my finger on a name . . .

[XPac]

The 90% number was probably bull all along. Even people in the MU aren't that stupid. You can play polls to prove anything, but that doesn't mean the capitol and real support is there. That needed some good old fashioned terroism to carry out.



I think the attack on the Atlanteans was largely more about the heroes than the public anyways. Stark admitted that after the Bill Foster incident, Cap got the majority of the hero behind him.

He needed something to bring them back on his side, and to unify his community. The fear of the Atlasntis invasion did just that.

And it's also a way to justify asking for more money from the government. That's a no brainer.

[Vaal]

If that's the case, I hope he appreciates the irony of the fact that he was trying to solve a problem caused by him helping kill someone (Goliath) by killing someone else.

Warmachine:"IM, you can't solve all your problems with killing."
IM: "I don't know, Rhodey, I'm having a problem with you not shutting the hell up right now..."

[CMBMOOL]

Unsurprisingly, this was completely stupid.

Please people, do not buy World War Hulk: Frontline. The madness has to stop.

Unless Sally and Ben learn of Tony's involvment with the Hulk's latest rampage and send it to the press, then I'm not reading the main series only the back up stories. :D

[XPac]

If that's the case, I hope he appreciates the irony of the fact that he was trying to solve a problem caused by him helping kill someone (Goliath) by killing someone else.

Judging from his reaction at the end of the issue, I don't think the irony escaped him. He obviously does have a soul some where beneath the layers of iron.... it's just not getting in the way of what he (wrongly in my opinion) believes needs to be done.

[Sijo]

Meh, it was pretty much what I expected; a story telling us that you can't trust anyone- the heroes, the government, the media, or even the American people. (Sally's argument with Cap- that he was fighting for the ideals of America rather than the Reality- has to be most stupid (but funny, in a way) line in the whole crossover.) Right, let's stop figthing for the betterment of America and just settle down into some nice fascism. :rolleyes:

As for Tony, I just won't believe that he was behind *everything* including causing deaths to advance the War (just as I don't buy Cap as being too obsessed not to see the facts.) At that point, he's not a hero anymore. (Note I'm not saying I don't see his logic- just that, to get there, you have to cross certain moral lines that a true hero -idealistic fool or not- never would.)

And once again, CW gets retconned/misinterpreted: "Aww, I wasn't going to keep them inside 42 forever, I was just bluffing!" Yeah, right.

My conclusion is that Civil War -at least the Main Series and Frontline- were written by people with extremely cynical views of life, offering exposition on the matter but no real answers or hope. Now, I'm not saying that such a viewpoint isn't justified- we DO live in a world where our leaders seem incompetent, where our soldiers are dying in a war we don't understand, where The Church is suspect of hiding pedophiles, and even our Entertainment Celebrities suffer breakdowns all the time. What I'm not convinced of is if this point is completely justified in the Marvel Universe, which, yes, has had a history of injustice (see: Mutant Persecution, for example) but also moments of triumph and heroism. And most of us (presumably) read the comics for those.

Ah, well. If Marvel has decided to market themselves that way, apparently to sell to the Young Cynical comics-buying public of today, so be it. I'll buy their comics again when I see them veer back.

[Pendaran]

was it frontline that added the 30 civilan death count

or miller

Frontline, and over 30, I forget the exact number.

[garin]

What the hell is the story with Wonder Man? SHIELD blackmail him to investigate the Atlanteans, and Tony uses the Goblin to blow him up. Is it a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, or does Jenkins want us to believe Tony is a complete maniac?

The one (small) saving grace of this issue is that Tony doesn't actually confirm all the stuff they lay on him. His crying fit may have been unrelated.. maybe he was using his extremis powers to watch The Shawshank Redemption.

It's a shame there's no easy out for Cap's ridiculous interview.

[Siddon]

56 with 6 superhumans

anyways

crying

crying


there's no crying in comics. You don't get to cry at the end of the story and realize that you did a bad thing. It's like Iron Man and Captain America have turned into 17 year old Orange County girls who get a red jag instead of an Escalade. I seriously expected to start hearing fall out boy in the back ground. Speedball thinks this guys have to toughen up. I was have expecting for Doctor Doom and Wolverine to get into a slap fight screaming "not in the face not it face" after this comic.

[bulbasteve]

I figure they've been trying to get a version of mutant registration through that wouldn't get shot down in court through for a very long time. They probably widened to scope to target all supers as part of that. But then someone added the whole 'slaves of sHIELD' thing in there around Syamford and used Stamford to push it through without many Senators reading through it clearly.

But that really isn't what was shown in ASM. I mean Stark was there testifying about it, it was already pretty much in it's finalized form pre-Stamford as shown in ASM. There was nothing rushed about it.

The 90% number was probably bull all along. Even people in the MU aren't that stupid. You can play polls to prove anything, but that doesn't mean the capitol and real support is there. That needed some good old fashioned terroism to carry out.

To be fair upon rereading it seems Stark was only talking about the supers. Which again is really freakin moronic, because pretty much ALL the heavy hiters were pro-reg. Who the hell cares what way Typeface would have went! And none of the big names seem to give a damn one way or another about atlantis for why they accepted amnesty. So why in the hell would he do it? There is just no good reason.

A shield with which he can disarm and render unconcious dozens of nazis in one throw. That's a better weapon than any phallus Cable's ever carried.

I'm talking more about why he feels the anti-regs were right. He is not talking about any abuses that might happen, but only that the thinks that ANYONE should have the right to be a vigilante. He cites the 2nd amendment as supporting vigilantism. I mean hell in all my time on this forum I have never heard an anti-reg make that stupid of an argument for their side.

My conclusion is that Civil War -at least the Main Series and Frontline- were written by people with extremely cynical views of life, offering exposition on the matter but no real answers or hope. Now, I'm not saying that such a viewpoint isn't justified- we DO live in a world where our leaders seem incompetent, where our soldiers are dying in a war we don't understand, where The Church is suspect of hiding pedophiles, and even our Entertainment Celebrities suffer breakdowns all the time. What I'm not convinced of is if this point is completely justified in the Marvel Universe, which, yes, has had a history of injustice (see: Mutant Persecution, for example) but also moments of triumph and heroism. And most of us (presumably) read the comics for those.

I still think Millar shed his cynicism for one book and made an actually positive thing (well the ending at least). A superhero who tries to stop global warming is an ACTUAL superhero, not just reacting to the Rhino busting up downtown.

The one (small) saving grace of this issue is that Tony doesn't actually confirm all the stuff they lay on him. His crying fit may have been unrelated.. maybe he was using his extremis powers to watch The Shawshank Redemption.

It's a shame there's no easy out for Cap's ridiculous interview.

I still say it's about Happy Hogan.

I'll explain away Cap's by saying he is just umm toying with Sally cause he hates her just as much as us?

[jaxcs]

Cap was a terrorist. That's not in question here. As to Iron Man, we'll see.

Dude....Iron Man is a terrorist. That's not in question here.

[tavella]

Hence, various degrees.

Tony gets people killed because of intentional stupidity.

Cap gets people killed because of reckless stupidity.

That's basically Civil War. Woo, or somethin.

Yup. That was my sum-up of it after Civil War #7. "Tony and Reed become supervillians. Captain America is stupid for six issues and then gives up."

Yay. Or something.

[Den]

I'd have thought there would have been more hue and cry about the 30+ dead civilians that came out of the fight being taken to New York. Huh.

You're kidding me? They claimed that?

I'm just going to stick my fingers in my ears and pretend that obviously our 'reporters' didn't double check their facts or were feed misinformation. The Hulk's rampages have been altered/retconned so he was a massmurderer. Dan Slott was against that, and pointed out that that meant, logically, other supehero fights would have lead to the same.

And here we are, that now being the case it seems. How prophetic.

From now on, I guess we should just assume that everytime a superhero blasts or throws something, a kitten dies.

[jaxcs]

Kind of amusing little thing: Spidey wore IM's colors for a while in CW, but then changed to a villain's colors (Venom). Its almost as symbolic of how far Tonyss fallen.

I liked the red and gold costume. I liked it more than the black one. I dug the arms, the ballistic cloth and the radio thing.

[MAK15]

Unsurprisingly, this was completely stupid.

Please people, do not buy World War Hulk: Frontline. The madness has to stop.

but I like my madness!
and I also like seeing how reporters look at issues when their world is filled with super-peoples.
I wanna Frontline monthly that's not a tie-in to nothin!

[tavella]

You're kidding me? They claimed that?

I'm just going to stick my fingers in my ears and pretend that obviously our 'reporters' didn't double check their facts or were feed misinformation. The Hulk's rampages have been altered/retconned so he was a massmurderer. Dan Slott was against that, and pointed out that that meant, logically, other supehero fights would have lead to the same.

And here we are, that now being the case it seems. How prophetic.

From now on, I guess we should just assume that everytime a superhero blasts or throws something, a kitten dies.

Oh, no. You see, they are registered! Trained! Not like that Captain America person.

Yeah, that 47 death count just made me roll my eyes. First Millar writes him as an idiot for the entire series, and then they turn him into a mass murderer, just in case people thought the CW #7 ending was ironic. I'm fine with more realism in collateral damage, but that wasn't realism, it was just repealing the Magic Marvel Bystander Protection long enough to hang a big death count on anti-reg to make them look worse.

[jaxcs]

Sally: "America is no longer about Mom and Apple Pie it's about high cholesterol and Paris Hilton and scheming your way to the top."
Yeah, even if it means killing a black guy or two in the process. I can see how anyone fighting for improving things a bit must be really evil.
Way to go Sally. You've nailed it perfectly.
"The Country I love treats its celebrities like royalty and its teachers like dirt." Man, talking about kissing the boot that kicks you.

Congratulations Mr. Jenkins.

That little speech of Sally's wasn't just bad, it was awful. The fact that people are interested in celebretiy garbage doesn't mean that it should be celebrated. The details change, but the general movements don't. There were celebrity scandals when Cap was a lad too. How much does Sally know about greta gable? I don't think that little speech showed a single thing.

[bulbasteve]

Oh, no. You see, they are registered! Trained! Not like that Captain America person.

Yeah, that 47 death count just made me roll my eyes. First Millar writes him as an idiot for the entire series, and then they turn him into a mass murderer, just in case people thought the CW #7 ending was ironic. I'm fine with more realism in collateral damage, but that wasn't realism, it was just repealing the Magic Marvel Bystander Protection long enough to hang a big death count on anti-reg to make them look worse.

Oh and don't forget how it makes the pro-regs look bad because they weren't able to evacuate those 50 people.

And look Millar hardly wrote Cap as an idiot. Millar came at it I think from the mainstream anti-reg position of "they will start telling us who the supervillains are" which I think is right from the book, and you can sure see it from his original script for the last one, that Caps major issue was government abuse.

I don't think Millar or hell...anyone aside from Jenkins would have Cap say that we have a right to bare arms and use them against the government whenever they pass a law we don't like. To Millar he might have had his original "keep doing the business as usual" philosophy be perverted into that by the end of the book because of the nature of the war (same perversion of anti-reg ideals of having the Punisher as Pro-reg ideals in using cyber clones), but not to have it be some sort of underlying philosophy for his actions. If anything Millar said that Cap realized all those opinions he stated in the cell were totally wrong.

[The Anti-Existence]

The real kick in the pants is we STILL don't know why Cap let himself get arrested. We know he stopped believing in fighting for that ideal was the right path to victory but what is the meaning of him being in prison? Is there some plan behind it?

Sally is a good poster child for the Pro-Reg side. She said things basically word-for-word that I have heard people say after CW #7. Her little pop culture speech was a great showing of how an ideal is much better than the reality. I'd much rather have a Captain America who fights for a cause, a dream, rather than one who fights for...American idol?

[bulbasteve]

The real kick in the pants is we STILL don't know why Cap let himself get arrested. We know he stopped believing in fighting for that ideal was the right path to victory but what is the meaning of him being in prison? Is there some plan behind it?

Sally is a good poster child for the Pro-Reg side. She said things basically word-for-word that I have heard people say after CW #7. Her little pop culture speech was a great showing of how an ideal is much better than the reality. I'd much rather have a Captain America who fights for a cause, a dream, rather than one who fights for...American idol?

Well if Jenkins has his way the very ideals we thought he was fighting for weren't his ideals at all and he has become what us pro-regs usually villified him as. He literally sounds like a gunnut crackpot in that speech he gives. I mean god, he is saying "we should violently fight any law we don't like....but I really don't want people to get hurt doing it".

I don't know who you are talking too, but no pro-reg here really ever talked like that. Hell most of us were on the same page as Millar from day one talking about superheroes doing more for the world than supercrime. Yes we believe that you should follow the law while it is in place, but that has nothing to do with if you like the ideas of the law or not. I doubt anyone was pro-reg just because everyone in the MU liked it, more because of "the superhero for the 21st century", "heroes people can believe in again" type of stuff. At the end of the day this wasn't really a battle between ideals and how things really are (though there is a lot of it there), but more "traditional" versus "progressive" ideals.

[The Xenos]

Damn if she's not right and former Captain America is, like, totally out of it.

Remember, if you don't have a MySpace page or if you don't vote for American Idol, then you're not America. See, that's real American values. Going on YouTube and posting videos of your cat or making the important vote for either Justin or Kelly, now THAT is what America is built on.

Screw this constituional bullcrap, grandpa. Give me Clay Aiken or give me death!

[Kevinroc]

Unsurprisingly, this was completely stupid.

Please people, do not buy World War Hulk: Frontline. The madness has to stop.

WWH: Frontline is supposed to have a back-up story about Korg making a detective solve a murder quickly.

And two-page back-ups about super heroes complaining about having to protect Rhode Island.

Of course, I'd love to see Ben and Sally just try to interview Hulk.

Sally: You don't know what myspace is. How dare you think you can rule this planet.

Hulk: I don't give a **** what you think.

Ben: You're causing a lot of property damage and causing people to flee in terror.

Hulk: So what?

:p

[The Lucky One]

Both made mistakes, but one is sitting in a jail sell while the other is sitting in a brand new office as director of SHIELD. There's a certain lack of justice in that.

What... you don't like the idea of the most powerful military presence on the planet being run by an obvious madman?

Puritan.





I mean, think of the comedy potential! It's like putting Paste Pot Pete in charge of the country's nuclear launch codes. You know he's going to &%*$ it up somehow, to the tune of hilarity!

-D

[Den]

Between Millar and Jenkins, I have about decided that overly cynical British writers are the LAST people to try to educate others on what America and its dream is or is not.

[Kevinroc]

What... you don't like the idea of the most powerful military presence on the planet being run by an obvious madman?

Puritan.

-D

He could do something crazy like start wars and destroy America's credibility or something... :p

[The Anti-Existence]

WWH: Frontline is supposed to have a back-up story about Korg making a detective solve a murder quickly.

And two-page back-ups about super heroes complaining about having to protect Rhode Island.

Of course, I'd love to see Ben and Sally just try to interview Hulk.

Sally: You don't know what myspace is. How dare you think you can rule this planet.

Hulk: I don't give a **** what you think.

Ben: You're causing a lot of property damage and causing people to flee in terror.

Hulk: So what?

Sally: The world isn’t about “conquering” anymore. It’s about the stock market, computers and the digital age. Barbaric warlords are obsolete.

Hulk: HULK SMASH!!

Ben: Don’t try and deny it, Mr. Hulk. We got the evidence to prove you’re the mastermind behind all these “HULK WILL RULE EARTH” campaigns.

HULK: HULK SMASH!!!

Sally: Did you even see the last episode of Lost? How can You rule the world?

Ben: You’re a true genius, Mr. Hulk. Thinking your clever ruse of plastering your face everywhere and building stone statues of yourself would conceal that it was You all along behind the invasion.

Hulk: HULK SMA-

*looks at Sally and Ben and clutches head as they continue*

HULK LEAVE! If puny reporters will be on Earth, Hulk no want Earth.

*gets back on the ship and goes back to Planet Hulk*

[Kevinroc]

Sally: The world isn’t about “conquering” anymore. It’s about the stock market, computers and the digital age. Barbaric warlords are obsolete.

Hulk: HULK SMASH!!

Ben: Don’t try and deny it, Mr. Hulk. We got the evidence to prove you’re the mastermind behind all these “HULK WILL RULE EARTH” campaigns.

HULK: HULK SMASH!!!

Sally: Did you even see the last episode of Lost? How can You rule the world?

Ben: You’re a true genius, Mr. Hulk. Thinking your clever ruse of plastering your face everywhere and building stone statues of yourself would conceal that it was You all along behind the invasion.

Hulk: HULK SMA-

*looks at Sally and Ben and clutches head as they continue*

HULK LEAVE! If puny reporters will be on Earth, Hulk no want Earth.

*gets back on the ship and goes back to Planet Hulk*

Well, there is no more Planet Hulk. So he's just gonna have to smash them.

(Some people might miss Ben but I don't think there will be a lot of tears shed for Sally.)

:p

[Den]

Normally I'm against Women in Refrigerator moments...

In Sally's case, I might make an exception.

[Omega Alpha]

Ridiculous last issue. The decadency of this series was huge, begun being great at #1 and now is terrible. Sally Field is the most idiotic character at Marvel ever since Thunderbird III. And, Jenkins, we get it, you like the Sentry, now stop having him appearing in every issue you write.


Normally I'm against Women in Refrigerator moments...

In Sally's case, I might make an exception.

QFT.

[mandog]

This is the worst comic series I've ever read. Sally is the worst written character of all time. Shame on Jenkins.

[XPac]

but I like my madness!
and I also like seeing how reporters look at issues when their world is filled with super-peoples.
I wanna Frontline monthly that's not a tie-in to nothin!

For me, Frontline made sense of the maddness.

Millar only showed what Cap and Tony did. He did a VERY poor job explaining WHY they were doing what they were doing.

Frontline did that. The last issue in particular.

This issue proved that the Frontlines are ESSENTIAL.

[XPac]

It's a shame there's no easy out for Cap's ridiculous interview.

What was wrong with the Cap interview? I thought Cap came off looking pretty descent.

He recognized his mistakes, apologized for them, and is willing to pay for them even though he's still standing by his ideals. That seems fair all around.

[bulbasteve]

What was wrong with the Cap interview? I thought Cap came off looking pretty descent.

He recognized his mistakes, apologized for them, and is willing to pay for them even though he's still standing by his ideals. That seems fair all around.

The ideals he talks about in this issue are of a right-wing wingnut who thinks the constiution and the 2nd amendment give you the right to violently fight the government. The ideals in pretty much everywhere else is someone who is justifiably worried about the role of SHIELD controlling supers.

[stillanerd]

^^^^
So I guess the founding fathers are right-wing nuts as well as Cap then, considering the Declaration of Independence:

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Then again, how exactly is Cap attempting to free American citizen being held without due process rights the same as an overthrow of the government?

Anyway, like I said over in this thread: "Why Civil War may be like DK2" (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=165117) the main series of Civil War was basically the surface gloss while Civil War:Frontline was what is REALLY going on. Which means, yes folks, that ending in Civil War #7 in which everything is all hunky dory, sunshine and rainbows even though everything has become a police state was meant to be ironic, and this issue of Frontline has pretty much proved it. Because seriously, how can anyone justify that Iron Man wasn't the quasi-villain of this event? Having Norman Osborn engineer a war with a soverign power just to convince people that SHRA and the Initative is justified (despite the fact that the public was already convinced thanks to Stamford) which resulted in several deaths as a result pretty much puts Tony well into Doctor Doom territory even moreso than his cloning Thor, hiring supervillains, and creating a gulag. Plus, this issue should be clear once and for all that Marvel never had any intention other than portraying the pro-regs other than "villains," because pro-reg=Bush and the neocons in Marvel speak.

And as for Sally Floyd, I think Jenkis has unitentionally revealed that, despite what the media may think about themselves, SHE is actually reflects what is far more common in journalism and for what passes as investigative journalism these days. And yes, I too believe that, contary to her (and maybe Jenkis') belief about the "real America," ideals such as justice, equality, and liberty ARE worth fighting for. (It would have been terrific--copyright issues notwithstanding--if Cap just told Sally off by paraphrasing a line from V for Vendetta: "Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, Ms. Floyd, and ideas are bulletproof.")

[PunisherFan]

This is the worst comic series I've ever read. Sally is the worst written character of all time. Shame on Jenkins.

Yeah I gotta second that one. Sally has to be the worse reporter out there too. Rather then interviewing Cap, which would probably be the interview of a lifetime, she yells at him about youtube, myspace and American Idol? WTF? It's good to know if I run out of toilet paper i still have civil war frontline #11 handy. MEMO TO SELF: Remove staples before whipeing

[XPac]

Yeah I gotta second that one. Sally has to be the worse reporter out there too. Rather then interviewing Cap, which would probably be the interview of a lifetime, she yells at him about youtube, myspace and American Idol? WTF? It's good to know if I run out of toilet paper i still have civil war frontline #11 handy. MEMO TO SELF: Remove staples before whipeing

Yeah... Sally was a horrible reporter. As a pro-regger, I'm glad she is no longer representing my viewpoint.

But as for the Frontline book itself... it wasn't a great story overall, but it was very important as far as getting the WHOLE story of the CW. I don't see how anyone can NOT consider it essential reading.

The main book simply showed what happened. Millar did a horrible job giving anything context... he never bothered really telling us why they were doing this. Frontline 11 did that. We got both their perspectives. It perfectly complimented CW7 and gave the story the necessary balance.

[stillanerd]

Yeah I gotta second that one. Sally has to be the worse reporter out there too. Rather then interviewing Cap, which would probably be the interview of a lifetime, she yells at him about youtube, myspace and American Idol? WTF? It's good to know if I run out of toilet paper i still have civil war frontline #11 handy. MEMO TO SELF: Remove staples before whipeing

The sad thing is Sally Floyd is a lot more representative of today's crop of investigative reporters and maybe Jenkis unintentionally revealed this with her character. Guess she was one of those types who thought journalism was more about "getting recognition" rather than just "reporting the truth." And geez, Spidey looks like even more of a tool in light of #1 if he considered her a fair reporter.

[XPac]

The sad thing is Sally Floyd is a lot more representative of today's crop of investigative reporters and maybe Jenkis unintentionally revealed this with her character. Guess she was one of those types who thought journalism was more about "getting heard" rather than just "reporting the truth."

Sally is WORSE than 99% of the crop of investigative reporters out there. And I am speaking from experience. Whatever their personal feelings, if they had 15 minutes with Captiain America I promise you they would use every minute and place that on the front page.

A BAD reportrer would turn a potentially good hard news piece into a fluff human interest story. But Sally just walked out of the room, and didn't bother doing the story at all. I don't know what Sally believes she does for a living, but she's obviously not being a reporter.

[IamtheRock3]

Yeah... Sally was a horrible reporter. As a pro-regger, I'm glad she is no longer representing my viewpoint.

But as for the Frontline book itself... it wasn't a great story overall, but it was very important as far as getting the WHOLE story of the CW. I don't see how anyone can NOT consider it essential reading.

The main book simply showed what happened. Millar did a horrible job giving anything context... he never bothered really telling us why they were doing this. Frontline 11 did that. We got both their perspectives. It perfectly complimented CW7 and gave the story the necessary balance.

thought you were anti reg

[garin]

But as for the Frontline book itself... it wasn't a great story overall, but it was very important as far as getting the WHOLE story of the CW. I don't see how anyone can NOT consider it essential reading.It had some extra things that we didn't see in the main book, but none of those events were significant enough to even be mentioned in any other book (please, correct me if I'm wrong on this.) It depends on what you take the "whole story of CW" to mean, I suppose.

The main book simply showed what happened. Millar did a horrible job giving anything context... he never bothered really telling us why they were doing this. Frontline 11 did that. We got both their perspectives. It perfectly complimented CW7 and gave the story the necessary balance.I couldn't disagree more with this. I never felt like I had a problem understanding the reasoning or motivations of the characters in the main book. Frontline tried to spell things out in an incredibly heavy-handed and (from my perspective) wrong-headed fashion.

Frontline was (again, to me) absolutely the worst aspect of the entire event, and did nothing but compromise the work that others were doing.

[IamtheRock3]

man surprise nobody did Parody of frontline

guess it be to easy

[XPac]

thought you were anti reg

My bad... I meant anti.

[stillanerd]

Sally is WORSE than 99% of the crop of investigative reporters out there. And I am speaking from experience. Whatever their personal feelings, if they had 15 minutes with Captiain America I promise you they would use every minute and place that on the front page.

A BAD reportrer would turn a potentially good hard news piece into a fluff human interest story. But Sally just walked out of the room, and didn't bother doing the story at all. I don't know what Sally believes she does for a living, but she's obviously not being a reporter.

Hey, I agree with you. If there was any justice, Sally would never have gotten as far as she did, much less pass journalism school. And walking out on a interview is certainly grounds for termination, and certainly NOT any way one wants to advance their career. However--and granted, I'm speaking as an outsider here--her mentality is not that far off the mark from what you would normally see on cable news channels, where most of the reporters either already have their minds made up, spin the story in a particular way, or don't hit hard enough because their mostly impressed by the "celebrity" or "famous" person they're interviewing. Hell Bells, Sally could go on to be Iron Man's press agent considering how she's perfectly okay with his "ends justifies the means" mentality.

[XPac]

It had some extra things that we didn't see in the main book, but none of those events were significant enough to even be mentioned in any other book (please, correct me if I'm wrong on this.) It depends on what you take the "whole story of CW" to mean, I suppose.

I couldn't disagree more with this. I never felt like I had a problem understanding the reasoning or motivations of the characters in the main book. Frontline tried to spell things out in an incredibly heavy-handed and (from my perspective) wrong-headed fashion.

Frontline was (again, to me) absolutely the worst aspect of the entire event, and did nothing but compromise the work that others were doing.

I think spelling things out is very important, especially for something like this.

Many people ASSUMED Tony was doing some shady things... but it was unclear and a lot of accusations that anti's threw against him were somewhat speculative until Frontline spelled it out. Tony's motives needed to be mapped out as clearly as they were. Not everyone would get this if Frontline didn't do that.

The end of CW7 makes Tony almost look like a saint... but that only tells one side of the story. And it's told from the perspective of a man trying to win his wife back (which almost gurantees bias).

Seeing the story from the perspective of 2 reporters that were digging into the facts tells a very different story. It's not quite as rosey and Reeds version. Millars story was incomplete... it needed Frontline to tell you the other perspecitves and angle that we were missing.

[stillanerd]

I think spelling things out is very important, especially for something like this.

Many people ASSUMED Tony was doing some shady things... but it was unclear and a lot of accusations that anti's threw against him were somewhat speculative until Frontline spelled it out. Tony's motives needed to be mapped out as clearly as they were. Not everyone would get this if Frontline didn't do that.

The end of CW7 makes Tony almost look like a saint... but that only tells one side of the story. And it's told from the perspective of a man trying to win his wife back (which almost gurantees bias).

Seeing the story from the perspective of 2 reporters that were digging into the facts tells a very different story. It's not quite as rosey and Reeds version. Millars story was incomplete... it needed Frontline to tell you the other perspecitves and angle that we were missing.

Hence why I consider Millar's ending to be more ironic satire and Jenkis' ending to be the explanation of the satire, if that makes any sense.

[XPac]

Hence why I consider Millar's ending to be more ironic satire and Jenkis' ending to be the explanation of the satire, if that makes any sense.

In even simpler terms, Millar's ending was "pillow talk" by Reed to get his wife back into bed with him.

[Capt Hunter]

Man... what the heck are they doing to Captain America? Cap has always been my favorite character... always... I have been reading Captain America since issue 342. It was right smack into "Cap Gets Fired" storyline. I have since collected every issue from 170 up. I have not missed a single issue since then.

Now thats out of the way. Captain America is not a terrorist. He did not intentionly attack innocent people in the name of terror. Thats the simple as it gets. Cap was fighting for the civil liberties of the heroes that save these stupid citizens every day. How many times has Cap lead the heroes into certain doom only to turn it around and win the day. Anyone remember "The Kang Dynasty" and "Onslaught".

I understand the true measure of a hero is when the chips are down and everything is against you, you rise up and win. Something huge is coming and Captain America is gonna save the day...

PS.. I hope Tony Stark meets his maker and Captain America sets up the meeting....

[stillanerd]

In even simpler terms, Millar's ending was "pillow talk" by Reed to get his wife back into bed with him.

That too. Not to mention it was also implied "pillow talk" by Stark to seduce Miriam Sharpe into going bed with him. :D

[Trey]

Normally I'm against Women in Refrigerator moments...

In Sally's case, I might make an exception.

QFeffinT

I'd like to see her talk to Thanos like that. She'd get the bitchslap.
Between her, Maria Hill and Iron Man, I've never hated anyone more. They're worse than Hitler! :mad: :mad: :mad: ;)

[XPac]

QFeffinT

I'd like to see her talk to Thanos like that. She'd get the bitchslap.
Between her, Maria Hill and Iron Man, I've never hated anyone more. They're worse than Hitler! :mad: :mad: :mad: ;)

Yeah... I just realized why it's so easy to be an ANTI. Because so many of the pro characers are just freaking annoying.

Sally (who in all fairness wasn't always a PRO I suppose) and freaking Miriam Sharpe make me are enough to make me root for Galactus the next time he decides he wants to eat the earth. If he's taking out those 2, then it can't be all that bad an idea.

[bulbasteve]

^^^^
So I guess the founding fathers are right-wing nuts as well as Cap then, considering the Declaration of Independence:

Dude, how many times have we been over this issue? Does EVERY topic need to quote the Declaration? We have done this issue literally TO DEATH.

Anyway, like I said over in this thread: "Why Civil War may be like DK2" (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=165117) the main series of Civil War was basically the surface gloss while Civil War:Frontline was what is REALLY going on. Which means, yes folks, that ending in Civil War #7 in which everything is all hunky dory, sunshine and rainbows even though everything has become a police state was meant to be ironic, and this issue of Frontline has pretty much proved it. Because seriously, how can anyone justify that Iron Man wasn't the quasi-villain of this event? Having Norman Osborn engineer a war with a soverign power just to convince people that SHRA and the Initative is justified (despite the fact that the public was already convinced thanks to Stamford) which resulted in several deaths as a result pretty much puts Tony well into Doctor Doom territory even moreso than his cloning Thor, hiring supervillains, and creating a gulag. Plus, this issue should be clear once and for all that Marvel never had any intention other than portraying the pro-regs other than "villains," because pro-reg=Bush and the neocons in Marvel speak.

Except Millar doesn't believe that, and he WROTE the dang thing. If he wanted to make it so you thought it was a police state, he would have DONE it. Frontline is so totally out of step with everything Millar wrote and every comment from JoeQ and Tom.

[garin]

Many people ASSUMED Tony was doing some shady things... but it was unclear and a lot of accusations that anti's threw against him were somewhat speculative until Frontline spelled it out. Tony's motives needed to be mapped out as clearly as they were. Not everyone would get this if Frontline didn't do that. A lot of people assumed Miriam Sharpe was Loki in disguise. That doesn't mean we needed a special wherein it was revealed as the truth.

Frontline was full of bad ideas, poorly executed. The self-contained nature of the book means it could have been skipped in its entirety, and the whole event would have been improved by its absence.

[XPac]

A lot of people assumed Miriam Sharpe was Loki in disguise. That doesn't mean we needed a special wherein it was revealed as the truth.

Frontline was full of bad ideas, poorly executed. The self-contained nature of the book means it could have been skipped in its entirety, and the whole event would have been improved by its absence.

In the case of Mirian Sharpe, it didn't need to be revealed as true because it WASN'T. In Starks case, it was true. So conveying that in a book was necessary.

And Frontline wasn't completely self-contained. In TBolts for example, it's essential reading if you wanna know what the heck turned Speedball into Penace or where Green Goblic came from.

As for whether or not the book would be improved in it's absence... again, to me it GREATLY improved the ending. It gave the story greater balance and context. As epilogues go, we needed more than just the bias perspective of a guy trying to get his wife back.

[Saotome]

I wonder were Jenkins wanted to go with this?

Does he want to give a reason to be invaded to go and invade other foreign countries and spread registration, as a a twist in comparison to spreading democracy.


Hulk will smash Tony( I hope.)

[Vaal]

A lot of people assumed Miriam Sharpe was Loki in disguise.
Less assumed, more prayed.

[XPac]

I wonder were Jenkins wanted to go with this?

Does he want to give a reason to be invaded to go and invade other foreign countries and spread registration, as a a twist in comparison to spreading democracy.


Hulk will smash Tony( I hope.)

I don't think Tony really wanted a war. He just wanted the treat of a war to bring the heroes together. It was a calculated gamble. And it paid off.

Still, it's a nice springboard for whatever Marvel is going to do with Namor as I believe hes getting his own book down the line. And it also gives a bit of extra satisfaction when Namor joins Caps side in the final battle.

[stillanerd]

Dude, how many times have we been over this issue? Does EVERY topic need to quote the Declaration? We have done this issue literally TO DEATH.

Myabe it's because it tends to get ignored?

Except Millar doesn't believe that, and he WROTE the dang thing. If he wanted to make it so you thought it was a police state, he would have DONE it. Frontline is so totally out of step with everything Millar wrote and every comment from JoeQ and Tom.

I know what Millar said that he personally believes that registration, in the real world, would be a good idea. Even so, if you've got a paramilitary espionage organization in charge of several superpowered individuals and having them patrol every state in the Union which apparently greater jurisdiction than even the FBI, it certainly sounds an awful lot like a police state. Plus, Mark Millar himself has said that every other writer who worked on the Civil War related crossover--which BTW you can't exactly divorce from the main series in certain circumstances--chose to write it by going AGAINST the idea of registration. Also, Civil War was not intirely Millar's idea; he may have wrote the main series, but the frame work was decided on by multiple writers. That would mean that the majority of writers and the bulk of Civil War overall basically said pro=bad, anti=good. And using Joe Q and Tom B's logic about the majority being in the right, well...

Besides, the cynic in me lets me think that, despite their statements saying Iron Man was right and Cap was wrong--and notice how, all of the sudden, any and all pretense about there being "no right or wrong side" and that this would be a "fair and balanced" treatment, the very comments they used to promote this series is no longer being used anymore?--Iron Man was purposefully set-up to look more like a quasi-villain so that when World War Hulk rolls around, fans would be eager to see the Hulk get his revenge and for Iron Man to realize that, in order to bring "peace" he crossed the line and became no better than the very villains he protected people against. Heck, with Iron Man crying at the end of Frontline #11, it's already happening.

[garin]

In the case of Mirian Sharpe, it didn't need to be revealed as true because it WASN'T. In Starks case, it was true. So conveying that in a book was necessary.The only difference between Loki Sharpe and Evil Tony is that one was confirmed in print, and one wasn't. If cooler heads had prevailed, they both would have been false, despite whatever fans may have assumed. Those who assumed Tony was involved in these crazy schemes could have been just as wrong as those who suspected Miriam Sharpe. These decisions are not out of the hands of those crafting the stories.

Marvel's publishing decisions define the state of their universe, not the other way around. I stand by my assertion that Frontline should not have happened. It was not only unnecessary, it was harmful.

And Frontline wasn't completely self-contained. In TBolts for example, it's essential reading if you wanna know what the heck turned Speedball into Penace or where Green Goblic came from. Fair point, I'll give you Penance, but to understand Osborne in Thunderbolts doesn't require Frontline. If anything, it confuses the issue.

Penance could have been dealt with in a one-shot special.

As for whether or not the book would be improved in it's absence... again, to me it GREATLY improved the ending. It gave the story greater balance and context. As epilogues go, we needed more than just the bias perspective of a guy trying to get his wife back.We are getting some more epilogue specials, like The Confession and Fallen Son. There'll be plenty of Civil War fallout for everyone, I think.

[bulbasteve]

I know what Millar said that he personally believes that registration, in the real world, would be a good idea. Even so, if you've got a paramilitary espionage organization in charge of several superpowered individuals and having them patrol every state in the Union which apparently greater jurisdiction than even the FBI, it certainly sounds an awful lot like a police state. Plus, Mark Millar himself has said that every other writer who worked on the Civil War related crossover--which BTW you can't exactly divorce from the main series in certain circumstances--chose to write it by going AGAINST the idea of registration. Also, Civil War was not intirely Millar's idea; he may have wrote the main series, but the frame work was decided on by multiple writers. That would mean that the majority of writers and the bulk of Civil War overall basically said pro=bad, anti=good. And using Joe Q and Tom B's logic about the majority being in the right, well...

Dude that is like saying when we went from the wild west to having a legal system that the American West became a police state. That is literally the analogy Millar and co have used time and time again.

But no, I think you CAN divorce the main series from the rest. He has also said he has nothing to do with what other people write and he writes in vacuum. If you want to get the meaning out of Civil War of course you go with Millar. If you want to say "the meaning of Jenkins' Civil War" than go ahead I would agree 100% with it. But you are lumping Millar in with everyone else.

Plus noone was saying the pro-regs were saints. As Millar said they both have blood on their hands. We have talked literally for months about clones and prisons, just because they aren't talking about it anymore doesn't mean it never happened. It is just they are now focusing on what Cap has done.

[XPac]

The only difference between Loki Sharpe and Evil Tony is that one was confirmed in print, and one wasn't. If cooler heads had prevailed, they both would have been false, despite whatever fans may have assumed. Those who assumed Tony was involved in these crazy schemes could have been just as wrong as those who suspected Miriam Sharpe. These decisions are not out of the hands of those crafting the stories.

Marvel's publishing decisions define the state of their universe, not the other way around. I stand by my assertion that Frontline should not have happened. It was not only unnecessary, it was harmful.

Fair point, I'll give you Penance, but to understand Osborne in Thunderbolts doesn't require Frontline. If anything, it confuses the issue.

Penance could have been dealt with in a one-shot special.

We are getting some more epilogue specials, like The Confession and Fallen Son. There'll be plenty of Civil War fallout for everyone, I think.


I don't think cooler heads (or lack thereof) had anything to do with anything. This was the story.

It wasn't a case of Tony being completely right and victoriously becoming director of SHIELD while Cap being completely wrong ended up rotting in a jail cell ... rather it was a story of 2 people that were both right and wrong.

[tavella]

It wasn't a case of Tony being completely right and victoriously becoming director of SHIELD while Cap being completely wrong ended up rotting in a jail cell ... rather it was a story of 2 people that were both right and wrong.

Well, no. From Marvel's perspective it *was* a story of Tony being completely right and victorious and Cap being completely wrong. In this new MU, Tony doing things like having Atlanteans murdered only makes him more of a hero, because he's doing the Hard Things That Must Be Done To Protect Us All. Cap's that silly person who protests that it's wrong to torture suspects and imprison people without trial, who if they got their way would mean the islamofasc... er, that the wideawake project would win.

I'm amused at the fact that despite the fact that Millar says he's being completely sincere and that none of his previous work demonstrates any subtlety, people _don't believe him_.

[garin]

I don't think cooler heads (or lack thereof) had anything to do with anything. This was the story.Yes, but the story wasn't handed down on tablets from the mountaintop. It was not inevitable that Tony would use the Green Goblin to blow up some Atlanteans. My position is simply that some poor storytelling decisions were made. The material in Frontline was among the most egregious, and the least important to the overall tapestry of the event, so it could have been cut.

It wasn't a case of Tony being completely right and victoriously becoming director of SHIELD while Cap being completely wrong ended up rotting in a jail cell ... rather it was a story of 2 people that were both right and wrong.So was Civil War itself. We've spent months arguing ad nauseum about how evil Tony is for trying to convince Peter to unmask, instituting the use of the Negative Zone prison, creating Clor, ambushing the Secret Avengers, and recruiting the Thunderbolts. He was plenty dirty already, and we didn't need Frontline to turn him into a maniac.

[XPac]

Yes, but the story wasn't handed down on tablets from the mountaintop. It was not inevitable that Tony would use the Green Goblin to blow up some Atlanteans. My position is simply that some poor storytelling decisions were made. The material in Frontline was among the most egregious, and the least important to the overall tapestry of the event, so it could have been cut.

So was Civil War itself. We've spent months arguing ad nauseum about how evil Tony is for trying to convince Peter to unmask, instituting the use of the Negative Zone prison, creating Clor, ambushing the Secret Avengers, and recruiting the Thunderbolts. He was plenty dirty already, and we didn't need Frontline to turn him into a maniac.

I think that's part of the reason why Frontline was important... it was to show that he WASN'T acting like a maniac. A bastard sure... but not a maniac.

It connected the dots and put everything in context. For every dirty thing Frontline revealed, there was a reason and even a benefit for it. He's manipulating things in horrible ways, but getting positive results like the increase in registered heroes and the additiona funds that are not being made available for civil servants, heroes and their families.

Could it have been cut? Sure... marvel say from day one that Civil War can be self contained. But they also said that Frontline was the most essential book to compliment the series, and Frontline 11 showed you why. Because it digs deeper than the main CW title does and shows you things you don't get in Millars book or anywhere else.

[garin]

We seem to have come full circle, and no closer to agreeing. Im glad you enjoyed Frontline. I wish I had.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

Well, I for one can't wait to read WWH: Front Line, and discover how Tony and Hulk actually conspired together to gather an alien army and attack Earth as a pretext for SHIELD to declare martial law.

[stillanerd]

Dude that is like saying when we went from the wild west to having a legal system that the American West became a police state. That is literally the analogy Millar and co have used time and time again.

The problem with that analogy is that, even in the Marvel Universe with all of its superbeings prior to the registration act was still a country governed by laws, unlike the wild west which not only didn't have superbeings, of course, but didn't have organized laws until settlements became big enough for there to have a legal system in place. Basically, what Stark's Initative is is essentially the equivalent of the President declaring martial law and having the National Guard essentially become a federal police force. (Actually, now that I think of it, the impression I get from Millar is that he believes the State can solve all society's ills, so maybe he does think police states are an ideal form of government.)

But no, I think you CAN divorce the main series from the rest.

That's the idea, except, at times, certain events in the main series are dependent upon what happened in the tie-ins (such as Civil War #5 came out of what happened in ASM #535. After all, if you just read Civil War only, Civil War #5 has Iron Man confronting Spider-Man, with IM standing in front of a giant hole in the wall. In order to figure out why there's a giant hole there, you had to have read ASM #535) what happened to certain characters (you would think Speedball was dead if you didn't read Frontline or that nobody went after Nitro or that he might have been dead unless you read Wolverine) and even to understand character motivations for why they were for or against registration (we got at least three different ones for Reed in Fantastic Four).

He has also said he has nothing to do with what other people write and he writes in vacuum.

Really? Then how do you explain Spider-Man's unmasking in issue #2? Millar admitted to CBR that THAT wasn't his idea but an editoral fiat from Joe Q. Was he "writing in a vaccum" then? Or how about Joss Whedon's contribution to the end of Civil War which changed the ending? Was Millar still writing in a vaccum? How about how Captain America, not Iron Man, was originally supposed to be the head of the pro-registration forces until it was decided that it should be the other way around?

If you want to get the meaning out of Civil War of course you go with Millar. If you want to say "the meaning of Jenkins' Civil War" than go ahead I would agree 100% with it. But you are lumping Millar in with everyone else.

Only because Civil War is not exclusively limited to one single comic book series but had several different tie-ins and contributions from other writers and editors, just like any crossover does. Also because, in an interview with Millar at Newsarama:

So I had all these ideas and notes and I sent my plot out to the hive-mind of writers and editors and everybody sent me notes back, really great notes and constructive criticism and I assembled this into a plot for our next meeting where everybody got a chance to tear it apart or add some absolutely brilliant comment or critique or idea to make it better.

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CivilWar/millar_final.html

After this, I went home and just kept writing and rewriting the thing until we basically had something everybody liked. It's become legendary how many drafts this thing went through because I just kept changing my mind every week and writing brand new issues, throwing out maybe fifty pages of original script in the first few issues and just honing it down until we had something everyone was pleased with.[/quote]

Plus noone was saying the pro-regs were saints. As Millar said they both have blood on their hands. We have talked literally for months about clones and prisons, just because they aren't talking about it anymore doesn't mean it never happened. It is just they are now focusing on what Cap has done.

Yes, but Millar also said, along with Joe Q, that Cap realized Iron Man "was right" citing things like how crime was down and how the majority of people supported registration, therefore implying that Iron Man was in the right and Cap was wrong and that's why Cap surrendered. And again, the whole promotion behind this series was that neither side was going to be right or wrong and that they were all heroes. Well, if they are saying a side was proven to be right, then I guess that whole notion was full of crap then. But even when Joe Q suggests this:

...what was very obvious about Civil War from the very beginning (and I did say it in so many interviews) is what we were showing was our government doing what it’s supposed to do. It was answering the will of the people, not the desires of a small powerful minority. It was the government acting responsibly. Tony Stark saw this as well, unfortunately, the person this was lost on was Cap.

Then this:

Well, there is no question a bit of prejudice [from the fans]comes into play, but that’s understandable. But also in order to provide a reveal that is both interesting and unexpected, you have to push fans along and yes, manipulate their feelings in order to do that.

We also get this:

But yes, I think in the end there was no white hat or black hat, just one big gray hat and in the end, that’s what the real world is like. It’s full of extremes on all fronts, but ultimately, at least here in the States, it’s about meeting in the middle and doing what’s most prudent at the time.

http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays36.html

So I guess, even after saying Tony's side was right because he had the people behind him, there's still no right or wrong side apparently.

[Kirayoshi]

Well, I for one can't wait to read WWH: Front Line, and discover how Tony and Hulk actually conspired together to gather an alien army and attack Earth as a pretext for SHIELD to declare martial law.
My prediction: Iron Man will lead the assault that ultimately defeats the Hulk, and use that victory as a springboard for a Presidential run('08 is next year, folks). This will lead to the inevitable Civil War II, where Tony's dirty dealings in CW will spring up faster than you can say "October Surprise".

I was disappointed in the whole thing, myself. I wasn't given the chance of being pro- or anti- anything, because both arguments were portrayed in the worst ways possible. I thought Civil War would be a clash of ideals as well as a physical clash. The result was about as illuminating as a political debate between Howard Stern and Ann Coulter! Who, I suspect, was the model for Sally.

Seriously, if I were a non-superhuman living in the MU and I knew everything that went down during CW from both sides, I wouldn't support superhuman registration. I'd support superhuman extermination!

As it is, I simply support the forced resignation of Joe Q. Which won't happen either. Oh well---

[jackolover]

Now that I've read FL #11, I can say it was the best issue of them all. Jenkins did it credit. For a prologue to the CW, it falls pretty close, because it tells stories of the main combatants, despite the bias of the reporters, Sally and Ben.

I felt the discussion Sally and Ben had with Steve Rogers in his cell, was as informative of Steves position as we could expect. (I don't know if Brubaker will continue this in Cap #25). But with all Sally's lecturing at Steve, I felt Steve still came through as being in control of the CW up until the last battle. Sally likes to waffle so much about how Steve isn't in touch, but she painted a dirty picture of modern life and it's values, that didn't need to be protected. That Steve wasn't interested in that side, I'm not surprised. I don't think Sally's view of America had any credence. Steve still had the moral high ground, no matter how belligerent Sally made how case.

The discussion of Sally and Ben with Tony was by far the most enlightening revelation about the war. (I honestly thought the traitor was Cap?). But traitor? I wouldn't put Tony in that catagory, so I don't know how the reporters came to that conclusion in the first place. Ben and Sally's compassion and respect for Tony's decision, was the most level-headed I've seen those 2. They appreciated Tony's scheme, to set up an impending Atlantian invasion, and use it for monetary (Services pensions, and heros) and political gain (getting Heros to register to fight the Atlantians). Then left Tony assured that they wouldn't expose the plan, in effect, backing his move.

I'm a bit disturbed that Steve and Tony don't look like meeting each other, now the hostilities are over. I hope they do.

[bulbasteve]

The problem with that analogy is that, even in the Marvel Universe with all of its superbeings prior to the registration act was still a country governed by laws, unlike the wild west which not only didn't have superbeings, of course, but didn't have organized laws until settlements became big enough for there to have a legal system in place. Basically, what Stark's Initative is is essentially the equivalent of the President declaring martial law and having the National Guard essentially become a federal police force. (Actually, now that I think of it, the impression I get from Millar is that he believes the State can solve all society's ills, so maybe he does think police states are an ideal form of government.)

Sure he thinks that the state can solve peoples problems, he IS a liberal afterall. But now you are saying that he it isn't some Bush police state but now a socialist one? Do you still think it is a satire or have you come around to him actually being honest for once.

Clearly it is the wild west, the whole anti-reg side is in flagrent violation of the law. You are arguing there is a system in place but it was one that was NEVER used by the anti-reg side. That is the whole point of the wild west argument. You cannot have people like The Punisher running around and say that the MU is not wild west...you just can't.

That's the idea, except, at times, certain events in the main series are dependent upon what happened in the tie-ins (such as Civil War #5 came out of what happened in ASM #535. After all, if you just read Civil War only, Civil War #5 has Iron Man confronting Spider-Man, with IM standing in front of a giant hole in the wall. In order to figure out why there's a giant hole there, you had to have read ASM #535) what happened to certain characters (you would think Speedball was dead if you didn't read Frontline or that nobody went after Nitro or that he might have been dead unless you read Wolverine) and even to understand character motivations for why they were for or against registration (we got at least three different ones for Reed in Fantastic Four).

CW5 was delayed. ASM is dependent on CW5 not the other way around. Heck they outright contradict each other. Look at the way the rubble is spread in the broken wall in CW5. It looks like Spidey was the one who threw Iron Man through a wall and then did it again. Spider-Man is closest to the wall with the rubble going towards him, unless they danced around and switched places, in CW5 it is clear spidey is the guy who was doing the throwing through walls. And Iron Man blatently contradicts himself in saying in ASM that the prison is perminent and in CW saying it is temporary. In such outright cases why the heck shouldn't we say the the main title is the one we should believe?

Nitro and Speedball just aren't that important in the long run, it's IM and Caps story, knowing what happened to them really doesn't matter in what CW was all about. Sure it's "important" for the MU at large but noting in terms of the story Millar was preseenting.

And none of these things really required any outside explination. Cap's was "we don't want them telling us who the villains are" IM's was "superheroes for the 21st century, moving beyond law enforcement" and "they would have banned us if we didn't do it". They both say these things in the main book, there really is no other explination needed, and hell I think it's sad that writers want to put in particularly complex explinations for what is supposed to be a basic philosophical argument about the role of superhumans in the world.


Really? Then how do you explain Spider-Man's unmasking in issue #2? Millar admitted to CBR that THAT wasn't his idea but an editoral fiat from Joe Q. Was he "writing in a vaccum" then? Or how about Joss Whedon's contribution to the end of Civil War which changed the ending? Was Millar still writing in a vaccum? How about how Captain America, not Iron Man, was originally supposed to be the head of the pro-registration forces until it was decided that it should be the other way around?

Did you read the CW1 directors cut? There was no Stamford, it was Happy Hogan getting accidently shot. In the outline for the scene in 7 posted on newsama the crowed just booed Cap and he stood down. Sure the general ideas were not done in a vacuum but the actual WRITING was.

But Heck, what I said was "He has also said he has nothing to do with what other people write", how you can get "he also said noone has anything to do with what he writes" out of that? I don't know if I was just unclear, but that is all I meant by it, nothing more.

Yes, but Millar also said, along with Joe Q, that Cap realized Iron Man "was right" citing things like how crime was down and how the majority of people supported registration, therefore implying that Iron Man was in the right and Cap was wrong and that's why Cap surrendered. And again, the whole promotion behind this series was that neither side was going to be right or wrong and that they were all heroes. Well, if they are saying a side was proven to be right, then I guess that whole notion was full of crap then. But even when Joe Q suggests this:

So in order for Cap to be right Iron Man has to be wrong? They have said, "they were both well intentioned" and "they both have blood on their hands". Iron Man was legally correct and had only the best intentions for the future of superheroes, and Cap was right to fear that the government would abuse superhumans. Both were wrong in terms of actions like Clor or using the Punisher. Heck that original draft says that his fears were stopped because Stark was put in charge, that pretty heavily implies that there was a GOOD reason not to trust Hill and them.

[Alpow]

I thought Jenkins actually did give a reasonable rationale for Stark doing what he did.

That's not to say it justifes it (as it was straight up wrong), but it made sense even if it was a gamble.


It was an unnecessary gamble because either way the war would have been settled in the show down between Cap and Ironmans forces, if Atlantis had attacked after Ironmans forces were defeated the US would have been wide open and only caps forces would have be able to stop it, Captain America and his band saving America whilst the government stands idle would have seriously injured the rationale behind the SHRA .

It was also an ill conceived one considering Namor was (at least to a degree) in collusion with Cap and the anti-reg forces, Namor is far more likely to vent his frustrations in concert with Cap and thus not give the anti-reg forces any reason to switch sides.

I don't find it particularly unlikely for Tony to do it on moral grounds (once you start cloning your friend and locking up people without trial I think you have already crossed the line) it just isn't a particularly good plan.

[stillanerd]

Sure he thinks that the state can solve peoples problems, he IS a liberal afterall. But now you are saying that he it isn't some Bush police state but now a socialist one? Do you still think it is a satire or have you come around to him actually being honest for once.

Well, I'm skeptical considering how much this event was promoted and how self-congradulatory folks at Marvel are being as a result. Considering how much Civil War was blatantly suggested by Marvel itself to be an alegory with regards to the post-911 world, how Stamford was supposed to be like the September 11th, SHRA like the Patriot Act, 42 like Gitmo, all sorts of parallels were being made, especially with the "9-11 crew" ganging up on Cap. Plus the concept of national security vs. civil liberties was really played up as well. So, when Millar, a critic of the Bush administrations policies--which I would assume includes his handling of the war on terrorism--writes an ending which portrays the public gladly willing to be policed by an army of supers (the very supers which they were initially afraid of because of what happened at Stamford and which registration was designed to keep them in check, which begs the question why they would suddenly be okay with them essentially running their lives?), one could read that as a commentary on who a "gullible public" is willing to toss away liberty in order to be safe, which is what Bush's critics accuse him of doing post 9-11. Yet, Millar is saying this is a good thing? Is he saying, as someone who is a liberal and disagrees with Bush's policies, that the accusation that America has given up its freedoms to feel safe is justified? If he's sincere, then the only reason why could be because a strong police state also reflects socialist ideals. However, what made me think the ending was a bit tounge in cheek was becasue Millar did start out as a satirst and, considering how the pro-regs have been overwhelmingly portrayed, it's pretty hard to congradulate them on a job well done.

Clearly it is the wild west, the whole anti-reg side is in flagrent violation of the law. You are arguing there is a system in place but it was one that was NEVER used by the anti-reg side. That is the whole point of the wild west argument. You cannot have people like The Punisher running around and say that the MU is not wild west...you just can't.

In real life, of course because it's common sense. But this is a comic book universe, where the concept of vigilantism being tolerated is part of the suspenion of disbelief, especially in light of all the other things that happen in comics. Also, it seemed everybody was okay was certain heroes like the Avengers and the Fantastic Four running around without being registered, even after cities got destroyed in countless battles time and time again. In some cases, the Avengers were actually "registered" with the UN prior to this. Others like Spider-Man, Punisher, The Hulk, and the X-Men were not and were hunted by the authorities. I guess what I'm saying is that with Registration and the Initative, while it's far more expansive system, it still mirrors the old "system." You know, the more things change the more they stay the same.

CW5 was delayed. ASM is dependent on CW5 not the other way around. Heck they outright contradict each other. Look at the way the rubble is spread in the broken wall in CW5. It looks like Spidey was the one who threw Iron Man through a wall and then did it again. Spider-Man is closest to the wall with the rubble going towards him, unless they danced around and switched places, in CW5 it is clear spidey is the guy who was doing the throwing through walls. And Iron Man blatently contradicts himself in saying in ASM that the prison is perminent and in CW saying it is temporary. In such outright cases why the heck shouldn't we say the the main title is the one we should believe?

I would agree, except that their fight hinges on the fact that Spidey is leaving, right? Well, why? Is it because of Bill Foster's death in #4? Well, even after that, Spidey starts having doubts but still sticks around. Yet in #5, he fully wants out and cites Bill Foster's death AND the Negative Zone prison. But wait? What Negative Zone prison? We haven't seen it yet? What's so bad about it that makes Spidey want to leave? Unless you read ASM #535--which explains WHY Spidey decides to leave AND sets up the fight that happens in Civil War #5, there's a problem. Not to mention numerous contradictions as you point out.

Nitro and Speedball just aren't that important in the long run, it's IM and Caps story, knowing what happened to them really doesn't matter in what CW was all about. Sure it's "important" for the MU at large but noting in terms of the story Millar was preseenting.

True. However, I would think that had the main Civil War series actually had Iron Man's bunch actually go after Nitro and apprehend him rather than having it all left to Wolverine and how virtually everyone else ignored him, it would actually show rather than tell why registered heroes would be a good thing. Plus, like I said, you would think that EVERYONE died at Stamford if you just read Civil War, but we see that this is not the case considering the tie-ins.

And none of these things really required any outside explination. Cap's was "we don't want them telling us who the villains are" IM's was "superheroes for the 21st century, moving beyond law enforcement" and "they would have banned us if we didn't do it". They both say these things in the main book, there really is no other explination needed, and hell I think it's sad that writers want to put in particularly complex explinations for what is supposed to be a basic philosophical argument about the role of superhumans in the world.

Except, besides superheroes kicking the crap out of each other, Civil War was promoted as having complex arguments for the role of superhumans with it's whole superheroes are analgous to guns or WMDs vs. minitorities and National Security vs. Civil Liberties. Remember all the complaints about how the pro-side saying "Registration was the law" and the anti-side's saying "Wearing masks are a tradition" were weak? That's because we really didn't get an adequate argument. Had something like what happened in the Cap/Iron Man Causalties of War took place earlier, only shorter, as part of the main series, and not a last minute filler, it would have gone a long way.

Did you read the CW1 directors cut? There was no Stamford, it was Happy Hogan getting accidently shot. In the outline for the scene in 7 posted on newsama the crowed just booed Cap and he stood down. Sure the general ideas were not done in a vacuum but the actual WRITING was.

But Heck, what I said was "He has also said he has nothing to do with what other people write", how you can get "he also said noone has anything to do with what he writes" out of that? I don't know if I was just unclear, but that is all I meant by it, nothing more.

Okay, the way you made it sound was that it was all his idea from the get go and that there was no exchange of ideas about the series at all when it sounds like what he did was write stuff down, then sent it to other writers and editors at Marvel who then give him feedback and suggest editorial changes. My mistake. Also, that interview makes it appear that Mark Millar really didn't have an ending until Whedon suggested it. My impression was that the crowd looking at Cap with fear was Whedon's idea but then that got changed to Cap being attacked by the 9-11 crew. Perhaps they could have stuck with the original ending. Or better yet, have it so that Cap, when he sees Tony's face behind that shattered helmet is the moment he realizes he's proving Tony right and THAT'S the moment he drops his shield, and walks away and turns himself in. Not the heavy-handedness we ended up getting.

So in order for Cap to be right Iron Man has to be wrong? They have said, "they were both well intentioned" and "they both have blood on their hands". Iron Man was legally correct and had only the best intentions for the future of superheroes, and Cap was right to fear that the government would abuse superhumans. Both were wrong in terms of actions like Clor or using the Punisher. Heck that original draft says that his fears were stopped because Stark was put in charge, that pretty heavily implies that there was a GOOD reason not to trust Hill and them.

Hey, I said quite awhile ago that the way Civil War was basically going to say that Iron Man was legally right but ethically wrong and Cap was legally wrong but ethically right. And there's a pretty good argument that just because something is legal doesn't make it right or ethical. Therefore, even though Iron Man's side "won the argument," ethically they lost moreso than Cap. Therefore, Cap was right, even though he lost, because he was ethically correct versus Iron Man who was only legally correct. Also, Hill and SHIELD, who enforced registration, added to the notion that the supporters of the act were on the wrong side.

[Adam C]

Ben and Sally's compassion and respect for Tony's decision, was the most level-headed I've seen those 2.

It's level-headed to back murdering people in order to create a threat of war that will allow you to drum up support for your domestic policy?

Frankly I'm trying to figure out what Jenkins is trying to accomplish here. If the point is to make things morally ambiguous, well the Civil War mini proper already took steps towards that, mostly by making the pro-registration side fairly villainous up until the last issue. But this is just beyond absurd. It's as though none of the core writers for the project could be bothered with any level of sublty at all. Instead they just beat the reader over the head with the most ham-handed villainy and then write it off because it's not convenient to overall direction the Marvel Universe is supposed to go in. Do the editors even read this kind of drivel before they approve it?

[IamtheRock3]

Right now I may rather want Hill in charge after Frontline

lets face iron man LOST IT

[Sandy Hausler]

Sally (who already proved herself to be a frightenly incompetent reporter) pretty much made her opinion of Cap clear the last time they talked. So this is just more of the same from her.

I'm curious to see if Ben and Sally end up reporting this story or not.

As usual I am in agreement with XPac. I can't believe Sally is supposed to be a reporter. She's definitely in the wrong line of work.

I suspect that the story will not be reported. I just wonder why Ben and Sally went to see Tony if they weren't planning on reporting on it. Just to show him that they know? Sheesh, Tony's SHIELD agents could off them and nobody would ever know. And nobody can say that Tony is incapable of such an action -- not anymore.

Sandy Hausler

[Sandy Hausler]

I want to point out though, that Cap doesn't think what he did was wrong. What he says is:
"I now realize while my intentions were correct and honorable, I could as easily have come to the table as Tony Stark or Reed Richards."

I seem to remember that Steve did come to the table and Tony ambushed him. Isn't that right?

Sandy Hausler

[Machinedude]

I have a question!

Law Enforcemnet personal have the respondiblity of making sure people are not hurt when catching criminals (of course). We've seen police and such back off from a high speed chase and other situations when they think there actions would make things worse. So my question is this:

Should Tony have backed off when all the heroes were dropped in the middle of New York City?

30 people died, which i suppose is very low considering the scope of the battle. Tony knew that the excaping heroes did not pose a threat to the civilians, did he really think he could recapture them all with no casualties? I'm certainly no expert on this and am curious how other people think!:rolleyes:

[solarstorm]

The way I look at it is that ASM got Civil War right. Tony compared himself to Lincoln and said he had to make some very difficult decisions to keep the hero community united.

He broke the system to build a superior one.
This new system is in place to increase the probability of safer heroes and install protections in every state. The old system had to be broken to create this.

He knew the human community was working to destroy the superhuman community. He had to rebuild faith in the heroes and reestablish connection.

He knew war would result. Conflict of all kinds.

What to do?
42-keep renegade heroes out of the war until they want to register, which will happen when he unifies the heroes against atlantis (or hulk).

Thunderbolts- Serving exclusively to create the atlantis situation-an excuse.

Clor-An expirement to scare the other side into surrender and bolster strength. An expirement in creating heroes also-important for the 50 state initiative.

Atlantian assassination attempt- the uniting moment. The gamble. I wonder how much influence Reed had on choosing Atlantis or if Tony was still upset over the fight with Namor at the illuminati meeting?

Hulk- same thing. if Tony is planningfor SHRA, keeping Hulk on Earth would help prove his side of the story. So why ditch him? Honestly? No super hero ever stays in banishment. Tony may have used his exile to create a possible uniting threat similar to the Atlantis gamble.

Tony took a hard path. He's lost friends and ignited war. He did bad things for a good reason. He saved America but screwed Atlantis. He preserved the Union (of heroes and humans) at the expense of his own moral highground. He's a hero for sure. He created a better America and derailed a horrible future.

Unfortunately, he had to play dirty to achieve those ends. He lost friends and looks a lot worse than he actually is. His hero dilemma is that he saved America and few people will ever know. To most of them, he just looks like a jerk who's out for war money.

[ShaggyB]

Tony took a hard path. He's lost friends and ignited war. He did bad things for a good reason. He saved America but screwed Atlantis. He preserved the Union (of heroes and humans) at the expense of his own moral highground. He's a hero for sure. He created a better America and derailed a horrible future.


let me highlight what i feel is the most BS thing i have ever read. He temperarly fixed a problem. in the Marvel Universe their are a few possible futures. None are too good looking but the one tony helped to create is the one we read in DAYS OF FUTURE PAST.

Dont be fooled, there were no heroes because they were whipped out. well you will say tony prevented the public from calling for this extermination. Well think about it, now the government has the location and secret identity of all the heroes (soon it will be all of them that arent considered rogue) Kinda makes it easy for mass extermination squads to find them. to steal from star wars when does order "66" happen.

So dont pretend that hes created a better future for america, he has created an easier path to a bad ending. he has given a temporary fix for a looming problem that in the end is much larger than he is capable of handle'n. Dont think of it as utopiah, think of it as temporary peace. The calm before the storm. Civil war was not much of a war, its like comparing world war 2 to the gulf war. nothing against the troops or anything but the scope was not the same. trouble is looming for the heroes and tony didnt help matters, he merely told / showed the people what they wanted to see, thats not a fix in any way, shape or form. thats bad polotics at its best

[superfriend]

I have a question!

Law Enforcemnet personal have the respondiblity of making sure people are not hurt when catching criminals (of course). We've seen police and such back off from a high speed chase and other situations when they think there actions would make things worse. So my question is this:

Should Tony have backed off when all the heroes were dropped in the middle of New York City?

30 people died, which i suppose is very low considering the scope of the battle. Tony knew that the excaping heroes did not pose a threat to the civilians, did he really think he could recapture them all with no casualties? I'm certainly no expert on this and am curious how other people think!:rolleyes:

Yes, Tony should've backed off. That's why Cap is the one hero in this scenario. Ironically, by backing down and ending the conflict, he made the choice that Tony should've made.

It's like the old Biblical story where 2 women bring a child before King Solomon and both claim that the child is theirs. Solomon cannot dissuade either party so he proposes they cut the child in half and give one half to each woman. One woman instantly acquiesces and Solomon judges her most capable of rearing the child.

Of course, Civil War didn't end that way but we see Cap's actions, with crystal clarity, as the more noble and heroic gesture.

[drwho]

I thought this was one of the better issues although the end where Tony freaks and falls on his knees seemed bizarre. A little too over dramatic if you ask me.

[NickThompson]

Then they pull this crap? TONY ARRANGED TO HAVE AN ATLANTEAN KILLED. To have MULTIPLE Atlanteans killed, and to START A WAR WITH A FOREIGN POWER. HOW DOES THIS NOT MAKE TONY A VILLAIN?!?!

Tony didn't arrange to start a war with a foreign power.

[NickThompson]

Yeah I gotta second that one. Sally has to be the worse reporter out there too. Rather then interviewing Cap, which would probably be the interview of a lifetime, she yells at him about youtube, myspace and American Idol? WTF? It's good to know if I run out of toilet paper i still have civil war frontline #11 handy. MEMO TO SELF: Remove staples before whipeing

That's why I like Sally, she's a terrible reporter.

[XPac]

It was an unnecessary gamble because either way the war would have been settled in the show down between Cap and Ironmans forces, if Atlantis had attacked after Ironmans forces were defeated the US would have been wide open and only caps forces would have be able to stop it, Captain America and his band saving America whilst the government stands idle would have seriously injured the rationale behind the SHRA .

It was also an ill conceived one considering Namor was (at least to a degree) in collusion with Cap and the anti-reg forces, Namor is far more likely to vent his frustrations in concert with Cap and thus not give the anti-reg forces any reason to switch sides.

I don't find it particularly unlikely for Tony to do it on moral grounds (once you start cloning your friend and locking up people without trial I think you have already crossed the line) it just isn't a particularly good plan.

Well, that's the thing... even if Iron Man's forces had lost (and technically they sort of did as far as the fight goes), Iron Man's forces would still be there.

What do you think Cap would have done if he had won the fight but hadn't surrendered? He wouldn't have killed anyone. He doesn't have a prision to put anyone in. He would have simply escaped, and Tonys forced despite being a bit roughed up would still be there. That's the thing to remember here... for Caps side winning a fight isn't a sollution, it's merely another day of freedom.

If there's an invasion, Iron Man and SHIELD would be there to stop it. But again, the gamble was that Namor would not invade. And that gamble paid off, as it scared a lot of people into registering and throwing more support for the registration.

If it is discovered that Tony was behind the Green Goblins attack (and it is an interesting question... does Namor know?) then yes it's possible that Namor would throw his support with Cap. But honestly, Namor probaby would do that anyways and Tony knows it. Namor made his feelings about the registration very clear in Illuiminati. Truthfully Tony would probably feel BETTER if Namor is working with Cap since Cap would make sure Namor doesn't get out of hand.

[Sparda]

Cap would'nt have gone underground to begin with if Maria Hill had'nt had been a bitch in forcing cap into leading a team to capture un-registered hero's and funny thing was that it happend before the the registeration became law. Far as I see it, it's her fault that cap went underground and civil war to begin with. All the damages that had happend should have come down on her shoulders and be held responsible.

Was'nt for her, Cap would have been neatral about this affair and just do what he does best in capturing villians with pay from government and would probably try to fight the law the legal way through court.

[Adam C]

Atlantian assassination attempt- the uniting moment. The gamble. I wonder how much influence Reed had on choosing Atlantis or if Tony was still upset over the fight with Namor at the illuminati meeting?

Except this was arguably the least necessary of the many bad things he did. The public already fully supported the registration of superheroes and it was never a deciding factor in the outcome of the battle between the pro-registration and anti-registration forces.

And keeping superheroes who violated registration locked in a prison isn't necessarily what's at issue with 42. What is at issue was that they were maltreated in the prison and basically denied their constitutional rights, which is what caused Spiderman to turn on Iron Man. Similarly, what did the assembly of the Thunderbolts have to do with the Atlantean situation? They were assembled because Goliath's death had damaged support for registration so they wanted to use supervillains to bring the heroes in. And they pumped their blood full of nanites designed to deliver electrical shocks to keep them in line.

[XPac]

Tony took a hard path. He's lost friends and ignited war. He did bad things for a good reason. He saved America but screwed Atlantis. He preserved the Union (of heroes and humans) at the expense of his own moral highground. He's a hero for sure. He created a better America and derailed a horrible future.



Or he derailed one possible horrible future for another.

Reed believed that projecti wide awake would occur if his sollution wasn't implemented... but Cable believed that the 50 States Initiative would bring about a totalitarian state.

Not that I believe Cable was right... because the heroes will stop it. Just as they would stop whatever evil Tony believes would have come. Because that's what the heroes do.

[MoriartyL]

but I like my madness!
and I also like seeing how reporters look at issues when their world is filled with super-peoples.
I wanna Frontline monthly that's not a tie-in to nothin!

Front Line wasn't bad because it was a tie-in, it was bad because Jenkins wrote it. This is just one of those excuses I mentioned earlier, and it only confuses the real issue. As long as we pretend Jenkins isn't to blame, and keep going into his stories expecting to get better than last time, we're going to keep getting disappointed.

But as for the Frontline book itself... it wasn't a great story overall, but it was very important as far as getting the WHOLE story of the CW. I don't see how anyone can NOT consider it essential reading.Then I'll explain it to you. Marvel left lots of holes for Jenkins to fill, yes. But the way Jenkins filled each of those holes was horrendous. So here are the two ways to look at Civil War: with Front Line, which completely messes up the characterization for key characters in the story and tacks on a bunch of mediocre plotlines, or without Front Line (ignoring that it exists), which is a fun story with lots of huge plot holes. In my opinion, the latter option is the lesser of two evils. But if Marvel hadn't had Front Line to fall back on, maybe they wouldn't have had so many plot holes to begin with.

So I think Civil War would have been much better if Jenkins had never been involved. But now that he has been involved, the best thing we can do is ignore his work completely. Disregard the fascism attributed to Tony Stark which taints his appearance in all the other books, ignore the Norman Osborn story which doesn't match up with Thunderbolts, forget about The Return and pay no attention to the one panel he's in in Civil War itself. Once all those terrible story elements are taken out, Civil War's a much more entertaining read.

Many people ASSUMED Tony was doing some shady things... but it was unclear and a lot of accusations that anti's threw against him were somewhat speculative until Frontline spelled it out. Tony's motives needed to be mapped out as clearly as they were. Not everyone would get this if Frontline didn't do that.

The only reason people ASSUMED Tony was doing some shady things was because Front Line kept claiming he was. I mean, it was Front Line that claimed that Tony Stark had made money off Civil War, and suggested: (I'm paraphrasing an actual line of dialogue) "What if this whole war were about money?" When Front Line makes wild accusations like that, it's hard to see the pro-reg side, even in the other books, as anything other than villains. But take out Front Line and all of Civil War is more fair. So no one would have assumed Tony did shady things.




Now, maybe you guys can explain something to me. The implication (if I understand it correctly) is that Tony Stark contributed to the creation of the new Thunderbolts team so that he could set up the threat of a war, yes? So let's pretend for a moment that I can believe him trying to do that. Even so, couldn't he have come up with a simpler way?! This guy's supposedly a genius with technology, and he couldn't set up some sort of automated weapon? The only way he could possibly think of was to create a whole team of supervillains, and secretly mess around with the nanites in one of their heads?! This doesn't make any sense to me.

I think when people here mentioned that Tony Stark was not directly behind the Thunderbolts, they were right. Stark's just taking advantage of something that was already in motion without him, so that he could use them as part of the army he needed. That's not really so unethical, and it would be slightly stupid of him to not take advantage of every weapon at his disposal. But Front Line makes him out to be in charge of the Thunderbolts, to such a degree that it emphasizes several times that only he and those close to him had access to their nanites. So Jenkins turns what made sense already into something that doesn't make sense, just by tying Iron Man in there more tightly. And then he "justifies" the damage with this nonsensical non-explanation.

You can see why I'd like to ignore Front Line's existence.

[The Xenos]

Between Millar and Jenkins, I have about decided that overly cynical British writers are the LAST people to try to educate others on what America and its dream is or is not.

You know. That's a very good point. Why is Marvel letting two UK wrtiers write Captain America in their massive mainstream news grabbing event? Mor importantly, this whole mini series is about what America is and about what captain America stands for... and it's two main series are being written by a British writer and a (crazy) Scottish writer.

I dunno. Heh. Hey, doon't we fight a war a little over 200 years ago when Americans figured we could determine our own identity. Now I don't mind British authors, but you have these two twits writing this rather dark take on America and Captain America in a major series. Something just isn't sitting right there.

Now I sure the hell ciritisize our government and our culture myself. Yet something seems off when you have these guys from outside the country writing this. I dunno. A series so profoundly set in American culture and ideals.. and it's written by people from Great Britain. Seems rather hypocritical. Nevermind the very neagtive picture it paints of America. Gee. I thought comic books superheros were supposed to inpsire hope. So much for that. All we get is a bunch of illegal resisiance fighters.

Hell, I'd be more inclined to read something like DMZ as it's written by a New Yorker.

Again that whole American Idol and MySpace speech was terrible. Was Jenkins hoping for us to want Cap to punch her in her traitorous face? Then add to that they promise Stark not to publish the dirt they got on him. Man. I thought Ulrich had a heart and a brain. Hopefully he will see a change of heart and get himself away from this idiot Sally.

Eh. Here's hoping Hulk comes back, people realize these government controlled heroes just don't have it in them, and Hulk smashes all the idiots like Sally. Also here's hoping Stark is exposed for the fraud he us.

Right now. He's fucking the Marvel U in the ass.

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/9092/copyofcivilwarwantedmaszp9.gif

[NickThompson]

You know. That's a very good point. Why is Marvel letting two UK wrtiers write Captain America in their massive mainstream news grabbing event? Mor importantly, this whole mini series is about what America is and about what captain America stands for... and it's two main series are being written by a British writer and a (crazy) Scottish writer.

I would give an opinion but I'm British, so you wont care :p



It is worth noting though that Jenkins has lived in the US for quite a while. 20 years I think?

[XPac]

Then I'll explain it to you. Marvel left lots of holes for Jenkins to fill, yes. But the way Jenkins filled each of those holes was horrendous. So here are the two ways to look at Civil War: with Front Line, which completely messes up the characterization for key characters in the story and tacks on a bunch of mediocre plotlines, or without Front Line (ignoring that it exists), which is a fun story with lots of huge plot holes. In my opinion, the latter option is the lesser of two evils. But if Marvel hadn't had Front Line to fall back on, maybe they wouldn't have had so many plot holes to begin with.

So I think Civil War would have been much better if Jenkins had never been involved. But now that he has been involved, the best thing we can do is ignore his work completely. Disregard the fascism attributed to Tony Stark which taints his appearance in all the other books, ignore the Norman Osborn story which doesn't match up with Thunderbolts, forget about The Return and pay no attention to the one panel he's in in Civil War itself. Once all those terrible story elements are taken out, Civil War's a much more entertaining read.



The only reason people ASSUMED Tony was doing some shady things was because Front Line kept claiming he was. I mean, it was Front Line that claimed that Tony Stark had made money off Civil War, and suggested: (I'm paraphrasing an actual line of dialogue) "What if this whole war were about money?" When Front Line makes wild accusations like that, it's hard to see the pro-reg side, even in the other books, as anything other than villains. But take out Front Line and all of Civil War is more fair. So no one would have assumed Tony did shady things.




Now, maybe you guys can explain something to me. The implication (if I understand it correctly) is that Tony Stark contributed to the creation of the new Thunderbolts team so that he could set up the threat of a war, yes? So let's pretend for a moment that I can believe him trying to do that. Even so, couldn't he have come up with a simpler way?! This guy's supposedly a genius with technology, and he couldn't set up some sort of automated weapon? The only way he could possibly think of was to create a whole team of supervillains, and secretly mess around with the nanites in one of their heads?! This doesn't make any sense to me.

I think when people here mentioned that Tony Stark was not directly behind the Thunderbolts, they were right. Stark's just taking advantage of something that was already in motion without him, so that he could use them as part of the army he needed. That's not really so unethical, and it would be slightly stupid of him to not take advantage of every weapon at his disposal. But Front Line makes him out to be in charge of the Thunderbolts, to such a degree that it emphasizes several times that only he and those close to him had access to their nanites. So Jenkins turns what made sense already into something that doesn't make sense, just by tying Iron Man in there more tightly. And then he "justifies" the damage with this nonsensical non-explanation.

You can see why I'd like to ignore Front Line's existence.

There were PLENTY of books which dont' conflict with a more shady version of Stark. Hudlin and JMS's books certainly painted Stark with a bit of a black hat as well. You can choose to ignore it if you want of course... but if it's published in continuity then to me it's just as real as anything else until Marvel tells me otherwise.

As for why people assumed that Tony was up to something shady... you had him cloning friends, building a negative zone prison, and implanting nano's into people. Plenty of things outside of Frontline were helping to form a darker picture of Stark... Frontline just tied it all together and gave it context. It made it flow into one overall arching plan.

The the reason it always looks like Stark is in charge of the TBolts is because he's always the one there. He was the one that told Zemo to build his army. He was the one that introduced them in the main CW book in issue 5. It's not just Frontline that made the connection between the TBolts and Stark... that was already firmly established across the board.

As for the reason Stark contributed to the new TBolts... in the Civil War tie'ins the emphasis was on hunting down other villians while the heroes were fighting each other. CW implied that once Cap got the advantage in numbers, he used the TBolts to expand his forces. The thing with Green Goblin starting a war with Atlantis was probably just a project on the side... it never seemed to be the primary reason Stark did this.

[JonBidinger]

Does anyone know who that hero was flying over Seattle, with the golden helmet and the Ankh?

[Camron Amaya]

Stupidest thing I have read in this whole crossover.

[bulbasteve]

Well, I'm skeptical considering how much this event was promoted and how self-congradulatory folks at Marvel are being as a result. Considering how much Civil War was blatantly suggested by Marvel itself to be an alegory with regards to the post-911 world, how Stamford was supposed to be like the September 11th, SHRA like the Patriot Act, 42 like Gitmo, all sorts of parallels were being made, especially with the "9-11 crew" ganging up on Cap. Plus the concept of national security vs. civil liberties was really played up as well. So, when Millar, a critic of the Bush administrations policies--which I would assume includes his handling of the war on terrorism--writes an ending which portrays the public gladly willing to be policed by an army of supers (the very supers which they were initially afraid of because of what happened at Stamford and which registration was designed to keep them in check, which begs the question why they would suddenly be okay with them essentially running their lives?), one could read that as a commentary on who a "gullible public" is willing to toss away liberty in order to be safe, which is what Bush's critics accuse him of doing post 9-11. Yet, Millar is saying this is a good thing? Is he saying, as someone who is a liberal and disagrees with Bush's policies, that the accusation that America has given up its freedoms to feel safe is justified? If he's sincere, then the only reason why could be because a strong police state also reflects socialist ideals. However, what made me think the ending was a bit tounge in cheek was becasue Millar did start out as a satirst and, considering how the pro-regs have been overwhelmingly portrayed, it's pretty hard to congradulate them on a job well done.

I mentioned in your other topic. But I think the obvious fact that Miriam Sharpe is a clear cut MU version of Cindy Sheehan really put a giant wrench into any idea that this is a satire. She is the only new character introduced and the lynchpin of the whole event. She is not an example of the "gullible public" obviously. She is not crying in a corner because the U.S. is now a police state. This is the Bush administration where Bush LISTENED to people and worked to change the world. To say it is a satire ignores arguably one of the most important characters in it.

In real life, of course because it's common sense. But this is a comic book universe, where the concept of vigilantism being tolerated is part of the suspenion of disbelief, especially in light of all the other things that happen in comics. Also, it seemed everybody was okay was certain heroes like the Avengers and the Fantastic Four running around without being registered, even after cities got destroyed in countless battles time and time again. In some cases, the Avengers were actually "registered" with the UN prior to this. Others like Spider-Man, Punisher, The Hulk, and the X-Men were not and were hunted by the authorities. I guess what I'm saying is that with Registration and the Initative, while it's far more expansive system, it still mirrors the old "system." You know, the more things change the more they stay the same.

Yeah it does, so then why are you saying this is a police state? The avengers were fascists before? This is the Avengers Initiative afterall, my god he said he got the idea from his brothers CHARITY. At the end of the day I'm sure spidey and some other heroes will have the same "thanks for saving us... the bosses tell us to take you in but we won't" stories as they have always had. So then why argue against registration?

I would agree, except that their fight hinges on the fact that Spidey is leaving, right? Well, why? Is it because of Bill Foster's death in #4? Well, even after that, Spidey starts having doubts but still sticks around. Yet in #5, he fully wants out and cites Bill Foster's death AND the Negative Zone prison. But wait? What Negative Zone prison? We haven't seen it yet? What's so bad about it that makes Spidey want to leave? Unless you read ASM #535--which explains WHY Spidey decides to leave AND sets up the fight that happens in Civil War #5, there's a problem. Not to mention numerous contradictions as you point out.

It's more about Bill as shown in his doubts about being on the right side in 4. He never says in CW5 that the negative zone prison is somehow inhumane or anything. It is pretty darn clear why Millar wanted him to leave, just because JMS wanted to add a lot of lame exposition to it doesn't change how Millar wrote it.

True. However, I would think that had the main Civil War series actually had Iron Man's bunch actually go after Nitro and apprehend him rather than having it all left to Wolverine and how virtually everyone else ignored him, it would actually show rather than tell why registered heroes would be a good thing. Plus, like I said, you would think that EVERYONE died at Stamford if you just read Civil War, but we see that this is not the case considering the tie-ins.

But it doesn't matter if Speedball or Nitro died in a book simply about the ideological argument about the SHRA. To use the 9/11 analogy, catching Bin Ladin or not has nothing to do with the patriot act.

Except, besides superheroes kicking the crap out of each other, Civil War was promoted as having complex arguments for the role of superhumans with it's whole superheroes are analgous to guns or WMDs vs. minitorities and National Security vs. Civil Liberties. Remember all the complaints about how the pro-side saying "Registration was the law" and the anti-side's saying "Wearing masks are a tradition" were weak? That's because we really didn't get an adequate argument. Had something like what happened in the Cap/Iron Man Causalties of War took place earlier, only shorter, as part of the main series, and not a last minute filler, it would have gone a long way.

They were weak arguments, but that was Falcon...he's no Cap. The fact is I can't think of anyone who DIDN'T think of most of the stuff said in Casualties of War just by reading the books. How many times did we say that the other option was that heroes would be outlawed on this forum months and months before casualties? This stuff is obvious, Millar didn't need to write it to hammer out the point.

Hey, I said quite awhile ago that the way Civil War was basically going to say that Iron Man was legally right but ethically wrong and Cap was legally wrong but ethically right. And there's a pretty good argument that just because something is legal doesn't make it right or ethical. Therefore, even though Iron Man's side "won the argument," ethically they lost moreso than Cap. Therefore, Cap was right, even though he lost, because he was ethically correct versus Iron Man who was only legally correct. Also, Hill and SHIELD, who enforced registration, added to the notion that the supporters of the act were on the wrong side.

The Punisher is ethical? And people complain that pro-regs are evil! :p

[cheshire42]

I'm sure it's some obscure Marvel hero, but the first thing I thought was...

Seattle + Bird Motif = The Sea-Hawk.

Maybe his secret lair is under Qwest Field... :rolleyes:

...

c42

[XPac]

I'm sure it's some obscure Marvel hero, but the first thing I thought was...

Seattle + Bird Motif = The Sea-Hawk.

Maybe his secret lair is under Qwest Field... :rolleyes:

...

c42

Truthfully, marvel will probably have to do stuff like that.

They're inventing superheroes for every freaking state. That's a LOT of superheroes, and there are only so many innovative names and concepts they will be able to come up with in a relatively short amount of time.

I'm already fairly unimpressed with a lot of the new hero concepts we've seen so far. Champions? Another Hercules? Blah. Rangers are cool though, but that's a team using existing heroes so that works.

[shaunyc56]

I thought it showed Tony as making the best choices possible. He saved America from the growing cowboyism going on in the streets, which I have always loved, but honestly, if you lived in Marvel U midtown, you'd most likely have been killed at some point.

He set up a huge prison that even if villians escape from it, they can't go anywhere.

And now heroes have pensions, just ask D-man if thats a good idea.

Now he did some sneaky, underhanded, dirty dealing, and possibly dangerous to america things to bring it all about, but he's an american businessman, very in character. Now he's really running sheild into the ground, but I dig that, it makes Nick Fury look better.

Oh, and he actually almost started a War w/ Atlantis and Wakanda, destruction of an embassy is like launching at missle at a nations capitol (anything any of their clones do is the responsibility of Stark and Richards)

[NickThompson]

Truthfully, marvel will probably have to do stuff like that.

They're inventing superheroes for every freaking state. That's a LOT of superheroes, and there are only so many innovative names and concepts they will be able to come up with in a relatively short amount of time.

I'm already fairly unimpressed with a lot of the new hero concepts we've seen so far. Champions? Another Hercules? Blah. Rangers are cool though, but that's a team using existing heroes so that works.

They probably wont be doing all 50 teams until they're needed. IIRC Slott said at NYCC that he wouldn't do them all so that characters don't get needlessly stuck.

[cheshire42]

I did a little digging around, and discovered the identity of this hero -

He's called Skyhawk. He's a member of a team called Earth Force. Guess they gave Thor a headache for an issue or three back in the day.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Skyhawk

Hm. Skyhawk... Seahawk... pretty dang close!

Marvel has hundreds (if not thousands) of characters, more than enough to populate 50 superteams.

I wonder if Rhode Island's superteam will be based in Quahog? :D

[DoctorDoom]

The ending almost confused me, but I suppose it made sense if you considered everything Tony's done.

[solarstorm]

The Thunderbolts were more or less reformed for the sake of creating the opportunity for a nano controlled supervillain to provoke war.

One could argue that they could have done this with anybody or just Osborn, but then there is no mystery. Iron Man wanted to have the blame put on a "traitor" to distance himself from the situation. Everyone aside from dimwit Sally and poor abused (by Jenkin's writing) Ben., were clueless to the "traitor's" identity.

It's harder to place the blame when there's 10 nano villains and one goes nuts than it would be if Osborn popped up out of nowhere filled with nanos and shooting Atlanteans.

[DoctorDoom]

Truthfully, marvel will probably have to do stuff like that.

They're inventing superheroes for every freaking state. That's a LOT of superheroes, and there are only so many innovative names and concepts they will be able to come up with in a relatively short amount of time.

I'm already fairly unimpressed with a lot of the new hero concepts we've seen so far. Champions? Another Hercules? Blah. Rangers are cool though, but that's a team using existing heroes so that works.
EH they can do it without running out.

[Omega Alpha]

They're inventing superheroes for every freaking state. That's a LOT of superheroes, .

And they're doing it shortly after they depowered most of the mutants because there were too few of them. Sure, Joe Q, convince me now that House of M has nothing to do with you hating Morrison:rolleyes:

[Den]

I would give an opinion but I'm British, so you wont care :p
I would, and that's why I put in the qualifier "overly cynical" , though to be fair, an Overly Cynical American writer wouldn't be any better I suppose. Still, to broadbrush everything about a country in black and gray, is just as unrealistic as to claim all is sunshine and rainbows. Where are the protests in favor of the superheroes? Where are the debates among the American public as a whole in the MU? Nonexistant for the most part it seems. If this is meant to be any sort of allegory for the recent years in the United States it is a lousy one.

If a Marvel writer of American birth were put in charge of a limited series based in France, and portrayed every person there as some sort of coward who surrendered at the drop of a hat, I'd snub my nose at such narrow minded bigotry. I find the way the American Public has been portrayed (stupid at best, hateful and evil at worst) in the Civil War series to be equally insulting.. and equally wrong.

[Magneto Rocks]

Actually found that quite amusing; Black Panther, a KING, and his queen can strike a Sentinel with lightning, fight Iron Man on the whitehouse lawn then join a giant illegal resistance for the soul purpose of fighting a US law, then go off and fight said law, providing not only aid but directly battling in hand to hand combat with enforcers of the law...

....but when their embassy is recklessly destroyed it could be considered an act of war!

[XPac]

Actually found that quite amusing; Black Panther, a KING, and his queen can strike a Sentinel with lightning, fight Iron Man on the whitehouse lawn then join a giant illegal resistance for the soul purpose of fighting a US law, then go off and fight said law, providing not only aid but directly battling in hand to hand combat with enforcers of the law...

....but when their embassy is recklessly destroyed it could be considered an act of war!

There's no doubt that the attack on the Atlantian embassy COULD be considered an act or war... thankfully Tony correctly gambled that it wouln't be.

It's certainly fair to argue that Panther's (and Namors actions in CW7 for that matter) could be interpreted as an act of war as well.

But the US is already in a Silent War with the Inhumans, in addition to the Civil War it was already fighting. Similiar to Tony gambling that Namor wouldn't commit to an actual war, I'll wager Panther and Namor did the same. Though in Panthers case, his first act wasn't political at all... he was merely running to help someone he thought was in danger.

[Soundrave]

I did a little digging around, and discovered the identity of this hero -

He's called Skyhawk. He's a member of a team called Earth Force. Guess they gave Thor a headache for an issue or three back in the day.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Skyhawk

Hm. Skyhawk... Seahawk... pretty dang close!

Marvel has hundreds (if not thousands) of characters, more than enough to populate 50 superteams.

I wonder if Rhode Island's superteam will be based in Quahog? :D


Hey, great catch!! I know I saw that character somewhere before, but i couldn't put my finger on it. I was thinking it reminded me of an Elseworlds Hawkman or something until you mentioned Skyhawk!

[XPac]

Hey, great catch!! I know I saw that character somewhere before, but i couldn't put my finger on it. I was thinking it reminded me of an Elseworlds Hawkman or something until you mentioned Skyhawk!

I don't know why, but for some reason that Skyhawk guy reminds me of some hanna barbara character or something.

Anyways, it is cool that the Initiative is bringing out some old characters like this. To me that's way more preferable to making a whole bunch of new heroes (though the new guys make great potential "red shirts" in the future).

[IMJ]

Now he's really running sheild into the ground, but I dig that, it makes Nick Fury look better.

Dude, what are you talking about? LOL.... you must be quoting the fact that Stark closed down the Shield officers club that DDD was complaining about in the new IM iss. But relax about that; it's not like he closed your favorite strip club or something, big spender.

:eek:

Anyways, it is cool that the Initiative is bringing out some old characters like this. To me that's way more preferable to making a whole bunch of new heroes (though the new guys make great potential "red shirts" in the future).

I'm curious as to what they are doing with War Machine now, and how they'll talk about the return of the WM armor....

[jackolover]

It's level-headed to back murdering people in order to create a threat of war that will allow you to drum up support for your domestic policy?

Frankly I'm trying to figure out what Jenkins is trying to accomplish here. If the point is to make things morally ambiguous, well the Civil War mini proper already took steps towards that, mostly by making the pro-registration side fairly villainous up until the last issue. But this is just beyond absurd. It's as though none of the core writers for the project could be bothered with any level of sublty at all. Instead they just beat the reader over the head with the most ham-handed villainy and then write it off because it's not convenient to overall direction the Marvel Universe is supposed to go in. Do the editors even read this kind of drivel before they approve it?

I see Jenkins Frontline not as morally ambiguous, as more placing the reporters inside a war. Wars are ugly, so they're bound to take on abhorrant aspects, and I don't blame the writers and editors for making it look that way. I accept the ugliness, and look beyond it, to see the intention of the combatants and the people observing that.

Calling war absurd is okay too, but I wasn't beat around the head by anyone. And calling what Tony and Steve did villiany, isn't what I observed at all. If you were put in the same position, I bet you'd negotiate yourself into the most opportune position too, to get your side to win, and don't tell me you wouldnt, because you'd lose in a minute. To say you wouldn't use devious means to accomplish your objective is the height of naivity.

Cap and Iron Man were in a life and death situation, according to them. Both their worlds were crumbling and they had to do what they thought was best to maintain that world. If it meant stretching the bounds of morality, in the face of dirty tricks by the oppostion, then so be it. I think the creators did a fair job portraying that situation, but it was not beating us over the head with moral ambiguity. I think you must be thinking in the pre-CW world, where moral ethics and heroism were what the creators were portraying. This was Civil War, with blood on their hands. What did you expect? That Cap and Iron Man apply the rules of engagement they would with Kang the Conquerer? These 2 men felt betrayed by the other. Just like when 2 brothers have a falling out, there was not going to be any sentimentality, because their eyes would have been clouded with rage.

[XPac]

Dude, what are you talking about? LOL.... you must be quoting the fact that Stark closed down the Shield officers club that DDD was complaining about in the new IM iss. But relax about that; it's not like he closed your favorite strip club or something, big spender.

:eek:

I think the fact that Stark is running SHIELD like a business pretty funny... the suggestion box in particular was a cute touch. I'm waiting for start to implement "ugly tie" Tuesdays.

So far the bottom line is showing that it's a clear improvement... though I'll wger soon enough we'll find out that running SHIELD like a business probably won't work. And I'm dying to see Fury's reaction to what Stark is doing.

[Syzygy]

Pretty much my thought. But don't blame Ben. It was all Sally. Ben, in fact says: "I thought we were supposed to be interviewing Captain America. Not yelling at him."

Much of what Sally says to Cap sounds like the Pro-Reg fans' criticisms.
"Sir, the people are going to ask, "why not sooner?" If you recognize this now, why couldn't you just have recognize it earlier and saved us millions in property damage?"

I want to point out though, that Cap doesn't think what he did was wrong. What he says is:
"I now realize while my intentions were correct and honorable, I could as easily have come to the table as Tony Stark or Reed Richards."

As i said already, Cap didn't think Tony was right and he didn't give up his ideals. He simply decided the method with which he was going about defending those ideals was wrong.

I would have greatly appreciated less of sally yelling, and more of Cap being interviewed. I wanted to hear what Cap had to say...or rather, would have said, had a proper, in-depth interview been conducted.

I imagine passes into Prison #42 are pretty rare, and that Cap consenting to a personal interview (at a time like this) is even rarer. Sally wasted both.

Or was it the writer who wasted the opportunity here?

Peace,
Syzygy

[XPac]

I would have greatly appreciated less of sally yelling, and more of Cap being interviewed. I wanted to hear what Cap had to say...or rather, would have said, had a proper, in-depth interview been conducted.

I imagine passes into Prison #42 are pretty rare, and that Cap consenting to a personal interview (at a time like this) is even rarer. Sally wasted both.

Or was it the writer who wasted the opportunity here?

Peace,
Syzygy

THe writer gave Cap a bit of time for Cap to convey his side, then used the opportunity to highlight the criticism against Cap that he might be out of touch. I agree it wasn't done very well though, as it really just made Sally look like a complete idiot. Why Ben allows her to tag along, I don't know.

But the thing is this... there will Civil War confessions, in addition to the fact that he's got an on-going series. So Cap will have more than ample opportunity to get his view across. We as comicbook readers are good to go... it's the average MU citizen in storyline terms that are screwed because of Sally's complete lack of professionalism.

[Alpow]

Well, that's the thing... even if Iron Man's forces had lost (and technically they sort of did as far as the fight goes), Iron Man's forces would still be there.

What do you think Cap would have done if he had won the fight but hadn't surrendered? He wouldn't have killed anyone. He doesn't have a prision to put anyone in. He would have simply escaped, and Tonys forced despite being a bit roughed up would still be there. That's the thing to remember here... for Caps side winning a fight isn't a sollution, it's merely another day of freedom.

I think a fair number of them would have been in hospital and it seems that super humans died in the battle anyway.

If there's an invasion, Iron Man and SHIELD would be there to stop it. But again, the gamble was that Namor would not invade. And that gamble paid off, as it scared a lot of people into registering and throwing more support for the registration.

Was that the gamble?

It would seem to me that you need the war to get people to unify in it's face, claims that it was affecting people without a war are hollow since they are predicated upon the idea that once organised resistance ceased that people wouldn't sign up out of having no other option.

If it is discovered that Tony was behind the Green Goblins attack (and it is an interesting question... does Namor know?) then yes it's possible that Namor would throw his support with Cap. But honestly, Namor probaby would do that anyways and Tony knows it. Namor made his feelings about the registration very clear in Illuiminati. Truthfully Tony would probably feel BETTER if Namor is working with Cap since Cap would make sure Namor doesn't get out of hand.

But Namor not getting out of hand means he is no longer a credible unifying threat.
He can't have it both ways.

I see real downsides to his plan and no real upside except for the nebulous idea that it may have had some unknown unifying effect, for which to work he would have to have beaten Cap in any case in which case he would have had much better ways to enforce cooperation from the anti-reg folks.

At the end o0f the day you don't start another war whilst already in a civil war, Lincoln said it during his "one war at a time", if he had followed Tony's logic Britain would have crushed the Union and the CSA would have been permanent.

[ManSpider]

Nah, why does some nagging feeling tells me that within the mist of World War Hulk: Frontline, is that Ben and Sally's little story comes to light along with the truth of why the Hulk is at war with earth.

Then the public and superhero's trust in Tony will either be shattered and/or questioned. :D

oh y did i not realise this. WWH frontline is gonna be about them 2 again. thank god i realised that b4 i paid my hard earned

[XPac]

oh y did i not realise this. WWH frontline is gonna be about them 2 again. thank god i realised that b4 i paid my hard earned

I had the reverse reaction. I'm looking forward to this.

If Sally starts talking to Hulk the way she talks to Captain America, then I'm totally there. I'll be camping out overnight in front of my local comicbook store to get my hands on that issue.

[NickThompson]

I think Tony ended up being the terrorist. He masterminded a bombing on american soil to instill fear in the masses for further his political agenda. That's the EXACT definition of a terrorist.

Didn't he mastermind the bombing of a terrorist cell? Thus, the definition of counter terrorist :)

[ManSpider]

I had the reverse reaction. I'm looking forward to this.

If Sally starts talking to Hulk the way she talks to Captain America, then I'm totally there. I'll be camping out overnight in front of my local comicbook store to get my hands on that issue.

ahhh, i get ya. then its hulk smash time

[Pyro]

This issue was absolutely terrible. I rarely criticize books and I really loved Civil War, but this series has been progressively worse from the start. Most of all, I hated the way Sally talked to Captain America. She's such an idiot. I don't know why Jenkins has been writing so much bad stuff lately. I loved his original Sentry mini. But all his recent work has been terribly disappointing (this, The Return, Generation M, Sentry v2). I thought it was funny when someone earlier said Jenkins is trying to defame Cap and Iron Man so that he can make Sentry into a leading player. Is Jenkins becoming a hack? Is that a fair question?... I think it is.

I'm going to pretend this series doesn't exist because it really sours my otherwise pleasant Civil War experience.

[XPac]

This issue was absolutely terrible. I rarely criticize books and I really loved Civil War, but this series has been progressively worse from the start. Most of all, I hated the way Sally talked to Captain America. She's such an idiot. I don't know why Jenkins has been writing so much bad stuff lately. I loved his original Sentry mini. But all his recent work has been terribly disappointing (this, The Return, Generation M, Sentry v2). I thought it was funny when someone earlier said Jenkins is trying to defame Cap and Iron Man so that he can make Sentry into a leading player. Is Jenkins becoming a hack? Is that a fair question?... I think it is.

I don't think Cap was being defamed at all... I actually think he looked better here than in Millars version.

Granted you had Sally ragging on him a bit, but the only one that looked bad there was Sally.

[MAK15]

I don't think Cap was being defamed at all... I actually think he looked better here than in Millars version.

Granted you had Sally ragging on him a bit, but the only one that looked bad there was Sally.

Sally: "Cap! You're evil, yes?"
Cap: "Ma'am, I dont think you're being fair here..."
Sally: "GRAAAA! I WILL EAT YOUR BABIES!!!!"

is pretty much the entire board's opinion of Sally's interview with Cap

[Pendaran]

I don't think Cap was being defamed at all... I actually think he looked better here than in Millars version.


Cap having 47 or so deaths at his feet is an amusing way to say he looks better.

[XPac]

Cap having 47 or so deaths at his feet is an amusing way to say he looks better.


Wellm,, maybe it's just me but my view of Cap honestly didn't worsen upon hearing about those casualties. I think the situation ended up looking worse, but not Cap specifically.He wasn't directly responsible for the fight spilling into NY, but he was directly responsible for ending it. Though I can understand why blame can be attributed to him since he was the one in charge.

But I just think the way Cap was handled in Frontline came off better. He admitted his mistake, apologized to his country and even to Tony, and unlike basically EVERYONE else he's willing to pay for his actions. For a lot of Civil War at least under Millars pen he came off somewhat off balance... like he was really losing it at times. Here he just came off a bit more Cap-like for lack of a better word.

I guess I'm just not a big fan of Millars Cap (though I do like Millar as a writer in general). He seems a bit too much like Ultimate Cap for my tastes.

[Pendaran]

Wellm,, maybe it's just me but my view of Cap honestly didn't worsen upon hearing about those casualties. I think the situation ended up looking worse, but not Cap specifically.He wasn't directly responsible for the fight spilling into NY, but he was directly responsible for ending it. Though I can understand why blame can be attributed to him since he was the one in charge.

But I just think the way Cap was handled in Frontline came off better. He admitted his mistake, apologized to his country and even to Tony, and unlike basically EVERYONE else he's willing to pay for his actions. For a lot of Civil War at least under Millars pen he came off somewhat off balance... like he was really losing it at times. Here he just came off a bit more Cap-like for lack of a better word.

I guess I'm just not a big fan of Millars Cap (though I do like Millar as a writer in general). He seems a bit too much like Ultimate Cap for my tastes.

He was directly responsible for his plan involving Namor and an Atlantean army to arrive and attack despite where the fight had moved to. Saying "I can understand why the blame is attributed to him" isn't really acknowledging that. The fight carried over into a populated area. Even Iron Man tried to give commands to start evacuating civilians. Cap? No such thing. Frontline has him sharing in blame for a whole lot of dead innocent people. There's no real way around that.

So I'm inclined to think that since Civil War 7 just showed a bunch of property damage, Frontline went ahead and made him look far worse. Especially for Cap not even having bothered to have gone "start evacuating civilians".

And really, if in the light of that and admitting that he did wrong, the result is a large and lavish cell that looks like it has all the amenities of an apartment, that doesn't seem to overly compensate for a whole bunch of dead bystanders. How much is Cap especially paying right now?

[Adam C]

And calling what Tony and Steve did villiany, isn't what I observed at all.

I never said what "Tony and Steve did" was villainous. I said that what Tony Stark and the pro-registration side was villlainous. At worst Steve was ignoring civilian casualties as a result of the fight until people grabbed him. And what happened? He backed down realising the harm he had done and turned himself in. Other than that he was willing to do a deal with the devil by taking in the Punisher, but gave him the boot the moment he stepped out of line. Stark continually engaged in ethically abhorrent throughout the course of the event and it gets swept under the carpet at the end. And while war is ugly it is generally recognized that prisoners should be humanely treated and people shouldn't be murdered for crass political ends.

Cap and Iron Man were in a life and death situation, according to them.

That's a really dubious assertion to make in light of the actual events. Moreso with the Atlantean thing since Stark was having people murdered to potentially cause a war in order to drum up support for a policy that already had widespread support among the American public. And judging from the events of the Civil War mini proper, the Atlantean policy had no effect on the outcome of the civil war among the superheroes. What possible reason did he have to do this? What justifiable reason was there to abuse the heroes locked in the 42 prison and deny them their constitutional rights when they were already charged with an actual crime?

Of course in terms of the story itself...

I think you must be thinking in the pre-CW world, where moral ethics and heroism were what the creators were portraying.

Actually I am trying to figure out what Joe Quesada and Mark Millar were thinking claiming that the series would show that the pro-registration was in the right while writing its leaders as bunch of supervillains. The ending and the actual events of the series and Frontline genuinely make no sense. Tony becomes all nice at the end while behaving like Doctor Doom throughout the series and the readers are just supposed to accept that? Unless Quesada, Millar, et. al. are really just taking a piss the intentions of the creators and the actual results are simply baffling in the extreme.

[Saotome]

Stark was having people murdered to potentially cause a war in order to drum up support for a policy that already had widespread support among the American public.

I was wondering about that myself. I wonder if Stark actually thought Cap was going to rally enough support with his victory, so Stark probably took no chances as to why he did what he did. Doesn't mean it was right of course.

Now I know why Namor and his army aided Cap. Not because anti-reg had asked him, since they had Sue try that and Namor was not interested IIRC. But considering what Stark did to Namors diplomats it makes sense now why he was there.

And that attack from Namor and his people aided Stark get more registered heroes.

[Pendaran]

Not anti-reg had asked him, since they had Sue try that and Namor was not interested IIRC.

According to Marvel, Namor was in fact there because Cap asked him.

Sayeth Tom Brevoort:

NRAMA: Again, for those perhaps not catching all the side stories - why did Namor join with cap's side? Last time we saw him in #6, he was pretty down on the idea...at the very least not implying that he’d be coming in with an army…

TB: Cap asked him, simple as that. He may have been petulant about it, he may have hemmed and hawed and claimed that he wasn’t going to do it, but at the end of the day, Captain America has been Namor’s friend and ally since World War Two. Everything Namor tells Sue in #6 is essentially true, but nevertheless, when Cap calls for help, Namor comes.

[bulbasteve]

Other than that he was willing to do a deal with the devil by taking in the Punisher, but gave him the boot the moment he stepped out of line. Stark continually engaged in ethically abhorrent throughout the course of the event and it gets swept under the carpet at the end. And while war is ugly it is generally recognized that prisoners should be humanely treated and people shouldn't be murdered for crass political ends.

Punisher stepping out of line cost two people their lives. Did they ever mention Cap paying for a funeral? How would anyone know Punisher killed them while they were in Caps secret base? Heck no book has even cared to mention the fact while people are still harping on Goliath, it seems both in the MU and for a lot of the authors that was swept under the rug.

But I would hardly say they were only only murdered for crass political purposes. For god's sake they were in the middle of planning a terrorist attack when it happened!

[XPac]

And really, if in the light of that and admitting that he did wrong, the result is a large and lavish cell that looks like it has all the amenities of an apartment, that doesn't seem to overly compensate for a whole bunch of dead bystanders. How much is Cap especially paying right now?


Well, he surrendered himself to custody. With that in addition to publically apologizing I'm not sure what else he can do. He can't bring anyone back to life... all he can do is submit himself to due process and allow the courts to punish him in whatever manner they see fit. And again, he's the only one that was willing to do that.

What else should Cap be doing?

[Pendaran]

If you feel he's admitted to his culpability in something like 47 counts of manslaughter/negligent homicide.. apologize to individual families? Ask to be treated like any normal human being that would say they are culpable in such a thing, instead of given rather fancy and pleasant digs?

[REAU]

Villains of Civil War

-Damage Control
-Nitro
-Tony Stark

Heroes of Civil War

-Wolverine
-Wolverine
-Wolverine

and if he new what Tony did he would chop his fuckin head off

Its so hard to believe that Wolverine was the only superhero that went after the BADGUY in this story.

[Gordon Smith]

I haven't followed Civil War very closely, so many of the details are somewhat murky to me. Am I correct in assuming that Captain America was assisted by Atlantean forces in this mess because he asked Namor to help him? Isn't that the equivalent of asking a foreign nation (one that's attacked your country several times in the past to boot!) to intervene with armed force in a domestic political crisis? That doesn't seem very defensible to me.

[Pendaran]

I haven't followed Civil War very closely, so many of the details are somewhat murky to me. Am I correct in assuming that Captain America was assisted by Atlantean forces in this mess because he asked Namor to help him? Isn't that the equivalent of asking a foreign nation (one that's attacked your country several times in the past to boot!) to intervene with armed force in a domestic political crisis? That doesn't seem very defensible to me.

According to Marvel, yes, Cap asked Namor for help, Namor showing up with his people was part of Cap's strategy, apparently, and they showed up because he asked. They were reinforcements or something.

[XPac]

If you feel he's admitted to his culpability in something like 47 counts of manslaughter/negligent homicide.. apologize to individual families? Ask to be treated like any normal human being that would say they are culpable in such a thing, instead of given rather fancy and pleasant digs?

I think you're kind of harping on things that are realistically outside of his control. I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that Cap was willing to accept whatever quarters they provided him.

As for the apology... I suppose it's fair to assume that he didn't bother apologizing for the individual families since we didn't actually see it. But I personally think since he apologized to his country and tone, it's something he would have done if he hasn't done it already. But hey, that's just speculaiton on my part. But I'm not going to think less of him because it wasn't shown. But if you want to, feel free.

[Pendaran]

I think you're kind of harping on things that are realistically outside of his control. I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that Cap was willing to accept whatever quarters they provided him.


Frontline presents pretty blatantly that Cap is given a pretty posh cell. I don't see him complaining about it, there's even a snarky comment made about it.

As for the apology... I suppose it's fair to assume that he didn't bother apologizing for the individual families since we didn't actually see it. But I personally think since he apologized to his country and tone, it's something he would have done if he hasn't done it already. But hey, that's just speculaiton on my part. But I'm not going to think less of him because it wasn't shown. But if you want to, feel free.

Considering Marvel has made no reference to it, nor has it been shown in comic, I'll continue to go by that instead of my own speculations, sure.

None of which really change what Cap is flat out culpable in, and that Frontline makes even more glaring the contrast from CW 7 that even people like Tony bothered to try and evacuate civilians, and we got nothing like that from Cap. And as long as there was no actual death toll, that's not so bad. But then, we got a death toll.

So I'll continue to go with that Frontline made Cap look a lot worse than Millar did, for all that people complain about Millar's writing.

I think you're kind of harping on things that are realistically outside of his control.

How is saying "I want a cell like a normal person" outside of his control? He can still say that, unless he's been fitted with a Thunderbolts style nanocollar preventing him, which so far, he's not.

I'll hope Brubaker shows Cap in a cell frankly to give us back a Steve that would at least say not to give him special treatment, but that would be an example of how Frontline takes characters and shows them to be worse than they are in other comics, where they're shown generally not as bad as in Frontline. Including Captain America.

[XPac]

Villains of Civil War

-Damage Control
-Nitro
-Tony Stark

Heroes of Civil War

-Wolverine
-Wolverine
-Wolverine

and if he new what Tony did he would chop his fuckin head off

Its so hard to believe that Wolverine was the only superhero that went after the BADGUY in this story.

I know. You would think the remaining at least New Warriors would have been all over Nitro like a cheap suit for what he did to their buds.

Granted that would have been REALLY bad PR since New Warriors going after Nitro was what got them in this mess in the first place.

Logan definately came off looking reasonable good in Civil War. He's got no regrets on his end... that's something 99% of the hero community can't really claim.

Still, it is interesting that he ended up on the New Avengers rather than the Mighty Avengers since Stark hired him. Maybe he does know about Tony, or at least suspects it.

[XPac]

Considering Marvel has made no reference to it, nor has it been shown in comic, I'll continue to go by that instead of my own speculations, sure.



Well, marvel has not shown or made reference to Cap going to the bathroom either, but I'm just assuming.

[Pendaran]

Well, marvel has not shown or made reference to Cap going to the bathroom either, but I'm just assuming.

Apologizing to people for getting their kin all corpsed up is a bit beyond that to just assume it happens, I'd think, or to say that one is especially the equivalent of the other. As far as disingenuous comparisons.

[The Xenos]

I would give an opinion but I'm British, so you wont care :p



It is worth noting though that Jenkins has lived in the US for quite a while. 20 years I think?

Well. I didn't know that. Eh. He still wrote a horrible Captain America or representation of what America should be. Bah. MySpace, Nascar, and American Idol. I think fans are going to be making fun of that for some time. Between this and EmoBall Jenkins should take a break from Marvel.

Frontline went from being good to downright terrible and neigh unreadable real fast.

[stillanerd]

I mentioned in your other topic. But I think the obvious fact that Miriam Sharpe is a clear cut MU version of Cindy Sheehan really put a giant wrench into any idea that this is a satire. She is the only new character introduced and the lynchpin of the whole event. She is not an example of the "gullible public" obviously. She is not crying in a corner because the U.S. is now a police state. This is the Bush administration where Bush LISTENED to people and worked to change the world. To say it is a satire ignores arguably one of the most important characters in it.

Miriam Sharpe is not an example of the "gullible public" because she represented Cindy Sheehan? Think again. One could easily argue that, like Cindy Sheehan, she allowed herself and her own personal tragedy to be used and manipulated by folks for their own agenda. Sharpe, throughout this whole ordeal, due to the death of her son is purely guided by her emotions and Stark totally takes advantage of that, IMO. Granted, she is a greiving mother who has lost her son, and she does spur Tony to act (her rebuke of him in issue #1 and her support in issue #4 spur him on) but in issue #6 and #7 he's basically sugar-coating things and she's totally falling for it because her need to have restitution for her son has essentially blinded her to what that actually would mean.

Yeah it does, so then why are you saying this is a police state? The avengers were fascists before? This is the Avengers Initiative afterall, my god he said he got the idea from his brothers CHARITY. At the end of the day I'm sure spidey and some other heroes will have the same "thanks for saving us... the bosses tell us to take you in but we won't" stories as they have always had. So then why argue against registration?

What I am saying is that prior to Civil War, you already had some heroes who were trusted by the public--some who already even worked for the government, like Cap--and those who were not because they were vigilantes. All Civil War did and the Initative accomplished was essentially elevate and enhance things to it's most logical conclusion. Personally, I think the idea of having superheroes being assigned to patrol certain states and/or cities is an interesting one, but I'm even though I like the concept as a comic book premise, it still smacks of a police state, which is "a totalitarian state or country in which a national police force, esp. a secret police, suppresses any act that conflicts with government policy." Sounds pretty darn close to what Tony's 50-state Initative is, especially since you have what amounts to as a military organization usurping power from civilain and federal law enforcement agencies.

It's more about Bill as shown in his doubts about being on the right side in 4. He never says in CW5 that the negative zone prison is somehow inhumane or anything. It is pretty darn clear why Millar wanted him to leave, just because JMS wanted to add a lot of lame exposition to it doesn't change how Millar wrote it.

He mentions BOTH, and there is where the problem lies. If Spidey simply left SOLELY because of Bill Foster's death, then why didn't he leave in issue #4? Why was he just milling it over? What was the transition between the time he had doubts to where he was fully convinced he was on the wrong side? Unless you read ASM #535, Spidey comes across as though he was, for lack of a better term, bipolar. Also did Millar SHOW why Spidey wanted to leave or did he just TELL why Spidey wanted to leave. Crappy as JMS' tie-in was, at least he SHOWED why Spidey wanted to leave.

But it doesn't matter if Speedball or Nitro died in a book simply about the ideological argument about the SHRA. To use the 9/11 analogy, catching Bin Ladin or not has nothing to do with the patriot act.

But an ideological argument is made stronger if you demonstrate it by example. We are TOLD not SHOWN why registration is beneficial and effective. We are TOLD not SHOWN that it reduces crime. If the pro registration side led by Iron Man actually hunted down and captured Nitro within the pages of Civil War, it really would have BOOSTED their case. You could have had a news report with Iron Man and his bunch capturing Nitro successfully in an organized efficient manner, followed by a brief news recap, and people saying, "You know, I was kind of on the fence about this whole registration thing. But if it can allow for crazies like that Nitro guy to be rounded up that fast, then hell, I'm all for it."

They were weak arguments, but that was Falcon...he's no Cap. The fact is I can't think of anyone who DIDN'T think of most of the stuff said in Casualties of War just by reading the books. How many times did we say that the other option was that heroes would be outlawed on this forum months and months before casualties? This stuff is obvious, Millar didn't need to write it to hammer out the point.

Yet, it was because of those weak arguments esposed in the main series that got the same people on these message boards making better arguments for and against registration wonder what the hell was Cap's and Iron Man's motivation for their positions. We got hints of it, yes, but in the beginning, Cap and Iron Man never actually debated this prior to SHRA being passed, which made it harder for readers to see why they took the positions they choose. It wasn't until Casualties of War--which wasn't supposed to have happened if the Civil War issues came out on time BTW--which finally gave them character motivation, except Civil War was well under way by that point. Had Millar had a similar scene between them, then it would have allowed for better characterization IMO.

The Punisher is ethical? And people complain that pro-regs are evil! :p

Well, while his sense of ethics are questionable, he's definately a straw man in this case. :p One of the issues Civil War brought up was the debate between following the law, in this case Iron Man and having folks register, and following a principle, in this case Cap and civil liberty and justice. While laws may be founded on the idea of personal liberty, not all laws are just and some have been known to deny a persons liberty. That is why it can be argued that even though Iron Man is following the law, the law itself may not be ethical or just, and while Cap is disobeying the law, the law he is disobeying may not be ethical or just. Does this mean that folks should break any and all laws any time they want? Of course not. Freedom is not the same as licence. However, if a law restricts any persons equality and liberty, then the law should be opposed (essentially that's what Thoreau's Civil Disobedience boils down to). Cap, I will agree took the wrong approach in fighting againt an unjust law and in doing so, ironically, gave Iron Man's argument legitamacy. But that doesn't necessarily mean he was wrong in opposing what is essentially a law that restricts a person's freedom, even if it is just a person with superpowers. And as for accountability, the question is not so much should heroes be accountable (Cap, in prior comics before this one has always advocated that) but rather who is one supposed to be accountable to? If it's to yourself, then you can invite anarchy. But if it's to the state, what if the state is in the wrong?

[Dr.J.]

Must agree with you on that mattter. Jenkens blew it,big time!! What a waste of what,33 bucks for these 11 issues of C.W.F.L.? Time was, Nick fury was the no.#1 basterd at marvel,but Stark has FAR surpassed the worst fury would pull,back in the 70's and 80's.The old stark,didn't follow the phillosophy,that the ends justify the means.

[jackolover]

I never said what "Tony and Steve did" was villainous. I said that what Tony Stark and the pro-registration side was villlainous. At worst Steve was ignoring civilian casualties as a result of the fight until people grabbed him. And what happened? He backed down realising the harm he had done and turned himself in. Other than that he was willing to do a deal with the devil by taking in the Punisher, but gave him the boot the moment he stepped out of line. Stark continually engaged in ethically abhorrent throughout the course of the event and it gets swept under the carpet at the end. And while war is ugly it is generally recognized that prisoners should be humanely treated and people shouldn't be murdered for crass political ends..

I still think you are one-sided on the villiany thing. A lot of posters think Steve has been behaving like Ultimate Cap, and, lambasting Steves actions as unlawfull. I think both are behaving with equal amounts of non-heroism. I'd keep that in mind. Whether Tony's non-heroism is worse than Steves is subjective, but I wouldn't be painting Tony too black. Both Steve and Tony made poor decisions.



That's a really dubious assertion to make in light of the actual events. Moreso with the Atlantean thing since Stark was having people murdered to potentially cause a war in order to drum up support for a policy that already had widespread support among the American public. And judging from the events of the Civil War mini proper, the Atlantean policy had no effect on the outcome of the civil war among the superheroes. What possible reason did he have to do this? What justifiable reason was there to abuse the heroes locked in the 42 prison and deny them their constitutional rights when they were already charged with an actual crime?.

Well, dubious or not, that's how I see the struggle between Tony and Steve, by the time the 2 sides were drawn. It's my perspective. I thought they both thought, if the other won, their world would be lost forever. You can disagree.


Of course in terms of the story itself...



Actually I am trying to figure out what Joe Quesada and Mark Millar were thinking claiming that the series would show that the pro-registration was in the right while writing its leaders as bunch of supervillains. The ending and the actual events of the series and Frontline genuinely make no sense. Tony becomes all nice at the end while behaving like Doctor Doom throughout the series and the readers are just supposed to accept that? Unless Quesada, Millar, et. al. are really just taking a piss the intentions of the creators and the actual results are simply baffling in the extreme.

'Bunch of supervillians'? People under pressure can behave in a very bizzare manner. Tarring them, as supervillians, is an interesting concept, but I tend to disagree, because both Steve and Tony weren't actually trying to pull off a heist, if you look at what they did in the most simplest of forms. But comparing their motives to Dr Doom is not a bad comparison, because Steve and Tony's intentions were good, but their execution was suspect. Doom does try to do things that are right, according to his values, and moral stance. Execution is his main problem, too.

It's quite a dilema, the 'Bunch of Villians' argument. Trust would be one factor, in that the population would trust both Tony and Steve to do the right thing, but they wouldn't trust Doom. And that's where I get stuck. We have been brought up on the heroism of both Tony and Steve, and can't get passed the fact they are the good guys, and this clouds our estimation of them. So we overlook the poor decisions they made in CW, and still look at them as heros, if not tainted.

[bulbasteve]

Granted, she is a greiving mother who has lost her son, and she does spur Tony to act (her rebuke of him in issue #1 and her support in issue #4 spur him on) but in issue #6 and #7 he's basically sugar-coating things and she's totally falling for it because her need to have restitution for her son has essentially blinded her to what that actually would mean.

She mentions the crazies on the Thunderbolts, that is hardly sugercoating anything. But can you follow your own fine idea of show not tell. Find me one example Millar either showing OR telling that she is somehow blinded by her loss. You are creating this out of thin air. I mean, hey why don't I just say that all these Firefighters that tackled Cap were all neo-nazis? They don't like Cap hence...obviously Nazi's! Who cares if Millar never gave you any indication at all that that is the case! :D

it still smacks of a police state, which is "a totalitarian state or country in which a national police force, esp. a secret police, suppresses any act that conflicts with government policy." Sounds pretty darn close to what Tony's 50-state Initative is, especially since you have what amounts to as a military organization usurping power from civilain and federal law enforcement agencies.

CW6 cites local authorization and oversight. So it is hardly a police state. If Colorodo wants to be total morons and have the Thunderbolts, well they decided it, it wasn't forced on them. We don't even know to what extent SHIELD runs any group and how much the U.S. Government or state and local authorities do. But let's look at what we have evidence for, look at the Two Gun Kid, he became a NYS bounty hunter, nothing about the national government or SHIELD, all SHIELD is involed with him is knowing his identity. Following the evidence and some simple logic instead of just your own personal beliefs is alot better to figure out what is actually taking place.

Also did Millar SHOW why Spidey wanted to leave or did he just TELL why Spidey wanted to leave. Crappy as JMS' tie-in was, at least he SHOWED why Spidey wanted to leave.

But it SHOWED things in direct opposition to what Millar wrote.

But an ideological argument is made stronger if you demonstrate it by example. We are TOLD not SHOWN why registration is beneficial and effective. We are TOLD not SHOWN that it reduces crime. If the pro registration side led by Iron Man actually hunted down and captured Nitro within the pages of Civil War, it really would have BOOSTED their case. You could have had a news report with Iron Man and his bunch capturing Nitro successfully in an organized efficient manner, followed by a brief news recap, and people saying, "You know, I was kind of on the fence about this whole registration thing. But if it can allow for crazies like that Nitro guy to be rounded up that fast, then hell, I'm all for it."

CW2. Pro-Regs take out giant Doombot, crowed cheers them. They mention that for the first time in a long time people are actually happy about their heroes again. SHOWN not TOLD. And how the heck do you show a reduction in crime? The fact that IM is just standing around complaining that there is less crime IS being shown that. That is the ONLY way you can show something NOT happening...by it not happening!

Yet, it was because of those weak arguments esposed in the main series that got the same people on these message boards making better arguments for and against registration wonder what the hell was Cap's and Iron Man's motivation for their positions. We got hints of it, yes, but in the beginning, Cap and Iron Man never actually debated this prior to SHRA being passed, which made it harder for readers to see why they took the positions they choose. It wasn't until Casualties of War--which wasn't supposed to have happened if the Civil War issues came out on time BTW--which finally gave them character motivation, except Civil War was well under way by that point. Had Millar had a similar scene between them, then it would have allowed for better characterization IMO.

But there was nothing new in it. Everyone here understood what their sides were without having to be told. It's an ideological argument, we don't need their life stories to figure out why they chose their side.

Well, while his sense of ethics are questionable, he's definately a straw man in this case. :p

Cap or The Punisher? :p

[stillanerd]

She mentions the crazies on the Thunderbolts, that is hardly sugercoating anything. But can you follow your own fine idea of show not tell. Find me one example Millar either showing OR telling that she is somehow blinded by her loss. You are creating this out of thin air. I mean, hey why don't I just say that all these Firefighters that tackled Cap were all neo-nazis? They don't like Cap hence...obviously Nazi's! Who cares if Millar never gave you any indication at all that that is the case! :D

Sharpe does mentions the Thunderbolts and Stark replies--who is the one doing the sugarcoating here, not her--by telling her that even they have a chance for redemption and she just lets it go (Course he doesn't mention the fact that he's using nanocites to control them). As for being blinded by her loss? How about the very first issue of Civil War where she literally spits in Iron Man's face and blames him for the death of her son. Obviously, she is in grief and looking for someone to blame, essentially letting her emotions override reason in that despite the fact that he had nothing to do with what happened at Stamford (at least Civil War Frontline didn't go that far).

CW6 cites local authorization and oversight. So it is hardly a police state. If Colorodo wants to be total morons and have the Thunderbolts, well they decided it, it wasn't forced on them. We don't even know to what extent SHIELD runs any group and how much the U.S. Government or state and local authorities do. But let's look at what we have evidence for, look at the Two Gun Kid, he became a NYS bounty hunter, nothing about the national government or SHIELD, all SHIELD is involed with him is knowing his identity. Following the evidence and some simple logic instead of just your own personal beliefs is alot better to figure out what is actually taking place.

Well, if we believe what the solicits about the Initative have to say, the implication is that every superhero who registers is drafted as a SHIELD agent under Tony Stark's 50-State Initative. That means every registered superhero is, essentially, a SHIELD enforcer. We also know that every superhero is assigned their own particular state that it their "beat" so to speak. Even with local oversight and authorization, SHIELD would still have a lot more pull than the local sherrif. And given the potential power a hero could have, let alone a group of them, the local law enforcement is essentially "window-dressing" since the bulk of the work will be done by superheroes.

But it SHOWED things in direct opposition to what Millar wrote.

No argument there. And that's part of the problem too because you essentially have a comic which you say can be "thrown out" because it conflicts with what goes on in the main series containing a vital a pivitoal reason for why Spidey ultimately leaves as opposed to being told why Spidey leaves.

CW2. Pro-Regs take out giant Doombot, crowed cheers them. They mention that for the first time in a long time people are actually happy about their heroes again. SHOWN not TOLD. And how the heck do you show a reduction in crime? The fact that IM is just standing around complaining that there is less crime IS being shown that. That is the ONLY way you can show something NOT happening...by it not happening!

Okay, I'll give you that taking down a Doombot is showing an example of them being effective. And yet, even though they take down a Doombot, almost none of the heroes (except for Wolverine) even think about actually going after Nitro, the guy who actually blew up Stamford (except for Wolverine, and unless you read that tie-in, you wouldn't know this). Having them take down Nitro as opposed to a Doombot would be a far better example of how registered heroes could work, I would think. As for showing how crime declined, you could have Iron Man and registered heroes actually arresting super villains and other criminals in "news footage" with the anchor saying that the crime rate has been reduced. You could have scores of villains in prison. And no, having REED stand around saying that crime is being reduced but not being shown any visual evidence of this other than the taking down of a single Doombot is more telling than showing, which you would think would be far easier for a comic book.

But there was nothing new in it. Everyone here understood what their sides were without having to be told. It's an ideological argument, we don't need their life stories to figure out why they chose their side.

I never said anything about that in order for them for a side to make a case, we had to get their life story. All I suggested was that it would go a long way in establishing both Iron Man and Cap's stances if they met and argued about SHRA before it passed.

Cap or The Punisher? :p

I would think it's obvious since you brought one of those characters up in order to emphasize your point and say that since one character on a particular side wasn't ethical, then the other character also wasn't ethical. :)

[zinderel]

Maybe the Confession will give Caps real reasons for going to war. But I can't imagine anti-regs are any happier than pro-regs at Cap believing Punisher style vigitlantism is constitutional and that being the reason for fighting.

I had to comment on this...

Cap believed that Punisher-style vigilantism was acceptable? If I recall correctly, Cap NEVER resorted to hiring on killers to hunt down the 'enemy', only VERY reluctantly accepted Franks assistance after Frank saved Spiderman, and then beat the living SNOT out of Frank for killing two villains right in front of him. Or am I reading a different comic?

Seems to me that Cap and the anti-reg side was standing against the further bloating of governmental power to invade the private lives of citizens, thus, he was anti corruption - And can anyone sanely argue that the SHRA was not, in execution at least, wildly corrupt? - in government, not pro vigilante.

Unfortunately, much like anti-government/corporate corruption advocates in the real world, the anti-reg side had a lot of conviction and not much by way of actual planning. They were idealists, and they had no plans to see their ideals through. The pro-reg side, cynical and in the pockets of the government and the corporate interests that feed the government, Had the resources, the media contacts, the manpower and the "ends justify the means" mindset to get their side the victory.

If anything, to me, Civil War was a cynical commentary on how idealism is pointless, and corporate fascism is the only way that can possibly win in the current political climate.

[Jmacq1]

I had to comment on this...

Cap believed that Punisher-style vigilantism was acceptable? If I recall correctly, Cap NEVER resorted to hiring on killers to hunt down the 'enemy', only VERY reluctantly accepted Franks assistance after Frank saved Spiderman, and then beat the living SNOT out of Frank for killing two villains right in front of him. Or am I reading a different comic?

Seems to me that Cap and the anti-reg side was standing against the further bloating of governmental power to invade the private lives of citizens, thus, he was anti corruption - And can anyone sanely argue that the SHRA was not, in execution at least, wildly corrupt? - in government, not pro vigilante.

Unfortunately, much like anti-government/corporate corruption advocates in the real world, the anti-reg side had a lot of conviction and not much by way of actual planning. They were idealists, and they had no plans to see their ideals through. The pro-reg side, cynical and in the pockets of the government and the corporate interests that feed the government, Had the resources, the media contacts, the manpower and the "ends justify the means" mindset to get their side the victory.

If anything, to me, Civil War was a cynical commentary on how idealism is pointless, and corporate fascism is the only way that can possibly win in the current political climate.

That actually does bring up a good point: Captain America made it very clear that the Punisher was to use "non lethal weapons only" once he joined on. And once he went back to his old ways he promptly got the snot kicked out of him and shown the door. He tried to hold to his ideals as much as possible (Captain America that is), and with the exception of dealing with Wilson Fisk and the fundamentally unlawful nature of his resistance (and all that came along with it), he succeeded.

Whereas Tony was willing from the get-go to compromise his morals and ideals to "do what needed to be done." And of course his side ultimately "won." There's a certain strength in that, but it's also a very dubious message for Marvel to be sending.

"Hey Kids! If you compromise your morals and do bad things for the "Greater good" you'll eventually win and everything will be peachy!"

[garin]

Whereas Tony was willing from the get-go to compromise his morals and ideals to "do what needed to be done." And of course his side ultimately "won." There's a certain strength in that, but it's also a very dubious message for Marvel to be sending.

"Hey Kids! If you compromise your morals and do bad things for the "Greater good" you'll eventually win and everything will be peachy!"I think you're absolutely right about the different ideologies of Captain America and Iron Man.

However, not every work of fiction is a morality play. I don't want to only read stories that send "positive messages". I can't think of anything less interesting.

[Mart]

Tony, an evil traitor? Just cos he set up a supervillain attack, illegally experimented on criminals, had a foreign dignitary assassinated, brought the US to the brink of a war that may still occur, endorsed likely illegal cloning experiments that resulted in at least one death, deceived the elected government and public, knowingly sparked a superhero war that killed dozens and cost billions, used innocent superheroes as jail guinea pigs, organised a team of the worst super-villains to take out non-reg heroes, sported that moustache . . .

Hey, no wonder Sally wants to shag his iron ass.

[Mart]

And let's not forget the brilliance of the two twits telling Captain America that apparently "ideals" are obsolete and "public opinion" is everything.



Which, of course, contradicts that Spidey issue in which Cap tells him that if you know in your gut you're right, you carry on, even if the world is against you.

Hmm, shouldn't Cap have quit World War II cos there were casualties?

[Niro]

WOW what a load of crap. I enjoyed reading the previous 10 issues and was expecting a great finish but it was just total rubbish, it made no sense at all.

They yell at Captain America for standing up for what he believes in and defending the principles america was built on and they applaud Tony Stark for all that crap he did? what kinda bs is that.

This issue made me :mad:

[zinderel]

They yell at Captain America for standing up for what he believes in and defending the principles america was built on and they applaud Tony Stark for all that crap he did? what kinda bs is that.

This issue made me :mad:

Frankly, I agree. I long stated that if Civil War didn't have a decent payoff, I was done with mainstream Marvel. If it wasn't for the fantasticosity of ANNIHILATION and the excellent writing of PAD and Mike Carey over in the X-Verse, I'd just stop buying all together. As it is, I'm done with all Avenger and Spiderman-related titles except Young Avengers (When/if it ever comes out) and have told my LCS to stop pulling those titles for me. After the disappointments that were Avengers Dissasembled, House of M and now Civil War, it's clear that the editorial department has it's collective heads planted firmly between the soft, fleshy mounds of their collective a**es and only care about making money, not good storytelling.

[XPac]

WOW what a load of crap. I enjoyed reading the previous 10 issues and was expecting a great finish but it was just total rubbish, it made no sense at all.

They yell at Captain America for standing up for what he believes in and defending the principles america was built on and they applaud Tony Stark for all that crap he did? what kinda bs is that.

This issue made me :mad:

In all fairness it was only Sally that yelled at Cap. And when she was applauding Tony, I think she was being sarcastic. The fact that Tony kicked them out after she said it showed that he at least didn't take her suppossed compliments at face value.

[Taskmaster]

Wow, I've never hated a character as much as I hated Sally in this issue, I wish she had been one of the civilians killed in Civil War #7. What a b1tch, yelling at Cap when she's the one that's an idiot, no you don't have to have an ipod or go on myspace to understand America, that's NOT what it's about, Cap's about the ideal not the crummy American Idol watching sheep state we have today

[XPac]

Wow, I've never hated a character as much as I hated Sally in this issue, I wish she had been one of the civilians killed in Civil War #7. What a b1tch, yelling at Cap when she's the one that's an idiot, no you don't have to have an ipod or go on myspace to understand America, that's NOT what it's about, Cap's about the ideal not the crummy American Idol watching sheep state we have today

Sally is definatley not on my favorite character list either... but I wonder if we're actually suppossed to like her or not.

I guess to a degree she's trying to be the voice of the PRO side for the common man... but she's doing it really badly. Or at least I think she's doing it badly, maybe some PRO's might disagree, I don't know.

[Anthony]

In all fairness it was only Sally that yelled at Cap. And when she was applauding Tony, I think she was being sarcastic. The fact that Tony kicked them out after she said it showed that he at least didn't take her suppossed compliments at face value.

I'm not sure it was all that sarcastic. Maybe Tony took it that way. But the fact that She didn't bust him publicly with their findings...not really seeing the sarcasm here.

[The Anti-Existence]

Man...people are nuts. Look at what some person said on another forum about Front Line #11.

i hate to say it but she was right. Tony made himself into Judas for the greater good. Its funny how one of the smartest men in the world was caught by two down and out reporters.

Ahh the good captain He got the proverbial shit beat out him for the second time and then hung his head like a whipped dog because she was right he was fighting for an outdated ideal.

My response:

Wow. Did you all read the same Front Line as me? Because your conclusions not only aren’t in the ballpark, there moving steadily away from the planet and out into the void of insanity.

Tony a “martyr?” Cap got the “shit” beat out of him? Wow. One can only ponder the nigh-infinite number of reasons both those statements are wrong.

Sally Floyd is the most idiotic reporter in the history of comicdom for starters. She goes to an interview with bias up her ass and spilling out her mouth and during the “interview” decides to unleash a verbal torrent of feces at Captain America.

Sally: Your problem is that you’re fighting for an ideal

OH NO! REALLY? He’s doing what he’s...always done? Dear God. And we HAVE to crucify him for fighting for an ideal! I mean, it would be much better if he fought for this:

Sally: .[America’s] about high cholesterol and Paris Hilton and scheming your way to the top.

Yep. at’s what America is about and that’s what matters! Constitutional liberties and love for the fundamental freedoms of the country be damned! What MATTERS is American Idol and MySpace, not having tremendous adoration for what our Founding Fathers set in place.

You know what? I can’t blame Cap for crying at the end of CW #7. Know why? Because he’s realized what America has degraded into - a country full of idiots. People who would rather side with Venom and Bullseye over the living legend of World War II. And now, with Ms. Floyd, she basically put the final nail in the coffin. America is irredeemable in its complete lack of understanding of the real issues or what is important. Ms. Floyd is the poster child for America’s brainlessness and no one can blame Cap for being saddened by seeing just how moronic the country he loved had become.

Cap did what he has ALWAYS done. Fight for the ideal America. And, really, I’d much rather have someone fight for that ideal than fight for this:
Sally:The country I love treats its celebrities like royalty and its teachers like dirt.

Quite frankly, America doesn’t deserve Captain America.


Tony? A hero? Nah. The term I’d best describe him with is “deluded drunk-with-power psychopath who thinks he can do whatever he feels like.” A prison in the Negative Zone where people can be held indefinitely? WHY NOT! Arranging for assassinations to provoke a war to raise money and rally the heroes together? SURE. If the war happens and millions die, wll...oH WELL. At least all the heroes are registering.

So, Ben and Sally didn’t report a man who’s defecated on every law and freedom. Captain America lies in prison for doing what he thought was right in fighting a “bogus law” and Tony Stark, the man who nearly started a war with Atlantis and employs superviillains, gets to remain head of the most powerful military group on the planet.

[The Xenos]

Looking over this thread, I'm reminded of the 'horribly illegal torrents' thread in the YABS forum.

Yes, it is wrong for people to just go around anonymously downaloading everthing and never paying for a single thing. Just like it's possibly wrong for anyone to go around anonymously and fight crime in a mask.

Yet it's even more wrong for the government to make everyone register or for the government or companies to be monitoring American citizens. It's wrong for thr RIAA to track someone down and sue people for millions of dollars. It's wrong when record labels install malicious software on their audio CDs (see the Sony/BMG faisco).

So maybe Cap is doing something illegal and possibly immoral.

What Tony Stark is doing is many fold worse.

[AllisterH]

I'm not sure using American Idol is an example of how America is braindead.

The fact is, reality shows have ALWAYS been a part of the American tv landscape. Going back to the Ed Sullivan show and other variety shows and even things like Candid Camera, viewers love watching "normal" people on stage or out on the street.

[Orah-kel]

I'm so glad this title is finally over. It has been nothing but bad for Civil War and everything surrounding it. Not only did the writing suck (it reminded me of The Sentry were each issue everyone changed their minds and nobody knew what was going on...) but did it really have to contradict everything the other titles were saying. It makes everyone look bad and stupid, from Tony (who was made out to look like a villain because of this) to 2 smart reporters who changed into dumb rednecks.... I mean come on, who would believe something as "Yes, there is a traitor amongst us.... Ow yeah, it's me, your leader". Like i said earlier, glad it's over, now let some real titles show us how the characters of Civil War really have a heart beating in them

[The Anti-Existence]

The fact is, reality shows have ALWAYS been a part of the American tv landscape. Going back to the Ed Sullivan show and other variety shows and even things like Candid Camera, viewers love watching "normal" people on stage or out on the street.

I watched the Ed Sulivan show... It involved people with talent. American Idol gains 90% of its popularity by putting people on TV with NO talent and then having some jackass criticize them.

[IamtheRock3]

I watched the Ed Sulivan show... It involved people with talent. American Idol gains 90% of its popularity by putting people on TV with NO talent and then having some jackass criticize them.

How about the GONG SHOW

[Keith_Martineau]

It starts that way.

And then it becomes a show about supporting people who DO have talent to the end of a competition.

[bulbasteve]

I had to comment on this...

Cap believed that Punisher-style vigilantism was acceptable? If I recall correctly, Cap NEVER resorted to hiring on killers to hunt down the 'enemy', only VERY reluctantly accepted Franks assistance after Frank saved Spiderman, and then beat the living SNOT out of Frank for killing two villains right in front of him. Or am I reading a different comic?

Seems to me that Cap and the anti-reg side was standing against the further bloating of governmental power to invade the private lives of citizens, thus, he was anti corruption - And can anyone sanely argue that the SHRA was not, in execution at least, wildly corrupt? - in government, not pro vigilante


Heh, yes you are reading a different comic, you are reading the main title and everything else but not Frontline! :p

I believe we have a right to bear arms, a right to defend and a right to choose. ... If that means standing against my own government, rejecting a bogus law passed by my own superiors, then I suppose that's what it means.

Unfortunatly Jenkins decided to portray Cap as supporting gun toting vigilante. Because well Jenkins sucks. Hell I mean I don't even think Ultimate Cap is a 2nd amendment nutjob like that...

The pro-reg side, cynical and in the pockets of the government and the corporate interests that feed the government, Had the resources, the media contacts, the manpower and the "ends justify the means" mindset to get their side the victory.

I don't think solving global poverty and climate change is cynical. Everyone at Marvel have described Tony as another idealist, it is only his ideals are utopian and unlike Cap he knows how to actually have a shot at getting them done.

[desanth]

I've got to say, how did both Sally and Ben track down all the info on Stark? They didn't do it together, and at least Sally is a moron, so how come no one else has found out? I'd have to say, I think Stark wouldn't leave a trail unless he did it on purpose, to get caught. And about the Stark charity thing where he gives to families of superheroes etc, sounds like a load of bull, trying to ease his conscious, which is why he left that trail.
Is Ben going to go back to the Bugle now and say 'Whoops, I didn't go with the story, can I get my job back?'
And with what I heard Sally saying to Cap, I'd find it more funny if they made her overweight, talk like an idiot, or even go on a reality show.
Frontline is gay.

[myslead]

Quite frankly, America doesn’t deserve Captain America.

he should move to Canada. he could call himself the Guardian or something :p