Literary cliches--- the worst you've discovered

[scribe54321]

What would be the worst cliche or series of cliches that you know of or that you discovered when you've read novels? Any type of novel?

What are the worst little tidbits or crutches that writers use when they try to write something they think would be interesting and it turns out to be something that is hackneyed and stale?

[Corrina]

The male mid-life crisis, personified by the crush on a much younger woman.

:yawn:

[scribe54321]

Yep, I've seen that, too. And it is pretty boring.

[Sally Sensational]

Worst crutch has to be the romance novel formula -

Bad boy (pirate, rake, hard- boiled detective, shark-souled lawyer, IRS agent, vampire, werewolf, etc.) meets/kidnaps/is forced into the company of Good Girl (who is almost always a virgin or has at least not had sex in many years and is almost universally described as having more book-learning than a woman of her "type" should). Bad Boy refuses to admit that he requires Good Girl for "salvation" of some form or other. Bad Boy seduces Good Girl and they have hot hot sex. Good Girl then gets herself into some trouble requiring Bad Boy to rescue her. Bad Boy then realizes he can't live without Good Girl and they have more hot sex and live happily ever after.

Unfortunately, this has bled over into most paranormal fiction and quite a bit of mystery/detective fiction. I've even seen traces of it in Comics. Young Adult fiction is also rife with it, minus the hot sex bits.

And yes, Jane Austen started it, but she also perfected it - 200 years ago! Minus the hot sex, of course.

[scribe54321]

Yes, that's true. I have seen that in some detective novels I've read. And in some suspense stories as well. You're right, that is an irksome cliche that seems to still work for some reason or other.

[Infra-Man]

Howsabout: Authors going over the superficial details of material goods in order to critique consumer culture.

[scribe54321]

Yeah, that, too. Pretty pesky stuff.

[Buzz Dixon]

The male mid-life crisis, personified by the crush on a much younger woman.

:yawn:Especially if written by a college professor about a college professor who is boffing a student.

Bonus points if it's a male student.

[Corrina]

Extra bonus points if it came out of a literary writing workshop.

And, yep, I hate that romance cliche too. The first time I was moved to writing something down, I swapped it around.

The thing is most of this stuff we've mentioned became cliches because someone did them well first. But people keep going to the same well, over and over. Bridget Jones is pretty damn funny, especially since it was meant as satire.

The gazillionth chick lit book with shoes on the cover is not.
Note: those sick of this trend, be aware that publishing has declared chick lit dead.

Sadly, lots of fiction is written to formula, because formula is something marketing people understand. Until the next big thing comes along, like Da Vinci Code, and then people want THAT formula. Vicious cycle.

[scribe54321]

I suppose a considerable amount of current literature brought out for the public at the present time has more to do with marketing than with talent. It's the same old story; Whatever can be latched onto that will sell the most in a quick amount of time.

Unless, of course, writers have the courage and determination to forego the standard way of publishing and bring out whatever they create in other ways, like self-publishing, perhaps.

[stealthwise]

Howsabout: Authors going over the superficial details of material goods in order to critique consumer culture.

Leave Palahniuk alone! He did it well, and as far as I'm aware, he did it first!

[stealthwise]

The male mid-life crisis, personified by the crush on a much younger woman.

:yawn:

Dammit!

*Tosses half-finished manuscript in the garbage*

[stealthwise]

Especially if written by a college professor about a college professor who is boffing a student.

Bonus points if it's a male student.

DAMMIT!

Are you people trying to kill me?

[the4thpip]

I once translated one of them "Starfleet Cadets" books into German (Star Trek for children), and the main character actually said something like "I think I learned something today..." in the final chapter and then summarized all the moral lessons that were to be learned from the book. Ick.

[scribe54321]

That example kind of reminds me of the way Aesop's Fables would moralize in the stories about different social ills and whatnot.

They were good for their day, perhaps, but when we've all heard the same kind of moralizing over and over again, then it would become an overused cliche.

[mistervader]

The whole "you're adopted" reveal.

I swear. You have two Caucasian parents and an African-American kid. Isn't that obvious?!?

[Infra-Man]

Leave Palahniuk alone! He did it well, and as far as I'm aware, he did it first!

Hehe, Chuck can do it well and so can Don DeLillo, IMO, but when it's done badly, it's a real headshaker.

I'm probably wrong here, but it was probably Donald Barthelme who started that cliche.

[stealthwise]

Hehe, Chuck can do it well and so can Don DeLillo, IMO, but when it's done badly, it's a real headshaker.

I'm probably wrong here, but it was probably Donald Barthelme who started that cliche.

Oh probably, I've only read Palahniuk of those three. Don DeLillo... who is that? I've heard the name many times before.

[Gilda Dent]

"If you kill him, you're no better than he is/lowering yourself to his level."

"This weapon is too dangerous for anyone to posess. It must be destroyed, lest it destroys us all."

"Those machines we created have become sentient and are trying to kill us!"

[Infra-Man]

Oh probably, I've only read Palahniuk of those three. Don DeLillo... who is that? I've heard the name many times before.

DeLillo's keen beans. His two works he's most recognized for (least the one's my friends keep talking about) are White Noise and Underworld. He's a good writer and reminds me a bit of a postmodern Philip Roth, though this is coming from a guy who's only read White Noise and Americana... and the only Roth I've read so far is American Pastoral, so I may be off on this description of both of these authors' works. A hefty copy of Underworld is staring me down as I type this.

White Noise is definitely worth checking out -- basically an examination of pop-intellectualism, consumer culture, and the different ways people try to ignore the inevitablity of death. I couldn't really get into Americana.

[captain_unimpressive]

Have you ever read a book by R. L. Stine?
Because...


GAH.

[Tobias March]

Underworld unfortunately caused a large number of people to doubt the existence of Greenland.

's true.

[Infra-Man]

Underworld unfortunately caused a large number of people to doubt the existence of Greenland.

's true.

Haha... If that's the case, looks like I'm moving it to the top of my reading list. Damn... that thing is going to dislocate my shoulder every time I lug it around in my book bag.

[Gilda Dent]

DeLillo's keen beans. His two works he's most recognized for (least the one's my friends keep talking about) are White Noise and Underworld. He's a good writer and reminds me a bit of a postmodern Philip Roth, though this is coming from a guy who's only read White Noise and Americana. A hefty copy of Underworld is staring me down as I type this. White Noise is definitely worth checking out -- basically an examination of pop-intellectualism, consumer culture, and the different ways people try to ignore the inevitablity of death. I couldn't really get into Americana.

White Noise is wonderful.

The most interesting bit:

A man is exposed to a mysterious toxin. There is no way to detect whether he's been affected by it. If he has, it will inevitably kill him, but there's no way of knowing how long it will take until it does--it might be days, it might be forty years, but it inevitably will kill him, but until it does, it will have no visible symptoms. This terrifies the man.

The interesting part? The man's situation hasn't changed. That's the same set of circumstances everyone is it all the time. He's just been made more keenly aware of his mortality and the uncertainty of life and that is what is upsetting him.

[Larry Dixon]

The Evil Twin!

In comics, most especially the inexplicable "Opposite Number," IE, someone who has exactly the same powers as the hero, and faces off against said hero.

In books, there's the dreadful "he's just like me except for one thing that happened that made him completely eeeeevul."

So many writers forget that every character has their own life, lived minute by minute, and that people are MUCH more complex than "Hey I'll concentrate everything I am on this one thing!" As people live, they spin off in directions that Ain't Damn Likely to make them ANYone's Opposite Number.

Then again, that's the difference between writing story for the sake of story, and writing characters.

Yuck.

[Sarah Beach]

Let's see....

Romantic couples who get separated by a misunderstanding that could be quickly solved if ONE of the dunces asked a simple question. But they never talk to each other, so they never find out.

(Too many wannabe Georgette Heyers use that as the "problem" for their stories. Gah.)

Fantasy novels with a group of characters assembled as if they were straight out of a RPG. (*sigh* :rolleyes: )

[Larry Dixon]

Fantasy novels with a group of characters assembled as if they were straight out of a RPG. (*sigh* :rolleyes: )

My favorite line from the movie "The Gamers":

"Greetings."

"You look trustworthy! Join us!"

(followed closely by "backstab with a ballista")

[Michael P]

Fantasy novels with a group of characters assembled as if they were straight out of a RPG. (*sigh* :rolleyes: )

Leapfrogging off of this, I'm just about fed up with the "Asshole Paladin" cliche. Yeah, we get it, religion and authority are totally lame and hypocritical. What other wonderful insights into the human condition do you have for us, emotional fourteen-year-old?

[scribe54321]

Here's another crutch some popular writers use, especially in dealing with the same characters over a series of novels, regardless of the genre; whatever happens in a particular story, the writer will make characters act or react based upon situations in exactly the same manner as they did in other stories, not even trying to add variety to the characters' perspective.

And if that isn't annoying enough, the writer will make characters repeat the sort of catch phrases which reflect a character's personality, sometimes over and over again.

[scribe54321]

I loath to namedrop in this thread but I feel that in this case, particularly in light of what I just wrote concerning popular writers and characters not evolving or changing over a series of stories, I think it may be appropriate.

Okay, I have noticed that Linda K Hamilton is bad for writing characters who say little phrasings over and over again. I have tried to read several of her novels but in each instance, it annoyed me that the characters did not evolve or change much, if any.

[Infra-Man]

Maybe: old curmudgeons who don't like the holiday season learning the true meaning of Christmas. That may be more of a TV cliche, actually.

[thespianphryne]

[....]

Okay, I have noticed that Linda K Hamilton is bad for writing characters who say little phrasings over and over again. I have tried to read several of her novels but in each instance, it annoyed me that the characters did not evolve or change much, if any.

Do you mean Laurell K. Hamilton?

[scribe54321]

Yes, that's who I meant. I forgot her first name and put "Linda" instead.
Silly me. :o

[Larry Dixon]

Leapfrogging off of this, I'm just about fed up with the "Asshole Paladin" cliche. Yeah, we get it, religion and authority are totally lame and hypocritical. What other wonderful insights into the human condition do you have for us, emotional fourteen-year-old?

Cheers to that. Here is a neat story.

Back at Ft. Bragg, there was a gamer whose name was, and I am not making this up, Rich Gallant. He was a very dedicated Christian, and he played paladins. And he was awesome. Genial and caring and all the paladin ideals, both RL & IC.

And one day, someone asked him, "If you're a Christian why do you play D&D? Don't you get a lot of heat over that from your church?"

And Rich Gallant replied, "If there's any evil in the game, I want to be there to oppose it. And by playing the game, I get practice at being a better man."

Beautiful.

[Sarah Beach]

I have good friends who met (& fell in love) playing D&D at their church. Heh. Admittedly, in LA, and a church that had a lot of people who worked in the entertainment business.

Back to cliches -- okay, I have a pet peeve where some responds to an inquiry about some difficulty with the line "You have no idea."

Sorry, but all human experience CAN BE COMMUNICATED. It's sort of why there will always be a place for storytellers. We all have imagination. We may not all have experienced a particular sort of thing, but we do also have to capacity to imagine what something different might be like.

I've gotten really, really tired of the "You have no idea" superior dismissal of someone else's sympathy or interest. Pfft.

[stealthwise]

I have good friends who met (& fell in love) playing D&D at their church. Heh. Admittedly, in LA, and a church that had a lot of people who worked in the entertainment business.

Back to cliches -- okay, I have a pet peeve where some responds to an inquiry about some difficulty with the line "You have no idea."

Sorry, but all human experience CAN BE COMMUNICATED. It's sort of why there will always be a place for storytellers. We all have imagination. We may not all have experienced a particular sort of thing, but we do also have to capacity to imagine what something different might be like.

I've gotten really, really tired of the "You have no idea" superior dismissal of someone else's sympathy or interest. Pfft.

To be honest though, I've never read anything or seen anything that's conveyed to me the powerful feelings I've experienced in the past couple of years.

I've never encountered a story that's made me feel even a glimpse of what true love has felt like, and I couldn't describe what that feeling was before I felt it myself.

The same is true for the birth of my daughter. It's just... ineffable, literally defying description. Before my wedding and her birth, I didn't believe that love existed.

I've also never experienced truly heavy depression, but I can believe that it exists, although it's nearly impossible for me to glean even a fraction of it from reading a book or watching a movie or tv show.

However, now that I've gone through what I've gone through, I can much more readily identify with stories that involve love, loss, suffering, and human relationships. I think there's the potential to convey anything, but the actual reception depends on the audience, and how limited or expansive their own experiences are.

[Adam C]

"Those machines we created have become sentient and are trying to kill us!"

I wonder if anyone's written a story where the machines simply demand equal rights?


Fantasy novels with a group of characters assembled as if they were straight out of a RPG. (*sigh* :rolleyes: )

Ooooo-oooo! And the blurb on the back describes them as a group of "unlikely heroes"?

Personally I think anyone using the "hero with a destiny" bit should be barred from writing.

Bonus points if said hero is a young boy/male who is unaware of his true heritage. Double bonus points if that destiny is to free his people or some similar nonsense.

(I wonder if anyone has tried to mercilessly take the piss out of that? Oh wait...)

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/normanspinrad/irndream.jpg

[Sharpandpointies]

Cheers to that. Here is a neat story.

Back at Ft. Bragg, there was a gamer whose name was, and I am not making this up, Rich Gallant. He was a very dedicated Christian, and he played paladins. And he was awesome. Genial and caring and all the paladin ideals, both RL & IC.

And one day, someone asked him, "If you're a Christian why do you play D&D? Don't you get a lot of heat over that from your church?"

And Rich Gallant replied, "If there's any evil in the game, I want to be there to oppose it. And by playing the game, I get practice at being a better man."

Beautiful.

This is truly awesome. :)

[The Mirrorball Man]

I wonder if anyone's written a story where the machines simply demand equal rights?
"I, Robot" (the movie) had elements of that.

[Gilda Dent]

I wonder if anyone's written a story where the machines simply demand equal rights?

The Asimov novella "The Bicentennial Man" and a few other of his robot short stories.

It was a running theme in Star Trek: The Next Generation, and the episodes "The Measure of a Man", and "Elementary Dear Data" in particular.

It was also a recurring theme on Star Trek: Voyager with The Doctor, specifically the episodes "Latent Image", "Flesh and Blood", and "Author, Author".

It's been a recurring theme on Battlestar Galactica with disputes over how the Sharons should be treated.

[The Mirrorball Man]

It's been a recurring theme on Battlestar Galactica with disputes over how the Sharons should be treated.

True, but they killed billions of people before getting to that point.

[Infra-Man]

The dark secret in a character's past: He/she was affiliated with the Nazis.

[Corrina]

There's an incredible book on loss called "The Year of Magical Thinking" by Joan Didion. It's heartbreaking--it's the most articulate book I've ever read on experiencing the sudden loss of a loved one. It's about the year following the sudden death from a heart attack of Didion's much-beloved husband.

But I digress. I avoid most literary fiction simply because of revelations like that spoiler. While that looks like a revelation to most people and a commentary on the fragility of life, I don't need to read that. I'm all to aware of how fragile it is. I think what hits my pet peeve is not the books themselves (some of which are written by amazingly talented people) but simply that the literary establishment insists that these books are the 'true' books, the ones people must read for insight into the human condition, and that books in other genres couldn't possibly have literary or long-term merit.

Know a romance cliche I hate?
Instant physical attraction. Even in situations where physical attraction wouldn't even be an issues, like the "I've got to stop this bad guy and...oops! Hey, someone about to kill me but the love of my life just walked in and man, are they HOT and now I'm going to spend pages thinking about how Hot they are despite this crisis, even though the outcome of the crisis means my career/life."

And both genders are written with reactions like this. Gah.

[scribe54321]

Yes, I agree, corrina, I've noticed a lot of novels, regardless of genre, have that sort of instant physical attraction bit. I don't know why that seems to be the case but I sense that to move the plot of a story along, the writer injects that immediate intimacy for affect.

It seems to be a very popular plot device. Not only is it found in books but in comics and in movies and TV shows, too. We all know that instant physical attraction cannot possibly happen the way it is portrayed in those ways found in movies or books and whatnot, simply because real relationships, particularly on the physical level, take a period time to develop.

It would seem to me that all it really amounts to is instant lust fulfillment that the writers indulge in, not just for themselves but also for their readership, too.

I wonder how that cliche could be avoided, if at all.

[Adam C]

I avoid most literary fiction simply because of revelations like that spoiler. While that looks like a revelation to most people and a commentary on the fragility of life, I don't need to read that. I'm all to aware of how fragile it is. I think what hits my pet peeve is not the books themselves (some of which are written by amazingly talented people) but simply that the literary establishment insists that these books are the 'true' books, the ones people must read for insight into the human condition, and that books in other genres couldn't possibly have literary or long-term merit.

Wait, you don't read literary fiction, not because of the books themselves, but because of what other people say about them? :confused:

[Corrina]

Nope, I don't read them because their themes don't speak to me, not because what people say about them.

But I get annoyed when people who read them think they are superior in all ways to other forms of fiction.

[scribe54321]

Corrina, I'm confused here. Please help me with this: which books did you say you avoid reading?

[Corrina]

Most literary fiction, even stuff I realize is wonderful but not for me.

John Irving, Cormac McCarthy, Toni Morrison....just to give some examples. It's not the quality of it (well, there are some that are terrible but that happens with books in all genres), it's that they don't speak to me.

[scribe54321]

Corrina, just out of curiosity, what books do you read?

[Corrina]

Genre fiction, all kinds except horror. Romance, SF, fantasy, mystery...a lot of young adult stuff lately to keep up with my daughter, historical non-fiction.

Heinlein, Asimov, Bujold, Lackey, McCaffrey, Julian May, Nora Roberts, Jennifer Crusie, Karen Harbaugh, Sue Grafton, Arthur Conan Doyle, Robert B. Parker, JRR Tolkien, Alison Weir, Thomas Costain (historical non-fiction), a recent book about the Jedburghs in WWII, Richard Clarke's "AGainst all Enemies," "Devil in the White City" by Erik Larson....Carole Nelson Douglas, Laurie King...there's more but that's what I spot on my shelf now.

[scribe54321]

Ah, good stuff. Great stuff, actually. :)

I really enjoy Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, any Sherlock Holmes story is a classic, Nora Roberts writing as J.D. Robb and her Eve Dallas series, and I thoroughly enjoy reading Robert B. Parker's Spencer novels.

I've even enjoyed Carole Nelson Douglas's series featuring Irene Adler. Really great stuff.

Come to think of it, I recently read "Devil In The White City" and it was a great read. All that history concerning the Chicago World's Fair and the creepy background of that one man behind the disappearances of those young women. What did you think of it?

[Corrina]

I think Doyle has spoiled me for most mysteries. Sure, he created an iconic character but, damn, could he write a perfect mystery with all the clues laid out to the reader but inevitably ones that could only be interpreted by Holmes.

Devil in the White City is fascinating but it's not a narrative story, it's a slice in time, contrasting how the Worlds Fair developed with how great evil developed in Chicago, at about the same time. I found it really interesting but thought that especially the chapters dealing with the serial killer could have been better arranged, so there was a better sense of what happened when. Instead there's a lot of jumping back and forth on the timeline, or so it seemed to me.

Definitely worth reading, though.

Hmm....now to stay on-topic, I have to think of another literary cliche that's past its time. What about the one where the group of friends does something very wrong and then spends the rest of their lives covering it up?

And mostly what they did is a murder or rape. Too bad none of them ever try to cover up that period in time where they lived at the nudist colony or became temporarily part of a plot to overthrow the government of Switzerland or something. :)

[Infra-Man]

Another cliche: A road trip or journey of self-discovery that ends with the traveler(s) realizing that whatever it was they were looking for was actually within them all along.

[Infra-Man]

If we're talking literary fiction as a tanget in this thread, I oughta pop in these excerpts from an article Nick Hornby did last year:

If reading books is to survive as a leisure activity - and there are statistics that show that this is by no means assured - then we have to promote the joys of reading, rather than the (dubious) benefits.

I would never attempt to dissuade anyone from reading a book. But please, if you're reading a book that's killing you, put it down and read something else, just as you would reach for the remote if you weren't enjoying a television programme.

Your failure to enjoy a highly rated novel doesn't mean you're dim - you may find that Graham Greene is more to your taste, or Stephen Hawking, or Iris Murdoch, or Ian Rankin. Dickens, Stephen King, whoever.

It doesn't matter. All I know is that you can get very little from a book that is making you weep with the effort of reading it. You won't remember it, and you'll learn nothing from it, and you'll be less likely to choose a book over Big Brother next time you have a choice.

...

But there it is. It's set in stone, apparently: books must be hard work, otherwise they're a waste of time. And so we grind our way through serious, and sometimes seriously dull, novels, or enormous biographies of political figures, and every time we do so, books come to seem a little more like a duty, and Pop Idol starts to look a little more attractive. Please, please, put it down.

...

I don't mean we should all be reading chick-lit or thrillers (although if that's what you want to read, it's fine by me, because here's something else no one will ever tell you: if you don't read the classics, or the novel that won this year's Booker Prize, then nothing bad will happen to you; more importantly, nothing good will happen to you if you do); I simply mean that turning pages should not be like walking through thick mud.

The whole purpose of books is that we read them, and if you find you can't, it might not be your inadequacy that's to blame. 'Good' books can be pretty awful sometimes.

Amen, brutha.

[Shisho]

What would be the worst cliche or series of cliches that you know of or that you discovered when you've read novels? Any type of novel?

What are the worst little tidbits or crutches that writers use when they try to write something they think would be interesting and it turns out to be something that is hackneyed and stale?

There's one bit of lazy writing I find more in TV scripts than in novels. My sweetie and I play a game where we guess how long it takes for someone to say "Space time continuum" on the Sci-Fi channel. I usually win, but only because I'm the geekier of the two. ;) The whole parallel universe thing is fun and all, but soooo exploited.

I'm kinda bored with the whole Middle Eastern = Evil stereotype. It's getting so tired. If I read one more book where the bad guy is some wife-beating bad guy twirling his mustache and declaring a jihad on everything I'm going to puke. Have these people even met a muslim? I mean really?

[scribe54321]

Shisho, you're quite right in saying that Muslims have been depicted in popular fiction and in other media for at least the last five years as being nefarious and scheming, wanting to take away the freedom of everyone, which is simply not the case.

It's only the radical fundamentalists and their terrorist allies who have caused problems for everyone and because of their actions in recent years, they are doing a terrible amount of damage to people's view concerning Islam.

[scribe54321]

Yep, Corrina, Sherlock Holmes is literature's greatest and most well-known detective. He could solve a case like no other, even when the chances were slim and there was very little hope, he somehow always managed to solve it through sheer willpower and his unparalleled powers of deduction.

[Shisho]

Yep, Corrina, Sherlock Holmes is literature's greatest and most well-known detective. He could solve a case like no other, even when the chances were slim and there was very little hope, he somehow always managed to solve it through sheer willpower and his unparalleled powers of deduction.

I know this will expose me for the geek bookworm I am, but have either of you read Neil Gaiman's short story "A Study in Emerald?" He basically takes the world of HP Lovecraft and The world of Doyle and weaves them together. I was skeptical at first, but it's a clever, fun read. (But I'm a little biased because I love Gaiman so very much.)

http://www.neilgaiman.com/exclusive/shortstories

[scribe54321]

Hmm, I wasn't aware of that one. I'll see about reading it some time.

Thanks for the heads-up on that, Shisho. :)

[Night Swordsman]

I agree on this. Thanks Shiso,looking forward to reading it myself.

[Michael P]

I know this will expose me for the geek bookworm I am, but have either of you read Neil Gaiman's short story "A Study in Emerald?" He basically takes the world of HP Lovecraft and The world of Doyle and weaves them together. I was skeptical at first, but it's a clever, fun read. (But I'm a little biased because I love Gaiman so very much.)

http://www.neilgaiman.com/exclusive/shortstories

That story is awesome. He completely got me with the ending.

[Corrina]

Yep, Corrina, Sherlock Holmes is literature's greatest and most well-known detective. He could solve a case like no other, even when the chances were slim and there was very little hope, he somehow always managed to solve it through sheer willpower and his unparalleled powers of deduction.


But Doyle's brilliance as a writer is that these deductions never seemed cheap. All the clues were there, in plain sight. Once explained by Holmes, they made perfect sense. Now *that* is a mystery writer. And it's pretty much ruined me for others because Doyle was the first I read and I haven't found other writers who can do it as well, as consistently. (Because even Doyle wasn't perfect.)

I have to find time to read Gaiman's story. My other favorite is one by T.C. Boyle, in a short-story collection, which makes Watson the detective and Holmes the drug-addled simpleton. It's scathingly funny. Well, Boyle usually is. He's one of my literary fiction exceptions. Mostly because he makes me laugh.

[scribe54321]

Yes, I certainly concur with you. Corrina, I must ask you this question because I can sense you are a fan of Sherlock Holmes. What is your favorite short story or novel out of the established canon?

[Corrina]

Oh, no, not a fan.

:hides copies of W.S. Baring-Gould's Annotated Sherlock Holmes & the New Annotated Sherlock Holmes published two years ago:

I have lots of favorites. Scandal in Bohemia. The Problem of Thor Bridge. Hound of the Baskervilles. The Greek Interpreter (one has to love Mycroft, I think...)...

It's too bad the Sherlock Holmes-type detective itself has turned into a cliche.

[scribe54321]

Yes, that's true. The Sherlock Holmes-type of character has become something of a cliche, although I have yet to see a mystery writer who can strike a perfect balance between Holme's uncanny powers of deduction and providing a warmer sensitivity and compassion for a detective.

Speaking of favorite Holmes stories, the Hound Of The Baskervilles is certainly up on the list, The Speckled Band, The Six Napoleons, The Norwood Builder, and The Disappearance of Lady Frances Carfax are among my favorites also.

[Buzz Dixon]

Yep, Corrina, Sherlock Holmes is literature's greatest and most well-known detective. He could solve a case like no other, even when the chances were slim and there was very little hope, he somehow always managed to solve it through sheer willpower and his unparalleled powers of deduction.I'm a big fan of Holmes, but stage magician/professional skeptic The Amazing Randi once made a rather telling observation about the series: In order for the stories to work, everything has to fit into a rigid, immutable universe where evidence can be interpreted one way and only one way. It's not to say a certain type of splash pattern isn't produced by mud flung up from a specific type of carriage, but to base a deduction on the assumption that only that type of carriage could produce such a pattern is erroneous. Further, Holmes' universe requires everyone to pretty much stay where they are re social classes; any attempt to move up or out will fail and the person will be exposed as an impostor.

[Sarah Beach]

I'm a big fan of Holmes, but stage magician/professional skeptic The Amazing Randi once made a rather telling observation about the series: In order for the stories to work, everything has to fit into a rigid, immutable universe where evidence can be interpreted one way and only one way. It's not to say a certain type of splash pattern isn't produced by mud flung up from a specific type of carriage, but to base a deduction on the assumption that only that type of carriage could produce such a pattern is erroneous. Further, Holmes' universe requires everyone to pretty much stay where they are re social classes; any attempt to move up or out will fail and the person will be exposed as an impostor.

I don't know that Randi's observation about staying in a social class is particularly valid. As I recall there are quite a number of stories where people have either risen above their original class (and Holmes is sympathetic toward them), or due to unfortunate circumstances fallen in class status. I'd say that the Holmes stories generally show a support for social mobility in a society that was against it.

Yeah.... me too. I first encountered Holmes in 4th grade, in an unabridged version. On top of that, I started with His Last Bow, so I came at the canon backwards. But after I read HLB I was absolutely thirsty for more Holmes. My Dad then bought me a juvenile book of Holmes stuff, abridged. Slurped that up. So he next bought me an omnibus edition of Holmes, that has all the stories in it. (Still have that.) And I too have the Annotated Holmes (at work).

In fact, my next recreational writing I think will be a book of "Holmes on detection". I'm thinking of calling it You Know My Methods, Watson. Heh.

[scribe54321]

Certainly an ambitious work, your idea concerning creating a book of "Holmes on detection", to be sure. :)

[Sarah Beach]

Certainly an ambitious work, your idea concerning creating a book of "Holmes on detection", to be sure. :)

Yes, but it's a good excuse and motivator for finally getting around to re-reading the whole of the canon.

It's also great research for writing "the world's greatest detective". Heh.

Ah! But back to cliches --- um.... Period romance heroines who are uber-competent in all the "manly arts", but are a mess when they put on their skirts. Can't we have some "feminine" heroines without them being wimps?

[Larry Dixon]

-points his & his wife's shelf at the bookstore-

How about there? :)

[Scott Iskow]

Actually, I think romance itself is a pretty big cliche in storytelling. How many action movies have romantic subplots? Any attempt to appeal to a "wider" audience gives way to shoehorning into the story generalized conceptions of what people think is "good."

Can't say just how "literary" it is, though.

[Infra-Man]

Actually, I think romance itself is a pretty big cliche in storytelling. How many action movies have romantic subplots? Any attempt to appeal to a "wider" audience gives way to shoehorning into the story generalized conceptions of what people think is "good."

Can't say just how "literary" it is, though.

Hmmm... I guess I never thought of romance itself as being cliche so much as it's perfunctory. Like the dry toast and bad jam that comes with your breakfast at a diner, it just sorta pops up.

Now the circumstances surrounding the romance, that's where the cliches come in (e.g., enemies falling for each other).

[Reverend Smooth]

Actually, I think romance itself is a pretty big cliche in storytelling. How many action movies have romantic subplots? Any attempt to appeal to a "wider" audience gives way to shoehorning into the story generalized conceptions of what people think is "good."

Can't say just how "literary" it is, though.
'Insert obligatory heterosexual love scene here', yeah. At this point I just roll my eyes and do something else for that 'necessary' three minutes of overwrought frottage.

[stealthwise]

'Insert obligatory heterosexual love scene here', yeah. At this point I just roll my eyes and do something else for that 'necessary' three minutes of overwrought frottage.

Cut out the crap with Cameron Diaz and some other love scenary tripe, and Gangs of New York is a much better paced, stronger film.

[Reverend Smooth]

Cut out the crap with Cameron Diaz and some other love scenary tripe, and Gangs of New York is a much better paced, stronger film.

Yeah, I was much more into the struggle between DiCaprio and Lewis.

[scribe54321]

I really wonder how the romance cliche could be reworked or perhaps rediscovered in literature without making it seem overly used and trite.
I mean, in terms of making it realistic to readers.

I know that in most stories, there seems to be a guy or a gal, who eventually falls for a guy or a girl and the ways it ends up to that can run the entire spectrum, from slowly paced and boring to completely smarmy, tacky and perverse.

[Night Swordsman]

Yeah, I was much more into the struggle between DiCaprio and Lewis.

I totally agree with both you and Stealthwise. The film felt bogged down with Diaz in general. DiCaprio and Lewis were electric in their scenes together.

[Magneto_X]

I wonder if anyone's written a story where the machines simply demand equal rights?


The new Battlestar Galactica and The Animatrix delve into that.

[Magneto_X]

The dark secret in a character's past: He/she was affiliated with the Nazis.

But the Nazis are the *ultimate* (21st Century) villains.

Even today they still make great enemies in entertainment.

[Corrina]

I really wonder how the romance cliche could be reworked or perhaps rediscovered in literature without making it seem overly used and trite.


Better writing?

I don't think a romance in an action film is a cliche so much as a story point that's rarely written well.

When done well, it's awesome. See "The Terminator."

[Magneto_X]

But Doyle's brilliance as a writer is that these deductions never seemed cheap. All the clues were there, in plain sight. Once explained by Holmes, they made perfect sense. Now *that* is a mystery writer. And it's pretty much ruined me for others because Doyle was the first I read and I haven't found other writers who can do it as well, as consistently. (Because even Doyle wasn't perfect.)


Larry Millett does this well in his Sherlock Holmes books.

He is also one of the few authors who can merge past events with fictional characters that seems effortless.

He even lists the books he researches for said history. From architecture to real people in the era who lives there (who appear in the books and those who don't).

[Magneto_X]

Ah! But back to cliches --- um.... Period romance heroines who are uber-competent in all the "manly arts", but are a mess when they put on their skirts. Can't we have some "feminine" heroines without them being wimps?

Eowyn (sp?) from Lord of the Rings. :D

[Reverend Smooth]

Eowyn (sp?) from Lord of the Rings. :DMax from Dark Angel. Deerskin in the book by that name from Robin McKinley.

[Sarah Beach]

Eowyn (sp?) from Lord of the Rings. :D

In the books, Eowyn is NOT a cliche, but a rather well-rounded character.

What I'm talking about are initation Eowyns.

[Red Jack]

But the Nazis are the *ultimate* (21st Century) villains.

Even today they still make great enemies in entertainment.

I dunno. I've always hated Klansmen and Confederates about the same as Nazis.

And it's only a cliche if it's badly written.

There's nothing new under heaven.

[scribe54321]

Too true, red jack, too true.

[scribe54321]

And yes, I agree with you, Corrina, better writing would or could or should make the romance cliche more palatable for the reading public.

I suppose if it is done well, and if it doesn't impede or weigh down the plot of a story with sappy sentimentality, then it would work well enough.

[Infra-Man]

But the Nazis are the *ultimate* (21st Century) villains.

Even today they still make great enemies in entertainment.

Agreed, they make great villains, but there have been a couple instances in books and movies when a character is said to have had a dark past and I've been able to call it.

EDIT: Lemme clarify -- Nazis aren't the cliche, it's situations in which a character with a dark past winds up being a Nazi that are cliche.

Another cliche: The character is a horrible drunk/drug addict who lives in squalor, but is also sublime yet undiscovered artist/writer.

[Michael P]

Another cliche: The character is a horrible drunk/drug addict who lives in squalor, but is also sublime yet undiscovered artist/writer.

Ha! The good ol' "starving artist" cliche. Yeah, if you're living in your own filth, there's probably a reason, and it's probably not because the world doesn't appreciate your genius.

[Buzz Dixon]

Ha! The good ol' "starving artist" cliche. Yeah, if you're living in your own filth, there's probably a reason, and it's probably not because the world doesn't appreciate your genius.Like Charles Bukowski or William S. Burroughs or Jack Kerouac?

[Infra-Man]

Like Charles Bukowski or William S. Burroughs or Jack Kerouac?

To be fair, though, for every Bukowski, there's dozens of dirty old men who've worked at post offices, get bloody drunk, but can't write like Bukowski. For every Burroughs, there's a dozen junkies without any of the talent. For every Kerouac, there's plenty of other wanderers and who have no claim to the spirit of Paradise or Duluoz.

That said, I actually think if Charles Schulz wrote Pigpen as a struggling, undiscovered artist, that would've been a laugh riot.

[Reverend Smooth]

Ha! The good ol' "starving artist" cliche. Yeah, if you're living in your own filth, there's probably a reason, and it's probably not because the world doesn't appreciate your genius.I've said it in these forums before, but I feel compelled to bring it up again because of a statement like this.

I have been homeless at several different points in my life, actually, and have had to live in filth.

And I am quite sure that an IQ of 180ish qualifies as genius.

I didn't become an artist to be appreciated by the world. I did it because it's the only way that I could pay my bills, because college was not an option and after a while, neither was working outside the home.

The reason? My abusive mother kicked me out when I was sixteen. There was no work in my hometown. If you look up Moncton on wikipedia, it actually mentions the staggering economic depression in the early and mid nineties.

I had no family who gave a damn. They were fundies and they decided that the devil had possessed me.

Before that, I was a genius kid with good grades and a chance at scholarships. I ended up a high-school dropout for two years in a row (one because I had major surgery while I was homeless and could not physically walk miles to school on a reconstructed leg that required weeks of relearning how to walk and months of physio).

I went back and limped through school, and got shit from the principal and teachers about being a homeless kid because I 'wanted to be a failure'. I was failing because I wasn't eating for weeks at a time. I sent art to conventions and made pocket change that way. $250 in welfare is not enough to live on.

I didn't get my scholarship. It's taken me over a decade of freelancing to get to where I am. The only skill I had was art and surviving as best I could.

So yeah, it's a cliche. But think about the people in real life that you just dissed. My story is hardly unique and I did not do ANYTHING to deserve it. Not one drug. Not one cigarette. I have never even been drunk. No prescription med abuse. Nothing.

Edit: The irony of it all is that part of what got me labeled a sinner is that I read such evil things as comics and fantasy novels and I would not give them up. And now I'm working in the industry.

[scribe54321]

Reverend, I think my respect for you has increased a lot because of what you've said. You've got more than plenty of inner strength and fortitude, and that I can definitely respect.

[Reverend Smooth]

Reverend, I think my respect for you has increased a lot because of what you've said. You've got more than plenty of inner strength and fortitude, and that I can definitely respect.Thank you. I feel kind of embarrassed, if anything, but it really drives me nuts to see the homeless spoken of like they're trash. ^^;;;

[scribe54321]

It's a very sad state of affairs but I'm afraid the homeless will always be a vilified part of society. If and until we as a collective whole will finally no longer simply stand idly by and no longer tolerate the needless suffering of people sick and dying in the streets, then nothing will be done about it.

The problem is, governments and multi-national corporations simply don't want to do anything about homelessness because there is no money to be made from the homeless, so the social ill is ignored by them.

[Reverend Smooth]

The problem is, governments and multi-national corporations simply don't want to do anything about homelessness because there is no money to be made from the homeless, so the social ill is ignored by them.Pretty much. :/

Some of those experiences have gone into Hollow, so maybe that particular character might help change some minds, I dunno.

[scribe54321]

Anything in this world is possible.

[Adam C]

Ha! The good ol' "starving artist" cliche. Yeah, if you're living in your own filth, there's probably a reason, and it's probably not because the world doesn't appreciate your genius.

Maybe, though to add some second-hand information to Reverend Smooth's very moving and personal perspective there's also the issue of whether a creative type can get their works recognized or sold. They may not have a publisher/gallery/agent willing to take it up (Henry Miller, at least in terms of an American publisher for his work until the 1960s), it may not sell (Van Gogh), or it may be so out of step with tastes that it does not catch on quickly (Bukowski) or in their lifetime (Van Gogh). So I think your statement tends to simplify the issue to a certain degree. I just picked up an interesting short story collection called Reality Machine by a Saskatchewan writer named Cliff Burns. He writes weird stuff in the mode of Burroughs, Ballard, Vonnegut, and PKD that he's self-published because none of it fits in with the "realist" literature favoured by Saskatchewan publishers like Thistledown Press.

Granted I will agree that the image of starving artist is over-romanticized and ridiculous. Even without having lived through such an experience (thank god) I fail to see how there's anything romantic about living in poverty.

[Shisho]

I really wonder how the romance cliche could be reworked or perhaps rediscovered in literature without making it seem overly used and trite.
I mean, in terms of making it realistic to readers.

I know that in most stories, there seems to be a guy or a gal, who eventually falls for a guy or a girl and the ways it ends up to that can run the entire spectrum, from slowly paced and boring to completely smarmy, tacky and perverse.

I'd actually like to see the opposite. I wish there were more series-type stories where the two main characters are a guy and a girl, and they *don't* eventually fall for each other. It seems like some writers just feel obligated to put it in there, so they get lazy about it and then it becomes ho-hum. I see it in books, TV, and movies all the time. Maybe it's because I've always been a tomboy and many of my close friends are guys, but I'd love to see more stories about that kind of friendship. A lot of the time, there's a different dynamic between a guy/girl friendship than a girl/girl or guy/guy friendship.

[Reverend Smooth]

Granted I will agree that the image of starving artist is over-romanticized and ridiculous. Even without having lived through such an experience (thank god) I fail to see how there's anything romantic about living in poverty.It is. I want to see some moron try to romanticise puking blood while slogging through making arts for weeks in a 100-degree uninsulated house with no AC and no working plumbing (at ALL) and then not getting paid for it and dealing with the financial consequences of three weeks' lost pay. (This was a few years ago, not recently, thank god.)

I'm glad that I'm an artist now, but I've hated it for most of my professional life. There's nothing inspiring or 'artistic' or 'fulfilling' about living in poverty.

Anyway, I shuddup now. Sorry for the rant.

[Infra-Man]

I'd actually like to see the opposite. I wish there were more series-type stories where the two main characters are a guy and a girl, and they *don't* eventually fall for each other.

That would be interesting, especially in the way it would play on people's expectations.



Actually, just to revisit an aspect of the struggling, undiscovered artist in works of fiction, why is there a tendency for some writers or filmmakers to romanticize poverty or homelessness in their work when it's pretty obvious (especially given what Reverend Smooth recounted about her experiences) that poverty and homelessness are really difficult situations in people's lives?

[Buzz Dixon]

Anything in this world is possible.Really? Show me a cubic meter of pure plutonium. :D

[Infra-Man]

Really? Show me a cubic meter of pure plutonium. :D

You trying to power up the flux capacitor?

[Radical]

That example kind of reminds me of the way Aesop's Fables would moralize in the stories about different social ills and whatnot.

Same for the endings of cartoons.

[Radical]

I'd actually like to see the opposite. I wish there were more series-type stories where the two main characters are a guy and a girl, and they *don't* eventually fall for each other.

I think they should reveal that one of them's gay.

[Adam C]

Actually, just to revisit an aspect of the struggling, undiscovered artist in works of fiction, why is there a tendency for some writers or filmmakers to romanticize poverty or homelessness in their work when it's pretty obvious (especially given what Reverend Smooth recounted about her experiences) that poverty and homelessness are really difficult situations in people's lives?

My guess is because it's a cute and easy myth that appeals to people's sympathy for the underdog, and possibly creative types' own fantasies about themselves.

[depizan]

The thing about most literary cliches is that they're only annoying if you notice them. The problem is, a lot of writers aren't good enough to make their stories not seem cliched.
Though, there are a few cliches that I defy any author to use without people noticing in irritation. I think the worst to me is this: in a mystery novel with a female detective, the (or a) man she finds attractive will invariably be the bad guy. Ick. Just...ick.

[Corrina]

You need to read "Naked in Death" by JD Robb. :)

[Larry Dixon]

It's been observed that Philip K Dick wrote nothing BUT scifi cliches, and delighted in it; what counts is that he did it so damned WELL.

[JamesRitcheyIII]

It's been observed that Philip K Dick wrote nothing BUT scifi cliches, and delighted in it; what counts is that he did it so damned WELL.

Preachin' to the Choir, Bub! My biggest single influence (The nobody said obnoxiously)!

He's a textbook example of the (okay--my) belief that no matter how trite a premise/plot is, if you develop characters who act like real (often emotionally-challenged) people, you can put them in any situation, anywhere, and you'll have a piece of literature. His expression of technology as a reagent on the human psyche, focus on inner, emotional space, and the nature of reality have parallels that are few and far between ever in fiction. Borges, Alain Robbe-Grillet, Steinbeck, Kerouac, Hesse, Lucius Shepard and (William S.) Burroughs come to mind as people who have moved me, or 'zoiked' me half as much as Phil, for high concept and mature characterization. Doesn't hurt that Dick was funny as hell--like a Vonnegut for very smart people.:D

[gianluca790]

I'd actually like to see the opposite. I wish there were more series-type stories where the two main characters are a guy and a girl, and they *don't* eventually fall for each other.

Please stop trying to destroy people's fantasies. For some people, it is the only thing worth living for.:evilangry

It seems like some writers just feel obligated to put it in there, so they get lazy about it and then it becomes ho-hum. I see it in books, TV, and movies all the time. Maybe it's because I've always been a tomboy and many of my close friends are guys, but I'd love to see more stories about that kind of friendship. A lot of the time, there's a different dynamic between a guy/girl friendship than a girl/girl or guy/guy friendship.

Most guys grow up thinking that, if a girl likes sports, she must be a lesbian. In the world of traditionalist male patriarchy, especially in the Christian West, a woman's job is to provide the soldiers for the army, if you catch my meaning.

[Buzz Dixon]

re Philip K. Dick:He's a textbook example of the (okay--my) belief that no matter how trite a premise/plot is, if you develop characters who act like real (often emotionally-challenged) people, you can put them in any situation, anywhere, and you'll have a piece of literature. His expression of technology as a reagent on the human psyche, focus on inner, emotional space, and the nature of reality have parallels that are few and far between ever in fiction. Borges, Alain Robbe-Grillet, Steinbeck, Kerouac, Hesse, Lucius Shepard and (William S.) Burroughs come to mind as people who have moved me, or 'zoiked' me half as much as Phil, for high concept and mature characterization. Doesn't hurt that Dick was funny as hell--like a Vonnegut for very smart people.:DThe opening to DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP? (turned inside out but still brilliantly adapted as BLADE RUNNER) has Decker and his wife arguing about where she should set the dial on her mood machine that day. Dick melds two cliches -- sci-fi dehumanizing technology and LOCKHORN-esque domestic squabbles -- into something absolutely brilliant that manages to be funny and chilling at the same time.

He was arguably the best novelist to work in the sci-fi salt mines.

[Reverend Smooth]

Maybe he was old enough and perceptive enough to realise that, after a few decades, real life turns into science fiction-- and so science fiction then turns into real life? :3

[Justin Carr]

If we're talking literary fiction as a tanget in this thread, I oughta pop in these excerpts from an article Nick Hornby did last year:



Amen, brutha.

I agree completely. Over ten years ago, my mother got me Mists of Avalon because "it seems like the type of book you might like." Ten years later, I'm STILL trying to finish. I just can't get into it. Which is odd, because normally I might like this type of fiction. I'll pick it up, read a few dozen pages in the time it would take me to finish another novel, put it down, go read other stuff, months later pick it up, read a few dozen pages, etc, etc, etc. I will finish it eventually, but if I'm having this much trouble with this novel, I don't think I'll be reading the other two in the series. It is a bit frustrating though when I hear or read people talking glowingly about it. Makes me wonder why I can't seem to 'get it.'

As for the cliche I dislike the most... Where in romance novels, near the beginning, the male hero for all tends and purposes forces himself on the heroine but it's okay, because darn if he isn't handsome and virile and he made her orgasm and by the end of the book, they realize that it's alright because they love each other and get married and, by the way, do you have the directions to Stockholm? Honey, that was rape, not romance. Pirate novels are the worse at this. Raping the girl within the first 50 pages, but it okay because we have another 350 pages to redeem the act. *groan*

[Reverend Smooth]

Anne Mccaffrey writes this stuff in her Pern novels, too. Dragonflight and Dragonquest both, in particular.

[Corrina]

Not all romances are like that. It's a pretty varied genre, with the 'alpha male who knows best' only being a small section--though it was more popular many years ago. As society has allowed women to take greater charge of their own sexuality, the inclusion of a "oh, she can't help it" plot point becomes less and less, as it was originally included because women weren't supposed to go out and get sex on their own. That would make them a bad girl or a slut. But if the romance has the guy giving them no choice, then they can enjoy it.

I know it sounds ass-backwards but remember, this is a fantasy. It by no means reflects the reality of what women want. What it reflects is women who are so repressed about sexuality that they have to read something about sex which gives the heroine no choice but to explore her sexuality.

And, as I said, that's getting less and less nowadays. Romances have a basic formula, as do mysteries, but as mysteries range from cops to bleak private eyes to historicals to cozies and amateur detectives, romances have a similar range.

It's pretty easy to find kick-ass heroines in romance. Easier, I think, than in science fiction or mystery. Certainly easier than in mainstream superhero comics. ;)

Though I have to say I'm sick of the external paranormal compulsion to have sex in both romance and SF lately. I blame Laurell K. Hamilton for that one. And whoever is buying lots of her badly written sex scenes.

[scribe54321]

Yeah, as I had stated previously, I could not get through any of Laurell K. Hamilton's novels because of how badly the plots lagged and how corny and dull the characters were. If anyone were to suggest her novels, I would immediately say, "I'm sorry but I'll take Sleep-EZ-D if I need to have a snooze. At least I won't be plagued by bad memories of Laurell K. Hamilton's writing that way."

[Reverend Smooth]

Though I have to say I'm sick of the external paranormal compulsion to have sex in both romance and SF lately.
I think it's fine as long as it's well-written. But people get weird about sex-- they often write everything else ok, but then they get to the sex and they suck.

I don't get it; it's just a pleasurable bodily function, like eating. But descriptions of eating aren't usually cheesy. (Unless they're eating it, anyway.)

[Night Swordsman]

Anne Mccaffrey writes this stuff in her Pern novels, too. Dragonflight and Dragonquest both, in particular.

I much prefered her Harper Hall trilogy instead. Thou obviously aimed at a younger audience,she didn't talk down to them either,and put alot of thought into those books.

[Reverend Smooth]

I much prefered her Harper Hall trilogy instead. Thou obviously aimed at a younger audience,she didn't talk down to them either,and put alot of thought into those books.Mostly, yeah.

[Night Swordsman]

Mostly, yeah.

I agree..i thought by the end of Dragon Drums it was lagging alot,but i felt more emotion for the characters in these books than i felt in either Dragon Flight or DragonQuest. Thankfully,i did enjoy the White Dragon alot.

Also would like to add i have NOT read any of Ms. Hamiltons books,but did read the first few issues of the comic adaptation or Anita Blake,Guilty Pleasures(i really do like Brett Booths artwork),but storywise it felt at best..average. I enjoy the character,but the people Anita interacts with feel more like Props than characters,things to move the story along rather than give them some human(or other,in this case) emotions to feel about. They feel stiff and lifeless,no pun intended. Really.

Are the BOOKS like that,and so,are they worth reading?

[Corrina]

I loved the series so much after reading one of them, I promptly ordered everything available from Amazon. I don't do that very often.

Laughing Corpse is my favorite--it seemed to be the perfect blend of all the genres she was working with (Mystery, horror, a little romance) and it has a very noir ending. But Anita the character seemed to devolve as the series went on, becoming less interesting and less three-dimensional. And now it's just a sex-fest with no discernable plot and everyone who disagrees with Anita is always wrong. I might be able to take that, if the sex was good, but mostly, it's pretty damn laughable.

I like to say not only did the series train wreck, it went off the cliff, sunk to the depths of the water and drowned. I've never seen a writer do such a spectacular flame-out before. I've seen writers in a series not able to sustain that series because they're run out of good character ideas but that happens. LKH, though, LKH went from being a supernatural Robert B. Parker to bad fanfiction.

[depizan]

As for the cliche I dislike the most... Where in romance novels, near the beginning, the male hero for all tends and purposes forces himself on the heroine but it's okay, because darn if he isn't handsome and virile and he made her orgasm...

You'll be happy to know that that's all but disappeared from romance fiction. These days, even if he (or she) tricked the other into marrying them, they aren't going to be getting busy for some time. And it isn't going to be rape when they do.

That's the good news. The bad news is that some women still don't see the problem with that in fiction. The creepiest experience I've had as a writer was when I went to the informal writers group my criminal law professor (and romance novelist, though, strangely, she couldn't seem to get pubished) had. I've never been more scared of my own gender. Most of the members were writing romance (which I don't), but all but one of them wrote the "me ape, you woman, ugh" kind of romance. And the one who didn't, they criticized the heck out of for having the guy, who was surveying his domain, consider the landscape attractive. Men, according to them, aren't capable of finding anything attractive, they're just walking blobs of muscle and dick. Yeeeeuch.

[Infra-Man]

Men, according to them, aren't capable of finding anything attractive, they're just walking blobs of muscle and dick. Yeeeeuch.

I now have the strangest image in my head... *shivers*

[Corrina]

Oh, dear.

You need RWA:

https://www.rwanational.org/eweb/StartPage.aspx

Nicest and smartest bunch of women I've ever found, and I haven't been big on joining any group that involves large numbers of women. (For instance, the PTO/PTA? They scare me...)

But these ladies are cool. And they like men. Quite a lot.

[Reverend Smooth]

And they like men. Quite a lot.Men are great.

Especially with each other.

...Was that my out loud voice?

[Larry Dixon]

Preachin' to the Choir, Bub! My biggest single influence (The nobody said obnoxiously)!

James, what you ain't no no how is no nobody, youse.
-thumbs up-

Rev:
Men are great.
Everybody should own at least one.