Parenting Thread: Are We Cruel?

[Typo Lad]

Hey.

So I got a call from Tot's teacher today. As some of you know, Tot is in Yeshiva Pre-School. She's in what would be kindergarten in any other school, but they have a Pre-1 instead of Pre-k.

Nothing was "wrong", she said, but she wanted to call because she was concerned with Tot's Kreiyah (reading in Hebrew).

I so knew this was coming.

As some of you may have noticed, I have a bit of dyslexia (and a heck of a lot of dyscalculia, but that's a whole 'nother story). I know it's not genetic, but I know it well enough to recognize certain signs. She also is very energetic (not ADD) and has a strong opinion.

Basically, when it comes to school, she mixes our worst habits.

Complicating the matter, of course, is the fact that she's learning not one, but two languages. I'm actually not happy with the lesser focus on English. She's getting it, but all her homework has been Ivrit(Hebrew). They send home her classwork, which is English (all writing, no reading) but I don't feel that's enough.

We've decided that she's of an age where school needs to be her focus and are unplugging the TV during the week. I'm going to look into books and stuff we can do at home and am getting flashcashcards and stuff.

I feel cruel, but I also think we've been spoiling her till now.

Can anyone suggest any good reading primers?

[Slam_Bradley]

We've decided that she's of an age where school needs to be her focus and are unplugging the TV during the week. I'm going to look into books and stuff we can do at home and am getting flashcashcards and stuff.

I feel cruel, but I also think we've been spoiling her till now.

Can anyone suggest any good reading primers?


I don't think you're cruel. Just make sure that Tot doesn't see this as a punishment. You don't want her to decide she hates school, because it's causing the TV to be taken away.

Connor has been having having issues with learning his alphabet (recognizing the letters). We're trying to decide if it's laziness, or what, as both his regular teacher and his letter teacher readily admit that his vocabulary is huge for a 5 year old, and he uses all the words correctly.

As insipid as they are, I pulled out the big Dick and Jane book day before yesterday, and within a couple of minutes he was reading the first story and sounding out the words.

Sometimes the old ways work best.

[Matt]

The range of reading primers/books available is unbelievably immense and it would be pointless to recommend any because it really is a matter of experimenting to find out which your child responds to the best.

But the best way to get your child to enjoy reading while developing their skill? Find a children's book the child enjoys and have them read it to you.

[Typo Lad]

My mom managed to get me reading with Dick and Jane.

Slam, Tot's the same way. Mind-bogglong vocabulary but reading is another thing entirely.

My mom's picking up some Dr. Suess books in Hebrew ("Echad Dag, Shtei Dag" and I'm going to get a few other English ones. Maybe "Go dog go". 'Are you my mother" is a wash because she knows it by heart.

[Slam_Bradley]

My mom managed to get me reading with Dick and Jane.

Slam, Tot's the same way. Mind-bogglong vocabulary but reading is another thing entirely.

My mom's picking up some Dr. Suess books in Hebrew ("Echad Dag, Shtei Dag" and I'm going to get a few other English ones. Maybe "Go dog go". 'Are you my mother" is a wash because she knows it by heart.

"Go Dog Go" was the first book that Nathan read on his own. He was a big show-off and had to take it to school to read to his kindergarten class. It's a good book for it. Easy words and a nice meter.

[phoenixrising]

I don't think you're being cruel at all, Typo. I think a lot of parents should be more willing to do what you are to help their kids develop better.

I remember that my younger brother had many problems learning to read due to many of the issues you've described with Tot (energetic, distractable). I know it sounds silly, but he and I both learned to read/perfected our reading with Hooked on Phonics. After that, my mom made it a point to, like Matt said, get books she knew he'd enjoy. In his case, we bought those Star Wars books for kids and - even though they were "chapter books" - we slowly made our way through them - sometimes just a short chapter an evening - and he felt like he accomplished something without reading "dumb little kid books".

[Typo Lad]

"Go Dog Go" was the first book that Nathan read on his own. He was a big show-off and had to take it to school to read to his kindergarten class. It's a good book for it. Easy words and a nice meter.
Sign I'm a big nerd: I hate how they cut pages from "Go Dog Go". They also shortened "Are you My Mother" with the most recent edition.

[Mac Danny]

The range of reading primers/books available is unbelievably immense and it would be pointless to recommend any because it really is a matter of experimenting to find out which your child responds to the best.

But the best way to get your child to enjoy reading while developing their skill? Find a children's book the child enjoys and have them read it to you.

Absolutely. If you can find the same book in Hebrew and English it might help the translation. She's young enough where her mind is very adaptable to different languages. reading along with a parent is the best way to get your kid to read and write better.

Scholastic Books sells books at a big discount, and her school may already be involved in a Scholastic book program. If they are you can buy 1 book a month for 99 cents.

Going into first grade, children should have an understanding of reading and writing even though they may not be perfect at it.

I don't know if it's the same in Hebrew, but when my wife grades her first grade spelling, the kids will get points if the word is spelled closely to the actual word. If the spell dog as "dawg" that is not necessarily wrong at a young age. getting them comfortable with reading and writing is the important thing.

Bottom line, Read, a LOT with your Tot.

[Typo Lad]

Pho:

Phonetic reading isn't the worst idea. My folks got me to read with what they call "pattern reading". Basically I memorized roots and prefixes and suffixes. I didn't learn to properly 'read' until a teacher handed me the Cam Jansen books. After that I read all our old Doctor Doolittle's, Hardy Boys, and Tom Swifts, I discovered comics.

Hmmm. I wonder if teaching her to read with the Justice League Unlimted Co,ics will be odd...

You know, I think I'm going to pick up "Monster Sociuety of Evil" tonight.

[Typo Lad]

Anyone have anything positive to say about any of those "Reader Rabbit" programs?

[Winslow]

Reading can be a developmental skill. I'll differ to Gilda, but you might want to PM her.

My advice: Don't worry about it - she'll eventually figure it out. Don't take away TV unless she has been unfaithful with her assignments - but certainly limit it.

[Typo Lad]

The TV's been on the verge of being banned for a while now due to willfull behavior.

I don't plan on banning it entirely. I just think she's focusing too much on it. Lately she's been quoting commercials at me. The other day she came in while I was cooking and said "Daddy, you have to call 1-800 whatever RIGHT NOW! The man on the TV said so!"

[Winslow]

Oh, OK . .yeah get rid of it then.

My kids have always been limited to one hour of electronic time a day: TV, video games AND computer (i.e. one hour total for all three).

EDIT: Still talk to Gilda, I thought she was an expert on child development specifically re reading.

[Gilda Dent]

Ah, emergent literacy. Finally, a thread in which my area of expertise is actually useful.

Formal instruction using primers really isn't necessary. There are reading systems available that have been leveled progressively, and they are effective, but they aren't necessary.

Pick out some books that are at the appropriate reading level and read them together.

There are three basic ways to do shared reading:

1. You read to her. With an emergent reader, the most effective way to do this is to position the two of you so that both of you can see the book the whole time and read while running your finger under the words as you read them. If feasible, have her hold the book while you read it.

You'll do this primarily with a book that would be too difficult for her or with a book that's new and is likely to have a lot of words she won't understand.

2. She reads to you. This would be done with a book that is at her instructional level (roughly, where she knows about 90-95% of the words) or with a book that you've read to her enough times that she's memorized it. It's OK for her to read from rote memorization--this is one of the steps most good readers go through.

3. Partner reading. This is the two of you reading together. You can do this as formal instruction by reading a line or a paragraph to her and then having her read it back to you, running your finger (which my first graders knew as their "reading finger") under the words and having her do the same.

This type of shared reading can be simulated using certain reading software. My favorite was a series by Broderbund called Living Books, though they aren't made any longer. They could be a very powerful tool for emergent readers when used correctly, and a waste of time when not.

If you still want some progressively leveled readers, there are several good programs available, but they're basically designed to give teachers and tutors the tools to simulate the effect of parents reading to children.

You can supplement with phonics and sight word instruction if you're looking for a comprehensive program, but the one most important element of reading instruction is to spend a lot of time reading.

And no, you're not being cruel.

[Typo Lad]

Jim MacQuarrie's shipping me back the pink iMac that used to be in Daphna's room. I plan on loading it with Reader Rabit and Math Blaster and the like.

That'll replace TV nicely.

[Gilda Dent]

My mom managed to get me reading with Dick and Jane.

Slam, Tot's the same way. Mind-bogglong vocabulary but reading is another thing entirely.

My mom's picking up some Dr. Suess books in Hebrew ("Echad Dag, Shtei Dag" and I'm going to get a few other English ones. Maybe "Go dog go". 'Are you my mother" is a wash because she knows it by heart.

Pardon me for saying so, but Dick and Jane sucks and instruction using that type of primer can actually be counterproductive. If the goal is literacy, the books chosen must have meaningful content and not exist solely for the purpose of segregated reading instruction.

[Typo Lad]

Pardon me for saying so, but Dick and Jane sucks and instruction using that type of primer can actually be counterproductive. If the goal is literacy, the books chosen must have meaningful content and not exist solely for the purpose of segregated reading instruction.
You are pardoned. I trust your judgment, obviously.

Besides, Dick and Jane got me reading.. Suess kept me reading.

[Tages]

My mom managed to get me reading with Dick and Jane.

Slam, Tot's the same way. Mind-bogglong vocabulary but reading is another thing entirely.

My mom's picking up some Dr. Suess books in Hebrew ("Echad Dag, Shtei Dag"

Forgive me for asking, but is there a Hebrew version of "Green Eggs and Ham?"

Going to Hell, I know.

[Gilda Dent]

You are pardoned. I trust your judgment, obviously.

Besides, Dick and Jane got me reading.. Suess kept me reading.

Well, it can work, it just isn't very effective. It's like round-robin reading; it works, it just works at a very low efficiency compared to other methods.

[Clint Barton]

Pretty sure you're not a cruel parent. I back you 100%.

Try this question on for size:

"Does/Has God or g-d ever punished you (yes, YOU whoever reads this) unjustly?

Think about it.

I have been.

[Winslow]

Usagi Yojimbo didnt teach my son to read, but it got him to enjoy reading.

Gilda's suggestion to read to tot is the best I can think of. It does so much for them . . including giving them the desire to read. I set aside time every night before bed. I read to the kids up through 2004 . . . so when my daughter was 11. We plowed through Narnia, Little House on the Prairie series, and several comics.

[Slam_Bradley]

Usagi Yojimbo didnt teach my son to read, but it got him to enjoy reading.

Gilda's suggestion to read to tot is the best I can think of. It does so much for them . . including giving them the desire to read. I set aside time every night before bed. I read to the kids up through 2004 . . . so when my daughter was 11. We plowed through Narnia, Little House on the Prairie series, and several comics.

We still read to Nathan. He's 11 and we're reading Around The World in 80 Days. I plan to continue until he wants to stop.

Connor is loving the Time Warp Trio after we ran out of Junie B. Jones books.

[Erebus]

Taking away some tv time is great. I remember when I was about 9 years old, my family moved to another house, and I wouldn't have any tv for a year. At first, I wanted to scream, but eventually I became a major bibliophile, and hardly ever watched tv. I wouldn't recommend taking away all her tv privileges, but its good you cut down.

[Gilda Dent]

Usagi Yojimbo didnt teach my son to read, but it got him to enjoy reading.

Gilda's suggestion to read to tot is the best I can think of. It does so much for them . . including giving them the desire to read. I set aside time every night before bed. I read to the kids up through 2004 . . . so when my daughter was 11. We plowed through Narnia, Little House on the Prairie series, and several comics.

It's never too early to read to your kids. Emily and I both read to Little Dent every day, and she has several baby books as toys. It's possible, I suppose, for a child to be too old to read with, but I'm not sure where that age comes. 11 certainly isn't too old.

It's a great social activity, too.

[Winslow]

It's never too early to read to your kids. Emily and I both read to Little Dent every day, and she has several baby books as toys. It's possible, I suppose, for a child to be too old to read with, but I'm not sure where that age comes. 11 certainly isn't too old.

It's a great social activity, too.

Yeah, it depends on the kid. I now feel a little guilty for stopping before my son was ready to stop . . he still sometimes asks me to read to him (he's 11 now).

As for social activity, I used to read to my wife . . . and we'd enjoy a good novel together, although it's been awhile since I did that too.

Sometimes on long car trips I'll read. But it can be difficult to talk for a long time over the engine and highway noise.

[Jayna]

Anyone have anything positive to say about any of those "Reader Rabbit" programs?


We got the entire Reader Rabbit series for Catheryn when she was 4. She adored them, and was reading when she started preschool. She now is in the eighth grade & tests off the scale for reading level as it only goes to a 12.5 grade level on the standard tests.

[K'Nort]

My mother read to us all the time. (I finally realized just a couple years ago that the constant re-reading of The Hobbit is probably the source of my arachnaphobia.) And she used flash cards. They're great.

Tot's too young for this now, but my mother would read to us while my brother and I did the dishes every night. Not least to supervise. It was a very positive experience.

[StoneGold]

NO WIRE HANGERS!!!!


See there's loads of cruelness you can heap on, ya big sissy.

[Rallura]

Something that helped with MisT, besides the things that Gilda pointed out, was writing. Both her writing, and her dictating stories to her grandfather and him writing them down then reading them back to her.

[Gilda Dent]

Something that helped with MisT, besides the things that Gilda pointed out, was writing. Both her writing, and her dictating stories to her grandfather and him writing them down then reading them back to her.

Yep, writing, both in reaction to what she's read and to compose her own stories is a big help.

It's a good way to practice writing skills, as well as to reinforce what she gets from her reading activities.

Unless you're specifically teaching grammar, spelling, and mechanics, it's best to let her be creative so that the writing can flow, and not worry about technical matters until a bit later on, or to teach those things as a separate lesson, at least at this stage. Too much emphasis on mechanics and spelling can interfere with the child being able to express herself clearly and fluently.

[Rallura]

Yep, writing, both in reaction to what she's read and to compose her own stories is a big help.

It's a good way to practice writing skills, as well as to reinforce what she gets from her reading activities.

Unless you're specifically teaching grammar, spelling, and mechanics, it's best to let her be creative so that the writing can flow, and not worry about technical matters until a bit later on, or to teach those things as a separate lesson, at least at this stage. Too much emphasis on mechanics and spelling can interfere with the child being able to express herself clearly and fluently.

Exactly Gilda.

Dad (he did it with me when I was little too) used to grab a coloring book, and ask what was happening on the page, then write everything down, then read it back to make sure everything was the way we wanted it to be.

And those writing tablets with half lines and half a blank page for drawing a picture, are great at that age.

[Gilda Dent]

Exactly Gilda.

Dad (he did it with me when I was little too) used to grab a coloring book, and ask what was happening on the page, then write everything down, then read it back to make sure everything was the way we wanted it to be.

And those writing tablets with half lines and half a blank page for drawing a picture, are great at that age.

That they are. When a child is drawing a picture and writing a story to match it or vice versa, she's reinforcing her understanding of the relationship between the pictures and the text on the pages of the books she's reading.

There is a strong symbiotic relationship between reading and writing.

[Rallura]

That they are. When a child is drawing a picture and writing a story to match it or vice versa, she's reinforcing her understanding of the relationship between the pictures and the text on the pages of the books she's reading.

There is a strong symbiotic relationship between reading and writing.

Oh! I just thought of something. MisT had a computer program that was much the same thing, combining pictures and words to make a story. Storybook Weaver. She loved it. I still have it here somewhere. I will look, and if it runs on a mac, I can send it to you Morts, if you want it. I am going to assume MisT wouldn't mind, she liked Tot.

[LtMarvel]

Well, my kid is in the equivalent grade. I order her the Johnny DC books that are based on the shows we both really like (JLU, TT, LoSH, and even Krypto).

Cartoon writer Mo Williems has a wonderful book "Don't Let the Pigeon Drive the Bus" that is about as fun of read as anything I've come across. Check it out from the library or read it to her at a local book store. (My kid loves the bookstore because she can go get any book and one parent will read it to her. You might even get additional audience members.)

If there is a series that she really loves from TV (Dora the Explorer in my house), you can probably do worse.

My kid's teacher, btw, said not to slide your finger under the words, but rather to touch each word without sliding. This helps the kid recogonize seperation of words.

We had our long discussion/cry sessions over willfulness here, too. Usually, we give our child the first opportunity to name her punishment. Most of our problems come from lack of sleep (missed nap on weekends, staying up too late away from home, etc.). Our kid knows that we are on her side, and it's our job to make sure she behaves properly.

I envy the bilingual education. Youngsters our kids' age actually have more neural pathways than adults. Research suggest that is why language is more easily learned by little ones... You use these pathways, you get to keep them; otherwise they are gone and are difficult to replace in adulthood.

Hope that helps.

[Gilda Dent]

My kid's teacher, btw, said not to slide your finger under the words, but rather to touch each word without sliding. This helps the kid recogonize seperation of words.

That it does, if you're trying to teach word identification skills with an emergent reader. The one disadvantage is that it slows your reading speed, which can lead to disjointed one-word-at-a-time reading.

Sliding works fine when you're working on fluency because it emphasizes that the words are part of a greater whole and should flow together when read.

It all depends on what the specific goal for the reading session is.

[zilch]

Give her a VCR tape and tell her when its full, her week's viewing is over. You aren't taking away her TV, you are just being more selective in what she watches, and when she watches it.

Lil SpongeTim taught himself to read, somehow, at age 3 1/2. We read to him every night, from Thomas the Tank Engine and he watched the tapes constantly. We even put on the closed captioning so he could read along.

[Spike-X]

when my wife grades her first grade spelling, the kids will get points if the word is spelled closely to the actual word. If the spell dog as "dawg" that is not necessarily wrong at a young age.

I disagree very, very, very, very, very, very strongly with this policy, and I believe it's the reason so many kids (and adults) these days are functionally illiterate.

getting them comfortable with reading and writing is the important thing.


I understand that, but it's also important that they learn that wrong isn't right, that near enough isn't always good enough. Otherwise we end up with an entire generation of kids who have great self-esteem and pride about knowing absolutely nothing.

[Mac Danny]

I disagree very, very, very, very, very, very strongly with this policy, and I believe it's the reason so many kids (and adults) these days are functionally illiterate.



I understand that, but it's also important that they learn that wrong isn't right, that near enough isn't always good enough. Otherwise we end up with an entire generation of kids who have great self-esteem and pride about knowing absolutely nothing.

That is the second half of first grade. She will srite the correct spelling next to thier word but not make them feel bad for getting the spelling wrong when they knew the right word. As the year progresses, correct spelling becomes more important.

Her kids have really become very prolific readers and writers. They have journals to write in and some are starting to read chapter books.

She can probably explain it better than me, but boy do we buy a lot of books for her classroom.

[Mac Danny]

I disagree very, very, very, very, very, very strongly with this policy, and I believe it's the reason so many kids (and adults) these days are functionally illiterate.


My poor spelling is due to Phonics. English isn't written how it sounds for the most part. Hooked on Phonics made me a poor speller.

[Tages]

English is written how it sounds for the most part

Yes, the word "English" is pronounced much as it's spelled.

Oh wait, you're talking about the language?

[Mac Danny]

Yes, the word "English" is pronounced much as it's spelled.

Oh wait, you're talking about the language?

No I was talking about Ing-glish

[Typo Lad]

Well, last night was fun.

There was some snuffling over TV and a lot of resistance to having to do the special homework her teacher sent home. She wanted to play with the flashcards as a memory game, but not read them. I confess I got a bit huffy and told her she was supposed to be reading, not guessing (This after a response to "what letter is this" was "That says Dora". It was "The" by the way).

Two things got positive responses:

1) Daphna keeps mixing up the Chet and Tet (examples (http://www.inner.org/hebleter/index.htm). Coincidently, there were what was studied when she was out for a solid week (Also interesting: I had/have the same issue with "p" and "b" when writing in non-cursive script). The annoying issue is that she'll get it right, then go to the next word and instantly forget which is which.

I took a word (Chait) and transcribed it, then tore the word in half (Chai -T). I then showed her the first half, then the second half and slowly moved them together. That worked. Thank you two-headed monster. It may be a long proccess, but if it works I'm going to keep doing that until she internalizes the word-making proccess.

2) Last night I read her the first five pages of The Complete Winnie the Poo. Above her level, but a fun substitute for TV and a chance to relax. I'm doing it in serial form, and that may help get her get excited about bed. We're going to read every night. If Poo works out well, I'll be getting some Suess for her to read with me and eventually the Amelia Bedeliah books and PJ Travers original Mary Poppins novels to be read to her.

On the topic of writing - she's actually quite down with the whole writing thing in English. I don't know if they've even begun writing in Ivrit. What's interesting is she can transcribe a word even if she doesn't know the meaning. She copies it. She knows the letters, she just doesn't parse them as a word.

I'm thinking of merging the Hebrew/English a bit by having her transcribe her Hebrew homework and read it as she's doing it. May copy the "two-headed monster" effect and help her write as well.

I tried to reassure Suzannah last night by telling her I was functionally illiterate in Hebrew for my entire school career until High School. I got by, but barely. Not too reassuring once I actually said it. Still, the fact is we can always go back to Hebrew if there's some kind of groundword now. I'm really more concerned about her English reading/writing.

Oh, and her spoken Hebrew/English/Spanish is pretty darn good. I assuage myself with that.

[Typo Lad]

English is written how it sounds for the most part.

I would like to disagree with that very much. If this was the case, my daughter's name would be "Dafna" instead of "Daphna", I would be watching my "wayt" instead of my weight, my wife would think I was "dum" instead of thinking me "dumb" and "iron" would be spelled "ieurn" (which isn't how it should be pronounced anyway, but that's a whole 'nother rant).

[Typo Lad]

Pretty sure you're not a cruel parent. I back you 100%.

Try this question on for size:

"Does/Has God or g-d ever punished you (yes, YOU whoever reads this) unjustly?

Think about it.

I have been.

Clint, I don't mean to sound rude, but what in the name of Arthur Curry does that have to do with the topic at hand?

[Joe Rice]

Gilda's already said much of what I could already say. It is, as of yet, not a worry. As it is a developmental skill, it doesn't appear at the same time for every child, and the appearance has nothing to do with intelligence.

From the beginning read for content and understanding as well as fluency. Inventive spelling is fine up till about third or fourth grade, depending on the skill of the child.

[Reverend Smooth]

I am dyslexic. I was also hyperlexic as a young child. I liked to read, however, because I'd been read to from a very young age, and I read in both french and english. (Enyclopedias. I cannot stress enough the benefits of reading with your kids.)

It took me until the sixth grade to write letters properly, however, and to this day they still swim in my vision. I could not speak english until the second grade, but my reading level was advanced and that helped me later on.

A bilingual upbringing has beneficial effects on developing brains by exercising different parts of them. I'd consider it a blessing and just figure out a way to read with the kid in both languages. If that sticks, she should turn out just fine.

I also suggest speed-reading techniques. It's easier to read by grabbing whole words and pieces of sentences than letter-by-letter, because words have certain looks to them even if letters start acting funny or reversing themselves. I was started on that very early, so I know that it can be done.

[Mac Danny]

I would like to disagree with that very much. If this was the case, my daughter's name would be "Dafna" instead of "Daphna", I would be watching my "wayt" instead of my weight, my wife would think I was "dum" instead of thinking me "dumb" and "iron" would be spelled "ieurn" (which isn't how it should be pronounced anyway, but that's a whole 'nother rant).

Yeah that was a typo typo. it should read Isn't I'll fix it.

[Gilda Dent]

To address a couple of things mentioned earlier:

English is about 50% consistently phonetic. The number is somewhat higher with a smaller vocabulary, and somewhat lower with a larger one, but about half the words we use follow phonetic rules consistently.

Because of this, neither phonics nor sight word instruction is the perfect method of teaching reading for all children. The research shows that about two thirds can learn with phonics alone, and will develop a good sight word vocabulary naturally through their reading. About two thirds can learn through sight word instruction and will develop phonemic awareness naturally. But neither system works well for all children, and instruction using both is better for nearly all children, even those capable of learning through one alone.

The most effective formal instruction system utilizes sight word instruction, phonics, phonemic awareness, and fluency training. This will hit the needs and strengths of nearly all of the students involved.