What should happen with 'flop' characters like the new Ant-man and White Tiger?

[SalazarSleaze2]

Those two books have been doing terrible numbers, and even now, their latest issues already came out and still not a thread for spoilers/reviews. (I think the spoiler thread for WHite Tiger's last issue, a month go, got only 2 replies, and I think the last Ant-man thread barely got two pages of responses with most of the messages being from basically 2 people)

Should Marvel simply put them in limbo or should these characters appear as supporting players somewhere else?

Is there enough fan-support to even have them as semi-regulars in other books?

White Tiger would of course be at home in the Daredevil comic (and I could see her showing up in something like Heroes For Hire or Spider-Woman) and Ant-Man could conceivably become a regular in one of the comedy books that Dan Slott puts out...maybe She-Hulk or a future incarnation of GLA?

[anthony!]

I don't read Ant-man, but could he not technically join up with the Mighty Avengers?

Consdering Wasp (and likely Hank Pym) will be making appearances, and that it looks as if Tony Stark will be head of SHIELD. Could be a solution.

But again, don't know cuz I don't read Ant-man.

[Shellhead]

Marvel used to be very effective at launching titles. They would carefully test out new characters, first with guest-shots in popular comics, than appearances in team-up books with popular characters like Spider-man. If all went well, a character would get a one-shot appearances in Marvel Spotlight or Marvel Premiere, monthly titles specifically designed to showcase new characters and/or new artists and writers.

In the 80's, Marvel shifted to the mini-series to introduce new characters. That was riskier, because if readers didn't get hooked by the cover of the first issue, the next three issues were going to sell like crap.

Today, Quesada just inflicts stuff on Marvel readers. A new monthly series like White Tiger appears with little marketing and no particular fanbase, and just quickly fails. Nobody was asking for the death of Scott Lang or the introduction of a new jerkish Ant-man, so it's unsurprising that those proved to be unpopular. Maybe Quesada is stuck on that catchphrase from Field of Dreams, but in reality, it takes a great creative team or at least a great idea to get fans to like something they weren't already interested in seeing.

[Nevets F]

I don't like the Ant-Man character at all, so I won't comment on him really, but White Tiger is really a great book, and while the numbers aren't great, they are WAY better than Ant-Man's.

I hope she turns up somewhere. She considers Luke Cage and Iron First her uncles, has hung out with Black Widow, and considers Daredevil her mentor, so she has connections that could lead the character somewhere.

PS - to the above poster, White Tiger is and always has been a six issue mini. :)

[SalazarSleaze2]

...White Tiger is really a great book, and while the numbers aren't great, they are WAY better than Ant-Man's.


http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/9907.html


123-IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #3-----------19,580 orders

126-WHITE TIGER #2 (Of 6)----------------19,042 orders

[niall mc cann]

What's the chance of a trade saving either?

Like She-Hulk?

[Shellhead]

PS - to the above poster, White Tiger is and always has been a six issue mini. :)

My mistake. The poster who started this thread seemed worried about White Tiger getting cancelled, so I assumed that it had been changed from a mini to a monthly.

[XPac]

If the whole 50 states Initiative comes to pass, there may be a greater need for heroes in terms of sheer number. So it's possibly they won't fall into complete limbo.

They may end up being protectors of Idaho or South Dakata or something... but at least they'd have some place.

Still, Ant-Man is a very easy character to fold into the Avengers if necessary. It would be a weird mix at first since he's not exactly super hero material... but that might be the fun of it.

[Eric_Carnaby]

Hopefully this repulsive (and repulsively lame) Ant-Man character is forever placed in comic book limbo.
(and isn't it ironic that some people that hate Wolverine as an Avenger cuz he "doesn't fit", would not have a problem with O'Grady? I have read posts from people who argue that Wolvie isn't "Avengers material" saying that O'Grady would be great as an Avenger)
His comic book flopping is a great start, and the next step is for him to just go away.

As for White Tiger, I'm meh on her.
She is inoffensive and could become a fixture in some other book like Daredevil.

[carabas]

Seriously, what did they expect?
Marvel currently is running not one but two or three 'continuity-changing events', one of which is crossing over into over 3/4ths of their output, and they expect a few new, unconnected, under-publicised books to do well? With no major superstar talent involved?

[agrich]

I only read the first issue of Ant-Man, but wasn't it always intended as kind of a joke? I didn't view it as "launching a new superhero" as much as simply a miniseries that played off the amusing idea of a loser SHIELD agent getting a costume.

As for White Tiger, well, I wonder how high the expectations could have been. Few noticed when the original White Tiger disappeared from comics, or got killed off, or anything. I doubt anyone expected the character or the book to be a huge hit.

[XPac]

I only read the first issue of Ant-Man, but wasn't it always intended as kind of a joke? I didn't view it as "launching a new superhero" as much as simply a miniseries that played off the amusing idea of a loser SHIELD agent getting a costume.

As for White Tiger, well, I wonder how high the expectations could have been. Few noticed when the original White Tiger disappeared from comics, or got killed off, or anything. I doubt anyone expected the character or the book to be a huge hit.

Yeah, I can't imagine anyone at Marvel thinking that the new Ant-Man would be the next Spider-Man of the MU. It's a quirky book about a minor character that I think it suppossed to be more funny than anything else.

Though I'm sure they wanted the book to do as well as possible, I can't imagine them having expectations too far beyond what they're getting.

For what it's worth... I like the book and the writer Kirkman. But I never thought it would do that well. And honestly I still believe it should have just been launced as a mini.

[StarsAndGarters]

I love the new Ant-Man, but I really don't expect anyone else to. Have no idea who White Tiger is and don't much care. I bet a lot of people feel that way about Ant-Man.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

I only read the first issue of Ant-Man, but wasn't it always intended as kind of a joke? I didn't view it as "launching a new superhero" as much as simply a miniseries that played off the amusing idea of a loser SHIELD agent getting a costume.



Irredeemable Ant-Man is an ongoing.
(But with the way it's selling, I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel quietly solicited the next few issues as a mini)

[Xanrn]

I like White Tiger.

She has a damm cool costume.

Bung her in New Avengers, its needs more Women.

[Shellhead]

Bung her in New Avengers, its needs more Women.

Is that you, Luke?

[XPac]

I like White Tiger.

She has a damm cool costume.

Bung her in New Avengers, its needs more Women.

If White Tiger fans are lucky, maybe she'll end up being Ronin.

[Shadow ES]

I'm really enjoying Ant-man, but I'm not real sure how long the premise can go without getting stale.

[Haunt]

I'm really enjoying Ant-man, but I'm not real sure how long the premise can go without getting stale.

what do you see as the premise?

[DoctorDoom]

I love the new Ant-Man, but I really don't expect anyone else to. Have no idea who White Tiger is and don't much care. I bet a lot of people feel that way about Ant-Man.
I sure do. I'm loving this new guy. Hilarious and a jerkwad at he same time.

[Haunt]

I sure do. I'm loving this new guy. Hilarious and a jerkwad at he same time.

aye. to answer the thread question, i think they should be placed on teams; maybe the same team. Speedball didn't do all that well as a solo property but proved to be an essential member of the New Warriors. i've never enjoyed an issue of 'Wolverine' but the character is fun to read about in a team environment. etc.

Doc Samson http://images.wikia.com/marveldatabase/images/3/3e/Doc_Samson_002.jpg

White Tiger http://images.comicbookresources.com/solicits/marvelcomics/200703/WHITET005.jpg

Ant-Man http://images.comicbookresources.com/cons/wizworldla2006/marvel/ANTMAN001002_col.jpg

need at least 3 others for a proper team imo.

[StarsAndGarters]

aye. to answer the thread question, i think they should be placed on teams; maybe the same team. Speedball didn't do all that well as a solo property but proved to be an essential member of the New Warriors. i've never enjoyed an issue of 'Wolverine' but the character is fun to read about in a team environment. etc.

You might be on to something. I would read a book with Doc Samson and Ant-Man in it.

[StoneGold]

You might be on to something. I would read a book with Doc Samson and Ant-Man in it.

Hank Pym would be better in that book. Just because it would be awesome to have a book with Marvel's greatest headshrinker and superherodom's greatest loony tune.

[XPac]

You might be on to something. I would read a book with Doc Samson and Ant-Man in it.

Hmmm... how about a team consisting of Ant-Man, Doc Samson, Clor, and maybe Jim Rhondes in his ONE Sentinal armor. There is much good they could do.

[Haunt]

Hank Pym would be better in that book. Just because it would be awesome to have a book with Marvel's greatest headshrinker and superherodom's greatest loony tune.

Eric would be just as entertaining. Marvel's greatest headshrinker and superherodom's greatest borderline personality disorder. Leonard wouldn't be able to make any headway. your way would deprive Ant-Man of a title to appear in. Hank will already be appearing in Mighty Avengers and Avengers: the Iniative.


Hmmm... how about a team consisting of Ant-Man, Doc Samson, Clor, and maybe Jim Rhondes in his ONE Sentinal armor. There is much good they could do.

i like that team. Clor is iffy but i don't know too much about him, yet. :)

[StarsAndGarters]

Hank Pym would be better in that book. Just because it would be awesome to have a book with Marvel's greatest headshrinker and superherodom's greatest loony tune.

What, they haven't coexisted already? That's a shoe-in!

[StoneGold]

What, they haven't coexisted already? That's a shoe-in!

I think they might have mentioned something about the two of them before, but I don't believe ever as an actual story anywhere.

[Haunt]

What, they haven't coexisted already? That's a shoe-in!

yes they have coexisted. Samson is a part of the pro-registration team that has been used in the main Civil War title. he's Pym's psychiatrist.

[XPac]

I think they might have mentioned something about the two of them before, but I don't believe ever as an actual story anywhere.

In She-Hulk, I believe Hank was sitting in therapy with Doc Samson when Jen called him. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall for that one.

[Eric_Carnaby]

your way would deprive Ant-Man of a title to appear in. :)

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[Blue Blaze]

I think ant man could easily fit and be a good addition to an Avengers' title. White Tiger would be good in just about any Marvel Knights book. I personally like her better than any of the previous solo White Tigers and probably as much as Sons of Tiger; which was very good because there was always a constant struggle between the three sons but they would have to fight through their differences to merge into the White Tiger.

[The New Fate]

I'm enjoying the White Tiger mini series. If she dose not ever get her own series I wont be upset but I would really like to see her in the Marvel Universe on a good team. Mabey on one of the "New" teams coming out of Civil War.

[geordiesteve]

Hopefully this repulsive (and repulsively lame) Ant-Man character is forever placed in comic book limbo.
(and isn't it ironic that some people that hate Wolverine as an Avenger cuz he "doesn't fit", would not have a problem with O'Grady? I have read posts from people who argue that Wolvie isn't "Avengers material" saying that O'Grady would be great as an Avenger)
His comic book flopping is a great start, and the next step is for him to just go away.

As for White Tiger, I'm meh on her.
She is inoffensive and could become a fixture in some other book like Daredevil.

I agree. I don't think the character is strong enough to stand by herself anywhere, and if she was recurring in a book it might get people more interested in her over time. I don't think anyone was asking for this series, they just did it (compared to the buzz around Iron Fist that led to his book). Also having her socialise and mix with other players in the Marvel U, might make her feel more integrated, but it felt forced to me. She hasn't earned her stripes (pun intended) to be hanging around with people like Widow, Cage and co yet.

Couldn't get past the first issue and Ant Man didn't appeal at all, despite the artist.

[Karl H]

Yeah... never been one for Ant-man and the CW: choosing sides didn't do it for me either... I was aiming to trade wait for White Tiger as enjoyed her appearances in Daredevil and Marvel needs some quality hispanic heroes (I didn't enjoy those guys that appeared in DD: Father.

[Nevets F]

I agree. I don't think the character is strong enough to stand by herself anywhere, and if she was recurring in a book it might get people more interested in her over time. I don't think anyone was asking for this series, they just did it (compared to the buzz around Iron Fist that led to his book). Also having her socialise and mix with other players in the Marvel U, might make her feel more integrated, but it felt forced to me. She hasn't earned her stripes (pun intended) to be hanging around with people like Widow, Cage and co yet.

Couldn't get past the first issue and Ant Man didn't appeal at all, despite the artist.

I agree with you on the Widow, but to be fair, Luke and Danny were friends with her uncle, and she considers them uncles to her.....so I am ok with her knowing them.

[Tien Long]

I've been reading the White Tiger mini recently. I enjoy it mainly for the martial arts action and I find it cool to see Angela regard Luke Cage and Danny Rand as her "uncles" in a way. Would I be sad to see her end up in comic book limbo? Eh, perhaps a little. She could be on a street team or perhaps a new team after Civil War. I think I saw her on the cover of Civil War: Initiative actually.


I like White Tiger.

She has a damm cool costume.

Bung her in New Avengers, its needs more Women

Hmmm, with her coming in would mean there would be TWO latinas on the team...two very HOT looking latinas...I'd buy that ;)!

[Sam T.]

The ant-Man book has been very interesting. I really hope it at least makes it to its 12th issue before they pull the plug on it!

[Haunt]

The ant-Man book has been very interesting. I really hope it at least makes it to its 12th issue before they pull the plug on it!

i'm hoping that the Ms.Marvel issue gets people's attentions. i'm not worried about it making it to issue 12. it's pretty much guaranteed even if it had been a mini-series.

[gravling]

they should wait until this year's big crossover event, and kill off any character who's not selling comics ;)

[Shellhead]

they should wait until this year's big crossover event, and kill off any character who's not selling comics ;)

http://www.marksverylarge.com/images/7301cover_s.jpg

[Eric_Carnaby]

I've been reading the White Tiger mini recently. I enjoy it mainly for the martial arts action and I find it cool to see Angela regard Luke Cage and Danny Rand as her "uncles" in a way. Would I be sad to see her end up in comic book limbo? Eh, perhaps a little. She could be on a street team or perhaps a new team after Civil War. I think I saw her on the cover of Civil War: Initiative actually.



Hmmm, with her coming in would mean there would be TWO latinas on the team...two very HOT looking latinas...I'd buy that ;)!

I actually liked how she was drawn before, as an average-looking forty-something woman.

[david r]

Marvel used to keep low-sellers alive, even if they weren't making big $$$ for them. Look at Cloak & Dagger, Howard the Duck, Tomb of Dracula and a little title that eventually changed the industry--- X-Men.

[Frank]

Marvel used to keep low-sellers alive, even if they weren't making big $$$ for them. Look at Cloak & Dagger, Howard the Duck, Tomb of Dracula and a little title that eventually changed the industry--- X-Men.

But back then low sellers were 100 Thousand copies a month. :D

[Haunt]

But back then low sellers were 100 Thousand copies a month. :D

but back then, they were cheaper.

[Shellhead]

Marvel used to keep low-sellers alive, even if they weren't making big $$$ for them. Look at Cloak & Dagger, Howard the Duck, Tomb of Dracula and a little title that eventually changed the industry--- X-Men.

X-Men got cancelled in 1969, despite the outstanding quality of the work by Roy Thomas and Neal Adams just before that point. X-Men stayed cancelled, too, at least until 1975 when Claremont & Cockrum brought it back. It's true that those early Claremont/Cockrum issues didn't sell well and Marvel kept the comic going anyway.

[ivesaidway2much]

but back then, they were cheaper.
Is that claim adjusted for inflation? Because back then technically everything was cheaper.

[PastePotPete]

People should read the incredible Irredeemable Ant-Man series and turn it into a hit instead of a flop.

[Haunt]

Is that claim adjusted for inflation? Because back then technically everything was cheaper.

you should ask Tom Brevoort. he could explain it to you better.

[MakeshiftHero]

Marvel used to keep low-sellers alive, even if they weren't making big $$$ for them. Look at Cloak & Dagger, Howard the Duck, Tomb of Dracula and a little title that eventually changed the industry--- X-Men.

But now Marvel is selling out more and more and seems that they're interested more in making money (but to their defense they are a company and thats the main reason why most of the people do their job there) instead of making better stories. I wouldn't see Howard the Duck and Tomb of Dracula staying on the shelves as long as they did now days.

Maybe these issues could get saved like She-Hulk or maybe even like Spider-Girl, but who knowns. I'm sure we'll still see them around every now and then if they do get canned (white tiger: DD, Ant-Man: pretty much anywhere, depends if you want to make him look good/bad)

[StoneGold]

But now Marvel is selling out more and more and seems that they're interested more in making money (but to their defense they are a company and thats the main reason why most of the people do their job there) instead of making better stories. I wouldn't see Howard the Duck and Tomb of Dracula staying on the shelves as long as they did now days.


The idea was always to make money. And if you think otherwise, Martin Goodman's corpse will rise from it's grave and murder you.

The difference is, the margin's changed. It was easier back in the day to have a couple of non-sellers, because you always had crap like Marvel Team-up that would sell despite being total crap to make up for it. Today, not so much.

[XPac]

But now Marvel is selling out more and more and seems that they're interested more in making money (but to their defense they are a company and thats the main reason why most of the people do their job there) instead of making better stories. I wouldn't see Howard the Duck and Tomb of Dracula staying on the shelves as long as they did now days.

Maybe these issues could get saved like She-Hulk or maybe even like Spider-Girl, but who knowns. I'm sure we'll still see them around every now and then if they do get canned (white tiger: DD, Ant-Man: pretty much anywhere, depends if you want to make him look good/bad)

I'm sure they're interested in both making a profit and in making better stories (I personally think the quality of the writer has gone up in the last few years compared to a lot of the stuff we saw in the 90's... but of course that's just my humble opinion).

But the thing is Marvel is a business. At the end of the day they can't really be faulted for following a sensible business model. If people don't buy a book, then they don't buy the book.

[Mariah]

Marvel used to keep low-sellers alive, even if they weren't making big $$$ for them. Look at Cloak & Dagger, Howard the Duck, Tomb of Dracula and a little title that eventually changed the industry--- X-Men.
Cloak and Dagger's first solo ongoing lasted 12 issues, their second lasted 19. Not exactly a huge run for either. Howard the duck lasted a whopping 32 issues the first time, and only 9 the second. The longest running of those titles was Tomb of Dracula, and actually lasted longer than the original line up for the X-Men did at 70 issues. These aren't exactly extremely long runs, when you think about it.

[jpk]

This is why Marvel Knights should have been saved. White Tiger would be a natural fit in that whole street-level crimefighting environment. Heck, Ant-Man could be shoehorned in there, too -- the comic relief in an otherwise gritty landscape.

As for the team:

Ant-Man
White Tiger
Clint Barton
Photon
Ben Reilly (I know he ain't dead!)
Doc Samson
War Machine

[Vic Vega]

Basically all Marvel really does is sell the exact SAME types of books to the same types of people, repeatedly. This breeds a comic reader that is less intrested in trying out new stuff.

If IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN is a comedy book, it needed to be pitched as as a comedy book. If WHITE TIGER is supposed to sell to the Latina audience it would help if the Latina audience knew the book existed.

As it is now every three years we see relaunches of Inhumans, She-Hulk, Namor and Alpha Flight repeatedly as MArvel hopes to get a creative team that can keep the concept afloat for over 50 issues (in this market, if a new book isn't an X-book or a Spider-book 50 issues are doing good).

Marvel needs to start doing magazine anthologies for the NEWSTAND market. If they want new readers they need to go where the comics fans ARENT (i.e. the newstands).

[NormanB]

This is why Marvel Knights should have been saved. White Tiger would be a natural fit in that whole street-level crimefighting environment. Heck, Ant-Man could be shoehorned in there, too -- the comic relief in an otherwise gritty landscape.

As for the team:

Ant-Man
White Tiger
Clint Barton
Photon
Ben Reilly (I know he ain't dead!)
Doc Samson
War Machine

Sounds like a third Avengers book to mee.

:D

[Shem the Penman]

What's the chance of a trade saving either?

Like She-Hulk?

I'm expecting White Tiger to do better in the trade than expected, just because Tamora Pierce's name on anything means an automatic buy from many children's and YA librarians. Well enough to save the character? I dunno, but it'd be a shame if not.

[Haunt]

This is why Marvel Knights should have been saved. White Tiger would be a natural fit in that whole street-level crimefighting environment. Heck, Ant-Man could be shoehorned in there, too -- the comic relief in an otherwise gritty landscape.

As for the team:

Ant-Man
White Tiger
Clint Barton
Photon
Ben Reilly (I know he ain't dead!)
Doc Samson
War Machine

i like the team but Photon's name should be first, imo. she and Clint tie for leadership experience. but i can't see her following Clint for some reason.

[MakeshiftHero]

I'm sure they're interested in both making a profit and in making better stories (I personally think the quality of the writer has gone up in the last few years compared to a lot of the stuff we saw in the 90's... but of course that's just my humble opinion).
Yeah I agree the stories have been better, and I know that they get excited when they come up with new ideas and different ways to help improve a story just as much as the readers.




But the thing is Marvel is a business. At the end of the day they can't really be faulted for following a sensible business model. If people don't buy a book, then they don't buy the book.
Once again I agree with you but with the price increases (was a while ago) on the major titles and adds are appearing to happen more often, and with events with massive tie-ins it just seems like they're moving a bit closer to the buisness/money making side of things instead of being in the middle of both sides of "better stories" and "income." I think it's just cause I'm getting burnt out on these events and tie-ins and I'm ready for the titles to focus back on their character(s) once again.

[DarkStar]

i say put them in the new, new, new avengers team :)

[Shellhead]

Is that claim adjusted for inflation? Because back then technically everything was cheaper.

I bought my first comic book (Fantastic Four #118) in 1970, for 20 cents.

Using this inflation calculator for the U.S. dollar...

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

...an issue of the Fantastic Four should have cost $1.01 in 2005. Instead, it was $3.00. That means that inflation on comic books over the last 35 years is running about triple the general rate of inflation in the U.S. economy.