Ranking the Q!

[Lord of Denial]

Where do you think The Q from ST TNG rank in terms of overall power?

Let's use Marvel as an example.

1. Herald Level
2. Skyfather Level
3. Galactus level
4. Eternity Level
5. Living Tribunal level

[T51R]

Considering that they don't have that many feats, and that many trekkies fall back on "changing the gravitational constant of the universe," a statement that can be translated as being narritive hyperbole, I'd put them at top-level Skyfather.

[Darth Joker]

Considering that they don't have that many feats, and that many trekkies fall back on "changing the gravitational constant of the universe," a statement that can be translated as being narritive hyperbole, I'd put them at top-level Skyfather.

Come now - Q has complete and utter reality warping ability. He also has considerable mastery over time.

I don't think that Q is omnipotent in the traditional sense of the term - i.e. he's not invulnerable/invincible (this is seen by the Q civil war in Star Trek: Voyager).

Q is basically on par with, say, Genie Jafar.

I actually think that this is what Star Trek writers were thinking of when they created Q - they were thinking of a Genie entity. Someone who can grant their own wishes with the snap of their fingers.

Sort of like a 5-D Imp in DC, I would say.

So... where would you put a 5-D Imp? Wherever it is, that's where you should put Q.

[T51R]

Come now - Q has complete and utter reality warping ability. He also has considerable mastery over time.

I don't think that Q is omnipotent in the traditional sense of the term - i.e. he's not invulnerable/invincible (this is seen by the Q civil war in Star Trek: Voyager).

Q is basically on par with, say, Genie Jafar.

I actually think that this is what Star Trek writers were thinking of when they created Q - they were thinking of a Genie entity. Someone who can grant their own wishes with the snap of their fingers.

Sort of like a 5-D Imp in DC, I would say.

So... where would you put a 5-D Imp? Wherever it is, that's where you should put Q.

I'd put that below LT level, ie. two steps down from God but definitely above or tie with IG level, which is wide-scale local reality warping. Dunno if you'd agree with that but its just my own thoughts?:confused:

[Lord of Denial]

I'd put that below LT level, ie. two steps down from God but definitely above or tie with IG level, which is wide-scale local reality warping. Dunno if you'd agree with that but its just my own thoughts?:confused:

What does wide scale local reality warping mean?

That sentence is confusing me. It says like three different things.

[T51R]

You might have to translate m8, because I'm a bit inundated right now if you know what I mean. SEMI- DRUNKEN POST FTW!!!:D

[Darth Joker]

I'd put that below LT level, ie. two steps down from God but definitely above or tie with IG level, which is wide-scale local reality warping. Dunno if you'd agree with that but its just my own thoughts?:confused:

That sounds about right. :)

[Lord of Denial]

That sounds about right. :)

I am trying to remember but what feats did Q have that puts him at IG level?

[Darth Joker]

I am trying to remember but what feats did Q have that puts him at IG level?

Q changed a gigantic space entity that was threatening to destroy the Enterprise into a small tiny critter that he could hold in the plam of his hand.

He's also caused the Enterprise to move across space at incredible velocities.

He revealed to Janeway that he could put Voyager right back next to Earth if she'd agree to one of his conditions (she didn't - one of Janeway's more dumbass and/or selfish moments, in my view).

He re-created the world of Robin Hood into reality, and forced Picard to play as Robin Hood, Riker as Little John, and Data as Friar Tuck. :D

He took Picard back in time to the very beginning of amino acids starting to form life on Earth.

He created a great wall of... something... in the middle of space that was blocking, and chasing after, the Enterprise at every turn.

You have to keep in mind that Q isn't like Nabeshin - he doesn't think that "explosions solve everything!" - he perfers to snap his fingers, and make things appear, or disappear, or change in a very neat and tidy way.

So, you don't get these really impressive looking moments of planets exploding, or of cosmic energy shooting out of his hands.

[T51R]

Yer. Q's always been very controlled and reserved.He does seem to think a lot about the chain of causality as a result of his actions. In fact, the one time he neglected to do so IIRC, he was kicked out from the Q continuum. He's definitely not Nabeshin-level, which is director self-insertion. That's already beyond TOAA/LoN levels where you're writing the plot all charatcers have to follow, and very few things can touch you except for the Series Creator himself[Nabeshin openly defies Koshi Rikudo on multiple occasions too]

[Jared H.]

Remember the Q Civil War after that one Q committed suicide?

The fallout from the weaponry of the Q from the continuum was causing multiple supernovae.

One Q also not only traveled back to the big bang, but shielded Voyager and its crew from the effects of the explosion.

I'd say Galactus level at the very least.

[Lord of Denial]

Q changed a gigantic space entity that was threatening to destroy the Enterprise into a small tiny critter that he could hold in the plam of his hand.

He's also caused the Enterprise to move across space at incredible velocities.

He revealed to Janeway that he could put Voyager right back next to Earth if she'd agree to one of his conditions (she didn't - one of Janeway's more dumbass and/or selfish moments, in my view).

He re-created the world of Robin Hood into reality, and forced Picard to play as Robin Hood, Riker as Little John, and Data as Friar Tuck. :D

He took Picard back in time to the very beginning of amino acids starting to form life on Earth.

He created a great wall of... something... in the middle of space that was blocking, and chasing after, the Enterprise at every turn.

You have to keep in mind that Q isn't like Nabeshin - he doesn't think that "explosions solve everything!" - he perfers to snap his fingers, and make things appear, or disappear, or change in a very neat and tidy way.

So, you don't get these really impressive looking moments of planets exploding, or of cosmic energy shooting out of his hands.

Could not a Celestial do all of that?

[Darth Joker]

Could not a Celestial do all of that?

Well, perhaps he's Celestial/Galactus level instead of IG-wielder level.

He's above Skyfather, and below LT - I think that we can *all* agree on that.

[Farealmer]

Lets take a look.

First, the Time and space things are irrelevent. Fed Timeships move through time. And the traveler took the Enterprise to the end of the universe. So time and space travel isn't a feat of power.


Q changed a gigantic space entity that was threatening to destroy the Enterprise into a small tiny critter that he could hold in the plam of his hand.
So he shruck it, could not Surfer or Sersei transmutate it in a similar way?


He re-created the world of Robin Hood into reality, and forced Picard to play as Robin Hood, Riker as Little John, and Data as Friar Tuck
How do we know that wasn't the Q version of a holodeck? Either way it shows planet level ability at best, that's not even on a skyfathers radar.


He created a great wall of... something... in the middle of space that was blocking, and chasing after, the Enterprise at every turn.
So he created a big shield. That's not exactly galactic manipulations.

I like Q(one of my favorate characters) and in a few hours i will finally get to see the civil war episode, but there is no proof of even galactic level effects. Let alone Galactus "i destroy galaxies(read galaxies not supernovas)as a side effect of my battles". So i don't see anything that puts him above skyfather.

[Darth Joker]

The thing with Q is this...

1) There's not very many uberpowerful beings in the Star Trek universe. There's a few, yes, but a lot of them are one-shot (like Trelane in the original Star Trek - a character that many Trekkies believe to be a member of the Q continuim himself). There's the Prophets, and the Pah Wraiths, of DS9, but Q never got involved with them either way. So... there's not many beings to measure Q against within his own universe.

2) Q's not a mass destruction guy. He's not some DBZ villian who gets shits and giggles out of making entire planet's go boom. He's a very cerebral character - he likes to play games on protagonists (all of whom are either normal humanoids, or advanced andriods), and test their intelligence and wits.

Combine these two things together, and there's simply no way for there to be these awesome feats of Q to talk about - big, flashy things like what a Galactus or a Parallax or a Celestial would do is not his style.

However, the official Star Trek stance on him is that he's a nigh-omnipotent being who can do whatever he wants with the snap of his fingers... and there's nothing contradicting that stance.

As much as I hate how Uber they made Tenchi, Tenchi's own creator states that he's meant to be a God-like being, and that's good enough for me.

Likewise, Q's meant to be a God-like cosmic entity, and that's good enough for me.

[Lord of Denial]

The thing with Q is this...

1) There's not very many uberpowerful beings in the Star Trek universe. There's a few, yes, but a lot of them are one-shot (like Trelane in the original Star Trek - a character that many Trekkies believe to be a member of the Q continuim himself). There's the Prophets, and the Pah Wraiths, of DS9, but Q never got involved with them either way. So... there's not many beings to measure Q against within his own universe.

2) Q's not a mass destruction guy. He's not some DBZ villian who gets shits and giggles out of making entire planet's go boom. He's a very cerebral character - he likes to play games on protagonists (all of whom are either normal humanoids, or advanced andriods), and test their intelligence and wits.

Combine these two things together, and there's simply no way for there to be these awesome feats of Q to talk about - big, flashy things like what a Galactus or a Parallax or a Celestial would do is not his style.

However, the official Star Trek stance on him is that he's a nigh-omnipotent being who can do whatever he wants with the snap of his fingers... and there's nothing contradicting that stance.

As much as I hate how Uber they made Tenchi, Tenchi's own creator states that he's meant to be a God-like being, and that's good enough for me.

Likewise, Q's meant to be a God-like cosmic entity, and that's good enough for me.


But a Q say's otherwise in an ep of Voyager.

He says to not think of him as omnipotent that they really aren't and that to less advanced races humans must look very powerful same with the Q.

And even in a ep of Next Generation Riker and Q are talking about what humans will one day become and Riker asks if that is what Q fears that humans will evolve even past the Q. And Q pretty much say's yes.

How do you evolve past all-powerful and godlike.

[Farealmer]

1) There's not very many uberpowerful beings in the Star Trek universe. There's a few, yes, but a lot of them are one-shot (like Trelane in the original Star Trek - a character that many Trekkies believe to be a member of the Q continuim himself). There's the Prophets, and the Pah Wraiths, of DS9, but Q never got involved with them either way. So... there's not many beings to measure Q against within his own universe.

Irrelevent, combat isn't the only way we see how powerful someone is.


2) Q's not a mass destruction guy. He's not some DBZ villian who gets shits and giggles out of making entire planet's go boom. He's a very cerebral character - he likes to play games on protagonists (all of whom are either normal humanoids, or advanced andriods), and test their intelligence and wits.
Again IRRELEVENT


Combine these two things together, and there's simply no way for there to be these awesome feats of Q to talk about - big, flashy things like what a Galactus or a Parallax or a Celestial would do is not his style.
He didn't need to, just saying they can destroy/create a universe could have helped, the only steller object they ever refered to was when Q lectured Q about the "misplaced" nebula. Thats not galactic, thus under skyfather.


However, the official Star Trek stance on him is that he's a nigh-omnipotent being who can do whatever he wants with the snap of his fingers... and there's nothing contradicting that stance.

And this board goes by feats, not hyperbole.


As much as I hate how Uber they made Tenchi, Tenchi's own creator states that he's meant to be a God-like being, and that's good enough for me.
Except unlike Q, Tenchi proved this when he became more powerful than the creators of his cosmos(the chousin). The Q have no such feats.


Likewise, Q's meant to be a God-like cosmic entity, and that's good enough for me.
Irrelevent seeing as how you don't write board policy.

[Darth Joker]

Irrelevent, combat isn't the only way we see how powerful someone is.


Again IRRELEVENT

No, it's not. It explains why we don't have these spectacular Q feats to speak of.


He didn't need to, just saying they can destroy/create a universe could have helped, the only steller object they ever refered to was when Q lectured Q about the "misplaced" nebula. Thats not galactic, thus under skyfather.

Skyfather means MU Odin/Zeus, correct? Well, what are THEIR top showings? They never struck me as that impressively powerful.


And this board goes by feats, not hyperbole.

Not entirely.

What feat has Marvel's OAA ever done *in the actual panels of a comic book*?

Yet, we all just accept that Marvel's OAA is on top of the MU.


Except unlike Q Tenchi proved this when he became more powerful than the creators of his cosmos(the chousin). The Q have no such feats.

Nor does Marvel's OAA.


Irrelevent seeing as how you don't write board policy.

Why are you getting so worked up about this debate?

You can think about Q however you want.

Voyager messed Q, and the Borg, up bad (just two of their terrible injustices to the Star Trek universe) - no question.

There might be some things there that I've blocked out of my mind that I'll need to reconsider.

[Farealmer]

No, it's not. It explains why we don't have these spectacular Q feats to speak of.

Yes it is, they could have had the Q do a high level feat without combat. They didn't, just because they throw around the term omnipotent doesn't make them so.


Skyfather means MU Odin/Zeus, correct? Well, what are THEIR top showings? They never struck me as that impressively powerful.

Destroying Galaxies.


Yet, we all just accept that Marvel's OAA is on top of the MU.

Because his servant the LT has uber feats of his own. If someone was impowered by/served the Q and destroyed a universe than it would be different.


Nor does Marvel's OAA.
He has the LT, thats enough.


Why are you getting so worked up about this debate?

Because your wanking Q, and that does is more harm than good for him/them.


You can think about Q however you want.

So basically using board policy isn't good enough for you? The whole "you/this board can say/think whatever it wants" is just proving your too biased to reason with.

[Gorthaur]

We've also seen Marvel's supreme entity in action, kinda. That Heart of the Universe that Thanos guy wielded? His power.

As for the Q, yeah. Based on feats, he's somewhere between Silver Surfer and Galactus/Skyfathers, probably.

[Lord of Denial]

OK I got a power level in Marvel.

What about DC?

Whose class do you place him in?

[Altraferne]

Several of the Star Trek Novels elaborate quite a bit on the Q's omnipotence.

In particular: The Q Continuum Trilogy and Q Squared depict several acts by Q of rearranging the cosmos to suit his fancy. According to one passage in The Q Continuum, a young Q could easily create supernovas, temporal distortions, exist in multiple places at once, breaking dimensional boundries and treating the universe in general as his plaything.

At one point they describe a battle between four members of the Q and a band of extra-dimensional hoodlums that devastated the space-time continuum for thousands of years, wiping out billions of sentient races and even resulted in the extinction of the dinosaurs on Earth.

In Q Squared, Q was easily able to travel to other universes and Trelane, an adolescent Q int he book, took credit for creating every Temporal Anomoly in the history of Star Trek.

Any way, I know someone is going to say that the books aren't cannon to the series but I just thought I would mention them. Carry on.

[Lord of Denial]

Several of the Star Trek Novels elaborate quite a bit on the Q's omnipotence.

In particular: The Q Continuum Trilogy and Q Squared depict several acts by Q of rearranging the cosmos to suit his fancy. According to one passage in The Q Continuum, a young Q could easily create supernovas, temporal distortions, exist in multiple places at once, breaking dimensional boundries and treating the universe in general as his plaything.

At one point they describe a battle between four members of the Q and a band of extra-dimensional hoodlums that devastated the space-time continuum for thousands of years, wiping out billions of sentient races and even resulted in the extinction of the dinosaurs on Earth.

In Q Squared, Q was easily able to travel to other universes and Trelane, an adolescent Q int he book, took credit for creating every Temporal Anomoly in the history of Star Trek.


Any way, I know someone is going to say that the books aren't cannon to the series but I just thought I would mention them. Carry on.

They also mention a M Continuum and was thought by some to be more powerful then the Q.

Also Trelane tapped into an energy source that made him more powerful than all the Q combined.

[JCAll]

Better Question: Who's name is harder? Q or Mxyzptlk?

[CrossoverManiac]

I'd put that below LT level, ie. two steps down from God but definitely above or tie with IG level, which is wide-scale local reality warping. Dunno if you'd agree with that but its just my own thoughts?:confused:

I put them below the IG. IG single-handedly cut the population of the Marvel universe in half while the survivors watched in horror. IG users rub elbows with concepts (Death, Chaos, Order, and Eternity). No Q has ever done that. I would also put them two steps below the Endless. The Q can kill you, but Death is Death and the Q are subjected to concepts (Death, Desire, Despair, Dream, etc).

[CrossoverManiac]

Why are people citing the Trek novels? They are all non-canon. Trelane is not a Q. Q has never reproduced as Q until DeLance Q and her stalker Q girlfriend made that baby appear out of no where (and no, Amanda Rogers doesn't count since her parents were human at the time of her creation).

Edit: I know that doesn't sound right, but that's the only way to settle the two contradictory episodes without either retconning or disregarding an episode from the canon.

[CrossoverManiac]

The thing with Q is this...

1) There's not very many uberpowerful beings in the Star Trek universe. There's a few, yes, but a lot of them are one-shot (like Trelane in the original Star Trek - a character that many Trekkies believe to be a member of the Q continuim himself). There's the Prophets, and the Pah Wraiths, of DS9, but Q never got involved with them either way. So... there's not many beings to measure Q against within his own universe.

Irrelevent, combat isn't the only way we see how powerful someone is.

There's also the anti-time phenomenon in "All Good Things...". DeLance Q created that by himself and it was large enough to be seen all the way to from Earth over four billion years ago. It also wiped out life from Earth, or should I say, kept it from being created. And judging by the size of the anti-time phenomenon, it probably whiped out all humanoid life in the Alpha Quadrant if not the Milky Way galaxy. So, yes, the Q can wipe out all life in a galaxy. There's also the feat of Graham Q shielding Voyager from the creation of the universe itself.



2) Q's not a mass destruction guy. He's not some DBZ villian who gets shits and giggles out of making entire planet's go boom. He's a very cerebral character - he likes to play games on protagonists (all of whom are either normal humanoids, or advanced andriods), and test their intelligence and wits.

Again IRRELEVENT

The Q have produced some impressive feats like moving an entire asteroid belt or moving an asteroid with no effort at all. Even an untrained Q has impressive powers. Amanda Rogers could alter reality, control a person's mind, and survive in the vacuum of space. Q, in the same episode, hid inside the Enterprize-D's warp core, so matter-antimatter annihilation has no effect on him.



Combine these two things together, and there's simply no way for there to be these awesome feats of Q to talk about - big, flashy things like what a Galactus or a Parallax or a Celestial would do is not his style.

He didn't need to, just saying they can destroy/create a universe could have helped, the only steller object they ever refered to was when Q lectured Q about the "misplaced" nebula. Thats not galactic, thus under skyfather.

That's not the only one. The anti-time feat was a stellar object large enough to be seen from Earth even though its light-years away and appear larger than the stars which are also light-years away.



However, the official Star Trek stance on him is that he's a nigh-omnipotent being who can do whatever he wants with the snap of his fingers... and there's nothing contradicting that stance.

And this board goes by feats, not hyperbole.

But there are feats. Anti-time feat, the supernovas caused by a fight in a different dimension, surviving the Big Bang, traveling across the universe in a blink of an eye, etc.



As much as I hate how Uber they made Tenchi, Tenchi's own creator states that he's meant to be a God-like being, and that's good enough for me.

Except unlike Q, Tenchi proved this when he became more powerful than the creators of his cosmos(the chousin). The Q have no such feats.

Did you actually watch Star Trek?



As much as I hate how Uber they made Tenchi, Tenchi's own creator states that he's meant to be a God-like being, and that's good enough for me.

Likewise, Q's meant to be a God-like cosmic entity, and that's good enough for me.

Irrelevent seeing as how you don't write board policy.

Actually, statements made by the creators of a series is considered canon so long as it is not contradictory to what is shown in the series.

[Farealmer]

There's also the anti-time phenomenon in "All Good Things...". DeLance Q created that by himself and it was large enough to be seen all the way to from Earth over four billion years ago.
Accually Picard created it with the three enterprises. The only part Q played was taking him through time.


So, yes, the Q can wipe out all life in a galaxy.
Prove it, because that anti-time thing wasn't created by him and we never seen it grow to galactic size so thats speculation.


There's also the feat of Graham Q shielding Voyager from the creation of the universe itself.

No they didn't, infact Q talked about how they should be honored that getting caught in the explosion will scatter them across the universe. Not to mention Janeway stating that the ship won't survive. That means the full effect never touched them.



Q, in the same episode, hid inside the Enterprize-D's warp core, so matter-antimatter annihilation has no effect on him.

And Surfer can survive in black holes. He's only a herald.


The anti-time feat was a stellar object large enough to be seen from Earth even though its light-years away and appear larger than the stars which are also light-years away.

Which Q didn't create and it took billion of years to even afffect part of a galaxy. Not exactly Odin level destruction on command there.


Anti-time feat, the supernovas caused by a fight in a different dimension, surviving the Big Bang, traveling across the universe in a blink of an eye, etc.

None of which prove galaxy busting. First, The anti-time feat has been addressed. Second, supernovas can be created/stopped by GL's and Heralds. Third, we don't know if they can survive the big bang we just know they can travel to it's time. For all we know they watch it from a safe distance. And fourth, even a fed shuttle pod can go infinite speed using warp 10, so thats not impressive for Q either.


Did you actually watch Star Trek?

The only episode i haven't seen with Q is the one where his son stays on voyager, so unless feats happened in that one, yes i've seen all relevent episodes.


Actually, statements made by the creators of a series is considered canon so long as it is not contradictory to what is shown in the series.
And no-limit fallacies aren't handed out without feats. But lets see this quote, if it exists.

[CrossoverManiac]

Accually Picard created it with the three enterprises. The only part Q played was taking him through time.

No, Picard collapse anti-time with the three Enterprises. Later, Q admits to being the one who orchestrated the event under orders by the Continuum.


Prove it, because that anti-time thing wasn't created by him and we never seen it grow to galactic size so thats speculation.

Did you actually watch the episode. The anti-time event was visible in the skies of Earth, and by visible, I mean it wasn't a point of light like the stars but had a definite shape. In fact, it filled a good portion of the night sky there.


No they didn't, infact Q talked about how they should be honored that getting caught in the explosion will scatter them across the universe. Not to mention Janeway stating that the ship won't survive. That means the full effect never touched them.

Oh look what I found: transcripts of the episode in question (http://www.star-trek-voyager.net/a1episodes/ep34b.htm):

Janeway: "What did you do to him?"
Q2: "Nothing. He's still there in the 24th century. I just took the rest of us to an old hiding place of mine."
When Janeway orders a report, Kim replies: "Captain, there are no stars outside."
Q2: "Well, that's partially correct. Actually, there's no universe outside."
Janeway: "On screen. Commander?"
Chakotay: "I'm showing a large buildup of baryon particles."
Q2: "Perfectly normal."
Tuvok: "Captain, based on our readings, it appears that we've been transported back in time to the birth of the universe."
Q2: "Very old hiding place."

There is a bright flash and Q appears next to Torres. He tells Q2: "No, I know all the hiding places, Q. I hid here from the Continuum myself once."
Torres: "This ship will not survive the formation of the cosmos."
Q: "Yes, but just think of the honour of having your DNA spread from one corner of the universe to the other. Why you could be the origin of the humanoid form."
Janeway: "Q! Either Q! Get us out of here!"
Q to Q2: "You heard the lady, Q. Back to your cell."

1). Q2/Quinn/GrahamQ (played by Geret Graham) tried to commit suicide but failed.

2). Q2 referred to the Big Bang as his old hiding place

3). Q/DeLancieQ hid there once when he was fleeing from the continuum.

We know that Q2 was trying to kill himself and failed, and right before him, was the very creation of the universe and he's still alive. Furthermore, Q used the Big Bang as his hiding place and he didn't have the death wish that Q2 had. So, the Q can survive the formation of the universe itself. As for molecules being spread throughout the universe, Q2 was referring to Janeway and her humanoid crew and not himself.


And Surfer can survive in black holes. He's only a herald.

Big Bang>>>>>>>>>>>>> a black hole


Which Q didn't create and it took billion of years to even afffect part of a galaxy. Not exactly Odin level destruction on command there.

1). Q set the whole thing up. Had it not been for him, the anti-time event would have never happened.

2). It was test on humanity and their potential for growth. The Q didn't outright try to destroy them. If the Q wanted to get rid of the human race, they would supernova every star in the Alpha Quadrant.


None of which prove galaxy busting. First, The anti-time feat has been addressed.

Selective cutting and pasting of events in an episode is not 'addressing' an issue. Picard, after collapsing the anti-time event, thanked Q for his help. Q then confesses that he was the one that set up the anti-time event in the first place.


Second, supernovas can be created/stopped by GL's and Heralds.

So? That doesn't mean Q are no stronger than Heralds or GL's. Oh, did you fail to mention that the Q were causing these supernova from within their own universe. They weren't even in the same universe and they were causing supernovas as a side effect of their own civil war. I don't recall Heralds or GL's destroying a star system remotely from a different plane of existence.


Third, we don't know if they can survive the big bang we just know they can travel to it's time. For all we know they watch it from a safe distance.

Because we know the suicidal Q would never think of killing himself by standing in the path of an universe being born right in front of him :rolleyes: The entire point of the episode was that he was asking the Q to make him mortal so he can die which gives strong implications that the only thing in the Star Trek universe that can kill a Q is another Q.


And fourth, even a fed shuttle pod can go infinite speed using warp 10, so thats not impressive for Q either.

And we know how badly that went. Q can do that, travel to any point in time, etc.


The only episode i haven't seen with Q is the one where his son stays on voyager, so unless feats happened in that one, yes i've seen all relevent episodes.

Then your memories of the episodes are faulty.


And no-limit fallacies aren't handed out without feats. But lets see this quote, if it exists.

I don't have those quotes on me as another posters made reference to it. But if such statements have been made by the author of the work, and it doesn't contradict events in the story, it is considered canon.

[NilExtropus]

In terms of actual feats, not very powerful. Probably around the level of a weaker cosmic cube/cube being.

[AllisterH]

To me, the most powerful "feat" Q did puts him WAY above any old Herald and any skyfather either.

When Q gave Picard the opportunity to relive his youth, Picard initally was opposed since whatever he changed in his youth could have drastic consequences, yet Q was able to manipulate the timeline so that Picard not being the go-getter doesn't change the present.

All those times where Picard saved his crew, the Federation and the Alpha Quadrant, Q was able to insure that even though Picard never made it past jr. grade lieutenant, the same outcome occured.

That, IMO, is a feat of total control over time and space. Any body in fiction can go back in time but how many can change the past without changing the future?

[NilExtropus]

To me, the most powerful "feat" Q did puts him WAY above any old Herald and any skyfather either.

When Q gave Picard the opportunity to relive his youth, Picard initally was opposed since whatever he changed in his youth could have drastic consequences, yet Q was able to manipulate the timeline so that Picard not being the go-getter doesn't change the present.

All those times where Picard saved his crew, the Federation and the Alpha Quadrant, Q was able to insure that even though Picard never made it past jr. grade lieutenant, the same outcome occured.

That, IMO, is a feat of total control over time and space. Any body in fiction can go back in time but how many can change the past without changing the future?

Except for the fact that the whole episode was merely Picard's dream and there's no proof that Q was even actually involved. Even if he was, like I said, he could have just been showing these things to Picard in a dream instead of actually making them happen. This "feat" is very dubious if you ask me.

[AllisterH]

Except for the fact that the whole episode was merely Picard's dream and there's no proof that Q was even actually involved. Even if he was, like I said, he could have just been showing these things to Picard in a dream instead of actually making them happen. This "feat" is very dubious if you ask me.

Er, nope. Picard was on his deathbed and he thought it was a dream. When he begged Q to put him back, Q asked him if he truly wanted to be back on that operating table.

There is no indication that it was a dream since, quite frankly, Q doesn't do dreams.

[NilExtropus]

That's hardly evidence. What happened was that Picard was injured, then the rest of the episode was spent in his dream, then he woke up. We never saw Q in that episode at all in the "real world". It's likely Picard just dreamed the whole thing himself, and even implied that is the case.

I'm not saying it's impossible that Q actually did those things, but it can't be used as a feat since there's no proof.

[JCAll]

I don't have those quotes on me as another posters made reference to it. But if such statements have been made by the author of the work, and it doesn't contradict events in the story, it is considered canon.

That probably ought to be taken on a case by case basis. Sometimes the creators have no idea what they're talking about. Like, the Creator of Gargoyles said that one of the characters was meant to be gay, but there is no evidence of that in the show so no one cares. Other people who shall not be named, George Lucus, ought to be completely ignored.

Anyway, I doubt there exists a quote anywhere by Gene Roddenberry that pinpoints Q's powerlevel, or it would have been widely known by now. And his is the only quote that would matter.

[Lord of Denial]

Can we debate this thread like adults and have respect for one anothers opinions without insulting each other.

I have had quite a few threads closed due to fighting and I would like to avoid yet another one. Please!:D :D

[Gorthaur]

When could we ever?

Okay, well, we could, but that was way before your time.

[Gordon Smith]

Yes, debating this thread in a civil manner like adults would be highly desirable, so I want to see all of us strive to do better in that regard. I certainly don't want to see an interesting thread closed, so let's try to remember that we're all here to have fun and not get worked up over a matter of no actual concrete importance.

~~Gordon

[NilExtropus]

Yes, debating this thread in a civil manner like adults would be highly desirable, so I want to see all of us strive to do better in that regard. I certainly don't want to see an interesting thread closed, so let's try to remember that we're all here to have fun and not get worked up over a matter of no actual concrete importance.

~~Gordon

What was I doing wrong?

[Gorthaur]

For what it's worth, I prefer to get worked up over matters of no concrete importance. I mean, let's face it - we could argue global economics or international politics and get worke up over that, like many people do, but ain't none of us heads of state or opinion leaders. None of what we think, say or do makes any difference in the greater scheme of things anyway, so we might as well vent our frustrations on verbal fisticuffs regarding the Hulk's pants. At least that way, we're being honest with ourselves.

[Gordon Smith]

For what it's worth, I prefer to get worked up over matters of no concrete importance. I mean, let's face it - we could argue global economics or international politics and get worke up over that, like many people do, but ain't none of us heads of state or opinion leaders. None of what we think, say or do makes any difference in the greater scheme of things anyway, so we might as well vent our frustrations on verbal fisticuffs regarding the Hulk's pants. At least that way, we're being honest with ourselves.

I can understand that, yes and I'm not unsympathetic to that sentiment. It's just that, from my perspective, I have a pretty darned confrontational job where I'm always arguing with customers and contractors and suppliers and law enforcement, and when I get home, there's my messy personal life to get worked up over (*spits in direction of Revenue Canada*) to fuss about, so the stuff we have here seems trivial by comparision to me and not worth so much hassle.

[JCAll]

I can understand that, yes and I'm not unsympathetic to that sentiment. It's just that, from my perspective, I have a pretty darned confrontational job where I'm always arguing with customers and contractors and suppliers and law enforcement, and when I get home, there's my messy personal life to get worked up over (*spits in direction of Revenue Canada*) to fuss about, so the stuff we have here seems trivial by comparision to me and not worth so much hassle.

*sniff* I wish I had a life :(
...
:D

[Gumbo Maximillian]

Actually I'm not sure big bang=greater than a black hole, we are talking about infinite force here, at least hypothetically.

That being the case, hanging out in a black hole might dwarf taking the big bang.

So basically yeah, Q's are somewhere between herald/GL level, sky fathers and cosmic cubes.

[Sharpandpointies]

*spits in direction of Revenue Canada*

*joins Gordon in spitting in the direction of RC*

I'll leave you to your discussion re. Q, now. :)

[Farealmer]

No, Picard collapse anti-time with the three Enterprises. Later, Q admits to being the one who orchestrated the event under orders by the Continuum.

Quote that if you will, because as far as i am remember he only put Picard in the area to create it.


Did you actually watch the episode. The anti-time event was visible in the skies of Earth, and by visible, I mean it wasn't a point of light like the stars but had a definite shape. In fact, it filled a good portion of the night sky there.

But it wasn't galactic size.


1). Q2/Quinn/GrahamQ (played by Geret Graham) tried to commit suicide but failed.

2). Q2 referred to the Big Bang as his old hiding place

3). Q/DeLancieQ hid there once when he was fleeing from the continuum.

Which proves nothing, Q are often riddled with PIS.


As for molecules being spread throughout the universe, Q2 was referring to Janeway and her humanoid crew and not himself.

I was refering to your claim they could protect Voyagers crew from it.


Big Bang>>>>>>>>>>>>> a black hole

Which sense they never accually been in the big bang and just at it's time period doesn't prove anything.


Q then confesses that he was the one that set up the anti-time event in the first place.

More like set up Picard to create the anti-time event. As it didn't appear until after(or before being anti-time) Picard had the place scanned. I really hate time things, so hard to discuss.


That doesn't mean Q are no stronger than Heralds or GL's.
Never said they weren't, just said theat the feat you put so much stock in has been duplicated by lesser powers.


The entire point of the episode was that he was asking the Q to make him mortal so he can die which gives strong implications that the only thing in the Star Trek universe that can kill a Q is another Q.

Implication alone don't justify a no-limit fallacy of "only Q can kill Q".


And we know how badly that went.
If the DNA mutations could be delt with it would work out fine. Just another PIS reason why Voyager never made it home early.

[NilExtropus]

I should mention that he said the anomaly took up most of the quadrant, which means it was almost 1/4th the size of a galaxy.

[HulkStrongestOne]

Q did alter Picard's personal history covering roughly 30 years once, while keeping the rest of the universe humming along otherwise identically. Then reversed it again. Although understated, this is actually a massive feat. Because of it I'd at least consider him galaxy-warping level based on this demonstrated feat.

He doesn't have "universe" or "galaxy" busting feats because they're tougher to portray in a live action series without looking idiotic. In comics, you can draw some circles bouncing off Thanos, call them "planets", and be done with it.

[Lord of Denial]

I should mention that he said the anomaly took up most of the quadrant, which means it was almost 1/4th the size of a galaxy.

Considering there are millions upon millions of galaxies in the universe and that 1/4 of one galaxy is like a single atom in a drop of water in an ocean it is not all that impressive.

And considering Galactus and Odin have both destroyed galaxies as a side effect of battle creating a 1/4 of a galaxy is a rather small feat.

[HulkStrongestOne]

The thing with Q is this...

1) There's not very many uberpowerful beings in the Star Trek universe. There's a few, yes, but a lot of them are one-shot (like Trelane in the original Star Trek - a character that many Trekkies believe to be a member of the Q continuim himself). There's the Prophets, and the Pah Wraiths, of DS9, but Q never got involved with them either way. So... there's not many beings to measure Q against within his own universe.

The Prophets existed "outside of time" and saw all our time at the same time, as if you were looking at a coiled up movie film from beginning to end. As such, they sounded the closest to the "Beyonders", the creators of the Beyonder and the cosmic cubes, or at least a smaller version of them.

Still, feat-wise, there's not much to go on.


2) Q's not a mass destruction guy. He's not some DBZ villian who gets shits and giggles out of making entire planet's go boom. He's a very cerebral character - he likes to play games on protagonists (all of whom are either normal humanoids, or advanced andriods), and test their intelligence and wits.

True. Does anybody doubt he couldn't effortlessly duplicate the planetary destruction effect of those ships that attacked the Borg planets?



However, the official Star Trek stance on him is that he's a nigh-omnipotent being who can do whatever he wants with the snap of his fingers... and there's nothing contradicting that stance.

To use Q's own words, "What part of 'omnipotent' don't you understand?" Combine this with his "2000 IQ", and if he sees something mechanical or physical, he can duplicate it in an infinitesimal fraction of a second, and hence gain its powers.


There is no indication that it was a dream since, quite frankly, Q doesn't do dreams.

IIRC, Q explicitely told Picard it wasn't a dream and was all quite real -- he even guaranteed to Picard that nothing else in reality would be altered except Picard himself. Of course, Picard could have dreamed Q saying that, but now I'd say you'd be reaching too far with it.

[NilExtropus]

Why is that? I've had dreams where people told me it wasn't a dream.

In addition, Quinn in "Death Wish" explicitly stated that Q weren't omnipotent, just more advanced than the Federation.

[Lord of Denial]

Why is that? I've had dreams where people told me it wasn't a dream.

In addition, Quinn in "Death Wish" explicitly stated that Q weren't omnipotent, just more advanced than the Federation.

I brought that up earlier. That sealed it for me, he said it outright.

[CrossoverManiac]

Why is that? I've had dreams where people told me it wasn't a dream.

It's not beyond the Q to bring the dead back to life, heal people who are terminally ill, or time travel, so I see no reason to discount the events in "Tapestry" as a dream. What's next? "All Good Things..." was just a figment of Picard's 24th century equivalent to Alheizmers? Or that Riker never served on the Enterprise and has been in a mental institution all of his life?


In addition, Quinn in "Death Wish" explicitly stated that Q weren't omnipotent, just more advanced than the Federation.

No, they're not omnipotent. They're just able to travel to any point in time or space, alter reality, bring back the dead, destroy stars as an after effect of a war they're fighting in a completely different universe and plane of existence and survive the creation of the universe. No, they're not omnipotent, just very, very powerful.

[The MunchKING]

Implication alone don't justify a no-limit fallacy of "only Q can kill Q".

He did say the only thing "IN STAR TREK" that could kill a Q.

Although apperently a human witha Q weapon could do it, and we never really saw Q square off with any of the one-shot "gods" the Enterpises kept running across.

[CrossoverManiac]

He did say the only thing "IN STAR TREK" that could kill a Q.

Thank you for clarifying that.


Although apperently a human witha Q weapon could do it,

True, though the power to kill a Q is given to the humans by a Q.


and we never really saw Q square off with any of the one-shot "gods" the Enterpises kept running across.

Most of the one-shot gods never showed the raw power of the Q except for maybe Kevin Uxbridge, the being from "The Survivors" and the being that existed in a universe with no death ("Where Silence Has Lease").

[The MunchKING]

Most of the one-shot gods never showed the raw power of the Q except for maybe Kevin Uxbridge, the being from "The Survivors" and the being that existed in a universe with no death ("Where Silence Has Lease").

True, but as mentioned they were one-shots. Q took a whole lot of episodes to show more power than the aforementioned charecters.

[Lord of Denial]

Was Kevin the one that killed an entire race with a thought?

I think it was 50 Billion spread thru out the universe.

[CrossoverManiac]

True, but as mentioned they were one-shots. Q took a whole lot of episodes to show more power than the aforementioned charecters.

I can also assume that Blade has a bunch of powers like shapeshifting and mesmerism but it's not shown because he was only in a few movies. However, we have to go on what was seen, and until the other god-like beings from ST showed the scale of power the Q has, it has to be assumed that the Q is the top of the Trek food chain.

[CrossoverManiac]

Was Kevin the one that killed an entire race with a thought?

I think it was 50 Billion spread thru out the universe.

And it wasn't like he consciously used his powers to kill them. He had one bad idle thought and they all disappeared.

[Lord of Denial]

And it wasn't like he consciously used his powers to kill them. He had one bad idle thought and they all disappeared.

To me that is a pretty good feat. Any number of those 50 billion could have been 10's of thousands of light years away. Not quite up there with Thanos taking out half the universe but still very impressive.

[Gumbo Maximillian]

So how powerful are the Q?

They seem to have at least some level of reality warping.

The Capability to create sub-dimensions.

Able to ignore the rigors of space, hang out in the Enterprises anti-matter engine or whatever it is.

Hide out in the beginning of time, extremely likely that the Q can survive the big bang.

Interesting here, that there are multiple hiding places to avoid the Q, so they aren't omni-aware or whatever.

While that one Q wanted to die and was stated to have looked for ways earlier, apparently they have weapons that kill each other.

Which brings up the question; why didn't the Q just get one of those?

On the other hand; there is no reason to know if Q did mess with picards life or not.

Or if it wasn't all just a dream either, even the episode in question brought that up.

It is also possible to depower the Q as well; since that girl's parents became human and this other Q did as well on the voyager.

[CrossoverManiac]

Quote that if you will, because as far as i am remember he only put Picard in the area to create it.


But it wasn't galactic size.

Oh I'm sorry. One-fourth galactic size. Thanks for correcting me.


Which proves nothing, Q are often riddled with PIS.

Outright refusal to accept evidence for no other reason than sticking your fingers in your ears going 'blah blah blah I'm not listening' is not an acceptable counterargument. Try again.


I was refering to your claim they could protect Voyagers crew from it.

and


Which sense they never accually been in the big bang and just at it's time period doesn't prove anything.

"If I close my eyes and wish hard enough, then the argument will go away" isn't going to make it happen. If the Big Bang was a threat to a Q, Q2 would have stuck it out and let himself be destroyed in the universe's creation. If the Big Bang was a threat to a Q, DeLancie Q, who didn't have the death wish, wouldn't have hidden there. If the Big Bang was a threat to a Q, Q2 wouldn't have went there before (he referred to it as his old hiding place).


More like set up Picard to create the anti-time event. As it didn't appear until after(or before being anti-time) Picard had the place scanned. I really hate time things, so hard to discuss.

Thanks for admitting the Q have the knowledge to create anti-time since they, according to you, set up Picard to do it to himself in the first place.


Never said they weren't, just said theat the feat you put so much stock in has been duplicated by lesser powers.

Has a GL ever destroyed stars as collateral damage from a war being fought on a different plane of existence. If the Q civil war did this sort of devestation while being fought in another universe, the damage would have been far worse had it taken place in this one.


Implication alone don't justify a no-limit fallacy of "only Q can kill Q".

I said, 'the only thing in the Star Trek universe that can kill a Q is another Q'. Please actually read the post before spouting out phrases like 'no limits fallacy', and while you're at it, actually learn what a 'no limits fallacy' is. And if my statement wrong, prove it. Prove that a Q was killed in the ST-verse without involvement from another Q.


If the DNA mutations could be delt with it would work out fine. Just another PIS reason why Voyager never made it home early.

Do you even know what PIS is? The Salamander Drive is not an example of PIS but a convoluted plot device to keep Voyager from using the deus ex machina of the week to reach home.

[Farealmer]

About time you reply


Outright refusal to accept evidence for no other reason than sticking your fingers in your ears going 'blah blah blah I'm not listening' is not an acceptable counterargument. Try again.

OK, how about that regardless of whether it is an "old hiding" place since we never seen them in the explosion you have no proof they can survive it.


and

There no proof they can protect Voyager from it, not even hyperbole.


If the Big Bang was a threat to a Q, Q2 would have stuck it out and let himself be destroyed in the universe's creation. If the Big Bang was a threat to a Q, DeLancie Q, who didn't have the death wish, wouldn't have hidden there. If the Big Bang was a threat to a Q, Q2 wouldn't have went there before (he referred to it as his old hiding place).

Then why didn't he use a Q killing weapon, or considering he's done everything else appearently, make one?

But even if i gave you the big bang wasn't a threat(which i am not) it only applies to durability, not offensive power. Juggernaught can take alot but he can't dish out nearly that same damage. So prove Q is even capable of doing Big bang level damage, "surviving" one doesn't make you capable of creating one.


Thanks for admitting the Q have the knowledge to create anti-time since they, according to you, set up Picard to do it to himself in the first place.

Never said he couldn't just that he didn't in this case. Which is a moot point because the anti-time thing is a nothing to even a skyfathers damage output.


Has a GL ever destroyed stars as collateral damage from a war being fought on a different plane of existence. If the Q civil war did this sort of devestation while being fought in another universe, the damage would have been far worse had it taken place in this one.

I ain't seeing feats of them doing more. Just you claiming they can because of collateral supernovas. Which since we don't know how the weapons work to begin with cannot say whether they would be more or less powerful in normal space. And while were at it, explain how a Q weapon applies to a Q's personal power. Because apparently Q's cannot kill themselves or eachother unless they've been depowered. So Q weapon feats are not Q feats. We don't assume a human can shoot bullets just because a gun can.


Prove that a Q was killed in the ST-verse without involvement from another Q.

I don't need to, this isn't about what beat a Q this is about a Q's power tier and how he compares to things like the celestials or the LT.

And i am still waiting for those higher than supernova damage feats or ones that don't involve anti-time taking billions of years to even affect a quadrant. Because i ain't seeing them, just speculation that they are capable of more and supposed big bang level durability.

[CrossoverManiac]

About time you reply



OK, how about that regardless of whether it is an "old hiding" place since we never seen them in the explosion you have no proof they can survive it.

Q already said he hid there before when fleeing the continuum.


There no proof they can protect Voyager from it, not even hyperbole.

Seasons 2 through 7 of Voyager is proof that the Q protected Voyager from the Big Bang.


Then why didn't he use a Q killing weapon, or considering he's done everything else appearently, make one?

The Continuum imprisoned him before he had a chance to successfully commit suicide.


But even if i gave you the big bang wasn't a threat(which i am not)

Still sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending the evidence away?


it only applies to durability, not offensive power. Juggernaught can take alot but he can't dish out nearly that same damage.

There's a couple of issues of Thor and Hulk that will beg the differ as well as CBR posters.


So prove Q is even capable of doing Big bang level damage, "surviving" one doesn't make you capable of creating one.

[quote]Never said he couldn't just that he didn't in this case. Which is a moot point because the anti-time thing is a nothing to even a skyfathers damage output.

Are you 'misremembering' (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=4363131&postcount=28) your own posts?


[quote] So, yes, the Q can wipe out all life in a galaxy.

Prove it, because that anti-time thing wasn't created by him and we never seen it grow to galactic size so thats speculation.]

You certainly implied that Q couldn't create the anti-time rift and destroy all life in the galaxy.


I ain't seeing feats of them doing more. Just you claiming they can because of collateral supernovas. Which since we don't kniow how the weapons work to begin with cannot say whether they would be more or less powerful in normal space.

Because it makes so much sense that Q weapons can do more collateral damage to this universe from a different universe and plane of existence than if they used the weapons in ours :rolleyes:


I don't need to, this isn't about what beat a Q this is about a Q's power tier and how he compares to things like the celestials or the LT.

You made the assertion that I presented a 'no limits fallacy'. The burden of proof is on you to prove your assertion. So far you've done nothing but snipe at other people's arguments without offering proof of your own even for your own assertions. So, why don't you prove Q weapons have a lesser effect in this dimension than in the Continuum since you were the one who came up with it and magically cause more damage from an alternative dimension than it would in this dimesion.

[Farealmer]

Q already said he hid there before when fleeing the continuum.

Which proves onl;y that he was in the time period, not that he was in the explosion it'self, the explosion wasn't omnipresent. There is only so much matter and energy from it that covers a certian area.



Seasons 2 through 7 of Voyager is proof that the Q protected Voyager from the Big Bang.

No, it proved they got them out before the blast hit them. As told by Janeway when she said her ship couldn't survive the creation of the universe and for one of them to get them out.


The Continuum imprisoned him before he had a chance to successfully commit suicide.

Convenient


Still sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending the evidence away?

The big bang didn't cover that entire period of time, prove they were physically in the explosion and not just at the time period.


There's a couple of issues of Thor and Hulk that will beg the differ as well as CBR posters.

The point is durability=/=offensive power, that clear enough?


You certainly implied that Q couldn't create the anti-time rift and destroy all life in the galaxy.

No, i implied he couldn't destroy a galaxy with it.


Because it makes so much sense that Q weapons can do more collateral damage to this universe from a different universe and plane of existence than if they used the weapons in ours
Considering they are the weapons of extradimensional entities and not normal matter guns why not?


So far you've done nothing but snipe at other people's arguments without offering proof of your own even for your own assertions.
And all you've done is use hyperbole. And the assumption of things working a certain way(like Q weapons) with no evidence.


So, why don't you prove Q weapons have a lesser effect in this dimension than in the Continuum since you were the one who came up with it and magically cause more damage from an alternative dimension than it would in this dimesion.

How about you prove that they can. And while your at it...

explain how a Q weapon applies to a Q's personal power. Because apparently Q's cannot kill themselves or eachother unless they've been depowered. So Q weapon feats are not Q feats. We don't assume a human can shoot bullets just because a gun can.


bbut i still ain't seeing Q(not Q weapons) feats for creating even supernovas, let alone busting galaxies Odin style.

Lets break this down.
A) The supernova feat is for Q weapons which considering they can do things Q's cannot(Kill them) it's feats cannot be used for them.
B) The Anti-time feat was done by Picard and although the Q could in all likeyhood duplicate it, it took billions of years to ever affect a portion of the galaxy. In that amount of time Odin could have leveled dozens of universes a galaxy at a time.
C) The big bang feat is nebulus and even if it counts, is a feat of durability and not destructive power.
These are the main three point of debate. Either way nothing to suggest even Odin level power, let alone some of the outragous claims made earlier.

[CrossoverManiac]

Which proves onl;y that he was in the time period, not that he was in the explosion it'self, the explosion wasn't omnipresent. There is only so much matter and energy from it that covers a certian area.

In the Big Bang, everything, energy, matter, and space was created. The Big Bang was omnipresent because it was creating space-time it self. There's no space outside the Big Bang and its remnants (the universe).


No, it proved they got them out before the blast hit them. As told by Janeway when she said her ship couldn't survive the destruction of the universe and for one of them to get them out.

They were inside the universe, in other words, inside the Big Bang. They were at least being hit by the radiation coming from it since it would travel the fastest (light-speed).


Convenient

You're still having trouble accept any fact that comes your way you don't like.



The big bang didn't cover that entire period of time, prove they were physically in the explosion and not just at the time period.

From http://www.star-trek-voyager.net/a1episodes/ep34b.htm:

Torres: "This ship will not survive the formation of the cosmos."
Q: "Yes, but just think of the honour of having your DNA spread from one corner of the universe to the other. Why you could be the origin of the humanoid form."

I'm sure Torres was in a panic by the explosion that took place after they came :rolleyes:



The point is durability=/=offensive power.

Even though Q can kill other Q while the Big Bang can?


No, i implied he couldn't destroy a galaxy with it.




Considering they are the weapons of extradimensional entities and not normal matter guns why not?

Why speculate when the reason for the supernova is given (http://www.star-trek-voyager.net/a1episodes/ep53c.htm).

Female Q: "Try to wrap your minuscule mind around this: these supernovas are actually caused by spatial disruptions within the Continuum, the result of the war. Now, each tme a star implodes a negative-density false vacuum is created which actually sucks the surrounding matter into the Continuum."

and (http://www.star-trek-voyager.net/a1episodes/ep53c.htm)


Q: "It caused chaos and upheaval, because even though he was gone, his calls for freedom and individualism continued to echo in the ears of those who believed in his teachings, myself among them. I sounded the trumpet and carried the banner. Naturally, others followed. The forces of the status quo tried to crush once and for all, but we fought back, and now there's a cosmic struggle for supremacy. And the battle is spreading, causing hazardous repercussions throughout the galaxy."
Janeway: "The supernovas."
Q: "You might call them 'galactic crossfire'. It's terrible, isn't it? But it's also a wonderful opportunity."


The supernova are caused by stray shots fired in the Q civil war the punch a hole though dimensions and destroying stars.


And all you've done is use hyperbole. And the assumption of things working a certain way(like Q weapons) with no evidence.

And what evident did you offer? None, you never offer any evidence. I wait, I have evidence. You have theories that you don't even bother proving. You claim the Q's durability is greater than their offensive power with no proof. You claim that Q weapons cause more damage from within the continuum than from outside of it with no proof. Burden of proof is always on the person making the assertion.


How about you prove that they can. And while your at it...

The Q materialized their weapons through their powers. They couldn't have constructed the weapons and gave them their powers if they weren't Q.




Charming.[/QUOTE]

[Gordon Smith]

Yes, debating this thread in a civil manner like adults would be highly desirable, so I want to see all of us strive to do better in that regard. I certainly don't want to see an interesting thread closed, so let's try to remember that we're all here to have fun and not get worked up over a matter of no actual concrete importance.

~~Gordon

I guess we elected to go with the ''getting worked up over a matter of no actual concrete importance'' option.