This weeks column - 22 pages?

[dlairman]

IN this week's column, you said


Oddly, from a writer's perspective, 17 pages were easier to structure, as 8 or 11 page stories are.


I'm curious... you wnet through why the 22 page story is difficult, but I don't see why 17, 8 or 11 are any easier, and you didn't explain.

I can understand in general why a specific page limit can be a problem in storytelling, as any particular story might not need exactly that number of pages. But I would think that was true of any page count.

And if you look at the 22-page count (or any page count) as similar to Haiku - extremely regemented in structure and theme - then the issue doesn't seem to be such a big deal anyway.

OTOH, the strict page count works for the publisher and consumer by not providing monthly "sticker shock" that might jolt a habitual buyer out of their buying pattern.

Though I can think of quite a few times where a publisher added a page or two to fit a particular story on a occasional basis.

[NatGertler]

Except there's a reason that haiku is haiku -- it's a rhythm that works, that poets embraced because it brought about good stuff.
I've not worked much in 22 pages myself (some in 24, some in shorter bits), but the folks I talk to who have worked at that length often echo Steven's response to it. It's a difficult rhythm, for whatever reason.
I'm not saying that I agree with all of his response to what ought be done instead -- I think that a lot of comics are awkward these days because they're trying to be segments of a TPB in positioning and segments of a movie in storytelling, and that we might be better off if most of the comics tried to be good 24 pagers. But dislike of the 22 page form is not arbitrary.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I'm not annoyed reading a story of 22 pages as I am reading a story written for the trade, and I only read comics in trade or hardback form.
Way too many stories seem to have chapters or scenes that do nothing to further plot or further character.
A lot of this seems to be writers or artists trying to be more cinematic, and make it feel like a movie, ignoring that good movies don't waste any time at all, and everything goes towards furthering story or character, cramming as much in as they can.
It particuarly hurts when reading when you can see that a writer is basically just extending the length of the story to extend the length of the story.
An example I read a few months ago, which actually pulled me out of the story was an old Ultimate Spiderman story (a series I quite like, but wish that more happened in).
One issue ended with Doctor Octopus knocking Spiderman out in a fight. The next next issue started with Spiderman tied up on a plane. He talked to Doctor Octupus a bit, and Dr Octopus told him how he got there, a story that took up most of the issue, and was basically just how Doctor Octopus fought police to get to the airport, and how he took the pilot hostage.
Wouldn't the momentum of the arc have been better if we didn't see that?
Nothing was added to the overall story by showing the sequence, as the sequence showed nothing you couldn't have assumed happened for them to get to a plane.
It just bothers me that less is more and start each scene late and end it early have fallen by the wayside.
(then again my other pet peeve is writers who tell you things without showing you things, and although this often just to flesh out a character without fleshing them out, I guess I may be hard to please).

I'm more amazed by the old 17 page stories at how much more the writers managed to fit into one issue, than some writers can fit into three these days.
Maybe more creators need to start reading and studying their Essentials and Showcase.

[Paul Render]

I like the idea he mentioned of just writing a story however long it is and price it accordingly. I personally like the 32 page format for monthly issues. Maybe a 18 or 22 page main story and a backup to fill out the rest of the issue, a lot like they used to do back in the day. That way you'd be able to try out a new character or new creators without putting them in a brand new comic and it failing.

But also his link to the story about the new way of thinking about the state of the universe(s) was really cool. And to me seems much more in tune than a big bang which I personally always thought was flawed and was waiting for a scientific revision (since I myself could never prove any of my own personal theories, not being a mathmetician or scientist of any sort, only a philosopher in my own head), and now this may be it!

[plainbrownwraper]

I mentioned my love of anthologies in here before, and also mentioned that more short pieces would encourage artistic development - going to 32 art pages would be somewhere in the middle, it would encourage development of more short pieces, while giving writers a bit more flexibility for the main story.

I think going longer than 22 pages might make it harder for artists to hit monthly deadlines, it would shift the balance towards studio efforts and away from star artists - which I think is a selling point for the majors.

Adding some short stuff would add value, maybe help move more books - it would depend on whatever profit margin the majors were willing to sustain.

Personally, I miss the the old Black and White magazine format, Conan, Creepy, Eerie, etc. - it didn't need special racks for one thing, also more easily storable in standard magazine holders when you get them home.

I dunno what kind of costs would be involved in going to color, but you'd probobly have to go back to pulp to keep it affordable.

Still, it takes me longer to read one issue of Heavy Metal at Six bucks a pop (slick paper, 120 pages ±) than two pamphlets at Three bucks apiece, and I can skip around until I'm ready to concentrate on the denser or more outré material.

The extra real estate on the cover also attracted more painters I believe, i.e., the covers became more of selling point beyond just attention getting.

[plainbrownwraper]

Not sure how the new theory of the univers is appreciably different than big bang theory which theorized that expansion would halt at some point where the universe begins contracting, eventually coalescing into another singularity in an increasingly dense gravity well, whereupon the whole process repeats itself.

The dispute is still over whether there is enough mass for this to occur, or if it all just dissapates - but it would seem logical that if there was enough mass to begin with, there must be enough mass for a recycle - it's just that nobody is sure where it is yet.

Ah, well, I guess it helps if I read the link - multiple universes, lot's of little bangs - taking into account the fact that the universe is still expanding, even accelerating outward.

I happen to think the universe is torus shaped, i.e., space time is shaped like a big doughnut, so eventually everything will curve back around towards the hole in the middle. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

[khuxford]

I thought the bigger focus of the article was the "catch the typo" contest. Wait...there wasn't one? :)

I'm not normally a nitpicker about such things...but I can't recall if the column went more than 2 sentences without a typo this week.

Best one: "Are they so desperate to show they're tough on immortality in Connecticut?"

:D

Anyway...

[dancj]

Not sure how the new theory of the univers is appreciably different than big bang theory which theorized that expansion would halt at some point where the universe begins contracting, eventually coalescing into another singularity in an increasingly dense gravity well, whereupon the whole process repeats itself.
Yeah - the new theory Steven described fitted exactly what I thought was already the popular theory.

Best one: "Are they so desperate to show they're tough on immortality in Connecticut?"
"One thing about living in Conneticut I never could stomach, all the damn vampires."

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Maybe a 18 or 22 page main story and a backup to fill out the rest of the issue, a lot like they used to do back in the day. That way you'd be able to try out a new character or new creators without putting them in a brand new comic and it failing.


I'm really not sure why the back up dissapeared. I think a lot of the blame for that really has to go on the creators, for not being able to write good stories in them anymore.
Thanks to TPB's and Showcase and other such collections, I've recently read a lot of really good 8 page stories - some with packed quite full.
Grimjacks first appearances were in 8 page back ups, and they were great, and I don't think I have to point out to anyone that Goodwin and Simonson's Manhunter was done in 8 page backups.

Even if they aren't used to try out main characters, they could be used to flesh out supporting characters, or even tell a story using the main character that doesn't fit the tone of the rest of the book.

[DoctorDoom]

I prefer 22 pages for the 2.99 I'm paying. Sgave the price and I'll accept 17.

[NatGertler]

The direct market reader seems to one to get very speciic material (whether it is specific creators or specific characters) for his money, seeing back-up material as meaning just that much less of what they were buying. Similarly, anthologies don't do well in this market (in stark contrast to outside the direct market, where the top selling periodical comics are anthologies.)

[Steven Grant]

I'm really not sure why the back up dissapeared.

Because the market made it very clear it neither appreciated nor wanted them.

- Grant

[the goddamn batman]

Two words:

Casanova (http://www.newsarama.com/ImageComics/Casanova/01full/CNV01_full.html)

and

FELL (http://www.newsarama.com/ImageComics/Fell/Fell01Issue.htm)

Both 16 pages each (Cas #1 is a double sized issue, but is normally 16 pages, and #1 didn't cost more, despite it's double length).

[DoctorDoom]

Two words:

Casanova (http://www.newsarama.com/ImageComics/Casanova/01full/CNV01_full.html)

and

FELL (http://www.newsarama.com/ImageComics/Fell/Fell01Issue.htm)

Both 16 pages each (Cas #1 is a double sized issue, but is normally 16 pages, and #1 didn't cost more, despite it's double length).
Hrmmm..... Ive heard of them before. SOunds like good readin'~

[plainbrownwraper]

The direct market reader seems to one to get very speciic material (whether it is specific creators or specific characters) for his money, seeing back-up material as meaning just that much less of what they were buying. Similarly, anthologies don't do well in this market (in stark contrast to outside the direct market, where the top selling periodical comics are anthologies.)

I was thinking more along the lines of "anthology like" - i.e., put an origins story into an issue of X-Men or something, i.e., similarly themed - more pages, more flexability on story length.

[NatGertler]

I was thinking more along the lines of "anthology like" - i.e., put an origins story into an issue of X-Men or something, i.e., similarly themed - more pages, more flexability on story length.Yes, that's very much the sort of thing the direct market has shown a lack of interest in.

[the goddamn batman]

Hrmmm..... Ive heard of them before. SOunds like good readin'~

Both are great titles, and neither of them feel shorter by any means. Especially Casanova. IT's amazing the amount of story Matt Fraction gets in an issue.

[plainbrownwraper]

Yes, that's very much the sort of thing the direct market has shown a lack of interest in.

Well yeah, if you buy X-Men and get an F4 backup story, Space Ghost, or something else you didn't expect to see when you bought it - the idea here is to have X-Men backups stories in X-Men titles, Origins, Weapon X, etc., so that while there's two different stories, they're both X-Men, and the reader doesn't feel like you're just foisting old reprints off on them to drop the page count.

Some small percentage of readers may be attracted to different material, but i suspect that you're right that when the majority buys a certain title, those are the characters they expect to see.

[Steven Grant]

No, you'd be surprised. Even, say, a Cyclops backup in an issue of ASTONISHING X-MEN often meets with great resistance from the readership, who seem to follow the logic that if you can fill up ten pages with another story - and most often those stories have been done by newcomers with little reputation and obviously less experience (which is often viewed as less talent, fair assessment or not) - you can expand the main story ten pages and give them more of what they're buying the book for instead of foisting ten pages they don't want on them. The alternative suggestion is that the ten pages and the price be dropped.

For whatever reasons, "extra material" is most often seen as a penalty, not a bonus, like the publisher is trying to take advantage of the reader. I don't get it either, but...

- Grant

[NatGertler]

the idea here is to have X-Men backups stories in X-Men titles, Origins, Weapon X, etc., so that while there's two different stories, they're both X-Men, and the reader doesn't feel like you're just foisting old reprints off on them to drop the page count.Yes, I recognized what you were suggesting. That sort of thing fares poorly in the direct market.

[Paul McEnery]

Yes, I recognized what you were suggesting. That sort of thing fares poorly in the direct market.

I think one reason for that is that the supplementary material is usually kinda throwaway.

I can only think of one back-up feature in recent years -- and I'm going back a fair bit, even -- that I cared for was Giffen's Dr. Fate, which ran in the back of Flash, IIRC. I actually picked that up just for the Giffen.

But I don't see why Giant-Sized X-Men wouldn't work as a title, with several versions of the team running concurrently, and one special guest star one shot per issue. If there's one comic that cries out for the treatment...

Mind, you could do exactly the same with Justice League, picking up from the animated show. A continuing major story, with side stories on characters not currently spotlighted, every now and again crossing over into each other (oh, and the usual fan nonsense: vote the next member of the Justice League!).

But the key thing would be for the stories to not seem throwaway.

[stealthwise]

Marvel should take two or three or four x-titles, slam them together in one volume and trim the price a bit, while still publishing the separate titles one at a time. Take some time and see if people who are already buying all the books will take advantage of the price drop and convenient publishing format and pick it up instead of having several different separate issues.

It would work really well for when they have event tie-in crap like House of M or Civil War anyways.

DC could do the same with their Bat-titles and Superman books.

[NatGertler]

But I don't see why Giant-Sized X-Men wouldn't work as a title, with several versions of the team running concurrently, and one special guest star one shot per issue. If there's one comic that cries out for the treatment...That would be a book by people who buy All The X-Men Stuff... but it's not hard to come up with a book like that.

However, a lot of the X-Men comics purchases are by people who do not buy All Of The Stuff. (I'll raise my hand here; I buy the Joss Whedon book, but not the others.) They want to buy the vision of X-Men that appeals to them, and get a good bang for their buck out of it.

The X-Men had an anthology title, X-Men Unlimited. It didn't fare well, so it said farewell.

[badMike]

I can only think of one back-up feature in recent years -- and I'm going back a fair bit, even -- that I cared for was Giffen's Dr. Fate, which ran in the back of Flash, IIRC. I actually picked that up just for the Giffen.To go even further back, the old Lee/Kirby Thor used to run epic "Tales of Asgard" storylines in the back of the book that sometimes would tie into the main story. Those are great.

Backups seem to be easier to do in self-published/indie books. It was great when Peter Bagge used to run a series of one page strips by lesser known artists during the end days of Hate. And it was always cool when Dave Sim would plug a new series by an unknown (one of them was Bone at the time) and reprint a few pages. Plus, in Finder, Carla Speed McNeill would sometimes throw in a one-pager by a friend of hers about people living in a group home that always seemed like a bonus not a distraction.

[Paul McEnery]

That would be a book by people who buy All The X-Men Stuff... but it's not hard to come up with a book like that.

However, a lot of the X-Men comics purchases are by people who do not buy All Of The Stuff. (I'll raise my hand here; I buy the Joss Whedon book, but not the others.) They want to buy the vision of X-Men that appeals to them, and get a good bang for their buck out of it.

The X-Men had an anthology title, X-Men Unlimited. It didn't fare well, so it said farewell.

Well yeah, but with all due respect to the creators, the stories were exactly the throwaway kind that I was talking about.

You read X-Men (and Justice League) stories with the idea that something could happen in them that will seriously change things. No serious changes could ever have happened in Unlimited.

[the goddamn batman]

I just wish they still ran the Spider-ham back-ups like they did back in the day in Marvel Classic Tales or whatever it was called. That was great!

[Steven Grant]

Well yeah, but with all due respect to the creators, the stories were exactly the throwaway kind that I was talking about.

You read X-Men (and Justice League) stories with the idea that something could happen in them that will seriously change things. No serious changes could ever have happened in Unlimited.

So you'd like more things like the Speedball arc in the back of the CIVIL WARS sidebook, is that what you're saying?

- Grant

(I'm just having a go at you. But you're right; nothing's allowed to happen in books like X-MEN UNLIMITED - I'm stung, I tell you, stung by your characterization of the four or five stories I had in it, by the way - because it would impose unwelcome restrictions on the teams on the "real" X-titles. So everything has to be short, standalone stories, which, in the real world, would be exactly the sort of thing that should be done in that sort of book.)

[plainbrownwraper]

So you'd like more things like the Speedball arc in the back of the CIVIL WARS sidebook, is that what you're saying?

- Grant

(I'm just having a go at you. But you're right; nothing's allowed to happen in books like X-MEN UNLIMITED - I'm stung, I tell you, stung by your characterization of the four or five stories I had in it, by the way - because it would impose unwelcome restrictions on the teams on the "real" X-titles. So everything has to be short, standalone stories, which, in the real world, would be exactly the sort of thing that should be done in that sort of book.)

Seems to me that you could have stories that support the main story - there's always One or Two characters off on some seperate but critical mission - there may be personal or tangential issues, etc., that could be explored.

I suspect the resistance of the direct market has a lot to do with the throwaway quality of the back ups. While I'm sure it's more in Marvels interest to clear out some of the stuff cluttering up shelves, readers, I'm guessing, are very sensitive to such ploys, I know I am.

The backups would have to be scripted by the main writers most likely, or at least in tandem, and then you could throw the art to prospective artists - maybe even make it a "try out" section or something - assuming there are enough prospectives up to the challenge.

In short, the backups need to be at least as compelling as the main story, or yeah, readers are going to feel used.

Not a perfect solution, but not status quo at least.

[Steven Grant]

Seems to me that you could have stories that support the main story - there's always One or Two characters off on some seperate but critical mission - there may be personal or tangential issues, etc., that could be explored.

But this is also often felt to be the province of the main creative team on the book, and restrictive of them, at least in the offices, and since the main creative team are the talent you want to keep happiest if you're an editor.

Of course, it could always be done with the same writer and a different artist, which would streamline things a bit. But backup features and short stories have traditionally been considered training grounds for up-and-comers, and there is a need for some sort of training ground; even if you're cherry-picking the best talent from other comics operations, you still need somewhere to break them into yours, and bearing all the weight on high-profile projects frequently isn't the best way to do it.


I suspect the resistance of the direct market has a lot to do with the throwaway quality of the back ups. While I'm sure it's more in Marvels interest to clear out some of the stuff cluttering up shelves, readers, I'm guessing, are very sensitive to such ploys, I know I am.

At least in the case of X-MEN UNLIMITED, most of those stories were commissioned specifically for the book.


The backups would have to be scripted by the main writers most likely, or at least in tandem, and then you could throw the art to prospective artists - maybe even make it a "try out" section or something - assuming there are enough prospectives up to the challenge.

Mmm... in many cases fans are at least as sensitive to the artist as the writer, and using backups as "tryouts" for prospective artists will turn many of them off as well, due to the impression you're spitting substandard art at them just for the sake of filling up a few pages. I think in most cases the backup artist has to be, at minimum, of similar caliber and style to the main artist to satisfy most fans, and an artist that good will most likely already be working on their own book. The fanboy catch-22, really.

- Grant

[Paul McEnery]

Mmm... in many cases fans are at least as sensitive to the artist as the writer, and using backups as "tryouts" for prospective artists will turn many of them off as well, due to the impression you're spitting substandard art at them just for the sake of filling up a few pages.

As opposed to every single issue of Extreme X-Men?

[bartl]

Mmm... in many cases fans are at least as sensitive to the artist as the writer, and using backups as "tryouts" for prospective artists will turn many of them off as well, due to the impression you're spitting substandard art at them just for the sake of filling up a few pages. I think in most cases the backup artist has to be, at minimum, of similar caliber and style to the main artist to satisfy most fans, and an artist that good will most likely already be working on their own book. The fanboy catch-22, really.
Except if the tryout artist/writer turns hot, and here you are, holding his first work for Marvel/DC. I may be a BIT sensitive about the issue, because the first and only time I actually pitched a series (and had the incredible luck to have the editor actually pay atention and ask for more), was for Malibu Ultraverse's traveling anthology (it fell through when Marvel bought Malibu).

[plainbrownwraper]

Mmm... in many cases fans are at least as sensitive to the artist as the writer, and using backups as "tryouts" for prospective artists will turn many of them off as well, due to the impression you're spitting substandard art at them just for the sake of filling up a few pages. I think in most cases the backup artist has to be, at minimum, of similar caliber and style to the main artist to satisfy most fans, and an artist that good will most likely already be working on their own book. The fanboy catch-22, really.

- Grant
Then there are artists like Brian Bolland started doing covers because he was too slow to keep up with a monthly, rather than becasue he didn't like doing it - probobly other industry vets interested in doing short pieces, and having a whole month to do 8 ages or less would help keep quality high.

I cannot address these other issues, if it doesnt work, it doesn't work - you're back to increasing or decreasing the page count of the main story.

[Steven Grant]

Thing is, the politics of fandom are such now that an artist who regularly only works on backup features, regardless of the quality of the work, becomes generally regarded as a substandard artist, while an artist who regularly only works on covers becomes regarded as a superior, premium quality artist. At least until fans/readers were re-educated to think otherwise, and whoever was drawing those backups in the meantime would bear the brunt of it, unless they already had a well-established reputation. And cover art often pays better for less work than a standard comics page.

- Grant

[plainbrownwraper]

Fucking fanboys, lol. :evilangry