"Civil War" #7 Sent To Printers - It's Over

[andy khouri]

Marvel editor Tom Brevoort announces this morning "Civil War's" completion and shipment to the printers. Brevroot also offered fans a sneak peak at the series' final panel.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=9569

[Magneto Rocks]

Looks like a Helicarrier bridge to me...

And on the horizon...

A new dawn for Marvel?
A Hulk landing?

I wonder...

[ForEverAncien]

None of these above...it will continue into March, with other titles. That is when I will consider then and there...it is over.
Looks like a Helicarrier bridge to me...

And on the horizon...

A new dawn for Marvel?
A Hulk landing?

I wonder...

[TotalWorldDomination]

Yay! It's over! Except for Civil War: The Initiative, the Epilogue. Oh and Civil War: Fallen Son, the other epilogue. Oh and Avengers: the Initiative, the big new launching port for the Marvel Universe. And all the post CW miniseries. And the Back in Black stuff. And all the Initiative tie-ins. And then there’s world war hulk that will launch in 3 months or so. And all the tie ins for that. Oh and wasn’t there a rumor about an X-Men event spinning out of this? Then add that to. And the Tie-ins.


But other then that… It’s over. I guess.:rolleyes:

[Thursaiz]

I think that is Tony Stark and Maria Hill looking at a new dawn...of titles coming out.

[XPac]

But other then that… It’s over. I guess.:rolleyes:

It's not completely over... nor should any GOOD story ever be. A comic book is an on-going process afterall.

I don't think we should crucify Breevort for his choice of wording here. For the marvel staff I'm sure this big cross over event was a HUGE amount of work. There must be some level of relief that the actual Civil War event is over and things can return to whatever resembles normal at Marvel.

They still have more stories to tell of course, but it's doubtful anything if this scope or magnitude will be on the horizen anytime soon.

[Xanrn]

So we still getting it on the 21st?

Maybe a Week or so earlier.

[XPac]

Looks like a Helicarrier bridge to me...

And on the horizon...

A new dawn for Marvel?
A Hulk landing?

I wonder...

I'm assuming it's Tony and Hill on the Hellicarrier.

What they're watching I would guess is either the cliched sunset/sunrise or something getting blown up. Which it is I suppose depends on the tone they want to end Civil War in... hopefull or dark.

[nickfury187]

They are wondering what the world will be like without Captain America:(

[Sandy Hausler]

It's not completely over... nor should any GOOD story ever be.


No good story should have an end? I've got to agree with you on this one, XPac. And this certainly has not been a good story. Not even close, in my opinion.

Sandy Hausler

[XPac]

No good story should have an end? I've got to agree with you on this one, XPac. And this certainly has not been a good story. Not even close, in my opinion.

Sandy Hausler

To add to what I wrote, I meant no good story should really have an end in an on-going comicbook. A good story should leave material that can and will be built on for the next story.

Civil War wasn't an event for the sake of having an event (like Atlastis Attacks or something), it was done with a narrative purpose of creating a situation more stories organically stem from.

As for whether the story itself was good or not... that's of course subjective. But I think it's fair to say both storywise and saleswise, it did what it was made to do.

[streator]

glad to hear it's coming out soon.

the included image does look like two figures looking out at something from the s.h.i.e.l.d. helicarrier.

i'm thinking a sunset.

[jackolover]

Without colours, it could also be the 42 installation heading for the explosion zone.

Like everyone says, a good story shouldn't just end abruptly, and finish. There should be undetermined loose ends that can be elaborated upon, and with Initiative, maybe there will be stories that have to be resolved, one day, when Captain America again regaines the land of the free. It don't look like that's going to happen in the near future, considering Bush's Trillion Dollar push for War. But one day, a man shall arise, who has a different vision for America, and then we'll see Steve Rogers re-emerge as the (stoyan?) of Americanism.

Bravo Civil War, for bringing voice and imagery to the (passion?) in America.

[superfriend]

Without colours, it could also be the 42 installation heading for the explosion zone.

Like everyone says, a good story shouldn't just end abruptly, and finish. There should be undetermined loose ends that can be elaborated upon, and with Initiative, maybe there will be stories that have to be resolved, one day, when Captain America again regaines the land of the free. It don't look like that's going to happen in the near future, considering Bush's Trillion Dollar push for War. But one day, a man shall arise, who has a different vision for America, and then we'll see Steve Rogers re-emerge as the (stoyan?) of Americanism.

Bravo Civil War, for bringing voice and imagery to the (passion?) in America.

The President's approval rating is reaching historic lows. To carry the analogy forward, we should begin to see the public turn on Tony, Reed and the Registration Act and call for it's elimination.

[Exo]

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6241/itsoverod6.png

It could be the underside of a carrier. Glad it's finally over.

[Magneto Rocks]

The President's approval rating is reaching historic lows. To carry the analogy forward, we should begin to see the public turn on Tony, Reed and the Registration Act and call for it's elimination.

Or maybe we should see the public support them more considering there are at least as many analogies to be made between the pros and the Democrats as the pros and the Republicans- if not MORE.

Many- not all, but MANY- forummers simply equate the pros with the Republicans because they don#t like the Republicans.

[Tobias March]

Many- not all, but MANY- forummers simply equate the pros with the Republicans because they don#t like the Republicans.

Yeah remember that time the Democrats founded a detention centre for prisoners off the mainland and denied them a right to a trial through various legal quibblings (applied also to the 'means of extracting information')?

Yes yes, fun times.

[superfriend]

Or maybe we should see the public support them more considering there are at least as many analogies to be made between the pros and the Democrats as the pros and the Republicans- if not MORE.

Many- not all, but MANY- forummers simply equate the pros with the Republicans because they don#t like the Republicans.

Enlighten me.

Here's what I'm seeing...

9-11 = Stamford
War in Iraq = Registration Act
Speedball = Gitmo incident

I guess I'd see it a bit different if Joe Quesada didn't actually draw these comparisons on NPR and The Colbert Report himself.

[Magneto Rocks]

That's one way of viewing it. Far from the other way.

I'm sorry, the big analogy used by the pros is Gun Registration. Yeah, that Republican enormous support for Gun Registration bowled me over. Along with that Big Government intrusion in lives represented by this act.

I'm a liberal. I'm a democrat. I'm pro-registration. Proof enough that the two are EASILY reconcilable.

Oh and btw:

War in Iraq = Registration Act

Not the Patriot Act.

Oh no.

The war in Iraq.

You just destroyed any shreds of credibility you may have had.

[superfriend]

That's one way of viewing it. Far from the other way.

I'm sorry, the big analogy used by the pros is Gun Registration. Yeah, that Republican enormous support for Gun Registration bowled me over. Along with that Big Government intrusion in lives represented by this act.

I'm a liberal. I'm a democrat. I'm pro-registration. Proof enough that the two are EASILY reconcilable.

Gun Registration doesn't address the human rights issue adequately I don't think. The X-Men have always been analagous to homosexuals or minorities as they didn't choose to be the way they are. Lots of superpowered individuals are in the same boat.

Oh and btw:



Not the Patriot Act.

Oh no.

The war in Iraq.

You just destroyed any shreds of credibility you may have had.

I'm sorry. I have no idea why you think this. I don't understand what you're getting at.

edit: Still not sure why my credibility in talking about fictional wars between superheroes is gone in your opinion but what I meant by War in Iraq was simply every catastrophic, kneejerk reaction to the 9-11 disaster that's been proven to be completely wrong and foolhardy.

[Magneto Rocks]

Gun Registration doesn't address the human rights issue adequately I don't think. The X-Men have always been analagous to homosexuals or minorities as they didn't choose to be the way they are. Lots of superpowered individuals are in the same boat.

Hardly. The super-humans don't have to do anything unless they want to. This isn't a racist law, it isn' any particular RACE that are being targetted, it's people with these powers. Mutants are analogous to homosexuals. Superhumans in general are not- and this Registration isn't the same as mutant registration.

I'm sorry. I have no idea why you think this. I don't understand what you're getting at.

The Iraq war baears no similarity whatsoever with the Registration Act. I could buy- and disagree with- you saying the Patriot Act, but the IRaq war is WAAAAAAAAY out there.

[superfriend]

Fair enough Magsey.

Of course I don't engage in these little debates to change your mind...I think that ship has sailed...you're pretty into the idea...but really, what are you going to do when the Reg Act is no more?

Do you think it's going to be around forever? Or are you just gaming a bit...y'know, having fun with this story?

[Magneto Rocks]

Fair enough Magsey.

Of course I don't engage in these little debates to change your mind...I think that ship has sailed...you're pretty into the idea..


...Well it certainly hasn't stopped Macq, HardingPrime, XPac and about seventy per cent of this forum from trying ;)

..But seriously, this may be the first time ever I've had a debate cut short on this CBR Civil War board because we both know we won't change the others mind. I mean normally we both know that but debate fruitlessly anyway.

.but really, what are you going to do when the Reg Act is no more?

Do you think it's going to be around forever? Or are you just gaming a bit...y'know, having fun with this story?

Hopefully it lasts a good long time since it creates good story potential. As for whether I'm gaming...

...Little from column A, little from Column B ;)

[jackolover]

The President's approval rating is reaching historic lows. To carry the analogy forward, we should begin to see the public turn on Tony, Reed and the Registration Act and call for it's elimination.

Yes. I think that analogy must follow, but, like the real thing, the powers that be will struggle and resist that taming for all they are worth. So it may be a long time before the Presidents power is wittled away, and conversely, Tony and Reeds influence is diluted by time.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Last time I checked the SHRA was indeed and allegory for the Patriot Act.

And let's not forget that the Patriot Act was passed with overwhelming support from both sides of the aisle- so there is no clear Republicans=Pros, democrats=Antis.

Historically speaking, the Democrats are much closer to the Pro-registration sides actions- only the most modern incarnation of Republicanism would agree with the Pro-Reg side. Democrats believe that the government can be used for good, and have a penchant for government regulatory programs that are designed to protect the lives of citizens at the perceived loss of personal freedoms (Like Gun Registration).

On the flip side, Historically republicans have belived that the government is at best idiotic and at worst deliberately harmful and is trying to tell people what they should think and how they should act (thus the opposition to Government Schools and the like). This parallels nicely with Steve's "Government telling us who the bad guys are" shtick.

Of course in modern times, you can find clear evidence for the opposite. It all depends on WHAT KIND of democrat and republican you are.

[superfriend]

Well MR, you've managed to make it more fun for me than the actual story at times.

You've done the Pro-reges proud and you're a good sport. Here's to #7...and I expect the catalyst for this sort've debate to carry forward for a while longer anyway.

You may've won the battle but you haven't won the war. ;) :p

[Magneto Rocks]

TWD- yes, it was created as an allegory for the PAtriot Act. But it doesn't have to be seen that way. An excellent story- which I believe CW is, can be read a thousand ways and all of them are equally valid.

Superfriend- I really do eagerly look forward to our debate after #7. Bulbasteve and I- with some help from a few brave souls- united against the forum, one last time ;)

I have no doubt we'll give you a run for your money ;)

Oh and Superfriend, welcome to the list of Pro_Reggers who are not only good at arguing but also GREAT sports and a genuine pleasure to debate with.

[superfriend]

Last time I checked the SHRA was indeed and allegory for the Patriot Act.

And let's not forget that the Patriot Act was passed with overwhelming support from both sides of the aisle- so there is no clear Republicans=Pros, democrats=Antis.

Historically speaking, the Democrats are much closer to the Pro-registration sides actions- only the most modern incarnation of Republicanism would agree with the Pro-Reg side. Democrats believe that the government can be used for good, and have a penchant for government regulatory programs that are designed to protect the lives of citizens at the perceived loss of personal freedoms (Like Gun Registration).

On the flip side, Historically republicans have belived that the government is at best idiotic and at worst deliberately harmful and is trying to tell people what they should think and how they should act (thus the opposition to Government Schools and the like). This parallels nicely with Steve's "Government telling us who the bad guys are" shtick.

Of course in modern times, you can find clear evidence for the opposite. It all depends on WHAT KIND of democrat and republican you are.

For the record, I don't disagree. The flaw was in not communicating myself properly. Apologies for the confusion.

[Capt USA]

That's one way of viewing it. Far from the other way.

I'm sorry, the big analogy used by the pros is Gun Registration. Yeah, that Republican enormous support for Gun Registration bowled me over. Along with that Big Government intrusion in lives represented by this act.

I'm a liberal. I'm a democrat. I'm pro-registration. Proof enough that the two are EASILY reconcilable.

Oh and btw:



Not the Patriot Act.

Oh no.

The war in Iraq.

You just destroyed any shreds of credibility you may have had.


the problem is that the way the act was written and enforced goes contradictory to any proposed weapons registration in the history of the U.S. It is conceivable that the concept of registration would be supported by "liberals" but the way this story was written it was more of a facistics version of current government in power(at the time, republicans) than it was a simple 'registration requirement'. This was always intended to be Bush republican = pro registration and Democrats = anti-registration (as to true republicans I would imagine most would be anti-registration for the reasons you mentioned - big government that would be required to make this work)

[Calybos]

The pro-registration side is not simply Republican, it's neocon/Bushdrone at its worst.

The neocon-Bush movement is solidly behind drastic increases in governmental police powers and authority (especially the executive), lack of accountability, abolition of checks and balances, declaring needless "emergencies" to justify emergency wartime powers, illegal detention, and all the rest.

Actual conservatives and Republicans would be (and many are) appalled at such things. No, the pro-reg side is clearly the Bushies and specifically the Bushies.

[StoneGold]

Now we can stop complaining about it being late and start complaining about World War Hulk being late.

[XPac]

Hmmm... I've never seen much value in labelling something republican or democrat because frankly I've always thought the difference between a republican and democrat is so minute it's almost pointless.

Looking at the ENTIRE political spectrum, democrats are convervative and republicans are slightly more conservative.

But either way, it's clear the president of MU is clearly for the registration, and it's fair to assume he's a republican. It is obviously Bush, so I imagine there will be some parallels between Bush handling Iraq and the registration. Not saying it's the same thing... but it's such a hot topic in culture right now I can't imagine marvel writers not using it.

[bulbasteve]

Superfriend- I really do eagerly look forward to our debate after #7. Bulbasteve and I- with some help from a few brave souls- united against the forum, one last time ;)

Crisis on Infinite Forums! Will we all stand united in the rubble of another 50 page debate thread to stop the evil moderators from destroying the forum?

you're pretty into the idea...but really, what are you going to do when the Reg Act is no more?

Do you think it's going to be around forever? Or are you just gaming a bit...y'know, having fun with this story?

I don't know, write a letter to our fictional congressman? I don't see any reason why it can't be around for a good long time, like SHIELD it is a pretty easy plot device for a bunch of stories...and you know how lazy a lot of writers are.

Sure some of it is a game, afterall the tag line is "Whose side are you on?", and who are we to refuse what Marvel tells us? :p It's pretty unique in the ability to have fun with it, where else is there a persistent and ever changing entirely fictional politics going on and one with a lot of punching and lasers?

the problem is that the way the act was written and enforced goes contradictory to any proposed weapons registration in the history of the U.S. It is conceivable that the concept of registration would be supported by "liberals" but the way this story was written it was more of a facistics version of current government in power(at the time, republicans) than it was a simple 'registration requirement'. This was always intended to be Bush republican = pro registration and Democrats = anti-registration (as to true republicans I would imagine most would be anti-registration for the reasons you mentioned - big government that would be required to make this work)

I don't see how you can say how it was intended to be. Afterall Millar himself is pro-reg! Is it really so shocking liberals agree with neo-cons? It happens ALL the time, just look at things like immigration or china policy.

Gun registration is just the closest real world analogy people can think of, the fact is superhuman vigilantes don't actually exist in the real world. To think that people wouldn't be against them would mean there is a bigger divide between traditional liberals and you damn hippies than I thought :D

[RazzleDazzle]

The record states that the worst abuse of goverment (besides Vietnam which is a rather intresting cluster mess from both sides) in us History happened during Republican adminstrations such as Nixon/Watergate Bush II/911!Iraq, Hardling/Teapot Dome and Reagan/Iran Contra.

Food for thought

[gunnerfan69]

The record states that the worst abuse of goverment (besides Vietnam which is a rather intresting cluster mess from both sides) in us History happened during Republican adminstrations such as Nixon/Watergate Bush II/911!Iraq, Hardling/Teapot Dome and Reagan/Iran Contra.

Food for thought

Are you really this naive? Oh the democrats are stalwarts when it comes to ethics...its time you grow up mate. They are ALL crooks, liars, cheats and often worse.

[BigBoss]

dang it all comes down to this. wow just civil war has been a god send. now for the best part the aftermath spinoffs.

[ForEverAncien]

-Just watches in amazement, on how the thread went from a announcement of a ending series...to politicial ideologies-

Unreal.

[Thursaiz]

From the angle of that image, it kinda looks like the Hellicarrier going into hyperspace...maybe Tony is a Sith? ;)

[agrich]

I think it's obviously a tiny snow globe in the hands of the evil Miriam Sharpe.

[MAK15]

Now we can stop complaining about it being late and start complaining about World War Hulk being late.

*drum set noise*
zing!

[Magneto Rocks]

-Just watches in amazement, on how the thread went from a announcement of a ending series...to politicial ideologies-

Unreal.

I posted in it.

XPac posted in it.

Bulbasteve posted in it.

This thread was never going to end well.

[Sandy Hausler]

To add to what I wrote, I meant no good story should really have an end in an on-going comicbook. A good story should leave material that can and will be built on for the next story.

Civil War wasn't an event for the sake of having an event (like Atlastis Attacks or something), it was done with a narrative purpose of creating a situation more stories organically stem from.

As for whether the story itself was good or not... that's of course subjective. But I think it's fair to say both storywise and saleswise, it did what it was made to do.


All right. We are in agreement. Of course, my view of CW is subjective. In critiquing the concept not how its written (which, of course, varies from book to book).

[Brian M.]

The record states that the worst abuse of goverment (besides Vietnam which is a rather intresting cluster mess from both sides) in us History happened during Republican adminstrations such as Nixon/Watergate Bush II/911!Iraq, Hardling/Teapot Dome and Reagan/Iran Contra.

Food for thought

Clinton/North Korea isn't a big thing either.

Also...Bush and 9/11? Oh that's right, the government caused 9/11. My bad.

[Sandy Hausler]

Or maybe we should see the public support them more considering there are at least as many analogies to be made between the pros and the Democrats as the pros and the Republicans- if not MORE.

Many- not all, but MANY- forummers simply equate the pros with the Republicans because they don#t like the Republicans.

Uh, so what's your point?<g>

Sandy Hausler

[Sandy Hausler]

That's one way of viewing it. Far from the other way.

I'm sorry, the big analogy used by the pros is Gun Registration. Yeah, that Republican enormous support for Gun Registration bowled me over. Along with that Big Government intrusion in lives represented by this act.

I'm a liberal. I'm a democrat. I'm pro-registration. Proof enough that the two are EASILY reconcilable.

Oh and btw:



Not the Patriot Act.

Oh no.

The war in Iraq.

You just destroyed any shreds of credibility you may have had.


It's interesting how we fight a war against a real menace, certainly to his own people, if not the rest of the world, and this country is split down the middle.

In CW, the country is at "war" (of course, it's not a real war) with its greatest heroes, and there seems to be no response from the public.

Just strikes me as strange. That's a story that should be told in Frontline -- the resistence to CW. Instead, the whole issue is basically ignored, at least in any books I read.

Sandy Hausler

[Sandy Hausler]

Mutants are analogous to homosexuals. Superhumans in general are not- and this Registration isn't the same as mutant registration.

Just curious. What's the practical difference between the FF and the X-Men? Or Spider-Man. And the Registraion Act goes even further than the Registration Act (at least to my understanding) -- and I'm not talking about the draft. If, instead of registering, Ironman chose to never put on his armor again, he would be in violation of the Act because the Act defines not only powers that are intrinsic to a person, but also weapons that can be used as a super power.

But in my opinion both registration acts stink!

Sandy Hausler

[Castaway]

I may be in the minority, but the whole Civil War super-arc has sucked me right back into the 616 Marvel Universe... whether necessary or not, the "crossovers" have got me to purchase books I otherwise would never have spent $$ on... you win Marvel!

[Magneto Rocks]

I may be in the minority, but the whole Civil War super-arc has sucked me right back into the 616 Marvel Universe... whether necessary or not, the "crossovers" have got me to purchase books I otherwise would never have spent $$ on... you win Marvel!

Despite what the loud minority would have you believe, sales figures indicate you're in a colossal majority.

[scottv]

I am just looking forward to seeing what happens!

[killerbass]

Are you really this naive? Oh the democrats are stalwarts when it comes to ethics...its time you grow up mate. They are ALL crooks, liars, cheats and often worse.

Hyperbole alert. Hyperbole alert. Hyperbole alert.

[MongoSlade]

I may be in the minority, but the whole Civil War super-arc has sucked me right back into the 616 Marvel Universe... whether necessary or not, the "crossovers" have got me to purchase books I otherwise would never have spent $$ on... you win Marvel!
Same here. Prior to Civil War, I would have never purchased any of the following titles...

1) Iron Man
2) Black Panther
3) Wolverine
4) New Avengers
5) Captain America

Marvel succeeded in making me give a damn about Iron Man -- that, in itself, should be considered a major coup for them.

:)

[XPac]

Same here. Prior to Civil War, I would have never purchased any of the following titles...

1) Iron Man
2) Black Panther
3) Wolverine
4) New Avengers
5) Captain America

Marvel succeeded in making me give a damn about Iron Man -- that, in itself, should be considered a major coup for them.

:)

Yeah... Civil War got me to check out a few titles I wouldn't have checked out prior to this too.

I frankly wasn't a big fan of the Ms. Marvel book... but the Civil War tie-ins really got me into that title.

And the only reason I looked at Blade was because of the Civil War tie in as well...and I acutally liked it.

It's definately got me to pick up a few titles here and there I normally would not have. Now it's a question of whether or not that interest will last post CW.

[Eallison]

Despite what the loud minority would have you believe, sales figures indicate you're in a colossal majority.

Because, as we all know, the 90's were quite simply the Golden Age of comics.

Why? Because sales were way up, what with the multiple covers, the holograms, the Image-esque artwork, and the speculator market.

Okay, for the sarcasm-impaired;

Sales do NOT equal quality. Period. End of sentence.

Now, it (sales) is pretty much the only indicator Marvel can really use (also because they seem to be completely tone-deaf when it comes to criticism), but it isn't a particularly informative one, either.

Great, Civil War is selling copies that, while impressive by today's standards, still aren't very good compared to the 70's or 80's.

Is it because people love the story? Is it because (IMHO far more likely) the collector/completist mindset and fan loyalty to character(s) have influenced the sales (and because, to one extent or another, CW has impacted the entire line)? Is it from some perverse sense of glee of watching what some equate to a train wreck? Only the people buying the comics know for sure.

Then again, only the truly ignorant should be automatically assuming sales numbers equal quality. Sales mean x number of books sold.

And that's all.

Take it and run.

[XPac]

Because, as we all know, the 90's were quite simply the Golden Age of comics.

Why? Because sales were way up, what with the multiple covers, the holograms, the Image-esque artwork, and the speculator market.

Okay, for the sarcasm-impaired;

Sales do NOT equal quality. Period. End of sentence.

Now, it (sales) is pretty much the only indicator Marvel can really use (also because they seem to be completely tone-deaf when it comes to criticism), but it isn't a particularly informative one, either.

Great, Civil War is selling copies that, while impressive by today's standards, still aren't very good compared to the 70's or 80's.

Is it because people love the story? Is it because (IMHO far more likely) the collector/completist mindset and fan loyalty to character(s) have influenced the sales (and because, to one extent or another, CW has impacted the entire line)? Is it from some perverse sense of glee of watching what some equate to a train wreck? Only the people buying the comics know for sure.

Then again, only the truly ignorant should be automatically assuming sales numbers equal quality. Sales mean x number of books sold.

And that's all.

Take it and run.

Quality is ultimately a subjective standard.

But I do nonetheless think from Marvel's standpoint it's fair to assume if people are buying the book, they are enjoying the product. Joe Q will be the first to say that if you don't like it, don't buy it. And that's certainly fair.

And if people were dumb enough to buy books they don't like, they I'm not sure they have much of a right to complain about it.

[Eallison]

Quality is ultimately a subjective standard.

But I do nonetheless think from Marvel's standpoint it's fair to assume if people are buying the book, they are enjoying the product. Joe Q will be the first to say that if you don't like it, don't buy it. And that's certainly fair.

And if people were dumb enough to buy books they don't like, they I'm not sure they have much of a right to complain about it.

Which is fine, but my only point is, sales does not translate to quality. And you do not seem to disagree with that, which is also fine. Yes, Marvel can certainly read it that way. I simply said one does not equal the other (as the 90's well proves).

Your final comment is actually an interesting one. Not so much for what you say, but the implication;

Personally, I think ANYONE who has an understanding of the story can complain about it or comment on it, should they so wish. However, those who read the story without paying have been called thieves, for "Byrne-stealing" the story, and cheating their local comic shop. Given various comments on these boards, it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario.

Read the story without buying -- you're a crook.

BUY the book, and read, so you can argue intelligently and with full information -- get asked why you bought the book, if you didn't like it. Or the even better "if you don't like it, leave" comments.

Don't buy the book, and go by online reviews or talking to someone who did -- get told you don't have the right to comment, because you didn't actually read it.

Basically, it seems that unless you buy the book, and love it, you should shut up.

And I disagree in the strongest possible terms (and I am not saying your comment specifically says that) with that idea. Personally, I have been getting the story because;

1. I was suckered by the marketing, back when the story was touted as being mature, about there being merely shades of gray, etc, and thought it would be a good story.

2. I'd already committed to my LCS that I would be getting it. While I could certainly back out, I made a commitment, and want to fulfill it. And for a seven-issue mini, it's not too major an investment of time or money.

3. I would LIKE to be able to speak informatively about the story. That way, I KNOW when people are spinning BS, or creatively interpreting events, because I actually READ the same book.

4. Playing to the "completist/loyalty" angle, I LIKE a lot of these characters, and was interested in what this "world-changing" event would do to them. Sure, I'd heard it all before (hell, I survived the 90's), but with all the hype it was getting, maybe it would be different (stupid though it sounded).

So, there's one sale from the 250k to 300k that doesn't care for it. A drop in the bucket? Absolutely. But I am certain mine is not the only voice of discontent :) Sure, Joey Q has my $3.99 THIS time, but he won't have it for World War Hulk, just like he didn't have it for House of M or Decimation, either ...

Take it and run.

[XPac]

Which is fine, but my only point is, sales does not translate to quality. And you do not seem to disagree with that, which is also fine. Yes, Marvel can certainly read it that way. I simply said one does not equal the other (as the 90's well proves).

Your final comment is actually an interesting one. Not so much for what you say, but the implication;

Personally, I think ANYONE who has an understanding of the story can complain about it or comment on it, should they so wish. However, those who read the story without paying have been called thieves, for "Byrne-stealing" the story, and cheating their local comic shop. Given various comments on these boards, it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario.

Read the story without buying -- you're a crook.

BUY the book, and read, so you can argue intelligently and with full information -- get asked why you bought the book, if you didn't like it. Or the even better "if you don't like it, leave" comments.

Don't buy the book, and go by online reviews or talking to someone who did -- get told you don't have the right to comment, because you didn't actually read it.

Basically, it seems that unless you buy the book, and love it, you should shut up.

And I disagree in the strongest possible terms (and I am not saying your comment specifically says that) with that idea. Personally, I have been getting the story because;

1. I was suckered by the marketing, back when the story was touted as being mature, about there being merely shades of gray, etc, and thought it would be a good story.

2. I'd already committed to my LCS that I would be getting it. While I could certainly back out, I made a commitment, and want to fulfill it. And for a seven-issue mini, it's not too major an investment of time or money.

3. I would LIKE to be able to speak informatively about the story. That way, I KNOW when people are spinning BS, or creatively interpreting events, because I actually READ the same book.

4. Playing to the "completist/loyalty" angle, I LIKE a lot of these characters, and was interested in what this "world-changing" event would do to them. Sure, I'd heard it all before (hell, I survived the 90's), but with all the hype it was getting, maybe it would be different (stupid though it sounded).

So, there's one sale from the 250k to 300k that doesn't care for it. A drop in the bucket? Absolutely. But I am certain mine is not the only voice of discontent :) Sure, Joey Q has my $3.99 THIS time, but he won't have it for World War Hulk, just like he didn't have it for House of M or Decimation, either ...

Take it and run.


I complain about books I don't buy all the time... that's not the point.

If you choose to buy a book that you knowingly know you don't like, then you can't blame marvel. That's YOUR problem. Buy books you like, and you'll have a book you like. Buy books you don't like, and you have no one to blame but yourself.

On the issue of Byrne stealing... by view is simple. If the store doesn't allow you to read until you purchase, then yes you are stealing. But if they do (and the store I go to has couches out so you can freaking sit and read the books, so my conscience is pretty clear on the stealing part), then you're golden.

I realize that not everyone has that option... but nonetheless if you know you're not enjoying the series then don't buy it. Wait for the trade. Or buy it if you want, but realize that it's more your fault than Marvels because they tell you all the time... if you don't like it, don't buy it. And you shouldn't even need Marvel to tell you that. It's just common sense.

I didn't like the TV show Joey (even though I liked Friends). So I didn't continue watching it every week then going online to some Joey board to complain about how terrible a show it is. But if people do choose to do that... it's their decision and ultimately their problem.

[Keith_Martineau]

Nope. Sales don't equal quality.

But the sales aren't inflated the way they were in the 90's. LCS's don't report one person buying 10, 20 copies of one book. We don't see people trying to sell crap online.
And the sales slowly increase. On average, the books that are going up in sales, are doing so slowly. New Avengers didn't see a major sales drop when the variant covers ended. It's sales remained strong.

Marvel has seen a steady, strong growth in sales, something that they are sustaining.

So.

Nope. Sales don't equal quality.
But they're still a pretty damn good indicator that Marvel is doing something right.

[XPac]

I also think the term "qualtiy" is kind of a tricky term in the entertainment business.

I read Marvel Adventures Avengers. I don't necessarily consider it a quality book in that I wouldn't nominate it for any Eisner Awards. Storywise it's got the depth of a tortilla chip. But to me it's light hearted fun... so I buy it.

Not everything has to be the next Watchman. If a book entertains people enough to get bought, then it did it's job. And that's all it really needs to do.

[agrich]

I'm not even sure anyone actually said that sales equal quality. Even taking Magneto Rocks' comment at face value, all he's saying is that the sales indicate that Civil War and the tie-ins are POPULAR, which they are. Scores of movies and TV shows prove that popularity doesn't equal quality, but sales can be said to translate into popularity -- even if it's not always for reasons of great quality.

[Jmacq1]

Just look at how many people complain about the Star Wars prequels vs. how much money they've made. ;)

[sugarmanandrobin]

And what's the point of complaining about a book anyway? We should all just let Marvel have their way. Because if we do, then maybe as an epilogue, they'll finally have the Civil War: Power-Pack tie in I've been dreaming of for months. Come on, guys. I gotta have my Power Pack!!! PLLEEAASSEEEE!!!!

Rememeber...Marvel Happy = loveable powered up runts taking on government fascism!!!

[xarathos]

Despite what the loud minority would have you believe, sales figures indicate you're in a colossal majority.

I guess I'm in the minority here. I can't stand any of this Civil War stuff. It's sloppy story telling and I'm not sure it was a good idea to begin with. I actually stopped reading any title that was connected with it. Clone Thor, Unmasked Spidey, Killer Reed Richards: should never have even left the idea stage.

It's pretty sad the editor has to make an announcement like this and show such a shotty looking picture. Lame.

[Magneto Rocks]

I guess I'm in the minority here. I can't stand any of this Civil War stuff. It's sloppy story telling and I'm not sure it was a good idea to begin with. I actually stopped reading any title that was connected with it. Clone Thor, Unmasked Spidey, Killer Reed Richards: should never have even left the idea stage.

It's pretty sad the editor has to make an announcement like this and show such a shotty looking picture. Lame.

Firstly- Nah, I'd say it's about 50/50 lovers and haters on this site, but overall the definite majority loves it. You are of course entitled to your opinion

However I don't understand how you can say it's "sad" that this announcement has to be made- this is done frequently for big projects. And as for calling the picture shotty looking- even 90% of the haters agree McNiven's art is beautiful.

[Sijo]

Civil War (the series) will be over for me once I read it, thank you. Announcing that it's printed does nothing for me other than remind me how late it is.

I also have no plans on picking up any follow-ups, at least not just BECAUSE they're CW followups. Only if they have stories I like will I pick them up.

[Niro]

I may be in the minority, but the whole Civil War super-arc has sucked me right back into the 616 Marvel Universe... whether necessary or not, the "crossovers" have got me to purchase books I otherwise would never have spent $$ on... you win Marvel!

ya same here. It got me to pick up x-factor, iron man, fantastic four, cable and deadpool, blade, punisher war journal and new avengers.

Although i've dropped x-factor, blade, and new avengers. And i'll be dropping iron man after all this CW stuff is over.

But i'll be definitely carrying on with cable and deadpool, and also FF and punisher for a while

[Killer Bee]

lawls...only issue 7 is over. Civil War over?

::Looks at Marvel Diamond ship list::

Not by a long shot.

[Heraclevs]

Yeah remember that time the Democrats founded a detention centre for prisoners off the mainland and denied them a right to a trial through various legal quibblings (applied also to the 'means of extracting information')?

Yes yes, fun times.

Yes... it was the time of Japanese-American detention camps during WWII. The liberals do not have a case to throw stones, regardless of how self-righteous they have become, or of how many mistakes the current administration has made.

- Romans 9

[Magneto Rocks]

Yes... it was the time of Japanese-American detention camps during WWII. The liberals do not have a case to throw stones, regardless of how self-righteous they have become, or of how many mistakes the current administration has made.

- Romans 9

Right because I'm sure if the conservatives had been in power it would NEVER have happened.

[Heraclevs]

Right because I'm sure if the conservatives had been in power it would NEVER have happened.

You've completely missed the point. If a crime is being committed, both sides of the aisle are guilty.

[BenjaminAndrewMoore]

Yes... it was the time of Japanese-American detention camps during WWII. The liberals do not have a case to throw stones, regardless of how self-righteous they have become, or of how many mistakes the current administration has made.

- Romans 9

Uh, what? That was nigh on 70 years ago. Any case the Democrats have to throw stones at Republicans currently existing has nothing to do with what happened then. If we can hold Republicans and Democrats responsible for things they did YEARS AGO, when they were COMPLETELY SEPARATE HUMAN BEINGS, then all Republicans are spyings, stealing, watergating felons. See? That kind of logic doesn't make any damn sense.

Oh, and by the way, 'Democrat' does not necessarily mean "liberal," and the same goes with 'Republicans' and "conservatives." For example, Abraham Lincoln was a Republican in a time when Republicans were more liberal than Democrats.

[bulbasteve]

Uh, what? That was nigh on 70 years ago.

You make it sound like one of the major characters was not around during that and never used his status as THE national icon to stop it :p

[killerbass]

Uh, what? That was nigh on 70 years ago. Any case the Democrats have to throw stones at Republicans currently existing has nothing to do with what happened then. If we can hold Republicans and Democrats responsible for things they did YEARS AGO, when they were COMPLETELY SEPARATE HUMAN BEINGS, then all Republicans are spyings, stealing, watergating felons. See? That kind of logic doesn't make any damn sense.

Oh, and by the way, 'Democrat' does not necessarily mean "liberal," and the same goes with 'Republicans' and "conservatives." For example, Abraham Lincoln was a Republican in a time when Republicans were more liberal than Democrats.

Hey, quit making sense and using actual history. You're gonna confuse the hell out of people. :D

--Tom

[Heraclevs]

Uh, what? That was nigh on 70 years ago. Any case the Democrats have to throw stones at Republicans currently existing has nothing to do with what happened then. If we can hold Republicans and Democrats responsible for things they did YEARS AGO, when they were COMPLETELY SEPARATE HUMAN BEINGS, then all Republicans are spyings, stealing, watergating felons. See? That kind of logic doesn't make any damn sense.

Oh, and by the way, 'Democrat' does not necessarily mean "liberal," and the same goes with 'Republicans' and "conservatives." For example, Abraham Lincoln was a Republican in a time when Republicans were more liberal than Democrats.


My point is that, regardless of party affiliation, mistakes will be made (although hindsight is 20/20) even when the overall best interests of the nation are being considered. And try to distance yourselves from the past all you like, whether 70 years, 700 years, or 7000 years... you are no better or worse than what came before. Thus, the lessons and actions of the past, whether committed by Bush, Clinton, Nixon, or Roosevelt, will always remain relevant.



- Romans 9

[killerbass]

Yes... it was the time of Japanese-American detention camps during WWII. The liberals do not have a case to throw stones, regardless of how self-righteous they have become, or of how many mistakes the current administration has made.

- Romans 9

This was your point.

Republicans throw stones all the time. I think the term "swift boating" was inspired by the actions of Republicans.

So, if I understand correctly -- Democrats are the ones that need to not be self-righteous.

OK, all kidding aside -- I get your point. But this is politics. The name of the game, whether you or I like it, is making yourself look better than your opposition.

Peace,
Tom

[ilovemoney]

i would have thought it would have come out by now...maybe its hush hush!:confused:

[MAK15]

most likely a preview might come out next week.
or tommorow.

[Magneto Rocks]

Well we'll definitely get a preview of panels, probably a day or so beforehand.

And we'll get the first few pages up at PCS.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Comes out next week, right?

[ilovemoney]

yes Feb 21st, can't wait....it better make my jaw drop!!!

[ForEverAncien]

And if it doesn't make your jaw drop...then what?

yes Feb 21st, can't wait....it better make my jaw drop!!!

[ilovemoney]

then i'll not be a happy camper, this has been built up so much us fans deserve to be satisfied for all the delays we had to put up with.

[Capt Hunter]

and a new beginning for the Marvel Universe. When Civil War first appeared, I was very sceptical about the premise. I just didn't see how it was going to play out. Captain America vs. Iron Man. These guys are respected collegues and friends. I see how their differences in the past might rear up (see Armor Wars) but going to actual war with one another, I couldn't see the trees thru the forest.

I feel that Marvel has lived up to the hype and the promises about deconstructing the Universe worked. I see so many new stories coming our way in the coming years. We have World War Hulk looming. We have Annihilation 2 in the works. A Mutant Crossover this fall and something huge for next year... maybe...

Hopefully Civil War #7 wows even the most jaded fan.

[Kevinroc]

I expect Civil War #7 to divide people and a mass amount of arguments that revolve around the ending.

By this point, it is obvious that Tony Stark "wins" the Civil War. We have seen registration is still the law of the land in post-CW books.

We'll basically see people want the healing to begin or people so angry that they want someone to kick Tony Stark's butt (#1 contender for that seems to be Hulk).

The question over how other writers build on the ending of Civil War. How will the Iron Man writers try to make Tony Stark seem like a hero again when so many view him as a villain or a huge bastard?

How will Captain America regain the confidence of the people in the Marvel Universe after leading the resistence?

Will people be cheering for Hulk to kick Iron Man's ass?

[the Dagman]

Will people be cheering for Hulk to kick Iron Man's ass?

Put me down for a yes.

[Rf2j]

Will people be cheering for Hulk to kick Iron Man's ass?

That's for sure!

[Karl H]

Will people be cheering for Hulk to kick Iron Man's ass?

I will but I reserve judgement until I read CW#7.

I really just hope this isn't a big disappointment...

I want to be shocked damnit!!!

[Will.S]

I expect Civil War #7 to divide people and a mass amount of arguments that revolve around the ending.
Given how massive the fight is supposed to be since it's supposed to be THE battle of the year I see it kind of equal to the JLA vs Avengers books in that regard.

Expectations are so high that even if characters are handled even slightly bad Millar is going to get alot of criticism for it so he and Steve have to deliver one hell of a fight and satisfying ending enough to make it all worthwhile. Still, I can't wait to see it as Millar is usually brilliant in action scenes so this will be the bit test to see if he can handle a fight including so many 616 characters.

[Rf2j]

I wont be disappointed since my expectations are near zero. I just read again old CW issues and TASM issues and... well... It's been half a year of disappointing events ("good guys" getting hammered) and I simply cannot imagine this one issue turning the tide. Not with all the Thunderbolts mess going on and so...

You cannot have good guys losing for too long, it's not fun to read anymore when you are waiting for a payback that never comes.

[Magneto Rocks]

Hell, CW7 coming out is just a formality.

A minimum of 65% of those who hate Civil War have already decided that 7 is the worst comic they will ever read, it is rubbish, and 'though they went into it with an open mind, they absoloutely despised every page of it, and Mark Millar should be burnt in effigy. They'll deny that thyeir minds wee made up.

A further group will automatically be against it as soon as the character gets killed, no matter WHAT satus the character has, from Spider-Man to Battlestar. They'll deny it was this character's death alone.

A further group will claim they love it no matter what it's like. And deny it.

And then there are that small core- less than 10% of readers -of which I know I'm not included (I have never ever read a Mark Millar comic I didn't adore) who have not made up their mind and will read this openly, weighing it based on strengths and weaknesses.

The verdict on CW7 has basially been rendered already.

Oh, and if Captain America were to beat up on defenceless orphan children and Iron Man were to foil him, the Internet wold claim Iron Man was an evil, despicable monster.

[JoeMD]

I really don't understand why people hate htis series so much. I've tried ot understand where they are coming from but even with the Spidey unmasking and all the rest of it all I get from this series is exitement. Bring on #7!

[xarathos]

I really don't understand why people hate htis series so much. I've tried ot understand where they are coming from but even with the Spidey unmasking and all the rest of it all I get from this series is exitement. Bring on #7!

Civil war is a good example of things I don't like about Marvel now. From now on, it's going to be 7 issue stories just so they can fit in the trade. I don't care about the trade. The story was so disjointed from the start that I wanted it to be over at the first issue.

To give a good indication of how disapointing 7 will be, they're already using the same plots as two years ago in New Avengers.

[saintsaucey]

No, they are following up on and open ended story from two years ago. Ronin?echo was left behind to keep an eye on the hand and to report back to the new avengers

[Green Goblin]

Any idea when its going to be in the U.K

[Brock]

Any idea when its going to be in the U.K

I would think this Thursday (22/02/07) , unless there's a shipping delay I don't know about?

[Erik Lehnsherr]

They will probably save the Tony punk out for when Hulk returns to earth but which top hero is going to die?