Hawkman/ Hawkgirl sales

[Captain Jim]

Okay, I've got a question for some of you who track sales figures. Everybody keeps saying that the Hawkgirl sales are so low, the book's in danger of cancellation. So what I want to know is, was that also true back when the title was Hawkman, or have the sales actually plummeted since One Year Later?

[protege]

Off the top of my head, i think it sort of bottomed out at a certain point, and started climbing back up.

[shaxper]

It's been in trouble for a long time. Going back even two years, you'll find months where the title was selling under 20,000 copies. I honestly wonder how it survived this long.

[Carter Hall]

Here's a link to DC's sales for December. If you scroll down it'll show the sales for Hawkgirl, which jumped for a bit with OYL, but has been on a steady decline since. I don't know if it was ever this bad when it was Hawkman, but it wasn't much better, honestly. Which is too bad, because I think these characters are great but it's tough to market B and C list characters in their own titles. But it also doesn't help when creative teams start putting out junk for people to buy (see Hawkgirl: The Maw).

http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/01/29/dc-comics-month-to-month-sales-december-2006/

I do like this new guy Renato Arlem, but unless something drastic happens, I wouldn't be surprised to see it canceled within a year.

[stealthwise]

From what I've read, maybe in Lying in the Gutters?, it has already been cancelled.

[Suzanne]

Sales were never spectacular, but I don't remember them hitting this low. I'd hate to see this book end, but cancelling it and starting from scratch may be the only way to save it.

[Carter Hall]

Sales were never spectacular, but I don't remember them hitting this low. I'd hate to see this book end, but cancelling it and starting from scratch may be the only way to save it.

I agree. I think cancelling it and starting from scratch in a year or two would be this book's best bet. Though I'd hate to see it turn into another Aquaman (relaunching his title every three years or so).

[stealthwise]

I agree. I think cancelling it and starting from scratch in a year or two would be this book's best bet. Though I'd hate to see it turn into another Aquaman (relaunching his title every three years or so).

Might be the way to go, or even launching a set of mini-series every year or so. I just don't think that the fanbase is there, not only for the Hawks, but for a ton of other mid-level DC and Marvel characters.

[Suzanne]

I agree. I think cancelling it and starting from scratch in a year or two would be this book's best bet. Though I'd hate to see it turn into another Aquaman (relaunching his title every three years or so).So would I. An annual mini-series is fine as a last resort, but I'd rather have a monthly. If it does relaunch, how much of a clean slate it could start with? Afterall, with HG's sales so low, I wonder if they'll keep Kendra around (at least after her affair with Roy Harper) much longer....

[Sean Walsh]

Sales were in the 20K area just before OYL and the name change (which is odd since those last few pre-OYL issues were directly tied with the Rann-Thanagar mini).

Sales bounced up with #50, but since then have dropped, like everything else OYL, and are now well below any other sales in the title's history.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Last I saw Hawkman's sales were in the 25,000-35,000 range from when they ran that Hawkman dies stunt. Gray & Palmoitti were doing d--- fine job on this series and its like the book was slowly coming back. Then DC pulled a sales stunt and it backfired , badly.

But yeah the last run of the series seemingly was driving the book back to a healthy sales spot and DC ruined it.

[Carter Hall]

Last I saw Hawkman's sales were in the 25,000-35,000 range from when they ran that Hawkman dies stunt. Gray & Palmoitti were doing d--- fine job on this series and its like the book was slowly coming back. Then DC pulled a sales stunt and it backfired , badly.

But yeah the last run of the series seemingly was driving the book back to a healthy sales spot and DC ruined it.

I think that's a great assessment. And it seems that DC acknowledges that the run was good by bringing Joe Bennett (the artist on that whole run) back to do issues 37,38, as well as the backup "Origin of Hawkman and Hawkgirl" story in 52. I loved all that stuff!

If it ain't broke...

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I think that's a great assessment. And it seems that DC acknowledges that the run was good by bringing Joe Bennett (the artist on that whole run) back to do issues 37,38, as well as the backup "Origin of Hawkman and Hawkgirl" story in 52. I loved all that stuff!

If it ain't broke...

They need to re-team that creative team and hope they can lure fans back. Cleary it wasn't broke and DC screwed up huge on Hawkman.

[marvelboi77]

I like the character Hawkgirl, and I started buying it when it turned to Hawkgirl. I bought 4 of the issues since it changed. I think the art is terrible, and the story is just ok. With the price of comics these days I stopped buying books I don't enjoy even though I like the character.

[jerrymcl89]

Under Palmiotti and Grey, sales had sunk into the 19-20K range, but then began to bounce back, partly due to IC tie-ins, and also, I think, partly because the story was good. I believe the last pre-OYL issue was in the 25K range. 'Hawkgirl' initially sold in the mid 30s, but is now in the 18K range, so either cancellation, restoration of Hawkman as the main character, or a change of writers would seem to be justified. Personally, I've found that if I go back and read Simonson's stuff all at once, it's pretty good, but in 24-page monthly installations, it is pretty disappointing.

[joint venture]

Recently I saw a rendition of Hawkgirl in a JLA cover by Arthur Adams, and boy, if that guy drew Kendra monthly we wouldn'nt have these problems.

But yeah, a shame she's going doing.

Maybe a good, decent writer?

[TROUBLEZ]

the covers aren't helping

[the4thpip]

They should never have given her those implants.

[Carter Hall]

the covers aren't helping

Y'know, I agree. I'm glad Howard Chaykin is no longer drawing the book, but (and I know I may be going over the top by saying this, but) I don't even like Howard Chaykin doing the covers. They look hideous, and it gives a terrible first impression to the casual fan. If I weren't a regular reader, I'd be glancing over that book without a second thought.

Not that that's where the sales problems are coming from, but still...

[mrpoizun]

As far as I know, Joe Bennet isn't doing anything, so why not bring him back? His artwork is absolutely top notch.
.........And as soon as I write that, I see in the April solicits he's doing Nightwing Annual 2 and Checkmate with Jack Jadson. Have to say I much prefer Ruy Jose's inks on Hawkman, but glad JB is keeping busy.

[Carter Hall]

As far as I know, Joe Bennet isn't doing anything, so why not bring him back? His artwork is absolutely top notch.
.........And as soon as I write that, I see in the April solicits he's doing Nightwing Annual 2 and Checkmate with Jack Jadson. Have to say I much prefer Ruy Jose's inks on Hawkman, but glad JB is keeping busy.

Not to mention he's drawing for 52 right now.

But you're right- he and Ruy Jose did some awesome work together.

[Gingold]

Chaykin's art was great. I liked the idea of what Simonson was trying to do with the book, to give it a pulpy, mysterious feel, but the execution has been flawed.

[Ryan Day]

Recently I saw a rendition of Hawkgirl in a JLA cover by Arthur Adams, and boy, if that guy drew Kendra monthly we wouldn'nt have these problems.


There would be plenty of problems if Art Adams tried to draw anything monthly.

(though I agree, it's a lovely fantasy)

[the4thpip]

Maybe the book could change its title to Hawkman and Hawkgirl, 17 pages of main story and a backup Hawkgirl solo feature with art by Art?

[Belfast_Fanboy]

was never really a big hawkman/girl fan but as with most titles (like green lantern) a restart migt do it good or even a year or 2 of 6 issue minis and then a relaunch? its worked with a host of titles so far?

[Babylon23]

Hawkman sales figures from CBG (to put things in perspective):

Hawkman 1 - 52,300
Hawkman 10 - 34,200
Hawkman 25 - 34,100 (final Johns/Morales/Bair issue)
Hawkman 40 - 19,900
Hawkman 44 - 22,600
Hawkman 48 - 24,300 (Rann-Thanagar War tie-in may have resulted in higher sales)
Hawkgirl 50 - 34,700 (OYL sales boost)
Hawkgirl 59 - 18,100 (December 2006)

So, sales started strong, and remained fairly consistent during the Johns era. Sales dropped off once Johns left, but picked up once Palmiotti/Grey gained momentum. The book's had a big dropoff in the last few months.

[guyjo]

Chaykin's art was great. I liked the idea of what Simonson was trying to do with the book, to give it a pulpy, mysterious feel, but the execution has been flawed.

Chaykin's art was okay for this book, but I prefer the current art.
I agree 100% that it is the execution of the storyline which is flawed. Hawkman and Hawkgirl are incredible characters with a mineload of story potential, and it's just not being used properly.
Seeing how other writers have taken less-than-popular characters and made them successful, I must paraphrase an old theater and movie idiom:
"There are no bad characters, just bad writers".
Not to say Simonson is a bad writer, as he has written good stories before. Maybe he just isn't the writer for the Hawks...

[Stressfactor]

I loved Gray and Palmiotti's run and would love to see them back... Heck, I'd like to see both Hawks back in the same title!

While I liked what Geoff Johns was trying to do -- the 'he loves her but she doesn't love him' bit and the idea of the curse keeping them apart but in the end this is a bad scenario... Just like all those TV series' that have the sexual tension between the male and female leads as the core of the series, this scenario gets stale, the audience gets bored and there is really only one workable solution -- have them get together. Once they get together the sexual tension is gone and, since they built the entire series on that, they've got nothing left to stand on.

Problem is everyone knows Hawkman and Hawkgirl are supposed to be a couple -- in darn near EVERY comic book incarnation of the two they've been a couple. Everybody knows if they're not a couple NOW they will be eventually. The creation of the "curse" made for an interesting stubling block but now writers are kind of stuck with it.

Looking out at the comic book market I think they did overlook a niche here -- a superhero husband/wife team. There's not that many out there really.... Reed and Sue Richards... Cyclops and Jean (at least when she's not dead)... They did have a lot of potential to mine this idea of a husband and wife who are in danger, who essentially "work" together and then live together too...

Doesn't look like they'll be putting them back together anytime soon though... Meltzer has Kendra in the JLA and Johns has Hawkman in the JSA and Johns has gone on record as saying this will cause some friction between the two...

[Captain Jim]

I loved Gray and Palmiotti's run and would love to see them back... Heck, I'd like to see both Hawks back in the same title!

Given the sales figures that Babylon 23 just quoted, it would appear that turning things back over to Gray and Palmiotti would not be a bad idea. Short of that, this title's day may indeed be limited. Which is a shame, given the strong start that Johns gave it.

In Simonson's defense, however, I'm sure that the idea of transforming the title from Hawkman to Hawkgirl was editorially driven.

[Sean Walsh]

In Simonson's defense, however, I'm sure that the idea of transforming the title from Hawkman to Hawkgirl was editorially driven.

I'm guessing it was done to put more of a solo spotlight on her now that she's a member of the new JLA.

Also guessing they'll do a big creative shuffle instead of cancelling outright - though with sales under 20K, that's gonna be a big gamble that may not pay off.

[Babylon23]

Given the sales figures that Babylon 23 just quoted, it would appear that turning things back over to Gray and Palmiotti would not be a bad idea. Short of that, this title's day may indeed be limited. Which is a shame, given the strong start that Johns gave it.

In Simonson's defense, however, I'm sure that the idea of transforming the title from Hawkman to Hawkgirl was editorially driven.

I'd say the easiest thing to do to boost sales would be the return of Hawkman. As much as I like Kendra, my main reason for buying the book was to see the Hawkman/Hawkgirl team.

[Ryan Day]

Hawkman sales figures from CBG (to put things in perspective):

Hawkman 1 - 52,300
Hawkman 10 - 34,200
Hawkman 25 - 34,100 (final Johns/Morales/Bair issue)
Hawkman 40 - 19,900
Hawkman 44 - 22,600
Hawkman 48 - 24,300 (Rann-Thanagar War tie-in may have resulted in higher sales)
Hawkgirl 50 - 34,700 (OYL sales boost)
Hawkgirl 59 - 18,100 (December 2006)


I think ultimate perspective - at least from DC's end - is that Hawkman sales have been mediocre at best ever since the series launched. Even Johns, who many people love, was just doing 34,100 at the end of his run. People complained about taking Palmiotti & Grey off the book, but they topped out at 24,300 - and that's with the benefit of a major crossover. The big OYL boost still only brought the book up into "okay" sales, and that didn't even last very long.

This is a book that, if all things break perfectly, might sell 30,000 copies a month. The consequence of that is that DC is constantly going to be monkeying around with the approach, trying to find anything to boost the sales for one of their most recognizeable characters.

Frankly, I think they should give it to John Ostrander. That may be a minority opinion, however.

[Jmacq1]

Having recently purchased the Hawkman TPBs, I must say that I thought the title was pretty good. Admittedly there are several issues that aren't covered in the TPBs, so I can't really comment on those, but Johns and Palmiotti/Gray both were entertaining.

But it's not like we won't be seeing Hawkman in JSA and Hawkgirl in JLA. Probably with plenty of crossover in both.

Though it does seem kind of a shame that Meltzer looks like he's going to ignore the progress the Carter/Kendra relationship made and have her hook up with Arsenal.

[astronato]

Long story short, I returned to reading comics 2 years ago after a very long lapse, came onto the Hawkman series during Palmottti and Grey. I enjoyed it enough to go and buy all the back issues back to issue 1.

I like Walt Simonson...a lot. I like Howard Chaykin too, I used to read American Flagg and enjoyed his recent City of Tomorrow. Even though I liked the fast paced action serial movie feel of the book during P&G's run, I could have adjusted my expectations for the slower paced, noirish style Mr Simonson went with. I just did not dig taking Carter Hall out of the picture. Hawkgirl is ok and I might have even kept on reading but it just seemed that at the time, too many characters I like were replaced in some way. I didn't like that, so I stopped picking up Hawkgirl (and other dc books) after a few issues. Sorry if that's fan boy. The story was fine but the character I didn't care so much for and the art was wonky in places.

I hope they relaunch this book in a years time (or less) as Hawkman.

Again, sorry to be negative but I wish Dan Didio would go.

[Zel]

I'm not sure why they switched the book over to Hawkgirl only. I think it might have been due to the popularity of the animated Hawkgirl. Unfortunately they got Howard 'silicon fantasy' Chaykin to draw it and Simonson phoned it in with a slow, boring story. So instead of the strong, kick ass animated Hawkgirl, you got Sparrowgirl with implants. And the sales reflected it.

[guyjo]

I'm not sure why they switched the book over to Hawkgirl only. I think it might have been due to the popularity of the animated Hawkgirl. Unfortunately they got Howard 'silicon fantasy' Chaykin to draw it and Simonson phoned it in with a slow, boring story. So instead of the strong, kick ass animated Hawkgirl, you got Sparrowgirl with implants. And the sales reflected it.

Amen.
Could not have said it better...

[lonesomefool]

I had been reading the book during John's run and during the Gray/Palmiotti run and enjoyed both, but after a couple of issues of Simonson and Chaykin, i dropped it. The writing was too old fashioned and the art was ugly. DC made it pretty easy to drop the book, though they have been doing that a lot lately.

[Babylon23]

I think ultimate perspective - at least from DC's end - is that Hawkman sales have been mediocre at best ever since the series launched. Even Johns, who many people love, was just doing 34,100 at the end of his run.

Putting things into perspective, 34,100 was still a pretty decent figure back in 2004. Overall, it was DC's 12th best selling title. The only books outselling Hawkman at the time were the Superman and Batman titles, Titan, JLA, JSA, Outsiders and Flash. Obviously, Hawkman's never going to be selling the same numbers as JLA, Batman or Superman.

Still, I wouldn't mind seeing Ostrander on any book.

[guyjo]

I have stayed Hawkgirl since OYL started. Endured the agony of the first arc. Prayed for the return of Hawkman. Since his return, still meh. I may drop the Hawks soon if things don't change.

[the4thpip]

I think ultimate perspective - at least from DC's end - is that Hawkman sales have been mediocre at best ever since the series launched. Even Johns, who many people love, was just doing 34,100 at the end of his run. People complained about taking Palmiotti & Grey off the book, but they topped out at 24,300 - and that's with the benefit of a major crossover. The big OYL boost still only brought the book up into "okay" sales, and that didn't even last very long.

This is a book that, if all things break perfectly, might sell 30,000 copies a month. The consequence of that is that DC is constantly going to be monkeying around with the approach, trying to find anything to boost the sales for one of their most recognizeable characters.

Frankly, I think they should give it to John Ostrander. That may be a minority opinion, however.

I think a good 30,000 is the best a Hawkman book could do these days. The character does just not have a bigger fan base. Remember that he didn't even have a book from 1996 to 2002 (other than a 3 issue out-of-continuity mini). Heck, he wasn't even alive for that long. Nor from 1988 to 1990. Heck, not even from 1970 to 1985 when comics did great. He got 3 issues of Showcase and a few back-ups in World's Finest (where the Superman/Batman lead carried the book) back then. He is hardly a "big gun" as cool a character as I think he is.

[Carter Hall]

I have stayed Hawkgirl since OYL started. Endured the agony of the first arc. Prayed for the return of Hawkman. Since his return, still meh. I may drop the Hawks soon if things don't change.

Exactly how I feel, unfortunately.

[40yearoldnovafan]

I have loved the series from the beginning. I really enjoyed when Bennett came in as the artist and the Hawks began to get closer. I did not like how they separated the Hawks and "killed" Hawkman. When that happened and the Golden Eagle replaced Carter - well, that wasn't good. It rocked when Carter came back and kicked the Golden Eagle's tail feathers. I was stoked, probably like many fans.

But then the One Year Later tragedy. The art sucked. I like Howard Chaykin on his own stuff, but not on this title. Like one of you stated previously, DC should not have allowed him to continue to do the cover work once he left the title. Fans were not happy with the art and having Chaykin's covers made it seem like his art was still inside.

Now we are doing the retread story of the Hawks not being able to get together because of the curse. WHAT!!! Didn't we just read that story line. Simonson should not have done that. It's a freaking repeat with Simonson's slant on it.

DC, get your act together. Don't hand the fans the same curse and storyline.

Jimmy