Teen Titans 43 Spoilers beware

[Karl O'Neill]

-Ravager takes Jericho to New York to meet Nightwing so that Dick knew he was back.
-Tim and Cassie are in the basement of Titans Tower talking to Raven about bringing Conner back.
-Raven can not bring Conner back because Conner's sould has already moved on where as Jericho's was trapped in Deathstroke adn then the computer disk so he was still on Earth.
-Raven, Robin and Wonder Girl are attacked by Inertia.
-Cassie starts to get up but Match shows up and says that Wonder Girl is his and hits her.
-Cyborg and Ms. Martian go to Belle Reve Prison to talk to Bombshell and find out who she is working for.
-Bombshell's cel is blasted into by Risk from the opposite side. Batgirl shows up and slices Bombshell's throat.
-Joker's Daughter and Riddler's Daughter show up and take out the security which releases all the prisoners.
-While trying to stop the pridoners Ms. Martian is attacked by Sungirl. Sungirl tells Ms. Martion "Hello, Megan. Where I come from we know each other very, very well but in this time we haven't had the pleassure. My name is Sungirl. I burn stuff".
-Kid Devil is attending church from the rafters when he is attacked by Kid Crusader.
-Robin's hands are tied apart so he can't move and woken up by Batgirl who hits him to wake him up.
-Deathstroke is now with Batgirl. He says that since the Titans took away his family, that he will take away theirs.
-Batgirl takes off her mask and asks Deathstroke if it is time? Deathsroke tells her "Yes Cassandra. It is time for your shot."
-Deathstroke is using the same drug on Batgirl that he used on Ravager.
-Ravager and Jericho are walking along the docks of New York talking about the titans of ol'. When Ravager asks Jericho "Do you miss it now? Your Titans? Your Tower?" Jericho turns and points to where the tower had been which is now replaced with a giant wood cross.

[titanfan]

-Deathstroke is using the same drug on Batgirl that he used on Ravager.

Yay, at least they are kinda trying to explain why Batgirl has suddenly turned evil.

The drug seems to have a way worse affect on Batgirl than it did Ravager--who at least seemed to fight with her morality at times though.

[Karl O'Neill]

Tony daniels art is fab isnt it?

he should be drawing superman,

i know he's penciling some of the action comics annual thats out next week.

[titanfan]

Tony daniels art is fab isnt it?

Gorgeous. However--is he the reason that the book is shipping so late?

[Beast]

So no info on what abilities or powers Kid Crusader has yet?

[Karl O'Neill]

Gorgeous. However--is he the reason that the book is shipping so late?

i honestly don't know, besides from action comics annual, i don't know of any other projects daniel is working on.

So no info on what abilities or powers Kid Crusader has yet?

i'll let u see yourself on thursday when u get it.

is that fair?

[Beast]

I'll let u see yourself on thursday when u get it.

is that fair?
Nah. Spill it. I am just curious, as they haven't said anywhere. :D

[ducklord]

I just have to bwah-hah-hah over the Batgirl reveal. Of course, it does kinda make Batman and Robin's indifference to her change in character even more damning:

Robin: Bruce, you won't believe what just happened. Cassie just killed a whole buncha people (including one or two who were already dead), then she sicced the League of Assassins on me, then she, like gave me this whole rambling incoherent James Bond villain speech about her daddy issues, and THEN I beat her in hand-to-hand combat!

Batman: That doesn't sound like Cassie at all.

Robin: I know. It's like she's on drugs or something...

(crickets chirp)

Robin: So, anyway, I'm off to continue my secret plans to resurrect Superboy, due to my unresolved issues about my father's death 'n' all.

Batman: Good luck with that. I'm off to England to pick up my not-anviliciously-named-in-the-slightest demon child.

Mike.

[Karl O'Neill]

So no info on what abilities or powers Kid Crusader has yet?

nt too much yet, he has that cross, so he can beat kid devil over the head with it

[Beast]

nt too much yet, he has that cross, so he can beat kid devil over the head with it
Meh. Here I was hoping they'd at least get to the reveal of his powers. :p

[Tony Starkz]

Loved it.Testament as to why this book is one of the best superhero team books on the shelves.

[titanfan]

Geoff Johns to exit Teen Titans:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=99695

Adam "Batgirl is Evil" Beechen is replacing him.

[sly_kat]

Geoff Johns to exit Teen Titans:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=99695

Adam "Batgirl is Evil" Beechen is replacing him.

*emo tear* :'(....for both....

[Lex]

Geoff Johns to exit Teen Titans:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=99695

Adam "Batgirl is Evil" Beechen is replacing him.
Beechen is a great writer. Give him a chance.

[Samuraixsithlord]

Batgirl was just hopped up on the same drug as Rose, you have know idea how happy i am that they didn't stick with the shitty reason from Robin 151. I hope that at the end of the story line that they get her off the drugs and she joins the new titans team after this and fiinally hooks up with Tim

as for the traitor on Titans east i'm thinkin its either Sun Girl because she reminds slade of terra and that would be the greatest piece of irony ever or it will be Match because he loves Wonder Girl and wouldn't want to see her dead

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

The best part about the Batgirl "doper" reveal is that it can be reversed. Whether you like the explanation or not, it does open the door for rehabilitation in the future.


... That was so bad-ass when she slit Bombshell's throat! :D

[IamtheRock3]

hmm people forgetting Deathstroke comment about

"You wonder why she been acting so strange"

Yes kind of have

So they seem to be trying to make up

good fight.


Dont know who half these villans are though

[IamtheRock3]

Beechen is a great writer. Give him a chance.


Yea thing the batgirl change was the higher ups

he only had a little time to do it

edit- Oh he actully write Robin pretty darn well

[Beast]

Dont know who half these villans are though
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titans_East

[titanfan]

So no info on what abilities or powers Kid Crusader has yet?

If I had to guess, It seems like he has powers like Kid Devil originally had, except that instead of being powered by his trident, Kid Crusader is powered by his cross.

If KC's "plan" is to save Eddie by killing him before he reaches 20--well I can't say I find fault on that logic...

[Damo]

Yea thing the batgirl change was the higher ups

he only had a little time to do it

edit- Oh he actully write Robin pretty darn well

He had sufficient time to read some comics (I mean, I love them, but come on, when your job is writing comics, you have enough time to read them) and I thought he wrote Robin pretty darn poorly.

[Blight]

Beechen is a great writer. Give him a chance.

Even more.. he is co-writing the final part of Titans East. Hmm.. traitor on Titans East they say? Gee.. what would make all this change if someone did something in that final part. All I'm saying. *whistles innocently*

Looks like I might give him another arc to prove himself if things are looking as they are.

[Karl O'Neill]

i have a feeling jericho will do some amazing 'feats' in this arc which will help the titans win

[Drink]

He had sufficient time to read some comics (I mean, I love them, but come on, when your job is writing comics, you have enough time to read them) and I thought he wrote Robin pretty darn poorly.

The Batgirl comics weren't exactly full legnth novels either. One could read through them all in a few hours flat, really.

[Karl O'Neill]

It looks like inertia can change into kid flash costume and impluse costume too,

the joke was funny, people prefer impluse

[Xanrn]

I hope they show more of the Jericho/Nightwing reunion in Nightwing, I don't know about you, but I prefer to see the actually reunion not just the "well that was nice, goodbye".

Robin and Bi-Polar-Girl (honeslty make up your mind do you want Conner back or not) talking to Raven was good.

Worst bit Bizarro Junior, I mean for godsake Johns couldn't come up with something slightly more original?

Looks like we don't get 44 to freakin March.

[Doom]

Dunno about you guys, but I got the impression that whatever drug Slade's using on Cassandra was different from the one that gives Slade super powers. Just some generic mind control serum. (Though the fact that she was asking for it was veryyyyyyyyyyy creepy.)
Then again I could be very wrong.

Risk...I despise him. In the sense that I want to see him hurt. It must be due to that mustache of his.

By far the creepiest part of the book was Slade looking around Robin's cave to see that he has memorials set up to Superboy (and I found the "cloning Superboy" plot especially ironic when the team he's fighting has 2 clones on it) Spoiler (nice to see someone acknowledge her), his Mom (she's been dead how long? Where did he get the clothes) and his Dad.

I mean, he's got their cloths in glass cases ala Jason Todd's uniform.
Tim- the obsessive Robin.

[DoctorDoom]

He had sufficient time to read some comics (I mean, I love them, but come on, when your job is writing comics, you have enough time to read them) and I thought he wrote Robin pretty darn poorly.
Ah, I was awaiting your response on this comic. What do you htink of the 'drug' thing? Personally if it gets Cass back to normal I'll begrudgingly accept it.

[jasiem]

I figure the traitor has to be Joker's Daughter, she's the only one not seen on the cover this month that shows the Titan's East, nor next month's cover with both teams.

[Constantine Drakon]

The best part about the Batgirl "doper" reveal is that it can be reversed. Whether you like the explanation or not, it does open the door for rehabilitation in the future.

I don't follow. This seems a pretty clear cut case of DC appeasing the fans and providing an explanation that absolves her of any guilt. Mind control all along.

Do we have confirmation that there will be a traitor on the East, or is this one of those things where the fans go "there always is" and get carried away speculating?

[jlg1]

I don't follow. This seems a pretty clear cut case of DC appeasing the fans and providing an explanation that absolves her of any guilt. Mind control all along.

Although why would she consent to join Deathstroke and let him inject her with the serum? It is a plausible explanation, but I don't know if it rights all the wrongs, it depends what we see in WWIII and how the arc ends...

Do we have confirmation that there will be a traitor on the East, or is this one of those things where the fans go "there always is" and get carried away speculating?

In a DC Nation Dan Didio had written: "Need info on Titans East traitor" I think.

Although wasn't the traitor Bombshell working for Deathstroke, who just got her neck slit by Cass? Tricky English language... :P

[Nate Grey]

What do you htink of the 'drug' thing? Personally if it gets Cass back to normal I'll begrudgingly accept it.

Co-sign.

This seems a pretty clear cut case of DC appeasing the fans and providing an explanation that absolves her of any guilt. Mind control all along.

Co-sign, too. Though I am worried when Beechum comes on board he'll reverse everything.

Although why would she consent to join Deathstroke and let him inject her with the serum? It is a plausible explanation, but I don't know if it rights all the wrongs, it depends what we see in WWIII and how the arc ends...

Exactly. From the look of that rough sketch, it looked like Slade caught her at a week moment and got her to take a drug (THE drug, a variant of it, whatever). Thing is whatever it was seems to be HIGHLY addictive, something I'm sure Slade purposely left out.

I'd love to see Batgirl get off whatever it is and have a whole issue where she tries to fight Slade one on one. THAT would be interesting.

[Damo]

Ah, I was awaiting your response on this comic. What do you htink of the 'drug' thing? Personally if it gets Cass back to normal I'll begrudgingly accept it.

Well, as I've seen it put elsewhere, it's a bit of an obvious cliche'... but it's also the most logical explanation. Not Johns' fault that the most logical solution to the "How to undo Beechen's Mess" equation was an obvious cliche'.

Whatever it takes hon, whatever it takes.

And yeah, I'm thinking that in WWIII lots of people were dying, she was pushed to her max, and there was Slade going "hey this'll make you faster and stronger. I'm not lying, read my body language!"

And if you want to counter that she should be able to read that he was witholding info... I'd counter right back that a character using 90% of his brain could learn body language and how to fake it.

Not sure if it's "the" serum used on Slade. More likely a derivitive. The one he had originally was (if I remember right) extremely dangerous if used on someone that's not a blood relative of him. His wife went absolutely nuts after a blood transfusion (for those keeping record he's lost his father figure, wife, brothers, two sons, and daughter. Yes, I think that would drive most people a bit around the bend). It might be derived from it though.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Well, as I've seen it put elsewhere, it's a bit of an obvious cliche'... but it's also the most logical explanation. Not Johns' fault that the most logical solution to the "How to undo Beechen's Mess" equation was an obvious cliche'.


If I'm understanding the sequence of events right, Batgirl turning evil wasn't "Beechen's Mess", it wasn't even his idea. When he was given the Robin writing assignment, he was told by DC to turn Batgirl into a villain as a set-up to the up-comming Titans East. It seems pretty likely to me that Slade doping Batgirl was part of that story from the beginning, but Beechen obviously wasn't able to spill the beans so as not to ruin Johns' reveal in Titans.

I know it makes for a better Fanboy Conspiracy Theory to believe that Beechen is a Big Meanie who turned America's Sweetheart into a Baddie and Johns is swooping in to save the day, but that doesn't sound like what actually happened to me.

If you'd like, you could e-mail either Beechen or Johns once this storyline is over and they'll probably give you the details of how Batgirl turned heel.

[David O Burcham]

If I'm understanding the sequence of events right, Batgirl turning evil wasn't "Beechen's Mess", it wasn't even his idea. When he was given the Robin writing assignment, he was told by DC to turn Batgirl into a villain as a set-up to the up-comming Titans East. It seems pretty likely to me that Slade doping Batgirl was part of that story from the beginning, but Beechen obviously wasn't able to spill the beans so as not to ruin Johns' reveal in Titans.



Moreover, when "One Year Later" started in the entire DC line, it was clearly stated that things that seemed out of place would slowly be revealed over the course of the year.

I like Deathstroke's twisted motivation. He lost his oldest son Grant (the original Ravager) to Dick Grayson's team of Titans when he died fighting them. he lost his other son Jericho to Dick Grayon's team when he joined the Titans. He lost his daughter to Tim Drake's Titans when she joined them.

In retaliation to Dick and Tim, Cassie was lost by being forced to join Slade's team of Titans.

[Deathstroke]

Damn, can't wait to see how Batgirl got taken in and then controlled by Deathstroke.

[titanfan]

If I'm understanding the sequence of events right, Batgirl turning evil wasn't "Beechen's Mess", it wasn't even his idea. When he was given the Robin writing assignment, he was told by DC to turn Batgirl into a villain as a set-up to the up-comming Titans East.

Actually I thought he was just told to "turn Batgirl evil", not that it was a set up for Titans East. I think it was then Johns who decided to follow up on that story.

[Corrina]

It still doesn't explain why Babs, Bruce, and Tim didn't even attempt to help her. Surely, Bruce or Babs is smart enough to investigate if someone they cared about seems to have an instant change in personality.

Hell, Babs once spyed on Black Canary, she's that paranoid about villains surrounding her friends.

Talk about super-dickery.

[DoctorDoom]

Well, as I've seen it put elsewhere, it's a bit of an obvious cliche'... but it's also the most logical explanation. Not Johns' fault that the most logical solution to the "How to undo Beechen's Mess" equation was an obvious cliche'.

Whatever it takes hon, whatever it takes.

And yeah, I'm thinking that in WWIII lots of people were dying, she was pushed to her max, and there was Slade going "hey this'll make you faster and stronger. I'm not lying, read my body language!"

And if you want to counter that she should be able to read that he was witholding info... I'd counter right back that a character using 90% of his brain could learn body language and how to fake it.

Not sure if it's "the" serum used on Slade. More likely a derivitive. The one he had originally was (if I remember right) extremely dangerous if used on someone that's not a blood relative of him. His wife went absolutely nuts after a blood transfusion (for those keeping record he's lost his father figure, wife, brothers, two sons, and daughter. Yes, I think that would drive most people a bit around the bend). It might be derived from it though.
Interesting. Thanks for the response.

For some reason I feel like at the end of this arc she's going to be redeemed....then killed :(

[Damo]

If I'm understanding the sequence of events right, Batgirl turning evil wasn't "Beechen's Mess", it wasn't even his idea. When he was given the Robin writing assignment, he was told by DC to turn Batgirl into a villain as a set-up to the up-comming Titans East.

I do not believe you are correct.

According to the interviews he had, Beechen had pitched for a number of books, and was given Robin (a book he hadn't pitched) and was told that for his first story they wanted Robin fighting Cassandra, who they wanted to be the head of the new League of Assassins. It's true that Beechen didn't come up with the idea of her turning against the family and leading the LoA. How that story was executed, however, was entirely up to him. And it's the execution that had people pissed more than anything else, believe me. I could go on at length, but someone did a better job:

Hypothetically, imagine if right after learning that Coast City had been destroyed, Hal Jordan had encountered Mongul and the Cyborg Superman. But instead of going insane and killing them, he came to terms with what happened to Coast City, prevented others from killing the villains, and went out of his way to make sure they were defeated and brought in alive.

Now imagine that a month after that story ended, a new story began with Hal discovering Coast City had been destroyed (despite the fact that we'd just finished a story where this had already happened), tracking down and killing the culprits and ultimately doing the whole Emerald Twilight thing.

That is the kind of blatant contradiction that Batgirl fans are being asked to accept.

The last arc in her book dealt with her finding out about her roots. There were numerous flashbacks, including one explaining that her father had trained other children, of which only one survived. Cass, upon finding out about these other children, did not go crazy. She didn't care at all. In fact, when she finally met her last surviving "sibling", a murderous psychopath that had just gone on a killing spree, she prevented someone from killing him. Because killing is never right, and everyone deserves the chance to change their life. Furthermore, she allowed herself to be killed by this sibling rather than use enough force to kill him. And she did this while saving the life of an assassin, again because killing is wrong, and everyone deserves the chance to change their life.

Fast forward two months, and we've got Adam Beechen's story. In it Robin, stunned by Cassandra's renouncing the ways of Batman and turning to murder, asks Cassandra what had changed. She replies that it's very simple: she found out that Cain had trained another child. She couldn't deal with this knowledge, because being the only kid that Cain trained was something that she had clung to for years. And she had tracked down and killed this sibling. Never mind that this explanation contradicts flashbacks stating there was only one other survivor of Cain's training, how she had reacted upon meeting that other survivor, or that we had just finished a major story detailing the lengths she would go to in order to prevent someone from killing another child trained by Cain. No, we are expected to accept that Cassandra's natural reaction to finding out she has a sibling is to track down her sister and kill her out of jealousy.

This is shamefully bad writing, and I am shocked that no less than two editors looked over it either without seeing or without caring about this inconsistency. Her book ends on a major arc exploring her origins, and it's contradicted immediately afterwards? I am aware that sometimes continuity must be sacrificed for a story, but this is simply too much to swallow. Judging from reactions at savecass.com, I am not alone in my anger at this error.

I have major problems with this arc for a number of reasons. I felt that Cass' dialogue was not at all in keeping with her established speech patterns, her characterization was woeful, her terrifying father defeated with insulting ease by an unarmed Robin, her master plan ludicrous, her sudden feeling that Batman used her absurd (she can read body language, she knows when someone is using her and when someone cares about her), and the handling of basic details of her past deplorable (we're told that she had been able to read, write, and use multiple languages during a period in her past when we know she was struggling with speaking English and utterly incapable of learning the ABCs). But all these things pale in my mind compared to the fact that when asked what had changed to make her become a killer, the reason she provides is one that is completely irreconcilable with the last major story published in her own title. For this reason I feel that Beechen's tale was woefully unprofessional, and while I hope that DC corrects what has happened, thus far the evidence is that the people that have been handling this character shift can't be bothered to do the necessary research. Right now, no girls are allowed in the Batcave, and after reading the explanation why, this Batgirl fan is disgusted at how little the writers and editors seemed to care about the character's history.

The Robin OYL story does not flow well into the Titans story. It looks much more like it was setting her up to be a recurring for for Robin, especially with her acting almost like a seductress to him, and Cain revealing he had still more "children". Her Supergirl appearance gets cancelled, then rescheduled. And shortly after fans start a write in campagin, create savecass.org, start basically making a fuss, Johns announces that she'll be a part of his Titans East story. It's not impossible that Johns had always planned on having an evil Cass, and somehow through editorial neglect Beechen only got the bear details and created a story that doesn't gel well with Johns. Much more likely in my opinion, DC wanted a new "Black Sheep" of the family to replace Jason Todd (who was going to go straight by becoming the new Nightwing) and set up Cassandra to be Robin's foe. But Beechen delivered something that just didn't work at all, even angering people that had wanted her to become an anti-hero, and Johns decided to fit her into a story and fix things.


It seems pretty likely to me that Slade doping Batgirl was part of that story from the beginning, but Beechen obviously wasn't able to spill the beans so as not to ruin Johns' reveal in Titans.

Having followed this all along, I am very strongly convinced that this was not the case. The Robin story doesn't gel well with "Slade's doping her". It's not impossible, but like I said, Robin OYL and the planned Supergirl appearance (which has surely been rewritten, considering it was cancelled then rescheduled) seem to have been setting her up as a recurring "anti-hero" like Jason Todd, and not a pawn of Slade.


I know it makes for a better Fanboy Conspiracy Theory to believe that Beechen is a Big Meanie who turned America's Sweetheart into a Baddie and Johns is swooping in to save the day, but that doesn't sound like what actually happened to me.

I'd never believe that Beechen is a big Meanie who wanted to make a character evil. But in only a few months he's made a large number of continuity gaffes, some of them doozies. So rather than believe in a conspiracy, I believe that, like he said, DC wanted him to have Cassandra as the new head of the LoA, and the way he did it was so badly written and created such a negative reaction that they had to scrap their original plans. No conspiracy, just a badly executed order, and some damage control to fix it.

[Subotai]

It still doesn't explain why Babs, Bruce, and Tim didn't even attempt to help her. Surely, Bruce or Babs is smart enough to investigate if someone they cared about seems to have an instant change in personality.

Hell, Babs once spyed on Black Canary, she's that paranoid about villains surrounding her friends.

Talk about super-dickery.

Yeah, that's a tough pill to swallow.

[Karl O'Neill]

i am amazed how much people like batgirl.
they did cancel her book?

[Damo]

i am amazed how much people like batgirl.
they did cancel her book?

It was outselling many books they didn't cancel. Catwoman and Hawkgirl off the top of my head. *Shrugs.* I'd love to have been a fly on the wall for that meeting. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm sure they wouldn't cancel a title unless they felt it would be more profitable in the long run. They may not give two thoughts as to what to do with a book (boy do we have evidence for that), but I think they spend more time weighing pros and cons of cancelling something (money's involved! Time for serious thinking). Any DC book you can name technically turns a profit, so when they give something the axe it seems like it must be because they think that people will buy more DC titles if the axed title doesn't exist. So, like I said, I'm really curious why Batgirl got cancelled instead of other books. Did they think the new Batwoman would sell more books if there wasn't a Batgirl? Did they think the Bat-line had too many books, and Batman and Detective would sell much much better if some titles got cut? We've no way of knowing.

[titanfan]

Her book was above cancellation numbers when it was canned. (26k)

It was probably too low for a Bat-related title though.

[Nate Grey]

It still doesn't explain why Babs, Bruce, and Tim didn't even attempt to help her. Surely, Bruce or Babs is smart enough to investigate if someone they cared about seems to have an instant change in personality.

Hell, Babs once spyed on Black Canary, she's that paranoid about villains surrounding her friends.

Talk about super-dickery.

Yeah, that's a tough pill to swallow.

Hmmm...IF this ends with Cass off the drugs, and NOT dead, she'll have to deal with the fact she killed people. Bats, though, will have to deal with the flaw in his character, how he can relate to his "sons" but not his "daughter". I've LONG wanted Batman to do this ever since Batgirl was still being published. If DC wanted, though could make a good, even heart warming arc out of this. Not saying Batman should become soft by any means, just saying perhaps this is one wall he should demolish.

[Corrina]

Batman can relate to his 'sons?'

[Magneto_X]

Yay, at least they are kinda trying to explain why Batgirl has suddenly turned evil.

The drug seems to have a way worse affect on Batgirl than it did Ravager--who at least seemed to fight with her morality at times though.

I'm actually liking where this is going.

Now all Johns' has to explain is how Cassie learnt how to speak properly and was able to get Cherokee (sp) down despite being dxylexic.

Tony Daniel does a damn fine Cassie, too. :D

Corrina:

Bats isn't known for being sane.

[Magneto_X]

nt too much yet, he has that cross, so he can beat kid devil over the head with it

From what I gathered his powers seem to be angelic in nature. Which makes sense since he is Kid Devil's opposite (who got his power-up from Neron).

[Nate Grey]

Batman can relate to his 'sons?'

Better than his "daughter", yeah. How successfully, your mileage may vary. :D But he did, after all, adopt Dick (when he was grown) and now Tim.

[Magneto_X]

B I hope that at the end of the story line that they get her off the drugs and she joins the new titans team after this and fiinally hooks up with Tim


Normally I'd agree but Beechan is replacing Johns' soon.

I don't want him anywhere near Cass again.

Just put her in Outsiders or something.

[Magneto_X]

... That was so bad-ass when she slit Bombshell's throat! :D

Hope Bombshell survives.

She'd make a great addition to the Teen Titans rogues gallery.

[Magneto_X]

He had sufficient time to read some comics (I mean, I love them, but come on, when your job is writing comics, you have enough time to read them) and I thought he wrote Robin pretty darn poorly.

He didn't even need to do that, either.

Wikipedia has the basics for Cass, too.

[Magneto_X]

Dunno about you guys, but I got the impression that whatever drug Slade's using on Cassandra was different from the one that gives Slade super powers. Just some generic mind control serum. (Though the fact that she was asking for it was veryyyyyyyyyyy creepy.)
Then again I could be very wrong.

Risk...I despise him. In the sense that I want to see him hurt. It must be due to that mustache of his.

By far the creepiest part of the book was Slade looking around Robin's cave to see that he has memorials set up to Superboy (and I found the "cloning Superboy" plot especially ironic when the team he's fighting has 2 clones on it) Spoiler (nice to see someone acknowledge her), his Mom (she's been dead how long? Where did he get the clothes) and his Dad.

I mean, he's got their cloths in glass cases ala Jason Todd's uniform.
Tim- the obsessive Robin.

They need to replace Beechan with Johns on Robin.

I'd read it.

<<----hasn't read Robin since Dixon left

[Magneto_X]

Although why would she consent to join Deathstroke and let him inject her with the serum? It is a plausible explanation, but I don't know if it rights all the wrongs, it depends what we see in WWIII and how the arc ends...


It could be done.

DS found a way to forcefully inject her post-Destruction's Daughter and now she is addicted to a drug only *he* has access to.

Eventually she'd go on a downward spiral, pre-OYL, until she'll do anything for Slade to get the drug.

*That's* how he keeps her under control.

Just speculation on my part.

[Magneto_X]

Damn, can't wait to see how Batgirl got taken in and then controlled by Deathstroke.

They'll most likely reveal that in one of the WWIII specials.

[Drink]

Normally I'd agree but Beechan is replacing Johns' soon.

I don't want him anywhere near Cass again.

Just put her in Outsiders or something.

Ew, no! Winick would make her a lesbian for the hell of it. And with the friendship with Spoiler, the bastard could get away with it too.

[Magneto_X]

It still doesn't explain why Babs, Bruce, and Tim didn't even attempt to help her. Surely, Bruce or Babs is smart enough to investigate if someone they cared about seems to have an instant change in personality.

Hell, Babs once spyed on Black Canary, she's that paranoid about villains surrounding her friends.

Talk about super-dickery.

Not only did Bruce not investigate Cass but his reaction after Tim told him Cass was evil was "That's nice and all, but don't worry about it". :confused:

Drink:

As opposed to Beechen doing whatever he can think of with her? I have more faith in Winick.

[Magneto_X]

Her book was above cancellation numbers when it was canned. (26k)

It was probably too low for a Bat-related title though.

IIRC is was higher then Catwoman and that title wasn't even being hinted at of being in danger. Same with Robin.

[Drink]

Drink:

As opposed to Beechen doing whatever he can think of with her? I have more faith in Winick.

Yeah, but still, I could name other writers I'd be more comfortable with her being written with *Coughgailsimonecough*

[Magneto_X]

Drink:

My god! :eek:

Batgirl in BoP would be a dream come true!

[Nate Grey]

Drink:

My god! :eek:

Batgirl in BoP would be a dream come true!

It would be interesting seeing Cass interact with Shiva, if she's still there by that time.

[Magneto_X]

Shiva left after the OYL arc ended.

Now it's Oracle, Gypsy, Barda, Black Hawk, Huntress and Manhunter.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I'd never believe that Beechen is a big Meanie who wanted to make a character evil. But in only a few months he's made a large number of continuity gaffes, some of them doozies. So rather than believe in a conspiracy, I believe that, like he said, DC wanted him to have Cassandra as the new head of the LoA, and the way he did it was so badly written and created such a negative reaction that they had to scrap their original plans. No conspiracy, just a badly executed order, and some damage control to fix it.

Could be, could be. Like I said, once this storyline is over, I'm sure Johns & Beechen will spill the beans about the creative process of Batgirl's turn to the dark side.

[Sharpandpointies]

Tony Daniel does a damn fine Cassie, too. :D


I thought so until I saw her face. Nice botox injections on those lips. :(

[Doom]

I thought so until I saw her face. Nice botox injections on those lips. :(

Well, where do you think Slade injects his formula of pure evilium?

[elias_A]

I do not believe you are correct.

According to the interviews he had, Beechen had pitched for a number of books, and was given Robin (a book he hadn't pitched) and was told that for his first story they wanted Robin fighting Cassandra, who they wanted to be the head of the new League of Assassins. It's true that Beechen didn't come up with the idea of her turning against the family and leading the LoA. How that story was executed, however, was entirely up to him. And it's the execution that had people pissed more than anything else, believe me. I could go on at length, but someone did a better job:


The Robin OYL story does not flow well into the Titans story. It looks much more like it was setting her up to be a recurring for for Robin, especially with her acting almost like a seductress to him, and Cain revealing he had still more "children". Her Supergirl appearance gets cancelled, then rescheduled. And shortly after fans start a write in campagin, create savecass.org, start basically making a fuss, Johns announces that she'll be a part of his Titans East story. It's not impossible that Johns had always planned on having an evil Cass, and somehow through editorial neglect Beechen only got the bear details and created a story that doesn't gel well with Johns. Much more likely in my opinion, DC wanted a new "Black Sheep" of the family to replace Jason Todd (who was going to go straight by becoming the new Nightwing) and set up Cassandra to be Robin's foe. But Beechen delivered something that just didn't work at all, even angering people that had wanted her to become an anti-hero, and Johns decided to fit her into a story and fix things.



Having followed this all along, I am very strongly convinced that this was not the case. The Robin story doesn't gel well with "Slade's doping her". It's not impossible, but like I said, Robin OYL and the planned Supergirl appearance (which has surely been rewritten, considering it was cancelled then rescheduled) seem to have been setting her up as a recurring "anti-hero" like Jason Todd, and not a pawn of Slade.



I'd never believe that Beechen is a big Meanie who wanted to make a character evil. But in only a few months he's made a large number of continuity gaffes, some of them doozies. So rather than believe in a conspiracy, I believe that, like he said, DC wanted him to have Cassandra as the new head of the LoA, and the way he did it was so badly written and created such a negative reaction that they had to scrap their original plans. No conspiracy, just a badly executed order, and some damage control to fix it.


That's an interesting thought that Cass was supposed to be the "black sheep" instead of Jason Todd who was supposed to replace Nightwing.

But as much as would like to feel important for prostesting, I cannot imagine DC would have given up their plans because of our complaints, at least not so soon.

First, they surely expected outrage from Batgirl fans.
They don't seem to care in most cases (Blue Beetle, who didn't even have a series), or intentionally mislead (Booster).

They would probably have used Cass in an important storyline as big threat, maybe reforming her later.

But I cannot imagine they cancelled her series just to get a new villain for Robin.

Sure, there might have been some chaos and confusion among the editors, but I can really only see them having one of two plans:

To give Cass some publicity to relaunch her series later, or to introduce a new Batgirl.

Maybe the original plan was to introduce a new Batgirl in Robin, or in a bigger Bat-event which did not fit with Morrison's and Dini's plans then, so they switched to Titans East, maybe deciding to give Cass another chance, or to get her fans on board by allowing her to become a mentor for the new Batgirl.

(If that would be Spoiler, or maybe Spoiler's daughter, I could accept that.)

I agree that they probably had some plans for Cass and the league of assassins. Probably Gabrych was already told to prepare that in Batgirl.

On the other hand, didn't Geoff say he was preparing Titans East for years? Maybe the fight with Ravager in Batgirl was already preparing that?

It's all very confusing.

[phantom1592]

I'm actually liking where this is going.

Now all Johns' has to explain is how Cassie learnt how to speak properly and was able to get Cherokee (sp) down despite being dxylexic.



I'd just say the drug did it. If it pumped Slade up to 90% brain power, then the derivitive may have got Cassie up to 70+. That should fix the dxylexia. The cherokee...... I don't know, how long was she on the drug? the full 52/oyl gap? She may have "picked" it up.



Bats, though, will have to deal with the flaw in his character, how he can relate to his "sons" but not his "daughter". I've LONG wanted Batman to do this ever since Batgirl was still being published. If DC wanted, though could make a good, even heart warming arc out of this. Not saying Batman should become soft by any means, just saying perhaps this is one wall he should demolish.

I thought about that when she first showed up. That would have been a great thing to include. Batman has raised three sons so far, but he never had to deal with a teenage daughter. He would have been VERY out of his element. Instead they just shove her off on Oracle and give her a cave of her own. She never even had to deal with the others in gotham. :rolleyes:

Missed chances :(

[Damo]

I'd just say the drug did it. If it pumped Slade up to 90% brain power, then the derivitive may have got Cassie up to 70+. That should fix the dxylexia. The cherokee...... I don't know, how long was she on the drug? the full 52/oyl gap? She may have "picked" it up.

He would have needed a time machine for THAT one to make sense. Supposedly she learned Navajo code with Tim from Batman. So it would have had to have happened back in the past, not the 52 gap, back when we know she had trouble speaking English and couldn't learn her ABCs. There's no way to get around that mistake.
[/QUOTE]



That's an interesting thought that Cass was supposed to be the "black sheep" instead of Jason Todd who was supposed to replace Nightwing.

But as much as would like to feel important for prostesting, I cannot imagine DC would have given up their plans because of our complaints, at least not so soon.

The story was really awful. Plot and continuity holes all over the place. Had this just been fans complaining about not liking what was done with a character they liked, I'd be less inclined to believe DC would change its plans. Here, I thnk they realized that it wasn't just an unpopular change, but that the execution was so bad that it simply wasn't worth it to continue on as planned.

[phantom1592]

He would have needed a time machine for THAT one to make sense. Supposedly she learned Navajo code with Tim from Batman. So it would have had to have happened back in the past, not the 52 gap, back when we know she had trouble speaking English and couldn't learn her ABCs. There's no way to get around that mistake.



Ahhh Gotcha. Never mind then.

[Pyro]

I'm not very familiar with Batgirl, nor am I very certain of the reasons for why she is currently appearing in Teen Titans. However, does it appear to anyone else that Slade has an unhealthy obsession with her? Considering he dressed up his drugged up daughter like her earlier in TT (around issue 22), and she's now his special project, maybe this was a logical progression of his Cass-crush. I dunno.

I'm really upset that Johns is leaving the book. This really was his book, and one of the only reasons I dabble in the DC Universe. I've been following the whole series under him and I'm going to miss him, as well as Daniels. Daniels' art really has improved a lot over his tenure. I'm not sure what to expect from Beechen, but he seems enthusiastic enough, and I really like the quick character descriptions he provided for each member over on his Newsarama interview. He nailed those in my opinion. I'll give him a chance.

[Xanrn]

Which issue was it of Batgirl where, Batman and Batgirl fought a pretty long fight because one was infected with some mind control thing and it ends up with a decaped and dehood Bruce and Cassandra cuddling in a sewer.

See I hope to god this is some Nightwing/Batman scheme to get back Cassie and thats the reason for Batman's "Meh Cassie has gone evil I am going to beat up the Joker" reaction.

Nightwing setting Deathstroke up would be great, OYL and Deathstroke has fought pratically every hero but Nightwing.

[Constantine Drakon]

Was shown an excellent post taking a long look at the behind the scenes shenanigans.



Clearing up the confusion about a Robin OYL and Titans East connection...

There wasn't one. If anyone speculates otherwise, just direct them to this post, or the original one I posted at the comicbloc forums here: http://www.comicbloc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43127&page=5

Adam Beechen said the following about his setup for Robin OYL in an interview here http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=8802#storyContinued

"DC told me where they pictured Tim at the start of what would be my run as writer and told me about the first story arc they had in mind, where Cassandra was turning away from the side of law and justice. They left it to me, with input from Eddie, to plot it out from there. "

From a writer's standpoint, I think the whole idea that what amounts to everything creative about Robin OYL being planned from the start by outside forces is way too overrestrictive, especially since the above occurred six months prior to Robin OYL, before even Infinite Crisis #1 was underway and a last-minute decision like replacing Nightwing's death with Superboy's was confirmed. Keep in mind that the creators of 52 said that questions about OYL would be answered during the missing year, but they never said they knew the answers yet. I say that they probably didn't. This is supported by the fact that none of the OYL writers are part of the 52 creative team, and the creation of the WWIII minis that were conceived of at the last minute because the writers found that explaining these plot points in the end didn't in the end work with the stories they were telling.

So was Cass being drugged by Deathstroke in the context of Titans East a plan for Robin OYL from the start? Does Beechen's reply to the interview question indicate that? EHHHHHHHHH, not so much. The way he talks about it, the plan (which could jive with the last arc of Batgirl if interpretted that way) was for the turn to be gradual, indicating that it was on Cass's terms. Now, granted, there's nothing gradual about Robin OYL but we do get the "on Cass's terms" part of the equation. She explains why she does things and every explanation has an in-story arc answer. No shadowy male figure in the background, no hints at Deathstroke or Titans East. And if DC under DiDio does love one thing, it's hinting towards future storylines. But that aside...

This forum more than any should know that the membership of Titans East at least wasn't crystalized until way AFTER Robin OYL. It was announced six months or so before it started, and well after outcry began about Batgirl. Considering Titans of Tomorrow, the concept of a Titans East has been there for awhile, but the membership is entirely different from the one we see now and Cassandra Cain was still considered a hero victimized by Duela Dent. In March 2005, after Titans Tomorrow (which occurred in late 2004), we get an interview ( http://gelatometti.blogspot.com/2005/03/anderson-gabrych.html)from Batgirl writer Anderson Gabrych elucidating where he plans to take Cassandra following the arc with Shiva. There is no mention of the book getting cancelled or Cass going evil. (In fact, it seems to suggest that she will be exploring personal relations with her supporting cast in Bludhaven)

Ok, so if the Deathstroke drugging decision came about, it probably wasn't tied to long term plans at the time of Titans Tomorrow. We only have any clues that Deathstroke is involved in any way with Cassandra from around the time Titans East was announced in 2006. Note that according to Gabrych's interview, the meeting with Deathstroke in Batgirl #64 was planned by HIM for reasons related to the story he had in mind well before he knew Editorial wanted Batgirl to become a bad buy/anti-heroine. However, we first see the seeds of Cassandra's turn "away from the side of law and justice" being forcibly planted on Anderson Gabrych's last arc of Batgirl, which doesn't jive with the plans he gave in the interview.

In Gail Simone's mid-late May elucidation about her pitch for Batgirl ( http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=126705&highlight=Gail+pitch+batgirl), we see that, as far as she knows, the direction was to make Cass leader of the League of Assassins, not individual member of Titans East. However, whether due to Morrison's insistence that Talia is in fact in charge of the League of Assassins or for some other reason, we see that the LoA concept has been downplayed or dropped in Supergirl's Batgirl crossover and they have yet to make an appearance in Titans East.

So was the original plan conceived at the time of Robin OYL to make Cass a bad guy, to make her head of the League of Assassins, to make her behavior appear eratic due to being drugged by Deathstroke, or a combination of the three?

If you go by the interviews and the in-story evidence, then it certainly seems that the editorial/creative decisions about what to do with Cassandra Cain have changed over time and that the addition of Deathstroke and Titans East in Cassandra's trajectory were fairly recent. Of course, ymmv, but that's how it appears to me.

And there's always this:

RT[Robert Taylor]: I personally love the way it was handled. I'm not sure it was the right direction for the character overall, but I loved the way you handled it given the circumstances. So, do you know what's behind this thinking and direction from DC?

AB[Adam Beechen]: You know, I never got into it with them as to the reasoning behind why they wanted to make this change. I wasn't privy to those conversations. I guess, probably, as a new writer coming to a book, I didn't want to rock the boat or ask a lot of questions. I just dove in and did it.

They didn't present me with a rationale as to why Cassandra was going to change, or a motivating factor. That was left for me to come up with and them to approve. And we did that. But as far as to why the editors and writers and whoever else made the decision decided that was a good direction, I honestly couldn't answer.


Whether or not they were a plan before OYL, Robin OYL was almost certainly not written with Titans East or Deathstroke or drugs specifically in mind. I hope that clears a little bit of the confusion.


A very nice analysis. And it's nice to see an interview where Beechen says in his own words that he was the one that came up with the motivating factor. I feel great knowing that I've been sticking pins in the right voodoo doll.

Oh don't look at me like that, I was just going for baldness...

[Magneto_X]

"I was just following orders. Move long, nothing to see here."

Lame.

[Magneto_X]

"I was just following orders. Move long, nothing to see here."

Lame.

[ForEverAncien]

And with that...from the day I collect the first to the last issue. The term 'character assissination', always stuck in my mind.

Thank you for posting this (referring to Constantine Drakon) .

[Nate Grey]

Was he forbidden from reading any of Batgirl's comic to see if it would be in character or not? CAN they forbid him? Can't control what he does in his spare time. Or was a time crunch thing? Or did he just not care?

Eh. Its over with. At least they're fixing it now. Somewhat.

[heretic]

If I'm understanding the sequence of events right, Batgirl turning evil wasn't "Beechen's Mess", it wasn't even his idea. When he was given the Robin writing assignment, he was told by DC to turn Batgirl into a villain as a set-up to the up-comming Titans East. It seems pretty likely to me that Slade doping Batgirl was part of that story from the beginning, but Beechen obviously wasn't able to spill the beans so as not to ruin Johns' reveal in Titans.

I know it makes for a better Fanboy Conspiracy Theory to believe that Beechen is a Big Meanie who turned America's Sweetheart into a Baddie and Johns is swooping in to save the day, but that doesn't sound like what actually happened to me.
The whole thing still feels like editoral imposition and slapdash execution across the board. A single readthrough of the last arc of Batgirl would have meant a completely different storyline revealing her as a villian in Robin, and while one can (with effort) bend the whole Drugged/Brainwashed thing into explaining her literacy and linguistic jump on top of the drop in skill there is still the whole failure of multiple murder to make a dent in said conditioning.

HTG (who thought possession would make more sense)

[Magneto_X]

Was he forbidden from reading any of Batgirl's comic to see if it would be in character or not? CAN they forbid him? Can't control what he does in his spare time. Or was a time crunch thing? Or did he just not care?


Even if he couldn't read the last arc he could have at least *skimmed* Cass's wikipedia entry. Or the various fan-sites devoted to the character.

There is no excuse for this.

He wouldn't have done this for Batman or Superman, would he?

[Taskmaster]

Even if he couldn't read the last arc he could have at least *skimmed* Cass's wikipedia entry. Or the various fan-sites devoted to the character.

There is no excuse for this.

He wouldn't have done this for Batman or Superman, would he?

Yeah, but (no offense to Batgirl fans) she's no Superman or Batman, heck Batgirls not even a Green Arrow, Aquaman or Hawkman for that matter. Alot of favorite characters of mine have been treated similar and you know what, the best thing to do when they ARE trying to fix it, is to sit back and enjoy the ride. Heck you don't see me complaining about how Deathstroke's being portrayed do you? And this is way out of character if you go by his appearances before Identity Crisis, and Hey, at least your getting an explanation

[Damo]

Yeah, but (no offense to Batgirl fans) she's no Superman or Batman, heck Batgirls not even a Green Arrow, Aquaman or Hawkman for that matter. Alot of favorite characters of mine have been treated similar and you know what, the best thing to do when they ARE trying to fix it, is to sit back and enjoy the ride. Heck you don't see me complaining about how Deathstroke's being portrayed do you? And this is way out of character if you go by his appearances before Identity Crisis, and Hey, at least your getting an explanation



Okay, I agree... she's not Superman or Batman.

(I'd put her a little above Hawkman in importance though... hey, she trounced his sales on a regular basis).

But as for the explanation? We got one before as well, and that's what P.O.ed people the most.

I'm not pleased that Deathstroke's become such a 2-D character. But at least they didn't put out a story right after IC like (off the top of my head) he turns into an evil hnorless mass murderer because he just found out that his son had once taken out a contract on the Titans and had died trying to fulfill it. If you'd read that, you'd have gone "WTF? We already covered that, this wouldn't be news to him, and that's not how he reacted! How can you write a Deathstroke story and not know something that basic?"

We got an explanation for her turning evil... and it not only contradicted her origin, but it also was basically a repeat of a story we'd already gotten, except with her turning evil to something that she'd reacted to in a different way before.

Don't get me wrong, we're (mostly) pleased to have gotten a new explanation that serves as a way out. But there is a difference between what happened to Deathstroke and what happened with Cass. He was given a new direction that I don't approve of, with no real explanation for his recent shifts in character. She got an explanation that was so poorly written it was just plain unprofessional.

[Nate Grey]

What's scary is that even though they're taking steps to fix it, the same guy who DIDN'T research Cass, is going to be writing Teen Titans when Johns leaves. Did he have time in the interim to research her, or does he still not care?

Being grateful doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to everything else. We're not automatons here. And I can't help but think he should have just stuck with "hey, following orders" as his explanation. Learning he didn't read the arc and for no good reason...irritates me. Just because she's not Batman or Superman is no excuse. If I worked for DC and they told me "Make Brother Power evil!" I'd at least Google him while eating lunch.

[Will.S]

It's a pretty strong start to Geoff's last arc and the story doesn't beat around the bush, you dive right into the thick of it with Inertia kicking Robin and Wonder Girl's asses.

I love these kinds of vs stories of evil dopplegangers against the originals so it'll make for some fun fights and interplay. The book certainly explains Batgirl's behavior over in Robin which makes for a nice revelation if the set-up was to be in Robin and have it pay off in Teen Titans.

As for Slade's Titan's East, I didn't really have a whole lot of knowledge of them but you can tell that Deathstroke put someone like Match in there to really psych out Wonder Girl (as well as for brute force). I was intruiged about the character as well since I've never seen him pop up before now especially in his current appearance. Inertia I've been seeing in The Flash so he's another relatively new character for me but the Joker's daughter looked familiar.

I liked that the Risk had a connection to Infinite Crisis by way of Superboy Prime, I kind of forgot that was him who got his armed ripped off so I can hardly blame him for being the way he is now. The Ravager/Jericho relationship has been cool to see play out as siblings, especially with Jericho being a mute and all.

Good stuff.

[carabas]

Speaking of Deathstroke, isn't he supposed to be in prison rather than putting together mini supervillain teams?
I seem to recall it was a rather big thing in Green Arrow.

[Kaos]

Speaking of Deathstroke, isn't he supposed to be in prison rather than putting together mini supervillain teams?
I seem to recall it was a rather big thing in Green Arrow.

it might be a fake D.S sitting in jail

[Dark Ben]

For Deathstroke recent behavior I remember an explenation from the early Teen Titans (current) issues where we learn that he has been corrupted by the "Evil" Jericho and when he was freed and realize all that it takes to him (wintergreen for example) he began to lose a bit of his mind that's why he's like that now IMHO

[joint venture]

I'm soooo into the unraveling of why Batgirl "turned bad". But it has "mission from a higher power (Bats)" written all over it.

[DoctorDoom]

it might be a fake D.S sitting in jail
I'm just assuming it's a different timeline for both books. Happens all the time when books use the same villains at (or near) one time.

[lightning]

I thought it was a great start to the whole Titans East arc. Although I am somewhat concerned about the make-up of the team at the end - it's been implied that the post-Titans East team won't be the same one that started it off. I'd be unfortunate if that was the case, since I think the current line up after the additions of Jericho and Miss Martian had lots of potential.

I did like how Deathstroke's team is custom-built to take on the current incarnation of the Teen Titans, and I'm interested to see how they overcome the ass-kicking they received in #43. I can't help but think that Ravager's current happiness is short-lived. I also hope that at the end of the Titans East arc Wonder Girl arrives at some form of closure over Superboy. I loved her progression from spunky in Young Justice to embittered and angry following Inifinite Crisis, but I think that angle's been played out and her characterization needs to be something more than "angry."