Old superheroes need an end

[Deep_Sleeper]

Continuing stories of one character is challenging enough...but to do that for 40-60 years, all at the same time doing so in multiple books, it gets really dilluted.

I think it's come to the point where even the creative team realize that there's just not enough stories to tell with certain characters.

I think it'd be a good move for publishers like Marvel and DC to find a creative team to do one run and after they finish, they stop the book until a new creative team can be found to continue the book. Instead of just having a fill-in creative team to bridge the acclaimed creators, just put the title on pause.

Books like Ultimates and Astonishing X-Men will no doubt employ this method of continuing stories, so why not extend this kind of storytelling to your premiere titles?

Even TV shows take time off to create more ongoing stories.

[Alan2099]

I think it's come to the point where even the creative team realize that there's just not enough stories to tell with certain characters.
There are always more stories to tell and different ways to tell them. If somebody can't think up a story for a certain character, the problem is in the writer, not the character.


Instead of just having a fill-in creative team to bridge the acclaimed creators, just put the title on pause.
Stan and Jack didn't start off as acclaimed creators, neither did Mcfarlane, Bendis, Bryne, Claremont, Jim Lee, or any other of the big names. So, if you only use the established big names, where does the new talent come from?

[Chris N]

Oddly enough, I'd just suggested this in Rita's yesterday.

But you don't limit to big-name creators, but creators with an idea.

If Bendis has a DD story to tell, let him tell it. He says he has 50 issues of ideas, give it to him. Brubaker thinks he has ideas to follow it, give it to him. You don't have a writer after Brubaker, so you give it to someone who thinks they can make something work, it's backwards.

A Spider-Man story to tell should lead to a creator writing Spider-Man. Instead of them needing there to be a Spider-Man story every month, so a creator is forced to come up with a Spider-Man story.

[K'Nort]

I still don't understand the constant "No one will accept a 60-something Batman" argument. I totally would. And it works for the JSA.

[the film freak]

My solution is older superhero fans need to move on. If you're bored with Batman stop reading Batman. There's plenty of other stuff out there for you.

Spider-man, Superman, Batman and all these other superhero books weren't created with the intention of having it's audience following the book for forty, fifty, sixty years. The idea was that once fans get older and quit reading comics a younger group of readers reads the book instead.

It worked well for Archie over the years (and Archie books still sell pretty well in the newstand market).

But nowadays these older superhero books are catering to people who have been reading the book for several decades. And no new readers are coming on board.

[Deep_Sleeper]

My solution is older superhero fans need to move on. If you're bored with Batman stop reading Batman. There's plenty of other stuff out there for you.

Spider-man, Superman, Batman and all these other superhero books weren't created with the intention of having it's audience following the book for forty, fifty, sixty years. The idea was that once fans get older and quit reading comics a younger group of readers reads the book instead.

It worked well for Archie over the years (and Archie books still sell pretty well in the newstand market).

But nowadays these older superhero books are catering to people who have been reading the book for several decades. And no new readers are coming on board.

Not always bored, but sometimes the stories aren't that good and I attribute it to the neccessity of delivering a monthly comic.

For instance, I love all the Astonishing X-Men characters. This has got to be my favourite grouping of X-Men. It's got all the characters that I love. However, it'd be kinda sucky if they continue the book without having a set creative team. Imagine if you will that Brubaker didn't have his story ready for the finale of Bendis's run, so since it's a monthly, they decided to have someone come in, temporarily to bridge the gap between Bendis and Brubaker.

Maybe I'm way off on this, but instead of having a whole bunch of comics just going on and on, getting cancelled and re-booted...imagine ongoing comics actually taking a pause to figure out their next move before going ahead, instead of just patching together while the next real set of creators are trying to figure out where to go next.

[the film freak]

Not always bored, but sometimes the stories aren't that good and I attribute it to the neccessity of delivering a monthly comic.

For instance, I love all the Astonishing X-Men characters. This has got to be my favourite grouping of X-Men. It's got all the characters that I love. However, it'd be kinda sucky if they continue the book without having a set creative team. Imagine if you will that Brubaker didn't have his story ready for the finale of Bendis's run, so since it's a monthly, they decided to have someone come in, temporarily to bridge the gap between Bendis and Brubaker.

Maybe I'm way off on this, but instead of having a whole bunch of comics just going on and on, getting cancelled and re-booted...imagine ongoing comics actually taking a pause to figure out their next move before going ahead, instead of just patching together while the next real set of creators are trying to figure out where to go next.

I still don't see the problem. Batman is doing this right now. Grant Morrison and Andy Kubert are running behind and there's a John Ostrander and Tom Mandrake story that people are enjoying going on right now for four issues.

If you prefer to wait for Grant Morrison and Andy Kubert you can skip the Mandrake and Ostrander issues, if you need a Batman fix you got a solid creative team. Heck some people prefer the Ostrander/Mandrake team over Morrison and Kubert.

Occasional one shot fill in issues and short story arcs are a good place to try out new talent. It doesn't always have to fit neatly with the continuity of the other stories. And if it sucks no harm done, maybe the next guy will do better.

12 issues a year isn't a lot. And with most storylines taking over 6 issues I don't see this as a problem. Unless you're not enjoying it. But then again you don't have to read it.

Honestly expecting a consistent creative team on a big two book (that isn't creator owned) is a pipe dream. Not every Marvel book can be Ultimate Spider-man. If you like consistent creative teams and storylines with definitive endings you're better off reading one of the many independent books. They might arrive less frequently then the Big Two books but they are usually more satisfying.

[Deep_Sleeper]

Oh, I definitely read other stuff. But, with so many books that get cancelled before their time, sometimes, you just gotta stick with the safe bets.

Things like Wildcats 3.0. I loved that book, but it got cancelled. I'm not even sure how long before Iron Fist gets cancelled. I love how Dark Horse keeps publishing Conan and I'm hoping it won't get cancelled anytime soon. Kurt Busiek just left, so it's wait and see.

[Citizen V]

As long as the character in question has a good writer,good stories can always be done.

[Drink]

I can agree with this. Sometimes, it just seems like they're towing the line, telling stories just to fill the deadline and not to actually make quality stories.

Besides, for the most part, most any story that can be told in this field has probably been told to death as it is. Kill someone, make the hero evil, friend turned villain, all done ad nauseum.

Granted, sometimes a writer comes along and does a great story, but for the most part, Superheroes are beyond played out. They flooded the market, essentially.

[the film freak]

Things like Wildcats 3.0. I loved that book, but it got cancelled.

Wildcats 3.0 is almost the complete opposite of what you've been asking for in this thread though. Wildcats Vol 2 came out with Lobdell and Charest who flake out after a few issues and Joe Casey and Sean Phillips come onboard tied up loose plotlines and end up creating a much better book which got low sales and was relaunched as Wildcats 3.0 though.

[Deep_Sleeper]

Wildcats 3.0 is almost the complete opposite of what you've been asking for in this thread though. Wildcats Vol 2 came out with Lobdell and Charest who flake out after a few issues and Joe Casey and Sean Phillips come onboard tied up loose plotlines and end up creating a much better book which got low sales and was relaunched as Wildcats 3.0 though.

That was a reply to the question of "If you don't want to constantly be reading the same superhero book, why don't you try something else?".

This thread is bred more from the fact that nowadays, some of the creative teams you want to see on books can't keep a schedule that is set. Instead of waiting for the creative team to finish the work (like Ultimates or Civil War), some titles are released with a fill-in creator which is a big turn off sometimes.

Classic example was when Frank Quitely couldn't meet any of the deadlines set for New X-Men and his back up artist, Ethan Van Sciver, couldn't fill in, either. So they got someone who was so ill-fit to draw the book that it really took me out of a very invigorating comic reading experience when they got Igor Kordey to draw a few issues.

My solution is...if you can't get a creative team to fill the monthly grind, then just set it up as a limited series where the writer and artist begin and end a story together with no substitutes.

As for Wildcats 3.0. I originally got back into Wildcats because of Travis Charest. Left the book after the first fill in issue by Bryan Hitch. Only came back to 3.0 because Dustin Nguyen was drawing the book.

[Reptisaurus!]

I basically agree with this. I'd like to see comics follow something closer to the book publishing model. More Original Graphic Novels, and fewer books on a set (monthly) schedule.

But still less than eleven years between issues.

Yes, I'm bitter.

[stealthwise]

I basically agree with this. I'd like to see comics follow something closer to the book publishing model. More Original Graphic Novels, and fewer books on a set (monthly) schedule.

But still less than eleven years between issues.

Yes, I'm bitter.

Me too. I'd love to see different versions or volumes come out that reintroduce the characters in new contexts, rather than having 30+ years worth of continuity to sludge through, dealt with, or ignore. It's a lot more accessible that way. I love the Ultimate line for that, even if I'm not really reading much of it right now.

I'd love to see a relaunch of a company's superhero line every ten years or so, with lots of room for OGNs.

[Deep_Sleeper]

Yeah, basically that's what I was trying to get to...in my convoluted phrasing.

Instead of having so many monthly books (some characters with as many as 4 monthly books), it's really, really easy to ignore continuity.

I mean, there's so many creators...instead of just sticking them on one book and letting them write their stories, while another creator works on their own story about the same character, why not let one creator do some work, and then let the next creator come in after that.

My model would be the same kind of care and craft that Daredevil is seeing. Yes, Bendis did a monster of a run, but since there's only one Daredevil book, Ed Brubaker didn't have to consult 3 other DD books to find out what kind of DD stories he wanted to tell. His follow up was a natural progression of DD's story after Bendis left.

[stealthwise]

Yeah, basically that's what I was trying to get to...in my convoluted phrasing.

Instead of having so many monthly books (some characters with as many as 4 monthly books), it's really, really easy to ignore continuity.

I mean, there's so many creators...instead of just sticking them on one book and letting them write their stories, while another creator works on their own story about the same character, why not let one creator do some work, and then let the next creator come in after that.

My model would be the same kind of care and craft that Daredevil is seeing. Yes, Bendis did a monster of a run, but since there's only one Daredevil book, Ed Brubaker didn't have to consult 3 other DD books to find out what kind of DD stories he wanted to tell. His follow up was a natural progression of DD's story after Bendis left.

I'd be much more likely to buy Spider-Man if that were the case. Hell, I'd love to see team books actually feature only guys on TEAMS, rather than a bunch of superstar characters that already have their own monthly titles.

If you're going to have Wolverine on the X-Men, then make his ongoing a book like Origins, where the tales are set in the past and we won't get the terrible continuity issues that constantly occur.

Personally, I dug Marvel a lot more when most of the characters had titles independant of one another, they definitely read better in the trades.

[MartinRedmond]

Books like Ultimates and Astonishing X-Men will no doubt employ this method of continuing stories, so why not extend this kind of storytelling to your premiere titles?

I'd assume that would kill ad revenue. Then you can no longer afford most of your employees. Also, not everyone is a fan of those books, so you're losing readers outside of that appeal range.

[Deep_Sleeper]

Marvel is a pretty big company. I doubt that having one title on pause get in the way of other comics coming out. There's a lot of books coming out right now, some real quality work.

If you take into consideration that some of the books like Ultimates, or Astonishing, or All-Star Superman, all of which comes out with discrepencies in their release schedule, you still see them sell.

Point of fact, I think breaks between story arcs would benefit most companies. I'd like to think that breaks between a comic coming out would allow some readers to explore other titles, in between.

I'd like to think that there's a possibility that some comic readers, while waiting to spend their money on a book like Ultimates or Planetary, will look to other titles to read while they wait for their "must-read" books to come out.

[stealthwise]

Marvel is a pretty big company. I doubt that having one title on pause get in the way of other comics coming out. There's a lot of books coming out right now, some real quality work..

Er... Civil War being delayed held up over a dozen other books. For weeks.

[Deep_Sleeper]

That's because the comic had Marvel universe spanning effect. That's another aspect...with so many different ongoings, it's hard to co-ordinate what's going on with who. There's plenty of inconsistencies about Civil War and it's details. In one comic, so many people died at Stamford...in another comic, a completely different number of people died. Very inconsistent.

I think if publishers looked towards comics that had a definitive begining and end, stories could be organized better between books.

[Green Lantern wannabe]

Retirement, eh?


Supergeezer hobbled up with his Admantium cane in one hand and asked, "What's going on?"

"MasterCreep has built a new doomsday device," one of the police officers explained, even as he tried to keep the crowd from overwhelming the city centre, where the super heroes were assembling. "And he's threatening to blow up the world unless he's given a trillion dollars."

"I've fought his father when MasterCreep was still an infant, and I've always beaten Doctor Bad. And if this young whipper snapper thinks he's going to win ..." Supergeezer raised his cane, quivering, even as he showed his two remaining teeth.

:D

[stelok]

Old superheroes need an end? You mean they should be put out of the continuity? Are you kidding?

Many of old superheroes have become icons. Did you expect Superman to stay dead forever, after defeating Doomsday? Did you expect Batman to stay crippled permanently? Did you expect Hal Jordan to stay out of his Green Lantern duties and become Spectre permanently?

*reads your thread post* Oh, I see. Your title was misleading.

Well, it's a good idea to assign and replace creative teams on the book so we won't get bored.

Mark Gruenwald stuck to the book Captain America for nearly ten years and his later stories had become rather uninspirational and bland. It appeared that Mark Gruenwald had ran out of fresh new ideas. As had Peter David on the Incredible Hulk book.

All Good things come to an end.

[shyguy]

Marvel is a pretty big company. I doubt that having one title on pause get in the way of other comics coming out.

Yeah, but what happens when Spider-Man and the X-Men are on hiatus and the only books you've got coming out are Thing and Nextwave? Good though those books may be, they don't sell in Spider-Man/X-Men numbers.

As awful as Uncanny X-Men may be, it needs to come out every month because it's a guaranteed big-seller for Marvel.

Personally, I have no problem wading through garbage to get to the real gems. I can see the merit of the "Wait 'til somebody has an idea" approach, but I don't think it's feasible from a business standpoint as long as we still have the monthly single issues system in place.

[Mr.Writer]

What I say is that, in a way, characters of all kinds need an "end". What Marvel suffers from is it's desire to constantly perserve the status quo in Marvel land, and that doesn't abode well. All stories have an end, and sometimes a character needs to retire or die, or just plain age. It's no wonder time is screwy in the DCU, no one pays attention to it anyway. Nothing ever changes they say-but lord, do they.