The Gold standard, ...or is it???

[negation]

Joe Q once titled the Ultimate line as the " Gold Standard " , I beg to differ...

When I first started reading them they were all of high quality, I purchased all 7 spidey HCs, The Ultimates, first 4 X-men HCS and both FF HCS. I would have argued at this point that these were the flag ship version off all 4 titles,

Spiderman had Bendis & Bagley
Ultimates had Millar & Hitch
Ult X had Millar/Bendis with Kuberts & Finch
Ult FF had Bendis/Ellis/Millar, with assist from Kubert, Immomen & land
Wow thaT WAS ALOT OF TALENT, but now where do we stand

Ult Spidey still has the core team
Ultimates had had like 1 issue out in the last 6 months, ridiculous and soon will have a change to Loeb & mad
Ult-x went to BKV/Immomen and now Kirkland & his rotating artists ( this book went down to average and now aweful
Ult FF-now has Carey/Ferry and Mark brooks will soon be taking over

What does Marvel need to do to salvage this line,
They need to get Kirkland off Ult X and get some a-list artist on the book
I am not liking the art on FF, to bad Jae Lee is doing dark Tower, I loved his take on this book
Ultimates needs to be finished, they need to launch the new series
They need to hope Immomen will not be to jarring off a change from Bagley
They need to put out at least 1 new title maybe 2. Maybe an Ultime Knights is in line ( could be argued that New Avengers will fit that spot ),
They need more originality, we do not need to see every charecter who ever existed get ultimized, come up with new stories, new foes

When I first got back into comics the Ultimate line was a big reason, I saw these great looking HCs at borders and was sucked back in

Save this line Joey Q, do something before it is to late

[Beast]

Re: Ultimate X-Men.

For one, his name is Kirkman. And he's only on the title until Bryan Singer's run is ready to go. Other than that, I agree. The book was so great under everyone that came before. Hoping that now that he's revamping things and going with an 'All-New All-Different Ultimate X-Men' it might thrive again.

And no, they don't need to expand the line any further. They've said time and again they want to keep the universe small. The four core books with the occassional mini is perfectly fine for the moment. Let the 'Marvel Knights' type characters continue to play parts in the other books like Ultimate Spider-Man.

[garin]

Ultimate FF is better than Fantastic Four.
Ultimate Spidey is better than any of the main line's Spider-Man books.
The Ultimates is better than New Avengers (for now, anyway.)
Ultimate X-Men is the exception, and does need attention pretty desperately. The 616 X-books are much better at the moment.

For the most part, I think it still is the "gold standard". Things may change with Loeb's Ultimates, but for the moment I'm pretty happy with the quality of the line.

[Sparda]

Don't know how Loeb is gonna do on Ultimates but I hope he does'nt screw it up. Sure he's not gonna live up to Millar on what he did on ultimates, but hope he keeps it a very good series.

Fire Kirkman. Get Chris claremount to get the F*CK off exiles and write ultimate X-Men. He's the man that made mutants what they are today, he should uniquely do the same for Ultimate X-Men.

Bendis and Bagley are going strong on spider-man, but don't know if it'll have that great magic after Bagley leaves but the replacement artist is worthy of drawing ult spidey. People can bitch all they want about Bendis, but he's the one who basically started the ultimate line, by doing ultimate Spidey. Hope he continues on the series. As a note, Kirkman did mention that he wanted to do Ultimate spidey, but I'll be damned if that ever happend.

Ult FF is still going strong at this moment and it's my favorite team book at this moment. Mike Carey is doing a excellent job and hope he stays on the book alot longer.

At this moment the mini Ultimate power is meh, cause of Lands art and Bendis doing an ok story but I'm not gonna fault it. I like the idea of the ultimate verse taking on supreme power and by issue 5, Mike sycheski (however you spell his last name) will take over the book and this guy will stay true to ultimate power and make the book a hot mini as a prediction. I also hope this even leaves a lasting impact on both universes and it would be cool if they did switch characters.

Ultimate Vision is good as well. I would enjoy it alot more if I've had read the Galactus trilogy (which I'll get all three books when I get the cash) but despite that it's a good mini. Again it's by the awesome Mr. Carey and shows more in depth of Vision and would love to see more upon the charactizion of Falcon (especially falling in love with vision)

Right now I consider Ult spidey to be the strong book of the verse along with Ult FF. The other 2 is meh (Ultimates has got to finish jeez) and X-men is................you get the point. But the mini's are saving the Ultimate verse from oblivion though, and as the thread starter has said, they should make more ultimate exclusive villians and make the verse more different than 616 (not to the point of making cable wolverine, that was just lame and hope that get's a retcon punch to get that disaster out of the way).

[gorthon616]

Ultimate Bendis... I mean Spider-Man has gone on too long. Bendis needs to be gone and fresh blood needs to be in. He's too flavor/ultimization of the week, at first it was alright, but I honestly feel someone needs to tell him to stop making characters so that other (and frankly more interesting) ideas are given room in the UMU. Plus, it feels too much like it's the same 'ole same 'ole.

X-Men needs to be re-done. Particularly considering that the X-Books are the best they have been in a very, very long time.

Ultimate Fantastic Four is one of the best comic books ever. Period.

Ultimate is solid. Yes, Loeb isn't going to get all political, but I'm not at the "lets-jump-ship" point, or even close. It's funny how both Avengers books are getting the same gripe. New Avengers isn't the real Avengers, Loeb's Ultimates isn't the real Ultimates. Even more odd is how it seems most people don't argue the point consistently.

Ultimate Galactus was interesting. Frankly, not worth being labeled "Ultimate Galactus," but I like a good Ellis space story, which is what it was.

Ultimate Vision has been interesting and has me hooked.

So Gold standard? No. Not anymore. It's just an alternate line which is capable of hits misses and on-goings that will keep ongoing forever.

[Gargus]

I agree on UXM, its been on a downhill slide. To me it started when millar left. I really loved how he did it but it declined after he left. Just turned into a "whos the next mutant we can ultimatize next?" series of stories and the charcters got toned down alot.

And now its just a soap opera is all, I know it has been all along but now its one in the sense of who is screwing who and a bunch of teenage angst stuff.

[rwsmith]

I think Ultimate X-men would be a lot better if it had a better artist attached to it. Since the Ultimates will have Joe Mad soon, USM will have Immomen, and UFF will have Mark Brooks, I think UXM should have an artist that has a similar, cartoony style to those three. My vote would be for Mike McKone. I think he would kill on Ultimate X-men.

[Beast]

I think Ultimate X-men would be a lot better if it had a better artist attached to it.
A wise man once said... "You can't polish a turd." No matter how pretty the art is, the writing is what's been the real massive disappointment about Kirkman's Ultimate X-Men.

[Greg Anderson]

A wise man once said... "You can't polish a turd." No matter how pretty the art is, the writing is what's been the real massive disappointment about Kirkman's Ultimate X-Men.

Heh, QTF.

I actually enjoy the art in the book... Man, if only I was a comic writer...:( Kirkman's messing up one of my favorite books.

[Beast]

Heh, QTF.

I actually enjoy the art in the book... Man, if only I was a comic writer...:( Kirkman's messing up one of my favorite books.
I have high hopes for the next three issues though. A massive shake-up of the book and the return of my favorite Ultimate character. I'll be sticking around to see where things go with all this. :)

[Greg Anderson]

Well, you already know where I stand with Beast returning (meh!), but I've always feltBishop had great potential as a character and tend to love his stories, so here's hoping Kirkman gives Bishop some justice. I read something of him possibly becoming the new leader, I'm all for it.

[xarathos]

From what I've read Ultimate Spider-man is the only good thing to come out of this Ultimate Line. Much of which has to do with the fact that the regular Spider-man has been changed so much that he's unrecognizable. Though Ultimates seems like a cool book, it seldom comes out.

Ultimate X-men seems.... strange. IT's come to 'what's the point?'

They were supposed to be simpler so new readers could 'get it'. However, first, JOE, You actually have to have the book come out on time.

[RichStanz]

Has anybody heard anything about Singer's X-Men run? Is it even still happening? Cause he's doing Logan's Run and another Superman movie, when is he going to have time to write even a few issues?

I could have sworn that Singer was announced on Ultimate X-Men around the time they announced Whedon for Astonishing. It seems like Kirkman (and even Vaughn) were just writing filler stories with peripheral characters, while Singer got his plot together.

I think its just time to move on. Either give Kirkman free reign (if he doesn't already have it) or just move onto a new gameplan.

[Joe-Dono]

Im still waiting for Ultimate Wolverine Vs. Hulk pt 3 to come out.. nearly 12 months late and counting ^_^

[Mister Mets]

I hate to say this, but given the low quality of Kirkman's Ultimate X-Men, Carey's Ultimate Fantastic Four, the lateness of Ultimate Wolverine VS Hulk/ Iron Man Volume 2, and the flaws of the Ultimate Galactus trilogy, I don't think you could consider the books as the Gold Standard any more, despite the incredible quality of Ultimates 2, and Ultimate Spider-Man.

[Greg Anderson]

I've actually been constantly hearing and reading great things about Carey's F4 run...:confused: It can't be that bad, then.

[gorthon616]

I've actually been constantly hearing and reading great things about Carey's F4 run...:confused: It can't be that bad, then.

If you like Carey, you'll love it (i.e. it's very much written in his style and within that is excellent). It's just written in a style that differs a lot from most comic books today. I made a post that kinda summed my opinions on the critiques of it on its own thread. But I recommend that you just give it a try.

[Harold of the Rocks]

I hate to say this, but given the low quality of Kirkman's Ultimate X-Men, Carey's Ultimate Fantastic Four, the lateness of Ultimate Wolverine VS Hulk/ Iron Man Volume 2, and the flaws of the Ultimate Galactus trilogy, I don't think you could consider the books as the Gold Standard any more, despite the incredible quality of Ultimates 2, and Ultimate Spider-Man.I think Carey's work on Ultimate Fantastic Four is excellent. His Ultimazation of Thinker rocked, and I am digging 'God War' as well. I like Millar's work on this book as well, but may place Carey at the top of Ultimate Fantastic Four writers so far... I think Ultimate Fantastic Four is perhaps the best of the Ultimate line, right up there with 'The Ultimates' (both I & II). As to the entire line? Well, of course there are some 616 books that are better than Ultimate books and vice-versa. I don't know how one could compare the two lines directly, makes no sense to me.

I'll second gorthon's recommendation. Read it.

[rwsmith]

Marvel has the perfect opportunity to re-establish the Ultimate line as "The Gold Standard" right now IMO.

1) The Ultimates - Jeph Loeb and Joe Mad (Vol. 3) / Ed McGuinness (Vol. 4) will likely sell like hotcakes, so all Marvel really needs to do here is make sure that Joe Mad has most of his issues in the can before they solicit the book (so that long delays don't kill the momentum like they did for Volumes 1 & 2).

2) Ultimate Spider-man - You've got an A-list writer in Bendis already on this book, as well as an A-list artist who is clamoring to do a run on a Spider-man book in the form of Dave Finch. Put the two of them together and you've got an Ultimate Spider-man title worthy of the name IMO.

3) Ultimate X-men - Millar and McNiven, 'nuff said.

4) Ultimate Fantastic Four - Mike Carey is doing some pretty good stuff on this book, but he needs a higher profile artist IMO. Pair him with someone like John Cassady (once Astonishing X-men wraps), Greg Land (once Ultimate Power is over) or Simone Bianchi (once he's finished with Wolverine).

Those are my suggestions as to how Marvel could begin re-establishing the Ultimate line as their premeire line of books at present.

[Ryan Day]

4) Ultimate Fantastic Four - Mike Carey is doing some pretty good stuff on this book, but he needs a higher profile artist IMO. Pair him with someone like John Cassady (once Astonishing X-men wraps), Greg Land (once Ultimate Power is over) or Simone Bianchi (once he's finished with Wolverine).


I'm not a huge Pascual Ferry fan, but I think he's perfect for a book like FF: he's got a great, glossy sci-fi feel to his art that fits perfectly with the stories Carey is telling. I'd take Cassaday, of course - who wouldn't? - but Bianchi doesn't feel terribly suited. And I'd prefer that Greg Land stay far, far away from any book I'd actually like to read.

[Alan2099]

I don't think the Ultimate books ever where "the gold standard."

Spider-man was always too decompressed and wasted far too many characters.
X-men felt like a normal X-title just with different details in it.
The Ultimates didn't really provide me with a single character I liked and seemed to enjoy dragging everybody though the mud far too foten. That's when it wasn't blatantly screaming about politics.

The Ultimate books were megahypered, but by no means gold.

[Ryan Day]

I don't think the Ultimate books ever where "the gold standard."


Marvel's marketing division disagrees with you. (http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=5986)

You can debate how much hype is involved there, but there's no questioning the success of the line, particularly for the first few years: Premiere creators, and books that significantly outsold their traditional counterparts.

[The Punished]

I think Carey's work on Ultimate Fantastic Four is excellent. His Ultimazation of Thinker rocked, and I am digging 'God War' as well. I like Millar's work on this book as well, but may place Carey at the top of Ultimate Fantastic Four writers so far... I think Ultimate Fantastic Four is perhaps the best of the Ultimate line, right up there with 'The Ultimates' (both I & II). As to the entire line? Well, of course there are some 616 books that are better than Ultimate books and vice-versa. I don't know how one could compare the two lines directly, makes no sense to me.

I'll second gorthon's recommendation. Read it.

I have got to third these guys on this. I am really enjoying reading Ultimate FF with God War also.

I think Bendis/Bagley doing what they have done on Ultimate Spidey is just incredible. I wish they would go on and on like the Energizer bunny.

Yeah, Ultimates is delayed but it is really the most eagerly anticipated title of them all and by delaying it justs stirs the pot a bit more, the nay-sayerers are gonna hate it because it was sub-par and took so long to get out and fan-boys are gonna love it because it is so friggin' sweet!

The Ultimate X-Men used a good plotline in the Cable story. My one fault to say is they killed Beast and Gambit in the books, Why? Why? Why?

[Butch Mapa]

I think the Ultimate U is still the gold standard. It's getting far less hype than it used to because of all the Civil War hoopla, but if you want solid, quality superhero stories, the Ultimate U is the imprint of choice.

UFF is my second favorite book. Carey's such an elegant writer, and Ferry's art is so slick, it gives the book a very classy, polished feel.

I'm curious to see what style Immonen will use for USM. His UFF style was boring-- maybe something like Nextwave, but pulled back a tad.

I'm so excited about Ultimates 3. I tradewaited the first 2 "seasons," but I don't think I'll be able to do that for Loeb/Mad.

UXM... pass. :)

[rwsmith]

See, in my mind the Ultimate Universe is where Marvel should send all of these high-profile artists who are slow as crap. Why? Because these books exist in their own universe, and thus don't affect a bunch of other books the way Civil War and Astonishing X-men do.

Imagine if Whedon and Cassaday were doing Ultimate X-men instead of Astonishing. Then it wouldn't matter if they were late, as there is no reason that the continuity of the book has to be worked out with anything else. It would sure save the editorial staff at Marvel a bunch of headaches, and since the Ultimate stuff seems more geared towards trades anyway, it would make sense to put the slower guys on these books.

Just my opinion, but guys like Hitch, Cassaday, McNiven, Finch, J. Scott Campbell, etc., would thrive in this environment.

[Butch Mapa]

rwsmith, damn if that isn't a good idea.

Heinberg/Campbell USM, Lindelof/Hairsine Ultimates, Smith/Joe Mad UXM, and Whedon/Cassaday UFF??? They'd put out like one TPB a year if we're lucky, but it'd be good!

(I heard Cassaday isn't slow though, just always distracted by side projects. He said he can do 30 pages a month.)

[The Foreigner]

rwsmith, damn if that isn't a good idea.

Heinberg/Campbell USM, Lindelof/Hairsine Ultimates, Smith/Joe Mad UXM, and Whedon/Cassaday UFF??? They'd put out like one TPB a year if we're lucky, but it'd be good!

(I heard Cassaday isn't slow though, just always distracted by side projects. He said he can do 30 pages a month.)

Yikes; Hairsine on Ultimates? He's the poor man's Hitch.

[lonesomefool]

I think the line needs a shot in the arm bad. Ultimate Spider-Man remains solid to very good every month, but the rest of the line is weak right now IMO.

Ultimates is ending in my eyes sometime this year, I have zero interest in Loeb and Madueria.

Ultimate X-Men under Kirkman is really suffering IMO. The art seems to change every month in terms of quality and the story is also weak.

Ultimate Fantastic Four has been up and down since Carey took over.

I think once the Civil War hub-bub dies down the line will get some attention again, I mean let's face it, due to the events at other companies and Marvel itself the death in Ultimate X-Men recently went unnoticed it seemed in some parts.

[BeastieRunner]

What they need is a huge ORIGINAL crossover event that's short and doesn't suck.

[dingo]

What they need is a huge ORIGINAL crossover event that's short and doesn't suck.

No, what they need to do is make sure that the four main titles that are coming out are of the highest quality.

Next on the list is to make sure any mini-series that come out are of the highest quality.

After that, my preference would be that they have stable creative teams on all the titles.

[carabas]

Yikes; Hairsine on Ultimates? He's the poor man's Hitch.

Better a poor man't Hitch that can do a book at least every other month or so, than a poor man's manga artist that does a book a year if he's really pushing himself.

[rwsmith]

rwsmith, damn if that isn't a good idea.

Heinberg/Campbell USM, Lindelof/Hairsine Ultimates, Smith/Joe Mad UXM, and Whedon/Cassaday UFF??? They'd put out like one TPB a year if we're lucky, but it'd be good!

(I heard Cassaday isn't slow though, just always distracted by side projects. He said he can do 30 pages a month.)

All of those combinations sound good. Personally, though, I think mine would go like this:

Ultimate Spider-man: Whedon and J. Scott Campbell / Joe Quesada

Ultimate X-men: Millar and McNiven / Cassaday

The Ultimates: Jeph Loeb and Joe Mad / Ed McGuinness

Ultimate Fantastic Four: Warren Ellis and Marc Silvestri / Dave Finch

[pauwoo]

Ultimate FF is better than Fantastic Four.
Ultimate Spidey is better than any of the main line's Spider-Man books.
The Ultimates is better than New Avengers (for now, anyway.)
Ultimate X-Men is the exception, and does need attention pretty desperately. The 616 X-books are much better at the moment.

For the most part, I think it still is the "gold standard". Things may change with Loeb's Ultimates, but for the moment I'm pretty happy with the quality of the line.

I know this is only your opinion and you are more than entitled to it, but i have to disagree, they ultimate line was never anything more than a recycling of the best bits of the original universe, dressed up in new clothes for the attention deficient generation.

I don't anyone who still reads it and i'm surprised it is still going, the major problem with the real marvel universe is all these pointless world changing stories, that never seem to do that and hey if you didn't like that one. give it 6 months another will soon turn up.

I just wish that the powers that be at marvel would give it a rest and ban all this nonsense for a couple of years and concentrate on the titles themselves

[lonesomefool]

I get what your saying, but Hairsine is just as bad if not worse than Hitch in terms of scheduling at times. He couldnt even complete more than two issues of a mini (Wisdom).

[flapjaxx]

the death in Ultimate X-Men recently went unnoticed it seemed in some parts.

That's because no one believes Professor X is really dead, and it'd only attract embarrassment to Marvel were they to have advertised this. The title's been taken beyond cliche at this point. I'm surprised they don't complete the transition from "revisioning" of the 616 line to outright parody by bringing other characters back from the dead now. Oh wait...

As far as Joe Mad on Ultimates . . . Honestly, I doubt he'll be slower than Hitch. When he was the regular artist on Uncanny he used to be able to do about 8-9 issues every year. Maybe his art's gotten more meticulous now, though? It's hard to say. At the moment I don't think he has any other distractions--designing video games or trying to run his own company--like he did when he was supposed to be drawing Battle Chasers.

[dingo]

As far as Joe Mad on Ultimates . . . Honestly, I doubt he'll be slower than Hitch. When he was the regular artist on Uncanny he used to be able to do about 8-9 issues every year. Maybe his art's gotten more meticulous now, though? It's hard to say. At the moment I don't think he has any other distractions--designing video games or trying to run his own company--like he did when he was supposed to be drawing Battle Chasers.

Any artist could slow down to a crawl if the expectations are high enough.
I wouldn't be surprised if we have the occasional 3 month wait for an issue.

Which will be like heaven compared to the wait we have with Hitch.

[lonesomefool]

True, but as far as I am concerned Ultimates is cancelled after Millar and Hitch leave. I just dont like Loeb's writing and Madueria isnt my style of artwork that I enjoy. I'm sure it will sell like rocketbusters and will probably be a good popcorn action movie book, but I dont really care to pay money for that, especially in the hands of Loeb who is one of the worst writers Marvel has these days.

[RagingSaxon]

Im still waiting for Ultimate Wolverine Vs. Hulk pt 3 to come out.. nearly 12 months late and counting ^_^

Agreed. It is a travesty. WTF is going on there?

[leestaunton]

It's fair to say that the quality of the Ultimate line has declined over the last 12 months or so. I'm a big Kirkman fan but am struggling to keep interest X-Men, Fantastic Four lost me once Millar Left. I'm only left collecting Spidey and The Ultimates (which is dropped once Millar and Hitch end their run, not of fan of Loeb unfortunately).

[Butch Mapa]

I just wish that the powers that be at marvel would give it a rest and ban all this nonsense for a couple of years and concentrate on the titles themselves

Well, ban might be too strong a word, but Marvel's been concentrating on the main line for the past few years. Heck, that's probably what prompted the creation of this thread in the fist place.

[mattx110]

Well, ban might be too strong a word, but Marvel's been concentrating on the main line for the past few years. Heck, that's probably what prompted the creation of this thread in the fist place.

yea... they just need strong editors in the UU, and in the regular books.

it should be easier to manage the ultimate universe, but really, everyone wants to use their favorite characters, so we've got a couple different version of "ultimate" characters, and with 4? monthlys, continuity builds up pretty fast.
it's just nice that they can do a crossover in 4 issues and include the whole universe instead of lasting 70 issues over 35 titles.
keep the UU small and it won't interfere with MU, and there are good writers/artists in both books.

[Alan2099]

I think part of the problem latley is they've been trying to take an Ultimate tone with the regualr marvel universe while ignoring the actual Ultimatverse.