Motivating your artist friends.

[The Xenos]

I've got something of a quandary. I've have a couple of friends who are art majors or graduates. They both have expressed interest in making comics, namely web comics.

One of them already has one going, but it's been stalled for some time. The last strip he posted was in September. Since then he posted filler of a pumpkin he carved and a random illustration he made using a new Wacom tablet. In the past the web comic has also been filled with other filler and guest strips. One week early on I even cobbled together a comic using previous artwork. Now a good sign.

Now to be fair he's been somewhat busy with his life. He's been helping and visiting family now and then. He's moved from one part of his family house to another which he remodeled and renovated. He also had to learn how to draw with his new tablet. Though a month or more after all that, even now he hasn't put up a new strip.

Still, I can't help but think there's more to it then him being just busy. It's rather been bothering me that he really needs some motivation. He's got to learn to do his comic and do his work as an illustrator in general around his life's schedule. He can't keep using a busy life as an excuse. Everyone has one. I just don't know how to nicely tell him this. That we've known each other as kids and he's been a surrogate big brother to me surely doesn't help.

I've offered help with scripts, but he seems to brush it off. I can't tell if he doesn't want help or what. His friends and he himself keep joking about his ego. I myself keep working that his web comic is more of an ego trip for himself than an actual web comic. Again, how do I confront him with these concerns. Plus I suggested having an actual comic for an upcoming convention, something I've seen many others do. He's sold prints and t-shirts before at his booth. Yet he was hesitant of the idea and said he was generally too busy right now and brushed it off.

My other artist friend is a bit more casual with his art. He's been holding various jobs over the year. We did do a weekly comic for our college with various quality week to week. He's thinking of doing a web comic and starting out now so he has a backlog of comics before he actually has a site. I've seen one of them, I haven't really pushed him because I wasn't sure of his interest. He also has been working on other things. Plus he's not always talking about his comic like my other friend.

Plus I guess maybe part of this is selfish. Or maybe I'm just not selling myself well enough. Maybe it's me. I've been itching to do a comic book or web comic with someone. I figure I should work with one if not both of these two artist friends instead of trying to find another artist myself. Yet if neither of these friends show interest in working on stuff I write, I can't help but feel maybe I should look elsewhere for help making a comic or web comic.

I dunno. I figured with so many artists, writers, and web comic creators around here, this would be a good place to ask.

[TomStillwell]

Not everybody, no matter how talented, has the tools to work in comics.

One of these tools is self motivation. Drive.

Your friends don't seem to have it. It's something that comes from within. You can't motivate them.

As for finding an artist for yourself, I wouldn't rely on them. Doing so only holds you back. You're better off finding someone eager to work, eager to break in, and offering them monetary compensation.

[amboy00]

I know a few people who are really really talented and have crummy jobs. They know they have the skills too. One guy in particular is really good at what he does but he never gets around to it.

I blame the job, personally, but ultimately its up to him.

[MartinRedmond]

Dude, 2 words to get whatever you want out of people: compliments and flaterry.

[Sarah Beach]

Motivating them isn't easy. They have to get engaged themselves if they're going to deliver good work.

And for the writer who wants to see pages of art for his own story... it's hard if you're going to rely on your friends to do it.

When I was doing my story for the Shooting Stars Anthology #1, I coughed up the money and paid Gordon Purcell (and inker Terry Pallet) to do my pages. (Gordon gave me a good rate for it, since we were friends, but still... I did pay for it!) And that was great. It was also gratifying to have him say afterward that he'd love to work on another script of mine!

That's one reason, over on ComicSpace, I sent out a bulletin about a script of mine that was passed on by DC editors. (http://www.scribblerworks.us/works/BATMAN-Chipping%20In.htm)
It's not that I need to have editors look at my writing, but just that it would be interesting to see what different artists could make of the script. Whether my writing is giving the artist everything he needs, that sort of thing.

But, again.... you can't generate motivation for your friends, if they're not ready to jump at it themselves. Other than by saying that you like their work.

[Citizen V]

Why is it that so many people want to get into comics?Is it the fan`s dream?Let me say right now,not all people are going to actually get into the industry.I..know someone who is in-the-know,sort of speak..and for artists..its a bit harder than you would expect.

[Reverend Smooth]

Comics is one of those industries that's time-consuming, requires patience and dedication and, imo, requires something of a vocation.

Like all art businesses. Especially in the beginning. If you don't have that passion for it in specific, you just burn out or get aggravated at the tedium.

I tend to discourage friends from getting involved in any art business unless they're psychotically intense and have tough egos.

I also think that if you want friends to collaborate with you, you should pay them unless they're so into it that they're beating down YOUR door.

Probably because I personally view it as a job as well as a pleasure, and I hate to ask people to do actual work for me unless I can recompense them somehow. And drawing comics is generally hard work.

[Alex Dragon]

There really isn't a whole lot you can do. This kind of thing is fairly typical. What a lot of wannabe comic artists don't seem to realize is how much work, time and effort goes into drawing a comicbook. It seems like such a cool job and that person might like drawing for fun but when it becomes an actual job then sometimes it's not nearly as fun and cool. That's why when you go to various sites that have wannabe comicbook artists posting their artwork it's mostly pin-up stuff. A pin-up is fun because it's easy, doesn't take nearly as much time and the artist can basically draw what they want. Drawing an actual comic page is far more labor intensive and takes much more time. The artist also has to draw stuff they might consider boring like furniture, backgrounds and the like. Now this "cool" thing has become a drag.

Your friends have had a taste of the work it involves making comics and they must have found it hard, not worth the effort, unsatisfying or possibly all three. If your friend isn't motivated enough to continue his own comic it's highly unlikely he'll find the motivation to work on yours. That's fairly obvious from the brush offs your getting when you mention it. It's possible that paying him money would be enough to get him motivated but unless it's enough to make it worth his wild he'll simply turn you down or eventually flake on you and not finish the work.

If you do somehow get him to work with you, you'll have a much better shot at getting him excited if you create something together. If he feels it's his book/ideas too he'll have more of a vested interest in getting it done. If it's all your book and ideas then he'll just feel like he's working for you and might not even like what you're doing. When that's the case there's really no reason in his mind to put in the effort when he could be doing something more fun.

[Reverend Smooth]

There really isn't a whole lot you can do. This kind of thing is fairly typical. What a lot of wannabe comic artists don't seem to realize is how much work, time and effort goes into drawing a comicbook. It seems like such a cool job and that person might like drawing for fun but when it becomes an actual job then sometimes it's not nearly as fun and cool. That's why when you go to various sites that have wannabe comicbook artists posting their artwork it's mostly pin-up stuff. A pin-up is fun because it's easy, doesn't take nearly as much time and the artist can basically draw what they want. Drawing an actual comic page is far more labor intensive and takes much more time. The artist also has to draw stuff they might consider boring like furniture, backgrounds and the like. Now this "cool" thing has become a drag.Yeah. A lot of people really don't understand all the technical challenges of drawing sequential art.

I see beginners, in particular, make certain common mistakes quite often- extreme closeups when a lot of dialogue's been written for that panel, the person who speaks first being drawn too high up and on the wrong side of the panel, no logical flow, etc.

It's a lot of tedious stuff to learn, and something that artists don't necessarily realise when jumping into comics.

[The Xenos]

Not everybody, no matter how talented, has the tools to work in comics.

One of these tools is self motivation. Drive.

Your friends don't seem to have it. It's something that comes from within. You can't motivate them.

As for finding an artist for yourself, I wouldn't rely on them. Doing so only holds you back. You're better off finding someone eager to work, eager to break in, and offering them monetary compensation.

Oh geez. It's that Zen mumbo jumbo again. Kidding. I've just been reading old issues of O'Neil's The Question and you reminded me of some of the stuff he was taught by Richard Dragon.

Plus, even if they don't work on my stuff, I just want them to get their art together for themselves. Plus I don't think they'd be interested in some of my other stories anyway.


Why is it that so many people want to get into comics?Is it the fan`s dream?Let me say right now,not all people are going to actually get into the industry.I..know someone who is in-the-know,sort of speak..and for artists..its a bit harder than you would expect.

I almost don't care too much to break in. It'd be a dream, but it's far from a goal or a desired profession. I've got a whole different major and career path in science anyway. This is more of a hobby. I just have these ideas and I'd like to get them out. If I can make some money and get known in the industry, that'd be cool too. I certainly am not quitting my day job, Er.. whenever I graduate and get one again.


Why is it that so many people want to get into comics?Is it the fan`s dream?Let me say right now,not all people are going to actually get into the industry.I..know someone who is in-the-know,sort of speak..and for artists..its a bit harder than you would expect.

The weird thing is, my artist friends are more into the anime scene and those conventions. They both were somewhat into American comics, but are much more into manga and anime convnetions. It's amazing to see these hordes of comic book fans at these cons who just don't read American comics. It's a whole different scene. To be honest, I have no clue where it's going to lead or what the US comics industry is going to look like because of it.


Yeah. A lot of people really don't understand all the technical challenges of drawing sequential art.

I see beginners, in particular, make certain common mistakes quite often- extreme closeups when a lot of dialogue's been written for that panel, the person who speaks first being drawn too high up and on the wrong side of the panel, no logical flow, etc.

It's a lot of tedious stuff to learn, and something that artists don't necessarily realise when jumping into comics.


See. This is something I've noticed too. My friend with the web comic didn't take too kindly to one critique. He pointed out that he has a degree in art and design. I was about to point out that I've likley been reading and studying more comics than he has, but I didn't want to make too much of it. It was only a panel placement in a draft of his web comic.

See, I think and rethink layouts. I like doing layout and panels and lettering, but my character drawing skills are lacking. Gave up on that back in highschool. Though I don't know if, where I to do layouts, that helps the artist or confines him. I guess it depends on the artist. Of course if they come up with something better to fit the story, I'd surely let them roll with it.

Anyway, thanks for all the replies.

[Red Jack]

Hmmm.

Motivating people to do something they claim they want to do already but which they are not doing?

In my experience people do what they want to do and only that. Writers write. Illustrators illustrate. You can't stop them.

My advice? Encourage (low key), help (if asked), support (as a freind) but mostly back away.

You're not responsible for their dreams.

Coda:

unless you come into a big wad of cash for self/small press publishing. Then you can hire them. Once you're paying them, they owe product and a check is a strong motivator.

[Magneto_X]

Why is it that so many people want to get into comics?Is it the fan`s dream?Let me say right now,not all people are going to actually get into the industry.I..know someone who is in-the-know,sort of speak..and for artists..its a bit harder than you would expect.

It's a small industry where the majority actually have a decent shot at either making their own comics* or even joining the majors (among all the entertainment industries it seems to be the one with the least obstacles and competition**).

* anyone can make a comic (even if they just draw stick figures). All you need is a pencil, pen, write a script and a photocopier/Kinkos

** unlike stuff like movies, video-games, tv shows, cartoons etc that require far more capital, there is more competition (especially in acting) and requires more people involved (tv shows and movies can have hundreds to thousands of people involved unlike comics that can be made by one or a dozen at most [unless it's an anthology])

[Zack]

Go on YouTube.

Find the Family Guy video of Stewie going on about Brian's novel.

Make them watch it at least once every day.

Seriously, one thing that can really get you off your ass when it comes to writing is just realizing how long has gone by without your finishing anything. In recent years, I've had the excuse that I hadn't written anything fictional because my day job was journalism, and I'd occasionally get some side-writing thing like doing a short picture book.

But realizing that I hadn't finished a graphic novel or fiction script in years was pretty painful -- it was like, wow, I hadn't seriously put myself out there, and I was also pretty far away from being ABLE to realize it, because when I did sit down to work on it, the writing was just awful. I realized I had to make a pretty hard, consistent effort at it if I was ever going to get the crap out of my system and create something I was proud of.

My big New Year's resolution was to write at least one page of fiction every weekday starting Jan.1. I had 90 pages on my children's book then, and I have 139 as of tonight, and I think I might be able to finish a draft in the next month. It might still wind up being crap...

Seriously, the only way, THE ONLY WAY to realize your dream is to just pound away at it, and if you're not willing to do that...you might have to ask yourself if you really want it, or if you just like the daydream.

[Karen El]

First I'd like to say that all creative people have times when they feel unmotivated. I spent more time than I like to think about drifting and starting projects and then losing interest. That was part of the reason I started Planet Karen - to give myself a short term goal that was achievable. Since then I've produced nearly 300 pages of comics. Lack of motivation does not mean you're in the wrong business.

Stuff that can kickstart your creativity can be mad things like the 24 hour comic challenge. You don't have to wait for the official day, just decide to do it and go for it. Or go to a life drawing evening class or something. Anything that gets you drawing is a positive step.

[Reverend Smooth]

See. This is something I've noticed too. My friend with the web comic didn't take too kindly to one critique. He pointed out that he has a degree in art and design. I was about to point out that I've likley been reading and studying more comics than he has, but I didn't want to make too much of it. It was only a panel placement in a draft of his web comic.<pedantic>
I think that a good comic artist (and colorist, writer, letterer, whatever) has to have an ego that's big enough to withstand frequent rejection (especially in the beginning) and secure enough to take legit criticism constructively (especially in the beginning).

Anybody illustrating comics needs to read up on layout, preferably one of those courses or an in-depth tutorial. A lot of people just breaking in don't. Heck, even some published people don't. A degree in art and design is good and all, but there are certain design elements that are specific and necessary to comics (and manga). And they are not necessarily intuitive to the novice, which is why one should check one's insecurity at the door and soak in as much advice from people who know how comics are put together.

Serious pros know this. Somebody who gets defensive about a panel in a webcomic is not ready to work with you on the title that you write, because he will need to take direction and critique from you to help render your artistic vision into art. (You'd think that most people with an education in art and design would know this, because you have to work for demanding clients eventually.)

I and the penciller on the project that I'm currently working on have swapped constructive criticism- me on a few panels (he'd been unavoidably rushed), him on some colors (I'd never colored a darkroom scene before). Instead of getting all defensive, we were able to separate ourselves from our art, get over feeling silly for making mistakes, fix the issues, and move on. The result was art that was better because we got over ourselves. Not only that, but it resulted in a better creative bond. If we'd instead got upset -- Him, say, saying, 'I've got over a decade more art experience than you, sod off,' or me saying, say, 'Look, this is just my style' -- we'd've just had lower-quality art and some bad attitude between us.

Because honestly, I'd rather that the three-person creative team, instead of the whole world, notices the proverbial zit on my artistic nose. And I really owe it to the reader to deliver quality stuff if he's shelling out money to pay for my rent.
</pedantic>

[MartinRedmond]

My advice? Encourage (low key), help (if asked), support (as a freind) but mostly back away.

You're not responsible for their dreams.

Yeah, but if you want something from them it doesn't matter. Just use compliments and put some pressure on hem. Solitary work done in isolation is harder than as a group or surrounded by people so I say coaching is the way to go.

[TomStillwell]

Yeah, but if you want something from them it doesn't matter. Just use compliments and put some pressure on hem. Solitary work done in isolation is harder than as a group or surrounded by people so I say coaching is the way to go.

Just how many artists have you motivated to produce work in this fashion?

[Red Jack]

Yeah, but if you want something from them it doesn't matter. Just use compliments and put some pressure on hem. Solitary work done in isolation is harder than as a group or surrounded by people so I say coaching is the way to go.

I don't mean to argue about this (SHOOCKING, I know) but, really, this is one of those Yoda moments.

Do. Do not. There's no try.

or, iow, you have to motivate yourself. no one can do it for you.

The hardest thing most artists have to learn is that talent and desire are almost as worthless as story ideas. What counts most is WORK.

Writing is a solitary activity as is illustration. You're on your own. So, if you can't get yourself to do something you claim you want to do, no one else is going to be able to get you off your ass. you won't until you are good and ready and that's that.

I'm not the best writer I know. I'm certainly not the best illustrator I know. But every day I'm writing. Every day. without fail. without deviation. without anyone kicking me or complimenting me. every day.

My partner on the Red Line is the same way with art. He is, in addition to the paid work he gets (which is considerable), almost constantly drawing or "stealing" a technique to improve his work. It's not even a thought process. Even when he's not on the clock he has a sketch book in hand for "noodling" as he calls it.

if someone wants to do something and they have the skill to bring it about the only impediment between them and the thing is the work.

Money is a motivator for some jobs, hence commercial art, but, for the long haul, the fuel must be the artist him or herself.

It sounds hokey but it really does have to come from within.

Friends can help by alternately being supportive and getting the hell out of the way but they can't actually get you to do it until you actually want to do it.

[JamesRitcheyIII]

We live in the Western Culture, and anyone who says that artists should primarily be motivated by the need to do art, are living in the 'Star Trek Universe'. I get awfully motivated when money, or the hope of money, and/or publication are involved. I make deadlines, put 100&#37; into it, and have a big, big smile. If I do corporate commissions, I get paid more than most working comics professionals, and those paying me take it for granted. To start at the bottom in comics indicates reckless abandon, HOLY FIRE, not just motivation--you gotta love it to do it, PERIOD. Just have publication or hope for money cinched up, people, and we'll follow you to the four corners.

The writer in me, in the meantime, wants the artist in me to do all these things for free, based on some illusory 'Grail'--the poor sap.

My two halves aren't talking right now.

p.s. Just made the 'Top Ten' list for the month of January--after three days of having posted the art at ArtWanted.com. (http://www.artwanted.com/artist.cfm?ArtID=27721)

[Magneto_X]

I know I need someone to motivate me to do my comic artwork. :(

[Reverend Smooth]

Well, it's a business. It's a job. You can't start your own business and slack and expect to succeed. You can't just show up at a demanding job and slack and expect to succeed. Art is no different than any other job when you make it your job.

[The Xenos]

My partner on the Red Line is the same way with art. He is, in addition to the paid work he gets (which is considerable), almost constantly drawing or "stealing" a technique to improve his work. It's not even a thought process. Even when he's not on the clock he has a sketch book in hand for "noodling" as he calls it.

I know at least one of my artist friends does that. Wouldn't always show it off and I'm cool with that. I remember reading Scott Pilgrim and telling him he had to read it because it reminded me of some of his recent style. Then again, maybe he and O'Malley are just both big Zelda: Windwaker fanboys.

[howyadoin]

Not much I can add to this that Tom and Red Jack haven't already said. The artists have to supply their own motivations; otherwise they'll eventually resent you and do piss-poor art as a result.

[The Xenos]

Well my friend finally got most of his web comic colored as I saw last night at his place. We went to see a movie, I dropped off some Trigun manga which he hadn't bought yet. (And maybe some that's not out in the US yet. Shh, don't tell Dark Horse. Eh, we're both buying the volumes anyway. I just beat him this time.) Oh and I had to watch the Scrubs musical before we went to see the movie (Smoking Aces, btw, NOT Epic Movie.)

Anyway, he had it colored. It looked as detailed and colored as a professional comic, more work than most webcomics. It was a comic he told me about back in December. It was loosely based on a story I told him a while back about this conversation I had with a girl on the subway after she saw my Sandman t shirt. I backed off when we got to my stop and didn't give my number or anything even though we kinda hit it off. Pretty much I was too reminded of the last girl I was with who was also into Sandman and was just really gun shy.

Anyway, so he's writing that. I don't know what he's writing. He's basing it loosely on what I told him and putting himself next to me instead of another friend. Eh. As long as he gets it done and doesn't make it sound too horrible, I'm fine with him doing his thing with my story. I even told him to make me more psychotic at the end and break down for comedy's sake. Anyway, at least he's finally got a new comic.

[JamesRitcheyIII]

I know I need someone to motivate me to do my comic artwork. :(

It's old, corny shit you heard thousands of times, but--DRAW!!!! No excuse for you not to have a pad and pencil within reach constantly. Draw ANYTHING--the actual act begets creativity, and you'll eventually feel guilty about not working on that which YOU SHOULD be working on--like that two page splash from that no paying, suck-up writer. Plus, if you draw constantly YOU GET BETTER. No excuse for you to be typing that sentence instead of drawing. An' fer Chris'sakes, man--take deep breathes! And B-12! Maybe some Ginseng. In the words of Matt Wagner--turn off the damn TV. :D

Writers--can't get started? WRITE!!! blahblahblah...

In the meantime, I could've written a 22 page comics script, after doing exhaustive research and broken down the plot, for say a six issue serial, and been five-six pages into the pencil art, JUST from the time I've been wasting on these forums over the last nine days.

My writer and artist halves are back on speaking terms, Magneto-X--thanks for the pep-talk!

I'm gonna go follow my own advice.

[howyadoin]

It's old, corny shit you heard thousands of times, but--DRAW!!!! No excuse for you not to have a pad and pencil within reach constantly. Draw ANYTHING--the actual act begets creativity, and you'll eventually feel guilty about not working on that which YOU SHOULD be working on--like that two page splash from that no paying, suck-up writer. Plus, if you draw constantly YOU GET BETTER.Bingo. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy, almost.

And drawing constantly will eventually lead to more and more ideas for things to draw, and so on. I've got so many things on the go now it's ridiculous, but I'm definitely not complaining.