Civil War - What really happened?

[Augie De Blieck Jr.]

Did you see this preview for PUNISHER: WAR JOURNAL #3 yet:

http://comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=9410

COMPLETELY contradicts CIVIL WAR #5. Not even a "different point of view" problem. This is an outright fork of continuity.

Is Marvel becoming unglued, editorially?

-Augie

[torippu]

Did you see this preview for PUNISHER: WAR JOURNAL #3 yet:

http://comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=9410

COMPLETELY contradicts CIVIL WAR #5. Not even a "different point of view" problem. This is an outright fork of continuity.

Is Marvel becoming unglued, editorially?

-Augie
Hmmm, I'm not seeing it. I know that I can be slow on these types of things but what in CW#5 is it contradicting? I read the preview and it just looks like it is expanding on the scene where Cap beat the crap out of Punisher in CW#6.

[Augie De Blieck Jr.]

Whoops, I meant to say issue #6.

The excerpt ends with Frank Castle wanting to fight Cap, which is 180 degrees backwards from CIVIL WAR #6, where he says he can't fight Cap, no way no how.

-Augie

[goman]

Yeah, it seems different, and the end of the preview makes it looks like he want's to fight, but I'll have to reserve judgement till after I see then next page. If they do fight, then yes, it would seem the new motto at Marvel is "Make sure the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing." This would not be the first CW discrepancy though. You have to wonder what the expectations are from Marvel editorial. Are they looking at the actual issues, or are they just story developers?

[roach04]

If I was reading this, I could comment more intelligently - but since I'm not, all I can say is - no Shooter at Marvel, means no editorial continuity at Marvel!;)

[pmpknface]

I'm not gonna see that Preview, but I will come back here Monday after I read this and see how it pairs up w/ CW 6.

[Your Imaginary Pal]

It's like Marvel editorial enjoys making us suffer?


Editorial Staff # 1:
Do you see how the fans squirm helplessly as we through continuity to the winds.

Editorial Staff # 2:
I don't know boss, they seem to be getting very upset and on the brink of leaving us forever.

Editorial Stadd # 1:
You have much to learn my apprentice. They have been made witness to some of the worst decisions and comicdom. It's almost as though they enjoy seeing the characters the care about suffer from mischaracterization and stories that are supposed to compliment eachother completely contradict eachother.

Editorial Staff # 2:
But we have the pages here that will make the story be a little more logical chronologically.

Editorial Staff # 1:
That's cute boy, you think we still care. No matter how far away we go from the mark, these fans will follow and continue to line our pockets and fund my precious death ray. Bwah ha ha ha ha ha!!!!

[goman]

I read it last, night, and it actually matches up pretty close with Civil War #6. The non-fight goes down pretty much the same. I thought the issue was decent. I'm enjoying Oliverti's art. I like the painted quality of it. There's a really cool throw down with the Rhino in this issue. It just felt a little, I don't know, light. There wasn't that much to it. I only read a few books last night, and it was pretty much the weakest. I saved the good stuff, Fables, Criminal, and Legion of Superheores for tonight.

[torippu]

I read it last, night, and it actually matches up pretty close with Civil War #6. The non-fight goes down pretty much the same.

I'd have to agree that the issue really didn't contradict CW #6 so it was an OK read. I had trouble following what exactly was going on with Stuart Clarke & Bridge. Why was Bridge all beat up at the end of the issue?

Olivetti's version of the Rhino was pretty cool. It was a bit disappointing that the Rhino beat Spidey within an inch of his life over in Sensational Spider-Man recently and then the Punisher took him out over the course of 2 pages. What's up with that? Are there two different Rhinos running around the Marvel U? In SSM, Black Cat referred to him by name as a Russian dude (Alexsiev Smetssiev or something like that) and then the Punisher referred to him as Alex O'Hirn. Is the Rhino Irish or Russian?

Trip

[goman]

I'd have to agree that the issue really didn't contradict CW #6 so it was an OK read. I had trouble following what exactly was going on with Stuart Clarke & Bridge. Why was Bridge all beat up at the end of the issue?

Olivetti's version of the Rhino was pretty cool. It was a bit disappointing that the Rhino beat Spidey within an inch of his life over in Sensational Spider-Man recently and then the Punisher took him out over the course of 2 pages. What's up with that? Are there two different Rhinos running around the Marvel U? In SSM, Black Cat referred to him by name as a Russian dude (Alexsiev Smetssiev or something like that) and then the Punisher referred to him as Alex O'Hirn. Is the Rhino Irish or Russian?

Trip

According to the fountain of all knowledge, wikipedia, the Rhino's real name is Aleksei Sytsevich, but it lists Alex O'Hirn as an alias, so I guess they're the same guy. I didn't have a problem with how the Punisher took him out, just because of the way they did it, and to be fair, it didn't kill him, it just did some damage to his suit, so it shows how tough the weapon was, but also how tough the Rhino is. That last page with Bridge totally threw me off, though. I still have no idea what the point of that was.

[torippu]

According to the fountain of all knowledge, wikipedia, the Rhino's real name is Aleksei Sytsevich, but it lists Alex O'Hirn as an alias, so I guess they're the same guy. I didn't have a problem with how the Punisher took him out, just because of the way they did it, and to be fair, it didn't kill him, it just did some damage to his suit, so it shows how tough the weapon was, but also how tough the Rhino is. That last page with Bridge totally threw me off, though. I still have no idea what the point of that was.

Thanks - I guess I could have checked Wikipedia myself before posting.

I was a little confused with the stuff with Stuart Clarke as well. I thought that he and the Punisher had met/talked to each other in the previous couple of issues, but then he acted like Frank Castle didn't know him after getting beat up by Captain America.

[Lurch]

Was that supposed to be Cap encountering a young Frank Castle? If so, wasn't Cap on ice during the Vietnam conflict?

[goman]

I pretty sure the point was that it wasn't Cap, at least that's what I hope. Mostly because I could never picture Steve Rogers using the phrase "Charlie." Plus the complete continuity change that would require for him to be in Vietnam. I wonder how long the Punisher can stay a Vietnam vet? He'd be getting pretty old, even if he was 18 right when the war ended.

[pmpknface]

This is another good reason NOT to look at previews if you're getting the book anyhow. I didn't see any major issues with how these 2 book tied together. One just had more scenes in it.

The think about the Rhino and his names drove me nuts though! Ugh... I don't understand everyone's facination to use the SAME VILLIAN in 12 books at once. He was just in Heroes for Hire #1 and I think another book that I'll remember in a minute.

FYI - The "Satan's Claw" that Frank used is a classic MU weapon that goes back to Steranko's run on the Nick Fury stories in Strange Tales. If I were to question anything in the PWJ story it'd be the, "I just happened to find this SHIELD bunker stocked with weapons that everyone forgot about" line.

On Cap - techniclly, he awoke in Avengers #4 which was in the 60's and before Vietnam. Marvel generally runs on a "sliding 10-year scale" but everything gets fuzzy when it needs to. Punisher is forever tied to Vietnam and actually is older than most of the heroes floating around.

And I really do think that was Cap. That was the whole point of the then & now sequences. Don't be upset by the use of him saying "Charlie" either. It's no different that him saying "ratzi" or "Japs" in all of the WW2 comics. It's a product of the time and especially during the times of war.

[goman]

I'm not upset about Cap saying "Charlie", it just didn't sound right to me. But you have a point about his 40's war speak, so there would be precedent. The whole characterization of Vietnam Cap just seemed to be saying that it wasn't Classic Cap, I thought there was a line at the end where Frank said that it was just a different guy in the suit. Something like that, I don't have the issue in front of me.

[pmpknface]

I know what you're referring to. It was like Frank didn't think that there was a "real" Cap, but just different guys in the same suit. Cap's neither identity or history was public back then.

[Citizen V]

Im convinced that Marvel`s writers and editors[mainly Joe Q] do not communicate good or often.Its a huge ego trip,that nearly every writer wants to be the next Stan Lee and will rip appart the Marvel Universe to do it.

[pmpknface]

Im convinced that Marvel`s writers and editors[mainly Joe Q] do not communicate good or often.Its a huge ego trip,that nearly every writer wants to be the next Stan Lee and will rip appart the Marvel Universe to do it.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.........

They never talk at all and just make $hit up as they go. And it certainly isn't a product of agreeing on a story and then having to create it from 8 different angles at the same time.

And Joe just sits in his bathroom and watches TV too.

[DoctorDoom]

Hrmmm... thanks for bringing this to my attention.

[De Carabas]

Not having read the PWJ issue, I have a question: is the Vietnam flashback being told from Frank's POV? If so, then I have a solution.

There have been several different men to use the Captain America name and cosutme while Steve was MIA/on ice. Not only is this NOT something that is public knowledge, but I'm almost certain it was explicitly stated as classified military intel in Brubaker's Cap #4. (That same issue also confirmed that Cap was frozen during Vietnam.) So Frank probably thinks it was the "real" Cap. That would also explain any inconsistencies in character voice.

If the flashback is told from a third-person omniscient POV or if Steve is sharing the remembrance, then I have no answer. Or at least no comic book/continuity answer.

EM