Why are non-American supers so damn pathetic?

[AllisterH]

Ok, I got a question after reading the last GL issue.

Why the hell are the DC universe non-American metas so damn pathetic? Not just the heroes but the villains as well.

I'm not taling metas like Savage who existed long before modern nation states.

Magento, Doom, Graviton, the Presence and others are all non-American but major players in the MU. 3 of the above actually are from "real" world countries.

Then you things like Alpha Flight, the New X-men and Excalibur both of which showed that if say the Avengers weren't around, marvel Earth still has teams that can stand up to any threat.

Hell, the Avengers themselves have many non-America supers but compare this to Justice League International.

If say, for example, all of the American heroes in the MU disappear, Marvel can probably still easily fight off Galactus IMO whereas in DCU, you get rid of the American heroes, I'd be surprised if Joker by himself wouldn't bend them over.

Why is this?

[Aaron King]

The Black Adam Family is awesome. The Great Ten are new but cool. Neither are pathetic.

[Ontir]

Well, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, the Martian Manhunter, and technically, Superman and the current Flash are non-Americans.

Same for Kilowog, and he's friggin' cool!

There are a number of throw-away foreign heroes - Marvel has 'em too - who were never given a great deal of thought, to begin with, and so end up being sort of one-note, basic cultural references in a cape and cowl.

[Sijo]

DC has some cool international heroes- they just never develop them well, the way Marvel has. I always thought Global Guardians would make a great series. But we'll probably have to wait until the "it's easier to kill off characters than develop them" mentality DC currently has before they're given a true chance. The Black Marvels are doomed to failure, for example. Just watch.

[AllisterH]

The Black Adam Family is awesome. The Great Ten are new but cool. Neither are pathetic.

I'll give you the Black Adam family and they can, if Adam is anything to inidicate, can hold their own against most American supers.

However, the Great Ten have done nothing to justify their coolness. Love their names but in 52, they were shown as ineffective due to "the paperwork".

Take the proposed "World War III" as the blockbuster for DC this year. Um, exactly which team of non-american supers can stand up to even the freaking Freedom fighters, to say nothing of either the Titans, or heaven forbid, the JSA or the JLA?

So how the hell does DC expect to have a world war?

The Rocket Reds, please. Their outdated battlesutis are pathetic (Hell, the Crimson Dynamo from Marvel has be shown to be more powerful than any RR).

The Great Ten? They got pwned by just two GLs. TWO!!!. Yet you expect them to fight off the JSA?

In marvel, if say we had a Team USA vs Rest of the World, I wouldn't bet on Team America. Way too many non-america heroes who are freaking powerful.
In DC? What's the best the non-American "real world" countries have to offer (thus discounting places like Khandaq, Atlantis and Themsyirca)?

[AllisterH]

Well, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, the Martian Manhunter, and technically, Superman and the current Flash are non-Americans.

Same for Kilowog, and he's friggin' cool!

.

WW - Non-American but who is identified with America thanks to her connection pre and post-Crisis?

Aquaman - I'll give you but then again, there's no Atlantis in our world. At least Marvel Canada has enough resources to field ENTIRE football teams of supers.

MM and Superman - I consider American (especially Superman) who neither would I consider as heroes for the "rest of the World".

This is like arguing that since Martian Manhunter is green, the Silver Age Satellite era Justice League wasn't "white-only" crowd.

Sure, marvel has throwaway foreign heroes, but let's see, does DC have anyone on the status of Magento, Storm, Wolverine, Black Widow, Graviton, the Presence?

The most famous non-american meta from a real-world country in the DCU is Captain Boomerang and Fire. BOOMERBUTT is the best DC can do?

[Gozwald73]

Tasmanian Devil - Australian
Dr Light II - Japanese
Green Arow II - grew up in the Himalayas
Ice - Norwegian

all of the above are cool

besides, I can think of PLENTY of American heroes that are lame-o - so I don't hold any validity to your thread title

[Magneto_X]

Because the primary market for super-heroes are America.

[Bat-Mite]

and the current Flash are non-Americans.

Wasn't Bart born in America, but in the future? Or was he born in the 30th century Haiti or something and nobody told me?

[Bat-Mite]

Wonder Woman may like America, but she is Greek.

I don't know exactly what kind of ruler we are using the measure whatever the heck we are measuring here. Power? recognizability?

Anyway, major international DC characters...

Ra's Al Ghul - From God knows where, The Middle East.

Circe - Greek.

Somebody already mentioned Black Adam.

Sonar - He lives in some made up country.

Janissary - Turkey (The less said about the rest of the Planet DC annual guys, the better)

Every Nazi villain from Germany - Captain Nazi, the Ultrahumanite, the rest.

Canada has the Force Family: A long dynasty of humans who for whatever reason had a tendency to fall into radioactive vats, or get bitten by aliens and get powers.

Also all the Ultra-Marines from JLA.

Aquaman - I'll give you but then again, there's no Atlantis in our world.

There is no Latveria, but you mentioned Doom.

So how the hell does DC expect to have a world war?


Every country in the DCU has metas. Not only that, but even third world hell holes have secret projects to either kill metas, or manufacture them. As seen in several issues, including JLA Classified: The Hypothetical Woman.

[Bat-Mite]

I just remembered more

Dr. Light II from Japan. Japan will also have in 52 the Most Excellent Super-Bat, and with a name like that he just can't suck.

Mirror Master from Scotland.

Lady Whiva Wu San and Cassie Kane from China.

Scandal Savage from Brazil (also the home of Fire)

[Sir Tim Drake]

Almost the entire membership of the Legion of Super-Heroes is non-American, if "American" even means anything in the 30th/31st century.

[Ontir]

Sure, marvel has throwaway foreign heroes, but let's see, does DC have anyone on the status of Magento, Storm, Wolverine, Black Widow, Graviton, the Presence?

Raven

The entire Legion of Super-Heroes, a number of whom are from Earth.

Despite her costume, Wonder Woman is the Crown Princess of a foreign nation, who grew up in that nation, and is very much NOT an American (more so even than Aquaman) - she still counts! As she's one of the 3 major super-heroes, that puts her a notch above Magneto, et al.

As Gozwald73 pointed out, the 2nd Dr. Light is pretty damn good.

There's also Fire who, IIRC, is from Brazil.

Hawkman is an ancient Egyptian Prince, reincarnated in an alien body, while Hawkgirl is an ancient Egyptian, reincarnated in an American body, so you've got to at least count him, and her as a half.

Ràs al Guhl and his daughter Talia are major league, heavy hitters, not to mention his henchman, Bork.

There's the old Batman villain, the Monk, who is a European vampire.

The greatest Wonder Woman villain ever - Baroness Paula von Gunther.

Terra & her brother Geo Force.

Red Star, formerly Starfire.

Rocket Red

Elite's Manchester Black.

The Marvel Family villain, Captain Nazi, who despite his antiquated name, is still a tough customer.

I-Ching

Adam Tet

Aqualad/Tempest

Donna Troy/Wonder Girl/Troia/Darkstar is, at the very least, international.

...and BTW, "Atlantis" was almost certainly poetic license (a bastardisation of the word "atalantis," which means "catastrophe"), taken by Plato, when recounting a tale that Solon brought to Greece from Egypt, about the destruction of their trading partners, the Kepchu, who were better known to the Greeks, as the Minnoans. They were wiped out when the central part of the island Thera exploded in a way that made Krakatau look like a cherry bomb, and the subsequent tsunamis scoured almost all traces of their civilisation off the remaining part of their homeland, the island we now call Crete. The Egyptian records of this civilisation, show the concentric circles, later described by Plato, and from the excavations of the Palace Knossos, we know that they had indoor plumbing, which ran to the 3rd floor, which included hot and cold running water, and toilets. "Atlantis" was real.

[Apathy Boy]

I believe Marvel has made more efforts to publish comics overseas, which may partly account for their more prominent foreign (to us) supers. Marvel UK has been operating for several years, and I think Marvel may also have set something up in France. I don't think DC has tried anything similar.

I do think it's a bit disingenuous to claim the likes of Magneto and Graviton as foreigners, though. They may have been born elsewhere, but most of their adventures seem to take place in the States or in space. Hell, I didn't even realize Graviton was non-American. If you count them, you have to count Wonder Woman.

And hey, don't forget that DC's Britain has John Constantine. That's one guy you don't want to be calling pathetic.

(A tangent: I've lived in Canada my entire life, and I still don't know what an "Alpha Flight" is. I mean, I know they're a team of horribly stereotypical charicatures, but what does the phrase mean?)

[Green Lantern wannabe]

I believe we hit on something ...

Aquaman, Wonder Woman, and the Martian Manhunter are not Americans, but they have identities in the US. Why? Because they can get better paying jobs and more lucrative movie offers. Taxes are also lower than elsewhere. :D

[Apathy Boy]

I believe we hit on something ...

Aquaman, Wonder Woman, and the Martian Manhunter are not Americans, but they have identities in the US. Why? Because they can get better paying jobs and more lucrative movie offers. Taxes are also lower than elsewhere. :DThe Martian Manhunter has identities everywhere.

[the4thpip]

Wonder Woman may like America, but she is Greek.



While they're shown to have the same gods as the ancient Greeks, Amazons themselves are actually not. In the comics, Themyscira is its own nation, while the historical Amazons lived close to what is today Iran.

Oh, and I do believe that the Ultra-Humanite was an American who collaborated with the Nazis, not a German.

[dancj]

Japan will also have in 52 the Most Excellent Super-Bat, and with a name like that he just can't suck.

I smell Morrison at work behind that character

[AllisterH]

Wonder Woman may like America, but she is Greek.

I don't know exactly what kind of ruler we are using the measure whatever the heck we are measuring here. Power? recognizability?

Anyway, major international DC characters...

Ra's Al Ghul - From God knows where, The Middle East.

Circe - Greek.

Somebody already mentioned Black Adam.

Sonar - He lives in some made up country.

Janissary - Turkey (The less said about the rest of the Planet DC annual guys, the better)

Every Nazi villain from Germany - Captain Nazi, the Ultrahumanite, the rest.

Canada has the Force Family: A long dynasty of humans who for whatever reason had a tendency to fall into radioactive vats, or get bitten by aliens and get powers.

Also all the Ultra-Marines from JLA.



There is no Latveria, but you mentioned Doom.



Every country in the DCU has metas. Not only that, but even third world hell holes have secret projects to either kill metas, or manufacture them. As seen in several issues, including JLA Classified: The Hypothetical Woman.

I'm measuring both power AND recognizability. Wolverine, for example, is not really that powerful (seriously, he's a guy with a healing factor and claws. He's barely above street level) and he's recognized by not just marvel fans, but even DC fans whereas Graviton is FREAKING powerful but unless you're a marvel universe fan (avengers/thunderbolts to be precise) you wouldn't know him. The difference between say, Graviton and Janissary is that Graviton shows up at least once every couple of years and has storylines involving him whereas when was the last speaking role/non-cameo role for Janissary or Sonar for that matter?

John Constantine is a good character but he's pretty much a vertigo character-only and you won't see him show up in non-vertigo books. In fact, has Constantine ever shown up in a non-Vertigo book other than say Zatanna?

Ra's Al Ghul, Savage and the other DC immortals all existed before the modern nation states. Marvel has this in abundance as well, Apocalypse, Selene, Red Sonja and Conan.

Er, the Ultra-Marines are all American originally AND frankly, this highlights the problem (a.k.a the ineptness of non-American heroes..The fall of Superbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultramarine_Corps). Sure, Alpha Flight got mulched recently but even long-time Avenger fans will admit, if tje Collective could've done that to the Flight if would have mulched everyone in the new Avengers not named Sentry (Iron Man, MIGHT'VE survived). Generally speaking though, if say the fate of marvel Earth depended on the non-American, non-Alien heroes, marvel Earth is in good hands. Hell, they should be able to fight off even Galactus or Doom. With DC though? The white martians pulp them, hell even those losers aliens liked the Khunds would dominate.

The Legion of Superheroes - Actually, this is a horrendous example. While there is no American on the LosH, there isn't any non-American from Earth either. Beside, which of the LoSH members from Earth didn't originate from around Metropolis? Frankly, this is like saying that the since martian manhunter is green, the satellite JLA wasn't an all-white club. :rolleyes:

The Force Family - Right and the last time we heard from them was when again? You seriously are trying to show that DC is not American-centric with the Force family and Plastique? Why can Marvel produce Alpha Flight, the Weapon X program, Wolverine, the Wendigo and Graviton (all characters that have appeared at least once in the last 5 years with actual more than 1-issue "get my ass kicked" appearances?).

Per Degaton and Captain Nazi are germans, but Ultra-humanite is American. Personally, I hope not ALL the nazis currently appearing the JSA are from germany as frankly, if I was german, I would be getting kind of pissed off that the JSA constantly is throwing germany's shameful past up front. What? the JSA can't fight the Klan?

Personally, I don't consider aliens, imaginary places or extra-dimensional origins a plus for the non-American side. Can I take my globe on my desk and point to a place on the map and say, "Raven/Wonder Woman comes from here? Nope, then while she's non-american, she's not exactly terran"

[General Grievous]

The Black Adam Family is awesome. The Great Ten are new but cool. Neither are pathetic.

I second this, Black adam is a Great character

[carabas]

John Constantine is a good character but he's pretty much a vertigo character-only and you won't see him show up in non-vertigo books. In fact, has Constantine ever shown up in a non-Vertigo book other than say Zatanna?
Swamp Thing, back before there eve nwas a Vertigo. Also, he was in an obscure little mini series called Crisis On Infinite Earths.

Marvel has this in abundance as well, Apocalypse, Selene, Red Sonja and Conan.
Marvel most definitely does not have Conan or any related charactersnany more than that they have Darth Vader or Optimus Prime.

[Bat-Mite]

I'm measuring both power AND recognizability.

Recognizability by whom? The readers? Then Graviton doesn't count.

when was the last speaking role/non-cameo role for Janissary or Sonar for that matter?

Sonar is one of Green Lantern's main villains. He probably shows up more often than Graviton for that matter.

In fact, has Constantine ever shown up in a non-Vertigo book other than say Zatanna?

Crisis on Infinite Earths and Hitman.

Ra's Al Ghul, Savage and the other DC immortals all existed before the modern nation states.

Ra's is only 700 years old. Most countries in the old world were already around back then.

Er, the Ultra-Marines are all American originally

But the rest are not.

Generally speaking though, if say the fate of marvel Earth depended on the non-American, non-Alien heroes, marvel Earth is in good hands. Hell, they should be able to fight off even Galactus or Doom. With DC though? The white martians pulp them, hell even those losers aliens liked the Khunds would dominate.

You have no basis for saying this, other than a badly formed opinion based on a lack of information about international DCU heroes and a bias for Marvel. Heck, John Constantine alone has saved Earth several times before breakfast, and his breakfast was just cigarettes.

And the Ultra-Marines had their butt kicked by the Sheeda, who can beat anyone just as long as they don't bring seven members, so it's hardly their fault.

The Force Family - Right and the last time we heard from them was when again?

Who cares. They exist in the DCU. Maybe you should figure out what you are asking for before asking it. So... is it power? When we mention someone powerful you say he is not recognized. When we mention someone recognizable, you say he is not powerful or that he hasn't appeared in a while. Maybe you should take some time and figure what you actually want.

Personally, I hope not ALL the nazis currently appearing the JSA are from germany as frankly, if I was german, I would be getting kind of pissed off that the JSA constantly is throwing germany's shameful past up front.

Maybe they should have thought of that before starting World War 2 and killing a million Jews. Just a thought.

Personally, I don't consider aliens, imaginary places or extra-dimensional origins a plus for the non-American side. Can I take my globe on my desk and point to a place on the map and say, "Raven/Wonder Woman comes from here?

Themyscera doesn't exist in the real world, but for all practically purposes it is an island somewhere in Greece with classic Greek culture in the DCU. To say Wonder Woman doesn't count cause you can't find it in a map, would be like saying Batman is not American cause, if you haven't noticed yet, Gotham City is not on any maps either.

[Joe Rice]

It's because America rules and the world drools, get used to it!!!!

[AllisterH]

Marvel most definitely does not have Conan or any related charactersnany more than that they have Darth Vader or Optimus Prime.

Actually, that isn't true. Red Sonja, while inspired by a REH story, was pretty much defined and expanded upon by marvel. In the same vein, while marvel can't lay claim to Conan, Marvel has a decent claim of providing a significant history to Conan. Beside, while marvel can't actually use the names, they are still considered to be "historical marvel figures".

[trickster]

Well, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, the Martian Manhunter, and technically, Superman and the current Flash are non-Americans.

Same for Kilowog, and he's friggin' cool!

There are a number of throw-away foreign heroes - Marvel has 'em too - who were never given a great deal of thought, to begin with, and so end up being sort of one-note, basic cultural references in a cape and cowl.

Technically, they were still (I say were cos I dunno if MM will still be in Meltzer's league) members of the JLA, where the A stands for America :p. And they operated out of America.

[Sir Tim Drake]

The Legion of Superheroes - Actually, this is a horrendous example. While there is no American on the LosH, there isn't any non-American from Earth either. Beside, which of the LoSH members from Earth didn't originate from around Metropolis?

This is completely wrong. Just to take one example, Invisible Kid II and Computo were from the Ivory Coast.

Frankly, this is like saying that the since martian manhunter is green, the satellite JLA wasn't an all-white club. :rolleyes:

This claim is even more wrong than the previous one, but it would take too long to explain why.

[Shellhead]

Personally, I hope not ALL the nazis currently appearing the JSA are from germany as frankly, if I was german, I would be getting kind of pissed off that the JSA constantly is throwing germany's shameful past up front. What? the JSA can't fight the Klan?


White Dragon (villain that Hawkman was battling at the end of Justice Society of America #2) is not from Germany, he's an American white supremacist. When he first appeared in the pages of Hawkworld, he was posing as a superhero, who just happened to only fight minority criminals. In fact, he denounced neo-nazis during a television interview while he was trying to protect his public image.

[FanboyStranger]

John Constantine is a good character but he's pretty much a vertigo character-only and you won't see him show up in non-vertigo books. In fact, has Constantine ever shown up in a non-Vertigo book other than say Zatanna?



He showed up in Ostrander's Spectre, but was too down and out to help the Phantom Stranger against Eclipso. Other that that, a few odd mentions in Hitman concerning the Ace of Winchesters, and a couple of non-speaking cameos in events like Underworld Unleashed.

The current policy as I understand it is that mature characters are not to appear in all-ages books in order to prevent children from seeking out more of the character's appearances. This has been Levitz' stand since the Gordon Lee trial. (Which has resulted in the new Deadman series featuring a new character altogether.)

[FanboyStranger]

John Constantine is a good character but he's pretty much a vertigo character-only and you won't see him show up in non-vertigo books. In fact, has Constantine ever shown up in a non-Vertigo book other than say Zatanna?



He showed up in Ostrander's Spectre, but was too down and out to help the Phantom Stranger against Eclipso. Other that that, a few odd mentions in Hitman concerning the Ace of Winchesters, and a couple of non-speaking cameos in events like Underworld Unleashed.

The current policy as I understand it is that mature characters are not to appear in all-ages books in order to prevent children from seeking out more of the character's appearances. This has been Levitz' stand since the Gordon Lee trial. (Which has resulted in the new Deadman series featuring a new character altogether.)

[Doc Midnight]

AllisterH, I hate to say it but your argument is full of holes. You can't say Marvel has cool non-American characters like Magneto, Dr. Doom, Wolverine and Graviton when At their inception they were neither cool NOR all that foreign.

Magneto doesn't carry an identity that says foreign. He carries an identity that say "Terrorist". If not for a few bits of retconning and Ian McKellans's accent, he'd still be thought of as American. Wolverine is mentioned as being Canadian but that didn't make him famous. His attitude in the face of authority did that. While it's mentioned that he's Canadian, he never mentions any though processes that involve his country of origin. Graviton may be powerful but everyone who fights the Thunderbolts is propped up to be the second coming of Proteus. He's just not important at all.

For every Dr. Doom, I'd be willing to bet there there are 3 Le Peregines or 3 Shamrocks. When Marvel has to give us a foreign super guy they have for the longest time resorted to the sorts of stereotypes that have crippled characters. Sure you got the German Nightcrawler but you sure as hell got the one dimensional Sunfire (Rising Sun motif of course) and Arabian Knight (with turban and carpet) to go along with it.

DC has done the same thing. Many of their none American characters are not that developed but don't compare it to the JLI, which was made up mostly of Americans.

Neither company os going to invest HUGE resources in developing characters whose purpose is to express their non American nationality and power. American audiences don't care. Sure, Dr. Light and Alpha Flight show up from time to time but they go away too. Have you noticed that there are Americans in the new and improved Omega Flight? New Excalibur? It's got Americans too.

It does seem like you have a Marvel Bias, which I guess is fine but you could hide it better by not mentioning properties Marvel doesn't even own.

At any rate I'd sat Black Adam (and family), Red Star, Wonder Woman, Geoforce, Dr. Light, The Rocket Reds, Crimson Fox, Aqauaman, Mirror Master, Manchester Black (and sister), the Great Ten, Green Arrow (Connor Hawk) Shiva and Shado, Circe, and Ra's Al Ghul would do a hell of a job defending the Planet of their Birth even if the Big 3 or the rest of the JLA weren't around. All of these characters have had significant stories in the past 15 years.

I'm willing to bet that an "Excalibur" style book involving those character would actually sell as long as it wasn't all "Anti American" Super team. Do it like Checkmate and it's a great book.

[Rio_de_Janeiro]

It's because America rules and the world drools, get used to it!!!!


otherwise, this would be a very nasty comment which could be rebuked by the following :

If america rules, then it's doing a goddam-awful job about it.

[Doc Midnight]

otherwise, this would be a very nasty comment which could be rebuked by the following :

If america rules, then it's doing a goddam-awful job about it.

Well he didn't say. "America is AWESOME at Ruling!!!" or something. That would have to be considered flat out false :)

[carabas]

Actually, that isn't true. Red Sonja, while inspired by a REH story,
Considering that Howard's Red Sonya was a 16th century russian gungslinger who had nothing to do with Conan or his world, inspiration might not be the right word here.

while marvel can't lay claim to Conan, Marvel has a decent claim of providing a significant history to Conan. Beside, while marvel can't actually use the names, they are still considered to be "historical marvel figures".
They can use their original creations for the Marvel Conan books as much as they want, and continue to do so.
But that is not what you originally said.
Ra's Al Ghul, Savage and the other DC immortals all existed before the modern nation states. Marvel has this in abundance as well, Apocalypse, Selene, Red Sonja and Conan.
Marvel tries to use either Conan or even Red Sonja, Nightmare of Lawyers, in a dr. Strange time travel story, they're going to have some legal troubles.

[Bat-Mite]

Magneto doesn't carry an identity that says foreign.

But he is foreign. He is European. Mind you, I have absolutely no clue where the hell he was born, and considering he is Jewish one day, and Gypsy the next, probably he doesn't know it himself since he can't even keep track of his race.

Neither company os going to invest HUGE resources

Oh darn, it's just paper and ink.

American audiences don't care.

I find American isolationism kinda sad, though.

[hitokiri_]

Well, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, the Martian Manhunter, and technically, Superman and the current Flash are non-Americans.

Same for Kilowog, and he's friggin' cool!

There are a number of throw-away foreign heroes - Marvel has 'em too - who were never given a great deal of thought, to begin with, and so end up being sort of one-note, basic cultural references in a cape and cowl.

current flash? he's just time displaced but american nonetheless.

[hitokiri_]

It's because America rules and the world drools, get used to it!!!!

heh. american fanboy.

[niall mc cann]

MM and Superman - I consider American (especially Superman) who neither would I consider as heroes for the "rest of the World".

I wouldn't argue that Superman's not american - he has a kryptonian heritage that's very important to him, but he's deeply and passionately committed to america, and i think considers himself american as much (i not more) than he considers himself kryptonian, but MM?

No, i wouldn't really consider him particularly american.

[Grazzt]

(A tangent: I've lived in Canada my entire life, and I still don't know what an "Alpha Flight" is. I mean, I know they're a team of horribly stereotypical charicatures, but what does the phrase mean?)

Well, a "flight" usually denotes a flying military unit. Since most superheroes can fly, calling a superhero team a "Flight" makes some sense (in the same way as some superhero teams take "Brigade" or "Patrol" in their names). And sense they're the most powerful super-powered group that Canada can offer, denoting them as Alpha also makes sense. For instance, the less powerful heroes were put into something called Beta Flight, although some of them were eventually promoted. Although, I guess it sucks to be Omega Flight by that reasoning.

[Doc Midnight]

But he is foreign. He is European. Mind you, I have absolutely no clue where the hell he was born, and considering he is Jewish one day, and Gypsy the next, probably he doesn't know it himself since he can't even keep track of his race.



Oh darn, it's just paper and ink.



I find American isolationism kinda sad, though.


I think Claremont gave Magneto specific ethnicity later in the X-Men (around issue 200 IIRC).

When I talk about company investitures, I'm talking not just about paper and ink but also about projected readership. They can gauge how many readers will pick up a new and untried concept and they can gauge how many will pick up a new attempt at an old concept. Many times they try it but sometimes it's just not worth it.

Americans aren't apathetic per se but part of why we buy comics has to do with our ability to relate to the characters inside. I may love Hellblazer but I recognize that many comics fans just don't get London as a character. They don't want to read about London. They do get Metropolis as a character or Gotham as a character but not London because it's not one of ours or even patterened after it.

They don't like having to translate why things matter to british characters. If you want us to read Union Jack ten he'd better shoot a lot of stuff. Violence we get. Subtle Euro Nuance we don't and since we pretty much are DC and Marvel comics, we really don't have to.

[Citizen V]

Its actually a matter of common sence,most heros are from the USA..because most readers are from the USA.To some,they do not want to hear stories about people or places they can not understand or identify with.

[DDM]

(A tangent: I've lived in Canada my entire life, and I still don't know what an "Alpha Flight" is. I mean, I know they're a team of horribly stereotypical charicatures, but what does the phrase mean?)

I think Alpha Flight is symbolic for Marvel's first Canadian super-hero group. Alpha, being the first letter in the Greek alphabet, is first; therefore, Alpha Flight is the first flight. Beta Flight & Gamma Flight are training teams to had been eventually recruited into Alpha Flight had the Canadian government stopped the funding of the program.

Omega Flight was meant to be the polar opposite of Alpha Flight: A villain Canadian-based team who sought the end of Alpha Flight; therefore, they named themselves Omega Flight to end Alpha Flight.

[DDM]

I think Claremont gave Magneto specific ethnicity later in the X-Men (around issue 200 IIRC).



Actually the first inkling came with Uncanny X-Men #149-150 (when Magneto thought he electrocuted Kitty Pryde), but Magnus, as a Holocaust survivor, came up in Uncanny X-Men #161 (a flashabck story of Xavier & Magneto fighting Baron Von Strucker & helping Gabrielle Haller come out of her catatonic state). From this point onward, Chris Claremont developed Magneto's Holocaust background in Uncanny X-Men & The New Mutants #35-54.

[Bat-Mite]

About the name Alpha flight, I was reading the early Wolverine in X-Men issues, around the time Len Wein was still writing it and Claremont was just on dialogue (which to my mind it is like hiring Liefield to draw feet, but whatever) and he mentions something about project Alpha back in Canada. So I guess Alpha Flight is a reference to this. Also, I don't know why the group name has to have anything to do with Canada. It's not like JLA has much to do with A other than the A.

[Bat-Mite]

Just out of curiosity. What's the current official stand with Magneto? Jewish or Gypsy? Also, where was he born in the first place?

[dupersuper]

John Constantine is a good character but he's pretty much a vertigo character-only and you won't see him show up in non-vertigo books. In fact, has Constantine ever shown up in a non-Vertigo book other than say Zatanna?



In addition to the other answers to this question, he was also in the Millenium Giants issue of Challengers of the Unknown, Hal Jordans' funeral, Gaimans Books of Magic mini...

[Bat-Mite]

I also think John Constantine shows up in the Stanley nd his Monster early 90s miniseries, along with Lucifer Morningstar. JC does sure pops up in the weirdest places.

[Ontir]

Superman and the current Flash (who is from the United Planets, not America) are actually illegal aliens, as is the Martian Manhunter. If not for their diplomatic standing, Wonder Woman and Aquaman would be int he same boat.

John Constantine began in Swamp Thing. He has, and can appear in any DC comic, at any time. I think, in general, this is just turning out to be a DC-bashing thread, though, so I'm going to stop with this post.

Magneto, according to what Claremont and Byrne had put together between X-Men and Avengers, was that he is Jewish. He and Magda were at home, in their village, when the Nazis came in. They roughed up at least, and more likely killed their daughter Anya, which led to Erik reacting violently, and magnetically. The pregnant Anya was so scared of him, and what he was capable of, that she fled into the night, and eventually found her way to Wundagore, and the High Evolutionary. With the assistance of Bova, his enhanced cow, handmaid, she gave birth to Wanda and Pietro. She then wandered off into a storm, and has never been heard from again. It was then, that the twins were then given to the Maximoffs, a wandering gypsy couple. Then, during World War II, presumably, they were given to the Whizzer and his wife, who adopted them, giving them the last name "Frank."

[Doc Midnight]

Actually the first inkling came with Uncanny X-Men #149-150 (when Magneto thought he electrocuted Kitty Pryde), but Magnus, as a Holocaust survivor, came up in Uncanny X-Men #161 (a flashabck story of Xavier & Magneto fighting Baron Von Strucker & helping Gabrielle Haller come out of her catatonic state). From this point onward, Chris Claremont developed Magneto's Holocaust background in Uncanny X-Men & The New Mutants #35-54.

YES!!! I know it was around then but I couldn't remember which. My memory is way fuzzy on the comics I read in High School sometimes. Thanks!

[AllisterH]

Considering that Howard's Red Sonya was a 16th century russian gungslinger who had nothing to do with Conan or his world, inspiration might not be the right word here.

.

I know that but this _IS_ why Marvel doesn't have the rights to Red Sonja. Sure, Red Sonja has pretty much nothing in common with Red Sonya and creatively, Red Sonja should be considered a marvel creation but since Marvel admitted that Red Sonja is based on Red Sonya's name and look (I don't even think their personalities are the same) they can't claim her (I always wonder if this is why Marvel nowadays doesn't do licensed material...)

The claim was that Savage and other Immortals are non-Americans and my point is that Marvel has this in abundance as well so in comparison, I don't see the big deal.

re: John Constantine
I admit my shock. I knew Constantine appeared in Books of Magic (I thought that was Vertigo?) and in Zatanna's "Everyday Magic" IIRC, but I didn't realize he was the Waldo of the DC universe. That's cool.

Look, if Marvel can create at least two non-American super-hero teams and most countries in Marvel can actually field their own team (Both China, Russia and Japan) why doesn't DC try?

Its not even a marvel bias but a Non-American/Canadian bias personally. I just want to see non-American heroes be treated with at least some respect. As weird as it sounds, I find it hard to believe that countries like China and Russia are happy that an organization called the Justice League of America is all they have. ITs like in that next thread about WW. How the hell does a superhero wearing the American Flag act as a supposedly "neutral" ambassador :mad:

Why is it impossible to even get a mini-series about non-American superteam? Even freaking Big Hero Six (Japan's super team in marvel) has gotten a miniseries.

Take the Ultra-marines for example. You honestly want to say that they were effective? Please state one storyline where either the Global guardians or the Ultra Marines actually were effective in the last 10 years? They basically exist to be the cannon fodder for the "real" superteams (which are all American team).

How about the latest GL where again, an entire squadron of Rocket Reds aren't considered a decent challenge for 1 GL much less the entire JLA. You don't think there's not going to be resentment.

[Bat-Mite]

He and Magda were at home, in their village, when the Nazis came in.

Can you tell me where this village was located?

[DDM]

Magneto, according to what Claremont and Byrne had put together between X-Men and Avengers, was that he is Jewish. He and Magda were at home, in their village, when the Nazis came in. They roughed up at least, and more likely killed their daughter Anya, which led to Erik reacting violently, and magnetically. The pregnant Anya was so scared of him, and what he was capable of, that she fled into the night, and eventually found her way to Wundagore, and the High Evolutionary. With the assistance of Bova, his enhanced cow, handmaid, she gave birth to Wanda and Pietro. She then wandered off into a storm, and has never been heard from again. It was then, that the twins were then given to the Maximoffs, a wandering gypsy couple. Then, during World War II, presumably, they were given to the Whizzer and his wife, who adopted them, giving them the last name "Frank."

Magneto met Magda in the Auschwitz Concentration Camp; they ran into the woods after the Soviet, American, & English armies liberated the camp. Eventually, they made their way to the Soviet Union where Magnus lived for several years & conceived a daughter, Anya. Since Magneto was in a concentration camp, his mutant powers did not manifest at puberty due to the lack of nutrition his body received in the camp. His powers manifested well into adulthood when he struck down the angry mob holding him back as his house burned with his only child in it. Prior to Classic X-Men #12, his daughter, Anya, was not name & unknown. She was mentioned as a simply Magneto's first child that died tragically in Uncanny X-Men #150 by Magneto himself when he struck down Kitty. This is when Magda ran off in horror.

Mark Gruenwald & Ralph Macchio came up with the plot for Quicksilver & the Scarlet Witch to be Magneto's biological children for The Avengers #185-187; however, they themselves did not know until The Vision & Scarlet Witch #4 (first series).

[Gozwald73]

This is completely wrong. Just to take one example, Invisible Kid II and Computo were from the Ivory Coast.



This claim is even more wrong than the previous one, but it would take too long to explain why.


Really? I had no idea they were from Cote d'Ivoire - cool!

[Gozwald73]

Recognizability by whom? The readers? Then Graviton doesn't count.



Sonar is one of Green Lantern's main villains. He probably shows up more often than Graviton for that matter.



Crisis on Infinite Earths and Hitman.



Ra's is only 700 years old. Most countries in the old world were already around back then.



But the rest are not.



You have no basis for saying this, other than a badly formed opinion based on a lack of information about international DCU heroes and a bias for Marvel. Heck, John Constantine alone has saved Earth several times before breakfast, and his breakfast was just cigarettes.

And the Ultra-Marines had their butt kicked by the Sheeda, who can beat anyone just as long as they don't bring seven members, so it's hardly their fault.



Who cares. They exist in the DCU. Maybe you should figure out what you are asking for before asking it. So... is it power? When we mention someone powerful you say he is not recognized. When we mention someone recognizable, you say he is not powerful or that he hasn't appeared in a while. Maybe you should take some time and figure what you actually want.



Maybe they should have thought of that before starting World War 2 and killing a million Jews. Just a thought.



Themyscera doesn't exist in the real world, but for all practically purposes it is an island somewhere in Greece with classic Greek culture in the DCU. To say Wonder Woman doesn't count cause you can't find it in a map, would be like saying Batman is not American cause, if you haven't noticed yet, Gotham City is not on any maps either.

Much as it pains me, I have to agree with Bat-Mite;) re: Sonar. He showed up recently in GL; and he was also the major villain a couple of years back in the Elongated Man mini.

[carabas]

The claim was that Savage and other Immortals are non-Americans and my point is that Marvel has this in abundance as well so in comparison, I don't see the big deal.

Well, all I did was pointing out that half of your listed examples don't qualify.
And even if they did, legally, Sonja and Conan aren't exactly good examples of Ra's/Savage type imortals, them having been dead for aeons.

[Bat-Mite]

I always wonder if this is why Marvel nowadays doesn't do licensed material.

Watcha talking about? They are doing Stephen King's The Dark Tower and Anita Blake comics right now. Not to mention the Dabel brother comics.

I find it hard to believe that countries like China and Russia are happy that an organization called the Justice League of America is all they have.

You already know of the existence of China's The Great Ten, and also of Russia's Red Rocket Brigade (They also had The People's Heroes) so your latest statement is just puzzling, since you already know that is not the case. You may not like these characters, but it's pretty evident that both Russia and China have their own superhuman thing going on.

Why is it impossible to even get a mini-series about non-American superteam?

DC has been publishing Hellblazer for years. DC even made a mini-event called Planet DC to show superheroes from other nations. DC had the Global Guardians. And you try to make it sound like DC has never published anything with foreigners in it.

Honestly, I am not the first person to notice this, judging from what I read in this thread, but it seems to me that you are so enamored with you "DC hates foreigners!" rant that you are ignoring evidence you are very much aware of, just so you can keep ranting about it.

[Bat-Mite]

Much as it pains me, I have to agree with Bat-Mite

That's because truth hurts.

[Shellhead]

DC and Marvel are different companies with different histories, resulting in different sets of popular characters. To say that one group of characters is better or worse than another because of a single trait is to willfully ignore their respective histories. If you're going to do that, why bother even talking about DC and Marvel?

DC was very prominent starting in the Golden Age, when the vast majority of comics were sold in the U.S. So most of their heroes from back then were Americans, as national pride was pretty strong in the U.S. during World War II and much of the Cold War era. A lot of those characters have demostrated enduring popularity, which is why DC tends to keep using certain concepts, in the Golden Age, the Silver Age and now, like Batman, or Flash or Green Lantern. This works okay for DC, since many of those early heroes were more timeless icons than vulnerable humans.

Marvel was known as Timely back in the Golden Age, and seemed to have a more limited stable of great characters at that time, judging by Marvel's inability to imitate the success of DC's JSA with their own Invaders title a few years back. I don't know a lot about the Golden Age, but I assume that the Timely brand was not doing well when Stan Lee came up with the Marvel name.

Since Marvel's greatest characters were mostly created in the Silver Age, there is more of a science-fiction angle (mutation, radiation accidents, and high technology), as well as a greater sense of the heroes as vulnerable, even handicapped folks, like Daredevil (blind), Thor (Donald Blake needed a cane), Cyclops (glasses), and the Thing (grotesquely ugly). By the Silver Age, America had moved beyond the isolationism of an earlier generation and embraced a greater role in worldwide events.

Neither DC nor Marvel has done a great job of introducing exciting and interesting new characters in the last 20 years. Let's face it, even Wolverine and the Punisher have been around for about 35 years now. Who has Marvel introduced in the last 20 years that really caught on? Gambit? And what about DC? Starman (Jack Knight)?

[Michael P]

Just out of curiosity. What's the current official stand with Magneto? Jewish or Gypsy? Also, where was he born in the first place?

Magneto is a gypsy. As for where he was born, probably somewhere in Eastern Europe.

[niall mc cann]

Magneto, according to what Claremont and Byrne had put together between X-Men and Avengers, was that he is Jewish. He and Magda were at home, in their village, when the Nazis came in. They roughed up at least, and more likely killed their daughter Anya, which led to Erik reacting violently, and magnetically. The pregnant Anya was so scared of him, and what he was capable of, that she fled into the night, and eventually found her way to Wundagore, and the High Evolutionary. With the assistance of Bova, his enhanced cow, handmaid, she gave birth to Wanda and Pietro. She then wandered off into a storm, and has never been heard from again. It was then, that the twins were then given to the Maximoffs, a wandering gypsy couple. Then, during World War II, presumably, they were given to the Whizzer and his wife, who adopted them, giving them the last name "Frank."

Are you sure that he's jewish? I was under the impression that he was a gypsy, though i'm not certain. A lot of what you say there is incorrect, i'm sure of that, and i'm just wondering if you're right about his ethnicity. Can you remember a specific reference?

[Pól Rua]

One answer is power creep.
If a character appears regularly in a title, his or her power level tends to go up. One of the more common tricks to make a character seem more interesting is to make their powers greater.
For example, Superman's 1/8th of a mile, nothing less than a bursting shell thing to tossing planets and Super Ventriloquism.
The Marvel Universe handbooks were also pretty telling, with characters like The Thing gaining five to ten tons of lifting capacity in each subsequent edition.
A second-string character like Captain Britain found himself leaping from being able to lift 3 tons to 80 tons by the simple process of being one of the lead characters in Excalibur.
Characters who appear in regular series tend to get more powerful as the series progresses. Those who appear irregularly as supporting or 'colour' characters every so often usually don't.
As 95% of mainstream superhero comics are published, produced, distributed, and set in America for primarily American audiences with American (or at least, white, English-speaking, indistinguishable from American) characters, these characters will mainly be American.
Hell, Americans are so averse to stories about people from other countries, they have to remake other countries' films with Americans so people will actually see them.

[Bat-Mite]

Magneto is a gypsy. As for where he was born, probably somewhere in Eastern Europe.

I think nobody has a clue where Magneto was born. Big whoop of a foreigner he is, the guy doesn't even have a made up country.

[Magneto_X]

I'm fairly sure Magneto is a Jew.

IIRC in the comics he's always been in the concentration camps (they even put that in the movies!), and he even mentioned in in the Cap issue where he buried Red Skull in a bunker. I could be misremembering it, however.

Bat-Mite:

Erik could be Polish.

[Michael P]

I'm fairly sure Magneto is a Jew.

IIRC in the comics he's always been in the concentration camps (they even put that in the movies!), and he even mentioned in in the Cap issue where he buried Red Skull in a bunker. I could be misremembering it, however.

Bat-Mite:

Erik could be Polish.

A lot more people than Jews died in the camps. I've always read Magnus as gypsy, particularly in light of Uncanny 199.

[Magneto_X]

A lot more people than Jews died in the camps. I've always read Magnus as gypsy, particularly in light of Uncanny 199.

While that is true Mags doesn't seem to fit into other catagories of people sent to the camps. He wasn't a homosexual, didn't work in the German press, wasn't in the resistance (during the war) etc.

What happened in Uncanny #199? Never read that issue.

[Jeff Brady]

Am I the only one who thought this thread was about building superintendants?

[Erebus]

I think Magneto married a Gypsy, but he was never actually a gypsy. Oh, and has anyone else noticed how Canada seems like an imaginary place in DC?

[StoneGold]

Oh, and has anyone else noticed how Canada seems like an imaginary place in DC?

Wait, Canada isn't?

[carabas]

I think that pretty much the only reason Canada has some heroes of its own in the MU is because their only really succesful character in decades happens to hail from Canada.
And because they had a Canadian star writer/artist (Byrne) at one time.

[Iangould]

Superman and the current Flash (who is from the United Planets, not America) are actually illegal aliens, as is the Martian Manhunter. If not for their diplomatic standing, Wonder Woman and Aquaman would be int he same boat.

Post-Man of Steel, the spaceship from Krypton contained an embryo created by in vitro fertilisation which wasn't "born" until the spaceship landed on Earth.

[StoneGold]

Post-Man of Steel, the spaceship from Krypton contained an embryo created by in vitro fertilisation which wasn't "born" until the spaceship landed on Earth.

Post-Birthright, that doesn't count anymore.

[Iangould]

Deleted as redundant.

[Tages]

Wait, Canada isn't?

You're thinking of Australia. Canada is very real, my friend.

Be afraid.

http://www.bitetv.ca/blog/archives/canadian_bacon.jpg

[Typo Lad]

If Magneto is meant to be Rom, then he has always been depicted as being in the wrong concentration camps.

Rom, homosexuals and Jews were all in seperate camps.

Auschwitz was strictly Jewish.

[Expletive Deleted]

If Magneto is meant to be Rom . . .Tell me I'm not the only one who read that and thought this:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/70058905482.61.GIF

C'mon, Magneto and Rom versus Nazi Dire Wraiths would be awesome.

[AllisterH]

If Magneto is meant to be Rom, then he has always been depicted as being in the wrong concentration camps.

Rom, homosexuals and Jews were all in seperate camps.

Auschwitz was strictly Jewish.

Do you think most marvel writers even knew this? About the separation I mean (I didn't). When Claremont created Mags backstory, with no net, he probably picked the one "death camp" most people have heard of, namely Auschwitz.

I mean, without looking at wikipedia, I wouldn't have the slightest clue as to the names/places of the other camps.

[Drew Van T.]

If Magneto is meant to be Rom, then he has always been depicted as being in the wrong concentration camps.

Rom, homosexuals and Jews were all in seperate camps.

Auschwitz was strictly Jewish.

You could argue that Auschwitz was depicted because it's the most famous camp by far. Superhero comics always go for the easiest, most superficial depiction of any foreign reality (hence all the stereotypes). The subtlety of different camps would be one of those things they'd naturally overlook.

[Typo Lad]

This is why I said "then he has always been depicted as being in the wrong concentration camps" rather than "he can't be because he was in Auschwitz."

I wasn't in the room when the story was written, so I can't speak to Mssr Claremont's intentions.

[Alex]

Oh, here, someone researched magneto jew debate.
http://cyberhellfireclub.myfreeforum.org/ftopic13.php&sid=209ef010f8fd0fe86b9e221718b7d84c
I haven't read it, i don't think it's hugely important to the character, since the main thrust of it was nazis made him hate humans, and lets make him a dick who randomly wants to destroy humanity (Depending on which writer is doing him, and what his mood is) so we can have Xavier call him a hypocrite.

[Tages]

Do you think most marvel writers even knew this? About the separation I mean (I didn't). When Claremont created Mags backstory, with no net, he probably picked the one "death camp" most people have heard of, namely Auschwitz.

I mean, without looking at wikipedia, I wouldn't have the slightest clue as to the names/places of the other camps.

Treblinka and Sobibor come to mind, off the top of me head.

[Tages]

If Magneto is meant to be Rom, then he has always been depicted as being in the wrong concentration camps.

Rom, homosexuals and Jews were all in seperate camps.

Auschwitz was strictly Jewish.

I also read somewhere that Nazis sometimes wouldn't even bother with the camps where Roma were concerned. They'd just unload them off the trains and shoot them outside the front gates.

[Typo Lad]

I also read somewhere that Nazis sometimes wouldn't even bother with the camps where Roma were concerned. They'd just unload them off the trains and shoot them outside the front gates.
They did that to Jews and Homosexuals as well.

In some ways though, the Rom had it wose. For one thing, there was a smaller population to begin with, as I recall.

Plus, no-one ever talks about them, you know? There are documentaries about Jewish Holocaust victims out the yin-ynag, and a few good ones about homosexuals and the mentally/physically handycaped.

I have yet to hear of one about the Roma.

[Tages]

They did that to Jews and Homosexuals as well.

In some ways though, the Rom had it wose. For one thing, there was a smaller population to begin with, as I recall.

Plus, no-one ever talks about them, you know? There are documentaries about Jewish Holocaust victims out the yin-ynag, and a few good ones about homosexuals and the mentally/physically handycaped.

I have yet to hear of one about the Roma.

I just checked imdb, Google, and wiki and came up with zip.

Tragic, isn't it?

[Alex]

I just checked imdb, Google, and wiki and came up with zip.

Tragic, isn't it?

I can't think of any documentary about gypsies at all.
They do magic tricks and get beaten with sticks in Kazakastan, also, they fight vampires.
That's about as much knowledge as i have ever gained.

[Typo Lad]

Think of it less as a tragedy and more as an opportunity to break into the documentary industry!

"The Forgotten Martyrs- The Rom Nation and the Holocaust"

[Paradox]

I was under the impression that Roy Thomas created Sonja (not Sonya, as was noted). I see that there was a suit last summer though, from the Sonya people. How did that turn out?

EDIT: Looks like I got the complaintant wrong. It was the SONJA people bringing suit. Not finding anything about the outcome, though.

And Magneto has flip-flopped from gypsy to Jew and back so much that it's just another X-retcon cluster-f**ck.

[Typo Lad]

I appear to be wrong. There was a Rom prescene in Auschwitz. They appear to mostly ahve bene in Buchenwald and Dachau, but there was a population in Auschwitz.

[Paradox]

Rom was in Auschwitz??? Well why didn't he use that funky light gun on the Ratzis??? Stupid Spaceknights! :mad:

[Typo Lad]

Ha-ha.

I was raised to not use the term "gypsy", as it can be used as a slur.

[AllisterH]

I was under the impression that Roy Thomas created Sonja (not Sonya, as was noted). I see that there was a suit last summer though, from the Sonya people. How did that turn out?


Still in court. It was actually a suit from the holders of the Red Sonja character against the holders of the Howard license (which includes Red Sonya). Apparently, the latter are "coasting" on the coattails of Red Sonja (although how the hell does the Howard library NOT own Red Sonja?)

I stand by my belief that the Sonja fiasco is what makes the new "license-material" distinctly different than before along with marvel's unwillingness to pay for said license (although how do companies like Devil Due afford the license then?). As well, I do consider Roy Thomas the creator of Red Sonja but given that it was a licensed character, marvel doesn't own it.

Marvel used to use its own writers and artists on its licensed material and furthermore, marvel tended to expand the universe (most of the backstory for both Transformers & GI Joe comes from the marvel office. Same thing with Red Sonja and Rom). Now, Marvel is just publishing but doesn't actually have anything physically to do with the licensed comics.

I seriously doubt that Marvel would say get involved with licensed material like before.

[thehod]

I think I understand what Allister is getting at here.

I've often felt that the Marvel Universe has a far more international flavour than the DC Universe. Now of course, this could just be because I'm not American and I may be seeing bias where none exists.

Having said that though, consider the "high profile" British superheroes between to two companies...

Marvel
Captain Britain
Union Jack

DC
John Constantine. Hardley a superhero though
erm... Godiva

Doesn't really compare does it?

Its not just Britain though. Lets try Russia..

Marvel
Black Widow
Colossus

DC
Red Star
Rocket Red

Again, the Marvel Russians would be considered much higher profile than the DC Russians

Marvel has the German Nightcrawler, DC has no German superheroes of note other than a vast array of Nazi supervillians.

Moving onto a whole continant, Marvel can boast two major Afrian superheroes in their ranks with Black Panther and Storm. And DC? Impala from Global Guardians I suppose. Doctor Mist?

Ohhh howabout Freedom Beast.

Vixen is probably the most well known DC African, and she hardley ranks up against Storm or Black Panther does she?

Marvels Canada has a whole superhero team. Does DC have a Canadian superhero?

Ok, I'm being a little picky here, and I sure someone will point out the glaring holes in my arguements, but I believe the point still stands. The big names in DC are either American, or totally associated with America. Wonder Woman has been muted as a good example of a non-American DC superhero. I'll grant you that she's not American. She does however dress herself in a costume thats essentially the American flag, so to say their is not an association between her and the country is false.

Superman is, I'll grant you an alien. Albeit an alien that fights for truth, justice and the American way..... Lets face it, the man's a yank.

I have to say I'm with Allister here. It'd be nice to see a DC superhero who isn't considered a d-lister at best and who has no American connections at all.

But then again, maybe I'm just seeing all this through foreign tinted specs.

[Matthew E]

For British heroes, DC's also got the Beefeater, for whatever that's worth. They had a Canadian hero named... I forget. Something like 'Centrix'. Also there was a Canadian in Young All-Stars named the Flying Fox. No idea if he's still in continuity. The German member of the Global Guardians was a guy named the Wild Huntsman.

But, yes. Slim pickings.

[Michael P]

What happened in Uncanny #199? Never read that issue.

Mags gives a rather impassioned speech to Kitty about how far more than Jews were exterminated in the camps. I always took that to mean he was of non-Jewish ethnicity.

[Bat-Mite]

Also there was a Canadian in Young All-Stars named the Flying Fox.

There was a Canadian guy in young Heroes in Love too. Not to mention the Sparx(?) and the Force Family.

There is a big list provided by many posters at the begining of the thread for anyone who actually wants to bother reading the thread.

[Gingold]

The super in my old building wasn't American, and he did a bang-up job.

[thehod]

There was a Canadian guy in young Heroes in Love too. Not to mention the Sparx(?) and the Force Family.

There is a big list provided by many posters at the begining of the thread for anyone who actually wants to bother reading the thread.

I'm not saying there aren't any non-American DC superheroes, I just saying that the ones that DC does have are hardly the creme de le menthe (great Del Trotter quote that) of the DC Superhero world.

Most of them would struggle to be classed as d-listers, and the Young Heroes in Love would struggle to make any letter of the alphabet listers.

[Bat-Mite]

I'm not saying there aren't any non-American DC superheroes,

You asked if there were any Canadians, and people answered.

I just saying that the ones that DC does have are hardly the creme de le menthe (great Del Trotter quote that) of the DC Superhero world.


While that completely and totally true as true can be, the same goes for Marvel, so I really don't see what's so special about Marvel's non-Americans. At best 99% non-Americans are B-list or C-list characters. I can only think of two non American characters in comics (limiting the sample to just DC and Marvel, and only their shared universe at that) who can be counted as A-list characters: Wolverine and John Constantine. Actually, I'll go ahead and add Wonder Woman, who is Greek although from a completely fictitious independent island. Everybody else is B list and under.

And everybody can play this game you were playing:

DC UK: John Constantine, Beef Eater, Knight and Squire, That guy from Planet DC whatever his name was.
Marvel UK: Captain Britain, Union Jack.

Ok, fine, Marvel has more recognizable UK superheroes. Mind you, John Constantine is far more famous and successful character than either CB or UJ, but whatever, that's not the point.

DC Brazil: Fire.
Marvel Brazil: ??

Winner: DC! Hooray!

DC Iceland: Ice, Ice Maiden... wait... were both from Iceland or just one of them? Never mind.
Marvel Iceland: ??

Winner: DC!

DC Argentina: The guys from Super Malón (my first language is Spanish, and I have no clue what that name is supposed to mean), Gaucho.
Marvel Argentina: Crap if I know. I'll be nice and give them Gordo Porcel for free.

Winner: DC!

DC Japan: Dr. Light, Toy Master, Most Awesome Super Bat, Johnny Karaoke
Marvel Japan: The guys from Big Hero Six and Silver Samurai

While the victory technically belongs to Dr. Light, my heart goes to Most Awesome Super Bat and Johnny Karaoke!

But it is meaningless. For every country where DC has a B-List hero or a C list hero and Marvel either has nothing, or some really obscure loser, there is another country where the reverse is true.

[thehod]

But it is meaningless. For every country where DC has a B-List hero or a C list hero and Marvel either has nothing, or some really obscure loser, there is another country where the reverse is true.

True, but that's not what I'm pointing out.

Marvel has far more diversty in its top tier characters than DC has. Sure when you get down to the also rans were evans stevens, but the more high profile characters are more diverse.

Take the classic x-men line up. You've got a Russian, an African, a German and a Canadian.

Take the classic JLA lineup. Yank, Yank, Yank, alien who for all intents and purposes is a yank and an Amazon who wraps herself up in an American flag. And a martian who can be anyone he wants I suppose. And a guy from Atlantis.

Even in the classic Avengers line-up you've got a Russian and an African amongst a bunch of yanks. And aliens.

OK, confession time. I'm a little patchy on Avengers members, but I think that the X-men is a better example as they are the more popular team.

I know DC does have diversty in its characters. I've been reading the damn things for nigh on 20 years, so I am aware of most of these characters. However if you look at the universally popular Marvel and DC characters you'll find that Marvel has a more international diversity than DC.

And I'm not saying that's a problem. Hell, I'm a DC boy through and through. Its just something I've noticed.

[Ontir]

Post-Man of Steel, the spaceship from Krypton contained an embryo created by in vitro fertilisation which wasn't "born" until the spaceship landed on Earth.

IIRC, the current "canon" origin, is more like the original. He was an infant ON Krypton, prior to its explosion, and was then sent to Earth, making him an illegal alien, once again. Of course, pre-Crisis, this idea was dealt with, in that the United Nations members conferred citizenship upon the Man of Steel, as thanks for all his great works.

[Erebus]

Oh, and apparently, Martian Manhunter is much more popular then Superman in the DCU's Austrailia and South America.

[Doc Midnight]

True, but that's not what I'm pointing out.

Marvel has far more diversty in its top tier characters than DC has. Sure when you get down to the also rans were evans stevens, but the more high profile characters are more diverse.

Take the classic x-men line up. You've got a Russian, an African, a German and a Canadian.

Take the classic JLA lineup. Yank, Yank, Yank, alien who for all intents and purposes is a yank and an Amazon who wraps herself up in an American flag. And a martian who can be anyone he wants I suppose. And a guy from Atlantis.

Even in the classic Avengers line-up you've got a Russian and an African amongst a bunch of yanks. And aliens.

OK, confession time. I'm a little patchy on Avengers members, but I think that the X-men is a better example as they are the more popular team.

I know DC does have diversty in its characters. I've been reading the damn things for nigh on 20 years, so I am aware of most of these characters. However if you look at the universally popular Marvel and DC characters you'll find that Marvel has a more international diversity than DC.

And I'm not saying that's a problem. Hell, I'm a DC boy through and through. Its just something I've noticed.

Ok we have to keep it to the original argument. It was DC has crap for representaion of heroes who were presented as being foreign and NOT American.

I'm not sure why folks want to use the Classic X-Men as an example. Especially Colossus. many of those characters were only foreign becase they spoke that one word in another language aver other word ballon. Those characters were all essentially Americans dressed up for international play.

I'd count any characters whose work is at least somewhat in the name of the country of their Birth. Wolverine, Banshee, Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Storm theoretically don't have a damn thing to do with anyplace BUT NYC.

Marvel fans would do better to name Vanguard, Darkstar and Ursa Major. Even Sunfire spent most of his time in Japan as did the Silver Samurai.

None of these guys support comics of their own outside of Namor, Black Panther and Wolverine and in every case, nationality has zero to do with it. Not taking shit from people does though.

You also can't compare "Classic JLA" to "Classic X-Men since they were from vastly different eras. The JLA of Superman, Batman, Flash, GL, WW, Aquaman and MM, weren't meant to be diverse. No one had diversity back then. The team that came closest to it would be the team created to compete with it and that would have been the FF (not the Avengers or the X-Men).

It would be YEARS before the X-Men gained "diversity" and as I pointed out before, it was really just a bunch of accents.

[Deathstroke]

Because no one has truly recognized the storytelling possibilities of Shamrock!

[niall mc cann]

DC Brazil: Fire.
Marvel Brazil: ??

Winner: DC! Hooray!

Sunspot's from Brazil, i think.

DC Iceland: Ice, Ice Maiden... wait... were both from Iceland or just one of them? Never mind.
Marvel Iceland: ??

Winner: DC!

Ice was from Norway, i think, wasn't she?



But it is meaningless. For every country where DC has a B-List hero or a C list hero and Marvel either has nothing, or some really obscure loser, there is another country where the reverse is true.

I don't know... i actually do have a bit of time for the observation that the MU tends to be a bit more internationally-minded than the DCU, which i think is probably true; counting random supporting cast members or getting defensive on behalf of one company or the other probably isn't the best way to explore the idea.

[niall mc cann]

It would be YEARS before the X-Men gained "diversity" and as I pointed out before, it was really just a bunch of accents.

I don't think that's the case...

I think they were genuinely attempting to be diverse, and they were much more than simply americans with accents... in truth, i think they were slightly too far in the other direction, to the point where many of them weren't much more than stereotypes... Kurt was a freakish bavarian from a travelling circus, for crying out loud! Frankly, its almost like a character story from the wolfman or some old universal horror like that. Now, is that story authentic for a nineteen seventies german teen? Probably not, but it was something distinctly unamerican, in that i don't think they would have tried to sell an american with a similar origin in the book at that time.

Ororo was practically a character from a H Rider Haggard story, and speaking as an irishman, banshee is a walking stereotype (though i admit a soft spot for the character). These were certainly not americans with accents.

As an attempt at an authentically international superteam, it was perhaps unsubtle and OTT, but it was definitely more than just some altered word balloons. there was a definite air in those classic stories of different cultures colliding in the ol' Xaier house.

also, in terms of the JLA/FF comparison, i think even then, there was more of a globe-trotting/international flavour to the FF than there was in the JLA, although i admit i haven't read that era's JLA as extensively as i have Lee/Kirby's FF.

[Bat-Mite]

Ice was from Norway, i think, wasn't she?

According to wikipedia, Both Ice and Icemaiden are from Norway. I can almost swear I read Iceland somewhere, but I have no other source, so I'll have to go with what Wiki says.

getting defensive on behalf of one company or the other probably isn't the best way to explore the idea.

Well, since the conversation is "Marvel is more international than DC", it's a tad bit logically impossible to take the opposite stand without defending DC, you know?

I am honestly wondering what the heck you expect me to do instead.

also, in terms of the JLA/FF comparison, i think even then, there was more of a globe-trotting/international flavour to the FF than there was in the JLA

Well, then I suggest you get yourself th Showcase presents JLA book and see them travel all around the world all the time.

[Bat-Mite]

Marvel has far more diversity in its top tier characters than DC has. Sure when you get down to the also rans were evans stevens, but the more high profile characters are more diverse.

That is true, but since the number of top tier characters in both universes (and, to my mind, top tiers are those characters that people who don't read comics might recognize) who are not American is very low (Constantine, Wonder Woman, Thor, Wolverine, Storm, Colossus and Nightcrawler) it doesn't exactly give me all that much of an international vibe either way. Specially since four of those characters are basically in the same team.

I just don't think that's a good way to measure how international an entire shared universe is.

[niall mc cann]

According to wikipedia, Both Ice and Icemaiden are from Norway. I can almost swear I read Iceland somewhere, but I have no other source, so I'll have to go with what Wiki says.

i've got no experience with icemaiden, but i like ice, and remember her time in the justice league fondly enough. I don't know where i got norway from, but i do know that i considered her norwegian.



Well, since the conversation is "Marvel is more international than DC", it's a tad bit logically impossible to take the opposite stand without defending DC, you know?

I am honestly wondering what the heck you expect me to do instead.

the topic was actually "why are non-american supers in the DCU so pathetic?".

The originator took a seriously flaming stance and drew a comparitive example with marvel, but the question required neither. Just ill-judgement on his part, i would have said.

And i don't expect you to do anything. You can do whatever you want.



Well, then I suggest you get yourself th Showcase presents JLA book and see them travel all around the world all the time.

I might do that. Where did they go? Who did they meet?

[Bat-Mite]

the topic was actually

WAS, and then it mutated.

Where did they go? Who did they meet?

Everywhere. A lot of the stories involved the team dividing in smaller groups and tackling the problem in different parts of the world.

[Pól Rua]

They did that to Jews and Homosexuals as well.

In some ways though, the Rom had it wose. For one thing, there was a smaller population to begin with, as I recall.

Plus, no-one ever talks about them, you know? There are documentaries about Jewish Holocaust victims out the yin-ynag, and a few good ones about homosexuals and the mentally/physically handycaped.

I have yet to hear of one about the Roma.

I saw one a couple of years ago, alas, I don't recall the name.
But the scariest bit was the modern interviews where people on the street were advocating mass deportations and executions for those 'unwilling to relocate', as well as all the delightful 'Eternal Jew'-esque stereotypes.

[Pól Rua]

It would be YEARS before the X-Men gained "diversity" and as I pointed out before, it was really just a bunch of accents.

Not to mention, the idea came from The Blackhawks.

[AllisterH]

I guess I just want to see a team from a different country not be anything more than cannon fodder.

The original Ice is dead while the new Icemaiden has just been deskinned so not exactly an impressive pedigree of Norweigan heroes.

Take the recent GL where the JLA & GL pretty much walked all over the Rocket Reds. To me, it is jingnostic to always have the uber-America heroes. Why cant the non-Americans be that powerful? That's all I'm asking and yeah, I did use marvel as an example but its just a comparison. I mean, why is it wrong for me as a non-American to want cool Canadian heroes in the DCU?

I mean, most of the iterations of either Alpha Flight/Excalibur/the Winterguard are, at the least, a decent fight for most of the Avenger lineups and more importantly, I actually think that if say, all the American based heroes disappear, Marvel Earth is still well protected.

Can you honestly say to yourself that you would feel confident if all the American based DC heroes disappear.

Sure, I bitch and complain about some of the artist depictions of Canada in the DCU (the Weapon X program run by the Canadian government, yeah, that makes them make George W. Bush a cuddly teddy bear in comparison), but at least I have *SOMETHING* to complain about.

[niall mc cann]

Sure, I bitch and complain about some of the artist depictions of Canada in the DCU (the Weapon X program run by the Canadian government, yeah, that makes them make George W. Bush a cuddly teddy bear in comparison), but at least I have *SOMETHING* to complain about.

I wouldn't be that sure...

i mean, these are american comics.

that is, comics produced by american companies with american creators for a largely american readership...

If you want to see something authentically canadian, why not read a canadian comic?

[carabas]

ITake the recent GL where the JLA & GL pretty much walked all over the Rocket Reds. To me, it is jingnostic to always have the uber-America heroes. Why cant the non-Americans be that powerful? That's all I'm asking and yeah, I did use marvel as an example but its just a comparison. I mean, why is it wrong for me as a non-American to want cool Canadian heroes in the DCU?

You know, if Iron Man, Thor, the Sentry, Dr. Strange and the Hulk are going to take on the Marvel Canadia, Japanese or Russian superforces, the fights going to be pretty much the same as the Rocket Reds vs. JLA thing.

[AllisterH]

You know, if Iron Man, Thor, the Sentry, Dr. Strange and the Hulk are going to take on the Marvel Canadia, Japanese or Russian superforces, the fights going to be pretty much the same as the Rocket Reds vs. JLA thing.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

1. The Avengers have never HAD a lineup like that. So just pulling random heroes like that does not equate to the JLA. Hell, both Strange and the Hulk aren't considered Avengers. A normal Avengers lineup is more like either the new Avengers (Sentry, Iron Man, Spider-woman, Spider-man, Cage, Captain America). Seriously, what does a random group of heroes have anything to do with my topic? Now, if you said, the Defenders, I'd see your point but even then the Defenders were never "America's team"

2. Marvel Canada - Depends on the lineup.
Madison Jeffries (Box), Talisman (Elizabeth Twoyoungmen), Pathway (Laura Dean), Persuasion (Kara Killgrave) and Sasquatch have a more than decent chance of beating the above. At the least, they can at least provide a decent fight.

Similarly, Marvel Russia has enough heroes that even the above lineup (bar Sentry doing a speedblitz), they would provide a decent challenge even to that random group of heroes.

Marvel Japan, now they are kinda screwed but then again, against most other lineups, Big Hero Six has decent odds against most past Avenger lineups.

[carabas]

I thought that thiw was about comparing DC America's most powerful heroes (which happen to be in the JLA for the most part) against their Marvel counterparts (and let's face it, The Avengers were never the most powerful heroes) rather than a Avengers/JLA comparison.

And the Sentry or Dr. strange or The Hulk could probably handle the Canadian lineup solo, unles the book's title is Alpha flight.

[niall mc cann]

:confused: :confused: :confused:

1. The Avengers have never HAD a lineup like that. So just pulling random heroes like that does not equate to the JLA. Hell, both Strange and the Hulk aren't considered Avengers. A normal Avengers lineup is more like either the new Avengers (Sentry, Iron Man, Spider-woman, Spider-man, Cage, Captain America). Seriously, what does a random group of heroes have anything to do with my topic? Now, if you said, the Defenders, I'd see your point but even then the Defenders were never "America's team"



I'm confused too.

What have the avengers got to do with anything? The topic was american heroes. Everyone on the list was american.

[Iangould]

They did that to Jews and Homosexuals as well.

In some ways though, the Rom had it wose. For one thing, there was a smaller population to begin with, as I recall.

Plus, no-one ever talks about them, you know? There are documentaries about Jewish Holocaust victims out the yin-ynag, and a few good ones about homosexuals and the mentally/physically handycaped.

I have yet to hear of one about the Roma.

How many people know that the Ustase (Croatian fascists allied to the Nazis) killed around three million serbs? That's roughly one in three of the entire Serbian population -about the same proportion as the Jews killed by Nazis.

It makes the Serbian hostility to the Croats in the 1990's more understandable, if not excusable.

[berk]

I think whoever pointed out that Marvel and DC are American companies catering mainly to an American market made a good, er, point, and I'm sure we all take that into account when we read their stuff. But sometimes it does get a bit out of hand - I mean, like making the Justice League of America the defenders of the whole planet earth, as if the rest of the planet didn't exist; or making Captain America into such a paragon of virtue that you almost expect the other characters to fall on their knees every time he appears.

[Paul McEnery]

Not to mention, the idea came from The Blackhawks.

Too much credit.

It came from Star Trek.

[Tages]

How many people know that the Ustase (Croatian fascists allied to the Nazis) killed around three million serbs? That's roughly one in three of the entire Serbian population -about the same proportion as the Jews killed by Nazis.

It makes the Serbian hostility to the Croats in the 1990's more understandable, if not excusable.

People don't believe me when I tell them that the first ethnic cleansing in the Balkans of the 20th Century was practiced against Serbs rather than by them.

(One of my pet peeves is when people seem to assume that the Serbs were responsible for every single ethnic massacre in SE Europe in the last hundred years)

[Iangould]

People don't believe me when I tell them that the first ethnic cleansing in the Balkans of the 20th Century was practiced against Serbs rather than by them.

(One of my pet peeves is when people seem to assume that the Serbs were responsible for every single ethnic massacre in SE Europe in the last hundred years)

EQualy annoying were the people who "knew" that the Serbs, Croats and Bosnians had been killing each other for centuries but couldn't provide a single piece of evidence to support this view or explain how they "knew" it.

[carabas]

Too much credit.

It came from Star Trek.

The Blackhawks predate Star Trek by about two decades.

[StoneGold]

The Blackhawks predate Star Trek by about two decades.

True. But on the other hand, you also have to bring up Chop-Chop mark 1.

http://www.comictreadmill.com/images/ChopChop.jpg

[carabas]

http://www.comictreadmill.com/images/ChopChop.jpg

All right, fess up. Who crossbreeded Paris Hilton's dog with a Dominator?

[The Comic Book Guy]

I haven't really noticed that non-American metahumans are pathetic.

I can think of tons of characters from half-a-dozen comics companies who are far from pathetic. Marvel alone has a large number of awesome non-American supers. Take Sunfire, my all-time favorite non-American super. No way he's pathetic.

[howyadoin]

that is, comics produced by american companies with american creators...Except for creators like Joe Shuster, John Byrne, Joe Kubert, Tony DeZuniga, Ernie Chan, Todd McFarlane, Jae Lee, Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, Warren Ellis and tons of others, of course...

[StoneGold]

Except for creators like Joe Shuster, John Byrne, Joe Kubert, Tony DeZuniga, Ernie Chan, Todd McFarlane, Jae Lee, Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, Warren Ellis and tons of others, of course...

Canada doesn't count though, because it's America Jr.

[Alex]

Canada doesn't count though, because it's America Jr.

However, it's called Canada, and it has Wolverine, who soloed Galactus.

[thehod]

However, it's called Canada, and it has Wolverine, who soloed Galactus.

Hang on a second, not to go all Rumbles here, but Wolverine did Galactus???

Galactus wouldn't even stop to check what the Wolverine shaped mess was on the bottom of his shoes.

[Alex]

Hang on a second, not to go all Rumbles here, but Wolverine did Galactus???

Galactus wouldn't even stop to check what the Wolverine shaped mess was on the bottom of his shoes.

http://cosmicbeings.tripod.com/images/themes/wgal.jpg
He didn't "Beat him" but he kinda fought him, and lived.

[thehod]

He didn't "Beat him" but he kinda fought him, and lived.

I refer the honourable gentlemen to the Wolverine shaped mess on the bottom of Galactus's shoe answer I gave some moments before.

[niall mc cann]

Except for creators like Joe Shuster, John Byrne, Joe Kubert, Tony DeZuniga, Ernie Chan, Todd McFarlane, Jae Lee, Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, Warren Ellis and tons of others, of course...

i'd still be willing to bet the majority of creators working for the main american companies since the forties have been american.

Also, i'd be willing to bet most of the non-americans were working with largely american casts of characters in an american idiom.

The point still stands, i think. If you want an authentically canadian story, why look for it in the cultural produce of a foreign country?

[Drew Van T.]

I refer the honourable gentlemen to the Wolverine shaped mess on the bottom of Galactus's shoe answer I gave some moments before.

The adamantium makes a crunchy sound every time Galactus takes a step.