Is She-Hulk a hypocrite? (Speculation and Spoilers)

[Orion101]

Anyone who has seen the solicits for She-Hulk's series knows that she is eventually going to find out what the Illuminati did to her cousin and will not be happy about it. They also know she will be involved in World War Hulk, the question in my mind is, doesn't this make her a hypocrite? I mean in Civil War she has no problem hunting down other heroes and carting them off to the negative zone. In a recent issue she even assures Reed that what they are doing is right. Now after all of this she gets upset becuase they sent her cousin off to another planet and gets violent. Isn't this something of a double standard. when they pull this on other heroes it's okay but when it's her cousin then it's wrong. What does everyone else think.

[CMBMOOL]

Anyone who has seen the solicits for She-Hulk's series knows that she is eventually going to find out what the Illuminati did to her cousin and will not be happy about it. They also know she will be involved in World War Hulk, the question in my mind is, doesn't this make her a hypocrite? I mean in Civil War she has no problem hunting down other heroes and carting them off to the negative zone. In a recent issue she even assures Reed that what they are doing is right. Now after all of this she gets upset becuase they sent her cousin off to another planet and gets violent. Isn't this something of a double standard. when they pull this on other heroes it's okay but when it's her cousin then it's wrong. What does everyone else think.


THat is a question that I'm hoping Dan Slott will answer in the Planet without a Hulk arc in the current She-Hulk series. :o

[XPac]

I suppose what justifies it in Jen's mind is that she believes what they are doing with the unregistered heroes is constitutional (why any lawyer would believe that is beyond me).

But yes, there is a good degree of nepetism in Jens thinking. This might be enough to get her to switch sides, if there are sides left by the time this becomes an issue.

Tony and the PRO's already sort of screwed Jen over a bit by drafting her. Finding out what these same people did to her cousin might give her the same revelation Spidey had.

[Jmacq1]

What happened to her cousin was different.

Hulk wasn't exiled by rule of law, or even the will of the people. He was banished by a small group of elitists that took it upon themselves to decide what was best for the whole world, with absolutely no regard for how anyone else might feel about it.

With Civil War, She-Hulk is upholding the law. Period. If Hulk had been officially deemed a "threat to humanity" by some kind of court of law or "official" decree, her opinion on the matter might be different. She might not like it, but she'd probably understand it. The Illuminati doing it though, is as "unofficial" as it gets. In fact, it's a small group basically making their own law, simply because they feel they're best qualified to make the big decisions. In its' own way, it's a form of tyranny.

If anything, I'd say it's a sign of hypocrisy on the part of Iron Man or Mr. Fantastic more so than She-Hulk. (IE Believing themselves best qualified to decide the fate of the world, but now claiming they have to be bound by the will of the people)

[XPac]

With Civil War, She-Hulk is upholding the law. Period. If Hulk had been officially deemed a "threat to humanity" by some kind of court of law or "official" decree, her opinion on the matter might be different. She might not like it, but she'd probably understand it. The Illuminati doing it though, is as "unofficial" as it gets. In fact, it's a small group basically making their own law, simply because they feel they're best qualified to make the big decisions. In its' own way, it's a form of tyranny.



Out of curiosity... if a court of law had degreed that Hulk should be launched into space, do you think Jen's opinion would be different?

[Haunt]

What happened to her cousin was different.

Hulk wasn't exiled by rule of law, or even the will of the people.

you're kidding right? the Hulk was a threat to all of humanity. the military was after him. what the Illuminati did was far more benevolent than what the government had planned. and i'm pretty sure that the rule of law would have required the Hulk to be locked away and, if put to a vote, the 'people' would eagerly agree to a nuke being dropped on him.

[Orion101]

and i'm pretty sure that the rule of law would have required the Hulk to be locked away and, if put to a vote, the 'people' would eagerly agree to a nuke being dropped on him.Not that it would do much more than annoy him.:D

[XPac]

Not that it would do much more than annoy him.:D

For real... the only people the government hurts with their "hulk busting" are the taxpayers who keep having to foot the bill.

[Thursaiz]

When push comes to shove during 'World War Hulk', I wonder if Jen will join her cousin. That would be cool. Imagine Hulk, Doc Samson and She-Hulk coming at you in a fight. Awesome!

[Alan2099]

you're kidding right? the Hulk was a threat to all of humanity.
If punky humans had left Hulk alone, Hulk wouldn't have had to smash puny man.

Plus he's saved the world plenty of times.

[Jmacq1]

you're kidding right? the Hulk was a threat to all of humanity. the military was after him. what the Illuminati did was far more benevolent than what the government had planned. and i'm pretty sure that the rule of law would have required the Hulk to be locked away and, if put to a vote, the 'people' would eagerly agree to a nuke being dropped on him.

Would you like to argue the actual point now?

The point is that it WASN'T done lawfully. Unlike the SHRA. Love it or hate it, it's the law. Hulk's exile was -not-. And funny enough Hulk was never explicitly a "threat to all humanity" until your "favorite" writer retconned it into him, anyway.

But I guess "the law" and "a bunch of dudes who just decided they should be in charge" are the same thing to you?

Out of curiosity... if a court of law had degreed that Hulk should be launched into space, do you think Jen's opinion would be different?

I think as long as Bruce/The Hulk was given a fair trial/hearing/whatever (particularly if she were allowed to defend him herself), that Jen would very begrudgingly accept it. The key word being "fair."

[XPac]

I think as long as Bruce/The Hulk was given a fair trial/hearing/whatever (particularly if she were allowed to defend him herself), that Jen would very begrudgingly accept it. The key word being "fair."

So you think Jen would begrudingly accept her cousin getting launched into space. Hmmm... okay.

[Jmacq1]

So you think Jen would begrudingly accept her cousin getting launched into space. Hmmm... okay.

I said as long as he got a FAIR trial. I said -nothing- about whether or not such a thing would even be possible within the Marvel Universe.

But I think it's equally unlikely that a court would actually pass down the sentence of "You must be launched into space."

Not to mention that Hulk's retcon into being a mass-murderer came -after- She-Hulk's claim that he'd never killed anyone (IIRC). If the order were reversed, or it were clearly shown that the Hulk had caused multiple innocent deaths in situations when he was -not- directly being influenced by outside sources, her opinion might well be different.

My personal belief is that Jen's "rose colored glasses" where her cousin is concerned would only go so far once incontrovertible evidence was produced that the Hulk -was- in fact a deadly threat under normal circumstances (normal for the Hulk, anyway).

[XPac]

What is it with people not reading what I type today?

I said as long as he got a FAIR trial. I said -nothing- about whether or not such a thing would even be possible within the Marvel Universe.

But I think it's equally unlikely that a court would actually pass down the sentence of "You must be launched into space."

I did read what you said.

And you said that if Bruce got a fair trial, Jen would begrudingly accept Bruce getting launced into space. And I said okay. What about my answer made you think I am not reading what you typed?

[Jmacq1]

I did read what you said.

And you said that if Bruce got a fair trial, Jen would begrudingly accept Bruce getting launced into space. And I said okay. What about my answer made you think I am not reading what you typed?

Sorry, I got the impression it was more of a sarcastic "OK" or a "yeah...right" OK.

I apologize for the snarkiness. I edited my post and added some further clarification of my viewpoint.

[CMBMOOL]

When push comes to shove during 'World War Hulk', I wonder if Jen will join her cousin. That would be cool. Imagine Hulk, Doc Samson and She-Hulk coming at you in a fight. Awesome!


Something tells me this is where the current She-Hulk series could be headed after the Planet without the Hulk arc. :D

[Kevinroc]

What happened to Bruce Banner was different.

They had asked Hulk to save the world. He did what they asked. Even after they lied to him about the specific nature of the threat, he still did it. And then they stabbed him in the back and exiled him.

When Capekillers go after unregistered combatents, you know why they did it. You get plenty of warning and you know you're at risk. When they ask you for help and then stab you in the back, it definitely is different.

[John Nowak]

So you think Jen would begrudingly accept her cousin getting launched into space. Hmmm... okay.

Silly, isn't it? I mean, if due process and the law were important to Jan, you'd think she'd be a lawyer or something.

[XPac]

Silly, isn't it? I mean, if due process and the law were important to Jan, you'd think she'd be a lawyer or something.

Truthfully... I do wonder whether due process is important to Jen. Seriously.

When she goes on record arguing that a law which states that unregistered combatants have no rights is unconstitutional, and ya have to stop and wonder what cereal box Jen got her law degree out of.

[Alpow]

It depends whether Jen believes the Anti-Reg people will get trials or not, if not then what Tony is doing is only different from what he did to the Hulk in that this time he has explicit support from the President/SHIELD instead of just implicit support for his actions with the Hulk.

[wellsoul2]

It depends whether Jen believes the Anti-Reg people will get trials or not, if not then what Tony is doing is only different from what he did to the Hulk in that this time he has explicit support from the President/SHIELD instead of just implicit support for his actions with the Hulk.

I could buy Jen defending the SHRA on the same basis as Stark.
She's hurt people herself when something caused her to be out of
control recently..as when she ripped the Vision in half and nearly killed
Wasp and female Capt Britain during Avengers Dissembled.

So as Stark remembers almost killing in the armor while drunk she remembers
being out of control and almost killing friends.
So they both support SHRA at least partially due to guilt/fear of their own
bad sides..

Is She-Hulk really a liberal anyway? She may support poor people but seems
to be a bit law and order herself.

[bulbasteve]

Is She-Hulk really a liberal anyway? She may support poor people but seems
to be a bit law and order herself.

The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

[John Nowak]

Truthfully... I do wonder whether due process is important to Jen. Seriously.


It could go wither way, actually.


When she goes on record arguing that a law which states that unregistered combatants have no rights is unconstitutional, and ya have to stop and wonder what cereal box Jen got her law degree out of.

Actually, I'm more curious to know which comic described the SHRA that way. As far as I know, they've never actually printed the text of the SHRA anywhere, which is one of the reasons the books seem to be all over the place.

[XPac]

It could go wither way, actually.



Actually, I'm more curious to know which comic described the SHRA that way. As far as I know, they've never actually printed the text of the SHRA anywhere, which is one of the reasons the books seem to be all over the place.

They never printed the registrations text. Like everything else, it was just mentioned that unregistered combatants lose all their rights. I believe it was in Frontline.

[Kevinroc]

They never printed the registrations text. Like everything else, it was just mentioned that unregistered combatants lose all their rights. I believe it was in Frontline.

Hulk was taken off the field before Registration became law for super humans.

[John Nowak]

They never printed the registrations text. Like everything else, it was just mentioned that unregistered combatants lose all their rights. I believe it was in Frontline.

Afraid I haven't been following Frontline -- does anyone have a direct quote or a scan?

[Sijo]

Banishing Hulk is nothing new. They've tried it before. In fact, there was a pretty long arc (I think it was around Hulk #300) where Hulk, after going virtually mindless when Banner commited "psychic suicide", was banished by Dr. Strange with a spell that kept shifting him from dimension to dimension until he found one where he could be happy. He was eventually pulled back to Earth by, of all people, Alpha Flight. Makes you wonder why Strange didn;t just banish him again. (I guess modern writers just don't have the imagination the ones 20 years ago did.)

[AllisterH]

If punky humans had left Hulk alone, Hulk wouldn't have had to smash puny man.

Plus he's saved the world plenty of times.

But he's caused about as much destruction as he has prevented, hella, I'd argued he has done MORE...

As for humans leaving him alone, er, I have a Hulk comic where some kids are playing music loudly at a beach and this pisses off Hulk so he throws the ir cars around....

ITs impossible NOT to piss off the hulk for humanity as pretty much anything and everything will set him off.

[XPac]

But he's caused about as much destruction as he has prevented, hella, I'd argued he has done MORE...

As for humans leaving him alone, er, I have a Hulk comic where some kids are playing music loudly at a beach and this pisses off Hulk so he throws the ir cars around....

ITs impossible NOT to piss off the hulk for humanity as pretty much anything and everything will set him off.

I wouldn't agree that he's caused more destruction than he's prevented. He's helped save the world on multiple occasions. I don't recall him destroying the world, so it really doesn't level out.

I won't say the fact that he's done a lot of good necessarily means he deserves a blind eye to the destruction he causes. But I would nonetheless argue that he should be pretty low on everyone's list of fires to put out since he usually only Hulks out when the military attack him first, or when he's stopping a badguy that is likely more dangerous than he is.

As powerful as Hulk is, truthfully there are bigger fish to fry. Most of the time more harm than good occurs when you attack him anyways.

[Edward J Cunningham]

Why limit this to Jennifer? Let's cut to the chase and rephrase the question...

Are the pro-SHRA heroes hypocrites?

Eddie Cunningham

[IamtheRock3]

I wouldn't agree that he's caused more destruction than he's prevented. He's helped save the world on multiple occasions. I don't recall him destroying the world, so it really doesn't level out.

I won't say the fact that he's done a lot of good necessarily means he deserves a blind eye to the destruction he causes. But I would nonetheless argue that he should be pretty low on everyone's list of fires to put out since he usually only Hulks out when the military attack him first, or when he's stopping a badguy that is likely more dangerous than he is.

As powerful as Hulk is, truthfully there are bigger fish to fry. Most of the time more harm than good occurs when you attack him anyways.


To be fair same can be said about Dr Doom and Lex

how many time has at the end of the day, Doom and Lex help save the universe cause it was in there own interest, Lex a little Less, but can pick some less stuff

got to accept that new reconned happen. Hulk apparently killed a lot

That said

if the SHRA end up getting no trials, then she being a hypocrit

cause it inst really that big a differnce to what Tony did. Shield was aware of what Tony was doing. So wasnt really just the 3 of them. They had help. So it partly a goverment thing

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

I don't think it's fair to call She-Hulk a hypocrite over this. It's only natural that she'd feel more for her cousin than for some random stranger - that's simply human - but I don't think we've yet seen that in identical circumstances she'd give Bruce preferential treatment. To take the example raised earlier, yes, I think if a legal and open court sentenced Hulk to be exiled from Earth, Jen would abide by that decision. She loves her cousin dearly, but I don't think she's under any illusions that as well as being a noble and kind man, he's also a destructive monster. She-Hulk herself is far more in control of herself than Hulk is, but she still obviously takes her powers and their consequences very seriously - on returning from Skardon with increased strength she made a beeline to Reed Richards for help just because she damaged a taxi and some pavement. She gets good marks on personal responsibility - I don't think she'd ignore the fact that Hulk is a dangerous force.

Whether he's so dangerous that he needs to be exiled - that's for our hypothetical court to decide, and perhaps he is and perhaps he isn't. But if it was fairly found that he was, I have no doubt Jen would let the sentence be carried out.

As for the upcoming She-Hulk Smash SHIELD thing, we don't know exactly what she's learned, or even why she's going after Tony. Because he shot Hulk into space without a fair hearing? Because he shot Hulk into space and didn't pay attention to where he landed (which is now known to Tony and Reed, and perhaps others too)? Because (as suggested in the She-Hulk #15 review thread) they're duping She-Hulk into going after Hulk villains not so much because they're causing chaos, but because Tony wants to have a stable of nano-controlled Hulk-level villains in the event that Hulk returns? Any of those options is more damning than anything Jen has done in legally registering superheroes, so until we see what happens, I don't see any strong reason to suppose Jen is acting hypocritically just for her cousin's sake.

[XPac]

I don't think it's fair to call She-Hulk a hypocrite over this. It's only natural that she'd feel more for her cousin than for some random stranger - that's simply human - but I don't think we've yet seen that in identical circumstances she'd give Bruce preferential treatment. To take the example raised earlier, yes, I think if a legal and open court sentenced Hulk to be exiled from Earth, Jen would abide by that decision. She loves her cousin dearly, but I don't think she's under any illusions that as well as being a noble and kind man, he's also a destructive monster. She-Hulk herself is far more in control of herself than Hulk is, but she still obviously takes her powers and their consequences very seriously - on returning from Skardon with increased strength she made a beeline to Reed Richards for help just because she damaged a taxi and some pavement. She gets good marks on personal responsibility - I don't think she'd ignore the fact that Hulk is a dangerous force.

Whether he's so dangerous that he needs to be exiled - that's for our hypothetical court to decide, and perhaps he is and perhaps he isn't. But if it was fairly found that he was, I have no doubt Jen would let the sentence be carried out.

As for the upcoming She-Hulk Smash SHIELD thing, we don't know exactly what she's learned, or even why she's going after Tony. Because he shot Hulk into space without a fair hearing? Because he shot Hulk into space and didn't pay attention to where he landed (which is now known to Tony and Reed, and perhaps others too)? Because (as suggested in the She-Hulk #15 review thread) they're duping She-Hulk into going after Hulk villains not so much because they're causing chaos, but because Tony wants to have a stable of nano-controlled Hulk-level villains in the event that Hulk returns? Any of those options is more damning than anything Jen has done in legally registering superheroes, so until we see what happens, I don't see any strong reason to suppose Jen is acting hypocritically just for her cousin's sake.


But truthfylly at this point I don't think they'd even need to worry about putting Hulk on trial and allowing a court to decide anything.

If Hulk sets foot on US soil, he'll likely be considered an unregistered combatant. That means he has no rights. Tony can launch him into space or into the negative zone to his hearts content and it would be completely legal (at least until a court overturns the registration). I wonder how Jen would feel about that. Bruce wouldn't get due process... but because of the law that Jen herself argues is constitutional, he doesn't have the right to due process.

[IamtheRock3]

well I always assume Jen (Right or wrong) that the unregistered guys will get a trial

[Berkey]

all I can say is I thought she was gonna have a bigger part in the warmaybe even switch sides after the Hulk thing and when the questioned her when speedball blew up in the ambulance I thought she'd see that SHEILD might not be all that it is cracked up to be

[Kevinroc]

But truthfylly at this point I don't think they'd even need to worry about putting Hulk on trial and allowing a court to decide anything.

If Hulk sets foot on US soil, he'll likely be considered an unregistered combatant. That means he has no rights. Tony can launch him into space or into the negative zone to his hearts content and it would be completely legal (at least until a court overturns the registration). I wonder how Jen would feel about that. Bruce wouldn't get due process... but because of the law that Jen herself argues is constitutional, he doesn't have the right to due process.

Wasn't Jen actually trying to get a trial for Speedball/ Penance?

But regardless, Bruce Banner was removed from the equation before the registration act became law. And Jen finds out before Bruce comes back to Earth.

[XPac]

Wasn't Jen actually trying to get a trial for Speedball/ Penance?

But regardless, Bruce Banner was removed from the equation before the registration act became law. And Jen finds out before Bruce comes back to Earth.

Definately... and I'm sure she'd try to get a trial for Bruce. My point is simply that because of the Registration that Jen believes is constitutional, they don't necessarily need to give Hulk or anyone else due process. That's not to say they can't or won't... merely that they don't have a legal obvigation to do so.

At this point in time, they can probably do whatever the hell they want with the Hulk. Or they can at least TRY to.

[Kevinroc]

Definately... and I'm sure she'd try to get a trial for Bruce. My point is simply that because of the Registration that Jen believes is constitutional, they don't necessarily need to give Hulk or anyone else due process. That's not to say they can't or won't... merely that they don't have a legal obvigation to do so.

At this point in time, they can probably do whatever the hell they want with the Hulk. Or they can at least TRY to.

Except that Bruce was removed before the registration act became law. And she finds out before Bruce comes back to Earth.

The Illuminati asked Hulk for help and then tossed him out like a piece of garbage.

Unregistered heroes like Luke Cage knew the risk involved with not registering. They knew they were in for a fight.

So the circumstances were different.

[XPac]

Except that Bruce was removed before the registration act became law. And she finds out before Bruce comes back to Earth.

The Illuminati asked Hulk for help and then tossed him out like a piece of garbage.

Unregistered heroes like Luke Cage knew the risk involved with not registering. They knew they were in for a fight.

So the circumstances were different.

I'm not saying the circumstances aren't different... I'm just saying that ultimately that won't matter. Hulk steps foot on US soil, they can legally do whatever they hell they want with him. And Jen can either side against SHIELD and the law and protect her cousin, or she can play the role of the good pro-regger and let it happen.

[Will.S]

But truthfylly at this point I don't think they'd even need to worry about putting Hulk on trial and allowing a court to decide anything.

If Hulk sets foot on US soil, he'll likely be considered an unregistered combatant. That means he has no rights. Tony can launch him into space or into the negative zone to his hearts content and it would be completely legal (at least until a court overturns the registration). I wonder how Jen would feel about that. Bruce wouldn't get due process... but because of the law that Jen herself argues is constitutional, he doesn't have the right to due process.
It sucks how he was an outsider then and an outsider now. Except now he'd have more support from the anti-registration people like the NA (minus Strange).

As for She-Hulk, while while she was a staunch supporter of the act there will undoubtedly be things that will continue to make her feel more alienated from the SHR community and the Illuminati in particular which will make for a strong case for her to either lash out big time or switch sides.

[XPac]

It sucks how he was an outsider then and an outsider now. Except now he'd have more support from the anti-registration people like the NA (minus Strange).

As for She-Hulk, while while she was a staunch supporter of the act there will undoubtedly be things that will continue to make her feel more alienated from the SHR community and the Illuminati in particular which will make for a strong case for her to either lash out big time or switch sides.

Yeah... for Hulk I suppose the registration really won't change much. He's still being hunted down by the military and SHIELD. The only difference is now SHIELD has an army of heroes to back it up... which is probably fine with the Hulk since he probably has a big issue with a lot of those heroes.

For the antis, I guess they're kind of learning first hand what it's like to be Hulk everyday of your life.

[Kevinroc]

I'm not saying the circumstances aren't different... I'm just saying that ultimately that won't matter. Hulk steps foot on US soil, they can legally do whatever they hell they want with him. And Jen can either side against SHIELD and the law and protect her cousin, or she can play the role of the good pro-regger and let it happen.

Actually, the circumstances do matter. This thread is asking if Jen is a hypocrite for turning against Iron Man after she finds out what happened to her cousin.

[XPac]

Actually, the circumstances do matter. This thread is asking if Jen is a hypocrite for turning against Iron Man after she finds out what happened to her cousin.

My whole tangent there was in reference to and giving Hulk due process and a trial, not to the initial question of the thread itself about whether or not she's a hypocrite. That's what I was talking about if you reread the inital post you were quoting me on.

But yes, the circumstances behind Tony exiling Hulk the first time do factor into whether you can consider Jen a hypocrite or not. I'll agree with that.

[John Nowak]

Bruce wouldn't get due process... but because of the law that Jen herself argues is constitutional, he doesn't have the right to due process.

Can you tell us where and any of this was stated in one of the comics? I'm not aware of anything which states or implies that the Hulk has lost any of his legal rights.

It's quite credible that he's coinsidered (correctly or not) a dangerous felon and that a cop seeing him will call in everything short of a nuclear strike to kill him, but that's not the same as "losing his right to due process." He can surrender himself any time he chooses.

[IamtheRock3]

Can you tell us where and any of this was stated in one of the comics? I'm not aware of anything which states or implies that the Hulk has lost any of his legal rights.

It's quite credible that he's coinsidered (correctly or not) a dangerous felon and that a cop seeing him will call in everything short of a nuclear strike to kill him, but that's not the same as "losing his right to due process." He can surrender himself any time he chooses.

Think he refering to the unreg heroes

[XPac]

Can you tell us where and any of this was stated in one of the comics? I'm not aware of anything which states or implies that the Hulk has lost any of his legal rights.



Read Frontline.

[Xanrn]

Bah the Hulk is garbage and should have been thrown into the Sun not a Wormhole.

I have never believe that ridiculus rubbish of him not killing anyone, its crap. IF all he did was property damage they would leave him alone.

Ultimate Hulk has in 2 limited series shown to be a better handling, started of a Villian and then Banner actually did something instead of being a whiny pussy with no will and got control.

616 Hulk is just a Villian and the heroes have every right to get rid of him.

Also why is this being heaped on the 4 Illmunati's shoulders? Did you not notice SHIELD and where there is SHIELD there is probably a US/UN backing. Maria Hill was in charge at the time, she can't go for a pee without having the President sign off on it.

It wasn't a illegal act by the 4 Illmunati, is was most likely signed off on my the US President...

How were they ment to give a Trial?

Judge: You are charged with blah blah blah, how do you plead?
Hulk: HULK SMASH PUNY JUDGE!

World Crap Hulk will go Hulk comes back, kicks arse and then gets Utlimate Nulified or something.

Or Taken out by the Sentry and whoever is coming back in the Return who can apparantly take a Sentry who has lost it.

[ivesaidway2much]

I don't think She-hulk would be a hypocrite if she changed her mind about registration. Perhaps, it would just take seeing the injustice dealt to someone as close to her as her cousin for her to realize how totally illegal the SHRA is.

Bah the Hulk is garbage and should have been thrown into the Sun not a Wormhole.

Throwing the Hulk into the sun would be suicidal for anyone on Earth. It's well documented that the Hulk absorbs radiation. Even at the speed of light it takes 8.5 minutes to reach the sun from Earth. After the Hulk passed the ionosphere he would be exposed to enough radiation to make a nuclear explosion look about as radioactive as a hand towel. Given the Hulk's capacity for limitless strength by the time he reached the sun, he would likely bounce right off it and hit the Earth with enough force to destroy the solar system. And throwing the Hulk into the sun would probably make him pretty mad, too. So, needless to say, throwing the Hulk into the sun is a really bad idea.

[Kevinroc]

Bah the Hulk is garbage and should have been thrown into the Sun not a Wormhole.

That would be murder. Do you really wanna go down that road?

I have never believe that ridiculus rubbish of him not killing anyone, its crap. IF all he did was property damage they would leave him alone.

Yes, because you wouldn't want to stop property damage if you could.

Ultimate Hulk has in 2 limited series shown to be a better handling, started of a Villian and then Banner actually did something instead of being a whiny pussy with no will and got control.

Ultimate Hulk is not the same as the Mainstream Marvel Universe Hulk.

616 Hulk is just a Villian and the heroes have every right to get rid of him.

One of the founding members of The Avengers, one of the founding members of The Defenders, someone who has saved the Earth on more than one occasion.

The Savage Hulk (the one that says "HULK SMASH!" all the time) was the only member of The Defenders that did not turn evil when they were cursed. The Joe Fixit incarnation of Hulk turned rather evil. The Professor incarnation of Hulk turned evil. Namor turned evil. Dr. Strange turned evil. The Silver Surfer turned evil. Who didn't turn evil? The Savage Hulk.

Also why is this being heaped on the 4 Illmunati's shoulders? Did you not notice SHIELD and where there is SHIELD there is probably a US/UN backing. Maria Hill was in charge at the time, she can't go for a pee without having the President sign off on it.

It wasn't a illegal act by the 4 Illmunati, is was most likely signed off on my the US President...

No comic has ever said anything about the president signing off on this. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. But people don't say anything because no comic has said anything.

For the record, SHIELD has done things that the president has not signed off on before.

How were they ment to give a Trial?

Judge: You are charged with blah blah blah, how do you plead?
Hulk: HULK SMASH PUNY JUDGE!

World Crap Hulk will go Hulk comes back, kicks arse and then gets Utlimate Nulified or something.

Or Taken out by the Sentry and whoever is coming back in the Return who can apparantly take a Sentry who has lost it.

"I have hostility, yes. But wouldn't you, if the world were constantly assaulting you? Think how actors respond just from having cameras shoved in their faces. I get fists, guns -- everything. Maybe I'm a trouble magnet. I don't know. But I'm acting in self-defense, and you'd penalize me for it." (Marvel Comics Special: "The Savage Hulk.")

[IamtheRock3]

to be fair savage Hulk has destroyed stuff without the Army prompting before

[Kevinroc]

to be fair savage Hulk has destroyed stuff without the Army prompting before

Hulk's certainly proven to be a threat before. But this "The Hulk is nothing more than a villain" attitude showcases a distanct lack of knowledge of the character.

[IamtheRock3]

Hulk's certainly proven to be a threat before. But this "The Hulk is nothing more than a villain" attitude showcases a distanct lack of knowledge of the character.

Does that changes if people correct about the recon

That he has been killing people in his rampages

[Kevinroc]

Does that changes if people correct about the recon

That he has been killing people in his rampages

Except Marvel is taking on an attitude of... "Well, maybe he did... Maybe he didn't..."

IE, Marvel's current answer towards Hulk killing people in his rampages is that it is ambiguous.

[Vaal]

Does that changes if people correct about the recon

That he has been killing people in his rampages

Not really. At worst, he's committing neglegent homocide as he's not intending to kill people. A villain makes a choice to kill people.

[ivesaidway2much]

Not really. At worst, he's committing neglegent homocide as he's not intending to kill people. A villain makes a choice to kill people.I don't see how it's not at least second degree murder. The Hulk gets really mad and he destroys buildings with people inside. Not once, but many, many times over 13 years in Marvel time. Once is a mistake, but a hundred times is just plain evil. It's not like Savage hulk is a drooling moron. He's demonstrated on numerous occasions his knowledge of the difference between right and wrong and the difference between life and death. In the U.S., I'm pretty sure that would make him rational enough to stand trial for murder.

[IamtheRock3]

yea that why I am glad they stick with an ambigious answer

Cause if Hulk kills that many people then Bruce Banner a villan. He has been shown to hide and be on the run


The right thing would be to lock himself up and turn himself in. If that doesnt work Lock himself up every time his alter ego escape

I mean I know If I went on a Rampage every time I got mad and killed some poor smuck, I would hate myself for it and turn myself in

[StoneGold]

If anyone can get off on an insanity plea, it's the guy with the MPD case so bad, he literally turns into other people.

[Berkey]

It would be cool to see hulk come back and be totally in control of his emotions if he gets pissed his kicks someones ass, not rampage. I'm a huge hulk fan and I have a bad feeling that at the end of the WWH something stuipid is going to happen either magic and wiping his mind or he goes back to planet hulk and dosent interact with the rest of the Marvel heroes which would make me really upset. Also where the hell is Ultimate Hulk vs Wolverine thats the real loss here

[Pendaran]

yea that why I am glad they stick with an ambigious answer

Cause if Hulk kills that many people then Bruce Banner a villan. He has been shown to hide and be on the run


The right thing would be to lock himself up and turn himself in. If that doesnt work Lock himself up every time his alter ego escape

I mean I know If I went on a Rampage every time I got mad and killed some poor smuck, I would hate myself for it and turn myself in

It wasn't really particularly ambiguous in Illuminati, it was pretty explicit. Down to things like "innocent people die because the Hulk walks the earth", with no disagreements to that or other statements on the Hulk and death from even the guys there who'd spent the most time with the guy, like Namor. With a notation of it being a regular enough occurance where they'll go "how many this time." That's basically.. pretty far away from ambiguous without typical internet fan reaching to try and grasp for something that allows for personal world view maintenance.

The whole "ambiguity" mostly comes from writer interviews where they try to step on each other's points of view on the issue, without actually stepping on each other's points of view on the issue. The closest anyone has come to contradicting Bendis' take on the matter in an actual comic is Clay Quartermain saying that when he leads a Hulkbuster mission, there are no casualties because he successfully evacuates the area. Which is ironically really just saying "there aren't casualties during this one particular set of events, for reasons that have nothing to do with the Hulk himself caring one way or another", but that's a total side thing. That doesn't really read as ambiguous so much as trying to nail down what they can to support their own take on the matter, in whatever way they get room to do.

Which is a side and amusing comment on Marvel writer interelations as ties into what writer likes what character that I found way more funny when Ennis would have Wolverine look like a joke in the Punisher, and the then writer of Wolverine would retaliate shortly after by suggesting the Punisher is gay.

I think what particularly gets me on this is the dichotomy of people who go on and on about the revenge the Hulk should take for the "bad" things done to him by the Illuminati as part of their shifts in characterization around Civil War. That those actions themselves, and the things they're doing in Civil War, should entirely stand and aren't out there, because they're "realistic" based on the characters involved, and logical viewings of actions in their context and the world around them and whichever. Yes, fine, then that logic applies to the Hulk's rampages having a death toll from the damage they cause. That's entirely realistic too, and thus an entirely valid issue behind things like, say, efforts to get rid of the Hulk.

As for why Bruce don't turn himself in.. honestly, what's the point? It's not like the Hulk wouldn't eventually come out again and bust out of wherever. Practically everything has been tried to kill or remove the Hulk, even by Bruce himself. To a point where Peter David had a take where even suicide wouldn't work, it would just trigger a transformation. He can be beaten, flat out killed, sent away, destroyed with another gamma bomb in the case of the Maestro, but he comes back anyway. Bruce would know this, and it's part of why Bruce does hate himself. It's why the character is, y'know, tragic. He's essentially and ultimately powerless before his own darker self.

That kind of thing is why Reed himself noted that maybe nothing can be done but accept that it's like a hurricaine, part of the "natural order", people are just going to die in the wake of it.

As for She Hulk.. eh. I don't know that I really buy the "Jen believes 100% in the rule of law" thing, she's not Judge Dredd, it verges on saying that so long as something is legal, regardless of what it is, she'd be okay with it. It would be somewhat hypocritical for her to be okay with people being held indefinitely without trial in another, crazy making dimension where they don't get surgery for their injuries, and hell, aiding in people being carted off to the Negative Zone. To be on the side where she knows Capekillers and the rest try to specifically lure out heroes by making it look like they need to stop a crime, then trying to grab the non registered superheroes that so come to stop it and basically exile them to another dimension, but to be all uppity about what happened with the Hulk, assuming she does get all uppity about it. The paralells are not insignificant between either situation. It's kind of flimsy in the face of said paralells to say "yes, but I was fine with all of that because Congress supported it!" I mean, what can she say? Well, the pro reg movement and the things it does must be supported because without it there'll be another Stamford and people will die and people have died and etc, etc. etc. Which, if you actually believe that's true, which she seems to, well sure. But hey, it's been established with the Hulk that people have died, likely will die, and etc. etc. etc. Even to the point where it involves less thorny hypotheticals and sweeping generalizations than "there'll be another Stamford". So as far as dodging hypocrisy in terms of the kinds of actions and viewpoints she gives her support to, sure, Jen is on really shaky ground.

But hey, Jen's a person. Most people are hypocrites at some point or another in their lives. That's just being people. Jen isn't especially personally invested in the heroes getting shipped off and whatever. Jen /is/ personally invested in her cousin. It would only make sense for her to have a, you know, personalized viewpoint on people messing with a relative, regardless of the moral whateveris issues.

[sixela]

But hey, Jen's a person. Most people are hypocrites at some point or another in their lives. That's just being people. Jen isn't especially personally invested in the heroes getting shipped off and whatever. Jen /is/ personally invested in her cousin. It would only make sense for her to have a, you know, personalized viewpoint on people messing with a relative, regardless of the moral whateveris issues.

How close is Jen to Bruce anyways???

I know they are cousins, but while he has been on earth throughout all his troubles I can't remember a single time she has really gone out of her way to help him out.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but THAT is what makes her a hypocrite.

I'd still pay money to see her kick Ironman's ass though..:p

[Pendaran]

The original poster's question was whether or not she'd be a hypocrite to support everything the pro reg movement has done, but have problems with what happened with the Hulk. It's looking to be a question with a sizable chunk of belief behind either answer.

As for their closeness? Well, Bruce/the Hulk seem pretty fond of her, testifying and tossing threats around at her TVA trial as the merged Hulk, Hulking out to get her to the hospital for an appendectomy, and her whole origin coming of getting a vital blood transfusion from him, though there's a couple of times where he's tried to smash her like he would anyone else.

Admittedly Jen hasn't done especially much for him in the grand scheme of things, no. But that really doesn't preclude feeling personally invested in the guy, it just means she hasn't done much about it. And sure, that could be raised for a "what, you're doing stuff now?", if she does stuff, especially in light of her Civil War actions.

[Rf2j]

Silly, isn't it? I mean, if due process and the law were important to Jan, you'd think she'd be a lawyer or something.

Wouldn't that fall under "cruel and unusual punishment"?

[John Nowak]

Read Frontline.

Quote Frontline.

Seriously, in other threads you've made references to things which never happened in the comic; I'm going to want to see a direct quote or scan before I believe this ever happened.

[John Nowak]

The right thing would be to lock himself up and turn himself in. If that doesnt work Lock himself up every time his alter ego escape

I think that sums it up pretty nicely -- if he's killing people as the Hulk, then the only right thing for him to do as Banner is to spend every waking moment turning himself in. "You need to send me to Mars, Richards. Or the Negative Zone. Or fence off a National Park and drop me in the middle."

It doesn't have to work. In fact, if it does, then the story's over, but that's beside the point.

If the Hulk doesn't kill but people are convinced he does, then the "Man on the run" dynamic works without making Banner a pretty slimy individual.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

Quote Frontline.
I believe the part Xpac is referring to (correct me if I'm wrong) is in Front Line #2: Robbie meets some guv'mint guy who lays out his options (register or be imprisoned), demands to see his lawyer and protests that he's a citizen and has rights, and guv'mint guy says "You're an unregistered combatant, Mister Baldwin. I define your rights."

In any case, I personally take anything Front Line says with a grain of salt - though I enjoy the quality of writing (most of the time), over the course of the book it's become very plain that Jenkins is pushing a metaphor with regard to terrorism/Dubya/War On Terror, rather than simply telling a Civil War story and letting the parallels speak for themselves. In short, Front Line (especially its 'The Accused' arc) isn't the same reality as Civil War - it's a Guantanamo-ised Civil War, where CW parallels our world much more closely than is evident in other titles. You only have to look at issues like treatment of prisoners - ye gods, the 42 facility, which in Front Line features dirt floors and wire mesh cages - to see that Front Line is putting consistency with Civil War second to preaching its message. As such, any fact given in Front Line should be regarded as suspect - possibly useful to a debate, but not invariably correct - until and unless it's confirmed in some other title that's shown more concern for cross-book continuity.

[Pendaran]

I haven't seen where Frontline has been noted as out of continuity, there's at best been a "the prison shown there was shown before it was completed". Don't really see any reason to ignore it. You also can't really call Battlestar floundering in a cell with shrapnel in his back for a while anything but, well, that.

In short, Front Line (especially its 'The Accused' arc) isn't the same reality as Civil War - it's a Guantanamo-ised Civil War, where CW parallels our world much more closely than is evident in other titles.

Frontline is where major plots and characters affecting what's to come next out of Civil War are coming from, which other comics have referred to, that puts it rather squarely as being in the same reality as anything else.

As such, any fact given in Front Line should be regarded as suspect - possibly useful to a debate, but not invariably correct - until and unless it's confirmed in some other title that's shown more concern for cross-book continuity.

Unless you can find me where Marvel publishing notes that Frontline takes place in an alternate reality, that's kinda your opinion on the matter. It also assumes any book Marvel puts out lately has a particular care for continuity or makes particular use of it, in terms of this being a measuring stick for deciding what from that book is valid or not. Which is seriously going to mean most of what Marvel puts out these days, including a bunch of recent Hulk stuff, a lot of their Civil War stuff, a great big pile of Spider Man and FF issues, and certainly almost every single thing that graces the pages of Black Panther, is not particularly invariably correct or what have you. Most comics Marvel currently puts out play very fast and loose with continuity, from small ways to big. Frontline's there, it happens. Marvel has yet to say "it doesn't count".

[Xanrn]

So Hulk is not a Villian?

What you think he is right to come back and smash up the World in revenge for sending him off into space for smashing stuff up in the first place?

Have you seen the Promo poster for World War Hulk? The Hulk standing over the bodies of Illmunati.

Hardly the actions of a hero.

When Hulk comes back and starts killing/crippling Super-heroes, he'll be a Hero will he?

1st it was the 4 Secret Brain Trust chaps were who acting illegally, then I point out SHIELD was there, now its SHIELD and the Brain Trusts acting illegaly.

Not actually been paying attention to the SHIELD ongoings lately have we?

You think Maria Hill would honestly do the exact same sort of thing that caused Fury to have to run for the hills?

Maria Hill was made SHIELD Director for the sole reason she was controllable by the President of the US, if you honeslty think she would have done something like boot the Hulk into space without the go ahead from the PoUS if not orders to do it, your not paying attention.

[Pendaran]

1st it was the 4 Secret Brain Trust chaps were who acting illegally, then I point out SHIELD was there, now its SHIELD and the Brain Trusts acting illegaly.

Er.. no. That SHEILD was involved, and sure, they would be, for the Fury LMD to be used, doesn't really make something legal one way or another. Or: See ongoing debates about the Constitution being violated in Civil War.

Maria Hill was made SHIELD Director for the sole reason she was controllable by the President of the US, if you honeslty think she would have done something like boot the Hulk into space without the go ahead from the PoUS if not orders to do it, your not paying attention.

This is at best theoretical, given that no such scene has occured in comics. It's no different than someone else wanting to discount what goes on in Frontline, based on things that have not been said nor exist.

So Hulk is not a Villian?

The Hulk is sometimes a villain, sometimes not. One day he'll tell Thor that unless he does what he wants, he's going to kill innocent hostages, the next he'll go fight Thanos. Another day he'll go on a spite rampage through LA where he tosses around tram cars full of people for giggles, the next he'll let the Flood ripoffs feed off of his arm so that they don't go kill people. Another day he'll laugh as he throws the bodies of his enemies into weapons fire he knows will kill them, while laughing about how everyone's going to die, cause an explosion that gets someone killed and leaves another brain dead, and the next day he'll go into space to dismantle some satelite because he thinks it's a threat to the world. It really depends where the MPD is that day.

He's done some incredibly scummy things, he's similarly also done some heroic ones. He also now has a recent retcon established by Bendis where his rampages leave a death toll in his wake.

So it really depends on if you believe if any of one cancels out the other, in whichever direction. Some people do.

There was a poll recently on the Marvel forum that inquired if people felt the Hulk was hero or monster. It had a pretty equal split.

I figured I'd get that in before some deluge of scans starts.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

Frontline's there, it happens. Marvel has yet to say "it doesn't count".
I didn't say it doesn't count, just that - in light of the biases in the book, which I think go beyond what seems to be the prevailing sentiment of Civil War as a whole - it's not a 100% reliable source of hard data, and if someone in Front Line says that unregistered combatants (i.e. heroes) have no rights, that shouldn't be taken as inviolate truth. Even aside from the possibility that the guy who said it was overstating his case somewhat, which is entirely plausible in itself.

Personally, I can't accept She-Hulk actively recruiting and registering heroes, while being ignorant of the act entirely removing any rights they have. She's a lawyer who's participated before now in mutant registration cases at the highest level, she's not unfamiliar with this kind of law, and I can't believe she'd miss such a huge statement within it. She's not infallible, as we see from her being surprised at being summarily drafted herself, but I don't see that as being a 180 from her expectations - more in the line of her being surprised at the manner in which the law has been enacted. And perhaps the SHRA allows for temporary suspension of some rights, which is open to abuse from unscrupulous enforcers. But a blanket removal of rights the like of which is being talked about, I just don't buy Jen participating in that.

Anyway, so far as it relates to Hulk's case - which is what was being discussed - I do think there'd be a difference between what the Illuminati did, and what would be done to Hulk should he be placed in the government's hands now, with the SHRA in force. Even if, under some provision of the SHRA, Hulk were shot off into space, it'd be as a sentence carried out by the duly elected government. Any number of objections could be raised to it - whether it's a law with appropriate transparentness, checks and balances, and so on - but at the end of the day, it's a process of governing law, and can be supported or fought on that basis. What Tony and co. did to Hulk was simply private citizens enforcing their will on another citizen - there was no legal grounds for what they did (at least, none that I'm aware of), and thus even if the law would have shot Hulk into space, the Illuminati were legally in the wrong (morally, make your arguments). Personally I don't support capital punishment, but I can still see a moral distinction between applying the death penalty and one citizen murdering another who was guilty of a capital offence. It may achieve the same ends, it may even achieve those ends quicker and with less collateral damage, but even if in the end one decides that it was morally right (as perhaps, in some extreme circumstances, it could be), it would still be right in spite of how it was done.

Or to summarise, even in the worst-case scenario, Jen still has a basis to argue that she's not being hypocritical.

[Pendaran]

I didn't say it doesn't count, just that - in light of the biases in the book, which I think go beyond what seems to be the prevailing sentiment of Civil War as a whole - it's not a 100% reliable source of hard data, and if someone in Front Line says that unregistered combatants (i.e. heroes) have no rights, that shouldn't be taken as inviolate truth.

And again, that's your opinion. It's been shown that whatever rights the prisoner get, are at the somewhat arbitrary whim of their jailers, unless you can spot me somewhere where it says "but he's lying".

Personally, I can't accept She-Hulk actively recruiting and registering heroes, while being ignorant of the act entirely removing any rights they have.

I can't accept Reed Richards' involvement with this entire thing, nevermind being one of its leaders, but there he is.

Until I see a scene where she goes "I didn't know that!", I don't she why she wouldn't know full well people are being taken to an extradimensional prison, that I don't personally see a lot of them being taken out of it to be put on trial, and that ontop of such, a fair number of heroes are being caught by luring them out with staged or real crimes, and waiting to pounce on them while they attempt to foil them. A recent effort to catch Captain America and the Punisher that way was /extremely/ public.

And perhaps the SHRA allows for temporary suspension of some rights, which is open to abuse from unscrupulous enforcers. But a blanket removal of rights the like of which is being talked about, I just don't buy Jen participating in that.

She's on the side that had a crazy cyborg Thor clone kill Bill Foster, in a battle where the anti reg heroes were lured to it by lying about how there were dangerous criminals around that needed to be stopped, and is sticking by them anyway, I'd think you'd have more of a problem with that bit. That alone is certainly making her dance the hypocrisy dance if she develops a complex about what's going on with the Hulk.

Hey, is Civil War a bastion of great characterization? I'd be the first to say no. Doesn't mean the people aren't in it, doing what they're doing, and hanging out with who they're hanging out with.

Or to summarise, even in the worst-case scenario, Jen still has a basis to argue that she's not being hypocritical.

An excessively technical one that trucks in "this is all different, because Congress signed off on it." It's otherwise, right down to using danger and crime to lure heroes out, not epically different. Indeed, in many ways, it's worse. The pro reg case requires a lot of sweeping generalizations about what might happen, based off of a single questionable incident. It makes Jen look, again, pretty crappy as far as everything's okay for her as long as it's from the rule of law.

Or, she's okay with the way heroes are being arrested and brought in, she's okay with the murdering cyborg thing, she accepts the validity of that this must all be done to prevent people from dying again, the supervillain neuroshock collar enforcement army, etc. etc. etc. because it happens to be signed off on by Congress, the President, and the like.

But shooting the Hulk into space is bad, because even if it involves the same rationale, and even if recent retcons have established that yes, not simply from one incident, death is a regular thing in his wake, because in that case, Congress didn't sign off on it?

I'd thought she was Jen Walters, not Jen Dredd. It's very flimsy and thin as justifications go to say that she's being consistent because it all comes down to the rule of law for her.

Said another way: I'm a lot more comfortable with Jen as a hypocrite because she's personally involved with some things and not with others, than Jen as someone who can accept a lot of crap with a smile so long as its legal.

Jen accepting what's going on in Civil War from her in comic stated reasons of being motivated by Stamford ("people were sick of 16 year old kids blowing up buildings Reed"), and fearing that otherwise, the government was going to shut down all superheroes.. it's not great, but I can live with that if someone buys the rationale behind Stamford and the purported meaning of it, sure, supporting the pro reg movement makes sense, concern for future deaths and all that. It makes her something of a hypocrite then as far as what's going on with the Hulk, but when something is personal, many to most people stop caring about the big conceptual things they were spouting off about a moment ago. Jen instead fighting the anti reg people for reasons that when boiled down not to make her a hypocrite amount to "well, this stuff is legal"? Eww.

[CMBMOOL]

yea that why I am glad they stick with an ambigious answer

Cause if Hulk kills that many people then Bruce Banner a villan. He has been shown to hide and be on the run


The right thing would be to lock himself up and turn himself in. If that doesnt work Lock himself up every time his alter ego escape

I mean I know If I went on a Rampage every time I got mad and killed some poor smuck, I would hate myself for it and turn myself in


Didn't that occur throughout the "Tales of Astonish" series starring the Hulk ? :confused:

[Pendaran]

Didn't that occur throughout the "Tales of Astonish" series starring the Hulk ?

Not really. For a while people didn't even know that Bruce and the Hulk were the same guy.

[IamtheRock3]

It wasn't really particularly ambiguous in Illuminati, it was pretty explicit. Down to things like "innocent people die because the Hulk walks the earth", with no disagreements to that or other statements on the Hulk and death from even the guys there who'd spent the most time with the guy, like Namor. With a notation of it being a regular enough occurance where they'll go "how many this time." That's basically.. pretty far away from ambiguous without typical internet fan reaching to try and grasp for something that allows for personal world view maintenance.

The whole "ambiguity" mostly comes from writer interviews where they try to step on each other's points of view on the issue, without actually stepping on each other's points of view on the issue. The closest anyone has come to contradicting Bendis' take on the matter in an actual comic is Clay Quartermain saying that when he leads a Hulkbuster mission, there are no casualties because he successfully evacuates the area. Which is ironically really just saying "there aren't casualties during this one particular set of events, for reasons that have nothing to do with the Hulk himself caring one way or another", but that's a total side thing. That doesn't really read as ambiguous so much as trying to nail down what they can to support their own take on the matter, in whatever way they get room to do.

Which is a side and amusing comment on Marvel writer interelations as ties into what writer likes what character that I found way more funny when Ennis would have Wolverine look like a joke in the Punisher, and the then writer of Wolverine would retaliate shortly after by suggesting the Punisher is gay.

I think what particularly gets me on this is the dichotomy of people who go on and on about the revenge the Hulk should take for the "bad" things done to him by the Illuminati as part of their shifts in characterization around Civil War. That those actions themselves, and the things they're doing in Civil War, should entirely stand and aren't out there, because they're "realistic" based on the characters involved, and logical viewings of actions in their context and the world around them and whichever. Yes, fine, then that logic applies to the Hulk's rampages having a death toll from the damage they cause. That's entirely realistic too, and thus an entirely valid issue behind things like, say, efforts to get rid of the Hulk.

As for why Bruce don't turn himself in.. honestly, what's the point? It's not like the Hulk wouldn't eventually come out again and bust out of wherever. Practically everything has been tried to kill or remove the Hulk, even by Bruce himself. To a point where Peter David had a take where even suicide wouldn't work, it would just trigger a transformation. He can be beaten, flat out killed, sent away, destroyed with another gamma bomb in the case of the Maestro, but he comes back anyway. Bruce would know this, and it's part of why Bruce does hate himself. It's why the character is, y'know, tragic. He's essentially and ultimately powerless before his own darker self.

That kind of thing is why Reed himself noted that maybe nothing can be done but accept that it's like a hurricaine, part of the "natural order", people are just going to die in the wake of it.

As for She Hulk.. eh. I don't know that I really buy the "Jen believes 100% in the rule of law" thing, she's not Judge Dredd, it verges on saying that so long as something is legal, regardless of what it is, she'd be okay with it. It would be somewhat hypocritical for her to be okay with people being held indefinitely without trial in another, crazy making dimension where they don't get surgery for their injuries, and hell, aiding in people being carted off to the Negative Zone. To be on the side where she knows Capekillers and the rest try to specifically lure out heroes by making it look like they need to stop a crime, then trying to grab the non registered superheroes that so come to stop it and basically exile them to another dimension, but to be all uppity about what happened with the Hulk, assuming she does get all uppity about it. The paralells are not insignificant between either situation. It's kind of flimsy in the face of said paralells to say "yes, but I was fine with all of that because Congress supported it!" I mean, what can she say? Well, the pro reg movement and the things it does must be supported because without it there'll be another Stamford and people will die and people have died and etc, etc. etc. Which, if you actually believe that's true, which she seems to, well sure. But hey, it's been established with the Hulk that people have died, likely will die, and etc. etc. etc. Even to the point where it involves less thorny hypotheticals and sweeping generalizations than "there'll be another Stamford". So as far as dodging hypocrisy in terms of the kinds of actions and viewpoints she gives her support to, sure, Jen is on really shaky ground.

But hey, Jen's a person. Most people are hypocrites at some point or another in their lives. That's just being people. Jen isn't especially personally invested in the heroes getting shipped off and whatever. Jen /is/ personally invested in her cousin. It would only make sense for her to have a, you know, personalized viewpoint on people messing with a relative, regardless of the moral whateveris issues.


Well had Ask Tom B about it the writer before

here what the coversation went like


"Quote:
Originally Posted by IamtheRock3
After Vegas

Iron man ask how many people died THIS TIME


Are you saying Hulk has killed innocent bystadners, or evil bystanders in his rampages

because She Hulk said he never killed an innocent life during his rampages. Was she mistaken

No, if you go back and look at that ILLUMINATI page, all Iron Man says is, "How many this time?" He never saks how many were killed--these could have been people who were hurt or injured. Or they could, in fact, have been people who were killed, and She-Hulk simply refuses to believe the worst about her cousin.

Tom B"

Also Dan Slott gave interview saying he dont think Hulk killed

[IamtheRock3]

also one more thing

even if his other side able to escape, it can least prevent the killing (again if his is Killing) For a good amount of time via drugs and stuff

if he escapes, try it again

it not just a sense of Apathy "Well I just escape anyway"

He actully evades the cops cause he dont wanted to be arrested

[Pendaran]

So basically Tom is refusing to confirm or deny anything.

That really doesn't mean more than Tom Brevoort refusing to confirm or deny anything.

Has anyone actually asked the guy who wrote it for his take on the matter?

I notice also no one asked Tom about Tony's comment that innocent people die from the Hulk walking the Earth, and that no one in the room, even people with a long familiarity with the Hulk, disagreed with him on that point.

I don't know how it doesn't get more explicit than that as far as Bendis' take on the matter goes. I'm also fairly certain Tom would regardless give an ambiguous answer.

Also Dan Slott gave interview saying he dont think Hulk killed

Yes, and that's why I said this:

The whole "ambiguity" mostly comes from writer interviews where they try to step on each other's points of view on the issue, without actually stepping on each other's points of view on the issue.

Bendis feels the Hulk has. Dan Slott, who had /nothing whatsoever/ to do with the title where the retcon happened, feels that he hasn't.

Tom Brevoort likes to let fan speculation continue.

So..?

also one more thing

even if his other side able to escape, it can least prevent the killing (again if his is Killing) For a good amount of time via drugs and stuff

if he escapes, try it again

it not just a sense of Apathy "Well I just escape anyway"

He actully evades the cops cause he dont wanted to be arrested

One of the things about Illuminati that didn't make me gag was it also bothering to note that Xavier had determined that Banner would kill himself, if he could, as far as making Bruce not reprehsensible in the face of the death stuff.

As far as it goes beyond that, letting himself be arrested is a particularly bad idea if in and of itself that causes him to hulk out again.

His transformations have been triggered by some of the most innocuous things.

More pointedly, Bruce is a human being. No one wants to think their life is without hope, and that they're doomed. I have to imagine it took a while before he would reach the point of becoming suicidal about the state of affairs.

[IamtheRock3]

If Bendis was around I ask Him. I mean tom the main represenative of Cival and one of the people editing this thing. If they wante to not be Ambigious. Tom might of said

"Yea he killed innocent people. END OF STORY"


So took that as a Reconned of a Reconned. But I will ask about the thing in that happen in Illumanati and see

about the not giving up Hope

well most Humans dont cause as many deaths. It be like a Scizo who dont take his pills. Dont think he has every really tried to get Stark and Reed together to make sure he locked up

sorry If Hulk does Kill every time he Rampages then he a Villan plan and simple

[Pendaran]

If Bendis was around I ask Him.

He has a messageboard dude.

So took that as a Reconned of a Reconned.

How is Tom ultimately refusing to answer your question one way or another in a concrete manner a retcon of a retcon? I asked Tom a bunch of questions about the Ebony Blade and the major goofs associated with it, he did almost the exact same "anything is possible" routine. Technically then, that's Tom also disagreeing with Dan Slott's take on the matter, to not go with either. Which is again my point on that different people at Marvel put in different takes, on different things. It doesn't make them not there.


well most Humans dont cause as many deaths. It be like a Scizo who dont take his pills. Dont think he has every really tried to get Stark and Reed together to make sure he locked up

When he knows even the stuff Doctor Strange can do ultimately fails, what are Stark and Reed going to be able to do?

sorry If Hulk does Kill every time he Rampages then he a Villan plan and simple

And if he is..?

[Zero Hunter]

But the Hulk really hasn't been a mindless rampaging monster in a long time EXCEPT when certain writers want to use him that way for no real reason except to have a big Hulk fight like in that stupid Fantasitc Four story recently. The way he has been mainly for the last few years in a cunning angry being who will keep to himself if left alone.

And all this stuff about him killing inconocents in rampages doens't hold water to me. You mean to tell me no one has ever been hurt or killed when Iron Man was fighting someone. Hell Iron Man caused more than a few deaths in his time but has never been held accountable for them. For that matter when ever you have any of the really powerful good guy/bad guy battle roayles going on in the middle of citys you can't tell me there have not been people hurt or killed.

[IamtheRock3]

What messageboard is Bendis on

We dont know if Reed and Strang Ultimate failed cause Hulk never even TRIED to find a way to lock himself up. If it does Fail. Least a few hundres lives may be spared during that time from his rampages.

Wouldn't it be worth it then?


If Hulk a Villan?

Well wouldnt be a big fan of him anymore. May not read his comics. What draws me to the guy is the Fugitive part or man hunted by his demons

This new Reconned basicly makes him a complete Scumbag and totaly hurts that

[Pendaran]

We know Strange banished the Hulk. The Hulk came back. That's basically a failure. Bruce himself knows that even when he caused the Maestro to get nuked by a gamma bomb, the Maestro eventually reformed. In the face of that, what can he really do? It seems like no matter what, the Hulk will somehow find a way to come back. And after years of trying to stop that and failing, maybe it all begins to seem futile.

What messageboard is Bendis on


http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/

[IamtheRock3]

We know Strange banished the Hulk. The Hulk came back. That's basically a failure. Bruce himself knows that even when he caused the Maestro to get nuked by a gamma bomb, the Maestro eventually reformed. In the face of that, what can he really do? It seems like no matter what, the Hulk will somehow find a way to come back. And after years of trying to stop that and failing, maybe it all begins to seem futile.



http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/

First you dont succeed try, try again

Bet while Hulk was banishing there were less rampage, and there for less people killed

isnt those people saved, worth it

I mean batman and Spiderman help send there villans to Jail, knowing they escape again and again but they keep trying

That what heroes do

and did Hulk agree to be Banish

Has bruce EVER took it upound himself to turn himself in, and maybe work with reed or someone to make a jail

He knows them


Sure he tried cures, but he never turn himself in.

Has even did that ONE TIME.

[Pendaran]

But the Hulk really hasn't been a mindless rampaging monster in a long time EXCEPT when certain writers want to use him that way for no real reason except to have a big Hulk fight like in that stupid Fantasitc Four story recently. The way he has been mainly for the last few years in a cunning angry being who will keep to himself if left alone.

And all this stuff about him killing inconocents in rampages doens't hold water to me. You mean to tell me no one has ever been hurt or killed when Iron Man was fighting someone. Hell Iron Man caused more than a few deaths in his time but has never been held accountable for them. For that matter when ever you have any of the really powerful good guy/bad guy battle roayles going on in the middle of citys you can't tell me there have not been people hurt or killed.

And yet, so far, in comics itself, it has only been specified that innocent people have died in the wake of Hulk rampages, probably as simple collateral damage.

I just linked to Bendis' board. I'm sure you can rail about it there too.

It might not hold water with you, but it doesn't change that it's there.

Hey, the entirety of Civil War, and how the characters in it are acting from day one, doesn't hold water with me, but it doesn't change that it's there. I think what bothers me is how accepting people are of "oh look how bad Reed and Tony are acting in X, Y, and Z, and I hope they get their asses kicked, they acting like supervillains", but if the Hulk has any kind of taint like that put on him? Yikes!

Frankly, the shift in, for example, the personalities and actions of the New Warriors, and the taint on them Stamford puts enraged the heck out of me back at the beginning of Civil War. I recall being told by some of the very people that flip out over the Hulk thing and scramble to talk about how vague and ambiguous things are, that Marvel has the lisence to do whatever they want to these characters, and that nothing about anything they do is bad, so long as it tells an entertaining story.

The thread regardless asks the question about She Hulk's hypocrisy, or lack thereof. Part of exploring that has come to involve what the Hulk himself has done or not, and that means having to look at what's there, and not go "I'm not going to consider this, because I don't like that it happened."

[IamtheRock3]

oh just notice the Link

I go ask Bendis later

[Pendaran]

First you dont succeed try, try again

Bet while Hulk was banishing there were less rampage, and there for less people killed

isnt those people saved, worth it

I mean batman and Spiderman help send there villans to Jail, knowing they escape again and again but they keep trying

That what heroes do

and did Hulk agree to be Banish

Has bruce EVER took it upound himself to turn himself in, and maybe work with reed or someone to make a jail

He knows them


Sure he tried cures, but he never turn himself in.

Has even did that ONE TIME.

Bruce Banner is a mentally unstable guy with multiple personalities, an abused childhood, a suicide complex and a ton of neuroses. He once turned himself back into the Hulk because he was jealous that Betty was starting to be into Doc Samson.

You're asking rather a lot of him as far as rational decision making.

[IamtheRock3]

Bruce Banner is a mentally unstable guy with multiple personalities, an abused childhood, a suicide complex and a ton of neuroses. He once turned himself back into the Hulk because he was jealous that Betty was starting to be into Doc Samson.

You're asking rather a lot of him as far as rational decision making.


Yes but Bruce Banner understand the differnce between right and wrong


so he not that Crazy

now granted that Crazy behavoir was bad before but wasnt AS BAD cause Hulk pretty much saved lives, and not took them

He saved countlress of lives, so stuff even out if with it being just property damge

but if it turns out he killing women and children in his rampages, well he pretty much a dirtbag

hate to say it

Like the Hulk

but if that Recons holds up (And will check with bendis)

then he a scum bag and villan. It really no way around it

[Pendaran]

I'm not saying he's especially noble, or that he doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, but when it seems to him (though in the Surfer's case he's somewhat wrong, but all he knows is that the Surfer said he cured him, then he started turning back into the Hulk afterwards anyway) that when Heralds of Galactus can't lastingly cure him, the Sorceror Supreme can't lastingly banish him, he watches his future self eventually recover from /being destroyed down to the atomic level/, he's been shot in the face, and that's only triggered a transformation, when even suicide won't work, when he's died and come back..

It makes him a worn down man.

then he a scum bag and villan. It really no way around it

Both the Hulk and Bruce view themselves as monsters y'know.

so he not that Crazy

Professional psychiatrists with purpoted genius level intellect have diagnosed him as suffering from MPD. That's sane?

He is, in fact, that crazy. One of his personalities is a rampaging monster. As every periodic journey inside his head with his various personalities shows, his head is a bad place to be.

Bruce Banner, as Bruce, is mostly sane, if unstable. Lots of the other things in his head are less stable. Sane people regardless don't have multiple personalities.

[ivesaidway2much]

hate to say it

Like the Hulk

but if that Recons holds up (And will check with bendis)

then he a scum bag and villan. It really no way around it
Which is exactly why the retcons won't hold up. Or why no one in the Illuminati special explicitly stated the Hulk murders/kills innocent people. And why nobody associated with Marvel will now officially say the Hulk is a mass murderer of bystanders.

The Hulk has a movie coming out in the next couple of years. You would actually have to be insane to think Marvel would produce a movie featuring the hero, pyschopathic serial killer Hulk, and his sidekick, genocide enabling Banner. Especially when the majority of his toys, comics, video games, and movies\videos are marketed to children. The response of parental control groups alone would be overwhelming.

When he knows even the stuff Doctor Strange can do ultimately fails, what are Stark and Reed going to be able to do? Well you'd think at the very least they could come up with a plan that doesn't involve the Hulk becoming the emperor of an alien planet with techonology that far outstrips the Earth.

[Pendaran]

Or why no one in the Illuminati special explicitly stated the Hulk murders/kills innocent people.

Quoth Iron Man:

"Innocent people are dying because he walks the Earth."

If that's not people dying in his collateral damage.. *shrug*

[Pendaran]

Oh, and Iron Man has a movie coming out in a year or so. Tony's still building kill crazy Clors, threatening Spiderman with being held indefinitely in the Negative Zone without trial and.. well it's a long list of the horrible crap Tony has done, really.

To be blunt, it's not really like the people who go to see these movies, buy these toys, and what have you, really read these comics.

[Pendaran]

Well you'd think at the very least they could come up with a plan that doesn't involve the Hulk becoming the emperor of an alien planet with techonology that far outstrips the Earth.

I was referring in post to what exactly should Bruce feel they could do that Doctor Strange couldn't, as far as someone asking why Bruce wouldn't just repeatedly turn himself over to them.

THe main thing stupid about the Illuminati plan itself was that one, they know perfectly well by now nothing they do is going to work, and two, even if they feel they have to try anyway, revealing that they have midspaceflight to a guy with massive anger issues and not expecting him to wreck his spaceship, kinda dumb.

[Morw]

Well to be fair to HULK, he never wants to fight. he wants to be left alone. Yes people dies when he gets inot a fight in a city or populated area. And he he knows a trial will will just make B. Banner nervouse ( and guess what happens then) So turning himself in will just add to the list.

I have always seen it as he was a monstered followed by a trail of innocnet death, But even the HULK tries his best to not hurt innocent. Its just not easy since his enemies dont seem to care and the HULK isnt the most intelligent guy around.

To me it just add to the tragidgy of the HULK

[Pendaran]

Notice how it doesn't explicitly state the Hulk kills/murders innocent people. It would be very easy to make that statement completely unambiguous. Why do you think Bendis didn't make it so?

Quoth Iron Man later in the issue, in response to being compared to the Hulk:

"It's not the same thing, and I never killed anyone."

I don't know how more explicit it gets when Tony states this for why he is not like the Hulk.

Why do people have a need to so grasp at straws over this? Is it a crappy sort of retcon? You know what, probably. Does that make it not exist? Not so much.

edit- I mean hey, I'm happy to concede the point if someone can get me Bendis going "despite how my writing clearly reads, I didn't mean that the Hulk's rampages have caused people to die." Until then, I don't see at all how it doesn't read rather explicitly.

First of all, one death pales in comparison to the thousands/millions of people the Hulk would have killed. And at least Iron man has good intentions trying to prevent all superhumans from being exterminated. That's a far cry from killing a hundred people because public transportation is kind of slow.

Why is it really that much better when Tony exiles people to be held without trial in a dimension that is noted for ocassionally making people insane, stages fights that could have gotten, well, a bunch of senators killed had things gone south, plays thusly fast and loose with the lives around him.. it's a long list. How much currency do his good intentions get him, that the Hulk's mental disorders don't get him?

[ivesaidway2much]

Quoth Iron Man later in the issue, in response to being compared to the Hulk:

"It's not the same thing, and I never killed anyone."
Notice how he doesn't explicitly state the Hulk killed/murdered innocent people. Heck, the Hulk kills villains all the time, just ask the Leader. Why do you think Bendis left the statement at all ambiguous?


Why is it really that much better when Tony exiles people to be held without trial in a dimension that is noted for ocassionally making people insane, stages fights that could have gotten, well, a bunch of senators killed had things gone south, plays thusly fast and loose with the lives around him.. it's a long list. How much currency do his good intentions get him, that the Hulk's mental disorders don't get him?Tony, in the hopes of saving all superhumans, is apprehending and perhaps mistreating criminals who broke the law and rebelled against the lawfully elected U.S. government. Hulk is killing hundreds of people because someone looked at him funny. And then Bruce avoids the authorities transports the Hulk to another heavily populated city so he can do it again. Iron man has a Fort Knox worth of currency left compared to the Hulk.

[Pendaran]

Notice how he doesn't explicitly state the Hulk killed/murdered innocent people. Heck, the Hulk kills villains all the time. Why do you think Bendis left the statement at all ambiguous?


I'm sorry, but when Tony begins a meeting with "innocent people are dying because..", no one disagrees with him, he goes on to cap everything that started with his talk with Maria Hill with what boils down to "I'm not like the Hulk, I don't kill people" in specific response to Namor saying he's been out of control too, this reads like nothing but futile, and increasingly desperate grasping at straws to try and isolate every single sentence in the comic from one another, in order to claim what's there, isn't there. You can certainly keep up trying to do so, but I'm not going to find it anything but dubious.

It comes off as basically trying to read every single sentence as separate. What, anywhere, is read like that? Is it Bendis fault for not expecting people to get really rabid about taking every single thing he puts on a page in isolation from itself?

Are you actually claiming that despite Tony starting the meeting that way, he then, what, completely dropped the topic to talk about something not even remotely hinted at?

They talk about the Hulk being out of control and killing people, it's like you don't want a comic so much as Tony turning to the camera and going

"Now just because I've said the topic of conversation is innocent people dying because of the Hulk, in those literal words, and just because I've said that to differentiate me from the Hulk, I didn't kill people when I was out of control, I don't actually mean any of that."

Until you can actually find me where it says that, I'm not going to use the word ambiguous in ways that don't actually hold up with how the comic was written.

It seems silly to go "because it was not said exactly how I wanted it to be said, and even though statements were practically piled on each other, it doesn't count"

But that's me.

Tony has a conversation with Maria Hill about casualties

Tony starts the meeting with:

1) the Hulk's wake is full of dead innocent people
2) No one disagrees with him
3) Namor argues he is the same, Tony responds he is different, because he doesn't kill people.

It doesn't read to me like Bendis left anything ambiguous at all.

But somewhere in there, I'm supposed to take this to mean they've moved on to some discourse about how the Hulk acts like the Punisher.

Even other Marvel writers disagree with you about the ambiguity of this, considering how strongly some of them came out to argue against the idea.

Heck, the Hulk kills villains all the time.

This is wrong by the way, he actually hasn't killed that many villains particularly at all. Perhaps you'd like to argue that's the intended retcon?

The way the book is written, the ambiguity and topic shifts you speak of are simply not plausible, and require a great deal of stretching, pretending that the concept of context doesn't exist, and that every single sentence is said in isolation from the ones that came before it.

[Pendaran]

Seriously man, when the topic is dead innocent people, and Tony goes so far as to say "I don't kill people".. what's not explicit? You keep saying nothing was said explicitly, I quote Tony flat out saying that unlike the Hulk, he doesn't kill, and the best you can do is say "well, they moved on to mean villains."

Heck, the Hulk kills villains all the time, just ask the Leader.

If I asked the Leader and he was feeling objective, he'd acknowledge the time the Hulk tossed his ass into high powered gunfire while laughing is pretty far from "all the time".

By this logic, the Hulk also kills innocent people all the time regardless of the retcon, as this was the same issue where the collateral damage he caused killed an innocent man, by his own tortured admission. As though the Hulk's rampages cause collateral damage that kill innocent people.

I mean, don't get me wrong, the Hulk has certainly tried to kill a lot of people, hero, villain and whatever, while talking about killing them and such. But he is generally speaking prevented or snapped out of it before being able to.

[Pendaran]

By the way, the idea of Hulk rampages leaving people dead, is as old as Peter David, who introduced a plot thread of Doc Samson feeling massive secret guilt for helping to cause the emergence of the mindless Hulk, who according to David, went on rampages that.. left bystanders dead. In not small numbers. Bendis' main change was to make the concept more regular.

David also introduced things like the spy that was part responsible for the Hulk's creation feeling guilt for deaths racked up over the Hulk's career, and the Hulk not disagreeing that this was so. The deaths thing.

[IamtheRock3]

I'm not saying he's especially noble, or that he doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, but when it seems to him (though in the Surfer's case he's somewhat wrong, but all he knows is that the Surfer said he cured him, then he started turning back into the Hulk afterwards anyway) that when Heralds of Galactus can't lastingly cure him, the Sorceror Supreme can't lastingly banish him, he watches his future self eventually recover from /being destroyed down to the atomic level/, he's been shot in the face, and that's only triggered a transformation, when even suicide won't work, when he's died and come back..

It makes him a worn down man.



Both the Hulk and Bruce view themselves as monsters y'know.



Professional psychiatrists with purpoted genius level intellect have diagnosed him as suffering from MPD. That's sane?

He is, in fact, that crazy. One of his personalities is a rampaging monster. As every periodic journey inside his head with his various personalities shows, his head is a bad place to be.

Bruce Banner, as Bruce, is mostly sane, if unstable. Lots of the other things in his head are less stable. Sane people regardless don't have multiple personalities.

More concernt with the banner side. That the person who should least try to turn himself in. Every other time he was banish it been by force

Banner or split cause of the gamma bomb for the most part. Not like he be talking to HARVEY the talking bunny without it. He just held in his emotion to much and the bomn exclated that. He wasnt Scizo. Jen waters was sane and the gamma cause a split to. Still has it somewhat, although her other personality less destructive. But she does have a split personaly but few would call Jen Waters insane.

Same might happen if Batman was hit by the bomb. You have a giant Bat dude roaming the earth

Also there Crazy, where you just nuts

and then there Crazy where you dont undestand the difference between right and wrong

Bruce understand the different. He responble for the decesions he makes. Like not turning himself in


Oh on the Tony side pretty sure he be less evil by the time the movie come around. And even then, Tony aint causing innocent Deaths on a regular basis, Like Hulk apparently cause and will CONTINUE to cause

sorry villan if its sticks

[IamtheRock3]

well cant ask bendis

sense cant register sense his site dont allow email like

Hotmail, yahoo, etc

or any free email stuff

[IamtheRock3]

Well to be fair to HULK, he never wants to fight. he wants to be left alone. Yes people dies when he gets inot a fight in a city or populated area. And he he knows a trial will will just make B. Banner nervouse ( and guess what happens then) So turning himself in will just add to the list.

I have always seen it as he was a monstered followed by a trail of innocnet death, But even the HULK tries his best to not hurt innocent. Its just not easy since his enemies dont seem to care and the HULK isnt the most intelligent guy around.

To me it just add to the tragidgy of the HULK

Thing is it doesnt take a whole lot to push the guy

Sometime just frustration. It not like you have to be standing over Betty burning Corpses to ticked the guy off.

Heck read comics where Hulk just going from city to city cause he upset tossing stuff, or fight

Heck remeber a comic where he wrecked the hollywood sign and went King Kong on a Subway car in the same issue

[ivesaidway2much]

By the way, the idea of Hulk rampages leaving people dead, is as old as Peter David, who introduced a plot thread of Doc Samson feeling massive secret guilt for helping to cause the emergence of the mindless Hulk, who according to David, went on rampages that.. left bystanders dead. In not small numbers. Bendis' main change was to make the concept more regular.

David also introduced things like the spy that was part responsible for the Hulk's creation feeling guilt for deaths racked up over the Hulk's career, and the Hulk not disagreeing that this was so. The deaths thing. I remember hearing about that Samson thing, but i can't remember what issue was that? But anyways there are numerous instances that would imply the oppositie conclusion. The Hulk's presidential pardon, the Punisher instead of trying to kill a drugged Banner using him as a living weapon against heroes he's repeatedly refused to kill, no murder charges in the first trial of the Hulk, the countless times heroes have aided or worked with the Hulk even in non-dire situations, and the numerous characters including members of the fantastic four, avengers, Nick Fury, She-Hulk, Bruce Banner, and Doc Samson himself claiming its unlike the Hulk to kill bystanders in I think the most recent trial of the Hulk.

Heck, the Hulk kills villains all the time, just ask the Leader. You're right that was an overstatement, but the Hulk has killed villains.

[Pendaran]

More concernt with the banner side. That the person who should least try to turn himself in. Every other time he was banish it been by force

Banner or split cause of the gamma bomb for the most part. Not like he be talking to HARVEY the talking bunny without it. He just held in his emotion to much and the bomn exclated that. He wasnt Scizo. Jen waters was sane and the gamma cause a split to. Still has it somewhat, although her other personality less destructive. But she does have a split personaly but few would call Jen Waters insane.

Same might happen if Batman was hit by the bomb. You have a giant Bat dude roaming the earth

Also there Crazy, where you just nuts

and then there Crazy where you dont undestand the difference between right and wrong

Bruce understand the different. He responble for the decesions he makes. Like not turning himself in


Oh on the Tony side pretty sure he be less evil by the time the movie come around. And even then, Tony aint causing innocent Deaths on a regular basis, Like Hulk apparently cause and will CONTINUE to cause

sorry villan if its sticks

Banner actually functionally turned himself into Ross once. And they even went out of their way not to provoke him. Turned into the Hulk anyway.

Not like he be talking to HARVEY the talking bunny without it. He just held in his emotion to much and the bomn exclated that. He wasnt Scizo.

Eh, actually various writers have portrayed him as having the roots of MPD even as a kid, and commentary from the angry persona in his brain. Again, it's actually a by now pretty old retcon that he was an abused child with deep seated psychological issues and repressed memories even into his adulthood.

And regardless, after the bomb, he has in fact during various hypnosis sessions and the like, encountered his various inner personalities, of which there are at least four.

[Pendaran]

I remember hearing about that Samson thing, but i can't remember what issue was that? But anyways there are numerous instances that would imply the oppositie conclusion. The Hulk's presidential pardon, the Punisher instead of trying to kill a drugged Banner using him as a living weapon against heroes he's repeatedly refused to kill, no murder charges in the first trial of the Hulk, the countless times heroes have aided or worked with the Hulk even in non-dire situations, and the numerous characters including members of the fantastic four, avengers, Nick Fury, She-Hulk, Bruce Banner, and Doc Samson himself claiming its unlike the Hulk to kill bystanders in I think the most recent trial of the Hulk.

You're right that was an overstatement, but the Hulk has killed villains.

The Hulk has also killed innocent people as the result of his rampages. In the very same issue he killed the Leader, as I've noted. Again, by this logic, it means he's killed them a lot as well.

The Samson thing was a backup story in a Hulk annual.. 18. This was, as I've said, Samson guilting about having helped to create the Mindless Hulk, who killed a lot of people. This is where writers like Pak for example, take as their personal stance that the Hulk has killed, but only when external forces make him absolutely mindless or insane as extremely rare occurances. Which is another example of the different takes different people at Marvel have on this particular character. It doesn't however make them not exist.

The Hulk's presidential pardon, to note, came about also because at the time, Bruce Banner seemed to have achieved total control over the Hulk. It annoys me that current writers gloss over that, but then again, I've noted to someone else that they shouldn't be using continuity as a basis for what they count and don't from Frontline, considering Marvel constantly ignores the concept of it.

It's also worth noting that in other trials of the Hulk, heroes have instead noted things like not viewing what the Hulk does as his fault, given the rage thing.

Oh, and the Punisher is an arbitrary example of things, considering he's almost whimsical sometimes in who he kills and lets go, and was saving up the Hulk to use as a weapon in case of emergency at that.

Really, they've tried to stop him as much as they've tried to work with him, it varies wildly per hero, and it depends on how the Hulk is being written at the time and by who.

Again, it's a fairly poor quality retcon, but it's still there, various writers do believe in it, some writers were so convinced that's what it was saying that they came out to argue as strongly against the idea as they could, and from the posts from some people on this very thread, a bunch of readers find it entirely plausible.

[ivesaidway2much]

By this logic, the Hulk also kills innocent people all the time regardless of the retcon, as this was the same issue where the collateral damage he caused killed an innocent man, by his own tortured admission. As though the Hulk's rampages cause collateral damage that kill innocent people.
I would hardly call a priest who defrauds a church out all its money and traps people's souls inside of their dead bodies so that they can be resurrected as slaves under the control of a homicidal madman an innocent person.

[IamtheRock3]

Banner actually functionally turned himself into Ross once. And they even went out of their way not to provoke him. Turned into the Hulk anyway.



Eh, actually various writers have portrayed him as having the roots of MPD even as a kid, and commentary from the angry persona in his brain. Again, it's actually a by now pretty old retcon that he was an abused child with deep seated psychological issues and repressed memories even into his adulthood.

And regardless, after the bomb, he has in fact during various hypnosis sessions and the like, encountered his various inner personalities, of which there are at least four.


Then go to the Batman and Spiderman example

There villans keep escaping, heck cause deaths in there escape attempts but they keep trying

Same with Banner turning himself in

I read a LOT of Hulk stuff never really saw himself turn himself in. Not denying that ross example. But saying it rare he does it

[Pendaran]

I would hardly call a priest who defrauds a church out all its money and traps people's souls inside of their dead bodies so that they can be resurrected as slaves under the control of a homicidal madman an innocent person.

Er.. Ross was a zombie because the Leader revived his body before he aquired Soul Man, who other than suffering from some pretty notable delusions, was basically harmless. His powers also worked, considering that Marlo eventually fully came back.

Ironically, though the Leader was lying to him and using him and the entire community, after the Leader's attack, he'd become a benign and caring guy who admitted to his own past sins. He just.. believed the Leader was a good guy, and thought his own powers came from God.

[Pendaran]

Then go to the Batman and Spiderman example

There villans keep escaping, heck cause deaths in there escape attempts but they keep trying

Same with Banner turning himself in

I read a LOT of Hulk stuff never really saw himself turn himself in. Not denying that ross example. But saying it rare he does it

Bruce Banner isn't Batman, or Spiderman. He's a /man/, in an impossible, horrifying situation, who as the years go by, sees every possible solution or avenue of escape /fail/. Even suicide apparently is denied him as an option.

You ask a lot of him.

[IamtheRock3]

Bruce Banner isn't Batman, or Spiderman. He's a /man/, in an impossible, horrifying situation, who as the years go by, sees every possible solution or avenue of escape /fail/. Even suicide apparently is denied him as an option.

You ask a lot of him.

Turn himself in, if that fails, try again

Not askign for much when you KNOW being out will result in deaths

Even if being locked up is Temporary, say a month.

Let say he doesnt rampage that month. Hundreds of lives can be save JUST FROM THAT

isn't it worth it then

[Pendaran]

And if he turns into the Hulk while being incarcerated and kills everyone around him, he's accomplished what? Changed up the location where it happens? Made it worse by making the Hulk /angrier/ for having been trapped?

He knows also that the Hulk reacts even more angrily than normal when in response to being trapped or attempts to "kill" it by Bruce.

[Taniwha]

Is She-Hulk a hypocrite?

Yep. Sure she is. Everyone on the Pro-Reg side has been depicted as a self-righteous hypocritical amoral sack of dog crap, why should Shulkie be any different?

[IamtheRock3]

And if he turns into the Hulk while being incarcerated and kills everyone around him, he's accomplished what? Changed up the location where it happens? Made it worse by making the Hulk /angrier/ for having been trapped?

He knows also that the Hulk reacts even more angrily than normal when in response to being trapped or attempts to "kill" it by Bruce.


Depends on where he puts him

Small Undisclose Jail Cell

Big city

which has more casultires


Hell Regular Jail Cell

BIG city

which has more casultires


Face it when Banner runs from the cops, it cause he doesnt want to go to Jail, not cause he affraid for people in Jail safety

[Pendaran]

You're not really following. If the Hulk is angrier when trapped (which he is) then any rampage he goes on will be longer in duration, and worse in severity. Bruce should risk that why? What's going to happen when the Hulk reaches the city in a mood like that? Big ass rampage. Hell, Bruce himself has desperately noted when people try to bear him down now and then that they're only going to make things worse.

Honestly, if the upcoming World War Hulk has any message, it's that the Hulk has a /huge/ revenge complex against those he feels have tried to wrong or contain him. You're asking Bruce to repeatedly goad that sense of revenge and double dog dare the Hulk to do something about it.

This is why it was even sort of insightful when Reed had that brief moment of helplessness. The Hulk is this monstrous, force of nature and rage. What can any man do about it? Generally nothing but get smashed. To me that's one of the big tragedies and driving forces of the Hulk as a concept. If anything actually worked as a solution, it wouldn't be a tragedy.

I'm not arguing for the nobility of Bruce Banner here, merely that his choices, even vi