Hulk Comics Should Be Good

[Kevinroc]

With the release of the World War Hulk posted by John Romita Jr., I got to wondering what makes a good Hulk story. (The link to the image will be posted at the end of this post.)

Is it the promise of Hulk smashing? Is it Hulk's relationship with Bruce Banner? Hulk's relationship to the world around him?

Obviously all three of these elements are important to a good Hulk story. The struggle of a being that isn't quite a hero and isn't quite a villain.

What are your thoughts on The Hulk? What makes a good Hulk story? What is your favorite incarnation of The Hulk? What have you thought of Planet Hulk and what do you think World War Hulk will bring?

And now, the image.

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3135/wwhqb2.jpg

[yo go re]

got a copy that isn't three screens wide?

[Shellhead]

Maybe this is indicative of when I started reading comics, but I think that good, standard Hulk story involves the following elements:

1. Bruce Banner on the run, or at least wandering far from home. Let's face it, his life would become hell if he ever stayed still for long, what with all the lawsuits, the media attention, and the harassment by the authorities and other heroes.
2. Spends some time in Hulk form, peacefully interacting with others like an innocent and simple-minded child.
3. Gets cornered by random villain/pushy hero/local authorities/government agents/hostile aliens/whatever and is forced to fight. Even better if there is a real threat to people or animals that Hulk encountered while he was peaceful.
4. Hulk smashes, violently and repeatedly.
5. Hulk leaps away from the scene of the carnage, and maybe turns back into Banner.

It worked well for Hulk through the 60's and 70's, even on the tv show, because so many Hulk fans were delighted to see the Hulk unleash and express the anger that they couldn't in their own lives. It was cathartic to watch the big green guy smash traditional authority figures who abused their power.

Subsequent stories involving smart Hulk, mindless Hulk, and gangster Hulk had their own merits, but missed out on that primal rage that so many fans could relate to. Personally, I was a big fan of the Pantheon era when Peter David was writing the Hulk. But I freely admit that those issues didn't often deliver what I enjoyed the most about the Hulk: those towering, gamma-powered tantrums.

[Radical]

Personally, I was a big fan of the Pantheon era when Peter David was writing the Hulk.

I liked the Professor/"Merged" Hulk too. It was probably the closest Banner got to being cured.

But I kind of like when the Hulk isn't smashing things. It kind of throws a wrench in the whole "big angry violent monster" image. :)

[Reptisaurus!]

I'm all for Hulk smash, but Bruce Jone's take on the character was far and away my favorite. I like the THREAT of the Hulk much more than the actual Hulk lumbering around.

[Mike Smash!]

There isn't a specific format that makes a good Hulk story, because the Hulk has a versatility and ability to change status quo regularly in a way that no other iconic superheroic character can match.

Which is why he can be a monster on the run from the military, a member of the Pantheon, the Avengers or the Defenders, he can be a tyrant in the future, a gladiator king on a far off planet, a Las Vegas enforcer, a guardian to the Aborigines, a hero, a villain, kind, cruel, intelligent, childlike, a superhero or a fugitive.

He can be used in over the top action stories, mysteries, comedic stories, quiet tragedies and just about any genre you can name.

And these constant status quo changes aren't an indication of the Hulk's weakness as a character, but in his strength.

Because even when the Hulk is perceived as being as distanced from his classic personna, he's still true to his character concept.

The Incredible Hulk in all of his various forms and incarnations is about duality between man and monster. Between the rational intellect and restraint of a scientist and the primal rage, base instincts and physical strength of a beast.

When Banner became the Merged/Professor Hulk was seemingly cured in the 1990s and believed that man had finally prevailed over the monster and that he now controlled the Hulk's vast power, he was fooling himself and was the last person to realize that he was still in a battle against the Hulk's rage.

Bruce himself was the last person to want to admit it but his friend's all saw it and eventually it came out in destructive ways.

There are other times where the characters' duality and the battle between man and monster play out.

It was direct confrontation between Banner and himself during the Grey Hulk/Vegas era where the tables had been turned. It was the Hulk who had found himself a comfortable life as Joe Fixit and it was his transformations into Banner that threw his life into chaos.

In Planet Hulk, it's the Hulk that's seemingly fought to defeat his transformations into Banner and the story itself revolves around the dual nature of the Hulk as both an epic hero and a destroyer of everything he touches.

The foundation of any good Hulk story comes from this basic premise: the conflict between two sides of human nature: the intellect and the beast.

[stealthwise]

I'm all for Hulk smash, but Bruce Jone's take on the character was far and away my favorite. I like the THREAT of the Hulk much more than the actual Hulk lumbering around.

Jones's take would have worked better had it made any actual sense. The "threat" of the Hulk, with the monster only emerging at key moments, only works if you're actually anticipating the transformation as an ominous event. With the Hulk appearing in literally hundreds of stories previously where this wasn't the case, the approach itself fell apart pretty quickly in my eyes.

Jones also had the tendency to write completely nonsensical plots, but I won't get into that right now.

[Mikl C]

I was reading Peter David's Hulk today. It's the only Hulk I've enjoyed.

[Brian Cronin]

I guess I would say the best Hulk stories, in my mind, are the ones that pretty closely resemble the television series.

I think the "Fugitive" formula is a strong one, for a good writer.

-Brian

[Omar Karindu]

For me, the biggest mistake made by a lot of readers -- and, subsequently, writers -- with the Hulk has been to try and overwrite the Hulk with the Jekyll and Hyde material that they think (somewhat rightly) was the character's original concept.

What this misses, really, is how rapidly the Hulk's concept in the early days needed to be recoded as the James Whale take on Frankenstein('s monster), the confused and angry child in a world he doesn't quite understand, not least of all because that world is out to destroy him. Sure, he rampaged around for awhile before Lee and Ditko worked out the "dumb Hulk" angle, but let's face it...he was a villain in those stories.

The better Hulk tales manage to understand this at some level. Peter David, in Hulk: The End actually managed to demonstrate that the two takes weren't entirely incompatible.

The revamp in Tales to Astonish worked, because it treated both Banner and the Hulk as the victims of something a bit beyond themselves. It allowed both sides of Banner to be tragic heroes, rather than just having some schmucky scientist with a monster on his back and too little in the way of cajones to commit suicide for everyone else's good.

The original Frankenstein's Monster was no angel, of course, but it would behoove the concept-purists to work out just why James Whale's version caught on in the 20th century and Mary Shelley's more amoral and violent version didn't. Partly this is because Shelley's version is too, for lack of a better term, philosophical. Lord, that monster talks at length!

But partly it's because stories about the other idea, about the creature loosed from conscience and adrift int he world, need to end tragically. Tragedies end, fatally and finally; that's the whole point of the genre. In serial comics, you really never get to do that, unless you're willing to kill your own babies -- Elektra worked this way, Gwen Stacy worked this way, etc. But the Hulk's not getting killed anytime soon, not when his name's on the book's bloody masthead. The raw id is, ultimately, not that interesting a character. The guy who can't keep that id in check, who inevitably winds up letting it out and allowing it to do tremendous damage, is eventually going to lose any reasonable reader's sympathy. Who wants to watch a moral coward fail every month?

But the Hulk really has suffered, IMHO, from readers and writers demanding that he "logically" have caused multiple fatalities, that Bann have loads of blood on his hands, and so forth. At a certain point when that demand is made good, you have a character who only works in the context of the Ultimate Hulk, a character who simply isn't a protagonist of any sort, or who only works in a largely self-contained context.

To the extent that the Bruce Jones Hulk worked, it was early on when the rest of the Marvel Universe wasn't showing up and the inner struggle was the whole book. It was when the Abomination and the bizarrely revamped Absorbing Man and undead Betty began popping in that the plot and the theme got totally lost. ("Super Banner," which seemed like a way to simpyl avoid writing the Hulk while also avoiding the problems of having Banner afraid to use his power even when he needed to, didn't help Jones's plots much either; he used that idea to duck his own hard-won sense of menace.)

Better to have the Hulk as the extremity of Marvel's "misunderstood and misunderstanding" sorts, really. If we want Mary Shelley's Frankenstein Monster at Marvel, we've got the Abomination; if we want a conscienceless id, we've got any of dozens of villains.

[Deep_Sleeper]

I like the idea of Banner being on the move all the time with the HULK emerging to cause huge destruction when something goes wrong.

My favourite HULK story is still Startling Stories: Banner. It's the picture perfect HULK comic, IMO.

[yo go re]

I think the back and forth retcon war that a couple writers at Marvel have going on right now, about whether or not Hulk is a killer, is exceedingly silly. So much so, in fact, that I think the situation deserves its own name and entry in the comicbook dictionary here on CSBG...

[stealthwise]

I like the idea of Banner being on the move all the time with the HULK emerging to cause huge destruction when something goes wrong.

My favourite HULK story is still Startling Stories: Banner. It's the picture perfect HULK comic, IMO.

Banner works very well as a completely out of character/out of continuity story. I can see why long-time fans would hate it though.

[Pendaran]

I think the problem of the Hulk and the related writing is the same problem of any long term character with anti heroic elements. Different writers are going to play them up far differently. This isn't a recent thing, and as a result, you're going to have readers from different points of the character's history expecting completely different things, simply from what they're familliar with as being "true" to the character. Considering the regularly alternating frequency of such, none of them have really been all that more successful than another.

With the Hulk for example, the guy who's considered to have the longest and most successful run writing him is the guy who firmly established that the Mindless Hulk killed any number of innocent bystanders in his rampages, and had the Professor Hulk do things like go on a rampage where he'd throw villains into high powered gunfire, leave Marlo braindead for a while and the largely innocent Soul Man dead as collateral damage. Peter David played pretty indepth with the whole Man/Monster dichotomy and went all philosophical with it. That being the run I practically grew up with for the sheer length of it, it's the one that greatly defines my own expectations for the character. I find it interesting that there wasn't much uproar at all over when David did stuff like that, or that it doesn't really come up much in these discussion, but then again, it could be argued that while the market has shrunk, the character is more prominent to fan attention, especially with an upcoming crossover, so there's more scrutiny.

Then again, considering the jeopardy the title was in by the end of his run in terms of sales and the like, it could certainly be argued that David ultimately nearly killed the character by using him as a vehicle for such things.

Then again, the Bruce Jones run, which went well another way, is argued by some to have nearly killed the character as well.

Still, it's disingenuous to call all of this back and forth between writers only a recent thing.

Writers almost clashing with each other on interpretations of the character is even older than that, one person would have the Hulk as a staunch member of the Defenders during the team's initial, and by today's standards, especially long run. Another would have the Hulk do things like take random pedestrians off the street hostage and threaten to literally tear them apart unless Thor tosses his hammer away, and yet this is considered a "classic" fight for both Thor and the Hulk as far as being flat out defining for both. The issue it happened in was a popular one. Another writer would have the Hulk run around with warcries like "Hulk kill!" and have him stopped only by external intervention. Another would have him help found the Avengers.

This all goes back through the 80s to the 60s, and makes for there not really being any kind of consistent take on the character. He's had whole runs of heroism and villainy alike. The best Marvel can really do is talk about how it's all part of the "ambiguity of the character". This recent thing with Bendis, Slott and Pak isn't really new, I think it gets the attention it is because it involves writers Marvel is actively trying to push to having a high profile, and it has an upcoming crossover that basically centers around it. But the issues at the center of it are really, really old.

But really, that's what happens when you make a character who's theme involves the word "monster" and have him last for some 30+ years. There's going to be long stretches of a lot of different writing, and it will spawn a lot of readers with varying views on what worked and didn't.

Still, that's ultimately no different than, to use another example, the Punisher. He started as a Spider man villain, he was kept as at least an anti hero, and yet over the many years of his character, he was everything from Night Thrasher's respected mentor, teaming up with Spiderman, him, Moon Knight and Nova to take down the Secret Empire, to a looney toon who fired guns at jaywalkers.

It's even no different from Elric of Melnibone, who once Michael Moorcock opened up the character as usable for various short story anthologies by other writers, you got /wildly/ different takes based on what they thought was "true" about the character.

Fiction handles heroes fairly easily between multiple writers, you don't have to do much more than keep that one trait in mind, "heroic". Fiction handles antiheroes with extreme difficulty if they pass from one writer to the next. Every writer that approaches the Hulk is doing so while deciding "what's a monster?" and if they're even going to touch that issue at all, or ignore it completely.

Myself, I wouldn't really call the writers who've explored the darker parts of the Hulk at fault for anything especially bad or wrong. Those writers have produced some of the more popular and memorable comics the Hulk has been in. I wouldn't want to see that take on the character dominate, but decades of Hulk comics have shown that it won't anyway. Whatever writers come after Bendis, Pak, Slott, et al will likely do nothing different but continue the cycles the character goes through as he changes hands. There seems to be enough of an audience for the various reads of the character (except for Bruce Jones', I guess), that it won't do much more than have different groups of readers come and go in waves.

[Reptisaurus!]

Interesting points; It IS strange how there hasn't been one absolutely dominant take on the Hulk akin to the Lee/Kirby Fantastic Four or the Miller Daredevil that serve as the definitive take on the character.

Scott Shaw! said (I paraphrase) that the Hulk and Batman are the two most flexible superheroes in superherodom. (Although I'd say Wonder Woman's proved as flexible as either the Hulk or Batman.*)

But I actually regard this as a strength; there's probably many more different types of Hulk stories you can tell than, say, Spider-man stories or Punisher stories or Avengers stories.




* Not like that. You people are sick.

[the film freak]

As much as I hate Event Books I have to say that World War Hulk picture is awesome.

John Romita Jr. is there anything you can't draw?

[Guitar Hero]

I just got a free copy of that same WWHulk poster at the comic shop, I absolutely love Planet Hulk, and WWHulk looks just great, but i'm kinda worried about what's gonna happen to the series after all is said and done, is he just gonna keep smashing things and running away? Because that would be very repetitive and boring. Here's hoping Big Green stays exciting.

[the film freak]

I just got a free copy of that same WWHulk poster at the comic shop, I absolutely love Planet Hulk, and WWHulk looks just great, but i'm kinda worried about what's gonna happen to the series after all is said and done, is he just gonna keep smashing things and running away? Because that would be very repetitive and boring. Here's hoping Big Green stays exciting.

Well 2008 is an election year so... President Hulk.

[the film freak]

BTW is Planet Hulk any good? I trust your opinion CSBG people. Even Greg Burgas... sometimes.

[Nate Grey]

I liked Peter David's run, and I'm liking Planet Hulk. Didn't care for Jones's version.

I always thought the original concept of the Hulk was: man who made a bomb, BECAME a bomb, with the trigger being anger, not a fuse. I like that. I know most writers interpret that as a Jeckel/Hyde deal, or Frankenstein, but that's how I like Hulk best.

I also like Hulk when he was merged, and the Hulk that's running around on Planet Hulk. I think what I like most about Planet Hulk is that Hulk gets to be who he is with no interference (like from the military, other heroes, etc). He didn't have to hold back. He lived up to his potential. This also made me realize that maybe Hulk is also another version of Conan in a way. A no nonsense destroyer.

This is why I'm worried about the finale of WWH. Will he go back to "misunderstood monster on the run from EVERYONE?" That seems old hat to me, and I wouldn't mind if it never came back. How do you go from being a king, basically back to THAT? The Hulk is meant for something greater and its finally been realized, and I don't want them to go back. I wonder if keeping the on the run dynamic around is out of syntimentality, cause it seems stagnant now. That's why I'm looking forward to the Hulk returning for WWH, this time he's not running, he's CHASING.

I guess I'm just rambling now. lol I want Hulk to keep his two main villains (Leader and Abomination), but lose the military aspect (Ross chasing him). Which I think has happened anyway, but still, I would like it to stay away. I'm not sure what to do with Banner...having him merged with Hulk in someway seems best. I think the only thing they haven't tried is giving Banner some sort of assignment, or project to do, and he gets to walk around all the people who hate him (Ross, Fury, whatever), and they can't touch him cause he has some sort of legal immunity.

Just thinking off the top of my head. No idea with to do with Banner, really. Betty...eh, the grey bald chick from Planet Hulk seems like a better love interest at this point.

Finally, whatever happens, I get the feeling they'll try to have the comic match as closely to the movie (Hulk 2 in 2008) as possible.

[StrikeForce Albert]

Jones's take would have worked better had it made any actual sense. The "threat" of the Hulk, with the monster only emerging at key moments, only works if you're actually anticipating the transformation as an ominous event. With the Hulk appearing in literally hundreds of stories previously where this wasn't the case, the approach itself fell apart pretty quickly in my eyes.

Jones also had the tendency to write completely nonsensical plots, but I won't get into that right now.

Agreed, he had a good idea, just bad execution in my eyes

[StrikeForce Albert]

BTW is Planet Hulk any good? I trust your opinion CSBG people. Even Greg Burgas... sometimes.

I really enjoy it. The story itself has hit the "gone on a little bit to long" part, but the writing and pacing are top notch. Plus the supporting cast is done very well.

[Hulkamaniac]

Always loved PAD's run on hulk, my fav, but I've always personally loved most if not all the Hulk stuff since. I always loved how so many writers have altered the character and how so many artists have also protrayed the Hulk. It displays the versatility of the character, which in one way is the true test of any character concept.
Planet Hulk speaks to this in so many ways, exploring the character in ways and places that were not as explored as it is now. I can't wait till Hulk comes back to earth (!) but I am also very concerned on the end point of the storyline, may be very anticlimactic, dunno but how can you conclude such a storyline? :eek:

[Deep_Sleeper]

It's almost come to a point where the HULK character doesn't seem to have a definitive identity, hasn't it?

It's cool and all that HULK can be a different character to different people, depending on which types of HULK stories they came to like. My earliest exposure to the HULK was the TV show. Back then, around the age of 2 or 3, I didn't know the HULK was a comic book character. Him having a cartoon was like kids growing up on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles having the cartoon and then a movie, not knowing the turtles were from comics.

When I came to Canada, it surprised me to find out that HULK had comics, as well. Over the years, it finally dawned on me that the character was always from comics and had different interpretations of him in other media.

However, most other media outlets for the HULK always had kind of the same theme. Man on the run from some kind of authority, with the destructive monster inside him just waiting to emerge.

Maybe that's why I liked Startling Stories: Banner.