manga art style in comic books

[mojojo1984]

hello everyone,
it's me again.i know this thread is about anime.but i read something that manga is a very popular art style in comic books.i know dc comic's teen titans go! and Marvel's Mangaverse were drawn in manga style i was hoping anyone knew any more?
thank you for your time.
-Joe:)

[The Xenos]

...

Well, how can I not show up?

See, my constant complaint is that THERE IS NO 'MANGA STYLE'. I keep making it on this forum and others and I'm sure fans of the idea of 'manga style' are sick of me.

To me, it's just an over genarlization of art styles. I believe if you look at actual manga artists, you'll see a wide variety of styles. I think it's unfair to label anyone's art style as just 'manga style'.

I keep saying to look at Berserk vs Azumanga Daioh, Crying Freeman vs Bleach, Blame! vs One Piece. They are very different.

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/5714/mangastyles1copybv5.th.jpg (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mangastyles1copybv5.jpg)

Are there similarities? Yes. Yet I also seem similarities to American comics. Or European comics. Though no one seems to buy any of those, dammit. Oh and let's just ignore South America. Let's call it all manga and bow down to Japan. Bah.

Oh and let's not forget Korean and Chinese comics. Korean ones are similar enough to Japanese that Tokyopop and some can call Korean comics 'manga'. If you know anything about history or the socio-political issues between the two counties, you should know how wrong that is. Koreans have their own title. 'Manhua'. Chinese comics have a similar name which I forget. Plus the Chinese ones in America are large and in color and thus more expense. So, relatively, no one buys them.

Manga is cheap. I mean that in a good way. It's cheap to publish, or rather reprint, manga in America, so it sells better. There you go. That's why I think manga outsells American comics or comics from anywhere else.

Another annoaynce is when manga is used as a published format, a certain size and price. That is also false. Manga in Japan is published in multiple formats. It's first published in anthologies and then collected in volumes in a smaller format for each series. That collected format is called 'takubon' or whatever your prefered spelling is. Major publishers like Tokyopop want you to ignore this an just call anything, including American made books, 'manga'. I don't buy that.

To me, what makes most sense is: Manga = Comics published in Japan. Anything else is a comic book or graphic novel whose artist is inspired by manga. They and their art are manga influenced. And there is NOTHING wrong with that. Some of the manga influenced graphic novels Tokyopop are fantastic.

Plus let's not forget that manga artist from Japan have worked for American companies. Now, as far as I remember, all the Mangaverse books were by American artists. Yet Marvel has had Tsutomu Nihei do a Wolverine comic book, Snikt!. Kia Asamiya worked on regular issues of Uncanny X-Men (though too bad the story somewhat stunk).

He also did a Batman book published in Japan under license from DC. Later it was published in America. Now as the artist is Japanese and it was first published there, I would call that manga. Ryoichi Ikegami did a Spider-man manga in Japan under license from Marvel in the 70s. Of course now we have a Witchblade manga and anime in Japan.

[mathew101281]

I think Manga has two meanings.

1. Comics from Japan.

2. Comics inspired by Japanese comics


Manga to me is an art movement like Impressionism.

[Yun Lao]

Oh and let's not forget Korean and Chinese comics. Korean ones are similar enough to Japanese that Tokyopop and some can call Korean comics 'manga'. If you know anything about history or the socio-political issues between the two counties, you should know how wrong that is. Koreans have their own title. 'Manhua'. Chinese comics have a similar name which I forget.

I believe the Chinese ones are known as "Manwha" but I could be mistaken.

As for my opinion on this, I believe that manga is truely just Japanese comics. American comics may be inspired by them, but until I find myself reading them from left to right and in novel-sized volumes, they're still just comics.

[Melchior]

*reads Xenos's reply, looks at picture.*

What's the second from the right picture, next to the Battle Angel Alita at the end? I just cannot place it.

Mostly, I agree what Xenos says. Though I thought Chinese is manhua, with Korean being manwha. Though, after an interesting argument in "Dramacon", I am half-tempted to call all comics and manga "whimsical drawings".

[KameTen]

Its all just comic books. Whether it was created in Japan, Korea, Africa, or any place in the world, if it follows the format of a comic book, then it is a comic book. Terms like "manga" only serve to separate comic book fans into unnecessary fandom factions", and in the worst case, promote a superiority complex within these factions that is undeserved and unneeded.

Art styles vary from place to place, but a comic book will always be a comic book. Unless its a graphic novel or trade paperback, but thats semantics:p

[mojojo1984]

thanks everyone,
the book also says realism art style is also big in comic books today. didn't Tsutomu Nihei also did the artwork for the halo graphic novel. that looks more realism then manga style since he does mangas too.
-Joe:)

[Smokeyjay]

*reads Xenos's reply, looks at picture.*

What's the second from the right picture, next to the Battle Angel Alita at the end? I just cannot place it.

Mostly, I agree what Xenos says. Though I thought Chinese is manhua, with Korean being manwha. Though, after an interesting argument in "Dramacon", I am half-tempted to call all comics and manga "whimsical drawings".


Geez I thought I knew but now I don't. Thats going to annoy me now.

It looks familiar but at the same time I know I haven't read it before. The art style however.

[Alex L]

*reads Xenos's reply, looks at picture.*

What's the second from the right picture, next to the Battle Angel Alita at the end? I just cannot place it.

Mostly, I agree what Xenos says. Though I thought Chinese is manhua, with Korean being manwha. Though, after an interesting argument in "Dramacon", I am half-tempted to call all comics and manga "whimsical drawings".

Comics, as defined by Scott McCloud:

Juxtaposed pictorial and other images in deliberate sequence intended to convey information and/or to produce an aesthetic response in the viewer.

:)

[The Xenos]

I think Manga has two meanings.

1. Comics from Japan.

2. Comics inspired by Japanese comics


Manga to me is an art movement like Impressionism.

Well, I think it does have both those meanings. I disagree with the second one greatly. I do ackknowage many people belive in the second one. I just don't subscribe to and am against that school of thought myself.

Funny you should mention Impressionism. There was and article in the Boston Phoenix about an exhibit of American Impressionists. I wrote down a blog entry about it one day I was bored working security at a dorm, but haven't typed it up yet. The story commented about how the author and others thought American impressionists just were pale imitations of the French artists that started the movement. The critic said that the impressionists were fans of the French movement, but really didn't understand the real meaning and mechanics of it. One funny story even told how scores of American artists went to France, without being able to speak French or speak it well, and ended up in a sort of ethnic ghetto together while trying to learn from the French artists they were fans of.

I couldn't help but think of how similar it was to my complaints about American 'manga' artists. That's my biggest fear, that American artists become so locked in on making 'manga' that they just forget to make good art and story. I fear they look at manga and only see the surface and don't get what really makes it tick. I also feel that only looking at one country for an art style or how to make 'comics' is a troublesome mistake. Hell, even looking at one storytelling medium like comics for inspiration is a mistake.

I myself am looking forward to making comics / webcomics / graphic novels / whatever. I can't really draw, but I can write and maybe even layout panels dependings on the artist's preference. I would definately say I'm influenced by manga. Yet I wouldn't dare try to take that word from Japanese culture and apply it to my work here in America. I would feel like a cultural thief. I feel I have too much pride and love for my country, the area of my country even (Lovecraft county basically), to call my work by a Japanese name. Plus, as much as I enjoy manga, I have too many influcnes outside of it to just call my work by that one name.


*reads Xenos's reply, looks at picture.*

What's the second from the right picture, next to the Battle Angel Alita at the end? I just cannot place it.

Heh. That's a random image from like the 8th chapter of the new Tsutomu Nihei (Blame!) manga Abara. It's just coming out in Japan. I thought it was an awesome character, so I had cut out the image. I randomly threw it in there as an example of Nihei's rather different style. I have yet to find a copy of it in English, though I know one or two groups are working on it.

His big hit Blame! is still not fully published in the US, so I can only imagine when this one will get here. There's also the one volume Noise which may be set in the same universe, centuries before. Plus there's the one volume Biomega

Nihei is one reason I hate the idea of a 'manga style'. I love his art because it's far from the sterotype. It almost reminds me more of European art like by Moebius or the art of Metabarons which is a European comic by Argentinian artist Juan Gimenez. Though I got into Metabarons after I read Blame!.



Mostly, I agree what Xenos says. Though I thought Chinese is manhua, with Korean being manwha. Though, after an interesting argument in "Dramacon", I am half-tempted to call all comics and manga "whimsical drawings".

I keep hearing about Dramacon,but never have been compelled to pick it up. I dunno. I like Genshiken (anime and most of the manga) and have seen some Comic Party, but I have seen enough drama at US cons that I don't really want to read a comic about it.

[The Xenos]

Its all just comic books. Whether it was created in Japan, Korea, Africa, or any place in the world, if it follows the format of a comic book, then it is a comic book. Terms like "manga" only serve to separate comic book fans into unnecessary fandom factions", and in the worst case, promote a superiority complex within these factions that is undeserved and unneeded.

Art styles vary from place to place, but a comic book will always be a comic book. Unless its a graphic novel or trade paperback, but thats semantics:p

I somewhat agree. To me, we should respect comics 'created in Japan, Korea, Africa, or any place in the world' by calling them by their names. That's why I like calling Japanese comics 'manga'. That's why I think it's insulting calling Korean books by the same name. To me, it's a label to indicate where the book came from, in repsect to the author's and publication's nation of origin.

As for graphic 'novel or trade paperback', that's more teminology of publishing format. Recently, I've seen some American graphic novels just slapped as 'manga', particularly by Tokyopop. Great. Now manga isn't just comics from Japan, it's not even just an art style, it's also a publishing format! Next, I predict 'manga' will become a floor polish and a dessert topping. It's pretty insane what a cheap buzzword it's become instead of just being a respectful term for Japanese comics.

The thing that gets me, is that manga isn't always published in this American 'manga' format that Tokyopop and others sell. In Japan, they have a name for it, 'takubon'. That's because manga is also often published in larger format anthologies on crappy paper. It really is like comic book issues and trade paperbacks. Yet no one wants to ackowlage on a publishing level this and only Viz is even attempting anthologies.


Comics, as defined by Scott McCloud:


Juxtaposed pictorial and other images in deliberate sequence intended to convey information and/or to produce an aesthetic response in the viewer.
:)

He also uses the term 'squential art', which he got from Will Eisner, who basically is a key creator who helped build comics to what they are today. I often compare him to Tezuka. I call comics 'The House that Eisner Built' and I call manga 'The House that Tezuka Built'. I love both and I think everyone should visit them both for inspiration. Yet today, I think you should call things from where they are published, not from where they are inspired from.

[Alex L]

The thing that gets me, is that manga isn't always published in this American 'manga' format that Tokyopop and others sell. In Japan, they have a name for it, 'takubon'. That's because manga is also often published in larger format anthologies on crappy paper. It really is like comic book issues and trade paperbacks. Yet no one wants to ackowlage on a publishing level this and only Viz is even attempting anthologies..

Viz' Shonen Jump isn't even quite like Shounen Jump in Japan.

Because many of the stories are collected in tankubon, like you said, the weekly Japanese SJ is printed on what's essentially Yellow Pages-quality paper and sold dirt-cheap. This allows them better market penetration -- if it only costs a buck or two, no reason to not buy it for your kid, really.

Too bad VIz doesn't have the breadth of titles to put out a full Japanese-style SJ.

[KameTen]

I somewhat agree. To me, we should respect comics 'created in Japan, Korea, Africa, or any place in the world' by calling them by their names. That's why I like calling Japanese comics 'manga'. That's why I think it's insulting calling Korean books by the same name. To me, it's a label to indicate where the book came from, in repsect to the author's and publication's nation of origin.

As for graphic 'novel or trade paperback', that's more teminology of publishing format. Recently, I've seen some American graphic novels just slapped as 'manga', particularly by Tokyopop. Great. Now manga isn't just comics from Japan, it's not even just an art style, it's also a publishing format! Next, I predict 'manga' will become a floor polish and a dessert topping. It's pretty insane what a cheap buzzword it's become instead of just being a respectful term for Japanese comics.

The thing that gets me, is that manga isn't always published in this American 'manga' format that Tokyopop and others sell. In Japan, they have a name for it, 'takubon'. That's because manga is also often published in larger format anthologies on crappy paper. It really is like comic book issues and trade paperbacks. Yet no one wants to ackowlage on a publishing level this and only Viz is even attempting anthologies.

It's just that the word "manga" means comic book in Japan, and I am a bit tired of that word being abused by American fans to separate themselves from other comic book readers.

That, and I'm rebelling against "Otaku-isms", and what better way go about it then to reject one of the biggest ones. Remember, people who say "baka" should be ignored and gently patted on the head in pity. ;)

[The Xenos]

Well, I must confess when I was younger and didn't know better, I used to think there was a 'manga style'. At the time it was a buzz word in comics... and no one bought actual manga as much as they did manga styled comics like that Darkminds by Pat Lee (which, upon rereading, is utter crap) or Joe Mad's Battlechasers or Adam Warren's art (though I still like this style).

Then I actually started exploring actual manga and realized what utter rubbish the hype over the 'manga style' was. Maybe you could connect specific US artists to specific manga artists, but beyond that it's overgeneralizing.

Oh and I too confess I used to go around and use 'baka'. Though it did get tired. Plus I had just gotten into anime with Evangleion. It did seem to be Asuka's favorite word, especially around Shinji. I like to day that I learned the Japanese words for 'stupid' and 'father' from Evangelion. "Nani?" or "What?" also were tossed around. Sometimes 'Just a minute.' too.

Also, the very word Otaku is a problem for me. It's like a racial slur again geeks, but has also been adopted by them, somewhat like 'the n-word' in hip hop culture. Yet now you have a bunch of spoiled white kids who want to use that same word and don't really understand it or its history. They don't know about the otaku child muderer that popularized the term. They also seem to think it pertains only to anime, when, if you look at its history and useage in Japan, it is a general term that applies to many geekdoms. You have military otaku to sports otaku to anime otaku to model otaku and so on.

As for Shonen Jump, you are right. The American one differs greatly from the Japanese one. I was mainly trying to show how manga doesn't just appear just a small collected books that are about the size of regular novels and are priced at $10. Also, the Japanese one is also one of the best selling comics in the world.

[Ayo]

"Manga" is the Japanese word for "comics."

That is all.

[Alex L]

Also, the very word Otaku is a problem for me. It's like a racial slur again geeks, but has also been adopted by them, somewhat like 'the n-word' in hip hop culture. Yet now you have a bunch of spoiled white kids who want to use that same word and don't really understand it or its history. They don't know about the otaku child muderer that popularized the term. They also seem to think it pertains only to anime, when, if you look at its history and useage in Japan, it is a general term that applies to many geekdoms. You have military otaku to sports otaku to anime otaku to model otaku and so on.

For informative purposes only (not counting Xenos, since Xenos obviously knows this already):

In 1988, Tsutomu Miyazaki sexually assaulted, murdered, and ate part of the corpses of several young girls, maybe about 4-7 years old.

When caught, police searched his home, finding thousands of anime tapes and ero-games. This led to a black eye on anime fans in the country (remember...watching anime in Japan is analagous to watching cartoons here -- kids do it; it's kind of weird when grownups still watch Looney Toons on a daily basis). Because of the mass amounts of tapes found, as well as his allegedly basing one of the murders off of one of the horror tapes they found, he was dubbed the 'Otaku Murderer.'

Imagine the violent video games backlash here in the US, only about a kajillion times worse, and that's what anime fans there went through.

By the time it had been mentioned that he was just a psycho and anime was not responsible, it was too late and the damage had already been done and any retractions on the part of the media were minor.

Plus, the word 'otaku' = 'house', as in 'stays in house,' as in 'weird shut-in who never leaves and sits in his mom's attic all day watching cartoons' -- or at least as it relates to anime otaku.

[Erebus]

Call it what you want, but many Asian comic books have a distinct art style which is common in all their books. You can tell right away that both Wolf's Rain and Dragon Ball are both "manga," even though their styles are unique, they're still similar.

[The Xenos]

Call it what you want, but many Asian comic books have a distinct art style which is common in all their books. You can tell right away that both Wolf's Rain and Dragon Ball are both "manga," even though their styles are unique, they're still similar.

I guess you didn't hear me ealier when I argued that such an idea is a bull&*#$ overgeneralization. I think anyone who actually reads coimics and manga should know better than this.


To me, it's just an over genarlization of art styles. I believe if you look at actual manga artists, you'll see a wide variety of styles. I think it's unfair to label anyone's art style as just 'manga style'.

I keep saying to look at Berserk vs Azumanga Daioh, Crying Freeman vs Bleach, Blame! vs One Piece. They are very different.

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/5714/mangastyles1copybv5.th.jpg (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mangastyles1copybv5.jpg)

Are there similarities? Yes. Yet I also seem similarities to American comics. Or European comics. Though no one seems to buy any of those, dammit. Oh and let's just ignore South America. Let's call it all manga and bow down to Japan. Bah.

Oh and let's not forget Korean and Chinese comics. Korean ones are similar enough to Japanese that Tokyopop and some can call Korean comics 'manga'. If you know anything about history or the socio-political issues between the two counties, you should know how wrong that is. Koreans have their own title. 'Manhua'. Chinese comics have a similar name which I forget. Plus the Chinese ones in America are large and in color and thus more expense. So, relatively, no one buys them.

[Erebus]

I guess you didn't hear me ealier when I argued that such an idea is a bull&*#$ overgeneralization. I think anyone who actually reads coimics and manga should know better than this.

Yes, I deed read your post. However, if you get any person on the street who has moderate knowledge of cartoons over the last 20 years, and show them both, say, Speed Racer and Bleach, they will probably 9/10 know that both of them are Manga, or something similar to manga. Yes, I know that all artists have different and unique style, but to say that there aren't any similarities that distinguish them from their Western competitors is wrong.

[Inkthinker]

See, that's a generalization, though. What Xenos is trying to pound in there is that you can't treat "surface" generalisations as a stereotype to represent all of a "style" of art. Style is dependant on influences that you pick up over a lifetime... so of course many Asian artists present a style influenced by other Asian artists.

But the world is blending together more and more every day, and while it's fine to associate content with it's origin, it's shortsighted to take surface appearance and use it as a defining term for content.

In other words, just 'cause you can see that it has been influenced by Asian content, that doesn't make something "manga". This, I believe, is at the root of Xenos's argument, and it's a valid point.

Is Adam Warren "manga"? Some would say so, but I don't know that Adam would.

[Erebus]

See, that's a generalization, though. What Xenos is trying to pound in there is that you can't treat "surface" generalisations as a stereotype to represent all of a "style" of art. Style is dependant on influences that you pick up over a lifetime... so of course many Asian artists present a style influenced by other Asian artists.

But the world is blending together more and more every day, and while it's fine to associate content with it's origin, it's shortsighted to take surface appearance and use it as a defining term for content.

In other words, just 'cause you can see that it has been influenced by Asian content, that doesn't make something "manga". This, I believe, is at the root of Xenos's argument, and it's a valid point.

Is Adam Warren "manga"? Some would say so, but I don't know that Adam would.

Thats what I've been trying to say. Asian artists have a distinct style because they've been influenced by other Asian artists, and I've never once said that everything in Asia was manga. Yes, I am aware that manga and manwha is different. I'm Korean, and, in a matter of personal opinion, I don't really give a hoot what they call it. Yeah, their different, but the similarities are to obvious to ignore. I call Avatar: The Last Airbender an anime. I realize that it's not Japanese, I can't deny that it hasn't been influenced by Japanese comic book artists.

[The Xenos]

Yes, I deed read your post. However, if you get any person on the street who has moderate knowledge of cartoons over the last 20 years, and show them both, say, Speed Racer and Bleach, they will probably 9/10 know that both of them are Manga, or something similar to manga. Yes, I know that all artists have different and unique style, but to say that there aren't any similarities that distinguish them from their Western competitors is wrong.

So are you arguing that people should remain uneducated and ignorant? Why don't we just let them call it JAPanimation and let that old racial slur continue? I can't belive someone's actually aruging for people to reamain uneducated and ignotant. Why bother trying to teach proper grammar? Why teach people that Mark Twain is different from Ray Bradbury? They're both American author's right? Same thing.

I'm sorry. I cannnot stand for leaving people to uneducated and ignorant assumptions about American and Japanese comics. I want an educated consumer, not some rambling idiot who sees a drawing on the cover with big eyes, yells out "Kawaii neko manga!", and buys the book becaue some company slapped the term manga on it.

Oh and Speed Racer in an anime. Can we at least get mediums right?


Thats what I've been trying to say. Asian artists have a distinct style because they've been influenced by other Asian artists, and I've never once said that everything in Asia was manga.

Not always. Some have also been unfluenced by other arists. I know Nightow on Trigun admits his love for certain American artists and even drops blatant in references of Wildcats and Hellboy, Jim Lee and Mike Mignola. I think Nihei has cited European artists. I don't think it's just fan speculation, but I could be wrong.

Also, you aren't saying it is all manga, but it sounds like you're saying that it's ok to be lazy and just call it that. More and more we're going global. Artists have more and more access to art from around the world. Why the hell should a Japanese name take over all comics? That is just ignorant and unfair to other countries. Quit bowing down to Japan, people. I like their stuff and I like their artists, but they're not the only kid on the block.



Yes, I am aware that manga and manwha is different. I'm Korean, and, in a matter of personal opinion, I don't really give a hoot what they call it. Yeah, their different, but the similarities are to obvious to ignore.

Sure, you don't ignore the similarities, but you also shouldn't ignore their wonderful differences. This is like the same PC bullcrap that says we should all be colorblind and ignore ethinic differences. Excuuuuuse me, princess, but I don't belive this melting pot crap. Every country's cuture has a history and I don't belive we should erase them. Also, while I don't endose maintaining any friction or bad blood between countries, I also don't think we should forget the sour history and current politics between Japan and Korea. Korean artists should be, and I would guess are, proud of their work being Korean. I think it's an insult to them to call their work Japanese.



I call Avatar: The Last Airbender an anime. I realize that it's not Japanese, I can't deny that it hasn't been influenced by Japanese comic book artists.

Dammit. I'm American and I don't want an American production being called by a Japanese name. Give credit to where credit is do. (Though both US and Japanese animation is mostly inbetween and outsourced to Korea or various other counties.) Please, if you keep calling Avatar an anime, you're just showing your ignorance. You know better than that. Why not call all plays Shakespeare? Why not call Kevin Smith's Clerks 'Film Noir' beacause it's black and white? Bullcrap. I refuse to let people call everything animated 'anime'. There are plenty of animators working hard around the world outside of Japan that deserve reconition.

The buzzword of manga is feeding off of people's ignorance. I refuse to be a part of that. I want to treat manga as an actual artistic and literary word. Do you really want America to be a mass of ignorant masses or a society where people can inteligently and correctly know what they're talking about?

[Erebus]

So are you arguing that people should remain uneducated and ignorant? Why don't we just let them call it JAPanimation and let that old racial slur continue? I can't belive someone's actually aruging for people to reamain uneducated and ignotant. Why bother trying to teach proper grammar? Why teach people that Mark Twain is different from Ray Bradbury? They're both American author's right? Same thing.

I'm sorry. I cannnot stand for leaving people to uneducated and ignorant assumptions about American and Japanese comics. I want an educated consumer, not some rambling idiot who sees a drawing on the cover with big eyes, yells out "Kawaii neko manga!", and buys the book becaue some company slapped the term manga on it.
Eh? Maybe you've misinterpreted what I said. Yes, I believe you should give credit where credit is due. However, I'm not "overgeneralizing" anything. Asian comics DO have a distinct style which separates them from Western comics. I acknowledge that Japan, Korea, China, and other Asian countries all have their own form of "manga" (for lack of a better word), but to say that each one of them is completely different from the others is foolish.

Oh and Speed Racer in an anime. Can we at least get mediums right?
My bad :o



Not always. Some have also been unfluenced by other arists. I know Nightow on Trigun admits his love for certain American artists and even drops blatant in references of Wildcats and Hellboy, Jim Lee and Mike Mignola. I think Nihei has cited European artists. I don't think it's just fan speculation, but I could be wrong.
Good point. Hell, the very first mangas were said to be influenced by disney.

Also, you aren't saying it is all manga, but it sounds like you're saying that it's ok to be lazy and just call it that.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, but thats definitely not what I'm trying to say. Hell, I'd prefer it if people knew the difference between manga and manwha. However, for a fan to keep track of all the different names for each comic depending on its country of origin, just for the sake of political correctness is foolish. Their are enough similarities to classify Asian comics into their own category. Don't call it manga, fine, but don't try to say that each comic book from asia has a completely different art style from each other.

More and more we're going global. Artists have more and more access to art from around the world. Why the hell should a Japanese name take over all comics? That is just ignorant and unfair to other countries. Quit bowing down to Japan, people. I like their stuff and I like their artists, but they're not the only kid on the block.

Sure, you don't ignore the similarities, but you also shouldn't ignore their wonderful differences. This is like the same PC bullcrap that says we should all be colorblind and ignore ethinic differences. Excuuuuuse me, princess, but I don't belive this melting pot crap. Every country's cuture has a history and I don't belive we should erase them. Also, while I don't endose maintaining any friction or bad blood between countries, I also don't think we should forget the sour history and current politics between Japan and Korea. Korean artists should be, and I would guess are, proud of their work being Korean. I think it's an insult to them to call their work Japanese.

The tension between Korea, Japan, and China is so bad that it leads to irrationality, to the point where they try to erase any record of influence from each other, and each claim to be superior of the others. Like I said, are we supposed to call all manga-like drawings as "comic book style originating from Japan, but spread to other Asian countries with different unique styles," simply for the sake of being politically correct? Do we call all western comics of the superhero genre as "Jewish comics," simply because the Golden age creators were Jewish?


Dammit. I'm American and I don't want an American production being called by a Japanese name. Give credit to where credit is do. (Though both US and Japanese animation is mostly inbetween and outsourced to Korea or various other counties.) Please, if you keep calling Avatar an anime, you're just showing your ignorance. You know better than that. Why not call all plays Shakespeare? Why not call Kevin Smith's Clerks 'Film Noir' beacause it's black and white? Bullcrap. I refuse to let people call everything animated 'anime'. There are plenty of animators working hard around the world outside of Japan that deserve reconition.
Avatar is animated in Korea, yet its acknowledged as an American cartoon. Do you simply call it a cartoon? Or do you call it yeonghwa, because its Korean?

[KameTen]

Double post.

[KameTen]

The tension between Korea, Japan, and China is so bad that it leads to irrationality, to the point where they try to erase any record of influence from each other, and each claim to be superior of the others. Like I said, are we supposed to call all manga-like drawings as "comic book style originating from Japan, but spread to other Asian countries with different unique styles," simply for the sake of being politically correct? Do we call all western comics of the superhero genre as "Jewish comics," simply because the Golden age creators were Jewish?

Bad example. While the creators of the first Superhero comics were Jewish, their choices and storytelling style were based on both personal, cultural, and social influences. Their influences came from America, they produced a comic for Americans (with a slant towards immigrants to America), so its an American Superhero Comic.

And while Avatar contains Eastern Influences, its storytelling structure has a Western slant to it, providing a distinctiveness to it that separates it from standard Japanese Shonen fare. It was written for a primarily Western audience, and should be considered Western Animation, though its Japanese/Chinese influences are clear and can lead to a different conclusion.

Something like that.

[The Xenos]

Well, most Japanese animation (anime) is also done in Korea. It's produced in Japan and shipped out to Korea. Though I've heard some other countries have started making a mark as 'inbetweener' studios. Anime is produced in Japan. American animation, like Avatar, is produced in America. Both outsource the grunt work to other counties. Production and creation and actual animation grunt work has been done in separate countries for some time. Meanwhile, I belive we've also seen some animation produced in France. Totally Spies I belive is an example of this. A bunch of people call that anime, but it's French, not Japanese. Oh and I've even had friends who thought a Japanese company did Batman The Animated Series because it looked like Big O. *hits head* I did my best and didn't punch them in the face for their stupidity.

As for calling early American works 'Jewish comics', I'd disagree. They were American citizens and lived in the culture. I certainly would acknowlage their Jewish ethnicity and hertitage. It played a lot into politics in the industry. Just look at the Bill Finger controversy over creating Batman.

Yet they're working in America for American companies. Those are comics. They could be comic book issues or trade paperbacks collecting issues. They could be an ongoing series or a mini-series. They could be graphic novels if published all in one shot. They could be in color or black and white. All are just publishing formats.

If you work in Japan for a Japanese publisher, that's manga. They usually are published in magazines and anthologies. Then they are collected into volumes, what merican consumers buy and ignorantly call 'manga format'. If you work for a Korean publisher, that's manhwa.

Now the realy trick part is like what I mentioned before. You have manga artist Tsutomu Nihei's work for Marvel on a Wolverine comic mini-series. You also have Marvel and DC liscencing characters to be published in Japan, like Batman: Child of Dreams or the 70s Spider-man manga. I can only think of one American artist who actually worked for a manga publisher in Japan, Paul Pope.

To me if any publisher in America is creating "manga", and not just importing it from Japan, they are being deceptive and trying to be cheap in making a buck off the ignorance of the public.

Oh and MegaTokyo can kiss my American rear end. As Penny Arcade said: "He's not even Japanese! He's from Wisconsin!" He's not working in the Japanese market. All his print publishers have been American. He and many of his fans are in America. It's not manga. Fred should stop pretending otherwise and stop leading on the ignorant.

[Erebus]

Just curious, but Xenos, what do you call manga-influenced American/French/whatever comics? Just comics?

[Alex L]

I'm not Xenos, but I'd just call them American/French/whatever comics.

I wouldn't call the Marvel Mangaverse 'manga' -- because it's not made in Japan.

I wouldn't call Avatar an anime, either. It's an animated cartoon, and seems to derive some of its material from Japanese anime, but it's even more heavily influenced by Chinese culture, and in the end it was written by an American.

Dragonball (the original) is clearly a take on the Chinese folk story Journey to the West, but I wouldn't call Dragonball Chinese.

[The Xenos]

I call them comics. Or European comics. If I know the specific country of origin, I say French or Italian comics. I call Japanese comics just 'manga' out of respect to the nationality of its creators and publishers. I do notcall US made books by that name out of the same respect.

If they're published all one volume at at time, which is unlike most all manga on the shelves, I call them graphic novels. Why should Oni Press's Scott Pilgrim be any different from American made books at Tokyopop. (Ok, Scott Pilgrim is actually by a Canadian artist, but Oni Press is an American company. Thanks, NAFTA. Damn Bill Clinton selling out comic book jobs to them Canadians.)

edit:

I just thought of one funny thing. Sure, we have this 'American manga' bullcrap (the marketing, not the art). Yet let's not forget it goes both ways. There's an awesome book by Yukito Kishiro in his Battle Angel Alita / GUNNM series. It's a separate series or one shot volume. It's called Ashen Vector. It takes place in the Motorball Derbys of the Alita series. The arist credits Frank Miller's Sin City and said he based his style on that for the manga. So here we have a manga in the style of a specific American comic. Yet we don't call it a comic book, do we? It's still manga.

Funny enough, Frank Miller is a manga influenced artist himself. It's a snake eating its own tail. Maybe not so much on Sin City, but Miller is definately influenced by manga like Lone Wolf and Cub. His series Ronin is a prime example of this. Of course, we don't call Frank Miller a mangaka or call his books manga. 1) They don't look a thing like this cliche 'manga style' you see sold today. And 2) Frank Miller would punch you in the face for not calling his work a goddamn American comic book.

[Ayo]

I don't consider the OEL books to be "manga" but I don't see why people are angry that they are being marketed alongside manga.

They are comic books made outside of Japan but inspired by Japanese comic books. It makes perfect sense to market them alongside Japanese comic books because that's who would be interested.

You think a superhero-exclusive fan is going to read Steady Beat? It would make no sense to release such a comic in 32-page monthly installments when the target market (teenage girls, in that case) isn't even a part of that world.

They put the books where people who MIGHT want to read them will be shopping. No sin in that.

The Japanese did not invent the digest paperback or the reasonably-priced novel OR the graphic novel.

Even if they did, these are sound business models.

[The Xenos]

I don't mind them being sold along side manga. Hell, if they fit on the shelf, you can't help but put them together. I DO mind them being marketed as manga (Tokyopop's solicits and press make me sick), labeled on the book as manga, and then put in the 'manga' section. At least call it something like the manga/comics or manga / graphic novel section.

[Inkthinker]

It's not manga. Fred should stop pretending otherwise and stop leading on the ignorant.

Here's the thing... I don't think Fred ever pretended that his series is "manga". He's not entirely in charge of how Megatokyo is marketed and described by his fans and publishers, though, and I'm sure he's well aware of the benefits of association. To accuse him of being some sort of manga poseur, though, who tries to sell his book as something it's not, is a bit unfair.

[Ayo]

I don't mind them being sold along side manga. Hell, if they fit on the shelf, you can't help but put them together. I DO mind them being marketed as manga (Tokyopop's solicits and press make me sick), labeled on the book as manga, and then put in the 'manga' section. At least call it something like the manga/comics or manga / graphic novel section.

If you don't mind them being sold alongside manga, why do you later object to them being put in the manga section?

Manga sells.

OEL are inspired by manga, made by manga fans, and appeal to manga readers.

So what idiot would shelve them in the superhero section of the comicstore or bookstore when the buying audience who wants these books in in the manga section?


Are they truly "manga?" No. Neither are manhuwa. What matters is that the people who want to buy these books can easily find them, and the people who are trying to scrape together a meager living by making the books can maybe pay their rent and electrical bill. And maybe eat a meal.

[The Xenos]

Well, my argument is there just shouldn't be a manga section at all. What I mean is, there should not be a 'just manga' section. Call it 'manga / graphic novels' at least. We don't live in Japan, there are other comics than Japanese ones. There are Korean and American books on thsoe shelves, so it's not all manga. Why call it the manga section? Screw that. That is just unfair to non-Japanese comics. Just because manga is hot and is the buzzword right now, that doesn't make it right to label everything by the damn word. It's wrong to both the non-Japanese comics as it is to the Japanese comics that should be called manga.

Also, there is no Superhero section of the bookstore. Nor should there be, even in a comic store. A bookstore should just put them all together, perhaps separating by publisher or just organizing by author. Unless you want to go all out and put Sin City next to regular crime novels and shojo romance comics next to actual romance novels. I don't see going that far. I think the best way is to put all the comic books together. Separate them by size format. Generally this will separate American books from Japanese, because most American books are larger in size format. Though there are plenty of takubon / digest sized American books coming out. Though I noticed some Korean books from Dark Horse are published in 'original Korean size' and they're about an inch or so bigger than most manga.

Then again, I recently got the full color large format manga Robot. That's got a size and color format unlike most manga. Oh and then there's the slightly larger full color Katsuya Terada's The Monkey King. Also a bit bigger than 'manga size'. Yet both of those full color books are actually manga. Yet you can't quite fit them with regular manga on the shelves. You have to shove those in with 'superhero' sized book.

Oh and I know it's wrong to call them 'superhero' size format, but I'm trying to point out how wrong it is for all these comapnies to call those other books 'manga sized'.

[Ayo]

Barnes and Noble and Borders both have separate manga sections.

B&N sometimes labels the manga part "manga." The rest is put into Graphic novels. Sometimes the alternative comics have their own section as well.



Also, manga are shelved together because they're uniform in size and very neat. It's so easy to shelve them together. No bookseller in their right mind is going to throw the manga and Western books together in their store. It would annoy everybody. Honestly, the sections are right next to each other, it's not like it hurt you to keep them on separate shelves. Bigger shelves for the Western books, smaller (and cleaner, more organized) shelves for the immaculate Eastern (and Eastern-inspired) books.




ALSO-also: as I said, these things are separated into sections to help customers find what they are looking for.

[The Xenos]

Barnes and Noble and Borders both have separate manga sections.

B&N sometimes labels the manga part "manga." The rest is put into Graphic novels. Sometimes the alternative comics have their own section as well.

Also, manga are shelved together because they're uniform in size and very neat. It's so easy to shelve them together. No bookseller in their right mind is going to throw the manga and Western books together in their store. It would annoy everybody. Honestly, the sections are right next to each other, it's not like it hurt you to keep them on separate shelves. Bigger shelves for the Western books, smaller (and cleaner, more organized) shelves for the immaculate Eastern (and Eastern-inspired) books.

ALSO-also: as I said, these things are separated into sections to help customers find what they are looking for.

As I pointed out, not all manga fits in that small size. Sure, a majority does, but not all. Therefore it is false to call all books that size the 'manga' section. Some manga is in the larger format, not just American comics. Aside from Robot, I know a number Tezuka works like Buddah and Phoenix are oversized. Nevermind Akira. Then you have some of the older manga that was slightly larger by not even an inch. Though those might not be in print anymore. Still you have some like Terada's Monkey King or some Korean books that are slightly bigger.

Plus not everything in that smaller size is manga. Those Korean books are not manga. False freaking advertising. It's not Japanese, it's not manga. I don't give a crap how much money Tokyopop puts into marketing and their lies, it doesn't make it right. Other publishers like Dark Horse and some others label Korean books properly. The whole section shouldn't be laveled manga just because the comics are that size format. You also have stuff like Scott Pilgrim or the Marvel Digests that fit on those shelves.

Ten dollars, black and white, and only 5x7 inches does not equal manga.

Please, don't tell me people aren't educated enough to realize the difference from American to Japanese to Korean books. Please don't tell me people are too lazy to look through more than one section or size format for manga. Please don't tell people are too cheap to buy anything that's not $10 and black and white. It's all a bunch of marketing bullcrap dumbing down America just to make a buck.

And if people are too stupid, lazy, and cheap to look beyond the 'manga' section then.. in the words of Bill Hicks.. "Kill yourself."

"Aaah, no really, there's no rationalisation for what you do and you are Satan's little helpers. Okay - kill yourself - seriously. You are the ruiner of all things good, seriously. No this is not a joke, you're going, "there's going to be a joke coming," there's no f---ing joke coming. You are Satan's spawn filling the world with bile and garbage. You are f---ed and you are f---ing us. Kill yourself. It's the only way to save your f---ing soul, kill yourself. Planting seeds. I know all the marketing people are going, "he's doing a joke... there's no joke here whatsoever. Suck a tail-pipe, f---ing hang yourself, borrow a gun from a Yank friend - I don't care how you do it. Rid the world of your evil f---ing makinations. Machi... Whatever, you know what I mean. "

[Inkthinker]

Hey Xenos... in a perfect world, I don't think comics should be shelved separately at all. Graphic novels should be shelved right along with regular novels, organized by genre. People who are into supernatural horror/suspense novels should be seeing books like Death Note and Preacher, right alongside Clive Barker and Stephen King, and books like Sin City or Planetes ought to be shelved next to Carl Hiassen and Arthur Clarke.

But that's not how marketing works. If I ever run a bookstore, I'll do it my way, but ultimately we're going to have to grit our teeth and keep preaching The Word to the unwashed masses. Publishers have a vested interest in keeping "manga" separate from "comics" in the minds of the consumer in order to avoid the stigma that comics have carried in Western society for the past 50 years... and Western artists have the same interest in separating their work from the capes and spandex image that "comic book" holds in the mind of most of the English-speaking world.

I think the greatest hope is in continuing to separate the concept of "graphic novel" from "comic book", just as Will Eisner always hoped we might. It's slowly happening, as we shed old chains like the Comics Code and we bring in a greater range of foriegn works as well as accepting infusions of quality content from domestic creators that breaks the molds.

But growing up was never meant to be a painless process. :D

[The Xenos]

By the way, please note I was being overdramatic about that killing bit. As I said, stole it all from Bill Hicks. (Heh. And then Inkthinker mentions Preacher which Hicks cameos in.)

Another couple of tidbits, DC is coming out with their Minx line of comics. I wonder where comic stores and book chains are going to put that? Again, I'm up with putting stuff by size, so jam it with the manga and call it all comics or graphic novels. Or do it by publisher or author. But, again, don't separate manga or manga style from American books.

Jim Rugg's art on the first Minx title The Plain Janes isn't really 'manga' or rather manga influenced as much as others. Yet it's a damn nice style. I randomly picked up his Street Angel comic from SLG and instantly loved it. It's an amazing book. Not superhero, just plain crazy action with a strong female lead, who happens to be homeless and fights with her skateboard in a city filled random ninjas.

Oh and we also have the creative tream of My Faith in Frankie doing a book. That was such a wonderful book! Rather an American Ah My Goddess!, but only one volume. (I've heard fans complain AMG has just wandered.) Sadly, the trade for My Faith in Frankie was turned to black and white even though it was originally in color. It was done in 'manga' digest sized. They never released a color, trying to cash in on that manga style. Meanwhile, they lost the wonderful color of the original book.

The other tidbit I was reminded of is.. South American comics. And European comics, I guess. In particular Cybersix with art by Carlos Meglia. It took me forever to find a bootleg of the Canadian/Japanese produced cartoon. I don't know if that comic is ever seeing the light of day in America, not even bootleg online, nevermind legit. Though I've seen him work in some US comics. Humberto Ramos certainly was a follower of his South American style, yet everyone called his stuff 'manga style' and ignored the South American style like it didn't matter. See, it's that crap that annoys me.

I'm not saying to ignore Japanese comic book art, manga. I like it too. I'm just so damned sick of so many people acting like it's the only good stuff out there and that it's all so freaking amazing. It's not.

[Ayo]

Wow...you're really passionate about the purity of the term "manga."

It's not that intense, man.

What's MORE important than your perception of the sanctity of a particular foreign loan-word is that people get the books they want, and producers make enough money off those books to survive.

"Manga" just means "comics" anyway. If you have to call 'em "manga" to sell 'em, so be it.

I'd call the fuckers Banana Ice Cream if it would move units.

[Inkthinker]

It's a common misconception that "manga" means "comics"... even to the Japanese, "manga" means "Japanese comics". They use the term "comiksu" to refer to American books...

Separate terminology based on land of origin doesn't bother me, but I agree that it shouldn't be confused with "style".

[Niro]

i know this comic is inspired by Japan... its Samurai published by Dark Horse Comics

[KameTen]

It's a common misconception that "manga" means "comics"... even to the Japanese, "manga" means "Japanese comics". They use the term "comiksu" to refer to American books...

Separate terminology based on land of origin doesn't bother me, but I agree that it shouldn't be confused with "style".

All the reminder as to how xenophobic the Japanese still are:(

Comics is comics.