Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes II #6 Preview Pages

[mattbib]

Courtesy of CBR (http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=9324):

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[StoneGold]

And so the true craziness begins. I wonder if Casey will bring up the wonkiness of using a man's complete mental breakdown as a trap for marrying him.

[The Confessor]

Looks good! I'm really enjoying this series and my knowledge of Avenger's history is pretty sketchy, so for the most part I'm seeing these events play out for the first time!

The art in this series has a certain Silver Age style to it too, which is really fitting to the subject matter.

[MAK15]

Hank Pym does NOT look happy to marry janet on the cover. just my opinion.

[Kirk G]

Hank Pym does NOT look happy to marry janet on the cover. just my opinion.

Now, now... let's be fair about this...
we don't know that that's really Hank Pym on the cover yet...
After all, when the wedding occurs, he isn't supposed to be in a tux, but in the new Yellowjacket costume until the big reveal happens (See Avengers #60, also reprinted in Marvel Tripple Action...and more recently in Essential Avengers Volume #3!)
...

[MAK15]

Now, now... let's be fair about this...
we don't know that that's really Hank Pym on the cover yet...
After all, when the wedding occurs, he isn't supposed to be in a tux, but in the new Yellowjacket costume until the big reveal happens (See Avengers #60, also reprinted in Marvel Tripple Action...and more recently in Essential Avengers Volume #3!)

Edit:
Has anyone noted that the three posts above all consist of a double page spread that has NOTHING to do with Earth's Mightest Heroes II #6? The spread appears to be from the new series "The Mighty Avengers" and suggests that some of those heroes are going to be present...

yes, I noticed, I think those two jokers might start plaguing the message boards with those images.
New avengers news and speculation, definietely put that there.
Mighty avengers news and speculation, maybe, but pointless since we knew the team members like, 3 months ago.
but the mighty+new avengers should not be here.

[Kirk G]

And so the true craziness begins. I wonder if Casey will bring up the wonkiness of using a man's complete mental breakdown as a trap for marrying him.

Yes, that's a good question... as it always felt somewhat manipulative of her to do this, but I hope that Casey will give us more motivation on her part as to why she might do this. (Possibly as therapy for him, allowing him some measure of success, to help him return to her... etc...)

Also, I've wondered for years why it was that NOBODY except for Jan figured it out. That is, Yellowjacket has nothing over his chin, mouth, cheeks...and Giant-Man also had nothing disguising his voice. So, why didn't Cap, Clint, T'Challa, Vision (especially), the FF, Nick Fury and all the rest recognise that something funny was going on... that this was their collegue who was pulling some costumed stunt? (Or maybe they DID, and decided to humor him, or to play along, thinking it was a prank on Jan... or maybe that this was a change for Hank and that it would all be explained in the ceremony??!!

It just didn't ring true at the time it was unveiled in Avengers #59-60... but it also felt rushed to fit into the end of #60 without some further explanation.

That same lack of investigation will come back to bite them in the butt later... see #55 Crimson Cowl is Ultron 6... #60 appearance of Yellowjacket... #66 Betrayal by a team member... etc, etc...

[MAK15]

Also, I've wondered for years why it was that NOBODY except for Jan figured it out. That is, Yellowjacket has nothing over his chin, mouth, cheeks...and Giant-Man also had nothing disguising his voice. So, why didn't Cap, Clint, T'Challa, Vision (especially), the FF, Nick Fury and all the rest recognise that something funny was going on... that this was their collegue who was pulling some costumed stunt? (Or maybe they DID, and decided to humor him, or to play along, thinking it was a prank on Jan... or maybe that this was a change for Hank and that it would all be explained in the ceremony??!!



maybe everybody was just playing along?:D

[Ventura]

maybe everybody was just playing along?:D

Yes, I've read that this aspect is going to be explored in this issue of EMH2...that is, the others are aware it is Hank and are playing along. (I have not read any of these EMH2 isues yet, prefer to wait for the tpb).

It was glaringly apparent back then (#59) that YJ was Hank, and I was a child when I first read this story. I thought it was laughable that no one recognized his voice or anything. I mean, they were fighting him, they could see his EYES. Jan didn't know until "later" that this guy was her long-time boyfriend?? It truly strained credulity. And wasn't the Panther supposed to have super-infallible "jungle senses" so that he could recognize people by scent?

Also, I guess it's the first time Crystal and Dane Whitman crossed paths since both were at the wedding (though the EMH2 cover shows her with the "4" emblem on her chest, and back then her FF uniform didn't have that...just a small "4" emblem on her belt). But I guess EMH2 is not meant to be a slavish recreation (Jan's costume is colored different from the original, too).

And in the original #60, in the full-page spread of the wedding guests, Hawkeye is shown yakking it up with his future rival for Natasha's affections (Daredevil).

[Kirk G]

Glaringly apparant???!!!
I was a kid of ten, I believe, and I swallowed it hook line and sinker in issue #59.... and when #60 came out, I enjoyed it, but on reflection, thought it was a convoluted way to produce a wedding issue... with the requisit group fight... and a rushed explanation in the final page or so. I did like to twist of Jan explaining that she knew all along.
I didn't think that the others knew.... especially Hawkeye! He was ready to bust Yellowjacket from word one.

What was the clue that turned you onto the fact that he was hank or that Giant-Man hadn't been done away with? (No, I never bought that Giant-Man was gone, dead, or otherwise, cause we only had Yellowjacket's word for it... but I did buy that this was a unique new individual who was a villian... and that Jan was at least saying that she was going to marry him! But I never saw the reverse coming.

Why did you?
And when did you first read this? Before or after Avengers #60 came out? In the late 1960s or during the 1970s reprints?

Inquiring minds want to know!

[Ventura]

I was a kid of ten, I believe, and I swallowed it hook line and sinker in issue #59.... and when #60 came out, I enjoyed it, but on reflection, thought it was a convoluted way to produce a wedding issue... with the requisit group fight... and a rushed explanation in the final page or so. I did like to twist of Jan explaining that she knew all along.
I didn't think that the others knew.... especially Hawkeye! He was ready to bust Yellowjacket from word one.

What was the clue that turned you onto the fact that [spoil] he was hank or that Giant-Man hadn't been done away with?

And when did you first read this? Before or after Avengers #60 came out? In the late 1960s or during the 1970s reprints?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Hi, Kirk! I read the issue when it first came out in 1968, I was also 10, like you. I'd been reading the Avengers since the Super-Adaptoid issue (#45) so by the time of this issue I was really into the team and its characters.

Apart from the fact that Hank never "appeared" in the story (except in YJ's retelling of what had supposedly happened)--plus the similar powers (controlling insects)--plus he seemed to know stuff about the Avengers (such as the Vision was a synthezoid, not exactly an everyday term back then)--the real tip-off for me were the close-up panels when YJ was going to kiss Jan. I just knew those blue eyes had to belong to Hank! Why else show the close-ups?
Also, a couple of issues earlier, (#57, the Vision issue) Hank had made a cryptic remark to Jan, something to the effect that he wanted to talk to her about "things" or something like that. So I figured Roy had some big plans in store for Hank.

I remember thinking I was so smart to have figured it out, and then when #60 came out with the revelation, I was very smug with some of my friends (who hadn't bought into my theory). I remember I bought Avengers #60 on the way to a birthday party with those same friends. I'd bought X-Men #52 and FF#83 at that same time. It was November 1968 (not the cover date of the books, but the actual month). I - -and a couple of other equally comics-crazed kids- -spent that party reading these comics. Ah, it was great time.

I don't have that physical issue any more (#59), but I seem to recall that in the letters column (or maybe in #60), Stan invited readers to send in letters detailing the clues (that Hank was YJ). I think I even sent in a letter, but apparently so did lots of people and Marvel awarded a no-prize, to the first letter they'd received about the clues. This was noted in later letter column.

I agree with you, back in #59-60, the other Avengers did not know or suspect that YJ was Hank. Roy wrote it that they were completely clueless (except for Jan). And I guess in order to make the story work in that more innocent time, the reader had to suspend disbelief. But you know to this day I still wonder why T'Challa's panther senses didn't kick in!

But I've read that in EMH2, the modern "twist" will be that the Avengers did know it was Hank all along (again, I have not actually read EMH2 yet, this is just what I've read about it on websites).

And yes, that panel of Hank growing and busting out of his YJ costume was powerful and John B at his best. As I think we've discussed previously, John B drew a GREAT Goliath.

And I loved how loyal Hawkeye was to Hank in those issues.

[Kirk G]

maybe everybody was just playing along?:D

I think that's the tone that's going to be taken here... possibly playing along until they can figure out what he's doing... or maybe to help him propose to Jan... but I can't imagine why else they might help out or keep their silence!

[Kirk G]

Okay now, I looked up in my Essential Avengers Volume 3... issues #57-60 of the original Avengers run... just to check out "all the clues" in the first appearance of Yellowjacket!
It was much as I remembered, except it wasn't quite as blatent in revealing or typing the hand on what was coming as I might have expected.

Now, in EMH II 1-4, we certainly see the foreshadowing for Hank under stress, and his relative reactions to these events... but, we still haven't seen the arrival of Yellowjacket yet.

I did dig up at least two references to making a date with the Avengers to discuss something important with them (Jan first, then T'Challa) before Hank vanishes... and in hind sight, it now seems clear that Roy Thomas was working toward something in his foreshadowing... but as a kid, each issue stood somewhat alone, and except for the obvioius cliff-hanger at the end of 59 with the Wasp announcing that she was going to marry him, I never connected ANY of the dots.

It appear more clear to me now, that the stories are plotted out in two to four issue arcs, though the stories are not necessarily set out that way.
If you take issues #51 and 52 as separate one shots, then 54 & 55 (first appearance of the Crimson Cowl and Masters of Evil) are paired together. So does #53 stand with X-Men #45 as a pair, plotted together...
#56 (Death be Not Proud") has to stand with Avengers Annual #2 as a pair...
so that leaves #57-58 for the origin of the Vision... and #59-60 for Yellowjacket. #61 stands alone, as does #62. Then we get to a three part arc with Gene Colan where Hawkeye switches into Goliath II...in #63-65 when we learn his real name and relations in 65

It becomes clear to me that the focus initally is on
51-GiantMan
52-Black Panther
53-Xmen
54-Jarvis
55-Black Knight
56-Cap
Ann #2-Cap & original Avengers
57-Vision
58-Vision
59-YellowJacket
60-Yellowjacket
61-Dr strange/Black knight
62-Black Panther
63-65 Clint/Goliath II
66-68 Vision/Ultron
69- Tony Stark
70-71-Avengers/Squadron Supreme

It seems more obvious than ever, that Roy had intended someplace prior to 57 to remold Hank, and clear the way for Hawkeye/Clint to move in as Goliath II. If the Vision was always intended to betray the Avengers, then this forms a large year long arc, in effect.

If the Vision/Yellowjacket stories are viewed together... then count the number of failed memories, repressed memories, surprise memories that spring from Hank... Once, that he created Ultron... another that he boarded up his suburban lab... another that he was "K-O"-ed by Yellowjacket.. and finally, looking ahead... he is hypnotized by someone into believing that he's the developer of Admantium in #68! No wonder the guys got mental problems. He says as much in early #63 when he says his constant growing must have played a role in his breakdown.

Hell, the guy was "breaking down" in every other storyline. Under that much stress, why would the other Avengers trust him? I'd have retired him for a good long while on the warming bench...not just for a two month honeymoon!

[Ventura]

Okay now, I looked up in my Essential Avengers Volume 3... issues #57-60 of the original Avengers run... just to check out "all the clues" in the first appearance of Yellowjacket!
It was much as I remembered, except it wasn't quite as blatent in revealing or typing the hand on what was coming as I might have expected.

I did dig up at least two references to making a date with the Avengers to discuss something important with them (Jan first, then T'Challa) before Hank vanishes...

That's absolutely right, the "I want to speak to you, T'Challa, about some private matters" reference in #59 was also another tip-off to me, exactly along the same lines as the line in #57 to Jan ("I want to speak with you real soon...").

And, that seemingly gratuitous two-page spread of reveries in #59 also contained another clue (this is a expansion of something I already mentioned in my earlier post). I am quoting from memory because I don't have my Essentials in front of me (I'm at work! :o ), but IIRC, in the Visions' reverie, he is walking with Hawkeye and someone calls him (Vizh) a "crummy android" or something. Yet YJ refers to the Vision as a "synthezoid." So it was apparent to me, that while the world at large might know the term android, only an "insider" would know the term synthezoid. Even T'Challa did not know of the term (in #57), until Hawkeye explained it to him.

Later on, when I can refer to my Essentials, I'll comment on your interesting points about the arcs and Hank's breakdown.

[Ventura]

If the Vision/Yellowjacket stories are viewed together... then count the number of failed memories, repressed memories, surprise memories that spring from Hank... Once, that he created Ultron... another that he boarded up his suburban lab... another that he was "K-O"-ed by Yellowjacket.. and finally, looking ahead... he is hypnotized by someone into believing that he's the developer of Admantium in #68! No wonder the guys got mental problems. He says as much in early #63 when he says his constant growing must have played a role in his breakdown.

Hell, the guy was "breaking down" in every other storyline. Under that much stress, why would the other Avengers trust him? I'd have retired him for a good long while on the warming bench...not just for a two month honeymoon!

I see your point...and a case could be made that Hank was breaking down even prior to the issues you mention.

When Hank returned to the Avengers in #28, he was worried about the effect growing would have on him and that he would not be able to grow as he had before (when he was Giant-Man). As Goliath, he grew but then he got stuck at his 10 foot size. He started looking for a cure, with Bill Foster. They worked on getting him back down to normal size, and in #35 it appeared he was cured, and could now revert to his normal height, as well as shrink and grow. It should be mentioned that Hank refers to the fact that he subjected himself to the "rays of an experimental molecular space transformer..." (yes, I am reunited with my Essentials!) And who knows how many other rays they experimented with?

Anyway, after #35 all seemed well with Hank for a while, until the repressed memory of the lab break-in you mention. While it came to light in #58, it was a flashback to around sometime after the Dragon Man fight (in #41), but because there was much continuous action since #41 (through #44), it's hard to pinpoint exactly when it may have occurred...could have been just after #44...or just after Avengers Annual #1...or after #45..or just after #46 and before #47; or possibly just after #50 and before #51.

And in #46, Hank thinks to himself that he's not useful to the team anymore, since Hercules has joined. This is one of the earliest signs of self-doubt I've seen from Hank (apart from his doubts in #28 and his self-pity when he was stuck at 10 feet). So in #46 he is concerned with re-establishing his control over ants. Then Whirlwind subjects Hank and Jan to Hank's new "reducing ray", which shrinks them against their will. At the end of #46, Cap shines the ray on them again, which reverts them back to normal size, but Hank says they're getting too large a dose! And Cap worries about possible after-effects.

Then in #48-50, Hank has lost his ability to grow (due, he says, to overtaxing his power when growing to 25 feet in #48, along with the many years of straining his molecules when growing). In #50 Jan thinks that his losing his growth power is a blessing in disguise, because then they can both quit and get married. Hey, Jan was a real team player back then...:rolleyes:

In #51 he is again being subjected to rays of some sort (from a "vibrotron"). Then in the very same issue, the Collector shoots him full of rays; this time, it works and Hank can grow--even taller than before! And, the end of #51, Hank is again hooked up to a machine--a "stim-o-lator" (conceived by Iron Man), which makes his growing power permanent.

Interestingly, there was also the recent trauma of time travel (in Avengers Annual #2, which preceded Avengers #57), when Hank came face to face with "himself"...Cap even remarks that Hank is starting to "break". Makes you appreciate how resilient Jan is (apparently getting doused by rays in #46 did not adversely affect her and she seemed to handle meeting her old self in the Annual with more composure than Hank did).

So... even though back then (in the 1960s) he was generally written as being in control (except for a few issues such as #59, 60 and Annual 2) and he was the de facto leader after Cap left (#47), Hank's real persona becomes much clearer if you consider his history of being bombarded by all sorts of rays (prior to #59). His body (and mind) certainly underwent a lot of punishment when you couple the rays with his size-changing. No wonder he broke down!

I cannot wait to read EMH2 (when it comes out as a collection). This timeframe intrigues me.

I still have more to say about the arcs you mention...there will be another post...:)

[Kirk G]

OK, I picked up EMH #5 today, and while I don't want to give too much away, I can say that we weren't far off in the approach at all. Frankly, I'm surprised that they spent as much time explaining things and discussing it behind the scenes as they did. I think they make a good explanation for why the Avengers would play allong.

I just have one fairly minor point that I would argue. Hawkeye isn't supposed to have figured it out. Upon rereading the original story in Avengers #59 and 60, Hawkeye doesn't know, right up to the big unveil, in 60 what's going on.

Also, the ties into the older book (or should I say continuity references) are all valid and obviously carefully researched... but I think a decision was made to let Hawkeye and ALL the others into the secret. In the original, Hawkeye was as shocked as anyone by Jan's bombshell.... but that hasn't occured yet.

(Also in the original, there's some indication that Cap is surprised by the invitation at the start of #60, but by the time he walks through the door and is greeted by Hawkeye, Cap may be having his doubts... but it could be played either way... that he suspects... or that he's surprised... or that he's unsure what to do... I expect we'll see that one next issue.... and from how carefully this one was researched and co-ploted, I expect that it will be just as good.

So all is well...

[Kirk G]

OK, I re-read the EMH II #5 again last night and found another beef. This one can be overlooked, but not ignored.

First, the Black Panther's costume was altered in the original for his appearance with the Avengers in #52. Specifically, the mouth and chin were exposed so that the racist/social unrest angle of accusing a black man and assuming he was guilty, could be a subtext in #52...his first appearance and also that of the Grim Reaper.
But come EMH #5, his face is covered again. I had thought that they left it exposed for several issues. Is that true? When did they cover him up again? I don't have my Essential volume here in front of me.

Second, and more serious...
Look at how the Wasp is drawn.
Look at her costume. Assume that a red cape was added and a tiera. Who would that be? WANDA, the Scarlet Witch

I think Jan has been drawn far too heavy, too chunky, especially in her first appearance in this issue. She stands, stock still, hands to her sides, and her torso just looks too damn heavy to me. In fact, had I not known the storyline, I would have thought that she was several months pregnant. No, not bulging, but with the swelling breasts that characterize a developing pregnancy. (I've sired two kids so I can tell what this looks like in a woman...)

Though later drawings of her show that Jan is a little bit thinner or better proportioned, I still think she's shown as far to heavy... not light, not thin, not waspish, not shapely, not buxxom... just plane chunky. In fact, in later views, though the breasts are not emphasized, I still was drawn to the fact that the bust looks to 'heavy'.... not bulging... just too "matronly." (I always thought of Jan as looking alot like Tinkerbell. Skin tight leotard with exposed arms and legs. Very trim, light, smallish...)

I never got that feeling with any other artist nor in other books. In fact, the gold sequen (sp?) leotard look was in use then, and looked GOOD on her. Why the change? Unless someone in the art department made a mistake or was unfamiliar with her. (Perhaps they used a reference for Wanda by mistake? Certainly, the costume evokes Wanda, except for the lack of headpiece and cape.

I'm disappointed by this. But, I'm still buying the series, cause I enjoy the effort at scripting and co-plotting a companion series around the original stories.

How about you?

[Haunt]

the only image of Jan i have in my head is this one. this is what she's built like, imo.

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4586/wasp31ok1.jpg

[Ventura]

OK, I re-read the EMH II #5 again last night and found another beef. This one can be overlooked, but not ignored.

First, the Black Panther's costume was altered in the original for his appearance with the Avengers in #52. Specifically, the mouth and chin were exposed so that the racist/social unrest angle of accusing a black man and assuming he was guilty, could be a subtext in #52...his first appearance and also that of the Grim Reaper.
But come EMH #5, his face is covered again. I had thought that they left it exposed for several issues. Is that true? When did they cover him up again? I don't have my Essential volume here in front of me.

Second, and more serious...
Look at how the Wasp is drawn.
Look at her costume. Assume that a red cape was added and a tiera. Who would that be? WANDA, the Scarlet Witch

I think Jan has been drawn far too heavy, too chunky, especially in her first appearance in this issue. She stands, stock still, hands to her sides, and her torso just looks too damn heavy to me. In fact, had I not known the storyline, I would have thought that she was several months pregnant. No, not bulging, but with the swelling breasts that characterize a developing pregnancy. (I've sired two kids so I can tell what this looks like in a woman...)

Though later drawings of her show that Jan is a little bit thinner or better proportioned, I still think she's shown as far to heavy... not light, not thin, not waspish, not shapely, not buxxom... just plane chunky. In fact, in later views, though the breasts are not emphasized, I still was drawn to the fact that the bust looks to 'heavy'.... not bulging... just too "matronly." (I always thought of Jan as looking alot like Tinkerbell. Skin tight leotard with exposed arms and legs. Very trim, light, smallish...)

I never got that feeling with any other artist nor in other books. In fact, the gold sequen (sp?) leotard look was in use then, and looked GOOD on her. Why the change? Unless someone in the art department made a mistake or was unfamiliar with her. (Perhaps they used a reference for Wanda by mistake? Certainly, the costume evokes Wanda, except for the lack of headpiece and cape.

I'm disappointed by this. But, I'm still buying the series, cause I enjoy the effort at scripting and co-plotting a companion series around the original stories.

How about you?

The Jan costume--at least the incorrect coloring (red!) in the EMH2 preview pages--caught my attention, too. In the original issues, at the time, she was wearing the yellow sequinned costume with with the side panels on the hips (over a read bodysuit). This yellow sequinned costume was introduced in #45 (by Don Heck). She wore this costume in #53, and from #56-#60 (artist was J. Buscema). In #63 (after she came back from her honeymoon), Gene Colan made it look different in #63-#65 (sometimes it had a skirt, or a belt, and flaring shoulders), but it was still supposed to be that yellow/red costume, or something very similar to it. As for her body type, she was drawn like every other Buscema or Heck female: sexy, in shape, curvy, a typical 1960s superheroine body. Not particularly skinny or delicate, she seemed to have the same body as the Black Widow or Wanda back then. Maybe on a couple of occasions, Don and John drew her as a bit shorter than Wanda. It wasn't until later, when Perez and some other artists became prominent, and started drawing women (and men) with different body types, that Jan seemed smaller than other heroines.

As for T'Challa: when he joined the Avengers in #52, he had the half mask (unlike his original costume, back in FF #52, a couple of years earlier, and he had just appeared in Cap's book with the full face mask). The half face mask continued for just a few issues, and then, all of a sudden, in Avengers #56, he was wearing the full face mask again! And he continued to do so. So yes, it is accurate, if in EMH2, he is shown with the full face mask.

[Ventura]

It seems more obvious than ever, that Roy had intended someplace prior to 57 to remold Hank, and clear the way for Hawkeye/Clint to move in as Goliath II. If the Vision was always intended to betray the Avengers, then this forms a large year long arc, in effect.



Schizoid Hank as Yellowjacket in #59 was an interesting character with an offbeat personality, but when Roy had "sane" Hank become YJ permanently (in #63), I wondered scratched my head and wondered "why???" Of what possible use could he (Hank) be to the team with just a shrinking power and some silly electric blasts? Why on erath would Roy want the team to have two people with carbon-copy shrinking powers? And Hank becoming YJ rendered Jan even more useless than she'd been before. As I recall, she didn't even suit up in her Wasp uniform for a few issues, she just wore civilian mini-skirts or dresses. And frankly, Hank's most impressive moment after becoming YJ was in #68, when it was his brain and courage--and not his powers--that defeated Ultron.

So...your comment about clearing "the way for Hawkeye/Clint to move in as Goliath" made me think: perhaps this move was less about Hank and more about beefing up Clint's role. After all, by this time (1969), Clint was no longer the rebellious outsider. He didn't have Cap to spar with anymore and Natasha was no longer a regular character in the book, so his character development had kind of stalled (luckily, he still retained his wisecracking ways). Why not give Clint new, more exciting powers so he'd be able to play a more prominent role?

Then...couple this with the notion of the "year-long story arcs" we've deduced that Roy was writing back then. I think I'd mentioned that #63 could be considered the start of such an arc. #63-#74 is the establishment of the Clint/Goliath, Panther, Vision, Jan and YJ team, with regular appearances by Cap, Iron Man and Thor. Everything seems good and stable.

Exactly a year later (in terms of issues), a new arc begins, with #75, when Wanda and Pietro are brought back to the team. Whom did they replace in the-then core group of Avengers? Yep, Hank (YJ) and Jan. So...my theory is that Roy made Hank YJ so Hank could be later "disposed of" without much bother. (A bonus is that Clint got better powers for a while).

Now, why the need to get rid of Hank and Jan? Because Roy wanted to develop the story of the Vision and he needed a female character to do so. The Vision--the brooding, android outsider-- had became a very popular Marvel character in a relatively short time (I think he even won some sort of fan poll back then) and what better way to develop him than by enmeshing him in a romance with a human? Naturally, back then, it wouldn't do to have the Vizh attracted to the married Jan...so that's why Wanda was brought back, to function as the team's token female (remember, this was 1969) and to serve as a catalyst for the Vision's story. (And back then, she was joined at the hip to Pietro, so he had to return, too).

So...if we accept the idea that Roy wrote in year-long arcs (and I think we do), then it seems Hank became YJ to further the story of the Vision.

And it took another year, but then the blossoming Vizh-Wanda romance kicked off another arc (starting about #89), and their tentative feelings played a large part in--and added immeasurably to- -perhaps the most famous arc of all- -the Kree-Skrull War.

[Kirk G]

Yes, I agree with your points.
In fact, I suspect, with the comment Cap makes about Hank being close to the edge in Annual #2, that he was beginning his plotting way back then.
Yes, the removal of Jan and Hank in favor of Pietro and Wanda does make sense specifically to set up the Vision romance... and there was a hint of a triangle with Clint also.
PS: Do you know when the FIRST time Clint's name was used in the original series? I found it off-putting that Black Widow keeps referring to him as Hawkeye during their phone call...(but a nice touch that Dum-Dum calls her for the nerve gas test. What ever happened to the idea that she might have had too much in that failed test... or was it only supposed to be a worry in Clint's mind?)

[Kirk G]

Yes, Ventura, I recall the Black Panther's mask jumping around. Since #56 was the first one that I bought off the rack, I realize now that I had avoided getting into buying #52-55 because of what I had thought was goofy looking.

[Ventura]

Yes, I agree with your points.
PS: Do you know when the FIRST time Clint's name was used in the original series? I found it off-putting that Black Widow keeps referring to him as Hawkeye during their phone call...(but a nice touch that Dum-Dum calls her for the nerve gas test. What ever happened to the idea that she might have had too much in that failed test... or was it only supposed to be a worry in Clint's mind?)

That 2 page spread in #59 (depicting the thoughts of Jan, T'Challa, the Vision and Hawkeye) was so gratuitous--except that it served to illustrate: a) that poor Hank had been working so hard lately, and b) to the masses, the Vision was looked as an android (so when YJ referred to him as a synthezoid in the same issue, that was a clue that YJ had inside knowledge of the Avengers). The appearance of Natasha and the nerve gas was never developed, as far as I know. I think you are right, that panel was just to show that Hawkeye was thinking of her...

Hawkeye's real name was revealed in Avengers #64,May 1969, towards the end of that issue. If you haven't read that issue I won't tell you the details. Prior to that issue, no one in the comics had ever called him by his first name (or last name)! He was always called...Hawkeye, even by his lover Natasha, and this dates back to their first appearances in Tales of Suspense (when Hawk and Natasha were foes of Iron Man). Check out his first appearance and origin in Tales of Suspense #57, Sept. 1964 (it's in one of the Iron Man Essentials volumes), even in his origin story, no real name is given! It's hilarious.

So...from 1964 through the first half of 1969, he was always called Hawkeye. By everyone. :rolleyes:

[Kirk G]

Yeah, I recall this. I read all those issues a long time ago, and have flipped through them on occassion. I just couldn't recall if the first name was used before that big reveal at the end of #65 or not. I do recall it all vividly and the significance of the name.
But someone pointed out that at one time, Stan may have been intending to establish that Clint was actually Steve Roger's son from a relationship in the 1940s before he vanished. Clint was either put up for adoption, or never told about his true father... but it would explain alot about why Clint has so many skills and endurance, etc.
But this has never been confirmed, nor has it been completely contradicted by what Roy Thomas created with the revealed background of CLint and relations in #63-65.

[mushroom2703]

Ihaven't read any of EMH's II yet, since I'm holding out so i can have a lovely hardback to go alongside my EMH I hardback. I really can't wait though. Shame Kolins didn't pencil this but casey loves the avengers, this will rock

[Ventura]

But someone pointed out that at one time, Stan may have been intending to establish that Clint was actually Steve Roger's son from a relationship in the 1940s before he vanished. Clint was either put up for adoption, or never told about his true father... but it would explain alot about why Clint has so many skills and endurance, etc.
But this has never been confirmed, nor has it been completely contradicted by what Roy Thomas created with the revealed background of CLint and relations in #63-65.

Interesting...I've never heard of, or read about, this theory about Clint and Steve. It would make sense, I guess...and they both do have blonde hair. :)
And it would make their initial contentious relationship (in the early Kooky Quartet days) all the more ironic.

Does anyone know where I can read more about this idea--was it in a letters column, or a Stan interview, or--?

Would make a good What If? story!

[Kirk G]

This was mentioned here on CBR... but I suspect it might also have come up in the letters page or in a column on Captain America or Kirby Avengers in the pages of TJKC. I just don't recall the exact source, but it really started to ring bells with me... I thought there was a lot of merrit to this, except Roy took the series in another direction. If Stan EVER had this in mind, he never acted upon it.... (and his memory is so poor, there's no chance of confirming it now...)

[protege]

Couple questions;
1) When did the Black Widow join SHIELD?
2) When did the Fantastic Four get SHIELD liasons?

[Kirk G]

Couple questions;
1) When did the Black Widow join SHIELD?
I think she became an operative certainly by Avengers #43 cause she's working for them against the same team that has her husband, the Red Guardian! But by the time she's made an Avenger in #46 on Avengers day, she's on their payroll as well. (I can't believe she would still wear funeral black even then!!!)


2) When did the Fantastic Four get SHIELD liasons?

I suspect it was shortly after the Maggia took over their headquarters in FF #101. But I had never heard it STATED as fact, like it was in this issue. (It was probably just supposed to be a joke. Sitwell was originally assigned to Tony Stark as a pain in his ass back around Tales of Suspense #88 or so... just in time to save him from the Grey Gargoil ... possibly the most unusal pairing of villian and hero in the entire silver age, but it worked!)

[Ventura]

In "real time", Natasha was recruited by Fury to work as a SHIELD agent in Avengers #38 (coincidentally, also the debut of Hercules in the book). She'd been in the Avengers book since #29, initially as a (brainwashed) villain and then as associate, and Hawkeye petitioned for her membership. Hank was against it. In #38, Fury asked her to go on a mission "behind the Bamboo Curtain" (Marvel 60s speak for "evil Communists.") Fury asked her not to tell anyone, including Hawkeye, so she told him--and the rest of the Avengers--that she was leaving (amazingly, though, she also told them of her destination--the Bamboo Curtain). :confused:

Her Bamboo Curtain exploits continued as a sub-plot for several issues, even though the Avengers themselves were involved in other battles in the USA (and Hawkeye had a broken heart--60s Marvel soap opera at its finest). The arc came to an end in #44, with the famous Red Guardian-Cap battle. Hawkeye and Natasha were reunited. Fury awarded Natasha a special medal for her bravery.

Now, this (#38-#44) all happened in 1967. I'm not familiar with all of the backstory that's been concocted for Natasha since then (her early meeting with Wolverine, etc.), so she may have had an earlier association with SHIELD prior to what was shown in Avengers #38. But this is how it played out in the Avengers book in '67.

Kirk:
thanks for the info about the Cap-Clint proposed storyline. I'll take a look at other CBR threads, my old issues of JKCollector, etc.