Reed Richards acting out of character? [Archive]

Kirk G

01-10-2007, 06:50 PM

Okay, so many fans have complained that several of their favorite heroes are acting out of character in either Civil War, or Frontline...

We'll agree that Reed is alternately too quiet, too complacent, or too blind to those around him who are taking up other positions.

Now for a few explanations.

Before the big reveal or big twist comes out in Civil War #7 (last projected for February 21st at last word), what (if anything) do you think is the cause for Reed's odd behavior?

Choose from the offered list, but feel free to offer other solutions, explanations or complaints.

Personally, one glaring one just jumped out at me in the sixth issue of CW...when Reed complains to Tony over a headpiece that he's been in surgery for the last 36 hours on Clor... Since when is Reed a brain surgeon?

bulbasteve

01-10-2007, 07:05 PM

agrich

01-10-2007, 07:15 PM

Reed is Mephisto in disguise.

The real Reed has stretched himself into the form of a grieving mother, Miriam Sharpe.

Doom Hammer

01-10-2007, 07:19 PM

I'm gunna go with growing/changing. Mostly cause I'M not all that familiar with him and it looks good enough usually to me (except Frontline I guess, but is ANYONE in character there?)

And it's cyborg surgery anyway...

Exactly. So he's less brain surgeon, more robot mechanic.

And come on. Reed has invented devices to overhaul the ecosystems of entire planets, and took part in the creation of the universe. Are you going to begrudge him THAT particular expertise? Come on, it's not brain surger...er...it's not rocket science.

the Dagman

01-10-2007, 07:25 PM

Exactly. So he's less brain surgeon, more robot mechanic.

And come on. Reed has invented devices to overhaul the ecosystems of entire planets, and took part in the creation of the universe. Are you going to begrudge him THAT particular expertise? Come on, it's not brain surger...er...it's not rocket science.

You're right. It's not rocket science. Too bad. SINCE A ROCKET SCIENTIST IS WHAT REED IS! :eek:

TotalWorldDomination

01-10-2007, 07:58 PM

seeso

01-10-2007, 11:19 PM

I am of the mind that Millar bends characters to suit his needs.

But I really wanted to choose Space Phantom...

The Shadow

01-10-2007, 11:48 PM

Reed is not out of character

StoneGold

01-11-2007, 12:04 AM

Granted, it's one of the extremes of his character. The opposite extreme being the Latveria invasion, I guess. You could almost claim that this extreme could be partially fueled by the unmitigated disaster that ended up being.

brundlefly

01-11-2007, 09:10 AM

Exaggerated? Sure, but not totally out of character for Reed. He's been shown in the past to get completely wrapped up in concepts and experiments and to neglect/forget the human and emotional side and perspective on things. And to also be a total control freak, which lends itself nicely to the pro-reg side of Civil War. At least he's been portrayed as feeling conflicted and guilty on occasion. It's Stark who's being painted heavily as "unrepentant Civil War main villain, who'll lock up all his friends and allies who don't agree with him, with more money/power as his main motive." My opinion anyway. We do get the occasional bits of humanity and conflict for him as well, (like the Miriam Sharpe scenes) but I was really hoping that this whole crossover would be less black-and-white, Evil Empire versus Sympathetic Resistance than it ended up being. Since I knew that route meant the leaders of the Pro-Reg side (Tony and Reed) would end up the "bad guys" and have certain CW writers portraying them as complete and total villains since that's easier, instead of as heroes stuck in a diffiicult situation and having to make hard choices that put them at odds with their friends and allies.

Mark Thorson

01-11-2007, 09:11 AM

He's not so much out of character as being written as the "self absorbed scientist" to the extreme. Of course, after his past stance on registration awhile back, him suddenly having the persecuted uncle was a bit forced.

Magneto Rocks

01-11-2007, 09:31 AM

I think this poll is a little unfair as it leaves only one possibility for him acting in character; that he's changing. THere should at least have been more like in character in main book but out in the tie-ins etc.

Yeah, I think he's IC in the main book and he's my third favourite marvel character. Mostly because I see everything in CW as a logical development from one of my favourite FF stories of recent years, "Authoritive Action". In Frontline, no. In FF, no. Although after his *pun* fantastic special, I have every confidence McDuffie will restore that.

PS: It's hardly that the writer is unfamiliar. He's written Reed before, just check out Wolverine. Plus at least he's DOING something with the Fantastic Four which is ten times what can be said for Bendis' House of M.

agrich

01-11-2007, 09:51 AM

I've never bought the "Reed has always been an absorbed and focused scientist, wrapped up in his experiments" argument for Reed's behavior.

I won't claim to have read every issue of Fantastic Four throughout their history, but based on what I have read over the years, a few things come to mind.

1. He has a certain respect for the dangerous aspects and weirdness of the Negative Zone, enough so that I don't think he'd be planning to create 50 different portals into it and imprison heroes there.

2. None of his previous experiments have involved cloning, certainly not of a powerful God like Thor. I just can't fathom what would make him say, hmm, yeah, let's develop a clone of Thor.

3. The experiments I can recall him getting wrapped up in over the years tended to be about solving mysteries of the universe, bettering human knowledge and experience -- exploring, discovery, etc. Right from the beginning. And what have we seen him get involved in during Civil War? Building a giant prison and cloning a dead God.

So yeah, I don't really see very many of these things as being in character. Absorbed in experiments and discovery at the expense of things like human interaction, sure, but to see him getting all excited about building a prison in the negative zone and thinking cloning Thor was a good idea, no.

Magneto Rocks

01-11-2007, 10:00 AM

. He has a certain respect for the dangerous aspects and weirdness of the Negative Zone, enough so that I don't think he'd be planning to create 50 different portals into it and imprison heroes there.

Hey, he did it before to imprison villains.

2. None of his previous experiments have involved cloning, certainly not of a powerful God like Thor. I just can't fathom what would make him say, hmm, yeah, let's develop a clone of Thor.

To be fair, it's not a clone per se. It's more Tony said "Here's a hair, what can you do?" And Reed was able to develop what I assume to be a duplicate appearance and perhaps advanced AI for a cyborg created by Hank Pym. This is Reed Richards- the man can do almost anything if he sets his mind to it.

3. The experiments I can recall him getting wrapped up in over the years tended to be about solving mysteries of the universe, bettering human knowledge and experience -- exploring, discovery, etc. Right from the beginning. And what have we seen him get involved in during Civil War? Building a giant prison and cloning a dead God.

True but it's not like he has a choice- the FF are the most public super-team on Earth, they can't avoid this conflict. So he needs to pick a side and take a leading role on that side. And we've always seen that when Reed gets devoted to something, he gets OBSESSED.

So yeah, I don't really see very many of these things as being in character. Absorbed in experiments and discovery at the expense of things like human interaction, sure, but to see him getting all excited about building a prison in the negative zone and thinking cloning Thor was a good idea, no.

CYBORG Thor.

And we've only seen him really get excited about the Fifty STates Initiative. The only thing we've really seen him say on the Negative Zone Prison is very grimly say that it's classified information.

...Coming to which, pro-reg have AWFUL leaks problems. I mean firstly a guy who drives a truck knows 42 is a prison, then EVERYONE knows 42 is a prison in the Negative Zone and that he's recruiting super-villains and that he has Venom and Bullseye (before they're ever deployed) and so on.

ivesaidway2much

01-11-2007, 10:14 AM

CYBORG Thor.

Cyborgs are part-human (maybe, part-god? in this case) and part-machine. At least some cloning had to be involved in his creation, otherwise he'd be android Thor.

Exo

01-11-2007, 10:24 AM

There's no ulterior motive (no skrull or space phantom) to Reeds "odd" behaviour rather that the characterisation serves Millar's taste. Character interpretation varies from writer to writer just as much it does us readers and I enjoy Millars writing.

When 400,000 people read a book you're always going to have people saying it's not the way they know the characters. Stan did them differently from Scott Lobdell and every writer in between had his own take. Hank Pym was a hero and then he was a wife-beater. Tony was a paragon of virtue and then he was an alcoholic sleeping in the street. The nice thing about Marvel is that it constantly evolves. I wrote the characters the way I knew them growing up... Reed is a distracted scientist, Sue loves him despite his ego and flaws and tries her best to hold the family together, Tony has big grand schemes (like the original Avengers) and dodgy connections (he's a former weapons dealer and munitions man at SHIELD) who's big schemes often blow up in his face.

But even as far back as the first few issues of Fantastic Four you can see that Reed easily becomes obsessed with work to the detriment of the people he loves. Even their origin suggests that as he steals a rocket and endangers the lives of his friends. He's absolutely noble, but it's tinged with a weird, scientific coldness that's sent Sue fumbling into Namor's trunks more than once in the past. This is what makes the Marvel characters very real to me. They're flawed heroes. They do their best and what they think is right, but not everyone agrees with them.

I for one didn't approve the return of Norman Osborn but it happend and now he's supposedly the head of the New Thunderbolts. It's pure fiction people, manipulated in order to progress ones stories. Simple as that and I think Jenkins said it best:

It's a recurring theme on the internet that the most vocal fans are the most "connected" to a particular character. Back when i used to write Spidey I'd see the occasional criticism that suggested "Spidey would never do that!" To this I would always respond, "Of course Spidey would do that! I just made him do it, didn't I?"

I make the best effort I can to stay true to MY version of what a character would act like. I'm not sure about being connected to you in particular, or the person below you on this message thread, or the first person, or whatever. I'm connected because i realize you invite me into your homes every month as you read my books. I try to provide the best entertainment I can because I appreciate and acknowledge the fact that you spend your money on my work. Most people in this business truly understand that.

StoneGold

01-11-2007, 10:29 AM

Cyborgs are part-human (maybe, part-god? in this case) and part-machine. At least some cloning had to be involved in his creation, otherwise he'd be android Thor.

Say that using cloning techniques, I grow a liver. Now I wrap a robot around that liver. Am I playing god?

garin

01-11-2007, 10:45 AM

My feeling on the origin of Clor (based on no no evidence whatsoever) is that they began by earnestly trying to bring Thor back to life, and the cyborg stuff came only after it was obvious it didn't work properly (as a means of control.) I like the idea of Reed taking Clor out to the hammer site to see if they can bring him back.

I've no doubt this'll be contradicted soon enough, though.

agrich

01-11-2007, 10:51 AM

He used cells from the original Thor in the creation of a new Thor. I dunno, that strikes me as pretty close to what a clone is. Wouldn't a cyborg have to involve more of the original Thor than just a hair?

I actually didn't know he'd imprisoned villains in the negative zone before. When?

As for the above, no one is saying (or at least I'm not) that writers don't have the right to intepret a character how every they think is correct. They do, obviously. But fans have every bit as much right to say, based on my understanding of the character throughout his history, your take on the character rings false to me.

Sijo

01-11-2007, 10:56 AM

I don't buy either Millar's or Jenkins' excuses. They aren't writing their own original characters, but well-stablished ones. It's not just the matter of some fans being insulted that their favorite character is changed. This is serialized fiction, and characters ARE supposed to be consistent from one story to another. Can they evolve in the process? Sure, but it has to be explained. You can't just have a character behave out of character just because you want him to (as Millar is doing in Civil War) or totally change the concept of a character just because you feel like it (like Jenkins did with Speedball.) It comes across (to us the readers, for whom this stuff is meant and who pay for it) as selfish or irresponsible. Sure, they're getting away with it now- but remember, things like the Clone Saga were popular at the time, and are now remembered as embarrassing blunders.

Exo

01-11-2007, 11:10 AM

Can they evolve in the process? Sure, but it has to be explained.

The characters are behaving "extreme" because of their extreme situation (you have to remember that the war has only been going on nonstop for a couple of weeks MarvelTime). I wouldn't necessarily say Reeds out of character for cloning Thor just because it hasn't been done before in the past. I'd understand the reason why you object if you're a hardcore follower of said character but it's definitely not an insult to MY intellect because it serves the story.

ivesaidway2much

01-11-2007, 11:33 AM

Say that using cloning techniques, I grow a liver. Now I wrap a robot around that liver. Am I playing god? So you believe the Pro-regs went through the trouble of cloning Thor to reproduce his god-like blood filtering liver? Although, now that I think about it his liver would have limitless medical potential. But, my guess would be that cyborg Thor is more human/god than machine simply because I doubt it would be worth the effort or cost to produce a machine that was more efficent than a god's physiology.

But really I would think that most of this is out-of-character for Reed. Since given evil, Hitler Thor's relative inexperience, Richards would be more than intelligent enough to realize any number of pro-reg heroes armed with an image inducer and fake Mjolnir would be significantly more effective than cyborg Thor.

Capt USA

01-11-2007, 01:38 PM

I agree with the person that said that this poll is unfair. Too me Reed is 'devolving' as a character returning somewhat to his original roots where he would spend too much time 'experimenting' instead of looking at the big picture.

Reed has always been about knowledge for knowledge sake, damn the consequences attitude. It's what created the Fantastic Four, it's what led to his discovery of the Negative Zone, allowed other companies(evil) to try and take over his business for the sheer privilege of his patents. Reed in charge of his technology is a good thing, his technology being used by other people is a bad thing, it's always been that way with the FF.

Alan2099

01-11-2007, 01:45 PM

I actually didn't know he'd imprisoned villains in the negative zone before. When?
It was a pretty recent storyline where he was tricked into doing it by false data and later admitted it as a mistake.

Zero Hunter

01-11-2007, 02:09 PM

Buster-X

01-11-2007, 02:37 PM

Who isnt acting out of character these days? As someone previously mentioned it seems the writers are bending long established characters to better suit their unfathomable stories.

Kirk G

01-11-2007, 03:41 PM

What bugs me about them using the Negative Zone is that they seem to have totaly ignored the danger that place is. Do you think any of guards or whoever it is running the prison would stand a snowballs chance if Annihilas had found the prison? He would have torn through whatever they had there. What the hell makes them think that 50 portals linked to that place would not sooner or latter be used to cross over to Earth by either Annihilas or Blasstar or any of the other nutjobs in the Zone. I don't care how well prepared Reed and Stark think they are if Annihilass had shown up at the prison with all the forces he has been shown to have under his control in the Annihialtion Wave no amoutn of defences they had would have been enough.

Maybe that is the reason Joe Q greenlighted the Annihilation mini series in the first palce was to get all the bad guys out of the Negative Zone so that glaring plothole would be covered up so that Millar could have his "Guantonamo" in his story.

I agree.
This was absolutely my first thought when I first heard about building a Holding facility in the negative zone.
First, doesn't anyone remember that Reed has almost lost his life at least twice entering the zone... back in FF #51 and ten issues later in #61? By issue #64, he was having Ben remove the core so that it couldn't be openned up again.

Since Byrne drew his famous sideways episode that featured the insemination of Valaria in the negative zone, why do people think that it is safe?

Even Rick and Capt Marvel have always feared being in the Zone during their turns. Didn't Rick become a target for Annilius after one such transfer?

And now, how do they figure they're making a prizon there, with artificial gravity, air supply and raw materials applenty floating around in space?

It just doesn't make sense!

Shellhead

01-11-2007, 04:33 PM

The Reed Richards of Counter-Earth, aka the purple behemoth known as The Brute, was last seen leaping into a Negative Zone portal, right? (A long time ago, back when Wolfman and Perez were the creative team on the FF, before they went to DC to work on the New Teen Titans.) Anyway, is it possible that this is the Reed Richards of Counter-Earth that we're seeing in Civil War? Maybe he found a way to develop stretching powers like his counterpart. If so, that would be a cool reveal that would go a long way towards placating irritated fans.

Norrin Radd

01-11-2007, 04:37 PM

I dunno...let's analyze this bit by bit.

1. Reed joins the pro-registration side: Seeing as how Reed's usually been portrayed as a humanitarian/libertarian who, in at least one clear instance, was against this type of law, I don't it see his becoming pro-reg as very credible. I disagree with it, but political beliefs aren't black and white and they change occasionally so I'm willing to let this one go...

2. Reed clones Thor: What I have more difficulties letting go is cloning a living, sentient being (not to mention friend). There are so many ethical boundries broken here, that it seems like something that would be associated with the High Evolutionary or Doctor Doom. Maybe if nothing came of it and if Clor became a male shampoo model who lived happily ever after or something, I could dismiss it as a quirky moment in the career of Mister Fantastic and leave it at that. But that's not what happens here. Oh wait...maybe he's not really a clone but a robot or cyborg or something. Well, that doesn't really change anything...

3. Reed's clone/cyborg/whatever kills someone: Yes, the clone/cyborg is used to fight his comrades and it ends up killing a colleague. Note: Reed has shown mercy to his worst enemies and once saved the life of a dude who regularly commits cosmic genocide, so you think that with him being so cherishing of life, he'd be a little more careful. Okay, this is quite ludicrous so far, but let's be fair and give Reed the benefit of the doubt by admitting that he didn't mean for things to turn out quite this way.

4. Reed feels justified in creating a clone/cyborg/whatever that has killed somebody: If a noble guy like Reed actually did end up accidently killing an ex-comrade (come on...he's not even a genuine villain), you'd think he'd be pretty damn choked up about it. Marvel heroes usually go all deep and angsty in such extremely rare occurences. But instead of breaking down at the funeral, overwhelmed with waves of angst and guilt, Reed has other matters to tend with....such as noting that Peter Parker is suddenly acting all suspicious! Guess what? Reed is also the pro-reg side's resident SS Agent!

I mean, come on, I could maybe take one...barely, two...if I ignored good storytelling, three...with a bottle of rum, but all four? I don't think so. Yes, by any reasonable definition of the phrase, Richards is acting out of character. People can justify anything. I could justify something insane like Gwen Stacy sleeping with Norman Osborn if I wanted to (oh...wait), but that doesn't mean it would make any sense, given what we know about the character already.

RazzleDazzle

01-12-2007, 12:54 PM

The writer has a poor concept of Reed Richards. Millar's NEVER written the Fantastic Four in their book and the cameos of the F4 didn’t impress me. (UF4 doesn't truly count since he created the UF4 and Ultimate Reed is an wholy different creature than MU Reed.)

In the said cameo Reed making a program that records his voice to ‘tend’ to his kids. This is chilling and just seems so wrong after the events of Unthinkable where his son and daughter were tortured. In fact, since Unthinkable, Reed has shown extraordinary warmth to his kids in Fantastic Four; the main book about Reed Richards.

Besides, Reed went through the very same thing before Civil War in FF: Foes. The Mad Thinker messed with Reed’s numbers that lead Reed to believe that his family was in danger and did the SAME thing in this mini series as he is doing with Civil War. You would think Reed would learn not to trust the numbers and trust his family input more. And yes, it is canon, because the prison in FF:Foes is the base for the 42 prison.

Civil War Files suggest that once again Reed’s being manipulated, but this time by Stark. You would think Reed would be a bit wiser than to trust the numbers?

It can’t be character growth, because he hasn’t learned from pervious mistakes and is falling back to old patterns judging the way how Millar writes Reed. The character is devolving.

Black Atom

01-12-2007, 01:05 PM

The characters are behaving "extreme" because of their extreme situation (you have to remember that the war has only been going on nonstop for a couple of weeks MarvelTime). I wouldn't necessarily say Reeds out of character for cloning Thor just because it hasn't been done before in the past. I'd understand the reason why you object if you're a hardcore follower of said character but it's definitely not an insult to MY intellect because it serves the story.

Given that Reed Richards has faced the destruction of Earth on multiple occasions without resorting to such "extremes", this argument just doesn't hold water. The problem with Civil War is you have to ignore everything you know about not just the characters, but the whole damned Marvel Universe for it to work. Given the sheer magnitude of things these heroes have faced such as countries razed, planets eaten and realities destroyed, the idea that this little Civil War tiff is pushing these guys to these extremes is just funny.

Magneto Rocks

01-12-2007, 01:45 PM

Given that Reed Richards has faced the destruction of Earth on multiple occasions without resorting to such "extremes", this argument just doesn't hold water. The problem with Civil War is you have to ignore everything you know about not just the characters, but the whole damned Marvel Universe for it to work. Given the sheer magnitude of things these heroes have faced such as countries razed, planets eaten and realities destroyed, the idea that this little Civil War tiff is pushing these guys to these extremes is just funny.

No, it's not. Personally speaking I'd rather go fight in a foreign land than have to kill my best friend and have my family disown you; dunno about you.

Exo

01-12-2007, 01:53 PM

Given that Reed Richards has faced the destruction of Earth on multiple occasions

Not to mention possibly every other superhero in Marvel history or the constant revival of supposedly dead people. It's fiction which solely serves to entertain us readers. Some people tend to forget this because they hold false avatars above all else. You keep listing the times MU's been on the brink of destruction like it should mean something in comicbooks. Should the writers be forced to write the same typical stories for all eternity? So what if Reed cloned Thor, it's bold of Millar for going through with this and I love the story so far.

Black Atom

01-12-2007, 02:17 PM

No, it's not. Personally speaking I'd rather go fight in a foreign land than have to kill my best friend and have my family disown you; dunno about you.

What spurred those events to happen in the first place didn't really make sense, though. That's problem.

Not to mention possibly every other superhero in Marvel history or the constant revival of supposedly dead people. It's fiction which solely serves to entertain us readers.

But it doesn't entertain a lot of us. Think of it this way: let's say they made a Star Trek movie in which Picard encounters some kind of space anomaly, has a nervous breakdown and kills Commander Riker. While that sort of development might be entertaining to someone who's never seen Star Trek, the rest of us know that the Enterprise encounters anomalies on a weekly basis. We'd just think it was stupid--so much so, that it robs the situation of it's gravity.

Some people tend to forget this because they hold false avatars above all else. You keep listing the times MU's been on the brink of destruction like it should mean something in comicbooks. Should the writers be forced to write the same typical stories for all eternity?

Nope. Just good ones.

So what if Reed cloned Thor, it's bold of Millar for going through with this and I love the story so far.

That's fine. I'm just trying to explain why it's harder for some of us to buy into.

Exo

01-12-2007, 02:42 PM

But it doesn't entertain a lot of us.

Your devotion to certain aspects and said characters keeps you from enjoying the story to it's fullest? I do think however there are more people who enjoy the story than those who do not. ~300k copies are sold with each issue gone by and I for one do not waste money on comic books I don't enjoy reading.

Nope. Just good ones.

Subjective, which makes this more difficult to argue for/against. You don't think the story is good whereas I do.

That's fine. I'm just trying to explain why it's harder for some of us to buy into.

It's perfectly understandable that you'd feel this way but I've grown tired of these wild accusations that Tony's under the influence of Kang/extremist, Miriam Sharp is Loki in disguise or Reed being a skrull/Space Phantom. There isn't an outside explanation other than it's Millars way of interpreting the characters. Some people like it, the more faithful obviously do not.

John Nowak

01-12-2007, 03:58 PM

I do think however there are more people who enjoy the story than those who do not. ~300k copies are sold with each issue gone by and I for one do not waste money on comic books I don't enjoy reading.

Remember back when Rob Liefeld was a fan favorite artist selling around a million copies of his books? I remember people using that to prove how good he was.

Tobias March

01-12-2007, 04:40 PM

Not to mention possibly every other superhero in Marvel history or the constant revival of supposedly dead people. It's fiction which solely serves to entertain us readers. Some people tend to forget this because they hold false avatars above all else. You keep listing the times MU's been on the brink of destruction like it should mean something in comicbooks. Should the writers be forced to write the same typical stories for all eternity? So what if Reed cloned Thor, it's bold of Millar for going through with this and I love the story so far.

Yup, I mean by rights the cast of Lost should all be in shock, but the writers design these little character moments (whether the writing's good is another matter entirely) for us viewers in the real world. I mean if we want to get pedantic about it - why have the characters only aged ten years at most in the past 40?

I'm reserving judgement on Civil War until it's over. As such Reed's behaviour serves the purposes of the story. If I decide it was a rubbish story afterwards - well then I'm sure I'll have plenty of reasons why to point to.

Kirk G

01-12-2007, 07:21 PM

I'm reserving judgement on Civil War until it's over. As such Reed's behaviour serves the purposes of the story. If I decide it was a rubbish story afterwards - well then I'm sure I'll have plenty of reasons why to point to.

The only problem with this, is that if you wait until the end, you've now invested a minimum of $21 for the seven issues, plus tax, plus possibly another 33 dollars for Frontline... plus whatever extra issues that you've invested in.

"Gee, I hope I don't feel that it sucks when this is all over with...":rolleyes:

filthysize

01-12-2007, 10:31 PM

I don't think his actions are that out-of-character. Given the choice, I believe that Reed would have chosen Tony's side and did the things he did. I do think, however, that Millar tends to stereotype his characters, and that comes across badly in his portrayal of Tony and Reed. Millar's a great storyteller and all (and I'm always a sucker for his books), but man, his characters are so damn shallow.

He has one badass/smirky/wiseass/one-liner archetype for all of his characters and then disguise them with stereotypes. Sprinkle some lame jokes for Spidey. Add some hokey "old chum" dialect for Cap. Toss in some cold scientist talk for Reed. If you cover up the art, all of his dialogue sound like they're coming from one guy, doing action movie one-liners (and Millar's very, very good at that, admittedly).

I honestly think there would be less of a complain of Reed acting out of character if it was some other writer doing the same story, writing Reed in his correct "voice".

What's up with THE FRIGGIN' PUNISHER telling Spidey and Cage to get a room? What?

agrich

01-13-2007, 08:48 AM

The only problem with this, is that if you wait until the end, you've now invested a minimum of $21 for the seven issues, plus tax, plus possibly another 33 dollars for Frontline... plus whatever extra issues that you've invested in.

"Gee, I hope I don't feel that it sucks when this is all over with...":rolleyes:

I'm sure it's possible for someone to enjoy Frontline even if they didn't like the way Civil War turned out. Or vice versa.

I've been to movies or watched TV shows where I didn't care for the ending -- that doesn't mean the whole movie/show was a waste of time, it just means I didn't like the way they wrapped up their story.

It'd be nice if I could get through a year without spending $20 on comics that I ended up being disappointed with, but that's pretty much never going to happen. Just this year I've got plenty of money tied up in lousy comics like the Spider-Woman origin, Ms. Marvel, Ultimate Power, etc. Of course it's a matter of taste -- some people loved those books. Just like I'm sure some people will love Civil War when it's all over with, and some will hate it.

garin

01-13-2007, 11:00 AM

But it doesn't entertain a lot of us. Think of it this way: let's say they made a Star Trek movie in which Picard encounters some kind of space anomaly, has a nervous breakdown and kills Commander Riker. While that sort of development might be entertaining to someone who's never seen Star Trek, the rest of us know that the Enterprise encounters anomalies on a weekly basis. We'd just think it was stupid--so much so, that it robs the situation of it's gravity. That's a poor analogy. If half of Starfleet turned "evil" and they were forced to fight their former friends, worry about what would happen to their families back on Earth, and live in hiding, they might very well be under more stress and consider the situation graver than the hundreds of times when they saved the universe by reversing the polarity on the deflector array.

Once you deal with a crisis you can move on, even if the stakes were unimaginably high. These people are freaking out because this seems like the new status quo, and this situation will impact every aspect of their lives from this point on.

Kirk G

01-15-2007, 05:16 PM

You do realize that I wasn't entirely serious with that last comment, don't you?

As Forest Gump says "Life is like a box of chocolates... You never know what you're going to get!"

Well, some comic series are like the same thing...
"Comics cross-overs are like a box of chocolates...You never know what you're going to get, until you get into sample one or two. Then, you can stop eating them, but you can't give back the one or two that you've already eaten..."

In some ways, comic fans are almost as bad of consumers as college students. Think about it. First, you apply for acceptance.... wait for your room assignment... Ask for your classes.... Take what they give you... Pay for the class up front BEFORE you sit in any sessions... and then take whatever grade they give you.

The comic fan sometimes behaves the same way...
First, you're told by the LCBS to sign up if you want those book 2-3 months in advance.
My LCBS tells me to "sign up for the whole thing if you want it".
The first issue arrives, and if you're not in line when they unpack the boxes, you may not see what new issues arrived.
Second, if you are prepared to plunk down money then, you may not get a copy.
Third, you hear from other fans how good another issue or series is, but because you didn't put it on your pull, you can't get a copy for another 3 weeks...if at all.

Now you're half way through a cross-over... You've discovered that you don't need all those tie-ins to enjoy the story... In fact, you've discovered that there IS NO REAL CONNECTION to some of the series that have been billed as being connected to the main storyline...

Other issues that were not billed as being connected appear to be tying in, but you can't get a copy of them cause you aren't on the pull list for them either.

Now the cross-over is about to come to an end, everyone is speculating how it's going end...
And now, some fans are complaining about how badly the story has played out.

So I say, after investing almost $50 in the main storyline and support books, I sure hope that we don't feel that it sucks... AFTER we've invested our money. (much like college students do...)

cyclops2500

01-15-2007, 08:39 PM

None of the characterizations in Civil War are that far a leap, in my opinion. Extreme, yes, but not unreachable. Reed portrayed as a science obsessed flake is not that far out of character. I haven't read every piece of paper with Reed printed on it, but for me, he's always had that "I prefer things I can control to things I cannot" vibe about him. He gets along with his experiments better than he does with people.

I think he threw in with the Pro-Regs because his friend Tony approached him with a logical argument for a social experiment that would prevent another disaster like the one they had just witnessed.

I also think that facing the end of the world, fighting villains, beating back alien hordes, and romping around the neutral zone are all different then picking up pieces of little kids in a blown up playground. That by itself would change any human being. Factor in Reed's constantly moving mind, he probably thought of fifteen ways to avoid the whole thing ten seconds after he saw it.

I think the Reed we see in Civil War sees a world of escalation, and he's doing what he thinks is right to slow it down. I think he sees a world where it could just as easily been his kids getting incinerated on that playground, and so he's doing whatever is asked of him to prevent it.

Loestal

01-16-2007, 01:51 PM

I’m posting this to play Devil’s Advocate for Reed Richards and his actions during Civil War. I’m not gonna completely say that he isn’t acting out of character, or bash the series by claiming the writer is bending the characters for his story. I don’t really think Iron Man is acting that ouf of place and feel Cap, above all, is acting the most out of character...but I digress. This is to possibly shed a little more light on Reed’s stance and situation and perhaps, thru discussion, gain some understanding and insight. Or....this could be seen as a means of justification for the writing, either way here it goes.

I have read every single arguement out there as to why he is acting out of character. Why he would, or wouldn’t do certain things. He is too family oriented, they have faced greater threats than this and stuck together, etc. This is all true, but think of those examples and compare them to Civil War. Yes, Dr. Doom has messed with their family plenty of times, and yes Reed has put his family above his work to save them. Yes they have stood at Galactus’s very feet and warded him off from the planet and still stuck together. But let’s just look at those two examples and compare them to Civil War. In both cases, his families lives where in danger. Reed puts all else aside to save his family. Now I have heard the arguement that Reed wouldn’t jeopardize his families health because of Civil War because we have seen him put his work and job aside to save his family from much greater threats. But thats the thing, they where much greater threats.

Saving his families lives from Doom and letting his family seperate for a possible temporary amount of time in order to do something he honestly believes will create a better future for said family, is two VERY different situations and really shouldn’t be compared. Now if Cap went crazy as bat s*** and kidnapped torch and Sue and threatened to kill them unless Reed stepped down...then I believe he would and nothing in Civil War leads us to believe other wise.

But it can be argued that their lives are in danger now being with Cap, with Goliath dieing and all which is true and that point is hard to argue. Maybe he believes that Sue will change her mind and come back and that this is just temporary and once there is no resistance then there will be no more fighting so she will have no reason to stay away. Because after all, the only reason Sue actually gave from jumping sides was that she didn’t think it was right to fight her friends.....but yet, here she is...fighting against the side she just left so that says something about her doesn’t it. (I could be wrong but that is the only reason I remember her giving in any of the books I’ve read.)

When it comes down to it, Reed has always been an obsessive scientist but yet a loving father who looks after his family above all else. But who is to say that sticking with Tony and working with him for a better future in the long run ISN’T his way of insuring that? In an issue of Frontline I believe, it showed him talking with somebody and showed a statistical read out of disasters caused by not villains, but super heroes and their wreckless use of powers or inexperience and it was a huge increase in just a few years. Maybe Reed IS protecting his family above all else by stopping these disasters from happening and creating a safe world for his children and grandchildren., maybe Sue and torch are the ones who aren’t seeing the big picture here. Most of the arguements I have seen bashing Millar for writing Reed wrong has been simply because he is putting his work before his family....maybe it’s not that simple and it requires a little more thought to see that he really is.

Again, I’m just playing Devil’s Advocate here because I never thought Reed was out of line but I could be wrong as I was never THAT big of FF guy. So let’s see what you guys have to say.

Magneto Rocks

01-16-2007, 02:02 PM

You're not playing Devil's Advocate, you're on the side of the Angels. I've defended Reed all along as both one of my favourite characters AND someone whose actions have felt logical to me. Plus we have the big tie-in to explain his actions in just a few days.

But it can be argued that their lives are in danger now being with Cap, with Goliath dieing and all which is true and that point is hard to argue. Maybe he believes that Sue will change her mind and come back and that this is just temporary and once there is no resistance then there will be no more fighting so she will have no reason to stay away.

To be fair, if he went and joined her in the Resistance their lives are in JUST as much danger, if not MORE since he won't be able to get them pardons and ensure they're treated well and whatnot- plus he's the best equipped to judge how to take them down painlessly. The fact that he's securing those pardons and taking care of Franklin and Val would indicate that he's doing his best to protect them even after they swap sides.

Because after all, the only reason Sue actually gave from jumping sides was that she didn’t think it was right to fight her friends.....but yet, here she is...fighting against the side she just left so that says something about her doesn’t it. (I could be wrong but that is the only reason I remember her giving in any of the books I’ve read.)

It's also the death of Bill Foster. ("Our hands are so soaked in Bill foster's BLOOD....") but to be fair during her quarrel with Reed they barely touch upon that- I wonder why she doesn't ask him to justify it.

Loestal

01-16-2007, 02:06 PM

I agree with everything you said Magneto Rocks

XPac

01-16-2007, 03:09 PM

I

But it can be argued that their lives are in danger now being with Cap, with Goliath dieing and all which is true and that point is hard to argue. Maybe he believes that Sue will change her mind and come back and that this is just temporary and once there is no resistance then there will be no more fighting so she will have no reason to stay away. Because after all, the only reason Sue actually gave from jumping sides was that she didn’t think it was right to fight her friends.....but yet, here she is...fighting against the side she just left so that says something about her doesn’t it. (I could be wrong but that is the only reason I remember her giving in any of the books I’ve read.)

In Fantastic Four, Sue made it pretty clear she felt that the law was wrong and she didn't agree with the heroes being locked up in the negative zone for not registering. Her reasons for being against it were basically the same as Spider-Mans, which is why it's not terribly shocking they both left at roughly the same time. Bill Fosters death was the straw that broke the camels back for both of them.

A bit of a tangent... but the person I would apply your arguement to more is Stature. She left Caps side because she didn't want to go around battling other heroes, yet she strangly shows up in the final battle ready to fight other heroes and her former teammates. To me that was suprising, especially given how Tony got on Caps case for using the Young Avengers in his army. But Sue unlike Stature actually did reasons beyond simply not wanting to fight her friends... which is why it makes sense for her to be where she is doing what she's doing.

Loestal

01-16-2007, 03:11 PM

In Fantastic Four, Sue made it pretty clear she felt that the law was wrong and she didn't agree with the heroes being locked up in the negative zone for not registering. Her reasons for being against it were basically the same as Spider-Mans, which is why it's not terribly shocking they both left at roughly the same time. Bill Fosters death was the straw that broke the camels back for both of them.

A bit of a tangent... but the person I would apply your arguement to more is Stature. She left Caps side because she didn't want to go around battling other heroes, yet she strangly shows up in the final battle ready to fight other heroes and her former teammates. To me that was suprising, especially given how Tony got on Caps case for using the Young Avengers in his army. But Sue unlike Stature actually did reasons beyond simply not wanting to fight her friends... which is why it makes sense for her to be where she is doing what she's doing.

Fair enough, I will admit not really thinking about Sue all that much because she wasn't the one with accusations thrown at her. My goal was to kind of clear Reed's name a little.

CMBMOOL

01-16-2007, 08:31 PM

XPac

01-17-2007, 12:03 AM

To me Sue had the right idea as Reed was acting out of character and if they're back together at the end of this war, then that would be the most cop out ending for the FF. I mean how can a man place his work before his family's feeling and it seems to me that while I like them both together I also liked it when need time out from each other. I supect that in the Post Civil War World that Reed is place in therapy due to his mental stability of putting his work before his feelings and Sue asking herself if that after all this time that maybe she still has hidden feelings for Namor. Also palcing the kids under the care of their uncles is the only way I'll read this comic in the Post Civil War world.

Yeah... registration aside, Reed was acting like a cold bastard. Even Black Panther was telling the guy right to his face to talk to his wife. If Sue was indeed against the registration it's possible she might have left him even if he wasn't acting so cold... but his behavior nonetheless certainly didn't help matters.

jackolover

10-02-2008, 11:53 PM

There could be an argument that Reed Richards has these mood swings at various times during his history. He was the astute Science professor in FF #1. The wife beater when Sue turned into her evil alter ego. The damaged goods after Doom sent Reed into the microverse. The Latverian dictator after the FF came out of hell, and went into heaven. The paranoid futurist after becoming pro-SHRA.

If I had to describe Reed Richards, I'd have to say he was a distracted genius, who needed his wife as a reality adviser, and that he forgot to take her advice during CW, thinking he was sane enough to think for himself. Reed Richards and Robert Reynolds are probably brothers in spirit, in that they have these wonderful powers, but when it comes down to it, who can play god without making all those mistakes.

mikekerr3

10-03-2008, 12:05 AM

I've been a Mr. Fantastic Fan since I was around 5 (still my all-time favorite hero), and I can't see how this is wildly out of character for him. He has always had one goal in mind, and that is protecting his extended family. everything he's done, down to the last bit has been to protect them after he (in his own mind) ruined there lives with the whole "Let's go for a ride on this unshielded spacecraft!" thing.

Reed's first reaction is to eliminate threats to the Richards family, and if he is convinced that unchecked superhuman activity may come back to hurt Sue, Johnny, Ben or the kids- he's going to fight to stop unchecked superhuman activity.

I agree with you characterization of Reed it works pretty well up until when he allows one of his creations ,a killer Clone/Cyborg, with an unknown software glitch to be used in a battle. A batle on which his wife and brother-in law were on the other side. That makes no sense at all.

They have never stated what the glitch was or that they identified why it kills so how could they have fixed it?

mikekerr3

10-03-2008, 12:26 AM

No, it's not. Personally speaking I'd rather go fight in a foreign land than have to kill my best friend and have my family disown you; dunno about you.

If I had just killed a good friend, almost killed many other friends, had my wife and brother in law disown me, had my great life long friend, who is probably the most decent guy in the MU, walk away from what I was involved with, in disgust, I would probably stop and consider that maybe I was on the wrong side.

What is out of character is that he was willing to sacrafice everyone around him to the SHRA.

skrullover

10-20-2008, 02:24 PM

Well they explained why Reed acted as he did in McDuffie's run of the FF. He along with Tony, and Pym, calculated that without such an Act, several events (three to be exact, if I remember correctly) would occur that could destroy the world. One of those events being the Secret Invasion I guess. He called it "formula 101", or some such nonsense. It has been something he has worked on his whole life. Looking at economic shifts, population growth, rise and fall of empires., etc., etc., they could predict future events, and without the SHRA, Reed didn't think the world could handle what was to come.

But I don't think he is acting out of character. This was an exchange in the recent FF issues.

Ben: Hey Reed, what's happening!

Reed: *Initiate human interaction 501 alt/.friendship*: Hello Ben

Ben: What was that?

Reed: Nothing.

Sue: Reed you coming to bed?

Reed: *Prepare for human interaction 329.1 alt/.relations*: Yes dear

GHalecki

10-26-2008, 08:14 PM

Hey, he did it before to imprison villains.

To be fair, it's not a clone per se. It's more Tony said "Here's a hair, what can you do?" And Reed was able to develop what I assume to be a duplicate appearance and perhaps advanced AI for a cyborg created by Hank Pym. This is Reed Richards- the man can do almost anything if he sets his mind to it.

True but it's not like he has a choice- the FF are the most public super-team on Earth, they can't avoid this conflict. So he needs to pick a side and take a leading role on that side. And we've always seen that when Reed gets devoted to something, he gets OBSESSED.

CYBORG Thor.

And we've only seen him really get excited about the Fifty STates Initiative. The only thing we've really seen him say on the Negative Zone Prison is very grimly say that it's classified information.

...Coming to which, pro-reg have AWFUL leaks problems. I mean firstly a guy who drives a truck knows 42 is a prison, then EVERYONE knows 42 is a prison in the Negative Zone and that he's recruiting super-villains and that he has Venom and Bullseye (before they're ever deployed) and so on.

OK, Tony gives Reed a Thor hair and Reed makes something that looks like Thor and has Thor's powers. How exactly is that not a clone? And Reed himself makes comeents about what could have gone wrong and what they didn't account for. That is the first problem. Reed would NEVER EVER let something that powerful loose without knowing EXACTLY what was going to happen. The worst that happens when Reed makes anything is that it might overload and melt down in his hands, or maybe short circuit because he is overloading it in a field test. NEVER before has he made something to my knowledge that goes out and kills someone because "oops, we didn't think of that".

My biggest problem with Reed backing the SHRA to begin with is this. It was within a month or so before Civil War came out (probably more like a week in Marvel time) where the government comes in and said that they should take the kids away from Reed and Sue because they are in danger by being with their superhero parents. Reed argues, correctly, that there is nowhere safer for the kids to possibly be than with heir parents at the Baxter Building. The Child Services person says that she is aware of the situation, with the FF having a lot of dangerous enemies that would go to any lengths to find the children in order to harm them or use them against the FF. She says that every possible precaution is being taken by the government to keep the children's identities and location a secret. At the end of the story they fake letting the children get taken, and the house where they are supposedly being taken to is blown up by some undisclosed bad guy within hours, despite the very best efforts of the government to keep the information confidential.

At this point Reed knows that one of two things must be true.
1) The very best efforts of the government to keep secrets involving superheroes identities and families is worth squat.
or
2) The government actually had more secure methods of keeping the information about his kids a secret, but they didn't use them regardless of their assurences.

So why in the world would Reed agree to help hunt down someone like Spider-Man? He has every reason in the world to expect that if he gave his name and address to the government, it wouldn't be any more protected than the information that Reed gave, and therefore his family would be just as vulnerable.

Reed make his case against the government doing to him, what (in effect) he was helping the government do to his friends.

And this wasn't some obscure story from 1978 or something. It was published within weeks of Civil War.

Corey W

10-26-2008, 09:25 PM

Speaking of stories from the seventies, I was going through Lee's early 70's FF run recently. There is a stretch of about 15 issues where:

1.) The Thing nearly starts a war with Atlantis by shooting a concussion missile at them--apparently in order to show Namor that Earth wants peace. Fortunately, Magneto winds up kidnapping Sue and Dorma so total war is averted. Interestingly, Reed never tells the president (Nixon) that the FF nearly caused the war and then ignores the President's military strategy and foreign policy decisions. Effectively making himself, an unelected citizen, diplomat numero uno.

2.) A few issues later Johnny and Ben travel to Africa to find the Black Leopard (who was formerly the Black Panther, but changed his name for reasons that weren't really clear to anyone but had something to do with the Black Panther party). He has been thrown in jail in a fictional country resembling South Africa. Without consulting the state department, Torch and Thing take it on themselves to rescue Leopard (himself a foreign monarch) and then destroy a great deal of state property. It is hard to disagree with them, but given the foreign policy implications, you could be excused for thinking that it should be the government's call.

3.) A few issues after that the Torch flies to South America and destroys three jets belonging to the country of Terra Verde. The jets were attacking a group of rebels. Without familiarizing himself with the situation, Torch decides to help them. The only saving grace for the FF is that goverment of Terra Verde is toppled the next issue, so there is no one to file a formal protest.

4.) A few issues after that, the FF are having one of their recurring intramural squabbles. They tear up New York, destroy a great deal of property, resist arrest on several occassions and then save the world from the Overmind.

5.) On several occassions during this period, the FF acknowledges their landlord's right to evict them, but rather than leave the building they assault him.

6.) Then Galactus comes to town. Galactus threatens to destroy the earth unless the Surfer will become his herald once more. The Surfer agrees. Problem solved. Except that Reed, against the wish of the President, takes it on himself to reject the deal and exile Galactus to the negative zone. It is hard to imagine how that could create any problems in the future . . .

7.) Then Ben Grimm goes to the Subterrenean Kingdom of the Mole Man, with the express intent of kidnapping the sovereign. The rest of the FF follow and a fight ensues. Once again, the FF has not sought state department approval before starting a war with a technologically advanced foreign power.

After reading those issues, I came away from them thinking--wow, maybe registration isn't the terrible idea that I always thought it was. The FF are pretty reckless.

I am still willing to trust Cap, but my goodness--exiling Galactus to another dimension!?! Should we talk this over first? Maybe get some input from at least one other person? I mean, the Surfer knows Galactus well, what does he think about the idea?