What's up with Winnick and Jason Todd?

[shaxper]

Two guest appearances in two different titles in the same month? -- And the stories don't even intertwine or overlap. What's up with this? If Winnick is looking to boost his readership by bringing back Jason, it's working. I LOVE his work on Jason. But TWO guest appearances? It feels way forced. Has Winnick said anything about why he's doing this?

[Mia]

I guess now that his 'pet' Marty Stu character, Arsenal is now in the Justice League. Winnick has replaced with Jason Todd.

[Lorendiac]

I guess now that his 'pet' Marty Stu character, Arsenal is now in the Justice League. Winnick has replaced with Jason Todd.

Wait, wait. As I recall, he's been known to shoot Arsenal full of holes and stick him in the emergency room, and also to have a mark branded on the back of Arsenal's little girl. Later Winick had Deathstroke the Terminator play Roy for a fool for months and then, when discovered, beat him to a pulp.

A bit later on: Arsenal, continuing to prove how gullible he was, zapped Shift because he had mistakenly reached the "logical conclusion" that this particular teammate must be the traitor within their midst. Afterwards, I imagine he had to apologize.

If you think Arsenal is his Marty Stu, then are you saying that these are the experiences that Judd Winick desperately wants to have in real life? So he writes these stories just to get tons and tons of "wish fulfillment"? What sort of masochist is he?

[Mia]

Wait, wait. As I recall, he's been known to shoot Arsenal full of holes and stick him in the emergency room, and also to have a mark branded on the back of Arsenal's little girl. Later Winick had Deathstroke the Terminator play Roy for a fool for months and then, when discovered, beat him to a pulp.

A bit later on: Arsenal, continuing to prove how gullible he was, zapped Shift because he had mistakenly reached the "logical conclusion" that this particular teammate must be the traitor within their midst. Afterwards, I imagine he had to apologize.

If you think Arsenal is his Marty Stu, then are you saying that these are the experiences that Judd Winick desperately wants to have in real life? So he writes these stories just to get tons and tons of "wish fulfillment"? What sort of masochist is he?

The definition of a 'Mary Sue/Marty Stu is far more complex than what you have outlined.

[Damo]

Everyone seems to carry around their own definitions. That's why I've grown to really hate the term, except when applied to fanfic.

...

I prefer "mancrush" in a situation like this anyway. Winnick totally has a mancrush for Jason Todd.

[Violently Apathetic]

*Shrugs* Considering I only bothered with Outsiders and Green Arrow for Jason Todd it seems like Winick isn't the only one with a twisted crush. As if you needed more proof I'm totally shameless and have no taste...

[DWEarhart]

I'll throw my hat in to the Red Hood/Jason Todd hetero man-love department.

I despised the idea of his ressurection, but dealt with it. He's kicking arse. I dig the bastard.

[shaxper]

I agree. I dropped Outsiders ages ago and was planning to drop Green Arrow this month, but I love what Winnick had done with Jason. I couldn't have been more against DC bringing him back, but Winnick has the characterization down. This Jason truly feels like the natural end result of what the post-crisis Jason would have become if he'd lived. I'm very curious to see what Winnick has planned for him, which is why I'm curious to know what motivated the dual appearances this month.

[brundlefly]

I prefer "mancrush" in a situation like this anyway. Winnick totally has a mancrush for Jason Todd.

Agreed. Winnick's resurrection and eye-rolling revamp into a "bad-ass" of his precious little favorite character from his childhood is just really bad fan-fiction. At least he's isolated to appearances in Green Arrow and Outsiders and not ruining the main Bat-titles anymore.

[ZacharyLovesYou]

I'll throw my hat in to the Red Hood/Jason Todd hetero man-love department.

I despised the idea of his ressurection, but dealt with it. He's kicking arse. I dig the bastard.

At first, I thought they were defiling a real sacred cow here... But the more I read, the more interested I got. The Batman Annual that explained his return put me over the top.

My vote: I hope they keep Todd around to kick a whole lotta ass, and ruin the Bat-Family's life for a while.

[GeorgeG]

Well, originally Jason was supposed to replace Nightwing over in The Outsiders, since he was going to be killed in Infinite Crisis.

When that didn't happen, things got all screwed up. Just look at Bruce Jones' horrible stint on the Nightwing title.

Other than the punch in the wall explanation, Winick's handling of Jason Todd/Red Hood was one of the highlights in 2006--at least it was for me.

I want a Red Hood title in fact. Winick & Shane Davis = gold.

Anything Red Hood appears in (much like Hush), I'm buying.

[Nate Grey]

Has Winnick expessed anywhere how much he likes Todd or something? Regardless, the editor is the one that will let him use him or not no matter how much he likes him. Seems the editor(s) is fine with it.

Another thing, Red Hood's appearance seem to kinda coincide with Winter Soldier's over at Marvel. I think that's hardly a coincidence.

[Nate Grey]

I want a Red Hood title in fact. Winick & Shane Davis = gold.

Anything Red Hood appears in (much like Hush), I'm buying.

Co-sign, though I did skip most of his appearance in Nightwing OYL. Didn't work for me. But I've been enjoying everything else he's been in.

[GeorgeG]

Co-sign, though I did skip most of his appearance in Nightwing OYL. Didn't work for me. But I've been enjoying everything else he's been in.

I think we both can agree to throw that part of the Nightwing run out.

[GeorgeG]

Has Winnick expessed anywhere how much he likes Todd or something? Regardless, the editor is the one that will let him use him or not no matter how much he likes him. Seems the editor(s) is fine with it.

Another thing, Red Hood's appearance seem to kinda coincide with Winter Soldier's over at Marvel. I think that's hardly a coincidence.

Yeah, a Batman/Captain America crossover would've been nice. But we can say thanks to Levitz for not doing that.

[The Shadow]

Agreed. Winnick's resurrection and eye-rolling revamp into a "bad-ass" of his precious little favorite character from his childhood is just really bad fan-fiction. At least he's isolated to appearances in Green Arrow and Outsiders and not ruining the main Bat-titles anymore.

Quoted for truth.

[The Shadow]

Another thing, Red Hood's appearance seem to kinda coincide with Winter Soldier's over at Marvel. I think that's hardly a coincidence.

LOL

I noticed that too.

Another thing I noticed is that Ed Brubaker is a much better writer than Judd.

[ZacharyLovesYou]

Has Winnick expessed anywhere how much he likes Todd or something? Regardless, the editor is the one that will let him use him or not no matter how much he likes him. Seems the editor(s) is fine with it.

Another thing, Red Hood's appearance seem to kinda coincide with Winter Soldier's over at Marvel. I think that's hardly a coincidence.

I wouldn't bet against it. hahaha

I mean, two side-kicks brought back from the dead, and they're both bad guys? wtf. There just needs to be a crossover already... Wait a second, maybe not. That's a little too much angst and "bad ass"-ery for my plate.

[satchmo the dragon]

At first, I thought they were defiling a real sacred cow here... But the more I read, the more interested I got. The Batman Annual that explained his return put me over the top.

My vote: I hope they keep Todd around to kick a whole lotta ass, and ruin the Bat-Family's life for a while.

How did he return, can you give a synopsis?

[saintsaucey]

there will be a one shot about jason taking on the nightwing persona, during world war 3 it will be part of a world war three series of 4 one shots

[The Xenos]

Yeah, Judd Winick has a total mancrush on Jason. Maybe it's like Devin's crush on Nightwing. Maybe he's gay for him (like Mysterio is for Spiderman (http://jaypinkerton.cracked.com/spiderman/13.jpg)). Yet I'm pretty sure Judd is straight and just likes being really good fiends with 'the gays'. I know, I shouldn't joke. The guy really did lose a good friend who was gay to AIDs. I still need to read that book.

ALso, I shouldn't talk because I gotta admit a way hertero man crush on Nightwing. (And a way hetero regular crush on a couple of the women he's been involved with. Mmm... redheads and slighty crazy brunette Sicilian women.)

THough really, he is like a rabid fanboy writing fanfic. It's up to editors to pull back the leash and I don't think they have. Then again, I don't think DC editorial should ever have let this stupid experiment go on for so long. Maybe as an elseworlds, I could stomach it, but I'm just damn sick of the charcter mucking up the DCU


LOL

I noticed that too.

Another thing I noticed is that Ed Brubaker is a much better writer than Judd.

Yeah. Evidence of such is that Bucky actually has a plot and a reason to being back instead of Jason's RETCON PUNCH! and *RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE and act all emo and annoying!*.

I hear Bucky / the new character got an awesome backstory with being recovered by the Russians and being brainwashed and turned into a sleeper agent against America. Knowing Brubaker's other cloak and dagger stories, I can only imagine how good it is. Yet I just don't need another series to follow and I admit the idea was a turn off at first. I already was disgusted with the lame handling of Jason, so I didn't want another one. Though from reports, I hear it's done much much much better.

[The Xenos]

there will be a one shot about jason taking on the nightwing persona, during world war 3 it will be part of a world war three series of 4 one shots

You're joking right? What are you talking about? THere was a short arc in Nightwing, a really crappy one, where he takes over Nightwing's persona. Oh and did I mention how crappy it was?

The story of how he came back from the dead was in the Batman annnual. It was crap. Not as bad as the Bruce Jones Nightwing arc, but pretty lame. Basically Superboy Prime's punching the walls created continuity errors and brought Jason Todd back out of the grave.

Yes. It was that cheap and half assed of a plot device.

[IamtheRock3]

well winnick does seem to be the only guy who got the charcter down right.

[Damo]

I wouldn't bet against it. hahaha

I mean, two side-kicks brought back from the dead, and they're both bad guys? wtf. There just needs to be a crossover already... Wait a second, maybe not. That's a little too much angst and "bad ass"-ery for my plate.

Winter and Red came out nothing alike.

Red's a genuine enemy to Batman, a corruption of his work, a Punisher-esque "antihero" whose methods Batman cant condone.

Winter? Really, the main thing preventing him from working with Cap is Bucky's shame at how he was used for all those years, all the things he was forced to do. It's possible that he's more willing to kill than his mentor, but it hasn't become a big "thing" like with Todd and Cap.

[DonC]

My theory is Winnick was the one who wanted to bring back Jason "for real," instead of the fake appearence in "Hush." Once he got that he was probably told to use the character as much as possible so fans can hopefully get over their hatred of the idea of bringing him back.

[The Xenos]

well winnick does seem to be the only guy who got the charcter down right.

As well as one of the few people who thought it was remotely a good idea.

[ZacharyLovesYou]

How did he return, can you give a synopsis?

SPOILER for Batman Annual #25



During Infinite Crisis, Superboy-Prime breaks the walls of reality, altering events in time. One of the events was Jason Todd's death. Todd's corpse starts rejuvenating and he wakes up concious in his own coffin. Problem is, in his mind, time hasn't passed; so he wakes up confused and hystarical (with all of his wounds from the Joker's beating when he died) and claws his way out from underground. He starts walking aimlessly down a road where a couple finds him and takes him to a hospital after he passes out from the combination of his injuries and fatigue from escaping from the coffin. His memory is still foggy, so after healing enough to be on his feet again he escapes from the hospital and roams the street, homeless. Eventually, Ra's Al Ghuls' daughter, Talia, finds him and puts him inside the Lazarus pit to heal him completely/give him back his memory.

After reading a bunch of current newspapers with Joker articles, he realizes that Batman never avenged his death. This pushes him over the edge, and thus creates the second Red Hood.

[filthysize]

My theory is Winnick was the one who wanted to bring back Jason "for real," instead of the fake appearence in "Hush." Once he got that he was probably told to use the character as much as possible so fans can hopefully get over their hatred of the idea of bringing him back.

Well you're not really wrong. I remember an interview where he said that he read Loeb's "Hush" and thought it was awesome that Jason's back... then got disappointed when it turned out to be Clayface. So he decided to write his own version and retcon the appearance in Hush into the actual Jason.

It's all very lame.

[carabas]

Another thing, Red Hood's appearance seem to kinda coincide with Winter Soldier's over at Marvel. I think that's hardly a coincidence.

If it is, then it's more lkely Marvel copying DC.
Jason todd's return tied into Nightwing's - canceled - death in Infinite Crisis, the planning of which definitely predates anything Brubaker did at Marvel.

More likely, it's inspired by the Todd teases during Hush, if inspired by anything at all.

That said, two sacred cows have been resurrected, and both are far more enjoyable than they ever were before.

[Nate Grey]

If it is, then it's more lkely Marvel copying DC.
Jason todd's return tied into Nightwing's - canceled - death in Infinite Crisis, the planning of which definitely predates anything Brubaker did at Marvel.

Ah. I knew one company copied the other, I just wasn't sure which. Now which one is copying the other with the World Wars (World War Hulk for Marvel and World War III for DC)?


More likely, it's inspired by the Todd teases during Hush, if inspired by anything at all.

I've talked to a few people who wished that WAS Todd during Hush. I mean all the way, as in Hush the whole time. I wonder if DC was testing the waters? I wish they had the balls to make it Todd the first time instead of gauging reaction, but...guess I kinda understand.


That said, two sacred cows have been resurrected, and both are far more enjoyable than they ever were before.

Pretty much agree here, though I've been satisfied with EVERY Winter Soldier appearance, whereas I've liked all the Red Hood's EXCEPT for the Nightwing run. :( That's 1-0 so far. 2-0 if you count the way he was brought back (I had a theory I'm quite proud of that wasn't even remotely the case). Ah well. I enjoy him regardless, and this Green Arrow romp looks like it might be fun. Him and Brick make an interesting team.