Where's the Accountability in Civil War?

[ivesaidway2much]

From the beginning, I thought the point of SHRA was to increase the accountability of the superheroes. To make them responsible if their actions hurt other people. But oftentimes during this event that hasn't been the case.

According to the Pro-regs Speedball is directly responsible for the deaths of 608 people in Stamford including 5 dozen children. But if the pro-regs had their wish, Robbie would have spent next to no time in jail. They were willing to grant him his freedom if signed up with them and worked for SHIELD. How can they justify trying to let a person out of jail days (weeks?) after they believe he negligently killed over 600 innocent bystanders. And of course the first thing they let

The anti-regs began devising a plan to release all the superhumans from 42. A prison that contains not only superheroes but dangerous supervillains as well. Cap and his gang were willing to set unchecked, muderous pyschopaths free just to win a fight, and pretty much crossed the line between freedom fighters and terrorists. Moreover, Tony and the rest of the pro-regs knew about this thanks to their mole, Tigra. But Reed was still cutting deals with the president to make sure his family went unpunished for their crimes, and he arranged for ten other anti-regs to go completely scot-free despite their actions.

How is that fair? Is there any reason to believe that superheroing won't still be an old boys club except now with Reed, Tony, and Hank deciding which superhumans deserve to pay for their crimes and which ones are blameless and above the law?

There other examples of the lack of accountability, such as Tony "generously" offering to pay for Bill Foster's funeral but neglecting to mention to his family that Bill would be buried giant-sized, naked, with a tarp chained to his body, with his face uncovered. And Wonderman having his charity embezzlement charges disappear when he did a mission for SHIELD. But they involve a little more gray area.

[XPac]

Accountability is merely an illusion in Civil War.

As we saw with Speedball and others, signing up with the registration actually makes you LESS accountable because the government is quick to sweep your bad deeds under the carpet at long as you play by their rules.

It was never about accountability... it was about control. And that's not what the american public was crying for. But SHIELD got what it wants now, so that's not even an issue for them.

[agrich]

A few things...

1. Speedball wasn't actually breaking any laws at the time of the Stamford incident. The SHRA wasn't in effect and superheroes routinely battled villains in public. While the New Warriors were technically responsible for those deaths, Peter Parker is technically responsible for the death of Captain Stacy, too, a guy who was killed while Spider-man was battling a super-villain.

2. I haven't read all the tie-ins, but in Civil War proper, Iron Man defends the "42" prison by saying it's only super-heroes who are locked up there at present. To Spider-man, he says, "What do you suggest we do with them? Lock them up with the regular prisoners?" Now I wouldn't be surprised if this is contradicted elsewhere, but in Civil War #5, Stark says it's unregistered heroes in the 42 prison -- period.

3. I agree it's an old boys club, but Reed would and has shown favoritism for his family members/teammates long before Civil War, and will again. No surprise there.

4. I agree they handled Bill Foster's corpse rather roughly, but I doubt Stark outlined the burial procedure. I think some elements of this series -- that burial scene, and the bit in the latest issue with Punisher gunning down a couple of loser villains and then saying, "What?" -- are strictly evidence of Millar's morbid sense of humor, no more.

5. Of course SHIELD is corrupt, but that's not exactly news.

[bulbasteve]

Yeah there has been a lot of debate around here if vigilantism was actually illegal in the MU before, and regardless isn't it good that the government is admitting their lack of action contributed to the wild west atmosphere of the MU?

Anyway this is Marvel, it's all about second chances.

[MAK15]

cap wouldnt have released any of the super-criminals in the 42 complex, mainly becuz there wer'nt any there.\

they were either in the thunderbolt army or in the prison they went to if the ydidnt join the thunderbolt army.

[Magneto Rocks]

Well weren't we told in issue '6 that 42 was designed for super-villains?

[ivesaidway2much]

Well weren't we told in issue '6 that 42 was designed for super-villains? Yeah, that's what I was referring to. By the way, you were right. Anti-regs clearly equal terrorists.

1. Speedball wasn't actually breaking any laws at the time of the Stamford incident. The SHRA wasn't in effect and superheroes routinely battled villains in public. While the New Warriors were technically responsible for those deaths, Peter Parker is technically responsible for the death of Captain Stacy, too, a guy who was killed while Spider-man was battling a super-villain. Speedball picked a fight with a bunch homicidal pyschos basically across the street from a school. Among the supervillains, one nearly killed Spider-man, another fought the Hulk to a standstill, one killed Captain Marvel, and the final one's suit turn into a radioactive cobalt bomb if he uses it too long. As a result of the New Warriors actions 608 people died.

Captain Stacy on the other hand, threw himself in the way of some falling rubble (the result of a rooftop battle with Doc Ock) to save a kid. Can you see the difference in the severity of crimes between Spider-man and Speedball?

[Sijo]

Speedball picked a fight with a bunch homicidal pyschos basically across the street from a school. Among the supervillains, one nearly killed Spider-man, another fought the Hulk to a standstill, one killed Captain Marvel, and the final one's suit turn into a radioactive cobalt bomb if he uses it too long. As a result of the New Warriors actions 608 people died. Incorrect.
-The producers of the show led the New Warriors to Stamford; and they were the ones who provided them with the information on the villains AT THE LAST MINUTE (why has no one gone after them?)
-The NW had not decided whether to attack when they were spotted by one of the villains; they then had no choice.
-we don't know why they were spotted, it might've been their whispering, or it might've pure chance;
-Heroes get "nearly killed" by villains in many stories- even The Toad has been threatening at times. It's just dramatic emphasis. The fact is, other than Nitro, the villains chosen for the Stamford battle were picked because they were considered lame and thus safe to kill off (a trend that continued in later issues);
-Nitro didn't kill Marvel, he died from exposure to a chemical during the battle- an accident.
-Even with the warning, the NW quickly took down most of the villains, and, had Nitro not been power-boosted, would likely have taken him out as well;
-The Warriors weren't there JUST to boost ratings for their show (this is the part that everybody assumes, and which really outrages people) they were there because they were heroes and capturing dangerous murderers is what they believed to be their duty. That they did it for a TV show looks bad but does NOT change the fact. They are the New Warriors, not X-Statix.
-Ironically, IF the explosion had been caused by the kids monkeying around with Cobalt Man's armor, THEN some blame could be placed on them. Millar really missed that one.
-The Warriors didn't lead Nitro to the school, he ran there on his own, probably to take them hostage; Namorita likely attacked him to PREVENT that (and since Nitro has been taken out by the likes of Daredevil, a punch from her SHOULD have knocked him out. Must've been the MGH.)
-Nitro had been hired to cause more destruction so Damage Control would benefit from it; he probably was going to blow up the town anyway (let's not forget, he's always been a sick killer.) If not Stamford, then another civilian target.
-The Avengers claimed that if it had been them, the calamity would not have happened. Yet how would they know Nitro's power had increased so much? How many times have we seen them tackling supervillains confidently only to find their powers had increased?

In sum, no, the Stamford Incident in *no* way proves that superheroes are irresponsible and need supervision. I can understand that the public may see it differently (the tape of the battle may be incomplete and/or altered- remember, it was NOT a live broadcast) but without knowing that for sure, we can't decide if that was a proper reaction.

There is much about Civil War that we don't know: the full workings of the SHRA, the reactions of the Pro-Hero citizens, the part that the Commision on Superhuman Activies had on it, etc. Pretty poor writing...

[Vaal]

Yeah, I don't get how everyone just glosses over the fact that Nitro was planning to blow the place up to start with and the NW just happened to be there when he did.

If there's no superhero is there to stop him, Nitro explodes, kills 608 -- supers get blamed for not being there.

If ANY other superhero is there, Nitro explodes, kills 608 plus superheroes -- and somehow magically, superheros get blamed then too.

Why is it the Namor is the only bloody sane person in the MU? He's punishing Nitro -- the guy who killed all those people. The MU government is punishing... the guy who was within a block of Nitro killing all those people.

Actually, since he's signed up for slavery, now they're only punishing the readers that liked his character.

[StoneGold]

Yeah, I don't get how everyone just glosses over the fact that Nitro was planning to blow the place up to start with and the NW just happened to be there when he did.


Um... because he wasn't? He was just hanging out with his crew. Unless watching Married... With Children repeats with Speedfreak was part of his prepping for blowing up a random town, he wasn't.

[NickThompson]

Um... because he wasn't? He was just hanging out with his crew. Unless watching Married... With Children repeats with Speedfreak was part of his prepping for blowing up a random town, he wasn't.
He's powered by Al Bundy.

[Alex L]

Yeah, I don't get how everyone just glosses over the fact that Nitro was planning to blow the place up to start with and the NW just happened to be there when he did.

Not really. Haven't read CW #1 in a while, but I seem to remember one of the supervillains was taking out the trash when she spotted the New Warriors. Hardly the actions of an evil mastermind.

[Vaal]

I obviously didn't mean he was going to be blowing the place up that very moment :rolleyes:.

[StoneGold]

I obviously didn't mean he was going to be blowing the place up that very moment :rolleyes:.

Apparently not, because you fooled the rest of us. And even then, there is no evidence he was planning on blowing up Stamford. All we know is that he was crashing there with some other villains.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Apparently not, because you fooled the rest of us. And even then, there is no evidence he was planning on blowing up Stamford. All we know is that he was crashing there with some other villains.

If Nitro didn't plan on blowing something up eventually, then why would Damage Control amp his powers? It wasn't as if Nitro was trying to pull a Thunderbolt.

[Sean Walsh]

Well weren't we told in issue '6 that 42 was designed for super-villains?

Which would mean that's the confirmation that 42 is in fact the prison Reed was building in the FF: FOES mini.

[agrich]

Speedball picked a fight with a bunch homicidal pyschos basically across the street from a school. Among the supervillains, one nearly killed Spider-man, another fought the Hulk to a standstill, one killed Captain Marvel, and the final one's suit turn into a radioactive cobalt bomb if he uses it too long. As a result of the New Warriors actions 608 people died.

Captain Stacy on the other hand, threw himself in the way of some falling rubble (the result of a rooftop battle with Doc Ock) to save a kid. Can you see the difference in the severity of crimes between Spider-man and Speedball?


No, actually. There's a difference in JUDGMENT, certainly, but that's not the same thing. Speedball picking a fight, the location of said fight, and the history of said villains are factors which show that Speedball's judgment was worse than Spider-man's, who had little choice but to engage in the fight he did. But prior to the SHRA being enacted, it's not clear that either Speedball or Spider-man had committed crimes of any severity at all in the context of the Marvel Universe. Since we're going by the fact that vigilanteism has long been a part of the Marvel Universe -- superheroes fighting supervillians -- and heroes normally didn't get jailed for it, Speedball committed no crime.

Let's say both Speedball and Spider-man were cops. One cop responds to a bank robbery and while defeating the criminal, an innocent person is killed. Another cop discovers the known whereabouts of a group of criminals, and while trying to arrest them, one flees the scene, runs into a schoolyard, and sprays it with bullets. Neither cop would go to jail for it, although one's judgment might be seen as more flawed than the other.

[ivesaidway2much]

Let's say both Speedball and Spider-man were cops. One cop responds to a bank robbery and while defeating the criminal, an innocent person is killed. Another cop discovers the known whereabouts of a group of criminals, and while trying to arrest them, one flees the scene, runs into a schoolyard, and sprays it with bullets. Neither cop would go to jail for it, although one's judgment might be seen as more flawed than the other. I'm not familiar with the law in regards to police negligence, so I can't comment on the legal consequences. But I'm fairly certain that the second cop would lose his job for failing to request adequate backup for the situation.

[Calybos]

"Accountability" is just the buzzword used to justify the government's actions. It's like "keeping America safe" as an excuse to trash the Constitution... just a cover for yet another governmental power-grab.

[agrich]

Maybe both would lose their jobs, but that's not the point. You're trying to say Speedball committed a severe crime, and I'm saying he didn't.

[ivesaidway2much]

Maybe both would lose their jobs, but that's not the point. You're trying to say Speedball committed a severe crime, and I'm saying he didn't. What I'm trying to say is that in the death of captain stacy Spider-man made a reasonable decision but things went wrong and someone got killed. But with the New Warriors, they made a bad decision (namely not retreating and calling for backup against a team they were overmatched against) and predictably things went horribly wrong and a bunch of people got killed. It's similar to the cop that chooses to go after a criminal 1-on-1 vs. the cop that chooses to go after a group of criminals 1-on-4. The difference is criminal negligence.

[XPac]

What I'm trying to say is that in the death of captain stacy Spider-man made a reasonable decision but things went wrong and someone got killed. But with the New Warriors, they made a bad decision (namely not retreating and calling for backup against a team they were overmatched against) and predictably things went horribly wrong and a bunch of people got killed. It's similar to the cop that chooses to go after a criminal 1-on-1 vs. the cop that chooses to go after a group of criminals 1-on-4. The difference is criminal negligence.

Though I don't agree with the New Warriors decision to incite a fight across the street from a crowned school yard, I disagree with the idea that they were outmatched.

They could have and should have won that fight fairly easily. Namorita hit Nitro... had she hit him hard enough to knock him out (something I'm fairly sure she's capable of doing), things would have turned out very differerently. She pulled her punch and that cost her. But it's not that they weren't capable of putting down Nitro. It could have been done fairly easily.

[ivesaidway2much]

Though I don't agree with the New Warriors decision to incite a fight across the street from a crowned school yard, I disagree with the idea that they were outmatched.

They could have and should have won that fight fairly easily. Namorita hit Nitro... had she hit him hard enough to knock him out (something I'm fairly sure she's capable of doing), things would have turned out very differerently. She pulled her punch and that cost her. But it's not that they weren't capable of putting down Nitro. It could have been done fairly easily.
Whether the New Warriors were outmatched is a matter of perspective. Were they lucky that the villains weren't in their suits when the Warriors attacked or was it part of their plan? If Speedfreek, Cobalt man, and Coldheart had been suited up the New warriors would have all been dead within two minutes (except possibly Speedball).

[XPac]

Whether the New Warriors were outmatched is a matter of perspective. Were they lucky that the villains weren't in their suits when the Warriors attacked or was it part of their plan? If Speedfreek, Cobalt man, and Coldheart had been suited up the New warriors would have all been dead within two minutes (except possibly Speedball).

Well, I'll simply say they didn't look at all outmatched to me until literally the last second of the fight and leave it at that.

[agrich]

Again, I agree that in terms of judgment, the New Warriors' wasn't particularly good. You asked if I could see the difference in the severity of the crimes, and I'm saying there is none. Speedball didn't commit a crime, neither did Spider-man.