The Joker

[bw38]

It's been said before that the Joker needs Batman in order to exist. They are polar opposites essentially. This got me thinking. If it came down to the very end with no interferences or distractions, would either finish the other off? We all know Batman wouldn't. But would the Joker kill off Batman if somehow his crazed scheme worked out? Better yet, would he unmask the Batman before killing him off, or would he just kill off Batman without ever knowing who's under the mask?

On a side note, how would the Joker react if he accidentally found out Batman's secret identity?

[DWEarhart]

In the spirit of the question, you just don't know with the Joker. He could have Batman's entire crew kidnapped, locked away somewhere, have Batman in front of him, down, beaten, a loaded gun pointed at his head, and he'd probably kill off the crew instead, holding a television monitor in front of Batsy, so Joker could watch and savor Batsy's reaction to their deaths. Then, Joker would walk away, singing "Don't you wish your girlfriend was hot -like - me?"

Who's to say he doesn't already know Batsy's secret identity? Everyone and their mother already does. I don't think he'd care. He wants to torment Batman, not Bruce Wayne.

[Hellstormer]

I've wonder about this before and I agree with DWE, we really could never no. Deep down I don't think the Joker would do it, he'd rather just make Bats miserable.

[TheLazy]

I don't know, but I think what DWEarhart said about the joker already know is true. He doesn't want to beat Bruce wayne, Bruce is just a normal guy with a a few bucks in the bank. Batman is an icon, he is the Jokers antagonist.

:)

[bw38]

I don't know, but I think what DWEarhart said about the joker already know is true. He doesn't want to beat Bruce wayne, Bruce is just a normal guy with a a few bucks in the bank. Batman is an icon, he is the Jokers antagonist.

:)

But Bruce Wayne is the man behind the mask. Any torture he causes to Bruce Wayne can affect the Batman as well, at least I'd think so.

It'd be interesting to see what Joker's reaction would be if he tormented Bruce Wayne/Batman to the point where Batman kills for the first time (not the Joker, but someone else).

It's almost as if Joker wants to torment and torture Batman to the point where he becomes a killer. I think Bats would definitely go insane at that point. That of course is all speculation, seeing as he's gone through so much crap in the past that's gotten him close to killing.

[TheLazy]

But Bruce Wayne is the man behind the mask. Any torture he causes to Bruce Wayne can affect the Batman as well, at least I'd think so.

It'd be interesting to see what Joker's reaction would be if he tormented Bruce Wayne/Batman to the point where Batman kills for the first time (not the Joker, but someone else).

It's almost as if Joker wants to torment and torture Batman to the point where he becomes a killer. I think Bats would definitely go insane at that point. That of course is all speculation, seeing as he's gone through so much crap in the past that's gotten him close to killing.

Yes, but the joker is a twincy wincy bit doo-la. To him I'd imagine it being a case of pride. It's like all these villains who could go back in time and destroy superman whilst he was an infant (don't read superman, so dont know any, but im sure there some), but that takes away from the actual moment. Your not really deafeating someone if you dont take them down on a level playing field.

I don't think that the Joker wants to beat Batman so that he can go on killing random people and robbing banks, he wants to kill batman because he wants to win, he wants the satisfaction of knowing that he's better. At least that's my take on the character.

:)

[DWEarhart]

But Bruce Wayne is the man behind the mask. Any torture he causes to Bruce Wayne can affect the Batman as well, at least I'd think so.

It'd be interesting to see what Joker's reaction would be if he tormented Bruce Wayne/Batman to the point where Batman kills for the first time (not the Joker, but someone else).

It's almost as if Joker wants to torment and torture Batman to the point where he becomes a killer. I think Bats would definitely go insane at that point. That of course is all speculation, seeing as he's gone through so much crap in the past that's gotten him close to killing.

The Joker would not want to admit to anyone, least of all himself that this lone pretty boy upstart rich son of bizzatch is the one that's been tormenting him all these years. What is lost in manyof his stories is that Joker is an intellect. If he found out Batman's identity, he would first go into a rage, killing everything and everyone in front of him, because he couldn't believe that this Mr. Moneybags is the one that's been standing in his way of - well, of what? Does the Joker want money? No. Power? Only enough to screw with people. He just wants attention.

He would ignore Wayne himself, but use Wayne's assets to get to Batman, yes, but he doesn't want anyone else to know who's been messing with him because to Joker, Batman is not an aristocrat, Batman is a demon, psychologically and physically, and this demon is the one that's been screwing with Joker's head for a long long time.

I agree that Joker would like to turn Batman into a killer, and maybe there's an underlying notion that the Joker is so miserable he wants to die, but he can't pull the trigger himself. He wants his tormentor to kill him. To do that, he kills the people of his city.

This is all just theoretical, but still a good case study.

[bw38]

The Joker would not want to admit to anyone, least of all himself that this lone pretty boy upstart rich son of bizzatch is the one that's been tormenting him all these years. What is lost in manyof his stories is that Joker is an intellect. If he found out Batman's identity, he would first go into a rage, killing everything and everyone in front of him, because he couldn't believe that this Mr. Moneybags is the one that's been standing in his way of - well, of what? Does the Joker want money? No. Power? Only enough to screw with people. He just wants attention.

He would ignore Wayne himself, but use Wayne's assets to get to Batman, yes, but he doesn't want anyone else to know who's been messing with him because to Joker, Batman is not an aristocrat, Batman is a demon, psychologically and physically, and this demon is the one that's been screwing with Joker's head for a long long time.

I agree that Joker would like to turn Batman into a killer, and maybe there's an underlying notion that the Joker is so miserable he wants to die, but he can't pull the trigger himself. He wants his tormentor to kill him. To do that, he kills the people of his city.

This is all just theoretical, but still a good case study.

With that level of analysis, one can make the exact same case for Bruce Wayne. He doesn't want money, or power. (he basically has both) Just attention. Now for Bruce Wayne, you can connect his need for attention and his identity as the Batman to his parent's death. It's pretty hard to grow up as a only kid and have both of your parents die while you're still young. Kids love to get attention, but obviously for Bruce he couldn't really get that from his parents after they died. Now for the Joker, where does his need for attention come from?

[lllhouselll]

maybe joker was abused as a kid so he wants attention

[rwe1138]

If Joker ever offed Bats, I could see one of two things happening:

1) He'd realize he's accomplished everything he's ever wanted and fragg himself, a la Kraven's Last Hunt

or (more likely)

2) He'd continue to go after the rest of the Bat Family, like Birdboy & Wingding, until they're all dead as well. Then go after Superman, just to show up Lexipoo.

[DWEarhart]

With that level of analysis, one can make the exact same case for Bruce Wayne. He doesn't want money, or power. (he basically has both) Just attention. Now for Bruce Wayne, you can connect his need for attention and his identity as the Batman to his parent's death. It's pretty hard to grow up as a only kid and have both of your parents die while you're still young. Kids love to get attention, but obviously for Bruce he couldn't really get that from his parents after they died. Now for the Joker, where does his need for attention come from?

Oh, hell yeah. Bruce was screwed up, so much that avenging his parents murder became an obesession.

Bruce attributed his dedication to seeking out justice as Batman to his parents' murder, and not wanting to see any other innocents harmed in his city. But, it's not about that anymore, he's grieved, and now after thirty years, it's about doing good. Superman and to a lesser extent Batman set a standard in the DCU. When you're a hero, you don't do it for grattitude, for attention, for any other reason than to do good. But, to think that Bruce wasn't mentally scarred for life after what happened to his parents is indeed foolish. He dresses up like a friggin' bat, of course he's loony. But he loves what he does. He loves being a hero not the acollades that come with it, otherwise you'd find Batman posing for magazine covers and showing up on talk shows.

Joker? We don't know where he comes from, what his background is. It appeared, right before Infinite Crisis, that DC was going to go ahead and use The Killing Joke as his official origin, as A.J. Lieberman had Joker returning to the circus from Killing Joke to recoup after taking a beating at the hands of Hush, but nothing has been made of it since, and after Superboy-Primes reality altering punch, everything is up in the air right now. Red Hood, Joker, and Batman all were supposed to die in the explosion at the end of Batman Annual #25, but again, Superboy-Prime erased that ending.

[Warning: Spoilers From The Killing Joke; in case you haven't read it yet]
His origin is still clouded. Alan Moore clearly stated in the past that Killing Joke was never meant to be an official origin story for the Joker, just a possible one. But, it was so damn good and near perfect - a struggling comedian, a pregnant wife, and no money at all. Some crooks offer him a gig, he just has to wear the red helmet and cloak, and everything that could have gone wrong did. He was scarred by the chemical bath, and the gangsters had his wife killed. He flipped. But, we don't know if it is the definitive origin or not, and personally I would prefer to keep it that way.
[Spoilers End]

We don't know where his need comes from, but his actions show that he needs it. The colorful clothes that he wears, the overly elaborate crimes that creat spectacles mimicking his vicious nature. He wants the spotlight, and he wants to get a reaction out of people, especially one that's so big, it kills them.

But that's my analysis. Everyone has their own, as they are warranted. Whatever DC decides Joker's origin to be, if they decide to give him one, thousands will love it, thousands will hate it, and thousands won't care. I love these characters, and just want to see them in the best stories possible.

[Kara Zor El]

Joker would definitely kill Batman if in the right mood. He may regret it later but he'd do it in a blink. If we are to believe that he wouldn't then you take all of the tension out of their encounters.
I don't think Batman need the Joker to exist though. If the Joker never appeared again it wouldn't bother me. I love the character but he has been overused. Batman has a career without the Clown Prince of Crime just as Bond has one without Blofelfd.

[TheLazy]

Joker would definitely kill Batman if in the right mood. He may regret it later but he'd do it in a blink. If we are to believe that he wouldn't then you take all of the tension out of their encounters.
I don't think Batman need the Joker to exist though. If the Joker never appeared again it wouldn't bother me. I love the character but he has been overused. Batman has a career without the Clown Prince of Crime just as Bond has one without Blofelfd.

I don't think Batman needs the Joker, but the Joker needs Batsy. That doesn't mean he wouldn't kill him, but he'd sure as hell regret it later. I think he might eevn become sane, and try to redeem himself. Actually i think that would make a good read. Copyrighting that idea here and now, you listening Didio, I want royalties

:)

[Alan2099]

Joker would kill Batman in a heartbeat and twice on Tuesday, then he'd make a big deal out of it, milking it for all it's worth, rubbing it in, and going on criminal rampages.

Then he'd start to get board.

He'd probably then try to find a new archenemy to fight and end up picking the wrong guy and getting wasted.

[DWEarhart]

I don't think Batman needs the Joker, but the Joker needs Batsy. That doesn't mean he wouldn't kill him, but he'd sure as hell regret it later. I think he might eevn become sane, and try to redeem himself. Actually i think that would make a good read. Copyrighting that idea here and now, you listening Didio, I want royalties

:)

Sorry, man. J.M. Dematteis sort of beat you to it. Legends o/t Dar Knight #65-#68: Going Sane. Joker thinks he's killed Batman, goes nuts (more), gets plastic surgery, and tries to adopt a normal life.

[TheLazy]

Sorry, man. J.M. Dematteis sort of beat you to it. Legends o/t Dar Knight #65-#68: Going Sane. Joker thinks he's killed Batman, goes nuts (more), gets plastic surgery, and tries to adopt a normal life.

Grrr, and I thought I had a keeper. Guess Ill have to stick with the 'Batman wakes up inside an Arkham cell' idea for my DC pitch. j/k

:)

[shaxper]

I think there are essentially two versions of the Joker out there. One simply delights in madness and flamboyance. It's not about committing the crime. It's about committing the crime with style. That kind of Joker would never kill Batman, because that Joker is more concerned with playing the game well than he is with winning it quickly. That's why Joker frequently sets his sight on the Robins. He call kill them without ending the game. By the same token, this Joker would never unmask Batman, because the game would lose its charm if Batman were to lose his mystique. The Joker doesn't want to fight a man. He can do that any day. He enjoys toying with the legend.

However, the other depiction of the Joker (more consistant with his earliest appearances in the 1940s) is incredibly logical and devious. He uses his "madness" as a distraction with which he can fool and misdirect his foes. I think that Joker would kill Batman in a heartbeat. I don't think this Joker would care about unmasking Batman. He wouldn't even bother. He'd just kill him quickly and be done with it.

E

[TheLazy]

I think there are essentially two versions of the Joker out there. One simply delights in madness and flamboyance. It's not about committing the crime. It's about committing the crime with style. That kind of Joker would never kill Batman, because that Joker is more concerned with playing the game well than he is with winning it quickly. That's why Joker frequently sets his sight on the Robins. He call kill them without ending the game. By the same token, this Joker would never unmask Batman, because the game would lose its charm if Batman were to lose his mystique. The Joker doesn't want to fight a man. He can do that any day. He enjoys toying with the legend.


E


thats the version of the joker that I like

:)

[DWEarhart]

I think there are essentially two versions of the Joker out there. One simply delights in madness and flamboyance. It's not about committing the crime. It's about committing the crime with style. That kind of Joker would never kill Batman, because that Joker is more concerned with playing the game well than he is with winning it quickly. That's why Joker frequently sets his sight on the Robins. He call kill them without ending the game. By the same token, this Joker would never unmask Batman, because the game would lose its charm if Batman were to lose his mystique. The Joker doesn't want to fight a man. He can do that any day. He enjoys toying with the legend.

However, the other depiction of the Joker (more consistant with his earliest appearances in the 1940s) is incredibly logical and devious. He uses his "madness" as a distraction with which he can fool and misdirect his foes. I think that Joker would kill Batman in a heartbeat. I don't think this Joker would care about unmasking Batman. He wouldn't even bother. He'd just kill him quickly and be done with it.

E

That is the one that A.J. Lieberman was using in Gotham Knights, during the finale of the books run. I enjoyed that rendition as much as the insane one, but the majority of the fans didn't, and were very vocal about it.

Granted, there were other things still wrong with the latter issues of that title (gaping plot holes for one), but Lieberman was taking the Joker where no other writer had ever had, except for Alan Moore, and that was home. He was showing us tht Joker had feelings, was clear and concise in his thinking. I'm annoyed that the Joker found the name of the man that killed his wife, and then the story was never resolved.

Superboy-Prime power punch to the rescue.

[niall mc cann]

[Warning: Spoilers From The Killing Joke; in case you haven't read it yet]
His origin is still clouded. Alan Moore clearly stated in the past that Killing Joke was never meant to be an official origin story for the Joker, just a possible one. But, it was so damn good and near perfect - a struggling comedian, a pregnant wife, and no money at all. Some crooks offer him a gig, he just has to wear the red helmet and cloak, and everything that could have gone wrong did. He was scarred by the chemical bath, and the gangsters had his wife killed. He flipped. But, we don't know if it is the definitive origin or not, and personally I would prefer to keep it that way.
[Spoilers End]



I didn't used to like The Killing Joke. It seemed to me gratuitous and not that heartfelt, compared to Moore's other DC work. Then a poster on here that some of you may know called Cei-U very slowly and carefuly walked me through the book, pointing out connections that i hadn't made, and interesting little asides that i hadn't seen, and it culminated in something that really changed the book right around for me; one of the central points he made was that the book itself encourages us not to trust that very origin that it itself has related to us.

Though the story is told through a series of the Joker's own flashbacks, the Joker himself admits ,near the end of the book in a moment of panic, to Bats that every time he thinks back on how it all started, he feels like he's remembering it a different way every time. The Joker himself does not really believe the story he's remembering. It was also pointed out to me by Cei-U that there are several background references that place The Killing Joke definitively in golden age Bats continuity, where the Red Hood was never portrayed as a the bungling dupe bullied by his henchmen that the Joker recalls.

As far as i remember it was Cei-U's thesis that The Killing Joke was not the story of an insane man, but the story of a sane man who simply chooses to reject sanity; to behave in an insane way. To knowingly and rationally commit the kind of hideous crimes he always has and simply say to himself "who cares? I'm nuts."

I'm probably butchering Cei-U's great posts, but they're probably not on here anymore. He had some great thoughts on The Killing Joke, and the Joker. I'm sure if he still posts here he'd be okay with sharing them again; they really gave me a whole new perspective on things. I might just do a search and see if still does be on here.

[Nefarius]

Well,we can't tell for sure what would be his reaction if he ever manage to beat Batman.But looking many episodes of BTAS(many episodes dealing with that matter)Joker is upredictable.In "the man who killed Batman" Joker felt sad because a miserable crook steal his opportunity to overcome Batman's logic with his great comical intellect but after his eulogy for Batman he appear that he can survive even without Batman despite that "without Batman,crime doesn't have punchlines".Also in "Mad Love" when Harley said why he just shoot the Batman,Joker,very angry,said to Harley that "the death of Batman must be a masterpiece,the thriumph of my sheer comical genius over his rudiculus mask and gadgets".At the end of the episode he deside to kill a chained Batman with a gun despite the fact that it would be too simple and boring to kill Batsy without an artistic way.My point is that we can predict the behavior of Joker because even for the death of Batman,Joker is widely illogical.

[hollando]

as pointed out above me

In the jokers twisted head only he and he alone kill the bats

but not just kill

humiliate

torture

maybe even make him laugh

would he unmask him? probably not, whats the point it would take away from all the fun plus he probably knows his identity

the only way joker would kill the bats is by doing something so twisted and unforgivable
something like someone pointed out about killing all his allies, then beating him with a crowbar hint hint then dipping him in the same chemical vats he fell into.......finally leaving him to die in a room in the asylum tied up with a trap set for when the door opens to electricute the dark knight and of he'll need to be watching all of this

[bw38]

as pointed out above me

In the jokers twisted head only he and he alone kill the bats

but not just kill

humiliate

torture

maybe even make him laugh

would he unmask him? probably not, whats the point it would take away from all the fun plus he probably knows his identity

the only way joker would kill the bats is by doing something so twisted and unforgivable
something like someone pointed out about killing all his allies, then beating him with a crowbar hint hint then dipping him in the same chemical vats he fell into.......finally leaving him to die in a room in the asylum tied up with a trap set for when the door opens to electricute the dark knight and of he'll need to be watching all of this

I just wanted to point out that, how is it possible to say that the Joker probably knows Batman's identity, but yet that if he unmasked him it would take away from all the fun. If he already knows then I would think the Joker would have stopped having fun a long time ago. It can't be both ways. Either the Joker knows Batman's identity and he just doesn't give a damn that it's Bruce Wayne under the mask, or he doesn't know and doesn't want to know because if he does find out it will drive him crazier. I just wanted to point that out because you're not the first one to say this and this is the only logical way I can look at it. It just can't be both. I don't think the Joker knows Batman's identity.

I'd be curious to know why some people have said that he probably knows his identity. Was there a comic book hinting at this possibility?

[hollando]

I just wanted to point out that, how is it possible to say that the Joker probably knows Batman's identity, but yet that if he unmasked him it would take away from all the fun. If he already knows then I would think the Joker would have stopped having fun a long time ago. It can't be both ways. Either the Joker knows Batman's identity and he just doesn't give a damn that it's Bruce Wayne under the mask, or he doesn't know and doesn't want to know because if he does find out it will drive him crazier. I just wanted to point that out because you're not the first one to say this and this is the only logical way I can look at it. It just can't be both. I don't think the Joker knows Batman's identity.

I'd be curious to know why some people have said that he probably knows his identity. Was there a comic book hinting at this possibility?

well unmasking him would show the bats.......yah im not even gonna bother
i believe during my post i was focusing on to obvious polar idea so ill leave it with this little note
just remember if it dosnt make sence it took place in an alternate universe

[hollando]

I just wanted to point out that, how is it possible to say that the Joker probably knows Batman's identity, but yet that if he unmasked him it would take away from all the fun. If he already knows then I would think the Joker would have stopped having fun a long time ago. It can't be both ways. Either the Joker knows Batman's identity and he just doesn't give a damn that it's Bruce Wayne under the mask, or he doesn't know and doesn't want to know because if he does find out it will drive him crazier. I just wanted to point that out because you're not the first one to say this and this is the only logical way I can look at it. It just can't be both. I don't think the Joker knows Batman's identity.

I'd be curious to know why some people have said that he probably knows his identity. Was there a comic book hinting at this possibility?

the point was brought up because
of the fact that in order to make plotlines seem more important the villian finds out the hero's identity.....i.e. every batman movie evermade.........in any case if there is any villain that would know of bats identity it rightfully should be the joker.......

[marshal99]

I think it was implied in Emperor Joker that Joker needs the bat , which is why he doesn't kill bats outright when he had those cosmic powers but rather torture him endlessly , to break him physically and mentally.

[TheLazy]

as pointed out above me

In the jokers twisted head only he and he alone kill the bats

but not just kill

humiliate

torture

maybe even make him laugh

would he unmask him? probably not, whats the point it would take away from all the fun plus he probably knows his identity

the only way joker would kill the bats is by doing something so twisted and unforgivable
something like someone pointed out about killing all his allies, then beating him with a crowbar hint hint then dipping him in the same chemical vats he fell into.......finally leaving him to die in a room in the asylum tied up with a trap set for when the door opens to electricute the dark knight and of he'll need to be watching all of this

You just finished watching Saw?:rolleyes:


I just wanted to point out that, how is it possible to say that the Joker probably knows Batman's identity, but yet that if he unmasked him it would take away from all the fun. If he already knows then I would think the Joker would have stopped having fun a long time ago. It can't be both ways. Either the Joker knows Batman's identity and he just doesn't give a damn that it's Bruce Wayne under the mask, or he doesn't know and doesn't want to know because if he does find out it will drive him crazier. I just wanted to point that out because you're not the first one to say this and this is the only logical way I can look at it. It just can't be both. I don't think the Joker knows Batman's identity.

I'd be curious to know why some people have said that he probably knows his identity. Was there a comic book hinting at this possibility?

All badguys know their nemisis' identity;)

:)

[hollando]

You just finished watching Saw?:rolleyes:



All badguys know their nemisis' identity;)

:)

no but it would be interesting to see how
batman and robin would deal with being chained to a bathroom floor and a hacksaw

[metalhead_dave743]

Grrr, and I thought I had a keeper. Guess Ill have to stick with the 'Batman wakes up inside an Arkham cell' idea for my DC pitch. j/k

:)

Sorry, BTAS took that one already.

[Kara Zor El]

Sorry, BTAS took that one already.

And Shadow of The Bat.

[TheLazy]

You see, like the Batman, I have a third plan at hand. *pats superboy on the back* lets make sure them damn stories never happened. *evil laugh*:D

:)

[ZacharyLovesYou]

If Joker ever offed Bats, I could see one of two things happening:

1) He'd realize he's accomplished everything he's ever wanted and fragg himself, a la Kraven's Last Hunt

or (more likely)

2) He'd continue to go after the rest of the Bat Family, like Birdboy & Wingding, until they're all dead as well. Then go after Superman, just to show up Lexipoo.


First off, I agree with the Kraven's last hunt scenario. Batman and Joker need eachother (yes, even if he has a whole line of baddies in his rogue's gallery). Without the Joker, Batman wouldn't be half of the character he's developed into today. Besides, who in their right mind wants to see the Joker get killed off?? What's so great about him, is that he can do random killings, or grand schemes to torture batman at the drop of a hat. He is, and still remains after all these years, his most unpredictable adversary.

Secondly, holy shit. That was a lot of nicknames in the "2)" of that quote.

[AMrBean]

If the joker is just about to kill Batman, why would he care who Batman is? At that point it would be moot. They only reason the Joker, IMO, would want to know Batman's idenity would be to attack the idenity, not just Batman.

I say the Joker would not unmask Batman.

[rwe1138]

Secondly, holy shit. That was a lot of nicknames in the "2)" of that quote.

When I was typing it, I had Mark Hamill's voice in my head. :D

[ZacharyLovesYou]

When I was typing it, I had Mark Hamill's voice in my head. :D

Oh man... No one could take his title as the 'voice' of the joker. Any time I read him in a Batman book, I imagine Hamill speaking.

[rwe1138]

Oh man... No one could take his title as the 'voice' of the joker. Any time I read him in a Batman book, I imagine Hamill speaking.

Yup, me too. And that ain't a bad thing.

[mattx110]

i don't like the idea of joker being a polar opposite. he's a criminal. batman stops criminals, he's too arrogant to declare one badguy an archnemesis, especially when he has so many recurring foes.
i'd also like to think joker wouldn't mind killing batman, but given he's nuts as all hell, maybe he has developed an unhealthy obssession with batman. but with a nightwing and a robin around, i think the joker wouldn't mind killing batman and moving on to the next one.
i think after the idea of joker being a sort of necessary enemy for baman in the 80s, writers went out of their way to make it so, by getting more and more personal with who joker kills.

i think if the next batman film goes out of it's way for the enemies to know his identity it would run contrary to the "it's not important who you are, but what you do" thing. his function is to be batman, and that alone creates conflict with nutso badguys. he doesn't need to get any more personal for it to be personal for him. he's batman out of guilt, fear and courage, it's very personal each time he brings in a crazy with a gun.

and in another note
Sorry, BTAS took that one already.
=BTAS based that episode on a comics story released in graphic novel format where bats turns himself over to arkham. at least i think it is, if i'm wrong sorrry, but if i'm right, it's out there.

[niall mc cann]

=BTAS based that episode on a comics story released in graphic novel format where bats turns himself over to arkham. at least i think it is, if i'm wrong sorrry, but if i'm right, it's out there.

It's called The Last Arkham by Alan Grant (i think) and Norm Breyfogle (i'm sure). One of my favourite Batman stories.

I don't know if it's still in print, but it's well worth looking out. Great stuff.

[tomstoyz]

I don't think the Joker would kill Batman because if you think about it if he wanted to he would have done it already. I mean, Batman is human & could easily be killed with a machine gun or bomb. he's NOT Superman for christ sake...LOL.

[niall mc cann]

I mean, Batman is human & could easily be killed with a machine gun or bomb.

I'd question the word "easily" there...

If Bats was easy to kill, he'd have been dead a looooooong time ago, i'd say.

[TheLazy]

I'd question the word "easily" there...

If Bats was easy to kill, he'd have been dead a looooooong time ago, i'd say.

Well technically, he should have been dead a long time ago, what is he like 120 now?;)

:)

[niall mc cann]

Well technically, he should have been dead a long time ago, what is he like 120 now?;)

:)


course not! that'd be silly!

He's closer to a hundred, i'd say. but he's still spry...:D

[The_green_listener]

IMO Joker lives to torment Batman and is constantly trying to get one up on him. Killing him would be like a child throwing away a computer game once it had been completed. Underneath the apparent hatred there is a huge amount of respect between the two I believe. The two of them wouldn't be the people they are if they didn't have each other

[niall mc cann]

IMO Joker lives to torment Batman and is constantly trying to get one up on him. Killing him would be like a child throwing away a computer game once it had been completed. Underneath the apparent hatred there is a huge amount of respect between the two I believe. The two of them wouldn't be the people they are if they didn't have each other

I have a hard time believing that Bats respects the Joker in any way? What is it that you feel he respects about him?

He had a good mind, once, maybe, but he wasted it, threw it away...

I don't see what Batman would respect about the Joker at all. I absolutely don't believe that his pesonality is somehow dependant on the Joker.

[4thHorseman]

I always thought about writing a story where Joker finds out Batmans identity. He shows up in the Batcave with the whole batfamily strapped to chairs, slowly torturing them when Batman shows up. But in the end, Joker telling him that it would be no fun to just kill him as Bruce Wayne, it would ruin the whole purpose etc etc etc. Wanted to show a cross with Morrison and Moore's Joker versions. A super intelligent version that Morrison had, but the somewhat human version that was shown at the end of Killing Joke that Moore did.

[The_green_listener]

I have a hard time believing that Bats respects the Joker in any way? What is it that you feel he respects about him?

He had a good mind, once, maybe, but he wasted it, threw it away...

I don't see what Batman would respect about the Joker at all. I absolutely don't believe that his pesonality is somehow dependant on the Joker.



Well Batman has gotten the better of pretty much every villain except for....The Joker. He's the only villain who can constantly play with his mind and in some cases get the better of him. Of course he respects him. I don't mean he likes him but for sure I think there is an underlying sense of respect for how he can play him

[mattx110]

maybe i'm projecting daredevil onto batman, but i don't think bruce has respect for any crazy or evil villian.he might recognize the damage the joker is capable of, but he doesn't see him as special, or at least shouldn't if you go to the core of who batman is. he respects life and wants to protect it, i don't think he could in good conscious be pro-death penalty even because the one thing that should really tee off batman is loss of human life. and he's too arrogant to respect people arrogant enough to think their life is worth more than others enough to kill.

although, batman is a character open to interpretation, BB, which i like for every other part of the film, still had bruce trapping the badguy in a monorail car and throwing him into a building, without making sure he disabled the device that could explode all water pipes and release fear gas first. he's lucky it blew up after it crashed without killing more people, and batman doesn't rely on luck.

[Alan2099]

Without the Joker, Batman wouldn't be half of the character he's developed into today.
Why do you say that? I really can't see how Joker has helped Batman develop much at all.

[niall mc cann]

Well Batman has gotten the better of pretty much every villain except for....The Joker.

I don't understand that either; Bats must have foiled the joker a million times.

Is that a reference to Jason Todd? Or Barbara Gordon? If it is, i don't think it follows that either of those acts made Bats respect the Joker, its just that the Joker makes it personal, time and again, whereas the other villains don't, generally.

Certainly, i don't thing they made the joker an intrinsic part of Bats' personality.

[Radical]

although, batman is a character open to interpretation, BB, which i like for every other part of the film, still had bruce trapping the badguy in a monorail car and throwing him into a building, without making sure he disabled the device that could explode all water pipes and release fear gas first. he's lucky it blew up after it crashed without killing more people, and batman doesn't rely on luck.

Meh, for me it's the whole "Bruce tries to shoot Joe Chill" part. :(

To get back on topic: Even if the Joker knew about Batman being Bruce, he'd probably just mess with Batman's head, turn it into a "does he know or doesn't he?" game.

[The_green_listener]

I don't understand that either; Bats must have foiled the joker a million times.

Is that a reference to Jason Todd? Or Barbara Gordon? If it is, i don't think it follows that either of those acts made Bats respect the Joker, its just that the Joker makes it personal, time and again, whereas the other villains don't, generally.

Certainly, i don't thing they made the joker an intrinsic part of Bats' personality.


Yea I kinda mis-wrote that what I meant to say was that the joker is the villain who has the most "one upmanship" to brag about. I dodn't mean that Batman has never gotten the better of him

[mattx110]

Meh, for me it's the whole "Bruce tries to shoot Joe Chill" part. :(

To get back on topic: Even if the Joker knew about Batman being Bruce, he'd probably just mess with Batman's head, turn it into a "does he know or doesn't he?" game.

well, you skipped the important part of my post :( my point was batman doesn't respect killing or killers. he shouldn't have any more respect for the joker than he does for any other murdering crazy.

[TheLazy]

well, you skipped the important part of my post :( my point was batman doesn't respect killing or killers. he shouldn't have any more respect for the joker than he does for any other murdering crazy.

What about Ras or Two-Face? Do you think that theres some underlying form of respect there? I like Dark Victory more than I should because I liked how the joker got jealous that Dent was stealing his thunder. Maybe the joker is seeking the batmans attention, maybe not respect, but some sort of recognition.

:)

[phantom1592]

I'm curious what we mean by "respect?" I've seen a couple of times during Robin training or with one of the girls they get the warning that if they ever see the Joker do NOT try to stop him. Get the Hell out of there!

That's a measure of respect.

In no way would I ever say he LIKES him or Apreciates him, but there is a respect for his abilities in there SOMEWHERE. Penguin and Man-bat don't get that kind of warnings.



As for the Joker, I do NOT think he knows, or wants to know who Batman is. It would ruin the fun. I also do not think Joker would ever straight out kill Batman. I DO believe that he would put him in super-amazing Deathtraps and walk away, But somewhere in his mind he just assumes Batman will get out and the games can continue.

I think he'd be extremely disappointed if he came back to his hideout and saw Batman's corpse in the Inflatible Electric Chair.

Funny thing is that I don't think HE even realizes that. In his mind he REALLY does want to kill Bats. Like Thanos, he keeps giving the hero a "chance" to beat him and sabotages himself.

As for Nightwing and Robin, He really doesn't care about them. They're sidekicks :rolleyes:

[mattx110]

What about Ras or Two-Face? Do you think that theres some underlying form of respect there? I like Dark Victory more than I should because I liked how the joker got jealous that Dent was stealing his thunder. Maybe the joker is seeking the batmans attention, maybe not respect, but some sort of recognition.

:)

he might think talia is nice, but i think that bats is more likely to take advantage of ra's al ghul's pretense of honor than actually respect the genocidal maniac.
and with two-face, he might have respected harvey dent, but there's more of a "fight it harvey, don't give in to the crazy inside you" than respect for two-face. he might try to separate the two personalities and respect one and not the other, but every year dent is not redeemed makes it harder to write bats as respecting harv as anything more than another crazy.

and the joker, i don't have a problem with him being obsessed with batman, and i don't mind every once in a while batman going "i need to take this freak down, he's too dangerous". respecting the amount of damage joker can do is different form respecting the joker for being a clever psychopath.

[SKETCHSANCHEZ]

I'd be curious to know why some people have said that he probably knows his identity. Was there a comic book hinting at this possibility?

I've always thought that "A death in the family" hinted at this possibility. When Joker is about to adress the UN, him and Bruce Wayne apparently have a "stare off" and (I believe, it's been awhile, someone else can comfirm or deny this) Bruce wonders if he actually knows.

[The Zapper]

Right on Phantom. I pretty much agree with what you just said.

[Xanrn]

They should just kill Joker off.

They overuse him way too much.

Batman doesn't need him.

He has become this ridiculous ott thing that walks away from Bomb blasts and being shot in the face. Just so the writers can use him again a few issues later.

Suspension of Disbelief only goes so far and when it comes to the Joker mine has gone.

How the hell he hasn't been lynched yet, or sentenced to death or killed while in Police custody, I don't know.

The Joker shows why Gotham is such a shithole, because the Cops are useless, the Courts are worse (for godsake they send him to Arkham Asylum everydamm time, noone can get of on insanity that many times) and Batman's idea of dealing with the Joker is to beat him up and leave him for the cops like he just stole someones purse.

They need to have a good story where the Joker finally goes to take his position as Satan's court jester. He dies and stays dead but his legacy lives on do to some insane cult or something or he uses money he has been hoarding for ages to put open contracts on the Bat family.

The only people who need the Joker are the Bat writers who use him like a crutch, instead of actually taking the time and effort to be creative.

[The Zapper]

Anyone who wants Joker to be killed off is going to be waiting a looooong time. Enjoy the wait. :p

[DoctorDoom]

Anyone who wants Joker to be killed off is going to be waiting a looooong time. Enjoy the wait. :p
Ah. It'll be funny to never see it happen.

[SKETCHSANCHEZ]

DC should do "the end" like marvel has.

It's a good concept that can, potentially, lead to great stories.

[PunisherFan]

Anyone who wants Joker to be killed off is going to be waiting a looooong time. Enjoy the wait. :p

Yeah they can't kill him off. There's a few villains that can't be killed off and The Joker is one of them. Probably Two-Face would be on that list as well, pretty much everyone else is fair game, maybe Penguin as well.

[Keehar]

They could very well kill The Joker. But he'll never stay dead ;)