Batman Begins was about Batman, Not Bruce Wayne

[Chubaka]

Bruce Wayne seemed to be portrayed as some rich guy with issues in Batman Begins. I also noticed they did not emphasize Bruce's physical strength and training too much, but just made it surface material, or allure - but this could be due to time constraints. Batman is nothing like Bruce Wayne. One Bruce puts on that cape and cowl, he ain't human anymore Bub (read JLA and any comic). That's why in Batman Begins, they made his voice wierd like that.

You see, for the first half of the movie, the audience is looking at Bruce Wayne and thinking, "ummmm okay... interesting... so what is Batman going to be like?". And then when Batman says, "I'm Batman", the audience is like, "who's Bruce Wayne?"

As for the lack of emphasis on Bruce Wayne's physical methods of training and the lack of his sweat and tears, I believe this is misleading. Bruce Wayne took great pains to become Batman, and I believe Batman Begins sorely lacked in portraying this to the audience. Perhaps it was necessary to compromise Bruce's character to shift him out of the limelight so that Batman can appear more majestic.

I hope that The Dark Knight enlightens the audience more on Bruce Wayne's efforts.

[CaptainAwesome]

Is there any real point to this? I mean, Katie Holms says as much at the end of the movie. Not the whole thing about bruce wayne not putting work into becoming Batman, but about him actually being Batman and not Bruce Wayne. BB pulled a Superman, in that its saying Bruce is really the mask and Bats is the real personality. Thats nothing new, its been done in the comics before. Im not saying that your point isnt valid, I just dont understand the reason for posting it. Is there some question about the movie in there?

[SMMM]

Is there any real point to this? I mean, Katie Holms says as much at the end of the movie. Not the whole thing about bruce wayne not putting work into becoming Batman, but about him actually being Batman and not Bruce Wayne. BB pulled a Superman, in that its saying Bruce is really the mask and Bats is the real personality. Thats nothing new, its been done in the comics before. Im not saying that your point isnt valid, I just dont understand the reason for posting it. Is there some question about the movie in there?

Exactly. The only time when he's not 'Batman' is when he has to put on a show, pretending to be an idiotic, drunken millionaire playboy. And he did that well enough in the hotel scene.

[lllhouselll]

Hotel scene FTW!!!

[kmeyers]

Bruce Wayne seemed to be portrayed as some rich guy with issues in Batman Begins. I also noticed they did not emphasize Bruce's physical strength and training too much, but just made it surface material, or allure - but this could be due to time constraints. Batman is nothing like Bruce Wayne. One Bruce puts on that cape and cowl, he ain't human anymore Bub (read JLA and any comic). That's why in Batman Begins, they made his voice wierd like that.

You see, for the first half of the movie, the audience is looking at Bruce Wayne and thinking, "ummmm okay... interesting... so what is Batman going to be like?". And then when Batman says, "I'm Batman", the audience is like, "who's Bruce Wayne?"

As for the lack of emphasis on Bruce Wayne's physical methods of training and the lack of his sweat and tears, I believe this is misleading. Bruce Wayne took great pains to become Batman, and I believe Batman Begins sorely lacked in portraying this to the audience. Perhaps it was necessary to compromise Bruce's character to shift him out of the limelight so that Batman can appear more majestic.

Have you even seen Batman Begins? Seriously?

[Chubaka]

I've seen it enough time.

But I phrased it all wrong. I should have been clearer. What I mean is that Batman Begins did not show the audience Bruce Wayne's efforts. They did not show us that it takes more than just a few push ups to become Batman. They only blanketly showed Bruce Wayne working out. I'm just saying this because as a weightlifter, its a hell of a lot harder to get a body like Batman than Batman Begins made it appear.

[Mikado]

I've seen it enough time.

But I phrased it all wrong. I should have been clearer. What I mean is that Batman Begins did not show the audience Bruce Wayne's efforts. They did not show us that it takes more than just a few push ups to become Batman. They only blanketly showed Bruce Wayne working out. I'm just saying this because as a weightlifter, its a hell of a lot harder to get a body like Batman than Batman Begins made it appear.

Well, would there have been a point to showing Bruce Wayne doing 2000 reps each morning? The point wasnt to show everything he did 24 hours a day, just the highlights....or would you prefer a movie that took 7 years to watch? :p

[the goddamn batman]

This is ridiculous! Are we in fact talking about Batman Begins?

The same Batman Begins that doesn't even show Batman until at least a third into the movie?

The same Batman Begins that spends said third of the movie showing Bruce traveling the world, and training with the League of Shadows?

The same Batman Begins that runs over 2 hours as is... and you think they underplayed his training? It's not a Kevin Costner movie. How long does it need to be?

You complain that Bruce is a rich guy with issues... when that is exactly what he is!

And and and, you complain that a movie called Batman Begins is about Batman?

What. The. Fuck?

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. This is better than the Halloween III/Batman Begins thread.

Seriously.

[Monkey]

I've seen it enough time.

But I phrased it all wrong. I should have been clearer. What I mean is that Batman Begins did not show the audience Bruce Wayne's efforts. They did not show us that it takes more than just a few push ups to become Batman. They only blanketly showed Bruce Wayne working out. I'm just saying this because as a weightlifter, its a hell of a lot harder to get a body like Batman than Batman Begins made it appear.

er... did you see the start of the film?

[Chubaka]

I mean that his training was just basically glossed over. They did not break down the heuristics and details of how he trains. They just showed him doing push ups and a few sword fights with ninjas in the mountains. Some kid will look at this and think that it doesn't really take much beyond that to become Batman. How many hours? How much effort did it take?

[Kaos]

I mean that his training was just basically glossed over. They did not break down the heuristics and details of how he trains. They just showed him doing push ups and a few sword fights with ninjas in the mountains. Some kid will look at this and think that it doesn't really take much beyond that to become Batman. How many hours? How much effort did it take?

yeah cos all the kids are gonna run off to asia and train to be ninjas.

[kmeyers]

I mean that his training was just basically glossed over. They did not break down the heuristics and details of how he trains. They just showed him doing push ups and a few sword fights with ninjas in the mountains. Some kid will look at this and think that it doesn't really take much beyond that to become Batman. How many hours? How much effort did it take?

years and years of depending on himself...and then he had a few years of ninja training.

It's a movie, not realtime.

[Chubaka]

In Batman Forever - an amazing Batman movie - Val Kilmer appeared more athletic with the sweat pouring from him in the cave where he was arguing with Chris O Donnel.

But in Batman Begins, Christian Bale did not sweat or showed too many signs of physical exercise. It was all 5 second clips and flashbacks. He was a big guy. His body was big, but his abs weren't as good as it was in American Psycho.

He seemed less physical than Val Kilmer's Batman to be honest. Kilmer's Bruce Wayne also made referrence to rock climbing while talking to Dr. Chase (Nicole Kidman) in the circus.

[bw38]

Well that's proves it. You think Batman Forever was an amazing movie. Nothing else needs to be said. :P

[singoalla]

I'll have to go with: No, you haven't watched the movie.

Rich guy with issues: He saw his parents murdered. That'll give anyone issues. 90% of the movie he walks around angry, except for when he puts on his fop-face and buys hotels. Bruce Wayne the air-headed billionaire is the mask. Or did think it was the other way around?

In the jail scene he uses at least 3 diff. MA styles. On the mountain top we see jiu-jitsu, and other styles of fighting, including training with bo-staffs and swords. Alfred says Bruce has been gone SEVEN YEARS! (that's implied, 7 years of training, along with the implied passing of time on the mountain top.)


Originally Posted by Chubaka View Post
In Batman Forever - an amazing Batman movie - Val Kilmer appeared more athletic with the sweat pouring from him in the cave where he was arguing with Chris O Donnel.

Are you saying that because Kilmer sweats more, he must be fitter? Riight. memo to Bale: Next movie, don't work out and bother with building up muscle mass, just douse yourself in oil. It will fool people just as well.
Then again, you must be taking the piss. Anyone who thinks B:F was amazing just has to be joking.

[TheLazy]

I just thought I'd get a comment in here before this thread gets closed for being utterly pointless.

For the first time ever I can truely say I agree with the popular opinion that you either didnt watch the movie or you didnt understand it. When a movie spends 40-50 minutes on Bruce Wayne training, it assumes the audience will be able to work out that this isn't 40-50 mintues of training that Bruce Wayne undertook, just the 40-50 minute highlights from say 7 years worth of training!

:)

[Chubaka]

Alright here, I'll say it better. Batman Begins did not get into the heuristics and brutality of Bruce Wayne's training method. They basically showed flashbacks and 2 minute swordfights in the mountains. I seriously wished I could have seen Bruce Wayne doing serious physical training. I hope that The Dark Knight goes more in that direction; because Batman Begins only glossed it over. I did not find his training was brutal enough. The teaser trailers gave me high expectations of seeing Bruce Wayne himself actually practicing martial arts.

Kind of similar to the Ong Bak or the Zorro movies.

[niall mc cann]

Alright here, I'll say it better. Batman Begins did not get into the heuristics and brutality of Bruce Wayne's training method. They basically showed flashbacks and 2 minute swordfights in the mountains. I seriously wished I could have seen Bruce Wayne doing serious physical training. I hope that The Dark Knight goes more in that direction; because Batman Begins only glossed it over. I did not find his training was brutal enough. The teaser trailers gave me high expectations of seeing Bruce Wayne himself actually practicing martial arts.

Kind of similar to the Ong Bak or the Zorro movies.

I would say that Batman Begins shared a little of its structure with the Hopkins/Banderos(sp?) Zorro.

If you're really, really into bodybuilding, i guess i can understand how you might have liked to see the movie deal with that more, or if there was some obscure (to us) mistake made in his training regime that you are expert enough to notice i can see how it might have jarred you, but surely you understand that the bodybuilding was not in any way central to the character journey of Bruce Wayne that the film was most concerned with?

[hollando]

Bruce Wayne seemed to be portrayed as some rich guy with issues in Batman Begins. I also noticed they did not emphasize Bruce's physical strength and training too much, but just made it surface material, or allure - but this could be due to time constraints. Batman is nothing like Bruce Wayne. One Bruce puts on that cape and cowl, he ain't human anymore Bub (read JLA and any comic). That's why in Batman Begins, they made his voice wierd like that.

You see, for the first half of the movie, the audience is looking at Bruce Wayne and thinking, "ummmm okay... interesting... so what is Batman going to be like?". And then when Batman says, "I'm Batman", the audience is like, "who's Bruce Wayne?"

As for the lack of emphasis on Bruce Wayne's physical methods of training and the lack of his sweat and tears, I believe this is misleading. Bruce Wayne took great pains to become Batman, and I believe Batman Begins sorely lacked in portraying this to the audience. Perhaps it was necessary to compromise Bruce's character to shift him out of the limelight so that Batman can appear more majestic.

I hope that The Dark Knight enlightens the audience more on Bruce Wayne's efforts.

its all about the fact that it's a movie and anything more than an hour for the average person that dosn't read comics or dosn't a history on the character will become bored with the fact that the characters alter ego hasn't surfaced..... i do agree with misleading and forgetting how long it took and the pains it took for bruce to become batman.....ie getting stabbed by a pimp and his hoe, but once again time.....i think its nice to see for the first time in the fanchise is history to retell the story before the mask and cape...............and saying that i hope this sequel is not another of those i dont want to be a superhero/detective anymore.......like all of us im sure were curious as to how heath will measure up......although i still retain my vote for adrian brody

[Chubaka]

I would say that Batman Begins shared a little of its structure with the Hopkins/Banderos(sp?) Zorro.

If you're really, really into bodybuilding, i guess i can understand how you might have liked to see the movie deal with that more, or if there was some obscure (to us) mistake made in his training regime that you are expert enough to notice i can see how it might have jarred you, but surely you understand that the bodybuilding was not in any way central to the character journey of Bruce Wayne that the film was most concerned with?

I am not a professional bodybuilder, but I started lifting frequently again and I can appreciate Bale's physical preparation for the role, as it took him 3 hours a day for some 5 months of weightlifting. Although he gained a lot of fat also due to his overconsumption to compensate for his previous role in the Machinist, which explains why he was not as ripped as he was for his other movies in the early 2000s like American Psycho and Equilibrium.

Bale's physique reminded me of Sylvester Stallone's in the initial Rocky also. However, I believe Bale is actually bigger than Stallone. I found the character development for Batman Begins was closely related to Rocky I and the fact that both characters had their doubts. Rocky I played on doubt quite a bit more before that fight with Carl Weathers.

[Jaye]

Posts were deleted- stick to the topic. Do not reply just to insult someone. Kaos and meyers, you went way over the line.

Please keep it civil.

Thanks.

[niall mc cann]

I am not a professional bodybuilder, but I started lifting frequently again and I can appreciate Bale's physical preparation for the role, as it took him 3 hours a day for some 5 months of weightlifting. Although he gained a lot of fat also due to his overconsumption to compensate for his previous role in the Machinist, which explains why he was not as ripped as he was for his other movies in the early 2000s like American Psycho and Equilibrium.

Bale's physique reminded me of Sylvester Stallone's in the initial Rocky also. However, I believe Bale is actually bigger than Stallone. I found the character development for Batman Begins was closely related to Rocky I and the fact that both characters had their doubts. Rocky I played on doubt quite a bit more before that fight with Carl Weathers.

Well, i wouldn't see all that much connection between Rocky and BB, but then i wouldn't particularly be interested in the training or physique of the leading men (not that i'd mind having a physique like either:D ).

That aspect of the films just holds absolutely no interest for me, and i don't think it holds a lot of interest for the vast majority of the audiences that the films had/have. To me, to focus on that aspect entirely misses the point of both films - they're neither of them about physical fitness primarily, it's just that both protagonists need to be physically fit for the accomplishment of their major goals.

To me, Rocky is a film about determination and sacrifice, BB about identity and the self. That they both contain workout scenes is largely incedental, to me.

[rickfury188]

Are you saying that because Kilmer sweats more, he must be fitter? Riight. memo to Bale: Next movie, don't work out and bother with building up muscle mass, just douse yourself in oil. It will fool people just as well.
Then again, you must be taking the piss. Anyone who thinks B:F was amazing just has to be joking.

LMAO You just made my day. :)

[Choppa]

He's saying that his training wasn't really fleshed out that much. The beginning delt more with mental conditioning than physical. I understand what he means b/c I kind of feel the same way. There is a bit of a disconnect between what he learns in the beginning and what he is able to do as Batman, but I'm pretty sure that when we catch up with Bruce in the jail, he has already been training with various people. It's easy to misunderstand and think that Ra's solely trained him, but if you listen closely Ra's mentions that Bruce has had prior training.

[Choppa]

delete this

[Chubaka]

Well, i wouldn't see all that much connection between Rocky and BB, but then i wouldn't particularly be interested in the training or physique of the leading men (not that i'd mind having a physique like either:D ).

That aspect of the films just holds absolutely no interest for me, and i don't think it holds a lot of interest for the vast majority of the audiences that the films had/have. To me, to focus on that aspect entirely misses the point of both films - they're neither of them about physical fitness primarily, it's just that both protagonists need to be physically fit for the accomplishment of their major goals.

To me, Rocky is a film about determination and sacrifice, BB about identity and the self. That they both contain workout scenes is largely incedental, to me.


I agree that those aspects were by far not the focus of the film, but I think that given that Batman Begins was an origin, many people might anticipate Bruce's physical preparation to becoming Batman.

[Chubaka]

He's saying that his training wasn't really fleshed out that much. The beginning delt more with mental conditioning than physical. I understand what he means b/c I kind of feel the same way. There is a bit of a disconnect between what he learns in the beginning and what he is able to do as Batman, but I'm pretty sure that when we catch up with Bruce in the jail, he has already been training with various people. It's easy to misunderstand and think that Ra's solely trained him, but if you listen closely Ra's mentions that Bruce has had prior training.

Thankyou. This is what I had in mind. There is a gap between what Bruce Wayne learns and what he is capable of doing once he puts on the costume. Like one person said, this movie kind of goes over people's heads when they first see it because they know it's an origin story and they expect to see Bruce Wayne training, not fighting in the mud with criminals, or having self-doubts about his mission.

When I said Batman Begins was misleading, I mean exactly those types of scenes that are ambiguous - like the starting when he's fighting in the mud or getting beaten up by Ras. It is almost impossible to tell whether he is already skilled in Martial Arts or whether he has to learn everything from Ras. When it comes to movies, fighting 6 men isn't all that impressive relatively speaking. That is why it is hard to tell whether we are looking at a skilled martial artist or a street brawler.

[kmeyers]

I agree that those aspects were by far not the focus of the film, but I think that given that Batman Begins was an origin, many people might anticipate Bruce's physical preparation to becoming Batman.

The movie starts outwith him able to take on six guys at once...fairly easily. He has to have been doing that for quite a long time to get that good. He has been fighting and struggling to survive ever since he left Gotham with nothing, which is shown to be a pretty long time.

Then he goes and trains even more with ninjas, where he becomes the top student.

I think they summed up 7 years of preparation and training very well without the movie being impossibly long.

[kmeyers]

Thankyou. This is what I had in mind. There is a gap between what Bruce Wayne learns and what he is capable of doing once he puts on the costume. Like one person said, this movie kind of goes over people's heads when they first see it because they know it's an origin story and they expect to see Bruce Wayne training, not fighting in the mud with criminals, or having self-doubts about his mission.
Fighting six guys in the mud is training. He could escape if he really wanted to. Ra's says as much to him.


When I said Batman Begins was misleading, I mean exactly those types of scenes that are ambiguous - like the starting when he's fighting in the mud or getting beaten up by Ras. It is almost impossible to tell whether he is already skilled in Martial Arts or whether he has to learn everything from Ras. When it comes to movies, fighting 6 men isn't all that impressive relatively speaking. That is why it is hard to tell whether we are looking at a skilled martial artist or a street brawler.
It's obvious that he's a skilled martial artist when he's taking on the six guys fairly easily, and then when fighting Ra's. Ra's calls out all of the different styles Bruce is using while they fight. Ra's is just on a totally different level at that point, plus Bruce was exhausted from climbing a giant mountain.

Ra's even mentions that Bruce has a strong foundation, but if he wants to be on an entirely different level, he must learn from him.

[Chubaka]

I agree, they did sum up 7 years pretty well.

The thing is that this movie has a reputation of explaining everything about Batman for people who have never read a Batman comic. It was hyped as an origin story. Some Year One fans thought that using unknown criminals who pose large-scale threats instead of well-known villains would have been closer to comics.

[rickfury188]

It would have been awesome if they included a scene where Alfred is bringing a young Bruce his lunch to his room, and on the way over there he glances into the house library and sees young Bruce reading a book on Chemistry or something. He'd then ask what he's doing and Bruce would just say reading or something. That would have showed how he actually started training his mind long before he started training his body.

[hollando]

I agree, they did sum up 7 years pretty well.

The thing is that this movie has a reputation of explaining everything about Batman for people who have never read a Batman comic. It was hyped as an origin story. Some Year One fans thought that using unknown criminals who pose large-scale threats instead of well-known villains would have been closer to comics.

isnt that the whole point of makeing a movie adaptation of a comic book.....to try and find a balance between what comic fans want and what the general public will be able to comprehend.......for instance instead of just getting my 10 bucks they can get my gf money to double the profit right their...... as for its hype as an origin story, the movie comes closer than any of the other films have come in comparison of relativity.........its the first time we get to see bruce before he becomes bats and isnt a scared child.........as for your thoughts of fans of the year one series......lets face it bats fighting off some pimp for beating his hoe isnt gonna get anyone to come in........if i wanted to see that id simply pick up the book...............

[BYC]

It would have been hilarious if they did a 80s training montage for Bruce Wayne.

You're the best, arrrroouunnddd!
Nothing's ever gonna keep you down!

Now that you bring it up, yeah, it think they did it a bit too fast. But then again, I find myself not liking Batman Begins nearly as much as when I first saw it. Go ahead, flame it.

[hollando]

It would have been hilarious if they did a 80s training montage for Bruce Wayne.

You're the best, arrrroouunnddd!
Nothing's ever gonna keep you down!

Now that you bring it up, yeah, it think they did it a bit too fast. But then again, I find myself not liking Batman Begins nearly as much as when I first saw it. Go ahead, flame it.

gotcha with a white blazer, t shirt, and a purple and black striped tie

[Chubaka]

It would have been awesome if they included a scene where Alfred is bringing a young Bruce his lunch to his room, and on the way over there he glances into the house library and sees young Bruce reading a book on Chemistry or something. He'd then ask what he's doing and Bruce would just say reading or something. That would have showed how he actually started training his mind long before he started training his body.

I personally favor the less intelligent, yet more clever Bruce Wayne. I don't think it is absolutely necessary to be uber-intelligent in order to be an incredible detective. Too many superheroes like Spiderman already play up the scientific genius aspects and frankly I grow tired of it. The uber-intelligent Batman only becomes absolutely necessary for me when he's working as an inventor and computer programmer for the JLA. But that is only because he's one of the few humans, they do exactly the same thing for Mr. Terrific. Other than that, reasonable intelligence, and most importantly, years of training, along with cool technology is all that is necessary to be a great superhero. In the movie, I noticed they took Chemistry away from Batman's arsenal of knowledge, but replaced it with more experience with criminals, and that works better for me. Leave the uber-intelligence for Dr.Doom, Richard Reed and Spiderman. Give Batman the experience (something most geniuses lack), and the practicality.

[Chubaka]

It would have been hilarious if they did a 80s training montage for Bruce Wayne.

You're the best, arrrroouunnddd!
Nothing's ever gonna keep you down!


Flying higher through the night
spread your wings and flyyyyyyy

[lonewolf23k]

Actually, I think the point that was made at the end of the movie is that neither "Batman the Dark Knight" nor "Bruce Wayne the party-loving Billionaire Playboy" actually represents the "real" Bruce Wayne.

When he puts on the cowl, he darkens his voice and plays the tough guy. When he goes out in public, he acts like an irresponsible, lecherous rich twit. Only those whom he allows to get close to him actually get to see the real Bruce...

[TheLazy]

I personally favor the less intelligent, yet more clever Bruce Wayne. I don't think it is absolutely necessary to be uber-intelligent in order to be an incredible detective. Too many superheroes like Spiderman already play up the scientific genius aspects and frankly I grow tired of it. The uber-intelligent Batman only becomes absolutely necessary for me when he's working as an inventor and computer programmer for the JLA. But that is only because he's one of the few humans, they do exactly the same thing for Mr. Terrific. Other than that, reasonable intelligence, and most importantly, years of training, along with cool technology is all that is necessary to be a great superhero. In the movie, I noticed they took Chemistry away from Batman's arsenal of knowledge, but replaced it with more experience with criminals, and that works better for me. Leave the uber-intelligence for Dr.Doom, Richard Reed and Spiderman. Give Batman the experience (something most geniuses lack), and the practicality.

Batman should be more than muscle. To me, he could drop the cape and cowl for all I care, but batman is a DETECTIVE. And as such he needs to be very intellegent. That doesn't mean he has to know how many electrons are in a Sodium Sulphate Ion like PP or RR, but he needs to have a good knowledge of the scentces, a good knowledge of history, literature, ect. Because if he is just a guy whos 'rents were killed and has an inner demon driving t him to fight, then he's basically just daredevil with monet and without powers.

A fundemental part of becoming batman is that he 'does what the police cannot', to quote TLH. Meaning he should essentially be an uber-cop.

:)

[Mia]

Actually, I think the point that was made at the end of the movie is that neither "Batman the Dark Knight" nor "Bruce Wayne the party-loving Billionaire Playboy" actually represents the "real" Bruce Wayne.

When he puts on the cowl, he darkens his voice and plays the tough guy. When he goes out in public, he acts like an irresponsible, lecherous rich twit. Only those whom he allows to get close to him actually get to see the real Bruce...

Brilliant!!!


Batman should be more than muscle. To me, he could drop the cape and cowl for all I care, but batman is a DETECTIVE. And as such he needs to be very intellegent. That doesn't mean he has to know how many electrons are in a Sodium Sulphate Ion like PP or RR, but he needs to have a good knowledge of the scentces, a good knowledge of history, literature, ect. Because if he is just a guy whos 'rents were killed and has an inner demon driving t him to fight, then he's basically just daredevil with monet and without powers.

A fundemental part of becoming batman is that he 'does what the police cannot', to quote TLH. Meaning he should essentially be an uber-cop.

:)


Bloody Brilliant!!!

[trickster]

His body was big, but his abs weren't as good as it was in American Psycho.

Yeah, well he was a kid in American Psycho. How many years has it been since then? People age... unfortunately.


closely Ra's mentions that Bruce has had prior training.

No he actually means he's had training with Ra's. IOW, "I've been trained by someone/Nobody trained him".

Well, he is a supercop. He's got spy gear, can go above the law (let's face it, he's still a vigilante), can fight like no donut eating cop can, he's got that badass car. Should I go on?

[Black Atom]

I had a general problem with how directionless Bruce was. As far as we could tell, he hadn't accomplished jack squat up until college, when he decided to assassinate his parents' killer. He doesn't really strike out on his own until Rachel urges him to. The most important crime fighting techniques he learns (including the idea of "becoming a symbol") come from Ra's and the gadgets he relies on the most have already been invented by Lucius. This Batman doesn't have the inventiveness and self-reliance that I tend to expect from Batman.

[Chubaka]

You're right about the self-reliance Black Atom, this Bruce was not what you would expect from the kind of direction and self-reliance as shown in the comics. That's why I said this movie made Bruce Wayne into nobody, and Batman into everything. But, and this is a big but, he was willing to search for that direction in some of the grittiest areas of Asia just to spend time around criminals. Criminals! (of all things) So he probably knew what he wanted to be (a crime fighter), but lacked the means of acheiving it. That's where Ra's and Lucious stepped in. Without them, he would still be rummaging throught jail cells in Asia. The technology and the skill brought him to become the Batman.

[Choppa]

Relax about the detective stuff, it's been hinted that the next flim will cover that.

IMO I like that each film delves into a different aspect of his abilities and then layers it on. It's different than previous incarnations where he could basically do everything right from the start.

[Chubaka]

I'm not complaining, really. I just noted how amazingly divided the character of Bruce Wayne was in Batman Begins. They made him both a lost soul while still giving him the advantages of athletic ability he is so well known for.

[hollando]

I'm not complaining, really. I just noted how amazingly divided the character of Bruce Wayne was in Batman Begins. They made him both a lost soul while still giving him the advantages of athletic ability he is so well known for.

eventhough i am a fan of CB and the american phyco movie........he is a very strange individual.......so perhaps in the movie we need to take bruce down a notch......because this is what CB lacks........as opposed to his clearly darker more melevolent side that we have seen in his past movies......even in the prestige ahahaha gooood movie....

[ZacharyLovesYou]

It would have been awesome if they included a scene where Alfred is bringing a young Bruce his lunch to his room, and on the way over there he glances into the house library and sees young Bruce reading a book on Chemistry or something. He'd then ask what he's doing and Bruce would just say reading or something. That would have showed how he actually started training his mind long before he started training his body.

I think that's a brilliant idea. I mean... To me, it felt like they just kind of sprang the vendetta that made Bruce Wayne Batman with the whole court scene, etc. I think they should've fleshed it out more, and shown a more vengeful/determined Bruce as a kid. Young Bruce just moped around in all of his scenes, and it would've been freakin' awesome if there was a scene where he'd shock alfred by breaking a moment of silence with how he wanted to kill his parents' murderer or something. Seems like it would've been easy since a child has more naive/clear definitions of retribution and right & wrong.

[infoghost]

This is ridiculous! Are we in fact talking about Batman Begins?

The same Batman Begins that doesn't even show Batman until at least a third into the movie?

The same Batman Begins that spends said third of the movie showing Bruce traveling the world, and training with the League of Shadows?

The same Batman Begins that runs over 2 hours as is... and you think they underplayed his training? It's not a Kevin Costner movie. How long does it need to be?

You complain that Bruce is a rich guy with issues... when that is exactly what he is!

And and and, you complain that a movie called Batman Begins is about Batman?

What. The. Fuck?

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. This is better than the Halloween III/Batman Begins thread.

Seriously.

What he said.