Vulnerability to Magic [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

MythicBrawn

01-02-2007, 12:01 PM

Superman has two known vulnerabilities: magic and kryptonite. Kryptonite and its effects have been shown pretty convincingly in comics. But, magic is another matter in itself. Does Magic completely eliminate Superman's invulnerability or what? Kingdom Come provides two good examples. Wonder Woman's sword was able to cut Superman's finger. The sword being magical was able to bypass Superman's invulnerability and draw blood. So, conceivably, the sword would have been able to kill him. Another example is when Captain Marvel hits Superman multiple times with the lightning. Superman was severly hurt but not killed. It was magical lightning, so shouldn't his invulnerability been nullified and Superman electrocuted?

I know there are other examples, but it seems that Superman's magic vulnerability is not nearly as severe as Kryptonite. And, it changes depending upon the circumstances. Bring Kryptonite in Superman's presence and he becomes powerless but magic is not nearly as consistent. If I was a Superman villain, I would put more stock in taking him down with Kryptonite than using magic. Superman is even shown to give more respect to Kryptonite than magic. Even red sunlight is more effective, and consistent, than magic.

davids

01-02-2007, 02:24 PM

Those demons could tear up some one with their claws and superman was no exception. As 5shown with him wounded in bed and being cared for by diana. They and their claws were magic and superman was vunerable to those claws as any one. It didn't mean those demons were imune to the punishment Superman dished out to them. Mortals might not have much of a chance against them, but then we mere mortals don't hit as hard as supes!

There are other ways Superman can over come a magical foe. For one moving so fast the magic user in question can not get a clear shot at him with some magical bolt. In the 70's or 80's supes did just that against Santanist!

If the bad guy can turn you into a frog he can do the same to superman. If Superman stands still long enough to get turned into a frog. we caint stop Billy batson from saying shazam, but superman can by taking hold of his jaw!

karasu

01-02-2007, 03:58 PM

His third, and most potent yet least mentioned vulnerability is a stronger punch.

dancj

01-03-2007, 05:01 AM

Superman's vulnerability to magic is often misunderstood (by writers and fans).

Magic is no big vulnerability of his really - it's just something that he has no particular invulnerability against (something which he shares with most superheroes). This means that if someone uses magic to turn him into a frog they can. If someone charms a blade or a hammer to make it do damage to whatever it hits then it will. If on the other hand someone charms a blade to be really really really sharp or charms a hammer to hit really really hard, then Superman's invulnerability will still work because it's not working directly against the magic. It may not be enough depending on how sharp the blade is or how hard the hammer hits, but his invulnerability will still give some protection.

Dan

666MasterOfPuppets

01-03-2007, 07:13 AM

During For Tomorrow, Diana used an enchanted knife against Superman, effectively hurting him (and then Superman threw A FREAKIN' DROP OF HIS BLOOD, piercing the knife's hilt. I mean, how cool is that? Otherwise, it would have seriously hurt Diana). during The Pantheon Of The Gods, one of them threw a magic arrow, hitting Superman. It caused him pain, but it didn't kill him.

One of the editors (Berganza, I think) mentioned once that magic affects Superman as it would any other human being. However, I don't think this is the case. Superman has clearly shown some level of resistance to magic, even though it still affects him.

Oh, and for those (including Jeph Loeb :rolleyes:) who think that Captain Marvel has the advantage over Superman because he's got "magic fists", let me tell you this: magic is the source of his powers, and only that. Thus, the magic gives him strength, but don't make his fists "magical", in the sense that they have some sort of spell, as Diana's magic-imbued knife does.

Karl O'Neill

01-03-2007, 07:25 AM

Magic merely hurts superman. it's can't kill him.

FOR EXEMPLE: lets say mighty black adam pounds superman into oblivion repetedly bang bang bang!
supermans krytonian physiology would withstand such impacts.

superboyprime maybe stronger again.

marshal99

01-03-2007, 09:56 AM

Well , a supernatural being can hurt him certainly - a vampire can claw him and pierce his skin as has been shown everytime he fought one. He can bleed when faced with a supernatural creature.

666MasterOfPuppets

01-03-2007, 11:40 AM

Yeah, he can bleed. But as shown in Superman #180, the vampire just dies, almost instantly.

MPagar

01-03-2007, 11:50 AM

Magic just strikes me as being added to his list of vulnerability because the lone entry of kryptonite may have seemed too minimal back then.

I think of it this way- He's weak to kryptonite.It can hurt him just by being there, and it's lethal every given time as long as he's within its vicinity.
Magic, on the other hand, is something he's vulnerable to, though not quite weak to.Magic, depending on the force, can be just as lethal. A magical arrow can hurt him, a summoned fireball can burn, etc., but in the end(and unlike constant exposure with kryptonite), his body's durability can sometimes play a role(depending on the writer), along with his natural ability to heal rapidly.

dupersuper

01-03-2007, 12:31 PM

I see it like this; despite being practically immortal (remember DC 1Million?), Superman is still technically a mortal being (just imbued with phenominal power from an external source). As dc has it, mortal=able to be affected by magic. HOWEVER, Supes invulnerabilty does help, also-since this is magic we're talking about- his own symbolic/iconic status helps him quite a bit.

karasu

01-03-2007, 01:12 PM

I wish he fought more magic people

dancj

01-04-2007, 04:56 AM

Magic merely hurts superman. it's can't kill him.

Nonsense. If you use a magic spell or an enchanted sword to chop him in half he would die (unless it was a spell that chopped him in half without killing him)

666MasterOfPuppets

01-06-2007, 01:38 PM

Magic just strikes me as being added to his list of vulnerability because the lone entry of kryptonite may have seemed too minimal back then.

Agreed. They thought they had the need to do it. I can't see the reason for such need, though.

Joe Acro

01-06-2007, 01:42 PM

dupersuper

01-06-2007, 04:53 PM

I think Joe Kelly did the red sun thing right in his Action issue that had Supes fight Kanjar Ro; Supes still had powers, but they depleted much faster than, say, Final Night when there was just no sun to power him. I think red solar energy drives out his collected yellow solar energy much like kryptonite does, just much slower and without replacing it with deadly radiation. Thus sufficiently powerful red solar energy weapons can cause him pain, but not seriously hurt him; and flying THROUGH the red sun in IC drove it all out almost immediately, leaving him just enough to survive crash landing on Mogo and fighting Superboy Prime.

sschroeder

01-06-2007, 05:55 PM

In Shadowpact # 1, Superman could not penetrate the magical barrier with any of his abilities.

Neither could Green Lantern (nor anyone else), so I guess GL rings aren't magical either or at least any good in that one case.

Damo

01-06-2007, 06:35 PM

Magic merely hurts superman. it's can't kill him.

Um. Yes. Yes it can. Where did you get that from?

Magic hurts him the same as anyone else. A deathspell that would kill a normal person will kill him.

But it's not like a "turn on the lights" spell will have him rolling in agony, like it's kryptonite or something.

dupersuper

01-06-2007, 07:06 PM

In Shadowpact # 1, Superman could not penetrate the magical barrier with any of his abilities.

Yes, but when was that? During IC? Because at the end of IC Supes was unpowered for the year...

dupersuper

01-06-2007, 07:08 PM

Um. Yes. Yes it can. Where did you get that from?

Magic hurts him the same as anyone else. A deathspell that would kill a normal person will kill him.

.

Don't underestimate the protection of Supes own symbolic status...

Damo

01-07-2007, 12:57 PM

Don't underestimate the protection of Supes own symbolic status...

It's the canon. Kryptonite could kill him too. His status at DC means it'll never happen, but that doesn't mean it couldn't theoretically.

karasu

01-07-2007, 01:28 PM

A "death spell"? wtf? 0_o

Karl O'Neill

01-07-2007, 01:39 PM

Nonsense. If you use a magic spell or an enchanted sword to chop him in half he would die (unless it was a spell that chopped him in half without killing him)

supermans Kryptonian physiology would withstand such impacts.

Constantine Drakon

01-07-2007, 01:42 PM

supermans Kryptonian physiology would withstand such impacts.

No, it wouldn't, because he has a vulnerability to magic. Hence the thread? Did you think we were just talking about a hypothetical vulnerability to magic? It's a weakness of his.

Karl O'Neill

01-07-2007, 01:43 PM

It's the canon. Kryptonite could kill him too. His status at DC means it'll never happen, but that doesn't mean it couldn't theoretically.

Good point. Dc wouldnt kill him.(again)

Doomsday made alot of people cry.

Karl O'Neill

01-07-2007, 01:49 PM

No, it wouldn't, because he has a vulnerability to magic. Hence the thread? Did you think we were just talking about a hypothetical vulnerability to magic? It's a weakness of his.

Im not 100% certain so i won't argue.

Next time im at a comic con.

I will ask the guys that write superman.

and Then i will accept. only then.

Karl O'Neill

01-07-2007, 01:51 PM

There's a funny joke in BKV's ex-machina.

Where the main character says- superman can die? witha massive shock on his face.

i love that moment, maybe this characters mirrors vaugh's exact thoughts.

Sean Whitmore

01-07-2007, 01:57 PM

Im not 100% certain so i won't argue.

Next time im at a comic con.

I will ask the guys that write superman.

and Then i will accept. only then.

Or you could save yourself the trip and read any of the hundreds of comics where Superman is affected by magic.

By the way, is it amazing to anyone else that this thread has gotten to two pages and Kurt Busiek hasn't appeared yet? :)

SEAN

Karl O'Neill

01-07-2007, 02:05 PM

Or you could save yourself the trip and read any of the hundreds of comics where Superman is affected by magic.

By the way, is it amazing to anyone else that this thread has gotten to two pages and Kurt Busiek hasn't appeared yet? :)

SEAN

Fair enuff,

I hope Black adam (magic) kills him after 52.
and thus becomes dc new posterboy/ man

Oh i hate being wrong.

Kurt Busiek

01-07-2007, 03:36 PM

By the way, is it amazing to anyone else that this thread has gotten to two pages and Kurt Busiek hasn't appeared yet? :)

Yours is the first post that says "Busiek" in it.

DanCJ had it right on page 1. Superman is vulnerable to Kryptonite, red-sun radiation and (post-Crisis) being hit wicked hard. Magic, on the other hand, he merely has no special invulnerability to.

Hit him with a spell turning him into a frog, he'll turn into a frog. Hit him with Dr. Fate's helmet, though, and it won't do anything, because hitting him with a magical object isn't any different than hitting him with a non-magical object. You have to use actual magic on him, not just have a magical object.

For instance, Wonder Woman is a magical being, but when she hits Superman, she's not using magic on him simply because she's created by magic. She's using force, and his invulnerability handles it. When she used that sword, it was enchanted to cut things, so it cut him. Had it been enchated to, say, sing out when being stolen, it wouldn't have cut him, because the magic wouldn't be involved.

Magic works on Superman the way it works on other people. There's magic that can be resisted by willpower; he can resist that by willpower. There's magic that just generates physical effects; those don't negate him invulnerability.

Think of it this way: The Hulk has no special vulnerability to magic either. Hit him with a turn-into-frog spell, he'll turn into a frog. Trap him in the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak and he can't break out, because they're mystically unbreakable. These will work on Superman the same way. They'll work on Jimmy Olsen that way too.

But hit the Hulk with Thor's hammer, and it'll bounce off, because even though the thing's magic, it's not a magical attack; it's just impact. Hit Superman with it, it'll bounce off. Hit Jimmy with it, it'll bust him to bits, but not because it's magic -- it'll do it because Jimmy's fragile.

Kryptonite weakens Superman just by being nearby and unshielded. So does red-sun radiation. But magic just does what it does -- it doesn't simply hurt him by existing. It has to have a magical effect, and that effect will do to him what it does to others.

kdb

Kurt Busiek

01-07-2007, 03:38 PM

I hope Black adam (magic) kills him after 52.

Wouldn't work. Black Adam is magically-created; he doesn't have magical effect on others.

kdb

Joe Acro

01-07-2007, 03:41 PM

Hit Superman with it, it'll bounce off.
Then why didn't it bounce off in JLA/Avengers?

Rik Levins

01-07-2007, 03:58 PM

Kryptonite weakens Superman just by being nearby and unshielded. So does red-sun radiation.

kdb

M'sieur Busiek, I wish I'd thought to call out your name during an argument I had on one of these boards a few months ago.

I got into it with another poster who believed that Thor's hammer should pulp Superman just as easily as it would Jimmy, because it's a magical attack.
My position was that it's NOT a magical attack. Thor, I said, doesn't cheat; there's no spell on the hammer to increase its destructive force. It's indestructible and Thor's really strong, so the hammer will certainly hurt Supes, but not any worse than if it was made of, say, pre-Crisis Kryptonian iron, and Thor walloped him with it.

I didn't convince the guy. He was a pretty diehard Thor fan.

On another note, while we're on the subject of red-sun radiation. What's the skinny on ITS effect nowadays? Before the Byrne reboot, it could shut off his powers like a light switch, even if there was still a yellow sun overhead. More recently it didn't have any weakening effect, it just didn't give him any power. Now--I think Dupersuper's explanation on the previous page sounds about right, but what's the official canon?

Thanks for your replies.

Damo

01-07-2007, 04:28 PM

I hope Black adam (magic) kills him after 52.

Good luck with that. Let me know how it turns out. >=)

karasu

01-07-2007, 05:00 PM

Whoa. Kurt Busiek.:confused:

MPagar

01-07-2007, 05:06 PM

Then why didn't it bounce off in JLA/Avengers?

I believe it injured Superman because of the force behind it. The average joe somehow managing to throw the hammer shouldn't do squat. Someone like Thor or Wonder Woman throwing it would hurt.

Kurt Busiek

01-07-2007, 05:11 PM

Then why didn't it bounce off in JLA/Avengers?

What do you mean? It did bounce off in JLA/AVENGERS.

Note that "bounce off" doesn't mean "do no damage," it means "bounce off." The comparison was made to its bouncing off the Hulk, who is also hurt when it hits him, but it bounces off without busting him to bits or anything.

kdb

Joe Acro

01-07-2007, 05:13 PM

Maybe I just took the term "bounce off" too literal. It clearly could knock him backwards or even flying, though Pagar is probably right about that being more related to Thor's strength than magic.

Kurt Busiek

01-07-2007, 05:16 PM

M'sieur Busiek, I wish I'd thought to call out your name during an argument I had on one of these boards a few months ago.

Thanks you for not doing so, though -- I've had that argument so many times I'm way, waaaaaay past tired of it.

Your position was correct, though -- the spells on Mjolnir have been enumerated, and not one of them is a "hit harder magically" spell. They're about the transformation, about returning to his hand, about opening portals and such. But not about doing mystical bonus damage; Thor doesn't need a spell like that.

On another note, while we're on the subject of red-sun radiation. What's the skinny on ITS effect nowadays? Before the Byrne reboot, it could shut off his powers like a light switch, even if there was still a yellow sun overhead. More recently it didn't have any weakening effect, it just didn't give him any power. Now--I think Dupersuper's explanation on the previous page sounds about right, but what's the official canon?

As far as I'm concerned, red-sun radiation will force out the yellow-sun stuff, and may be disruptive enough to cause pain/powerloss right away. But if so, that's the post-IC effect. The Dupersuper explanation sounds about right for the latter Steel Age, or whatever the era between MAN OF STEEL #1 and INFINITE CRISIS is called.

kdb

Kurt Busiek

01-07-2007, 05:24 PM

Maybe I just took the term "bounce off" too literal. It clearly could knock him backwards or even flying, though Pagar is probably right about that being more related to Thor's strength than magic.

Perhaps you took it poetically, I'd say -- since it did, literally, bounce off him.

But I thought I'd provided a context for what I meant by "bounce off" -- I'd used the example of it bouncing off the Hulk when it hits him, which we've seen numerous times and shows what I meant. Yeah, it'll smack him a good one, but it doesn't have a magical impact effect. The Hulk, after all, has little to no special protection against magic either, aside from oddments here and there like being able to see astral forms because he's too dumb to realize he shouldn't.

kdb

Sean Whitmore

01-07-2007, 05:35 PM

Yours is the first post that says "Busiek" in it.

The urban legend persists!

I am curious, though, about some less-clearly defined magical attacks. Like being hit with Etrigan's fire breath, or the popular Captain Marvel lightning strike. They've both hurt Superman a little, but not to the extent that they'd hurt an average guy.

(Of course, Cap's lightning may or may not hurt an average guy, but Etrigan's fire certainly has)

SEAN

MPagar

01-07-2007, 05:41 PM

I see it this way-

Etrigan's fire is magical and very hot. The heat is what hurts people, but Superman's durability allows him to handle it, though under certain writers the fire's magical nature can injure Kal, though not quite to the extent that it does a normal person.

If I understand it correctly, it probably shouldn't hurt Clark under Mr. Busiekk's take on his magical vulnerability unless it's simply intense enough to overcome his durability or the fire itself is enchanted to burn anything it hits.

Kurt Busiek

01-07-2007, 05:44 PM

I am curious, though, about some less-clearly defined magical attacks. Like being hit with Etrigan's fire breath, or the popular Captain Marvel lightning strike. They've both hurt Superman a little, but not to the extent that they'd hurt an average guy.

(Of course, Cap's lightning may or may not hurt an average guy, but Etrigan's fire certainly has)

Depends on the magical effect of being hit with those things.

If Etrigan's fire-breath was simply fire, it's not going to do squat to Superman. If it carries a "burn the wicked" effect, it's still not going to do much. If it hurts him, it's because the magic works like that. Could be it causes great pain but no physical damage, and Superman feels but ignores the pain. I dunno.

Cap's lightning, though, confuses me. I thought the use of it in KINGDOM COME was emotionally powerful, but as far as I knew, people who get hit with shazambolts don't get hurt, they get super-powers. There've been a number of Shazam Family stories over the years where people other than Billy & crew get hit by the lightning, and they wound up with the powers, or some variant thereof.

Still, the magic lightning isn't actual lightning -- it's a spell in the form of lightning. It may be that on post-Crisis Earth, being hit by it causes magical pain because the spell found the wrong target, but it doesn't do the kind of damage real lightning would.

kdb

Rockman

01-07-2007, 05:45 PM

Thanks you for not doing so, though -- I've had that argument so many times I'm way, waaaaaay past tired of it.

Your position was correct, though -- the spells on Mjolnir have been enumerated, and not one of them is a "hit harder magically" spell. They're about the transformation, about returning to his hand, about opening portals and such. But not about doing mystical bonus damage; Thor doesn't need a spell like that.

As far as I'm concerned, red-sun radiation will force out the yellow-sun stuff, and may be disruptive enough to cause pain/powerloss right away. But if so, that's the post-IC effect. The Dupersuper explanation sounds about right for the latter Steel Age, or whatever the era between MAN OF STEEL #1 and INFINITE CRISIS is called.

kdb

Mr. Busiek would this be a good example of superman getting weaker been blasted repeatedly with red sun radiation, which weakens him dramatically.

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/1276/ruinfight48nc.th.jpg (http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ruinfight48nc.jpg)

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1010/ruinfight51nc.th.jpg (http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ruinfight51nc.jpg)

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5258/ruinfight67mn.th.jpg (http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ruinfight67mn.jpg)

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/4297/ruinfight73he.th.jpg (http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ruinfight73he.jpg)

Sean Whitmore

01-07-2007, 05:46 PM

If I understand it correctly, it probably shouldn't hurt Clark under Mr. Busiekk's take on his magical vulnerability unless it's simply intense enough to overcome his durability or the fire itself is enchanted to burn anything it hits.

I'd buy the explanation that it's just SO hot that Superman actually feels it, except there's never really any ill effects afterwards. The flame would, say, knock Superman through a wall, but not actually burn him.

Maybe the fire is just normal heat, and it's the force propelling it from Etrigan's mouth that is magical, which is why it'll knock Superman around?

SEAN

Rockman

01-07-2007, 05:48 PM

Or superman on a red planet losing his powers slowly as he constantly use up his reserve.

http://img282.imageshack.us/img282/1213/battleonredsun18hz.th.jpg (http://img282.imageshack.us/my.php?image=battleonredsun18hz.jpg)

http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/2451/battleonredsun28xf.th.jpg (http://img400.imageshack.us/my.php?image=battleonredsun28xf.jpg)

MPagar

01-07-2007, 05:48 PM

Magic-propelled fire? Nah. That shouldn't do anything to Superman. It wouldn't be different from a, say, sorcerer summoning a normal ball of fire and hurled it at Superman. The fire itself is normal despite the origins, so it shouldn't do anything unless it was extremely hot.

Sean Whitmore

01-07-2007, 05:51 PM

Cap's lightning, though, confuses me. I thought the use of it in KINGDOM COME was emotionally powerful, but as far as I knew, people who get hit with shazambolts don't get hurt, they get super-powers. There've been a number of Shazam Family stories over the years where people other than Billy & crew get hit by the lightning, and they wound up with the powers, or some variant thereof.

Fair enough. Like you said, its use in KC was powerful enough to ignore that it shouldn't have worked that way.

Just for the sake of argument, maybe the transformation spell wouldn't affect someone who already had powers. Or, maybe, just not an alien.

SEAN

Kurt Busiek

01-07-2007, 05:59 PM

Mr. Busiek would this be a good example of superman getting weaker been blasted repeatedly with red sun radiation, which weakens him dramatically.

I don't know, offhand. I'll let you draw your own conclusion; I don't want to be put in the position of refereeing interpretation of other people's stories.

kdb

Rockman

01-07-2007, 06:01 PM

I don't know, offhand. I'll let you draw your own conclusion; I don't want to be put in the position of refereeing interpretation of other people's stories.

kdb

Ok, thanks for replying to my question.

MPagar

01-07-2007, 06:02 PM

Fair enough. Like you said, its use in KC was powerful enough to ignore that it shouldn't have worked that way.

Just for the sake of argument, maybe the transformation spell wouldn't affect someone who already had powers. Or, maybe, just not an alien.

SEAN

It seems that the magical lightning's been made out to be a powerful blast that only transforms certain chosen individuals, like Billy. Aside from that, it seems to be a magical, electrical-like force with enough 'oomph' behind it to jumo start a gigantic man's heart or injure the Man of Steel.

Sean Whitmore

01-07-2007, 06:07 PM

It seems that the magical lightning's been made out to be a powerful blast that only transforms certain chosen individuals, like Billy. Aside from that, it seems to be a magical, electrical-like force with enough 'oomph' behind it to jumo start a gigantic man's heart or injure the Man of Steel.

I don't know about the "chosen one" idea, since even Sivana has received powers from the lightning before (and a thank you to Kurt for clueing me in to that story).

Good call on Atom-Smasher. That'd lend credence to the "doesn't give powers to the super-powered" theory.

SEAN

Constantine Drakon

01-07-2007, 06:13 PM

Yours is the first post that says "Busiek" in it.

DanCJ had it right on page 1. Superman is vulnerable to Kryptonite, red-sun radiation and (post-Crisis) being hit wicked hard. Magic, on the other hand, he merely has no special invulnerability to.

Hit him with a spell turning him into a frog, he'll turn into a frog. Hit him with Dr. Fate's helmet, though, and it won't do anything, because hitting him with a magical object isn't any different than hitting him with a non-magical object. You have to use actual magic on him, not just have a magical object.

For instance, Wonder Woman is a magical being, but when she hits Superman, she's not using magic on him simply because she's created by magic. She's using force, and his invulnerability handles it. When she used that sword, it was enchanted to cut things, so it cut him. Had it been enchated to, say, sing out when being stolen, it wouldn't have cut him, because the magic wouldn't be involved.

Magic works on Superman the way it works on other people. There's magic that can be resisted by willpower; he can resist that by willpower. There's magic that just generates physical effects; those don't negate him invulnerability.
kdb

Interesting. So in your opinion Mr. Busiek, how dangerous are Silver Banshee and the Queen of Fables compared to his other foes? For that matter, do you have an opinion on his most dangerous female foe? Thanks for your time.

MPagar

01-07-2007, 06:26 PM

I don't know about the "chosen one" idea, since even Sivana has received powers from the lightning before (and a thank you to Kurt for clueing me in to that story).

Good call on Atom-Smasher. That'd lend credence to the "doesn't give powers to the super-powered" theory.

Maybe the Sivana thing was a special case. I'm not aware of when it happened; could you provide a brief dexcription and when it occurred?

At the moment though, I'd still have to lean towards it being a powerful blast of magical energy.

Sean Whitmore

01-07-2007, 06:32 PM

Maybe the Sivana thing was a special case. I'm not aware of when it happened; could you provide a brief dexcription and when it occurred?

Heh...here's the exact thread I was thinking of, from over a year ago, where the story was mentioned.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=77386&highlight=sivana

The more things change...

SEAN

MPagar

01-07-2007, 06:57 PM

Plot device was gonna be my first choice, but it seemed cheap. But based on everything we've seen it do recently, there's just the bigger odds that it'll hurt someone through massive magical and electrical force.

marshal99

01-07-2007, 07:03 PM

Captain Marvel's magic lightning also struck Wally West once and all it did was shocked him. Guess the magic lightning will be what the writers want it to be.

Kurt Busiek

01-07-2007, 08:24 PM

Interesting. So in your opinion Mr. Busiek, how dangerous are Silver Banshee and the Queen of Fables compared to his other foes?

I don't think that sort of comparison is subject to quantification. They're dangerous, and they're interesting, which is more important. How dangerous they are depends on the story.

For that matter, do you have an opinion on his most dangerous female foe?

Not really, no.

kdb

Karl O'Neill

01-08-2007, 01:39 AM

Good luck with that. Let me know how it turns out. >=)

ok i will, just joking tho,

im fairly new to dc comics, and black adam-as a character has blown me away. he's so interesting, multifaceted and Godlike.
that picyure of him in infinite crisis issue 1 was amazing.

Joe Acro

01-08-2007, 03:35 AM

In regards to Captain Marvel's lightning, Kingdom Come happens in another reality. Perhaps the bolt acts/acted differently in that universe.

dancj

01-08-2007, 05:07 AM

In regards to Captain Marvel's lightning, Kingdom Come happens in another reality. Perhaps the bolt acts/acted differently in that universe.
Since The Kingdom came out, Kingdom Come is set in what (at least at that time) was a possible future, so things like that would have to be consistent with the DCU

666MasterOfPuppets

01-08-2007, 06:24 AM

Karl O'Neill

01-08-2007, 06:26 AM

Sorry to go off the subject for a minute

is superboy prime stronger than superman?
nightshade and black adam couldnt contain him in IC

i could start a thread on this .

Joe Acro

01-08-2007, 06:26 AM

Since The Kingdom came out, Kingdom Come is set in what (at least at that time) was a possible future, so things like that would have to be consistent with the DCUDoes the bolt give already powered people the powers of Captain Marvel?

666MasterOfPuppets

01-08-2007, 06:37 AM

Depends on the magical effect of being hit with those things.

If Etrigan's fire-breath was simply fire, it's not going to do squat to Superman. If it carries a "burn the wicked" effect, it's still not going to do much. If it hurts him, it's because the magic works like that. Could be it causes great pain but no physical damage, and Superman feels but ignores the pain. I dunno.

Cap's lightning, though, confuses me. I thought the use of it in KINGDOM COME was emotionally powerful, but as far as I knew, people who get hit with shazambolts don't get hurt, they get super-powers. There've been a number of Shazam Family stories over the years where people other than Billy & crew get hit by the lightning, and they wound up with the powers, or some variant thereof.

Still, the magic lightning isn't actual lightning -- it's a spell in the form of lightning. It may be that on post-Crisis Earth, being hit by it causes magical pain because the spell found the wrong target, but it doesn't do the kind of damage real lightning would.

kdb

But what would you say is the reason behind adding more weaknesses to Superman? Because his weakness to K was too minimal back then, as MPagar said in the first page? Or simple logic (in the case of magic)?

666MasterOfPuppets

01-08-2007, 07:37 AM

Sorry to go off the subject for a minute

is superboy prime stronger than superman?
nightshade and black adam couldnt contain him in IC

i could start a thread on this .

Yes, he is. SP moves planets around, whereas Big Blue doesn't (that we know, perhaps he's much stronger now than we think).

MPagar

01-08-2007, 09:54 AM

Sorry to go off the subject for a minute

is superboy prime stronger than superman?
nightshade and black adam couldnt contain him in IC

i could start a thread on this .

Superboy Prime's very likely to be stronger, specially since he was essentially the Silver Age version with inconsistent strength that allowed him to perform amazing feats of strength.

One editor mentioned that Superman would be able to move out moon with a great deal of effort, along with at least two comments from the comics of Superman moving the Earth, which was never shown as far as I know, and is probably just a reference to older stories. Still, Superboy managed to do so with seemingly less effort.

Kurt Busiek

01-08-2007, 11:04 AM

But what would you say is the reason behind adding more weaknesses to Superman? Because his weakness to K was too minimal back then, as MPagar said in the first page? Or simple logic (in the case of magic)?

I don't know when the magic thing was added, but my guess would be that it was around before Kryptonite, and K didn't turn up in the comics 'til the late 1940s.

And I think it's logic, mainly. Deciding that science-fiction invulnerability applies to magic as well seems odd.

kdb

PretenderNX01

01-10-2007, 03:16 AM

I'm wondering if Capitan Marvel is discovering (or the writers are creating) more control over the lightning.

Like it also has an enchanted version of the properties of, well, lightning. Maybe if he summons it solely with the purpose of granting him his abilities than thats all it does for him or whoever it hits.

But, if when he summons it he also uses that instant to wield the lightning as a weapon or tool he can- with the drawback that it still transforms him to or from Captain Marvel.

666MasterOfPuppets

01-10-2007, 05:18 AM

That's kinda confusing. After all, he summons lightning with the same magical word (Shazam!). I mean, it would make sense if the lightning affects positively the Marvel/ Black Marvel family while affecting negatively the rest of the people it hits, but that seems kinda far-fetched somehow.

If this is the case, it should be explained "rationally".

Kage Kisaragi

01-10-2007, 11:51 AM

since this is most opinon here is mine.

Yes magic can hurt Superman.
Yes magic can kill Superman.
Yes magic for the most part negates his invulnerability.

However it doesnt negate his ability to regenerate cells/heal.

For example with Shazam, yes his magicial lightning goes thru supermans aura of invulernability, but its still superman whos body can take way more electrical current running through it than a mere human being can.

Yes magicial embued weaponary can pierce his skin and draw blood but (and this varys according to the writter but from a logical stand point shouldnt be a problem.) once the magicial object is removed from him his natural healing ability should kick in back to its normal levels. The reason for this being is because magic in itself is intangeable there shouldnt be anything left behind that would cause physical matter that normal mends itself from mending. That is unless the magicial object in question does that specifically or has a enchantment that prevents such things from happening. So I blame this mostly on writters who want to either make little of supermans abilities or because they dont have a deeper understanding of magic or how to balance it.

Shooting Superman with a magicial arrow in the thigh or in the arm or somewhere that isnt in a critical area like in the head or in the heart doesnt suggest he should instantly drop dead. He is a impressive specimen even despite his abilities. The guy is what 6'3 225 lbs and built like a professional body builder im not surprised he takes so many cuts and bruises from magicial beings without going down or going down as fast, he has more energy and stamina than any mere mortal could hope to imagine.

Karl O'Neill

01-30-2007, 02:34 PM

Wouldn't work. Black Adam is magically-created; he doesn't have magical effect on others.

kdb

Can't believe i am doing this, ok i know this Thread seems long finished and The Topic was Discussed to death.

But i have just Finished reading The preview of Geoff johns Action comics annual thats now online and the i found this. ' The Alien is susceptible as humans to the super science called magic, the chaotic random power within beings like mr mxyzptlk and BLACK ADAM.

http://www.dccomics.com/media/excerpts/6607_x.pdf

So black adam is magically created and can't harm or kill superman, but this excerp from action says otherwise.

Let us know what ya thinks, i don't want to push the subject on to much further,and im not a comic book or superman expert, im just persistant and love the knowledge. but it's seems that BLACK ADAM could kill superman if this Text from Action Comics annual is correct and up to date.

Kurt Busiek

01-30-2007, 07:20 PM

So black adam is magically created and can't harm or kill superman, but this excerp from action says otherwise.

Let us know what ya thinks, i don't want to push the subject on to much further,and im not a comic book or superman expert, im just persistant and love the knowledge. but it's seems that BLACK ADAM could kill superman if this Text from Action Comics annual is correct and up to date.

And yet, Black Adam's fought Superman, and didn't decapitate him with one punch, which indicates Superman's toughitude works just fine.

So go figure.

kdb

Kurt Busiek

01-30-2007, 09:48 PM

So go figure.

Having looked at the preview page now, I note that that story does not have an omniscient narrator. As such, it's one character's deduction and expectation, not gospel truth.

kdb

Jack Zodiac

01-30-2007, 10:07 PM

http://www.dccomics.com/media/excerpts/6607_x.pdf

Whoo! I'm !@#$in' pumped, now. I've been waiting all month for this book, and those little teasers from each of the stories are just making me antsier.

Karl O'Neill

01-31-2007, 01:55 AM

Having looked at the preview page now, I note that that story does not have an omniscient narrator. As such, it's one character's deduction and expectation, not gospel truth.

kdb

Well then it's Settled.

i am very happy with the results, (even if i am wrong!).

Black adam can't kill superman.

i pray for a nice 6 issue mini (elseworlds)with Black adam vs superman.

maybe Geoff and Kurt could co-write it and go wild on it.

Oh Please DC grant my Little wishes!!!!!!!

Thanks for your responces.
General Grievous
Jedi Scum!

Rik Levins

01-31-2007, 06:17 AM

Well then it's Settled.

i am very happy with the results, (even if i am wrong!).

Black adam can't kill superman.

Well...theoretically, he COULD kill Superman, but so could anyone else with strength and invulnerability roughly equal to his own.

But it certainly wouldn't be EASY.

itsyaboy

01-31-2007, 09:01 AM

Magneto_X

01-31-2007, 09:11 AM

I like it when magic is Supes weakness. It means he's not completely invincible if Krytonite isn't around.

He definitely needs more magic using rogues, too. Make Supes bleed a little.

But I've heard DC has been making Supes resistent to magic over the years. Ugh.

Magneto_X

01-31-2007, 09:16 AM

Don't underestimate the protection of Supes own symbolic status...

The only thing in DC more powerful then Supes jobbing aura is Batman's! :D

Magneto_X

01-31-2007, 09:21 AM

A "death spell"? wtf? 0_o

Think of a DC version like Adva Kadava from Harry Potter.

Jack Zodiac

01-31-2007, 09:24 AM

i pray for a nice 6 issue mini (elseworlds)with Black adam vs superman.

Gail Simone had Black Adam and Superman fight during her run on Action a year and a half ago. Adam was being controlled by Dr. Psycho, and he wasn't really fighting at his all, but it was still a decent brawl, even if it was a misunderstanding.

Karl O'Neill

01-31-2007, 10:44 AM

Gail Simone had Black Adam and Superman fight during her run on Action a year and a half ago. Adam was being controlled by Dr. Psycho, and he wasn't really fighting at his all, but it was still a decent brawl, even if it was a misunderstanding.

i have this in singles, it was ok, its not six iissues tho

666MasterOfPuppets

01-31-2007, 11:18 AM

Given Kurt Busiek's explanation, is it safe to say that Supe's magical vulnerability has been misinterpreted in books in the past. I remember an issue where he was actually entranced and bitten by a vampire. Vampire's ability to "hypnotize" some one usually works on people with weaker will's than theirs. And their fangs aren't enchanted to be able to bite through anything.

Also, I'd like to think that not every two-bit magician with a wand up his sleeve could pose a threat to Supes. Shouldn't it also depend on how powerful the source of the magic is?

Exactly. It's not that anyone who can make some tarot or poker cards disappear can pose a threat to Supes, the magic user has to be pretty powerful, and cast spells that can actually hurt him. It's no use if the spell grants the user strength or some other power.