Bill Jemas's Ultimates

[jackolover]

What did you think of Ultimate Spiderman and X-Men when they first came out? I didn't get them when they came out and wouldn't read them because I thought they were childish rehashes of old stories. I didn't even read them, (apologies to Bendis and Millar), so I couldn't even make a proper judgement.

Then my comic book dealer told a friend these things were the hottest things on the market, so I got issue 4 of Ult SM and missed the first 3!! (I could only get the 3 issue compilation put out later). But I did get the first Ult X-men.

I had a preconceived idea that anything new, that looked different to what was was coming out in 2000, was not good quality. It was the biggest shock to learn that Bendis wrote better than Stan Lee. And I absolutely hated Bagley, from the art in the Clone Saga. But boy did Bagley change. He drew bigger panels, used art as drama, and slowed the pace down to a quarter pace.

Overall. the Ultimate universe brings more surprises than even the the current MU. I have no idea what new shock-surprises they will wheel out in the future. But when Bill Jemas bet his shirt on Bendis and those expensive hard covers, I was the most surprised, that people could think from strange directions and make everything so alive.

How did you see those heady days in 2000.

[cosmoboy]

I wasn't too excited about the Ultimate universe either. But I bought all the number ones anyway. Boy was I glad I haven't missed an issue of Spider-Man I did give up on X-men and I was unsure about the FF for awhile but this current ard (God War) is pretty damn good.

[rwsmith]

I loved the Ultimate stuff when it first came out, mainly because the 616 stuff was so bad IMO. Then, the 616 stuff started getting better, and now there's virtually no difference between the two in terms of the types of stories being told. So at this point I'd say the Ultimate Universe is pretty darn redundant.

I'd much rather see Loeb and Joe Mad tackle the Astonishing X-men after Whedon and Cassaday than the Ultimates. And Mike Carey and Pascual Ferry could just as easily be doing the 616 Fantastic Four (even post Civil War with Black Panther and Storm instead of Sue and Reed). And Bendis could grab Amazing Spidey after JMS leaves. So, basically, Marvel could just cancel the Ultimate line and use those creators elsewhere very easily IMO, and that's honestly what I think they ought to do.

Either that, or put some serious top talent on the Ultimate books and make them actually "ultimate" again. I'm thinking artists like J. Scott Campbell doing Ult. Spider-man or Marc Silvestri doing Ult. X-men. Joe Mad is definitely a start in that he's a big name.

But my first choice would be to just cancel the line and fold the creative teams into spots on the real Marvel U books.

[kel25]

When I first heard about them I was expecting it to be a mini series and end. After a while I noticed that it was still going on but still didn’t really care about it. It wasn’t until after I got a gift card at a book store that I got into the series. When I went to the store I already owned everything that looked good and because they have constantly messed up orders I decided to try something new. Since the only titles they had on the shelves that started at 1 for the series was USM, Ultimates, and UXM and since none of them had TPB 2 in I decided to use it all those three.

The only thing I knew about the series is it was supposed to be an updated Marvel Universe for the modern age and to get new readers into comics. My expectations were low but I was blown away by what I read. It wasn’t long before I started collecting Ultimates, UXM, and USM.

I have to admit I haven’t really gotten into UFF. Never cared for any of the members but because it is the only Ultimate title I wasn’t reading I’ve purchased the first two TPBs. Wasn’t really impressed by the series because it was all set up. I’ve been meaning to buy more of this series but my general lack of interest in the cast and first two TPBs has made it a low priority.

[TheLazy]

I hate to be the one to turn this into a Jemas bashing thread but I can NEVER EVER show that man any respect after what he did to the King of Atlantis. Bendis and Millar on the other hand got me interested in these comics to the point where I automatically bought anything with the 'Ultimate' prefix before it. Now that day has since past, but they made the X-universe more fan friendly after the mess that was the 'lets realease a hundred X titles a week' ...90's. And Bendis Had provided Spidey in a way that I found envigourating, because (and I do know Im alone here) I find Stans writting a bit grating to read through, especially dialog, but his ideas where good.

And then theres the excelence that is ultimates. Besides Cap, I have never, nor ever will have any interest in the Avengers. But Millar has turned a group of JLA-lites into the best mainstream book on the market. And to the point of the thread, no I didnt think that the ultimate line would be what it was. I didnt even get USM until I like issue 12, then picked up the trades. You have no idea how shocked I was after reading Ultimates number 1, it was like watching the Matrix for the first time, or getting behind the wheel of a car, or (dare I say) getting laid for the first time, I mean...Wow this s*** was really happening.

But just so we're sure, Jemas is just...no, famliy message bored, kids will be reading.

:)

[jackolover]

I hate to be the one to turn this into a Jemas bashing thread but I can NEVER EVER show that man any respect after what he did to the King of Atlantis.
But just so we're sure, Jemas is just...no, famliy message bored, kids will be reading.

Why the Jemas poison, by the way? What did he do to the King of Atlantis?

[Sophisticated_Gamer]

DOCTOR OC CONTROLLING METAL!!! WEll you got that one right, it sure as hell was a surprise :D

[carabas]

Why the Jemas poison, by the way? What did he do to the King of Atlantis?

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/10988/400/10988_4_001.jpg

[agrich]

Bendis doesn't write better than Stan Lee. And I'm a Bendis fan, but it's a lot easier to put slightly new twists on a character with over 40 years of history behind him than to develop all the original stories and characters and personalities in the first place, as he and Ditko et al did.

If the Ultimate universe had flopped I think Jemas would have been able to keep his shirt. And although Bendis probably wasn't known to many Marvel fans, he had a lot of credibility from his award-winning Powers at Image, among some other indie stuff. As for Bagley, I still don't like his art very much.

[carabas]

Bendis doesn't write better than Stan Lee. And I'm a Bendis fan, but it's a lot easier to put slightly new twists on a character with over 40 years of history behind him than to develop all the original stories and characters and personalities in the first place, as he and Ditko et al did.
Bendis's best writing is on characters he created himself (Alias) and on his creator-owned work.

Stan Lee was a great storyteller, and he was extremey good at creating new characters (although about half of the credit for that needs to go his collaborating artisys IMO).
A skillful writer he is not and never was. Nobody bought Amazing Spider-Man or Fantastic Four for the incredible dialogue and Stan generally left the really tricky bits about writing (such as proper pacing) to his artists. When it comes down to penmanship, Stan Lee is outclassed by most people writing in comics today.

[agrich]

Stan Lee was a great storyteller, and he was extremey good at creating new characters (although about half of the credit for that needs to go his collaborating artisys IMO).
A skillful writer he is not and never was. Nobody bought Amazing Spider-Man or Fantastic Four for the incredible dialogue and Stan generally left the really tricky bits about writing (such as proper pacing) to his artists. When it comes down to penmanship, Stan Lee is outclassed by most people writing in comics today.

You're splitting a hair that I don't think is important. A writer is a storyteller. Saying Lee was a great storyteller but not a skillful writer -- which is more important? To me it's the storytelling. I'll grant you that Bendis has a superior ear for DIALOGUE -- as I said, I'm a Bendis fan and read Alias, Powers, etc. -- but that doesn't mean Lee's writing was poor. It doesn't mean he wasn't extremely skilled in taking something that was largely aimed at kids and viewed as insignificant and actually making it entertaining, even today, for older readers, if they give it a chance. I'd put most of his run on Spider-man -- the world of characters, heroes, villains, regular people - up with anything Bendis has ever done.

Saying there are better writers in comics today than Lee is like saying there are better pro athletes today than in the 50s. Sure, the passing of time makes a lot of what Lee wrote outdated and even hokey, but there's a huge difference between the people who are following in the footsteps of the earlier creators and the guys who laid the groundwork. He and Kirby and Everett and Ditko built the Marvel Universe. It was his voice, no matter how "outclassed" you may think it is today. And I think doing it was a lot harder back when there was nothing else like it than today, when even the best of what Bendis is doing has been done.

[TheLazy]

Why the Jemas poison, by the way? What did he do to the King of Atlantis?

He turned his book into an episode of The OC. Let me rephrase that so you can get the scope of this action. He made one of Earths most powerful heroes/villains into a bloody teen heart throb. What next, give the hulk an emo fringe and an ipod?:rolleyes:


http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/10988/400/10988_4_001.jpg

Argghhhhhhhh! *covers eyes*


You're splitting a hair that I don't think is important. A writer is a storyteller. Saying Lee was a great storyteller but not a skillful writer -- which is more important? To me it's the storytelling. I'll grant you that Bendis has a superior ear for DIALOGUE -- as I said, I'm a Bendis fan and read Alias, Powers, etc. -- but that doesn't mean Lee's writing was poor. It doesn't mean he wasn't extremely skilled in taking something that was largely aimed at kids and viewed as insignificant and actually making it entertaining, even today, for older readers, if they give it a chance. I'd put most of his run on Spider-man -- the world of characters, heroes, villains, regular people - up with anything Bendis has ever done.

Saying there are better writers in comics today than Lee is like saying there are better pro athletes today than in the 50s. Sure, the passing of time makes a lot of what Lee wrote outdated and even hokey, but there's a huge difference between the people who are following in the footsteps of the earlier creators and the guys who laid the groundwork. He and Kirby and Everett and Ditko built the Marvel Universe. It was his voice, no matter how "outclassed" you may think it is today. And I think doing it was a lot harder back when there was nothing else like it than today, when even the best of what Bendis is doing has been done.

Whilst I can't speak for carabas, I agree with most of what your saying. All that Im trying to say is his writing is a bit of a chore to read. I still read it because I like his ideas, its just the way he presents them if you know what I mean. This is why I like Kirby, Ditko, Conway, Romita, ect, because I suspect that turning his scripts into art wasnt as easy as people may think.

I'm not trying to make this a Modern Vs. Classic debate, because there's really no winner there, it's just a matter of personal taste. Stan is a good writer, the best, no, but he's good. Its just that he has a very stylized way to writing things. Much like Alan Moore, or even prose writers like Philip Roth, its an aquired taste.

:)

[Jack]

Ultimate Spider-Man was what brought me back into comics after years of being away.

[carabas]

All that Im trying to say is his writing is a bit of a chore to read. I still read it because I like his ideas, its just the way he presents them if you know what I mean.

This is exactly what i was saying.


This is why I like Kirby, Ditko, Conway, Romita, ect, because I suspect that turning his scripts into art wasnt as easy as people may think.
Stan Lee generally didn't do scripts.
He did plot outlines, had his artists turn the outline into a well-paced comic, and once the art was done, added - probably too much- dialogue.

Then again, he was writing for kids, and not for 20-50 year olds. Considering the dramatic shift in audience, it's probably not fair compare Stan Lee to his succesors.

[XPac]

Ultimate Spider-Man was pure awesomeness, and I knew it would be from the start. This was the sort of book I knew Bendis could right really well. Action packed team books may or may not have been his strong point depending on who you ask, but a more street level character piece is where most I think would agree Bendis is a master.

I wasn't sure how I would feel about Ultimates, but that really worked out well. I know Millar can right some good stuff, but sometimes it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. But the Avengers really gave Millar a lot of good material to work with, and that series turned out great.

Ultimate X-Men for me was hit and miss. I was never a regular reader of it, and I might never be.

Same with Ultimate Fantastic Four. Sometimes it works for me, and sometimes it doesn't. Maybe in part it's because I'm a hardcore Avenger and Spidey fan that I was just more drawn to those books, but bias or not I do feel those 2 books consistently put out a stronger product.

[jackolover]

Bendis doesn't write better than Stan Lee. And I'm a Bendis fan, but it's a lot easier to put slightly new twists on a character with over 40 years of history behind him than to develop all the original stories and characters and personalities in the first place, as he and Ditko et al did.

If the Ultimate universe had flopped I think Jemas would have been able to keep his shirt. And although Bendis probably wasn't known to many Marvel fans, he had a lot of credibility from his award-winning Powers at Image, among some other indie stuff. As for Bagley, I still don't like his art very much.

1. Stan Lee never had the benefit of telling his early stories over 5 or 6 issues. He had to do it in 10 pages, and later in 18 pages, so from that point of view, Stan was dictated by the times so his flair for the concise was forced on him. Bendis, by 2000, was in the enviable position to be able to write long episodes to bring his message across. I suppose I was not comparing apples with apples.

2. If the Ultimates flopped, I am guessing it would have made Jemas' name mud, pretty much, and Jemas would have had to make a lot of recovery. But if after 2 years, Jemas could not get a successful 'Ultimates type' project to replace Ultimates, he would have been out of there. I think Jemas made his reputation on the Ultimates, followed by Quaseda, then the rest of the the projects Marvel went with. But Jemas needed Ultimates to succeed, or there would have been no Bill Jemas.

[jackolover]

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/10988/400/10988_4_001.jpg

I never got this. Was this bad?

[TheLazy]

I never got this. Was this bad?

Hahahahaha, the word was invented to describe this.

:)

[jackolover]

Hahahahaha, the word was invented to describe this.

:)

Okay, Bill Jemas was not known for his writing, but his directorship was pure genius when it came to whom he brought to the table, and the ideas for projects.

[TheLazy]

still though, he made some major F-ups. I don't know if it was him or Quesada, but towards the end of his time there were a lot of moves Marvel made that p-ed me off.

And running with belief that Marvel has really improved over the past 2-3 years, and that Quesada is still the Chief, then Ill assume that Jemas was the one who took these directions. Ultimates rules though, I'll give him that, but thats like Phonebooth being good, it doesn't wipe Joel Schumakers slate clean, justs gives him a tick to counter-act all those crosses.

Anyway, We're breaking away from the point of the thread.

:)

[jackolover]

still though, he made some major F-ups. I don't know if it was him or Quesada, but towards the end of his time there were a lot of moves Marvel made that p-ed me off.

What were those F-ups? I liked the Trouble series, I didn't like the Marvell series, but so what.


And running with belief that Marvel has really improved over the past 2-3 years, and that Quesada is still the Chief, then Ill assume that Jemas was the one who took these directions. Ultimates rules though, I'll give him that, but thats like Phonebooth being good, it doesn't wipe Joel Schumakers slate clean, justs gives him a tick to counter-act all those crosses.

Anyway, We're breaking away from the point of the thread.

:)

Jemas had the ship running smoothly. Maybe Bill Jemas didn't like that his golden touch wasn't working towards the end, but he set up the franchise with rich ideas and open to fresh young blood. With his biggest legacy being the Ultimate line

[carabas]

Stan Lee never had the benefit of telling his early stories over 5 or 6 issues. He had to do it in 10 pages, and later in 18 pages, so from that point of view, Stan was dictated by the times so his flair for the concise was forced on him. Bendis, by 2000, was in the enviable position to be able to write long episodes to bring his message across. I suppose I was not comparing apples with apples.

Warren Ellis and Matt Fraction do quite exellent 16-page stand-alone stories in Fell and Casanova respectively. Being constrained in page count is no excuse.
And I'm sure that if Stan Lee would have wanted to write some 120+page opuses, nobody at Marvel would have stopped him. In fact, with the ongoing soap opera that is the life of Parker, I don't know if you can even say that Stan did single issue stories on Spider-Man.

[TheLazy]

What were those F-ups? I liked the Trouble series, I didn't like the Marvell series, but so what.



Jemas had the ship running smoothly. Maybe Bill Jemas didn't like that his golden touch wasn't working towards the end, but he set up the franchise with rich ideas and open to fresh young blood. With his biggest legacy being the Ultimate line

Hahahaha, you actually liked trouble?

Im sorry, but Re and Spect have just left the conversation.:p Joking aside, I thought Trouble was awful, as was Marvell, and Epic, and Namor, and his descision to cancel Black panther and captain marvel and the countless other good books they were putting out, simply because of low sales. Good rule of thumb for marketing, if you don't market something, it doesn't sell. So when it doesn't sell don't pull it, give it some publicity. Have a little crossover in a main book, have a guest artist, put some bloody ads out there, don't cancel everything.

Look at G'n'R. They released Appetite for Destruction and it sold next to nothing for sixmonths, then they repackaged the infamous rape cover and got a bit of publicity and attention from their label and BOOM, biggest band in the world at the time. Imagine if the label had just dropped them? Look at The Shawshank Redemption. It came out at the cinemas, made next to nothing, got put on the back seat and realeased small scale, and word of mouth built it up until the studio felt that it had a big enough fan base for a re-realease. Imagine if they had just though, 'nah, it did bad the first time.' Arguably the best movie ever, could have been hidden from most of us.

:)

[jackolover]

Warren Ellis and Matt Fraction do quite exellent 16-page stand-alone stories in Fell and Casanova respectively. Being constrained in page count is no excuse.
And I'm sure that if Stan Lee would have wanted to write some 120+page opuses, nobody at Marvel would have stopped him. In fact, with the ongoing soap opera that is the life of Parker, I don't know if you can even say that Stan did single issue stories on Spider-Man.

Well, I'm talking the early days like the first 20 issues of ASM, Stan Lee was not allowed to do multiple issues. After that, sure he could. But Bendis could from day 1. All origin issues that Stan wrote were short stories, and that he had to fight Marty for every inch, so I don't see how you can compare the modern scribes to poor Stan. Stan basically had to write in the trenches.

Warren Ellis and Matt Fraction may do good 16 page stories, but thats their choice. Martin Goodman was a man who dictated the length of stories in those 60's years. It was a different world.

So as for origin issues, Stan had it tougher than the moderns.

[jackolover]

Hahahaha, you actually liked trouble?

Im sorry, but Re and Spect have just left the conversation.:p Joking aside, I thought Trouble was awful, as was Marvell, and Epic, and Namor, and his descision to cancel Black panther and captain marvel and the countless other good books they were putting out, simply because of low sales. Good rule of thumb for marketing, if you don't market something, it doesn't sell. So when it doesn't sell don't pull it, give it some publicity. Have a little crossover in a main book, have a guest artist, put some bloody ads out there, don't cancel everything.

Look at G'n'R. They released Appetite for Destruction and it sold next to nothing for sixmonths, then they repackaged the infamous rape cover and got a bit of publicity and attention from their label and BOOM, biggest band in the world at the time. Imagine if the label had just dropped them? Look at The Shawshank Redemption. It came out at the cinemas, made next to nothing, got put on the back seat and realeased small scale, and word of mouth built it up until the studio felt that it had a big enough fan base for a re-realease. Imagine if they had just though, 'nah, it did bad the first time.' Arguably the best movie ever, could have been hidden from most of us.

:)

So you're saying Bill Jemas messed up because he scapped a few books you liked? I'm sure that may have hurt, but surely, the legacy that Bill Jemas left was greater than the few disappointments we all felt about a few books?

And I did enjoy Trouble. It was a refreshing adult take of what could have happened to the Parker clan in the beggining. It jumped out of the page, for me.

[TheLazy]

So you're saying Bill Jemas messed up because he scapped a few books you liked? I'm sure that may have hurt, but surely, the legacy that Bill Jemas left was greater than the few disappointments we all felt about a few books?

And I did enjoy Trouble. It was a refreshing adult take of what could have happened to the Parker clan in the beggining. It jumped out of the page, for me.

nah, I think he messed up because he messed up. The direction marvel was taking had a massive out cry from the fans, and just didnt seem like a smart marketing move. He seemed like a buisness man, who should be incharge of a buisness department, not a CEO who has to take in 10 different departments to make one finished product.

Out of all the books he cancleled, the only one I read religiously was Captain Marvel, but I read reviews and look on the internet and in magazines. Some of those books were very well recieve, both critically and by their small fan base. He can cancel a book I like if its going to mean that the other 10 books I like still get published by a company trying to turn a profit. I have no problem with that, but his methods wernt that of a guy with a great legend.
:)

[jackolover]

He can cancel a book I like if its going to mean that the other 10 books I like still get published by a company trying to turn a profit. I have no problem with that, but his methods wernt that of a guy with a great legend.
:)

Yeah, we all have different opinions on publishers styles. I didn't think much of the publisher before Bill Jemas, I liked Bill Jemas, I don't like Dan Buckleys style.

[wet wookie]

This is exactly what i was saying.


Stan Lee generally didn't do scripts.
He did plot outlines, had his artists turn the outline into a well-paced comic, and once the art was done, added - probably too much- dialogue.

Then again, he was writing for kids, and not for 20-50 year olds. Considering the dramatic shift in audience, it's probably not fair compare Stan Lee to his succesors.

His Silver Surfer with Moebius back in the late 80's/early 90's was really well written. A little too poetic, but it fit the character and the story.

[carabas]

Well, that was a 70 page graphic novel rather than a 10-20 page single issue.
And produced 2 decades after the period of Lee's work we were discussing.