The Hollywood Writer ? Good vs Bad

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Its pretty clear that Comics has pretty much started attracting more and more attention each year. With guys like Joss Whedon , J. Micheal Straczynski , Kevin Smith and David Goyer. Each person lured has attribnuted some good and some bad to comics.

Kevin Smith is really the 1st big wheel to ever start the chain rolling of Hollywood guys coming in and taking over a major character. So lets look at his impact and how he started things.

Kevin Smith: For those under that rock the last decade , Smith is the director of Clerks and the View Askiew Universe flicks. He's directed Jersey Girl and has appeared on VH1 and other shows as Silent Bob.

Kevin Smith has always had a love of comics and has used them in his movies like Mallrats . So in 1998 , when Bob Harras handed Joe Quesada and his partner the keys to 4 titles to relaunch under his helm. The Marvel Knights situation was that Daredevil was a fucked up title at this point and Quesada handed the writing chores to Kevin Smith .

Smith wrote an 8 issue arc called " Guardian Devil " and the arc attracted him huge attention. Considered as a comics draw who could lure newer fans , Smith revamped Daredevil and gave him the old fashioned Frank Miller treatment that fans had long missed.

DC was attracted to Smith's power and wanted him on Green Arrow after the 8 issue arc in 1998. But Kevin Smith wanted to write the Oliver Queen , Green Arrow and after 2+ years of interruptions , Smith wrote the return of Oliver Queen to huge fandom. The arc " Quiver " ran 12 issues and for awhile Smith teased to stay longer. But after 3 more very late and erratic issues DC decided to get someone else so he could catch up.

Now heres where it gets funny. Smith's issues were starting to get late and Marvel wanted him back to do more Daredevil and other projects. While he produced 2 mini-series , Joe Quesada learned DC was teasing with the idea to give Kevin Smith a new " Brave & the Bold " series.

Now had Quesada simply waited and let the rumor go , he could have saved himself the agravation of what he did next. Trying to one-up DC , he signed Smith to an Exclusive contract locking him down to Marvel awhile and giving him supposedly Amazing Spiderman once JMS stepped away. ( Had JQ realized DC wanted Smith to at least get a story-arc in the can 1st )

But it would never happen. Kevin Smith would never complete : Daredevil: The Target and I believe he still hasn't finished Spiderman/Blackcat. He would never write an issue of Amazing Spiderman and fans weren't happy. Perhaps they wouldn't have reacted so angry had Smith treated the job as something more serious than how he portrayed it all. In interviews he'd make lame jokes about how fans were wanting the comics and didn't understand his schedule. Because cleary , VH1 I Love the 90's Strikes Back was pretty damn important. Or Fletch Returns or the Green Hornet flick that Kevin Smith was supposed to direct.

Of course this behavior wouldn't have been accepted if it was a Chris Claremont or Ron Marz. Or anyone who came from the comics industry for that matter. Instead Joe Quesada was pretty relunctant to even take Smith to task or assign a new writer to finish each mini-series for fans , showing his favoritism sadly. I think at this point many can't help but laugh at the debacle of signing a guy to an exclusive contract ( handing him guarenteed money) and then said guy never does hardly any work.

J. Micheal Straczynski: JMS for short. The main creative force behind Babylon 5 , JMS wrote some of the comics under the DC imprint. In 1999 , JMS's fame really spread when he started the Image series " Rising Stars ". This attracted the attention of Joe Quesada finally.


In 2001 , Marvel needed a jolt for Amazing Spiderman. So they handed him the title and he pretty much gave it a sales jolt. By revamping the series and pushing a new mystical element to the origin of the character , JMS had pretty much did what Harras and others couldn't do post-Clone Crisis. He saved the character by telling a good story.

His work on Amazing Spiderman allowed him to get more work at Marvel on titles like Supreme Power in the Marvel Max-Line. And Fantastic Four. Of course he has battled late problems on Rising Stars which took years to get to issue #21. Then the creator battled Top Cow over the potential movie rights to RS and in March 2005 , the final 3 issues arrived ending the originally planned 24 issue series. He's also suffered a small late issue on Amazing Spiderman but compared to Kevin Smith , JMS is a steam engine running full speed.

David S. Goyer: Goyer himself has wrote numerous screenplays and wrote all 3 Blade movies. Also has wrote the Batman Begins movie too. In 1999 he and Geoff Johns would team to write JSA for close to 50 issues. Goyer really hasn't taken on many comic projects beyond this but stays in his chosen profession writing and directing movies.

You can't knock Goyer because he really never caused a delay and had a co-writer like Geoff Johns to handle the issues if he got too busy. Which was pretty smart thinking by DC Comics.

David Lindelof : David Lindelof is one of men behind the hit TV series " Lost " on TV. He's also gonna Executive Produce , Star Trek XI. Of course Marvel saw his fame and wanted him for a series. In this case its Ultimate Wolverine vs Hulk. Seems like Joe Quesada would have learned his lesson by now with the Kevin Smith debacle.

Instead those who keep repeating past blunders , will always repeat them in good fashion. This time Lindelof would write 2 issues of this big fight mini-series and the book hasn't came out for months ( IF at all in 2006). But at least Lindelof wasn't signed to a Marvel Exclusive contract as was Smith.

Reggie Hudlin: Hudlin is the man who controls BET and has directed the House Party movies. In 2005 Marvel was wanting someone to revamp Black Panther and choose Hudlin. The situation irked many long time Christopher Preist fans of that series. Hudlin however has been able to turn in his work on a monthly basis.

Joss Whedon : If Hudlin puts out work on a timely fashion , Whedon is the guy who can barely get 6 issues done a year. Whedon is the man who has done " Buffy " and " Firefly " so his creditionals to comic fans is pretty high.

Whedon however has wrote Astonishing X-Men for 3 years and has only 19 issues out at this point. But fans can rest easy as Whedon at least produces his comics work and doesn't allow movies and TV to pull him away.

So Hollywood people....is it good or bad for comics ? Because for every Kevin Smith we see a JMS who will produce work. For every Lindelof , theres a Joss Whedon who will produce his work.

[Shellhead]

It seems like Quesada is more obsessed with Hollywood writers than Didio these days. The results are definitely mixed. It seems like the most talented comic writers of the bunch are the ones that struggle more with the deadlines, while the less talented ones seem more likely to meet those deadlines.

Overall, I'm not that impressed with the comics these guys have written. Strackzynski and Hudlin in particular seem too willing to do their own thing without working with editors or working with what previous writers had done.

Meltzar does that, too, but he's not technically one of the Hollywood crowd, but a related group of fiction writers who have dabbled in comics, with comparable results. Actually, this may be worth a separate discussion... the literary guys have no problems meeting the writing deadlines, but seem to struggle more with pacing, narration and dialogue.

Goyer might be good, but it's not easy to separate his work from Johns on JSA. Only Whedon has truly amazed me, with his work on Astonishing X-Men. I'm not even sure that he is the reason for all the late issues, given that his artist Cassaday also works on the absurdly late Planetary series. 26 issues in, what, 8 years? Either way, it's worth the wait. I literally have not enjoyed the X-Men this much in over 20 years, not even the Morrison run.

[Gingold]

Good writers are good writers, bad writers are bad writers. What other mediums they've worked in isn't relevant.

[Expletive Deleted]

What Gingold said.

[Cayman]

I like the good ones, and dislike the bad.

[Reptisaurus!]

Sort of tangentally related:

Kevin Smith's absolute best comic work was on Clerks and the various movie tie-ins.

Joss Whedon's absolute best work in comics was in Tales of the Vampires and Tales of the Slayers.

[carabas]

Quiver " ran 12 issues and for awhile Smith teased to stay longer. But after 3 more very late and erratic issues DC decided to get someone else so he could catch up.

Are you sure about that? IIRC, all of Smith's Green Arrow was on time, give or take a week here and there.


But it would never happen. Kevin Smith would never complete : Daredevil: The Target and I believe he still hasn't finished Spiderman/Blackcat.
He did complete Spider-MAn Black Cat. There's a trade.

I'm willing to cut Smith some slack for this particular mini. The later issues don't seem to part of the same story as the earlier ones.
I imagine something like this took place:
Kevin Smith: "Waddaya mean, I need to redo those scripts?"
Joe Q: "the boss thinks they're too controversial for New New Marvel. And Avi says the movie people are interested in Black Cat."
KS: "Screw this. You and Jemas approved my story outline
JQ "Well, I'm afraid Bill isn't here anymore, and the new boss doesn't like it."
KS:"...Well, I'm dircting a movie right now. When I done I need to write a screenplay or two, then direct another movie. I'll try to fit them in some time, but don't expect them anytime soon."

[suedenim]

Good writers are good writers, bad writers are bad writers. What other mediums they've worked in isn't relevant.

Well, yes, but there's also the matter of experience and knowledge of a particular medium. There's a learning curve for any new skill, and the problem with a lot of the comics "tourists" is that it's an "earn while you learn" scenario for them, while we're paying good money for their Intro to Comics 101 term papers.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Are you sure about that? IIRC, all of Smith's Green Arrow was on time, give or take a week here and there.

The last issues with the new villain he created were pretty erratic coming out. This is why DC if they did approve Brave & the Bold wanted a story-arc in the can ready.

[Ryan Day]

Some are good and some are bad. I think there's something to be said for having proven yourself in a much more fiercely competitive industry, but obviously being a good TV writer doesn't mean you're cut out for being a comic book writer. But on the whole, I'd rather have a good writer who maybe has some struggles with the tricks of the medium than someone who was totally dedicated to comics but still didn't write very well. There are plenty of full-time comic book writers who don't make the most of the medium - Bendis, for example, can get too talky and static at times, and even Stan Lee and Chris Claremont often refused to accept that their artists could tell the story themselves without scads of expository dialogue.

Obviously there have been scheduling problems, but that's usually the sort of thing publishers should be accounting for. I don't know if they can't or won't schedule things properly, but they should know by now that writers with bigger, more profitable Hollywood commitments probably won't make comics their #1 project. Maybe Damon Lindelof blew off Ultimate Hulk v. Wolverine, but at the same time, why would you solicit a mini with only one script done by a guy who's obviously very busy? There's either a lack of communication or publishing schedules are determined by drunken chimpanzees.

[Loren]

One thing about Hudlin that sets him apart from the other Hollywood guys is that unlike everyone else, he doesn't actually have much of a history as a writer. He's directed plenty of things, but his writing resume prior to "Black Panther" consisted of just two movie screenplays: House Party in 1990 and Bebe's Kids in 1992.

Smith, JMS, Goyer, Lindelof, Whedon, Allan Heinberg, Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa...all guys with strong and recent writing resumes. But Hudlin hadn't written anything for twelve years before being given a monthly writing gig that was hugely promoted. And I can't help but think that his lack of writing experience has contributed to the weaknesses of his work.

[Johnny Triangles]

jeph loeb is a hollywood writer too.

[Joshua Pantalleresco]

Pros:

Name Recognition - Reggie Hudlin, Kevin Smith, Jeph Loeb, Danny Bilson, Brad Meltzer, JMS instantly add more mainstream appeal to comics. That cannot be stated enough.

Crossover Appeal - Hey, I'm all for comic writers getting a shot at breaking into other barriers and that's a huge plus here. The door swings both ways here as many comic writers have movie deals. And that's a good thing.

Cons

Substance - While I can't say I've read a script that has sucked from anyone that's come from Hollywood land or elsewhere, I do think that quality and substance of comics have gone down quite a bit. To be fair, this isn't exactly their fault...the comic industry is more geared to trades now then ever. And I can't say that all long stories are bad. Identity Crisis definitely comes to mind.

That said, outside of JMS I can't think of one hollywood writer that has done a simple single issue story. It's become a lost art.

Also I tend to think the feel of both companies, DC and Marvel has become entirely too similar. Blue Beetle aside, in DC's main line you can interchange a lot of the books and not notice the difference. Some are better then others but the overall feel is not unique anymore. Again, I'm not blaming anyone from Hollywood or from anywhere else for that matter that writes it. There are a lot of factors going into making comics. But this is a trend I've noticed with the bigger companies. An original voice in the mainstream superhero line is virtually non existent. That's my opinion though.

Bumper Room - With hollywood writers coming in someone has to take the fall...I haven't seen guys like John Ostrander or Beau Smith in the main two companies in a LONG time. I miss them.

That all said, I do think overall it's a good thing for the industry as it will catch more people's eyes.

[Joe Rice]

Some do OK, some do terribly. It's more what Gingold said. But I'll note that the best writers in Hollywood aren't usually the ones asking to do comics.

[Shellhead]

jeph loeb is a hollywood writer too.

Good point. I can't stand Loeb's work, but I have to admit that I have limited my exposure to him after the first few bad experiences.

Back to the overall topic, it seems like a poor use of these Hollywood guys to just have them write existing characters. If they are so creative, they should be able to come up with unique concepts and add those into the DCU or MU. Maybe the Hollywood guys don't want to do that, they want to save the originality for Hollywood and work with their favorites from DC or Marvel. But it often seems to be problematic, resulting in poor continuity (Hudlin), poor characterization (Loeb) or poorly executed plots or missed deadlines that interfere with related comics (Whedon?).

Independent comics seem much less likely to use Hollywood writers. Is it because they can't afford them? Or because the Hollywood guys are just interested in DC/Marvel? Or both?

[Homosensual]

Why shouldn't writers cross over genres? I know I have a few ideas I'd like to develop for film and tv first, and if a comic comes out of it, all to the good. Comics will always be my first passion, but I'm even plotting a novel right now, which is something I hadn't foreseen.

[Tommy]

GBack to the overall topic, it seems like a poor use of these Hollywood guys to just have them write existing characters. If they are so creative, they should be able to come up with unique concepts and add those into the DCU or MU.

I think the allure of writing comics for someone like Joss Whedon or Kevin Smith is to write the more or less iconic characters. The ones that they read about in their youth.

However JMS had Rising Stars and several Babylon 5 comics. And is taking the Squadron Supreme in a completely unique direction.

[Johnny Triangles]

Another thing to consider is not just how many writers are good and how many are bad but also HOW good are the good writers and how bad are the bad ones? For example maybe you can come up with 3 good writers and 3 bad writers, so you say that the scales are balanced. But maybe the good ones are exceptionally brilliant and the bad ones are just slightly bad, in which case the scale tips toward good.

In my experience, the Hollywood writers when good are slightly above average yet when bad are horribly bad, therefore I'll say the overall product skews more toward bad. I don't think it's necessarily any problem with Hollywood writers writing comics, I think it's that the writers comic companies use weren't writing good television or film to begin with and the quality of their comic work matches the quality of their Hollywood stuff.

[Kevinroc]

So, will BKV still be a "comic" writer or will he be known as a "Hollywood" writer?

[Bright-Raven]

Homosensual wrote:


Why shouldn't writers cross over genres?

Actually, the word you were looking for is mediums, not genres. Comics, TV, prose fiction are all different mediums. Superheroes, SF, Fantasy, Horror - those are different genres.

**********

RE: JMS --

He's been in comics sporadically for nearly twenty years, in addition to his various television, radio and film writing. He wrote at DC in the 1980s for TEEN TITANS SPOTLIGHT & STAR TREK, and he did THE TWLIGHT ZONE comic series for Now Comics.

It's just that before B5, you geeks never paid any attention to him.

[Bright-Raven]

On to the original question...

As it has been said by others, it depends on the individual writer. Historically there are not a small number of comics writers who crossed into writing for film and television (Marv Wolfman, Gerry Conway, Dwayne McDuffie, Peter David immediately come to mind).

However, they didn't have the media hype that today's writers get. The question isn't whether or not the writers themselves are good or bad, but whether the hype is good or bad for the industry.

In my opinion, it's bad. Partly because so few of the writers actually have the time to commit and really measure up to the hype they're given. Partly because the more work you're constantly putting out there, the more exposure, the greater the risk of hitting that plateau of saturation. There's only so much of any one thing a person can stomach before they rebel against it all entirely, regardless of the quality of the product.

[stealthwise]

Actually, the word you were looking for is mediums, not genres. Comics, TV, prose fiction are all different mediums. Superheroes, SF, Fantasy, Horror - those are different genres.


Strangely enough, a number of academics at the university I work for refer to comics, tv, prose, poetry, etc, as genres as well. Not sure why.

[lonesomefool]

I dont like the way some of the writers get jobs based soley on the fact they helped write a TV show or movie, but I think more of them have been pretty good rather than pretty bad. Plus they help bring some new blood into the industry, which is always a good thing. The only problem is that some of them have trouble with deadlines, but until delays lead to massive sales drops I dont see Marvel or DC caring about that too much.

[Shellhead]

We forgot to mention Alan Heinberg, writer of Young Avengers. I was enjoying his writing on The O.C. before he went to work for Marvel.

[Bright-Raven]

Stealthwise:


Strangely enough, a number of academics at the university I work for refer to comics, tv, prose, poetry, etc, as genres as well. Not sure why.

Probably because they're going with the third level definition of the term and the word's origin from "genus", not realizing that the context is completely wrong. Or they are considering them "genres" of entertainment, which technically fits the proper definition, but is still rather poor use of the word.

It's not uncommon in today's academia to have lesser levels of comprehension of the history of language. It's not like linguistics is required subject matter at college to acquire an english degree, and we certainly aren't teaching such subjects in our schools in America.