Spider-Man from the beginning. [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

Gilda Dent

01-01-2007, 02:29 PM

Amazing Fantasy #15

The cover is very nice. We have a nice dynamic shot of Spider-Man, and with a few speech bubbles and a couple of captions, we have a good idea of some of the basics. The character's name is Spider-Man, he has an alter ego, a teenager named Peter Parker who is mocked by his peers, and he's much more confident and powerful as Spider-Man. It's hard to tell from the cover if he's a good guy or a bad guy. Amazing Fantasy is usually about monsters, so it is a bit ambiguous. I am getting a bit of a bullied loner goes nuts type of vibe from the cover.

The splash panel and first page effectively establish Peter Parker's status--adored at home by his elderly aunt and uncle, appreciated by his teachers, and teased and dismissed by classmates. Even the scientists at the demonstration seem to be making fun of him.

This is a pretty quick origin. A radioactive spider bites him, some kids try to run him down in a car, and suddenly hes wall crawling and discovering his super strength. Two more pages and he's defeated a sideshow strongman, invented mechanical web shooters, made a costume, and gotten a job on a tv show. The powers at this point have even made things better. He is showing a bit of the arrogance foreshadowed on the cover by letting the thief get away.

There was a quick bit of time compression there, several weeks of successes for Spider-Man leading up to his uncle being murdered by a random thief. It seems obvious that there's a connection, but we don't know for sure until he catches him and unmasks him that we learn it was the thief he failed to stop.

The battle was nicely done for only being a few panels. It showcases his basic powers--sticking to walls, speed, agility, strength, using webs. The final panel sums up the basic setup well. We can assume that guilt over not doing what he could will be a driving force in times to come.

The art is a bit spare at times, but still effective, showing a good sense of movement in the action scenes. It's done well enough that you don't tend to notice the empty brightly colored backgrounds.

All in all, a very effective origin issue.

Nate C.

01-01-2007, 04:03 PM

Gilda,

this is a great idea. One I've wanted to do more than once. Unfortunately, I will not be able to post, because I have another tough four months ahead of me in Nursing School. I do hope you get more on board!

(and I only lack 2 issues from having a complete run.:( I could be reading the originals with you.)

The Confessor

01-01-2007, 04:40 PM

Nice review Gilda and nice Avatar you've got there too! :)

I like this first appearance of Spider-Man a lot...I’m a total sucker for superhero origin stories. I think your summary of this issue is basically spot-on! However, there is one little nit-picky point I wanted to raise (didn’t you just know it?) ;) It concerns the following sentence...

A radioactive spider bites him, some kids try to run him down in a car, and suddenly hes wall crawling and discovering his super strength.

You know, in all the times I've read this issue, it's never occurred to me that the occupants of the car were actually trying to run Peter Parker down. I just thought he was day dreaming and not looking where he was going and happened to wander into the path of an on-comming car...hence the 'honk-honk' the driver gave him on the horn. I'd also never thought of the people in the car as being kids.

I was gonna reply to your post explaining how you'd got it wrong but fortunately I stopped to dig out the issue in question and have another look at it. I think it's pretty ambiguous who's actually in the car and exactly what happens. But still, I think the fact that the driver of the car honked his horn shows that he wasn't purposely trying to knock Peter Parker down.

As far as who's actually in the car, I guess you've taken the fact that the driver calls Parker an 'egghead' as evidence that it's some of the same tormentors that we saw mocking him earlier in the story. I however, always assumed that the driver called Parker an 'egghead' because he was day dreaming and possibly due to his rather nerdish look.

On reflection, I think you're probably right about the car being full of kids from Midtown High though. The 'egghead' remark just seems a little too similar to the 'bookworm' and 'wallflower' taunts that were hurled at Parker earlier in the story. Besides, if it was a total stranger, they'd have no-way of knowing that Peter was a science nerd...they'd just think he was a bit of a klutz for not looking where he was going.

So, I'll let you have that one but I'm still not convinced that they were actively trying to run Parker down.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to your reviews of other early Spider-Man issues.

By the way, I'm assuming that you don't actually own an original, first printing of this issue? Myself, I have the early 80's Marvel tales re-print...infact all my 60's Spidey comics are Marvel Tales re-prints.

Marvel Tales = a cheap way to obtain early Spider-Man issues in colour & as individual comics.

'Nuff said!

Gilda Dent

01-01-2007, 05:08 PM

Perhaps that would be better as ". . . he's nearly run over by a group of kids in a car."

I'm reading from the Masterworks. What I have will take me up through Amazing Spider-Man #77 and all the annuals up to then. If by some miracle this is still going then, I'll switch to essentials, which currently go up to 160.

Of course, this'll probably die by next week, making that a moot point.

Chris N

01-01-2007, 05:17 PM

This is awesome Gilda.

I've actually been reading through Spider-Man for about two years now (not one issue a day; I do it in spurts). I'm up to 1984 or so in my reading. I'm doing Avengers at the same time.

spoon_jenkins

01-01-2007, 05:51 PM

Cool idea! There was something like this in the X-books board. Except all of the month's reading would be discussed after one due date. Unfortunately, it seems to have quickly died from poster apathy.

I have the first 6 Essential Spider-Man volumes. I did some reading marathons (although not as much in a row as scratchie). I may make some effort to keep up with your idea, Gilda, but there are distractions that could keep me from this issue a day thing.

Chris N

01-01-2007, 06:22 PM

Amazing Fantasy #15

Best origin for a character I've ever read.

Especially on page 2 as Peter says "I'll show them! Some day they'll be sorry-- sorry that they laughed at me!"

Almost sounds like the origin of a villain at that point.

Especially even when the science professors make fun of him.

Actually a pretty complex story to be told in 11 pages. Told very efficiently. Sometimes too efficiently. The two panels in which this teenager invents his web shooters require far more suspension of disbelief than getting powers from a radioactive spider.

And wow... he loved his aunt and uncle but noone else. Used his powers to become a celebrity; really, there's nothing wrong with that. But why couldn't he just stop that burglar? It would have been so easy. But he didn't deserve the consequences of that act. May and Ben certainly didn't.

And the ending. If there's one line that could sum up all of superheroes up 'til this point, it's that:

With great power must come great responsibility.

But before this had always been implicitly assumed, never spoken. Now we see a hero learn a bit of why.

Or do we? Negative consequences resulted from his not living up to a moral obligation. Is the lesson to do right for its own sake? Or is it that not doing right can come back and bite you in the butt? If Peter only got the latter, he may have more to learn still yet. About power. And responsibility.

Either way, this is the most tragic, most interesting, and most meaningful origin of a superhero I have ever read. Kudos to Stan and Steve!

Chris N

01-01-2007, 06:26 PM

benday-dot

01-01-2007, 06:31 PM

Lovely idea Gilda. Very earnest project. I don't know if I can travel back in time as efficiently and honestly as you. Maybe if Doctor Strange were to give me a mind wipe... ah, but, yes the good doctor has not been invented yet.

Sophisticated_Gamer

01-01-2007, 06:48 PM

If something like this has been done before, please forgive me for the repetition and close it with my blessing. This probably will die quickly anyway, as I'm probably not a good person to be doing something like this, but if it does, well that's OK.

The idea is to reread Spider-Man from the very beginning, one issue a day, trying to look at it fresh, as if it were the first time I've read this, to try to connect with it the way a new reader would without all the influences of the 40 year history of the character.

I'm going to read one issue a day and post a review, using only the information that's in that issue and those published before it.

Everyone is welcome and encouraged to join in. The one guideline I'd like to stick to is that there be no references to anything that happens after the issue being discussed, as if they haven't been published yet.

I'm off to read Amazing Fantasy #15 and write up my reaction.

Amazing Idea, and I hope you have the Essential or the DVD-Rom of it, cause it would be quite expensive finding the singles these day's lol, I would also like to join, but I need your help, I need to know what is the best way to obtain the reading material?

Chris N

01-01-2007, 06:48 PM

this is still going then, I'll switch to essentials, which currently go up to 160.

Of course, this'll probably die by next week, making that a moot point.

By the way, more optimism is needed. I'll stick with it if you do. But I have an unhealthy love of Spider-Man.

I think when I claim to like comics, I mean I like superheroes. And when I claim to like superheroes, I mean I like Spider-Man.

Chris N

01-01-2007, 06:54 PM

Amazing Idea, and I hope you have the Essential or the DVD-Rom of it, cause it would be quite expensive finding the singles these day's lol, I would also like to join, but I need your help, I need to know what is the best way to obtain the reading material?

I think you nailed it. DVD-Rom is probably great if you don't mind the format (I do-- too old-fashioned; plus it came out to late to help me; there are like 20 issues of FF I still have no access to, and buying the DVD would be easier, but I just can't do it)

If you don't mind B&W, essentials are awesome. About 25 comics for $15 ($17 for newer ones I think)

Otherwise masterworks are $50, but you can often find them for $30-ish. They'll all have 10 issues.

It will be a bit late for this thread but sometime next year they are coming out with an Omnibus of the whole Lee/Ditko run. 38 issues probably for $100, which will probably be like $70 on amazon. I'll probably buy it even though I have all of that in essential form and most in masterwork form (only a few in issue form unfortunately)

Sophisticated_Gamer

01-01-2007, 06:58 PM

I see, well i think i will go check it out in my school library, and join this fun thing! Especially with having knowledge of spiderman from the 90's cartoons and the current Amazing issues, it will be really fun :D

Gilda Dent

01-01-2007, 07:18 PM

A good way to get color copies cheaply is to get the Barnes and Noble special editions. Marvel made softcover versions of the first three Spider-Man Masterworks for about $12 each and the first Fantastic Four. Unfortunately, they're only available through B & N.

Sophisticated_Gamer

01-01-2007, 07:24 PM

Or you can just go to Boarders, get a cup of coffe, so chease cake, and just read a colored master works issue and leave, with your money in your poket.

Gilda Dent

01-01-2007, 07:34 PM

Question, Gilda. Though it's up to you of course.

Would you conisder reading other appearances of Spider-Man as well? Like Strange Tales annual 2 which pits him against Johnny. To see how our wall-crawler interacts with other heroes? I realize practical concerns may get in the way there. Just an idea.

=)

I actually have the Human Torch Masterworks on order. It covers the Strange Tales solo adventures of the Johnny Storm Human Torch, including annual #2. I hadn't planned to cover guest appearances in other mags because it's difficult to get the timing right. There should be a confrontation or two as we go through Amazing, though.

Also, one bit of trivia. Loyal readers of Rawhide Kid might notice some similarities to Amazing Fantasy #15. In Rawhide Kid #17 (first issue of the Lee/Kirby Kid), we're introduced to Johnny Bart, an orphan boy who vows to fight crime after his beloved Uncle Ben is murdered by outlaws.

Interesting, no?

Chris N

01-01-2007, 07:59 PM

I actually have the Human Torch Masterworks on order. It covers the Strange Tales solo adventures of the Johnny Storm Human Torch, including annual #2. I hadn't planned to cover guest appearances in other mags because it's difficult to get the timing right. There should be a confrontation or two as we go through Amazing, though.

Also, one bit of trivia. Loyal readers of Rawhide Kid might notice some similarities to Amazing Fantasy #15. In Rawhide Kid #17 (first issue of the Lee/Kirby Kid), we're introduced to Johnny Bart, an orphan boy who vows to fight crime after his beloved Uncle Ben is murdered by outlaws.

Interesting, no?

That's an awesome bit of trivia. I have to read more classic westerns. I'd gotten some recommendations from Lone Ranger earlier I haven't acted on yet. Soon...

If timing is the only issue, I can point to where everything goes. That annual is his first guest shot and goes after issue 5.

(though I get help from the Marvel Chronology Project (http://www.chronologyproject.com/)). But I understand if it complicates things.

I should warn also that the essentials don't do everything in the right order; in particular I remember just trying to read by the essentials and one battle with Mysterio referred to another battle with Mysterio, and the essentials had the order backwards (annual 4 and issue 66 were the obvious problem)

Gilda Dent

01-01-2007, 08:13 PM

That's an awesome bit of trivia. I have to read more classic westerns. I'd gotten some recommendations from Lone Ranger earlier I haven't acted on yet. Soon...

If timing is the only issue, I can point to where everything goes. That annual is his first guest shot and goes after issue 5.

(though I get help from the Marvel Chronology Project (http://www.chronologyproject.com/)). But I understand if it complicates things.

I should warn also that the essentials don't do everything in the right order; in particular I remember just trying to read by the essentials and one battle with Mysterio referred to another battle with Mysterio, and the essentials had the order backwards (annual 4 and issue 66 were the obvious problem)

Do you have first printings? Some of those had some obvious errors that were fixed in the second printing, just as a lot of the Masterworks books had Annuals out of order which was corrected in the second printing. The big problem was the annuals, which tended to be stuck at the end of each book instead of in chronological order, but that's been fixed, at least in the Masterworks. Volume 6 even has the original two Spectacular Spider-Man magazine issues, with one early in the book and the other near the end to maintain correct chronological order.

Chris N

01-01-2007, 08:43 PM

Do you have first printings? Some of those had some obvious errors that were fixed in the second printing, just as a lot of the Masterworks books had Annuals out of order which was corrected in the second printing. The big problem was the annuals, which tended to be stuck at the end of each book instead of in chronological order, but that's been fixed, at least in the Masterworks. Volume 6 even has the original two Spectacular Spider-Man magazine issues, with one early in the book and the other near the end to maintain correct chronological order.

I do have first printings; glad to know they've been fixed; I found it annoying. I started ignoring their orders and went with the MCP and my own instincts for reading orders.

As you go through, do you want to give advance warning of where things like annuals are placed for you? I have my own list from the MCP, but it would be nice to all be on the same page (I have annual 1 after issue 16 on my list, but I notice it's not in the first 2 masterworks, so I assuming it's in masterworks 3 in with the twenties).

But I think this is a great idea! Hope I don't seem to focused on silly logistical details.

Gilda Dent

01-01-2007, 09:58 PM

I do have first printings; glad to know they've been fixed; I found it annoying. I started ignoring their orders and went with the MCP and my own instincts for reading orders.

As you go through, do you want to give advance warning of where things like annuals are placed for you? I have my own list from the MCP, but it would be nice to all be on the same page (I have annual 1 after issue 16 on my list, but I notice it's not in the first 2 masterworks, so I assuming it's in masterworks 3 in with the twenties).

But I think this is a great idea! Hope I don't seem to focused on silly logistical details.

Nah it isn't silly. It's nerdy. You ought to see some of the complaints at the Marvel Masterworks forums. Some of the guys there are bugged if the fonts aren't all the same on the spines of their Essentials. On the other hand, maybe that's good because the guys who produce the Masterworks and Essentials have been known to check in on the threads there to get feedback and have made corrections based on that information.

I can add a coming attractions tag at the end of my summary/reviews posts, something like this:

Tomorrow: ASM #1

Annual 2, by the way, is between #27 and #28 in Masterworks Volume 3.

Chris N

01-01-2007, 10:18 PM

Nah it isn't silly. It's nerdy. You ought to see some of the complaints at the Marvel Masterworks forums. Some of the guys there are bugged if the fonts aren't all the same on the spines of their Essentials. On the other hand, maybe that's good because the guys who produce the Masterworks and Essentials have been known to check in on the threads there to get feedback and have made corrections based on that information.

I can add a coming attractions tag at the end of my summary/reviews posts, something like this:

Tomorrow: ASM #1

Annual 2, by the way, is between #27 and #28 in Masterworks Volume 3.

Nerdy? Is it nerdy that I have pages and pages of notes on what order Marvel comics should be read in? Oh, I see your point.

The Tomorrow headline is what I was looking for.

Sophisticated_Gamer

01-01-2007, 10:51 PM

I actually do arange my comics in reading order, but i think i do it the wrong way, I read the best ones first and then read the worst one last, and surprisingly i read them in the way that my last read comics is on tuesday night :D

JeTmAn

01-02-2007, 01:46 PM

This sounds like a cool idea, actually I am doing something similar myself but with four different series: X-Men, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four and Avengers. If anyone's interested, I could write my impressions of each issue as I read them. I've been reading usually about two issues of a day, cycling through the monthly release of each and reading FF first, then Spider-Man, Avengers and right now I'm a little bit ahead on X-Men so I'm not reading it until the other issues catch up.

It's pretty interesting to watch the interplay between the series as characters from one book show up in another book and vice versa. I'm a pretty new comics reader, so all these issues are new to me, even if I have a decent grounding in the history of most of the characters.

If anybody sounds like they'd be interested in reading my impressions of these books, I'll start a thread for it. I'd probably just do X-Men, FF and Avengers since Spidey is already being done.

shyguy

01-02-2007, 03:12 PM

Great idea! I've actually been wanting to start picking up the Spidey essentials and start reading those stories in order. I'm tempted to pick up the first one after work tonight, in fact. The only thing stopping me is all of the other comics I have at home waiting to be read.

Gilda Dent

01-02-2007, 03:26 PM

StarsAndGarters

01-02-2007, 03:32 PM

Tomorrow: ASM #1

I can't wait! I'll tune in for it.

Chris N

01-02-2007, 04:35 PM

Amazing Spider-Man #1:

I'm excited to see him get his own title. With two full stories in it!

What's cool about it? Random observations follow.

We see finanical problems he and May have. We see her insistence that Peter follow Uncle Ben's dreams of being a scientist. More on the responsibility theme

And then Peter thinks about becoming a criminal. I knew his origin seemed like he had the makings of a villain!

In the last issue the lesson learned was that he should use his powers responsibly, not being a celebrity. But now responsibility means doing just that to make money for Aunt May.

But then he can't cash the check! Hysterical! And a good example of practical problems associated with being a masked marvel.

And this newspaper publisher with a grudge seems cool... he reminds me of people trying to censor movies and TV shows for stupid reasons. He has a valid point about vigilantism, but the idea that children would imitate his feats? I dunno...

The rescue of the shuttle was exciting and it was great to see his first real act of herosim. And the aftermath, wow. Poor guy. His first act of heroism gets him labelled a publicity-seeking menace. He failed to act responsibly last issue and bad things happen. Now he does the right thing... bad things still happen. What does he do? "Must I really become a menace?" he muses.

Next chapter. His meeting with the FF was... interesting. As Peter, he reminds me of myself. Seems like the shy and nonconfrontational type. I would never behave as he did here, busting in, fighting them to show off, demanding their top salary. The ego and self-assurance isn't me and I didn't get the impression it was Pete either. Maybe something about being Spider-Man changes him.

Does it seem like a bit of a leap on the Chameleon's part that a guy who dressed in a spider-outfit and walks on walls would necessarily hear the same frequencies spiders hear?

Otherwise, this Chameleon seems cool. Certainly not helping poor Spidey's reputation! And I'm not sure Spidey helps himself webbing up guards and not staying to answer questions.

I'm a little unclear how this "spider's sense" he uses to tune in on the ship works.

But when he ran out of web fluid, wow. You don't think of things like that happening to superheroes!

"What if Spider-Man ever turns his super powers against the law?" muses Sue Storm. Methinks I suspect where this story is heading...

Hausdorff

01-02-2007, 06:32 PM

Gilda, this seems like a really fun idea. And I really like this bit

The one guideline I'd like to stick to is that there be no references to anything that happens after the issue being discussed, as if they haven't been published yet.

Because unlike probably everyone else here, I actually haven't read hardly any spider-man at all (just whatever cross over stuff comes up with x-men). But my roommate (coke & comics) is always talking about how awesome it is so I have been meaning to check it out at some point, this is a nice opportunity. And it is nice to be able to talk about it on the forum without stuff getting spoiled.

I just read the first 2 issues and I liked it quite a bit. Most of my thoughts were pretty much covered, but one thing struck me as hilarious, when spider man tried to use the fantastic 4's elevator, he said "Here's their private elevator, but the blamed thing isn't working! Uh oh--I forgot! It can only be operated by one of the four..." How does he think private elevators work?

Oh one more thing, J. Jonah Jameson is crazy. From what little I do know about spider-man, I knew that Jameson wouldn't suddenly like him after he saved his son, but jesus christ his reaction was just.....jesus christ!

Sir Tim Drake

01-02-2007, 06:38 PM

Welcome to CBR, Jet. And you too, Hausdorff.

JeTmAn

01-02-2007, 06:49 PM

Welcome to CBR, Jet. And you too, Hausdorff.

Thanks. I've been lurking for a couple months but haven't had occasion to post. I guess I will probably start a topic with a quick rundown on the books I've read so far in my list.

The Confessor

01-02-2007, 06:51 PM

Nerdy? Is it nerdy that I have pages and pages of notes on what order Marvel comics should be read in? Oh, I see your point.

No, it isn't nerdy. Although I should mention that I have all my Spider-Man comics filed in chronological reading order too. It's the only way to go IMO! :cool:

By the way Coke & Comics, thanks for the link to the Marvel Chronology Project. I've been searching for a website like this for ages without success. I knew there had to be a site like that out there somewhere though.

I just want to check my chronological filing order against there's. Now that might be nerdy! :rolleyes:

Chris N

01-02-2007, 07:15 PM

No, it isn't nerdy. Although I should mention that I have all my Spider-Man comics filed in chronological reading order too. It's the only way to go IMO! :cool:

Yeah, I'm not sure any of us are in a position to judge what is and isn't nerdy.

By the way Coke & Comics, thanks for the link to the Marvel Chronology Project. I've been searching for a website like this for ages without success. I knew there had to be a site like that out there somewhere though.

I just want to check my chronological filing order against there's. Now that might be nerdy! :rolleyes:

It's a great site! Lots of good discussion goes on there too. I sometimes disagree with their placements and they sometimes have clear errors. They also have every single appearance by every Marvel character from Spider-Man to Irina Tarasova ordered chronologically. Great, great site.

Gilda Dent

01-02-2007, 08:36 PM

Amazing Spider-Man #1

First, the cover. The logo does a good job of integrating the character’s name and traits, having the letters in the title suspended in a spider’s web and in the red as one of the dominant colors of Spider-Man’s costume. He seems to trapped by the Fantastic four, and the speech bubble is a thematic reference to the cover of Amazing Fantasy #15, with “They don’t suspect my real power.” The background is a bit sparse, some machinery colored a pale blue and the Four witnessing Spider-Man’s intrusion.

The splash page introduces the theme of the story to come. Spider-Man, posed on a generic web, is being pointed at and jeered by a crowd. One face is visible, that of middle-aged square-jawed man; the rest of the crowd is anonymous.

Part One

A one page recap tells the origin story in three panels. Part of panel 2 visually references both the splash panel and Amazing Fantasy #15. We also learn that in Uncle Ben’s absence, the family is in financial difficulty. More guilt for Peter. He quickly considers quitting school to get a job and crime, but neither would honor his debt to his family and to their expectations of him.

He decides to perform again, but cannot get paid without revealing who he really is and soon finds that he’s not wanted as a performer any longer. J. Jonah Jameson, owner of the largest paper in town, is waging a publicity war against him based primarily on his appearance. He tries to find a part time job as Peter Parker, but none are in the works, so we end chapter one with him considering going out as Spider-Man to “stalk the night”. How this might lead to making money is unclear, but I think we can assume that he’s once again considering crime now that all else has been taken away from him.

He laments that others get a break from the press, in the process giving a quick nod to two other Marvel heroes, the Fantastic Four and the Ant Man. This also makes for some foreshadowing of elements in the second story.

Part Two

John Jameson, son of Jonah is set for a space shot, foreshadowed earlier. The space shot goes awry and Spider-Man volunteers to try to fix it. He hitches a ride in a jet, uses his web to lasso the descending space capsule, and fixes the broken guidance system, saving John. Jonah reacts by once again launching a media campaign against Spider-Man, this time accusing him of sabotage.

In retrospect, it was probably naïve of Peter to expect a change of heart. He upstaged Jonah’s son, and in doing so proved Jonah wrong. To save face and confirm his pre judgment, Jonah upping the campaign is entirely within character.

The whole plot also echoes the splash page, with Jonah leading the attack and others following. In the end, we have Peter still contemplating perhaps turning to crime. Things have only become worse for him as a result of his good deed.

Story Two

Here we get the inevitable crossover. The most popular book in Marvel is the Fantastic Four, so putting them together in a crossover is as natural as the Justice League or Brave and the Bold over at DC.

Splash page.

A giant masked man is reaching out around the city, with Spider-Man swinging in towards him. People run from the man at the bottom and an inset panel features the Fantastic four, setting up all the elements we’re going to see in the story to come. Like previous splash panels, this is a preview page rather than a story page.

Peter speculates that he might make some money by joining the Fantastic Four, continuing an ongoing thread regarding money problems. He tries their elevator, but is locked out, so he takes a uniquely Spider man approach and walks a webline. A man in a crowd snaps a picture of Peter, remarking that he’ll make money with the picture.

He drops in on the FF and they battle, taking them on one by one and handling them adroitly, until Mr. Fantastic calls a truce. His confidence as Spider-Man edges into arrogance as he asks to join up and demands a high salary. He’s dismissed, in part because of his attitude, in part because he’s a wanted criminal (I presume for sabotage) bust mostly because the FF don’t pay a salary.

This seems a bit off--they admit that they keep enough money to pay expenses, which is very similar to a salary, and that is what Peter was looking for, but a combination of his arrogance and their preconceived view of him leads to a bit of miscommunication and hostility on both sides.

In practical terms, it serves as an excuse to put them together, show a quick battle, and reinforce Peter’s status as a sort of involuntary loner who has to make do on his own.

A quick change of scene and we see the masked figure from the splash panel disguising himself to steal something from a science lab. A newspaper shot (not the Bugle) shows that Spider-Man is now being investigated by both the FBI and the Grand Jury, presumedly for the space capsule incident, and a thought bubble tells us there was a report of his visit to the FF, giving the Chameleon, as he calls himself, an idea. He sends a signal to Spider-Man’s “spider-sense”, an ability not demonstrated before this. Peter picks up the signal, but it’s unclear if he hears the words themselves, or just gets the idea. I think we’re meant to think he hears the words. It’s strange that the Chameleon is able to do this, that he knows about a power Spider-Man has but isn’t aware of yet, and has a device able to broadcast to that power.

Disguised as Spider-Man, he steals some secret plans and gets away as Spider-Man arrives, leaving Spider-Man on the hook once again. He uses this new “spider sense” to track the helicopter, another quick, implausible narrative shortcut, then uses his webs in several nicely innovative ways to catch it before it can dock with a Soviet submarine.

After turning the Chameleon over to the police, they lose him and he disguises himself as a police officer. Spider-Man senses who it is with his spider-sense, and catches him. The police take the word of the disguised Chameleon that he’s a cop, and Spider-Man once again flees, leaving the police to discover the truth.

Two interesting things about the ending here. Peter thinks it’s another botched job, but at least one group of cops knows better. This is the first chink in the “Spider-Man as menace” idea that JJJ has been promoting. Once again, though, Spider-Man leaves the scene no better off for having his powers, reinforcing the idea of the initial story that it isn’t about personal gain, it’s about duty and responsibility. A quick reference to the Fantastic Four wondering what would happen if he turned against the law shows us both that they trust him at least a little bit at this point, and reiterates the running theme of a man skirting the edge of hero and criminal.

The two adventures both showcase Spider-Man using his powers in innovative ways--the slingshot, using the web as a lasso--and are narratively quite dense. They still have the feel of stories meant to set things up for the future and a writer feeling things out. The puzzle type crisis of the space capsule story made for a nice change of pace from the typical hero beats villain, but the villain in part two wasn’t all that interesting or compelling a foe. Perhaps it’s the link to the cold war, which might be better served being represented metaphorically than in literal fashion this way. Still, that was little more than a Hitchcockian Maguffin, so it doesn’t detract too much from the story itself.

Next: The Amazing Spider-Man #2

JeTmAn

01-02-2007, 10:12 PM

Lone Ranger

01-03-2007, 06:57 AM

Nice work Gilda.

The Chameleon has always been an underappreciated and underused villain IMHO. I like the fact that he engages the hero's brain rather than brawn.

Gilda Dent

01-03-2007, 07:22 PM

The cover and the splash panel are slight variations of the same idea, Spider-Man fighting a man in a green bird’s costume high above the city.

First story:

The green bird-man is a thief, The Vulture, who has been stealing things. He not only flies, but does so completely silently. JJJ wants to devote an issue of his magazine to the Vulture, but there are no good pictures. Peter, once again in a science lab, is inspired by the talk of the other students and gets a miniature camera from aunt May to get a picture of the Vulture. This echoes the comment last issue from the crowd regarding making money from pictures of superhero action.

It’s interesting that when the bully takes a verbal shot, Peter returns as good as he gets.

Peter’s first encounter doesn’t go well. While adjusting his camera, the Vulture swoops around behind him and knocks him out, dumping him in a water tower. Why his spider-sense, which detected the Vulture moments earlier, doesn’t catch this isn’t explained. Peter’s web-shooters are empty, a neat reference to last issue when he ran out at a critical moment. He’s not refilled them since. After a nice escape that uses both his brains and his powers, he prepares for a second encounter.

Peter makes some improvements, adding reserve web cartridges and a special belt to hold a camera he plans to get later with the profits from his pictures. He also cobbles together another mechanical device.

The Vulture steals some diamonds from a manhole and flees flying through the sewers, which are apparently connected to the subway tunnels. Peter once again senses his presence, but this time pays more attention to his spider-sense and manages to dodge the attack from behind. A brief sky battle ensues and Spider-Man uses his new device to turn off the Vulture’s powers. The silent flight told Peter that the flight was magnetic, so he’d built an “anti-magnetic inverter”.

While it’s nice to see him using his scientific ability to fight a villain, this does smack a bit of a stretch, both in the big intuitive leap he takes and in the actual application.

Still, the two encounters, the escape, and learning a lesson from the first makes for a nice narrative structure.

This is also the first story that ends happily--rent paid for a year, new kitchen appliances for Aunt May.

Second story:

Thoroughly mediocre. Peter is once again in the science lab, and gets the chance to assist a great scientist. He once again exchanges barbs with the bully, Flash Thompson. The scientist sends him to pick up a radio, and while doing so his spider-sense tells him something is wrong. Returning as Spider-Man, he finds aliens are bugging radios and other things the repairman called The Tinkerer repairs. After a brief struggle, he’s knocked unconscious with a ray gun and trapped. A clever bit quick thinking later and he escapes, the building on fire. The aliens flee, destroying their spying devices.

The aliens aren’t really aliens, of course, but metaphors for the Communist spies used last issue. That was a better story, but here we see that the story works better with a slightly more fantastic element substituted for the literal enemy.

The difference is important. Having the Soviets as literal enemies ties the story to real world politics too closely; by using a fantastic metaphor for the same basic element, we’re able to connect to and accept the more fantastic elements of Peter’s world, the powers and implausible technology. Those somehow work better in a world of alien spies than Soviet spies.

Despite this, the Chameleon story works better as a whole because it manages to play into the theme of identity that Peter/Spider-Man is struggling with.

Next: Amazing Spider-Man #3

Hausdorff

01-03-2007, 08:38 PM

The aliens aren’t really aliens, of course, but metaphors for the Communist spies used last issue. That was a better story, but here we see that the story works better with a slightly more fantastic element substituted for the literal enemy.

Wow, I totally missed this (am I dense?). I was actually thinking about commenting on how silly it seemed for aliens to be spying on us in that way...now it makes more sense.

A few other comments I had to make:

on the third page of the first story, the vulture said "Even Spider-man wouldn't have a chance of stopping me!" Why would he be concerned about spider-man, a public menace. And why wouldn't he be concerned about the FF? Oh and on the same page, in the previous panel from that one, is the vulture looking at a newspaper? Did the park avenue jewelry exchange publish in the paper when they are moving a million dollars worth of inventory? That seems unwise.

At the end of the second story, it amuses me that the aliens think we'll be on guard from now on, and the tinkerer's Jay Leno chin also made me laugh.

Chris N

01-03-2007, 09:14 PM

Random observations from part 1:

Vulture's cool. The fact that he's an old man is a great twist. Something about the splash page: "What fantastic power can the Vulture have...?" My first thought is: maybe flight.

They're still on the plot point of him having money troubles and thinking he can use his powers to make him money. Which is good. At first, I thought the idea that that's how he would want to use his powers was a good one. Once the first issue was done, and he'd learned his lesson about responsibility, one would think he was now gonna be a straight superhero. This wasn't quite the case. He still wanted to be a celebrity, albeit for less selfish reasons now, but that failed him. He did selflessly save the shuttle, but you didn't get the impression he was going around looking for people to save etc, like other superheroes. And he beat the Chameleon. But that was just to clear his own name. Now he's off to tackle the Vulture. But it's because he thinks he can make money as a photographer. Not that any of this is selfish of him. Aunt May does need the money, as does he, and perhaps that it where his responsibility lies.

Handy that Uncle Ben had a mini-camera for him.

Interesting that the Vulture snuck up on him so easily. Would have thought that strange "tingle" that alerted him to the Chameleon may have helped here. Guess not.

They use the "out of web fluid" plot device for the second time in two issues. It was cool the first time, but you'd think he would learn his lesson*. And we see the first limits on his wall-crawling ability with the slippery surface. Using spider-strength to help him leap out was a good solution.

*I spoke too soon. Once it happened twice, he learned his lesson, and dealt with ihis web fluid issues. He also at this point refers to himself as a costumed adventurer. Perhaps he's just referring to his new attempted career as a photographer.

Selling pictures to Jonah is delicious irony.

Introducing a flying villain and then having him attack from below is actually a clever twist.

The fight with the Vultute was a little anticlimactic to me. Hoping for more midair action before Spidey busted out his secret weapon. And that the "lack of noise" gave him the clue that Vulture's harness was magnetic in nature... I dunno; maybe I'm just not clever enough to see these things.

But it's nice to see they got the rent taken care of. Finishing off that small subplot from last issue.

Seeing Vulture in prison suggests we may see him again. Why don't they take off the costume?

Random observations from part 2 to follow

Gilda Dent

01-03-2007, 09:31 PM

Wow, I totally missed this (am I dense?). I was actually thinking about commenting on how silly it seemed for aliens to be spying on us in that way...now it makes more sense.

You're not dense. Science fiction movies in the 50's and 60's often centered thematically around the cold war, fear of Communist invasion, nuclear power and nuclear weapons, domestic socialism, McCarthyism. This was bound to bleed over into comics, especially the Silver Age Marvel, which applied a more science fiction oriented approach to their comics of the time than DC's more fantasy oriented stories.

If you weren't already familiar with this trend, it's easy to overlook it when it does crop up.

For another take on this theme from Stan, look at the Skrulls when first introduced in FF #2. Here are alien invaders who can look, sound, and in all aspects be just like us. This was the same metaphor that was used in Invasion of the Body Snatchers--they're dangerous they can look like us. It's powerful in part because it's the same reasoning that was used by McCarthy not long before. It's still a powerful metaphor used again and again in science fiction--see the founders in Star Trek: DS9 and the Cylons in Battlestar Galactica.

Sophisticated_Gamer

01-03-2007, 09:52 PM

Sorry, my library was all out of Essential Spider Man #1 :( so i will just have to wait to join you :D

Chris N

01-03-2007, 10:52 PM

Sorry, my library was all out of Essential Spider Man #1 :( so i will just have to wait to join you :D

When you do find it, feel free to post a bunch.

Sophisticated_Gamer

01-03-2007, 11:24 PM

THX, so which ASM comic number are we? I can't wait when we got to the 300th issue :D

Sir Tim Drake

01-04-2007, 07:30 AM

I am aware that the following comment kind of violates the rules of the game, but I think it might shed some light on the issue of the Tinkerer's aliens.

Apparently in ASM #160, Len Wein retconned ASM #2 to establish that the Tinkerer and his flunkies really weren't aliens, but people dressed as aliens. Does anyone know why this was done? Was Len ashamed of the crudeness of the original story, or something?

scratchie

01-04-2007, 09:05 AM

Apparently in ASM #160, Len Wein retconned ASM #2 to establish that the Tinkerer and his flunkies really weren't aliens, but people dressed as aliens. Does anyone know why this was done? Was Len ashamed of the crudeness of the original story, or something?My impression was always that he just wanted to bring back an ancient, obscure Spidey villain and found a reasonable way to do so.

He has a blog, BTW, so you could probably pop on over there and ask him. http://lenwein.blogspot.com/

Chris N

01-04-2007, 02:06 PM

A bit late, but random thoughts on the second story of Amazing Spider-Man #2, The Uncanny Threat of the Terrible Tinkerer!

The first old man for a villain was cool. Now we have two in an issue.

I notice Peter is getting better at making the comebacks. Calling Flash a dumbhead. Go Pete.

Something about the comment that he feels undressed without his Spider-Man outfit is telling of the effect it's having on him.

We see his spider-instincts in action again detecting electrical impulses. Still not clear what's going on there.

Something about this doesn't ring right. Aliens aren't the type of villains I figured Spidey would be up against. Seem more like what the FF are for.

Overall, I'm not really seeing the point of this story.

We get more of the "Maybe he started the fire!" reactions. Emphasizing the distrust of him. But there's nothing added to that theme here. Just a restatement.

That the aliens "can never again return to earth-- they will be on guard from this day on!" is a bit presumptious of them. To the point of being silly. Off remark thrown in for closure where it wasn't needed. Something similar but with a "We'll be ready next time" may have been even more satisfying. The battle is won but the ominous threat is looming.

Yeah, I just wasn't a fan of this story. Especially stacked up against his battles with Vulture and Chameleon.

EDIT in response to Gilda: I liked the Chameleon a lot, largely for his functional role to help sew distrust of Spider-Man. A master of disguise seemed like just the right choice.

As far as the connections to the Soviet threat, literally via the Chameleon, and metaphorically, via the aliens, you are probably dead on about the intention. It is in a sense just as relevant today if you change Soviets to Arab terrorists. Suspicion within goes from communist sympathizers to anyone who disagrees with Bush politics, etc. etc. That being said, it's not the type of thing I'll focus on in my considerations because I just don't care. The fear of threats among us isn't deeply rooted in my subconscious and doesn't particularly resonate with me. Everything about Spider-Man and his struggles for acceptance to understand power and responsibility does. Hence when I review the Chameleon, I focus not on the objective, but on what matters to me, which is the effects the encounter has on Spider-Man. From my somewhat more self-involved perspective, Chameleon and Tinkerer are less linked and Chameleon is effective in screwing up poor Pete's life a little more, whereas the Tinkerer story has little noticeable value.

Just a proviso as to where my biases lie and how I rarely bother to look at things intelligently or objectively.

Chris N

01-04-2007, 07:26 PM

Amazing Spider-Man #3

Dr. Octopus.

Spider-Man, Chameleon, Vulture, and now Dr. Octopus. I'm sensing a pattern.

So the splash page boasts "The only enemy to ever defeat Spider-Man!"

(a) That would be more meaningful if he weren't the fourth villain. And (b) When Spidey thinks "I almost wish for an opponent who'd give me a run for my money!", it seems kinda prophetic.

I like the Spider-Signal. Makes the cool dramatic entrance and actually serves the practical purpose of distracting/disorienting the foes. Nice that the action is kept to one panel of Spidey fighting the crooks to show how easy this was. Webbing them up and leaving them for the police is certainly a nice touch.

There's a bit of a change here in Spider-Man. He seems to be more of a traditional hero now, seeking out crime to stop. Rescuing John Jameson had fallen into his lap; as did the trouble with the Tinkerer. Chameleon had challenged him. And he sought out the Vulture purely for profit.

But here he stops a random robbery and his thoughts indicate this has become commonplace. Profit may still be involved if he's taking pictures to sell. But it doesn't indicate this is what is happening. The clear suggestion is that he's been swinging around seeking crime to foil. Why? Is it:
a) help reputation
b) make money
c) live up to responsibility his power gives him
d) some sort of visceral thrill; guy who was always on the bottom now enjoying being able to win all his fights

It's likely a combination of the four. The last is what's most explicitly suggested by his thoughts about seeking a challenge.

On page 2, we see Spider-Man getting his wish, or so Stan's narration indicates.

We see Otto Octavius (more alliteration like Peter Parker, Reed Richards etc.) already has the nickname Dr. Octopus due to the four metal arms he controls to aid him in his experiments. (2 arms+2 legs+4 metal arms=8) This is an interesting point. By now, the conventions of the superhero genre are well-established. With Spider-Man they break a few by making the teenager a hero, not a sidekick, making him talk to himself rather than introducing a teammate/sidekick, and making him less selfless and more everyman than the average hero. Superman pretends to be Clark. Spider-Man IS a dork. But it keeps others. He still has a costume, by now he seems to have adopted the role of crimefighter. And he still has a codename, as do his villains. They explained his own name as part of his wrestling gimmick. Vulture and Chameleon were just accepted without question. Ignoring that this is an established genre, this seems odd. Code names do make sense for criminals. Why announce your real name to the world? Here we see that Dr. Octopus is a nickname given by his peers. Not clear at first how he feels about it. But we soon see a colleague addressing him directly by that name, so it appears it was in standard usage and accepted by him even before his super-villainy began.

Somewhat sad actually. While not given a glimpse of his personality before the accident (that may be unfortunate actually), we know he was brilliant and respected before the brain damage caused by the explosion not only welded the arms to him but caused brain damage, driving him insane.

We see Spider-Man enter the picture as before, not seeking to right a wrong, but being sent to investigate on assignment by JJJ.

It's not entirely clear how one man managed to create such a stir at the hospital without more attention. He can keep a room hostage with his powers, but not a hospital.

Since I haven't made mention of it before, though we have seen it, in particular at the beginning of this issue, Spider-Man's first line to Doc Ock is a joke. He's adopted a flippant mannerism for fighting. Not quite in tune with initial impressions of Peter. Again suggesting the change being Spider-Man has made in him. There's a question of how to interpret this. Do his powers give him confidence, that he can take things in stride, or does the humour mask his fear, him trying to seem more confident than he really is? His subconscious attempts to deal with the fact that he really is shy and introverted but forced to deal with situations that require a degree of boldness? On the outside, he's the unbeatable Spider-Man. But really, he's Peter Parker, bookworm. Drastic contrast between who he was and who he is, and perhaps between who he is on the outside and who he is deep down. Humour may help him deal with that.

Or, I'm over-analyzing and he just sometimes thinks of funny things to say and says them.

The fight is only two pages, but glorious nonetheless. More what I was hoping the battle with the Vulture would be. Back and forth, Spidey thinking he has the upper hand at first, paying the price for his confidence, them using their powers to react to and counter the others moves, ending with the great image of Spider-Man captured by Doc's arms as Ock slaps him in the face. Then he tosses Spider-Man out the window, secure in being unbeatable. "Pride goeth..."

"Is this the end of Spider-Man?" Peter muses. And at first I'm tempted to dismiss that as him overreacting. But really, he is just a kid. He has little business doing battle with powerful super-villains and fighting crime. But his spider-powers are enough of a crutch that he hasn't needed much skill of his own (though his brains have come in handy!) But this was a good reality check, and maybe the right time for it, though a bit more establishing of Spider-Man feeling on top of the world wouldn't have hurt. Reminds him that, as a crimefighter, he IS nothing without his powers. At least at this point. And if Dr. Octopus' powers trump his, maybe it's time to call the Fantastic Four, or Iron Man, or Thor, or someone. Go home. Train some. Wander the earth for a decade like Batman. Then be a crimefighter.

Meanwhile, Dr. Octopus takes over an atomic plant.

And now we see why this is a great issue. A dejected Peter seems to be ready to give up the Spider-Man gig when Human Torch speaks at his school and says all the right things to inspire him not to give up. Notably, Johnny doesn't mean to be talking about super-heroing, but being a student. The parallels were nice though and are part of the message of Spider-Man and how it applies, that people should live up to their obligations, whatever they may be.

His spider-senses remain a mystery to me, but he says they warn him of danger behind him as he breaks into the plant to confront Octavius. Why didn't they warn him about the Vulture last issue?

After evading traps, we once again return to the theme of Peter's science skills being his real power, as he whips up chemicals do deal with Ock's arms. Good move in blinding Doc with the webbing too. And appropriate that it only took one punch to take him out. He was just a normal man with metal arms. Getting past them was the only challenge; it's good this was realised.

Strange that an old-fashiond punch to the jaw defeated the most dangerous villain I've ever faced, muses Peter.

It ends with Spider-Man visiting the Human Torch to thank him for his help, which confuses Johnny who muses about wishing Spider-Man had stuck around as he later shows off his powers. A friendship may be blooming here.

This was Spider-Man's first epic issue-length story. Well worth it though. Would have felt cramped in 11 pages. Great issue.

Perry Holley

01-04-2007, 07:46 PM

Sir Tim Drake

01-04-2007, 07:52 PM

That was a very enjoyable analysis, coke. But I would argue that there's no such thing as over-analyzing. ;)

Gilda Dent

01-04-2007, 11:29 PM

The Amazing Spider-Man #3

Truly a humdinger of a story. The origin in Amazing Fantasy was good for what it was, but the stories in the first two issues were fairly ordinary. This one takes it up a notch.

The cover is striking--a man with four mechanical arms holds Spider-Man helpless. The splash page is pretty ordinary: Another shot of Dr. Octopus on a blank background and a reference to the most popular member of the Fantastic Four, the Human Torch.

We get a quick set up with Spider-Man using a new toy--a Spider Signal in his belt. He takes down some crooks and laments that nobody really challenges him. It's a blink and you'll miss it moment, but I think this is meant to show that he’s been taking down street level crooks for some time and gotten bored with it, not just that the crooks in the previous issues have been too easy. It’s a bit of time compression along with the foreshadowing and an introduction to how cocky Spider-Man has gotten.

I also think he’s still not completely in it for costumed hero reasons. A later meeting with JJJ has him being assigned to get pictures of Doctor Octopus. My guess is that catching criminals remains a combination of guilt and necessity. Peter catches crooks in part because he needs pictures of Spider-Man in action.

We get a quick origin story. Otto Octavius is a nuclear scientist who uses mechanical arms, earning him the moniker of Dr. Octopus. It’s interesting that he had the nickname before going insane. An explosion drives him crazy, he gains mental control of the arms, which are now fused to his body and he easily manhandles the overconfident Spider-Man.

The mechanical controls that become mental is a nice nod to comic convention. It’s typical of tech based heroes to be described as needing to operate some device to use their powers, but they’re then portrayed as having mental control over them as a narrative shortcut. See Cyclops over in the X-Men or The Atom over at DC. Technically Cyclops should always have to open his visor to fire his force beam and Atom should always have to manipulate his belt to change size or mass, but in practice they sometimes have mental control. Doctor Octopus gaining this control from the very beginning saves some unnecessary narrative encumbrance.

Dr. Octopus causes a disaster at an atomic research facility and gets the place to himself. The authorities are stymied. Where will they get help?

A visit and pep talk from Johnny Storm and Peter is ready to go into action again. We get to see the slingshot again and Pete using his science skills to prepare for the encounter. The battle takes two stages--first, Peter must avoid a series of booby traps, then there’s the one-on-one confrontation. Once again it’s a combination of strategic thinking, using his science knowledge, and clever use of his powers.

A denoument with the Torch shows us a grateful Spider-Man thanking Johnny and we get a quick explanation for why he hadn’t taken down Doctor Octopus himself--he was sick with the flu.

No pictures to sell, but this time it doesn’t matter. This might be a clue that Peter has started to move away from heroing for profit through pictures, and moving more towards altruism with a little bit of thrill seeking mixed in.

Once again, we see confrontations with the bully. In the first encounter, Peter, dejected from his failure, takes the taunt without response. In the second, after beating Dr. Octopus, he returns as good as he gets, as with before, a nice linking of his Spider-Man and Peter identities. When Spider-Man is doing well, Peter shows more confidence.

Good, solid, fun superheroics.

Next: Amazing Spider-Man #4

Gilda Dent

01-04-2007, 11:38 PM

Gilda, Coke (and any others), I really hope you continue with this.

I remember last year, on another message board, someone who was reading Watchmen for the first time. He read each chapter individually, would let his thoughts stew for a few days, and then post them in a similar manner to which you are doing. There was a lot of interesting insights that I gleaned from that thread, and I suspect this thread has the potential to do much the same.

Please, continue.

Thanks. For what it's worth, these Spider-Man issues were what got me into comics in the first place. My mom got a box of comic books for me when I was little, buying them from some kid who'd gone off to college and left them behind. Most were pocket book (mass market paperbacks) sized reprints in black and white with only a few panels per page, and those sucked badly, but the gems were a group of full color full page reprints. There were three Spider-Man books, one Fantastic Four, and one Incredible Hulk. They weren't quite the size of modern digests, but were the size of a standard paperback book, meaning that the pages had to be reduced to a tiny size, but I was mesmerized. I read those five books over and over again, AF 15 and Spider-Man 1-20, Fantastic Four 1-7, and Incredible Hulk 1-6. I know these first 21 Spider-Man issues by heart, but it's still fun to revisit them, especially in these beautiful archival editions.

Part of the reason the stories worked in those tiny reprints is the art style of the time, with the very often empty flat colored backgrounds. At the time, I never even noticed how empty they were because I was following the story.

I'm hoping it keeps going for a while also.

Chris N

01-04-2007, 11:47 PM

It’s typical of tech based heroes to be described as needing to operate some device to use their powers, but they’re then portrayed as having mental control over them as a narrative shortcut. See Cyclops over in the X-Men or The Atom over at DC. Technically Cyclops should always have to open his visor to fire his force beam and Atom should always have to manipulate his belt to change size or mass, but in practice they sometimes have mental control. Doctor Octopus gaining this control from the very beginning saves some unnecessary narrative encumbrance.

Not breaking a rule or two are we? It's July of 1963. I don't know who this "Cyclops" person is. Perhaps one of the characters they'll debut in that "X-Men" title in two months I heard about.

By the way, I read those same digests when I was young. The only one I still have is Dr. Strange. Not sure what became of the rest.

Gilda Dent

01-05-2007, 12:05 AM

Ah. I was off a bit there. I'm not real clear on the debut times for all the issues. Still, the Atom reference fits, and I think we can fudge a little bit on cross references like that if not referencing a specific story. I just don't want to see an appearance turn into a discussion of how this story has been retconned by Spectacular vol. 2, issue 13. I think each story should stand on it's own, at least as it connects to those stories of the same basic time frame.

However, good catch.

Dr. Strange! I think I had that one, too. Those stories seriously freaked out my eight or nine year old self.

Chris N

01-05-2007, 12:13 AM

I was kidding, of course.

Gilda Dent

01-05-2007, 12:27 AM

I was kidding, of course.

Have you not been here long enough to know that I take everything too seriously? I have humor disability. You know, how some people have a learning disability like dyslexia, or a mental deficiency? I'm like that, but with humor. Think Data before the humor chip was installed. In three or four hours I'm going to find that very funny and wake up my wife with my laughter.

Chris N

01-05-2007, 12:36 AM

Have you not been here long enough to know that I take everything too seriously? I have humor disability. You know, how some people have a learning disability like dyslexia, or a mental deficiency? I'm like that, but with humor. Think Data before the humor chip was installed. In three or four hours I'm going to find that very funny and wake up my wife with my laughter.

You've said this several times. I just have memory impairments. Think Data when he loses memory engrams.

Maybe I can teach you about humour. If someone says something mean to someone else, it's funny. Except when they cross a line; then it's really not.

Most of what I say is meant frivolously. Except when I'm serious.

Hope that helps!

Gilda Dent

01-05-2007, 12:40 AM

You've said this several times. I just have memory impairments. Think Data when he loses memory engrams.

Maybe I can teach you about humour. If someone says something mean to someone else, it's funny. Except when they cross a line; then it's really not.

Most of what I say is meant frivolously. Except when I'm serious.

Hope that helps!

Ah. Several of the gentlemen here tried to explain to me in another thread how that kind of funny works and where to draw that line and were quite unsuccessful. I remain as humor dysfunctional as ever.

Perry Holley

01-05-2007, 04:11 AM

There were three Spider-Man books, one Fantastic Four, and one Incredible Hulk. They weren't quite the size of modern digests, but were the size of a standard paperback book, meaning that the pages had to be reduced to a tiny size, but I was mesmerized. I read those five books over and over again, AF 15 and Spider-Man 1-20, Fantastic Four 1-7, and Incredible Hulk 1-6.I know the collections you're referring to; I have several of them in storage myself. If memory serves, I have the first two Spider-Man collections, the three Conan collections, the FF collection, and a Captain America collection.

Chris N

01-05-2007, 10:42 PM

Amazing Spider-Man #4

Random observations:

Opening scene is wonderful. We first see Spidey hanging upside down as he does reading a billboard where Jameson advertises what a menace he is.

He then sees suspicious characters casing a jewelry store and attacks them. He seems to web them up, but it's apparently loose enough that they slip out easily. The leader of the gang is a smart guy who realises that they've yet to commit a crime. He threatens to have Spider-Man arrested for harrassment and all the crooks yell for the police. And they're right. They had broken no law and he had attacked them. Spidey realises this. One even makes fun of his outfit. "Don't you feel like a jerk, paradin' around in public in that get up??" It's not normally pointed out in superhero comics how ridiculous their costumes can seem.

Sure enough, a policeman comes along and Spidey thinks a curious thought:
He'll find my web on the ground, and it's their three stories against my one!

But... would there stories conflict? Spiderman would claim he had good motive for attacking them. But would he try to deny what happened? They should all tell the same story. Was Spider-Man considering lying to the officer? I hope not. So, after attacking citizens and being told by an officer to come in for questioning, he runs off. Not only is Jonah on his warrantless crusade to prove Spider-Man is a menace, but here we have Spidey engaging in illegal activity. His attack on the would-be-perps was perhaps justifiable but his not answering the cop's questions is illegal in any sense. Perhaps he is a menace? Either way, those criminals were more clever than I'd have been.

As Spider-Man swings off, he thinks that all Jameson's articles have caused criminals to lose repsect for him, musing that what happened tonight was all Jameson's fault. But... he was careless there. It was kind of all his fault. Yet he blames it all on Jonah. Didn't he just learn a lesson about responsibility?

Anyways, he does the mature thing and retaliates by leaving webbing stuck to Jonah's seat. JJJ finds it in the morning (presumably some 12 hours later) and gets stuck.

Next Spidey sees a police chase and a man climbing onto a roof he assumes is the query. He shines his spider-beacon onto him and swings in for the tackle. In a panel I don't understand, Spider-Man stops his charge and seems taken aback. He pauses midsentence to exclaim, "Holy Hannah! Who are you?!" This could make sense if Sandman were using his powers in a noticeable way. But he wasn't. Looked like an ordinary guy to me. Confused, I am.

Anyways, Sandman introduces himself. Spider-Man is familiar with him and that he is "wanted by the police from Maine to Mexico." Spider-Man tries to take him and we get a demonstration of Sandman's powers. His body is actually composed of sand in his total control. They mention a few aspects of this and I'll ruminate on it.

In practical terms, we see Sandman can be essentially intangible, and Spider-Man can't grab him. He can dissolve into a pile of sand in whole or in part and reform himself. He can reshape his body, making it elastic like Mr. Fantastic. He can also harden the sand to make himself stronger (perhaps he packs it more densely in his fist; this is not clear). In a later scene we see him forming his hand into a key, taking advantage of the shape-shifting aspects of his powers. No matter how he reshapes himself, he seems to maintain the same basic color scheme, as his brown pants and green shirt seem to be also composed of sand and presumably thus part of his body. It's not clear why this should be so, but it's neither clear that this is unfeasible given the circumstances.

Since he seems in full control of himself in a pile of sand, he obviously has no need for internal organs of any kind. No need to breathe. He is just living sand. They obviously take the perspective that consciousness can exist independent of neurons travelling through brain cells as there is a single will controlling a disparate collection of grains of sand.

After Sandman's first strike, Spidey's mask is torn and we Peter choose to flee for the sake of his identity. We get a glimpse into why he feels it is important to maintain as a worst-case scenario of him being run out of town for hiding his identity previously and May being left without support. Notably he only considers the consequences of his identity coming out after he's tried to hide it. No mention of why it was worth hiding in the first place. It now seems obvious, though this point doesn't go through his head, that some criminal could seek revenge on him through Aunt May.

We see Peter forced to repair his suit himself, another example of this series dealing with the practical concerns about being a teenage superhero.

A news report reveals Sandman's origin. He was a criminal named Flint Marko who was caught in an atomic blast on a beach, which, of course, turned his body to sand. Very similar to the Hulk, and many other origins. Another example of how radiation, and atomic blasts were akin to supernatural forces to most people of the era. The substantial difference between Sandman's origin and that of Dr. Octopus is that Ock's accident led to his powers and his turn to villainy. Sandman was a bad guy to begin with.

Unfortunately, Peter again faces the problems of a secret identity as May walks in while he's sewing his costume. He quickly throws on a robe and pretends to be sick to avert suspicion. The news tells us Sandman robbing a bank at present and Spider-Man wants to go confront him but Aunt May is busy tending to him and he doesn't know how to get away. More secret identity issues! Maybe he should just tell his aunt...

The next day, we see Jameson lose his pants to Spidey's webbing trap, get angry (as he does), suspect a connection between Sandman and Spiderman, and get angrier when Peter asks for an advance. Stingy type, apparently.

We then start to see how Spider-Man affects Peter Parker's life. We learn he'd asked Liz out for a date more than once. Side note: this means he was turned down by a girl and tried again. This officially makes him less shy than me. Perhaps I'm nerdier than Peter ever was... Back on track. She had agreed to a date but has to cancel it to go fight Sandman, offering the lame excuse that he has to study. We also see him unable to focus in class. His powers give him the responsibility to fight Sandman. But what about his responsibility to Liz' feelings? To his personal life? His studies?

After evading police, chance (a common bane in the life of our hero) brings Sandman to Peter's high school. Peter changes to fight him off. Hindsight tells us the two panels which involve him going to the boiler room to see a janitor adjusting a new king-size vaccuum cleaner are important. A more clever reader than I may have noticed foreshadowing of the key to defeating Sandman. But there's no reason to wonder their purpose as it already has two: a) Peter is there as punishment for not paying attention, and b) he muses about the contrast of a janitor's cares to his own.

Spider-Man fights Sandman to cheers of students who would never cheer Peter. The irony is not lost on him. Flash roots for Spidey while voicing his assumption that Peter is hiding under a desk somewhere.

The battle with Sandman lasts five pages. For that, it's less memorable than his two page fight with the Doc last issue. We see the same range of power demonstrated before and Spider-Man try obviously useless tact after obviously useless tact before sucking him up in that fancy vaccuum.

Having forgotten to take pictures, Spider-Man instead photographs himself punching ordinary sand he'd tossed in the air. "...it can't be unethical!" he muses. Staging photos to sell to a newspaper? Of course not...

Spidey delivers Sandman to the police. Jameson is suspicious of him and rants to this effect. The police seem to not be on his side this time. Peter gives Jonah the roll of film. Jonah says he'll take the development out of his paycheck. All heart, that one.

This is a great issue, the real strength being Peter's struggles. We see a little more of them in the epilogue. With Sandman captured sooner than expected, he realises he should never have broken the date with Liz. But it is too late. She'd already made plans with Flash and was still upset with him about breaking it off. Angry at a wisecrack Flash makes, Peter loses his cool and nearly pulverises him. But he stops himself, knowing he cannot fight a powerless teenager. He walks away, being called a coward.

We then see a great panel in which Peter hears negative reactions of various people to Spider-Man, some persuaded by Jameson, some pointing out legitimate concerns about vigilanism, and whether Spider-Man would ever turn against society. One man points out he's probably neurotic for wearing such a costume. Kids seem to prefer Human Torch.

The last panel summarizes his doubts about being Spider-Man combined with his resolution that he must have the powers for a reason and he has a duty to be Spider-Man! Good little soliloquy to wrap up a great issue.

You can tell I like it by how long I ramble on. But it was a 22 page epic which accomplished a lot as far as dealing with a myriad of problems Peter's dual life is causing him set against the backdrop of a seemingly invincible foe. Good stuff.

Gilda Dent

01-05-2007, 11:37 PM

While I was tied up for most of the evening, coke and comics covered the comprehensive review for issue #4, so I'll just make a few observations and piggyback on a few of his so as not to rehash the same points.

We have a repeat of the same structure as the Vulture story and the Doctor Octopus story: Spider-Man fights the villain, loses, regroups and changes strategies, and comes out ahead as a result of using both his brains and his powers.

The cover and splash page are a change from last issue, giving us a really nice look at a villain that seems truly scary in just a few images.

As Coke and Comics says, we see him getting a date with Liz Allen, then losing it when he breaks the date to deal with Spider-Man business. This echoes the very first page of the first Spider-Man story, with the dark-haired girl turning him down for "the umpteenth time". This, combined with the verbal back and forth he has with Flash, shows us that he isn't really the wallflower the other students like to label him as; he certainly seems to be more intellectual and a little introverted, but not exactly shy about how he deals with bullies or with girls.

The faked photos are a neat little justification. He's talking to himself, as if trying to convince himself that what he's doing is acceptable. We're certainly sympathetic--JJJ is a jerk, and possibly dishonest, and he needs the money for crimefighting purposes, so he has good motives, but there's still a bit of the flavor of looking for an excuse. Still, if the raising of the flag at Iwo Jima (also a staged recreation or the original event) is justified, the circumstances here might mitigate his dishonesty a bit.

Next: Amazing Spider-Man #5

Hausdorff

01-06-2007, 12:39 AM

In a panel I don't understand, Spider-Man stops his charge and seems taken aback. He pauses midsentence to exclaim, "Holy Hannah! Who are you?!" This could make sense if Sandman were using his powers in a noticeable way. But he wasn't. Looked like an ordinary guy to me. Confused, I am.

He seems to be drawn quite a bit different to me than all of the other characters. I took it to be he was either just strange looking (he can't quite mimic human traits given his new sand powers) or he looked really strong.

They obviously take the perspective that consciousness can exist independent of neurons travelling through brain cells as there is a single will controlling a disparate collection of grains of sand.

Interesting observation, I hadn't noticed this.

I had 2 additional comments. In regards to the web on JJJ's chair. Didn't they tell us earlier that his webbing disappears after an hour? Is there a reason that should have not gone away by the next day?

Another is that I really hate JJJ. He gets an idea in his head and just sticks to it. No matter what comes up, he weaves it in his mind to match what he wanted it to be. For example, early on he says "what if there could be any connection between the two" and then later he says "I'm convinced they are in cahoots!" with who knows what reason. I've known people who are like this and it is just as infuriating to talk to them. They did a good job of capturing it as sometimes JJJ makes me quite angry.

Gilda Dent

01-06-2007, 01:43 AM

Another is that I really hate JJJ. He gets an idea in his head and just sticks to it. No matter what comes up, he weaves it in his mind to match what he wanted it to be. For example, early on he says "what if there could be any connection between the two" and then later he says "I'm convinced they are in cahoots!" with who knows what reason. I've known people who are like this and it is just as infuriating to talk to them. They did a good job of capturing it as sometimes JJJ makes me quite angry.

It's basic prejudice. JJJ saw Spider-Man, didn't like the way he looked, and expected the worst of him. Since then, he's interpreted every interaction through the lens of that initial impression. It's the same way racism works, or class prejudice, or religious intolerance. It's particularly apt with the last of these, because the prejudice is based on how he dresses rather than how he treats others--religious or other cultural prejudice often manifests in this way, in seeing dressing differently as a sign of character.

Stan does seem to still be working out exactly how the webs work--sometimes they're sticky, sometimes they're like ropes, sometimes they're like a bit of glue. They can be elastic enough to use as a slingshot, or stiff enough to immobilize Doctor Octopus's limbs if would tight.

Chris N

01-06-2007, 10:45 PM

Amazing Spider-Man #5

Random observations:

We see Jameson has a whole TV show dedicated to exposing the truth about Spider-Man. Most of Pete's friends are big Spidey-supporters. To help protect his identity, Pete speaks against Spider-Man. To me, the best way to hide something is to blend in and agree with everyone rather than voice the lone dissenting opinion.

Rather than introducing a new villain, Spidey borrows a foe of the FF, Dr. Doom, who first appeared in Fantastic Four #5. He has fought the FF three times in the past due to his ambition for more power and his personal grudge against Reed Richards.

Dr. Doom is misled by Jameson's broadcasts and thinks he can make an ally out of Spider-Man. He recaps how he did not actually die when he appeared to in FF #17 in case anyone was wondering.

He contacts Spider-Man using an imprisoned spider to broadcast a signal only Spider-Man will hear, similar to how the Chameleon contacted Spider-Man. It doesn't make any more sense to me than it did the first time.

"How can anyone have figured out a way to reach me through my spider's sense," wonders Peter, even though this is the second villain to do so. The functioning of this sense remains a mystery.

Doom attempts to convince Spiderman to rule the world with him. He points out that the Fantastic Four are celebrities why Spider-Man is hated. This is a good observation and it is interesting to consider why this may be so. Perhaps because they don't wear masks? At the end of the day, the only answer may be that public opinion needs no rhyme or reason.

Spider-Man refuses Doom's offer and escapes after a brief fight, getting blamed for the building blowing up of course.

While selling photos to JJ, Peter questions his obsession with Spider-Man. His secretary suggests Jonah may be jealous. Jonah insists his only real motive is profit. But it seems like more than that. Peter muses on how attractive Betty looks. This may be worth noting...

Doom is able to trace Spider-Man's power signature but accidentally zeroes in on Flash, who's in a Spidey outfit to play a trick on Peter. He intends to use Spider-Man as bait for the Fantastic Four. Peter actually at first is glad at the opportunity to be rid of Flash, something a true hero wouldn't think even for a moment, but then relents.

Spider-Man swings around the city, trusting his "spider instinct" to tell him when Doom is near. This power still seems vaguely defined to me.

What follows is a 7 page battle between Spidey and Doom, where Doom throws assorted devices and mechanical traps at Spider-Man. We see Spidey use his spider sense to dodge blows. The battle is indecisive and ends when the FF arrive and Doom decides to retreat. The battle is also fairly uninteresting.

Compared to the last two issues which were jam-packed with character development and dual identity issues, this one had little going for it and was mainly an excuse to pit Spider-Man against Doom.

We see another example of Peter having to trick Aunt May to get himself out of the house. And more of the rivalry between him and Flash. But little new.

The only development of note occurs in two panels throughout the issue. The one mentioned where Peter notices how attractive Betty Brant is, and a panel towards the end where Betty whispers to herself how wonderful Peter is. Maybe things will start to look up for our hero...

Note for continuity freaks: Spider-Man makes his first guest appearance in Strange Tales annual 2 around this time. I may read it tomorrow along with Amazing Spider-Man #6. If it turns out well, perhaps they'll let Spidey guest star in another book someday.

Gilda Dent

01-06-2007, 11:29 PM

Some observations on Amazing Spider-Man #5.

The ongoing editorial comments regarding how great this issue is going to be and how incredible the fight sequence would be should be annoying, but actually left me with a little grin because of the unbridled enthusiasm shown.

This was another guest shot, and follows the formula--JJJ attacks Spider-Man, Flash bullies Peter, Peter has two encounters with the villain of the month, the first one unsuccessful and the second somewhat more in that he saves the hostage.

He manages to fight Doom to a standstill, but in the end has actually lost the fight when the Fantastic Four show up to save him from being bashed in by a heavy piece of machinery. Marvel is playing up the crossover potential pretty heavily.

The splash page introduces JJJ's secretary, who seems to be sympathetic to both Spider-Man and Peter in her brief appearances in the book.

Peter plays his dual identity in two ways, defending the "Spider-Man as menace" idea to his peers, then defending Spider-Man to JJJ. This, along with the equivocating a little when Flash is shown in jeopardy on tv shows us how he's really more reactive than the other big Marvel heroes, the Fantastic Four. Peter tends to take things on the fly, as a teenage boy would be apt to do.

Competent, but a step down from the quality of the past two issues.

Next: Amazing Spider-Man #6

Hausdorff

01-06-2007, 11:58 PM

I liked this issue quite a lot. Perhaps since I know virtually nothing about Dr. Doom, I didn't mind the crossover quite as much as you guys.

Anyway, my random comments about this issue:

I thought it was really crazy that peter talked badly about spider man to his "friends". Everyone else seemed to like spider man, so there was no reason for him to take the opinion that spider man is bad to hide his identity. In fact, saying that singled him out and actually brought attention to him. If the other kids were saying spider man sucks, I could see him agreeing, but this was silly in my opinion.

I liked that JJJ said he is attacking spider man so intensely because it sells papers. As C&C said, it seems that there is more to it, but at least he has other motives too. I can respect greed a lot more than a mindless grudge.

The way he got away from aunt may was pretty bad. First, leaving her in the dark seemed like a really bad way to go. I think he should have either found another excuse to leave, or simply sneak out his window or something.
Also, when he got back and had forgotten to get fuses he thinks "I'll tell her I was too scared to walk the dark streets alone!" Now how is that going to work given that he was gone so long he forgot he left her alone?

Lastly, the whole thing about Dr. Doom capturing spider man and using him as bait for the FF doesn't make much sense to me. Clearly they are not actually going to agree to his terms, so it's just bait to get them to come to him, why does it need to be spider man, why not any other Shmoe. Also, he mentioned he wanted spider man's real identity but left flash's mask on the whole time.

I like Dr. Doom a lot. I like that he plans ahead and makes all those neat little gadgets and booby traps and things to help him out. I wish he had his own comic, I want to see him kick some ass.

The Confessor

01-07-2007, 06:42 PM

Good reveiw of ASM#5 there coke & comics.

I like this issue a lot! It may not be quite as heavy on character development as previous issues but it's still an absolute corker IMHO! There's loads of great action and some really good use of the supporting cast too. Plus, Doctor Doom's gotta be Marvel's best villain ever!

Just as an aside, on the last page Aunt May explains that she got nervous in the house alone and went next door to the neighbours. I wonder if that was a certain Anna Watson and her niece? Hmmmm...

Chris N

01-08-2007, 12:07 AM

Strange Tales Annual 2

Following Spidey into his first guest appearance, If I may.

Random observations related to Spider-Man:

We see Human Torch jealous of all the press Spider-Man gets. Strange, as Spider-Man feels jealous of Johnny's celebrity status.

Meanwhile, criminals steal a painting and leave webbing at the scene to implicate Spider-Man. Once again, every is ready to believe the worst of our hero.

Spider-Man seeks out Human Torch for help, but Johnny is convinced he is a criminal already and they engage in a long and, ultimately indecisive fight.

Following the pattern of his normal fights, Spider-Man uses the intermission to web up a scientific doohickey that will help him win the next encounter.

Sure enough, Spider-Man wins this one. In the aftermath, Human Torch realises Spidey is innocent after all and decides to help him.

So we have two heroes meet. Misunderstanding leads to a fight. Then they team up to stop the real bad guy. Sensible enough outline.

Human Torch blazes a message in the sky for Spider-Man. Spidey responds by shining his spider-signal from the torch of the Statue of Liberty in a nice iconic image. And it is there these two heroes meet to team up to catch the real crooks and save the day. Notably, during the fight they manage to make fun of each other enough. But I think now it's friendly humour. Maybe Gilda can explain this better.

We see Spidey again use his spider sense to track down the crooks as he tracked down Doom. Human Torch mentions having heard of his power. How did this power become public knowledge? Did people infer it as Chameleon seemed to? Does Spider-Man tell everyone? If so, why?

Fantastic Four Annual 1

This has a retelling of Spidey's encounter with the FF from Amazing Spider-Man #1. Several panels are redrawn and some were deleted. Several more are added, with the purpose of extending the fight sequence.

But, what you really came for is:

Amazing Spider-Man #6

After a few non-animal themed villains like Doom and Sandman, we finally get back on track with the Lizard.

Peter is attending a dinosaur exhibit to learn about lizards (?) when robbers show up. I will here start a running tally as to how many times trouble coincidentally finds Peter Parker. Tinkerer was 1. Sandman showing up at his high school makes 2. This makes 3. Here, his spider-sense tells him a ruby has been stolen. This opening is independent of the main action of the story. It leaves Liz with a crush on Spider-Man though.

We see Peter almost ask Betty something when Jonah interrupts to send him to Florida for the Spidey/Lizard fight.

Following the theme of having trouble hiding his secret identity, Jonah accompanies Peter to the Everglades, making it hard for Peter to operate as Spider-Man.

Spider-Man loses his first encounter with the Lizard (as is expected), being flung away. Is it now time to use his science again? Not yet. He first seeks out lizard expert Curt Connors only to learn Connors is the Lizard! A brilliant scientist invented a formula to regrow lost limbs which he tested on himself. It went awry. I consider this kind of clice, but I'm not sure how much it was at this point. Similar to the FF for sure. Ant Man, except that didn't go awry.

Another brief skirmish with the Lizard and we see he is still partly Dr. Connors, but his humanity is slowly slipping away from him. I find this idea a compelling one. Something about not being in control, but still being aware, and, worse, aware that your very awareness is fading, being replaced by something evil, something that could harm your family. Scary stuff. I think there's a good character with the Lizard. Similar to why I like Hulk. Primary difference being that Connors may be similar to Banner, but Lizard is evil, where Hulk is angry and misunderstood. A true villain.

Apparently Peter majored in science in high school. Did people ever have majors in high school? As nice as it is to see Peter use brains over brawns, he's able to do a lot with his science, even for a really, really advanced teenager. "If it turns green, then I have succeeded..." I'd lent this to a friend in the Essential version and that scene loses something in black and white.

So Lizard wants to make all lizards powerful and humanoid so they can rule the earth. Obviously, human side is gone at this point. As Spider-Man goes off to battle, sweet little Billy reminds him to be careful, because it is his father. So Spidey should be sensitive to the fact that this is an innocent man he's fighting.

Spider-Man makes water-skis out of webbing. Cool.

After a battle, Spider-Man gets the antidote into his mouth. Connors burns his notes so this will never happen again (this I believe). Spider-Man agrees to keep his secret.

Peter returns home and thinks about asking Betty out. Since she's busy he asks Liz out. Liz is convinced Spider-Man has a crush on her and is waiting for him to call. "Only a guy with my nutty luck could end up being his own competition," says Pete. I suspect every superhero has had the same problem.

This issue was also somewhat meh, with the Lizard's actual plans for a reptile army being a bit silly, and me getting tired of how far they stretch Peter's scientific talent. But I find the basic concept of the Lizard intriguing enough to weigh this issue positively in my mind overall.

Next issue, the Vulture returns. I knew they should have taken the costume from him when they put him in prison.

Gilda Dent

01-08-2007, 06:42 PM

Observations regarding Amazing Spider-Man #6:

Peter is still in such a good mood that he calls both Betty and Liz to ask them out on dates. Dude! Any questions we might have had regarding Peter’s confidence with girls is gone now. Asking out a professional woman apparently in her early 20’s (or at least fully adult high school graduate) as a high school sophomore, then asking out the girl the guy who is bullying you likes, that’s going beyond confident to downright cocky.

This makes for the third animal-based villain, all three of them scientists of a sort, for the aspiring scientist with animal-based powers. Do I sense a theme or two here?

Peter has gained a great deal of confidence in general, and continues to juggle his four areas of responsibility (school, job, home, superheroics). Something’s got to come undone sooner or later.

We get information regarding the Lizard's powers from the science museum lecture about dinosaurs, and later see the Lizard controlling a group of alligators. Neither dinosaurs nor alligators are lizards. Perhaps the Lizard's powers are related to reptiles rather than lizards specifically.

Perry Holley

01-14-2007, 02:59 PM

Any more reviews forthcoming? I'm really digging the ones I've read so far.

StarsAndGarters

01-15-2007, 12:08 AM

Any more reviews forthcoming? I'm really digging the ones I've read so far.

Me too! I'm actually reading those same issues and really enjoying the posts. They make a great companion.

Chris N

01-15-2007, 03:12 AM

Amazing Spider-Man #7

Here we see one of Spider-Man's old foes return for a rematch: The Vulture.

While the meeting of new villains is nice, in terms of an ongoing series, I like the establishing of rivalries and therefore approve of the return of old villains. As long as it doesn't go on forever. One day, eventually, the hero and villain should have their climactic final battle. And then it can be done. But I'm still happy to see more Vulture. So let's go.

It begins, as it should, with Vulture in prison. He was well-behaved and thus allowed special priveleges. But they underestimated him, which is easy to do, as he is an old man. He cobbled together a flying device out of junk parts and made his escape. A large part of the charm of the Vulture is that he's old, yet consistently proves himself to be no less capable for it. Makes a great supervillain though many would consider him to old. Fitting that his archnemesis is a teenage superhero who many would consider too young.

The radio reports his escape as we see standard bickering between Pete and Flash, followed by the now standard thoughts of Pete of the temptation to use his powers to show up the creep. Peter complains of being sick as an excuse to leave, knowing he's once again proving himself a wimp in the eyes of Flash. [I]Strange how you always get those "headaches" when something exciting is going on, says Flash. This could suggest Flash suspects something, but probably only that he suspects Pete is a wimp who feels sick at the thought of danger.

The art style grows increasingly less "efficient", for lack of a better word. Ditko seems to be able to dedicate more panels to ideas. An extreme example is three panels to remind us about Spider-Man's wonderous web shooters.

In homage to the last fight, Spider-Man thinks he can again use the antimagnetic inverter to win the day, and Vulture attempts to dupe him into thinking so, though he had actually improved on the wing design, leading to a victory for the Vulture in round 1. Different from previous formats though, Spider-Man lands hard on a roof, spraining his wrist.

We see a near miss of Aunt May walking in on Peter in uniform. Since I fell behind, I forget if it's been made clear yet why he doesn't just tell Aunt May. Concerns her heart won't take it? Or that she seems to be so afraid of Spider-Man and thinks poorly of him? Maybe it's more subtle, that he feels his identity as Spider-Man is linked intrinsically to his part in Uncle Ben's death, the latter he is not ready to confess to her.

By now, a status quo has been established. Spider-Man is a superhero, going around fighting crime, then selling the pics to Jonah. At school, he's ribbed by Flash, gets angry, but holds back. He always struggles to hide his identity from Aunt May. Each issue has a villain and two fights to beat him. And in general, things don't seem to go his way. These ideas tend to be referenced in every issue, this being no exception.

Spider-Man realises only he can stop the Vulture, and will go after him despite his bad wrist. It's not clear why others can't handle it. The Avengers have formed by now. The "I'm the only one who can stop him" routine seems somewhat silly in the context of the burgeoning Marvel universe.

Vulture decides to rob Jameson, while Peter is present. This makes time #4 Peter has randomly been found by trouble. Spider-Man seeking out and finding the bad guys, I'm okay with. Them sometimes attacking where Peter happens to be, fine. It seems to be quite frequent. Quickly becoming a cliche lazy plot device.

They have a fight within the Bugle building, to Jameson's humorous complaing about damage and money, etc. It seems to me the Vulture would be better served taking the fight outside, which he eventually does.

The battle is marked by a great ending scene, where Vulture thinks he has Spider-Man high in the air, and notes that he admires Spider-Man's courage in not begging for his life. But then Spidey does the unexpected, and webs up Vulture's wings, a tactic Vulture didn't expect for it would seem to doom them both. But Vulture didn't count on Spidey's versatility with his webs as he spins a parachute to save the day, making clever quips about Vulture begging for his life they way Spidey did not.

Afterwards, we get the hilarious scene where Jameson threatens to sue Spiderman for all the damages, even though Spidey just saved his life. Spidey webs his mouth shut, noting it will last an hour.

After changing back into the clothes he had hidden, he huddles behind a desk with Betty, compliments her on her perfume and the issue ends with his arm around her. Something is beginning here, methinks...

Chris N

01-15-2007, 03:18 AM

I'd fallen behind earlier this week, then noticed Gilda had too, so I'd given up on it. Not too into the idea of doing this all by meself. It would be lacking without someone a bit better at story analysis.

But, if people are missing out, I'll do what I can.

Which tends to be a summary with occasional commentary. My main interest and focus tends to be on Peter's character and what each issue reveals about it. Because that's what interests me here. Someone else more adept at reviewing art, or action, or plot structure etc. may balance that.

At the once-a-day idea, we should be at Amazing Spider-Man #13. I may try to catch up to where we should be by doing a few a day. So tonight, look for my review of Amazing Spider-Man #8 with Strange Tales #115 thrown in for good measure, possibly with a very quick peek at his cameo in Avengers #3.

So, I'll try to catch myself back up. Hopefully Gilda will too. (I need you, Gilda) Anyone else want to join in since I seem to be slacking?

Chris N

01-15-2007, 04:38 AM

Strange Tales #115

While the rest of the FF are occupied (Sue and Ben by writing a report, and Reed by studying blindness), Mr. Fantastic sends Human Torchto deal with the Sandman. I'm curious what was going on with them when the Vulture was at large. Perhaps busy battling Molecule Man.

When Reed refers to Spidey as Johnny's friend, Human Torch corrects him, calling him no friend of his. I think this is posturing as they seemed to be growing closer in their last couple encounters. I bet Johnny's just trying to act macho here. You can tell he likes Spider-Man.

I was gonna focus my review of this issue on the stuff relevant to Spider-Man. But this must be noted. Sandman escaped by turning to sand to slip through the bars of his jail cell. I don't even know where to begin what is wrong with this. They know his powers; why stick him in an ordinary cell? Why didn't he just escape the second they put him in or released him from the vaccuum? They couldn't have stopped him. Why did they release him from the vaccuum. Perhaps it's inhumane to keep him there forever, but surely Mr. Fantastic or somebody could have come up with a better solution than stick him in ordinary prison. Geez louise.

Mr. Fantastic orders Human Torch to seek out Spider-Man so Spidey can beat Sandman again. Torch is of course insulted by this. While they've gained something of a friendship, it is one based largely on competition. But Johnny does fly around for several hours, and, not finding out webbed wonder, he confronts Sandman himself. We learn Sandman's main interest is revenge on Spider-Man. Vulture had sworn revenge on him too. It's a good thing Pete thought to keep his identity secret when he began his wrestling career.

Insulted that Sandman ignored him, Torch disguises himself as Spider-Man to lure Sandman into a fight with him. Torch beats Sandman, but it was unconvincingly easy. I don't think Stan is recognising the potential of Sandman's powers here.

In the end we see the real Spider-Man a little upset Human Torch butt in on what he considered his fight. We see how much competitiveness and ego dominates both their thinking, evidencing that glory is still part of Spider-Man's motivation. Also of note, the theme of the issue is that everyone thought only Spider-Man could beat Sandman, and Human Torch was feeling like he was in Spidey's shadow. This contrasts Spider-Man's feelings. Each envies the other. Each is fiercly competitive. Each is young and hotheaded. An interesting friendship is at works.

Now for the main attraction,

Amazing Spider-Man #8

We see a return to the two-story format here. And this issue breaks two elements I'd referred to as being part of the status quo in my last review. There's no supervillain of the month this time, unless the Living Brain qualifies. And the Flash/Peter dynamic which has been repeating itself the past few issues comes to a head this time.

Here we see Peter call Flash a loudmouth and stand up to his bullying and agree to a fight after school. I'm through pretending to be a pantywaist to conceal my secret identity, thinks Peter. He even taunts, Give your jaw a rest-- before I fracture it! Go, Pete!

We see a supercomputer with hands and legs on wheels introduced. The splash page suggests it won't remain docile. And we see two mooks thinking they can turn a profit with the help of this genius computer. The brain can supposedly answer any question, so they ask it for Spider-Man's identity. Coincidentally, Peter, being the top student, is chosen to input the question, though he fears the answer.

Peter inputs all the information the students offer, including approximate height, weight, frequent spottings etc. Pete enters the info (he could probably fudge a bit without anyone noticing, but he doesn't). Luckily for Peter, the answer is not given in english, but math code, which he has to take home and translate. I have a concern about how much sense that makes. This machine can do almost anything it seems, but can't print a name in english.

Anyways, Flash and Peter bicker more, so the science teacher does what any science teacher would do and sets up a boxing match where they can settle their differences. Violence, of course, being the only answer.

So they box. Everyone assumes Peter is afraid of Flash. But he's afraid of hurting Flash. I'm not clear that agreeing to this fight is the most "responsible" thing to do, anyway. Remember what comes with great power, Pete? Peter tries to pull his punch but knocks Flash through the ropes. Meanwhile, the Living Brain runs amok. Peter's second hit accidentally falls while Flash is distracted by hearing about the Brain. Flash looks away is Pete KO's him. The students call foul and boo, Peter. Before he was being booed because he was sure to lose. Poor guy can't win.

Anyways, Spider-Man stops the rampage of the living brain. Meanwhile, Flash accidentally trips the escaping bad guys who caused the mess. Pete decides to have some fun, pointing out that Flash stopped the bad guys, wasn't around while Spider-Man was, has a similar build to Spider-Man, earlier had been eager to get the paper with Spidey's identity from Peter, and may have thrown the fight so as not to make people suspicious of his identity. Peter then decides he'll pretend he lost the paper with his identity in the excitement. If I were him, I would decode it first to see if it did guess his identity correctly. Because if the Brain did it once, it can do it again...

The next story features the Human Torch.

Here, Spider-Man decides to pay a visit to Torch's girlfriend to "show her what she's missing". Quite the rivalry is developing. Though a friendly one, I still maintain.

The splash page actually begins, rather than advertising, this story. We see that Johnny drives a fancy car and is surrounded by girls. Pete is poor and not a hit with the ladies. Spider-Man crashes the Torch's party heralded by a web-bat he constructed. An angry Torch chases him around the sky as Spider-Man taunts. We see Spider-Man use his webs creatively and Torch do the same with his flames.

The fight takes them to a beach where the rest of the FF show up. Spider-Man mistakingly assumes they are mocking him and attacks them as well. Sue is the voice of reason and ends the fight. Spidey compliments her and swings off leaving her a webbed heart as a token. He has a soft spot for the ladies.

This is a short, odd little story. But we see Spider-Man really is a kid, and not a very level-headed one. Not what you'd associate with a bookworm. Quick to anger and to jump to conclusions. That gets him into trouble. Not always undeservedly. Our first encounter with him ended with him learning, "With great power must come great responsibility." A great line which sums up most of superherodom. Presumably living up to that is part of his motivation for fighting crime. While he'll never let another criminal escape him, he is nowhere near fully mature in the use of his powers. Which is good. The problem with the superhero archetype was always motivation. They were always too noble, too heroic to begin with. Powers were given to men who were already like larger-than-life heroes. Spider-Man was different from the onset. Other hero gets powers and decides to do goo. He got powers and had to learn to do good the hard way. It would have been easy to then let him become a "typical" noble hero given the underlying motivation. But Stan has avoided that. He's still conflicted, still sometimes selfish. Still a kid. Still learning. Why the series is still good.

Meanwhile in Avengers #3, Iron Man is seeking help in the search for the Hulk. He is snubbed, rather rudely, by all the heroes he encounters, Spider-Man included.

Sir Tim Drake

01-15-2007, 09:08 AM

Nice job, coke. Your summaries continue to be highly enjoyable.

The fact that Spidey and the Vulture are at opposite extremes of age is an interesting possibility that, as far as I know, was never really explored. It was something they had in common, so it could have helped them connect with each other despite their rivalry, like in that poem by Shel Silverstein:

Said the little boy, "Sometimes I drop my spoon."
Said the old man, "I do that, too."
The little boy whispered, "I wet my pants."
"I do that too," laughed the little old man.
Said the little boy, "I often cry."
The old man nodded, "So do I."
"But worst of all," said the boy, "it seems
Grown-ups don't pay attention to me."
And he felt the warmth of a wrinkled old hand.
"I know what you mean," said the little old man.

Perry Holley

01-15-2007, 06:51 PM

But, if people are missing out, I'll do what I can.I'll admit it, I'm needy by nature. ;)

Chris N

01-16-2007, 03:16 AM

Amazing Spider-Man #9

Odd opening sees Spider-Man swinging frantically across the city. Onlookers assume he is desparate to reach an emergency. Sure enough we see him come across a shootout between cops and robbers. But he swings right over them, for he is trying to get medicine to a sick Aunt May. This strikes me as odd. Presumably Spider-Man just was too focused and didn't notice the crooks. If he had, he surely would have stopped them. Remember what happened last time he ignored a crook...

Also of note is that the criminals are ready to give up when Spider-Man arrives, despite all being armed. His reputation is spreading apparently. And a cop was relieved that Spidey had come to save the day, so at least some officers do see him as a hero. Hopefully seeing Spider-Man ignore their plight and swing off won't change his mind. But knowing Spider-Man's luck, it probably will.

We then see Peter sit by May's bed while she sleeps, feeling helpless. Bringing May's failing health into sharp focus is in keeping with the basic theme of the series: everything that can go wrong for our hero will. May's condition worsens and she is sent to the hospital. The sense of responsibility weighs heavily on Peter. This, not the responsibility of a superhero, but of a nephew to the loving woman who raised him and has always provided him.

Meanwhile, we see this issue goes back to the villain-of-the-month format as we meet Electro. At first it seems that, like Vulture, Electro's powers come from a special suit of his own design. He charges the suit with electricity and can fire electric shocks. Later in the issue we learn an accident turned him into a living electrical generator and he built the suit to help harness the power. So his origin is partly like Sandman. He wasn't already a criminal like Sandman, but he was a greedy and heartless jerk to begin with.

Good little character moment with Flash. We see that he has a newfound respect for Peter after their fight last issue. He decides to try to talk to Pete, but gets brushed off, as Peter is far too worried about his aunt to pay Flash any heed. That's what I get for startin' to soften up, says Flash. So this probably doesn't indicate a change in their relationship, but it may show that there is hope for it to evolve.

Betty visits Peter and May in the hospital. She is being established as an important figure in Peter's life. She tries to offer her support but is also ignored. She makes the insightful observation that Peter's outer expression is just a facade. It's as though he carries a deep secret within him, one which no one can ever share. She clearly cares for Peter and is growing to understand him.

May's hospital bills see a return to the finanical insecurity of the first couple issues. Rain puts a damper on Peter's plans to take pictures that night. We get a panel essentially summarising the series where Pete complains that he can't study because he's worried about May's conditions and expenses. Trying to juggle school, a job, and caring for his aunt is enough for the poor guy. Throw in being Spider-Man and...

We also see the rain soak Spider-Man's costume. This series is very good on focusing on the fact that he just has the one and dealing with the hassles associated with that. He fears the rain will shrink it and has to hang it to dry in his room. He innocuously forgets to shut the curtains, which could be disastrous if someone noticed his costume through the window.

Electro robs a bank that Jameson has to be at. I've been keeping count of how often trouble coincidentally finds Peter. Maybe I should do the same for Jonah.

Since Electro is powerful, confident, and escaped by scaling the building using his electric powers like a magnet, Jameson of course assumes Electro is Spider-Man and publishes a paper to that effect. Plenty of people seem quick enough to believe him.

I'm always curious what drives our hero. To what extent he's decided to be heroic and noble, and to what extent he's not. He at first shows no interest in Electro, but that is presumably because he's too distracted by Aunt May to worry about anything else, even the potential harm Electro can do to others. But, desperate to get $1000 for Aunt May's medical costs, he realises there is a reward for Electro's capture and sets off to stop him for the money. This isn't selfish, of couse. The money is for May. And taking care of her is also his responsibility.

As has become typical, Spidey loses his first bout with Electro by carelessly grabbing Electro's charged costume, rendering him unconscious. Electro's thoughts are a bit puzzling to me. I didn't mean to do that-- but it was his own fault. He didn't give me a chance to explain the danger of touching me! This seems oddly compassionate. Maybe he's not such a bad guy. Happy to threaten and steal, but not really wanting to hurt anyone. The narration afterwards suggest that Electro thought Spider-Man was actually dead, underestimating his spider-strength. Maybe killing is the line he didn't want to cross. Though in the flashback to his origin he was perfectly willing to let someone die unless he got paid to help them.

A lot happens in this issue. I am highly pleased with it. Brings right to the forefront the conflicting responsibilities in Peter's life and the sacrifices he has to make. The next sacrifice we see is his integrity in the name of helping his Aunt. Jameson had offered him the money in exchange for proof Spider-Man was Electro. So Peter faked the proof and took the money. Both damaging his reputation as Spider-Man (if it could be worse) and perhaps jeapordising his career as a photojournalist. But, more importantly than the consequences, is the compromising of his values by cheating Jameson and the public of the truth. But, sometimes practical concerns win out over ideals, and lying is the only recourse. Aunt May would die without the operation. And she mattered more than anything. Then, May asks Peter to not leave the hospital while the operation is underway, preventing him from going after Electro, who's caused a jailbreak to start a crime spree. He's saved her life at the cost of his honesty. Now, for the sake of her wishes and peace of mind, he'll ignore the harm being done by Electro, harm he can prevent. Too many responsibilities. All in conflict. Too many hard choices. The weight presses in on him. Luckily he's found a true friend in Betty, who waits silently by his side outside May's room, and they share a bond which needs no words to explain.

But, even as Betty and Peter's relationship dawns, strains appear. With May recovering, Peter decides to go to the jail riot, obstensibly to photograph it, though Betty begs him not to. When he insists, she makes a cryptic comment about him enjoying the danger and excitement, just like someone else she once knew. She has some tragedy in her past she won't let Peter in on. She's been a good friend to him during May's ordeal. What Betty needs now is support from him, rather than the stress which comes from knowing he'll be rushing into danger. His responsibility to his friend must come second to his responsibility as Spider-Man, though.

As has become typical, Spider-Man comes to his second fight prepared, this time a little more low-tech than usual. He had enough foresight to wear rubber gloves to punch Electro with. He easily scares off the other convicts and ends up beating Electro with water. He gives Jameson free pics of his fight with Electro to clear his conscience some.

Betty yells at Peter for risking his life, making another cryptic reference to someone in her past, and Peter walks out on her, then regrets it. Fortunately, she finds him, and they walk together through the night, each feeling the first pangs of the emotion that we call-- love

I don't know about you, but I thought that was an emotional roller coaster of an issue. In and of itself, it seems best representative of the Spider-Man story as a whole, as Peter tries to juggle the many responsibilities in his life. Is he ready for the responsibilities that will come with a relationship with Betty on top of it all? I guess we'll wait and see!

Chris N

01-16-2007, 04:37 AM

Amazing Spider-Man #10

Uncharacteristically, this issue opens with the main action. We see Spider-Man try to foil a heist by Big Man and his Enforcers and learn the Big Man prepares for every eventuality and is set to take over organised crime in the city. We also meet his henchmen, the Enforcers, Fancy Dan, Ox, and Montana. Rather than having a single supervillain, we have a team of human villains, who respectively have brains, skill, strength, and, uh, lassoing ability.

We then return to the hospital with Peter and see even more dual identity issues as Peter needs to give Aunt May a blood transfusion, but fears his irradiated blood will be detected by the hospital or perhaps affect her in some way. But he has no choice. Things seem to work out. Also, Liz and Flash visit Aunt May. So they do care for Peter, though Flash tries his best to pretend not to.

We meet a new reported, Foswell. Also, the identity of the Big Man is a mystery. I'd like to pretend a connection is obvious to me, but I know that's only because I've secretly read these before.

Peter comes across the Enforcers as they harrass Betty, who owes them money. Time #6 trouble has coincidentally found Peter. Betty doesn't want to involve him so lies about her dealings with loansharks. Peter takes her lack of trust as a sign she cares less about him than her. Tsk, tsk. Why must people always try to infer what others are feeling and not just trust each other to be open and honest about their feelings?

Spidey needs information to hunt down the enforcers. Here, we see a new trick. Spider-Man needs to make a criminal fear him. He just doesn't quite have that Batman thing going for him yet. But he does the next best thing and pretends he has a giant spider which he makes out of webbing. Spider-Man blinds a crook, then uncovers his eyes to make him think he's trapped on a giant web with a giant spider. It would be hard to create this effect outside, but there's no indication Spider-Man takes the man anywhere. Ditko has fun with a couple almost surreal panels Spider-Man doesn't normally give him a chance for, to give us a sense of the effect, at the expense of the creation of the effect. Which is cool.

Spider-Man's first battle with the Enforcers is unsuccessful, as is expected. Partly due to him being weak from the blood donation. But seeing Jameson at the scene makes Spider-Man suspect Jonah may be the Big Man. Ironic as Jonah thinks Spider-Man is the Big Man. And is having Foswell write a story about it. This is Jameson not learning his lesson from the Electro incident. Let me digress here. Hating Spider-Man and jumping to conclusions about him is fine. Having a negative slant toward Spider-Man in his papers, I'll allow. But to have a reporter write the story without real evidence, forget what it's about, that's just very bad journalism. The type a publisher should never approve, let alone insist upon.

Meanwhile, Betty decides to leave town to protect Peter from the Enforcers.

Peter's plan to find the Big Man is to get himself captured by spreading the word he knows Big Man's identity. I dunno, I'm not sure that when I was in high school I knew how to spread word that would reach a crimelord's ears. Especially a word that would make said crimelord take interest in me. Maybe in some small town. But New York?

We see Big Man does know who Parker is. Maybe it is Jameson, as Peter suspects. Probably not, though. Let's guess Foswell.

I know I often tend to leave the action scenes out of my analysis, but I never know quite what to say about them. It goes on a few pages. They talk to each other in each panel. Spider-Man gets a signal to the police and ends up winning the day. But Big Man escapes.

They never get a final confrontation, as, in what is (but probably shouldn't be) a twist, the police figure out Big Man's identity (it was Foswell, even though he's small and meek) and arrest him without incident.

We see an interesting contrast to the unmasking last issue. When Spider-Man beat Electro, he went to unmask him and learn his identity, which one presumes would be dramatic, and learns it's some nobody.

Now the villain did turn out to be connected to Peter, but he didn't do the unmasking.

The last page is pretty cool. 3 lines of panels.

The first focuses on J. Jonah Jameson. Where we get quite an interesting soliloquy.

Am I always to be thwarted, embarrassed, frustated by Spider-Man? I hate that costume freak more than I've ever hated anyone before! I'll never be contented while he's free! All my life I've been interested in only one thing--- making money! And yet, Spider-Man risks his life day after day with no thought of rewards! If a man like him is good-- is a hero-- then what am I?? I can never respect myself while he lives! Spider-Man represents everything that I'm not! He's brave, powerful and unselfish! The truth is, I envy him! I, J. Jonah Jameson-- millionaire, man of the world, civic leader-- I'd give everything I own to be the man that he is! But I can never climb to his level! So all that remains for me is-- to try to tear him down-- because, heaven help me-- I'm jealous of him!

Commentary in a moment.

The next line of panels features Peter. He is worried about Betty, who's left town, wishing she'd let him help her. Drama is here brewing.

Finally, we see Betty, alone in another state, wanting to call Peter for help, but not wanting to endanger him. She's in trouble. And only someone like Spider-Man can help her. To be continued...

Now, back to Jameson. So, I always knew there was depth to his character, a reason behind his single-minded crusage. There could be good reasons, a healthy mistrust of masked men, a belief in law and order and that it is disrupted by the presence of vigilantes, a realisation of the power Spider-Man possesses and the legitimate threat he could pose if he did turn to evil, a preference that people find their heroes instead in police and firefighters, or astronauts like his son. These could all make sense. Or, his reasons could be selfish and personal, as he suggests here where he reveals he is jealous of Spider-Man. Because Spider-Man is more selfless and heroic than he could ever hope to be. And that would make perfect sense to me as a subconscious motivator. But if it's not subconscious. If he knows Spider-Man is a hero, and that the cause of his obsession is jealousy, why keep making up lies? Shouldn't be hard as a newspaperman. Just don't lie.

So, he knows the truth, concsciously, about why he behaves that way. So why not stop? Yes, that's easy to say looking at him and listening. But I know that there are many bad things I do in my life that I don't plan to stop anytime soon. Spending too much money on comics, time on the forums. Not eating right. Not exercising. Letting desire for leisure take precedence over work too often. I know there's a difference between recognising a character flaw and correcting it. Even if it's actions you've done and will do again. Me recognising I'm not nice enough to some people, but not becoming any nicer. But this is about more than character flaws and acts he knows are wrong. There seems to be self-delusion at work. Jeaporising of paper claiming Spider-Man is Electro, then Big Man. Yet he knows better. And not deep down, he admits it. So why continue? Is it really that easy to lie to yourself, especially after such an intropsective moment. I'd like to claim that doesn't make sense. But I know I'd be wrong. People lie to themselves all the time. People can convince themselves they're righteous in doing just about anything. Just needs a bit of rationalising, usually.

I know it's possible it was this Big man incident that led to Jonah's introspection and a moment of clarity. But I got the impression he'd known for a while. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he'll stop. I doubt it highly though. I think we have an interesting character here. Notably, in the last couple issues, we've seen the better side of Flash, too. Peter's antagonists are turning out to be decent enough people deep down. Nice to know the supporting cast is human too, and capable of being as complex as Peter. Good show.

Meanwhile, in Strange Tales #119, Human Torch is having a bad day. Everyone seems to be against him and it may be the fault of the Rabble Rouser. Spider-Man offers to help, being an old hand at being hated, but Torch is in a bad mood and yells at him to go away. I maintain they're friends now. At least Spidey was acting like it.

Nate C.

01-18-2007, 06:24 PM

Aaron, great analysis of Pete and the Vulture and their extremes of age. I never really considered the implications (beyond the obvious). I like the Silverstein connection.

Chris N

01-18-2007, 11:50 PM

In follow-up to my words on JJJ last time, here's a quote from Stan the Man himself in his introduction to Marvel Masterworks Spider-Man vol. 2:

JJJ has come to represent the most conservative, straitlaced members of society, the self-righteous know-it-alls who dislike and distrust anyone who looks, acts or thinks differently than they do.

But make no mistake about it. Jolly Jonah is not a villain. He's not a bad guy. He just marches to the beat of a different drummer.

And now,

Amazing Spider-Man #11

In this issue we see the mysteries surrounding Betty Brant alluded to in the previous couple issues come to a head. We also see the return of Dr. Octopus, the second of Spider-Man's foes to return for Round 2.

I have the same concern with Dr. Octopus being placed in an ordinary prison as the Sandman, that it's way too easy for him to escape with those arms of his. But we get no indication that special precautions were taken. We do learn Doc Ock didn't try to escape, but acted as a model prisoner in order to expedite his release. It's not clear how long it was supposed to be in jail. Nor is it clear how much time has passed. But it's less than a school year for sure. So Doc Ock was let out on parole with 9 months. A quick google search pulled up an article of a man sentence to 9 years for sending spam email. Maybe he can be out on parole in 4. But the Doc took hostages, then broke into a federal facility, in particular a military facility, in particular a nuclear testing facility. At some points this should be becoming a heinous crime against America. Surely this is a more serious offense than spamming. But, nonetheless, in a matter of months the good doctor is out on parole, hopefully to become a responsible member of society.

Spider-Man's reaction to hearing the news that he would be released is particularly brash, rushing to prison, insisting the warden not let him out. This clearly was not going to be effective. What could a mysterious masked man say to cause this jail warden to break the rules? Good old impetuous Peter.

Luckily, he doesn't trust Doc and whips up a homing device that he can track (really a whiz, that kid). He shapes it like a spider in case anybody finding it wants to know who's following them. Armed with this "spider tracer", he goes to follow our newly released doctor, only to find he is being picked up by... Betty Brant! Oh, the drama!

Anyways, we finally learn Betty's terrible secret. Her brother owes a mobster some money from gambling. Well, it's not that terrible. But it may explain an obsessive desire for the men in her life to stay away from dangerous things. It's not a hugely shocking twist, but it has the appropriate effects on her character, which has the appropriate effects on Peter's character, which is what counts to me.

Anyways, Peter tracks down Betty, they have a romantic "always trust each other moment" and Peter promises Spider-Man will take care of Dr. Octopus and resolves to reveal his identity to her. A little soon, methinks. She seems trustworthy and all and I'm always tempted to trust pretty girls who are nice to me, too, but he just learned her brother's working as a mob lawyer and tied to Dr. Octopus. I would hold on to the identity just a while longer. But he's young and in love so I won't judge him harshly.

As is standard motif at this point, Spider-Man ends up at the scene of where Doc Ock broke the Betty's mobster friend out of prison, only to be accused by the police of being involved. Just to reiterate that nobody quite trusts him yet, and his attempts to do good seem to go badly for him.

Another motif is mundane problems interfering with him. Here we see Spider-Man land poorly and sprain his ankle, hampering his fighting ability.

In contrast to the standard format, Spider-Man only has one fight with Dr. Octopus this issue, which ends indecisively. This is the first issue of the series where Spider-Man doesn't have the villain beaten by issues end. Which means people need to read the next one to see what happens! That's 24 cents just to see Spidey beat one villain! And what's next. Three issues to beat the bad guy? I don't like where this is headed. (Note some degree of sarcasm in this paragraph)

The most important developments in this issue though do not involve Dr. Octopus, but Betty.

During Spider-Man's battle with Blackie, Blackie fires a few shots into the air. Seeking to protect Betty, her brother gets in the way of them and is killed. She yells at Spider-Man for interfering, laying the responsibility for her brother's death on him. This shakes up Peter even though he tells her she's mistaken, and probably throws a wrench in the revealing of secret identity plans.

Is Spider-Man responsible for Bennet Brant's death? Blackie was primarily responsible for firing the gun. Bennet himself was not blameless for making the choices that lead to dealing with mobsters in the first place. But he fired the gun because of Spider-Man's presence. Does the guy going into a room with innocents to tackle criminals assume a measure of responsibility for the safety of those innocents? I would think so. Why police have such careful hostage protocols. Spider-Man is powerful, but also a teenager, untrained, and somewhat reckless. Captain America probably would have been able to disarm Blackie while ensuring nobody was caught in the crossfire. Spider-Man is not Captain America. Nobody is. Spider-Man did the best he could? Is that enough? When the alternative is to do nothing? Obviously we can't predict what would have happened if Spidey hadn't interferred. Maybe Bennet would have survived. Or maybe Betty would have died as well. But responsibility is important to Spider-Man. To him, that means helping out when and where he can. But what if there are situations he's not qualified to handle? Should responsibility then mean not interfering for fear of making things worse. It seems like the truly responsible thing to do would be to go train better in the use of his powers, then try to be a hero. Go on a Batman-like odyssey. But he can't do that because of his responsibilities to Aunt May, and to his studies, which is what Uncle Ben would have wanted him to focus on anyway.

I harp on the word responsibility, I know. But that to me is the interesting aspect of this series. With great power comes great responsibility. Which is almost just saying "Do the right thing." By itself, that's not that interesting of a message. But this series continually makes it clear how hard it is to determine what the right thing is.

In the end, Betty admits that she had been angry and realises Spider-Man was not to blame, as he was only trying to help. But she also declares that she never wants to see Spider-Man again, for fear of being reminded of this tragedy. So the identity revelation plans are still out the window. And a lonely Peter walks into the night in the shadow of Spider-Man, in what I consider a wonderfully haunting image by our friend Mr. Ditko.

Chris N

01-19-2007, 12:26 AM

Amazing Spider-Man #12

I don't usually comment on the art as I don't feel particularly qualified too. But, the first 11 issues did not satisfy me. There was a collection of images and poses which have become iconic. And the sheer variety and distinctiveness of the positions he creates for Spider-Man are quite impressive. But there has been a stiltedness to it that put me off a bit. Somehow, it changes 180 degrees with this particular issue. Almost any page evidences this. In particular pages 7-8,11-12, and 16. Suddenly I feel like I'm looking at the greatest artist in comics. Is this just me, or do others feel there is a sharp increase in quality?

Now, for the story, which I do enjoy commenting on.

One panel fills us in via a newspaper headline about last issues battle. The top sentences of the article are included to see the fight framed from Jameson's perspective. I guess his introspective moment a couple issues back hasn't led to a change in the tone of his articles.

Dr. Octopus commits a crime spree out west, hoping to bait Spider-Man to track him down, not realising Spider-Man is just a teenager with exams coming up and doesn't have the means to easily travel.

So Doc Ock returns to New York, deciding to use Betty Brant as bait. He invades the Bugle offices just as Peter happens to be there. I'm going to call this time #7 trouble coincidentally finds Peter, even though it's slightly less coincidental as Doc and Betty had established dealing. But I didn't count last issue so the fact that Peter's love interest is involved with our maniacal doctor at all is a bit coincidental. I'll count this at 7.

Dr. Octopus kidnaps Betty, telling Jameson to send Spider-Man and a photographer after him. Jameson sends Peter. Peter worries how he can both be Spider-Man and photographing the fight at the same time. An odd concern, given that that seems to be his modus operandi. Jameson decides to go as well to make sure Parker doesn't botch things. That could lead to concern for Peter.

Meanwhile, Spider-Man develops the flu. Latest in a series of mundane problems like you or I could face getting in the way of our hero.

Due to his illness, his spider-strength fails him and Dr. Octopus beats him easily. Dr. Octopus unmasks Spider-Man in front of Betty and Jameson! Just like the cover promised! But these sensationalised covers never deliver! But this one did. However, do to his poor showing as Spider-Man, everyone assumes Peter is not the real Spider-Man, but had disguised himself thusly to get pictures.

At school the next day, his virus gone, Liz is impressed by him and thinks he's a hero. Flash makes fun of him for trying to impersonate Spider-Man (nobody pointing out how similar this is to when Doom captured Flash). Liz gets defensive of Peter and dumps Flash. Good for her!

Spider-Man saves the day after a pretty cool battle that involves wild beasts set loose and ends in a burning building full of sculptures of greek gods.

We then get a happy ending for Spider-Man and an increase in confidence on Peter's part. First of all, he'll make plenty of money off the pictures of the fight. And Liz, who he'd once pined over, asks him to a party, but he turns her down claiming he has a date with Betty even though she doesn't know it! Now that's confidence! He walks off laughing at both her and Flash. Liz isn't upset by this, feeling instead guilty over the way they've always treated Peter.

While this issue seemed to focus more on action than anything, and very dynamically presented action, the character growth in Peter and Liz results directly from the action. So the issue manages to both tell an exciting story and move its characters forward. Makes it good in my book. Plus the unmasking scene was cool.

Lone Ranger

01-19-2007, 09:30 AM

I don't usually comment on the art as I don't feel particularly qualified too. But, the first 11 issues did not satisfy me. There was a collection of images and poses which have become iconic. And the sheer variety and distinctiveness of the positions he creates for Spider-Man are quite impressive. But there has been a stiltedness to it that put me off a bit. Somehow, it changes 180 degrees with this particular issue. Almost any page evidences this. In particular pages 7-8,11-12, and 16. Suddenly I feel like I'm looking at the greatest artist in comics. Is this just me, or do others feel there is a sharp increase in quality?

I don't think that you are alone. In my opinion, it took Ditko a little while to figure out how precisely how things should flow for Spidey. This in understandable as he was breaking new ground here in many ways - the energy is much more kinetic here than in the typical superhero book of the day. In terms of the art improving as the series rolls along, I think that others feel the same way, but I don't know the consensus turning point. My guess is that it would be somewhere around issue #12.

For my money, the art getting better and better through the teens, culminating with the Scorpion issue (#20).

Chris N

01-20-2007, 01:09 AM

Amazing Spider-Man #13

The splash page advertises the issue and shows us that Spidey is going to rob a bank. More likely he is going to be framed for robbing a bank or falsely accused of it at any rate. Because that's just the type of thing that happens to our wall-crawling hero in almost every issue it seems like.

It's not surprising that everybody in town is quick to believe Spider-Man is guilty of the crimes he gets accused of. It is surprising that Peter himself takes the idea seriously, fearing he's become a split personality. He's quite certain of his conclusion because nobody else could shoot webs or climb walls like he does, but the criminal did! Now... he lives in a world where every day a new super-villain with crazy powers emerges. The web shooters were just something he, a teenager built. Is it that shocking to think somebody else could have made something resembling them? A bit egotistical, that seems. And to suggest that nobody can scale walls when he's met people who can fly, turn to sand, etc. etc. I don't know. Assuming I had commited the crimes I was accused of would not be my first assumption.

So, we see Spider-Man accused of a crime again. Then Aunt May reminds him how low their savings account is and that it's getting harder to pay the mortgage. There is a pattern to our hero's life.

He decides to seek out a shrink, which is cool, but changes his mind for fear of revealing his secret identity. Which is too bad. A psychiatric evaluation of Peter may have been interesting.

We see more of Liz giving Flash the cold shoulder to pay attention to Peter. He muses that he once had no girls, and Liz wouldn't talk to him, but now he has Betty and suddenly Liz is interested. But isn't that the way it always works?

Meanwhile, the mysterious Mysterio publicly challenges Spider-Man and defeats him readily in a pretty darn cool battle where Mysterio is revealed to have mysterious powers and is able to prevent Spider-Man from using all of his. How he does this is a mystery. But Spider-Man is easily defeated in his first battle with this mysterious new foe. Having beaten Spider-Man, Jameson declares Mysterio a hero, calling him a "real crimefighter". Now, I realise Jonah had a particular distaste for Spider-Man, but I would have assumed it extended to masked vigilantes with powers in general. Is the fact that this mysterious new vigilante defeated Spider-Man really all that matters to Jonah? To be fair, Mysterio does promise to reveal his identity in an exclusive interview eventually. Maybe that softens Jameson up.

In their next encounter, Mysterio decides it's a good idea, after knocking Spider-Man down, to reveal his identity and plans and explain how he framed Spider-Man. Spider-Man records all this. This is a bit of a cliche move for a super-villain, but not one we've seen yet in Amazing Spider-Man. It doesn't entirely not make sense, even though it does prove to be his downfall. But he's both insane and arrogant. And he'd accomplised things that took some doing and some cleverness. It's not that unnatural to want to brag about it. Spider-Man is the only person he really could tell, anyways.

The final battle occurs on the set of space adventure movie, allowing them to fight amongst the planets and stars. Spider-Man wins and is redeemed.

While Mysterio is a cool villain and a worthy addition the rogue's gallery, little new is added this issue. Spider-Man has the standard two battles with the villain, winning at the end. Jonah is quick to jump on calling Spider-Man a villain and the public is quick to agree. But Spider-Man beats the bad guy and clears his name in the end. Flash makes fun of Peter some. Liz flirts with him some more. His relationship with Betty remains at an awkward stand-still. Jameson is again embarrassed when he is proven wrong. Peter has financial worries which are resolved by taking pictures of Spidey's battle with the villain. This issue is essentially a recap of everything that's become par for the course.

But we get a great new villain out of it. Really, all of Spider-Man's villains up until this point have been excellent (except maybe the tinkerer). Most of the other Marvel heroes have been lucky to get out one or two great foes so far. Spider-Man has at least six first class ones. Looks like we'll meet a new one next issue, too. Wonder if he'll be interesting. The Green Goblin? We'll have to wait and see!

Chris N

01-20-2007, 01:11 AM

Amazing Spider-Man #14

In terms of dynamic action, this issue has everything. We see the Enforcers returns (sans Big Man), meet a new super-villain, the Green Goblin, and it guest stars the Incredible Hulk.

The first panel introduces our villain working on his "flying broomstick". I'd have come up with a better name. That's what I would call his glider to make fun of it. The panel is actually a great shot with the goblin costume in the foreground and the villain himself in civvies in the background. It is perhaps notable that his face is shadowed.

We then see him meet with the Enforcers, who have also served their time in prison. Then Green Goblin meets a movie director promising to deliver him the real Spider-Man for a film.

Just before, there's a line from the director I'll quote. He'd has a successful movie, The Nameless Thing from the Black Lagoon in the Murky Swamp and wants to make another success. I have it! he exclaims. I'll change the title and release the same movie again! I'll call it the "Unknown Thing" instead of the "Nameless Thing"! It'll make millions! Funny little commentary on originality in the creative industry and perhaps on what the public demands.

Green Goblin convinces Spider-Man to star in a movie for $50,000. I feel like Peter's tried being a celebrity before with his powers and it's gone poorly. Maybe this time'll go better. From a modern perspective, it's funny that one of Spider-Man's conditions is not wanting to have phony romance rumours with one of the starlets. Nice to see the entertainment industry then is similar to now in that regard.

So anyways, Spider-Man goes to California to make his movie. The Enforcers are there but Spider-Man assumes they're actors with really good make-up. I here remind the audience that he is a genius. Though scientific know-how doesn't always go hand-in-hand with common sense.

So it turns out this was all part of a trap on the Goblin's part. If all he wanted to do was lure Spider-Man somewhere, it seems like there are much easier ways to accomplish it without going all the way to California and getting a movie studio involved. Elaborate plan for a simple result. Anyways, a big fight ensues which ends with Spider-Man trapped in a cave where Hulk was resting. This leads to a fight between Hulk and Spider-Man, two of Marvel's most misunderstood heroes. Spider-Man escapes the cave and wins the day, though Green Goblin escapes.

This issue had a lot of enemies, but accomplished little. They are attempting to set up something with the Green Goblin by keeping his identity secret, but as of this issue, he seems like the least compelling foe to date. Goofy costume. Dumb gimmicks for powers. Inane plan. No obvious motive for wanting to go to all this trouble to catch Spider-Man. Made for a boring issue.

We also see more of the same Liz/Flash drama; she has evolved to appreciate Peter's brains, being too mature for jocks like Flash these days. But this issue reveals nothing new about the situation. Just reiterates where we are. Betty has a couple moments, but she is somewhat jealous of Peter going to California where there are super-models. Less interesting concerns than what had been plaguing her in the past. And just narrowing her down to more of a stereotypical girl. Overall, I'm not the biggest fan of this issue. I think they were going for the "event" issue with super-villains and guest stars galore. But it wasn't exciting enough for that to work. Especially when contrasted with his recent battles with Mysterio and Dr. Octopus.

Chris N

01-21-2007, 12:06 AM

Tales to Astonish #57

Egghead tricks Giant-Man and Wasp into thinking Spider-Man is a bad guy and out to attack them. I'm going to start keeping count of how many times Spider-Man has been framed, because such things amuse me. I'm going to call this #4 (Chameleon, some random criminals over in Strange Tales, Mysterio, and now this)

So this falls under the standard header of people being ready to assume the worst about Spider-Man. A fight between Giant Man and Spider-Man breaks out. Wasp tries to get them to be reasonable. Finally, ants stumble on to Egghead's plan and alert Giant Man. Smart ants. In the end, Spider-Man and Giant Man team up to stop Egghead. I don't have many comments about the above.

What doesn't sit right with me is the end. It's a point that seems a bit silly to me but gets harped on. Wasp feels particularly hostile towards Spider-Man and thinks to herself that it may be because spiders and wasps are natural enemies. Something about them assuming aspects of the personalities of the creatures of their namesakes seems off. But Spider-Man mentions being "red" around the Wasp. Hank also assumes its his natural instinct as a spider. Wasp and Spider-Man are then particularly rude and insulting to each other. In fact, I'd assume there was sexual tension at the root. Then Giant Man repeats the same phrase that Wasp had thought, "spiders and wasps are natural enemies", in bemoaning why it would be hard to be allied with Spider-Man. Something about the leaps in logic about both their powers everybody is making just does not sit well with me. Ah well. Let's move on.

Amazing Spider-Man #15

We see Chameleon has returned to America. He's gone from being a Soviet spy to robbing banks. Meh.

Realising Spider-Man makes crime difficult, he calls upon his old friend Kraven the Hunter. Kraven does not seem to be a villain, just a hunter. And not a bad game hunter, as he wrestles the beasts with his bare hands. He seems excited to hunt the most dangerous game of all-- Spider-Man. Vaguely reminiscient of The Most Dangerous Game. Strangely enough, upon hearing this, Jameson is not excited but rather suggests it may be illegal. Why it's so different than Mysterio going after Spider-Man in JJ's mind, I don't know.

Meanwhile, Liz pours attention on Peter, making both Betty and Flash jealous. I feel like Betty deserves more of a role than the nonstop jealous streak we've seen these past couple issues. This Liz/Flash/Betty/Peter love quadrilateral has already been established.

A great panel with Peter bemoaning his lot in life as the only adventurer who's life seems to always suck as a street sweeper shoos him out of the way.

We learn Kraven has super strength and speed derived from a potion stolen from a witch doctor. The first real presence of the supernatural in a book that had thus far used science as its "magic".

As is typical, Spider-Man's first fight with Kraven is indecisive, but ends with Spider-Man drugged by Kraven. That craven coward!

Meanwhile, Aunt May arranges a blind date for Peter with the niece of her friend Mrs. Watson. She seems to think it's time for Peter to start looking for someone who'll make a good housewife. Can't he finish high school first? And does she not know about Betty, or does she think Betty would make a poor wife?

We see a bit of an explanation of Jameson's earlier words. He's quite happy to have Kraven take down Spider-Man, but insists it be done within the law. How do you assault somebody in a lawful way?

We once again see Spider-Man searching for Kraven, counting on his spider sense to tingle when he gets close. How does it know who he's looking for? Can he find anybody this way? Only villains? Will it tingle especially for Kraven or could any criminal he approaches also set it off? None of this is clear.

Chameleon poses as Kraven as part of an attempt to trap Spider-Man.

Spider-Man gets caught in a net. His plan to free himself is based on the idea that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. The narration revealing this is accompanied by a picture of a chain breaking. Interesting use of the graphic story-telling. Though, from my perspective, completely unnecessary. The picture revealed nothing the narration didn't. Either one would have sufficed.

Spider-Man, using his wits, wins his second fight with Kraven. He and the Chameleon both get deported. It's not clear what either had done wrong. If it's just attacking Spider-Man, that was Kraven's announced intention all along, and nobody seemed to mind. Chameleon had been planning robberies, but we never saw him commit one. We know he hadn't been implicated in anything prior as JJJ points out nobody knew he was back in the country. Kraven plans to train and then resume the hunt another day.

So what I miss is the development of Peter's character. It was at first the primary focus it seemed, but the last issue it took center stage was #9 against Electro. Important moments in his development have happened, in particular the death of Betty's brother. But each issue I'm hoping not only to see Spider-Man beat a villain but also to learn something more about Peter, or perhaps watch Peter learn something. I feel this has fallen out of focus a bit. Though we do get one page of Peter Parker drama at the end. But I'd like somebody to explain this because it isn't quite computing in my brain.

Betty's been jealous of Liz, who seems to have developed a crush on Peter. Aunt May set up a blind date for Peter with Mrs. Watson's niece. Peter accepted. I guess you don't say no to Aunt May. Betty asks Peter if he can hang out that night. Peter has to say he's busy but doesn't want to tell her about his blind date. She assumes he's standing her up for Liz and gets huffy.

That's the situation. This is what Peter thinks: Just my luck! She thinks I'm cold-shouldering her for a date with Liz! Poor Betty-- If only I could explain...

I want to consider this. If he was turning her down to go be Spider-Man, such thoughts would be perfectly understandable. But he's not. He's going on a date. And doesn't want to tell her. I mean, this is his fault. It's not really that she doesn't understand. If she knew he was on a date with some other girl and not Liz, would she feel better about it? Please explain Peter's reaction. What he could do is be honest with her and explain it's a favor to his aunt and that the girl is probably ugly. If he doesn't want to be honest, it's his own fault for what she thinks and how she reacts. It's not like this is something he has to keep secret, like Spidey stuff would be. I don't think he has any cause to blame this one on his rotten luck. That's my two cents.

But then Mrs. Watson's niece cancels so he immediately calls Betty, who is still angry and won't talk to him. So he calls Liz! No wonder Betty's upset with him! The bastard! But Liz is out dancing with Flash. Peter is lonely and upset. The end.

Chris N

01-21-2007, 04:17 PM

Amazing Spider-Man #16

Spider-Man has met the Fantastic Four, Iron Man, Hulk, and Giant Man. Who's next, I wonder? Looks like... Daredevil, the Man Without Fear! And against a villain borrowed from the Incredible Hulk!

The Ringmaster's modus operandi is to put on a circus, get the whole town to come (good marketing, I guess) and then hypnotise everybody so it's easy to rob the town. His schemes were recently fouled up by hypnotising Rick Jones whose mental link the Hulk ended up ruining Ringmaster's day. Ringmaster was then taken to jail by the FBI. His plans worked well in small towns. Now he's going to return and try again in New York; we'll have to see how that works. Ignoring why he's not in jail, shouldn't the FBI now be on to him, as they had before caught onto him and arrested him. If he's on parole, you'd think they'd be paying attention when he opens a new circus. A well-advertised circus in New York city isn't exactly him hiding. I don't get why he hasn't attracted the attention of the FBI. Best not to think about it.

We open if Aunt May once again pestering Pete to agree to a blind date with Mrs. Watson's niece, who we learn is named Mary Jane. Peter tries to explain he has a girlfriend, but it doesn't help. He leaves to Aunt May's reminders to dress warmly.

We then see him stumble across a burglary and one of the reasons people complain about thought balloons. He thinks, Four shady-looking characters, racing out of the rear of that store...carrying moneybags! These thoughts are set against a picture of just that. Clearly the picture conveyed the point effectively enough, in which case the words did nothing but distract. But we have often seen thought balloons put to good use in Spider-Man. Some inner turmoil is more effectively conveyed through language. Words have their place. As do pictures. Comics are about using both forms of communication to their fullest. But that type of panel is what people who hate thought bubbles commonly point to.

Anyways, Spider-Man saves a helpless blind man from these criminals. We then learn the blind man may not be so helpless! For he is actually Matt Murdock, Daredevil! We then get a page of Daredevil talking to himself summarising his powers, which I'll assume we're all familiar with here.

Ringmaster pretends Spider-Man will be at his show to lure people into coming. This makes Matt Murdock interested to go. Peter reads this and figures it's an invitation for him to actually come, and perhaps help his reputation a bit,

Jonah has decided that he doesn't want any more pictures of Spider-Man. Maybe Spider-Man just wants publicity and attention, and if Jonah ignores him and stops writing about him, maybe he'll go away. Betty sees Peter with a circus ticket and again goes into jealous-mode, assuming he's taking another girl. This time he can't tell her the truth, that he's going as Spider-Man! This time, Betty's being upset was a little more well-founded, as was Peter's excuse for hiding the truth from her. The scene at the end of last issue was harder to excuse.

This time, Ringmaster just plans to rob the audience. Like a circus doesn't do that anyway with its prices for concessions and souvenirs! He hypnotises everybody, including Spider-Man. Everybody who can see at least...

Since Spider-Man is hypnotised, he is made to fight Daredevil. DD actually has a clever plan, taking advantage of the fact that Spider-Man can't think for himself. Ringmaster had commanded Spider-Man to save him from Daredevil. So DD could make Spider-Man not attack him by no longer acting like a threat to Ringmaster! Daredevil frees Spider-Man from Ringmaster's control by stealing his hat. They then team up. The theme of heroes battling each other first then teaming up is the formula that tends to be repeated, even just within Spider-Man's adventures. We saw the same with Human Torch and Giant Man.

Daredevil decides to change back to civvies and resume his seat in the audience, even though there are many members of the Circus of Crime left. He trusts Spider-Man's abilities.

My complaint remains the same, though it's not so much a complaint as a preference to the earlier issues. But the battles with Vulture, Dr. Octopus, Sandman, Living Brain, and Electro were as much about Peter as Spider-Man. In fact, we saw how one life influenced the other and they were essentially one. Lately, Spider-Man and Peter Parker have been very separate. Spider-Man had a battle to fight and Peter has life problems. Spider-Man's battle takes about 19 pages of story, with only a couple pages full of panels on Peter. And the problems are just reiterations of previously established issues. Betty's jealousy, May's nagging, money problems, etc., each given a panel's worth of attention, just to remind us they're there. I look forward to a return of seeing that Peter really is Spider-Man, whether than the story being the adventures of Spider-Man with an interlude about Peter Parker.

Sophisticated_Gamer

01-21-2007, 11:10 PM

Hey! Can someone please email me when we get to book to in Essential Spider Man series, cause it's the only thing i can find so far!

Chris N

01-21-2007, 11:25 PM

Hey! Can someone please email me when we get to book to in Essential Spider Man series, cause it's the only thing i can find so far!

That sucks.

I'll do so if I can remember.

Sophisticated_Gamer

01-21-2007, 11:33 PM

thx! Ya, I wish i could read up but i just can't find it...but if i am ever at borders, i will read it as long as i can, and eat some cheese cake :D

Chris N

01-24-2007, 09:22 PM

I'm once again a few days behind. Gilda had been gone a while but seems to be back. But her life is busy now and I don't know yet if she'll want to rejoin or when. I might hold off a little while in case she's interested to catch up one of these days.

sabongero

05-25-2007, 01:48 AM

I just came across this thread. I sincerely hope that coke & comics will post here again and do some updates.

It is very refreshing to have modern reviews of classic tales.

Chris N

05-26-2007, 02:44 AM

I just came across this thread. I sincerely hope that coke & comics will post here again and do some updates.

It is very refreshing to have modern reviews of classic tales.

I can't turn down a request.

I slowed it down hoping Gilda would return and then ended up letting it fall completely. But I don't mind picking up where we left off. Especially as I just got my nifty Ditko Omnibus in the mail.

I'll start again in a couple days. Anybody who wishes to play along is encouraged to do so. I'll even happily wait for people to catch up to where we left off.

Looks like the next comic is Amazing Spider-Man annual #1. Followed by Issue 17.

See ya soon, true believers!

sabongero

05-27-2007, 06:43 PM

Thanks coke and comics. I look forward to your posts.

Gilda Dent

05-27-2007, 07:00 PM

I apologize for letting this die so soon after starting it. In the space of less than two months, my family went from two people with no kids at home to six people with three kids, and I had considerably less time for this.

C & C is welcome to continue posting reviews. His were better than mine anyway.

Chris N

05-28-2007, 12:28 AM

As promised:

Amazing Spider-Man Annual 1

In which 6 of Spidey's deadliest foes team up as the Sinister Six to battle Spidey at once! (Except they still attack one-by-one) Apparently all these people have put aside previous goals and decided revenge on Spider-Man is the most important thing to them.

Unfortunately, Chameleon, Lizard, Green Goblin and the Enforcers weren't available. Nor was the Living Brain. He's met a lotta villains in 15 issues. Mostly cooler than that Owl character over in Daredevil.

In the beginning, we see Doc Ock's arms were surgically removed, but he now has a telepathic link to them, an interesting expansion on the original idea.

We see Peter has learned to stand up for himself when Flash tries to pick a fight and Peter responds with insults. He's learned not to be a wimp, but not yet to realise he's too powerful to fight high school kids and should probably walk away! Of course Flash should also have learned his lesson after that boxing match...

The story features Spider-Man reflecting on his guilt over Uncle Ben's death and how he sometimes sees his powers as a curse. He immediately seems to lose his powers (we learn later it was all in his head; he just needs a strong, clear focus on what he wants). But when Aunt May and Betty Brant are kidnapped, he decides to go into battle even without his powers. The type of melodramatic moment I have a personal affection for: And if this is to be my finish.. at least I'll face it... like a man!

Which reminds me: Spider-Man has a secret identity in part to protect those close to him. It doesn't seem to work.

Human Torch offers to help him rescue Betty. He turns him down, saying that this fight is personal! Y'know, isn't Betty's safety more important than his ego? I mean... responsibility? Remember the lesson? Re-spon-si-bi-li-ty.

In what I consider one of the funniest moments of the series yet, JJJ talks to a spider, hoping it can get a message to Spider-Man!

And Aunt May of course finds Dr. Octopus to be a perfect gentlemen. She is quite taken with him and doesn't seem to realise she's been kidnapped. Their taking the senile-old-woman angle a bit far methinks.

The issue's main purpose is action as Spidey fights the villains one by one. I still maintain less appreciation for such things than I perhaps should. It's clearly a big focus of the series, but the actual battles scenes are always, always the least interesting part. I prefer the associated melodrama, maybe. However, Ditko's really come into his own, and each villain gets an amazing splash page featuring action against Spidey, which is pretty... well, cool.

He battles Dr. Octopus in a giant fishbowl...

...

...

This issue is truly special as there's lots of other features: bios on friends and allies, secrets of his powers, and a short story featuring Stan and Steve working on Spider-Man. Wouldv'e been cooler if it was the story of Ditko drawing this story, the story of Ditko drawing this story... Quite funny.

Take note rumblers! Spider-Man is less strong than Thor, Hulk, and Thing.

We get what I consider a classic image displaying his powers. Is this the first time we see it? It's where it's one big panel which lots of images of Spidey, each from moments in the past, to chart the path of his leap, with the biggest and most detailed at the forefront!

I'm still curious about his spider sense. Here we see it reacts to anything "out of the ordinary" and like a "radar unit". In the issue he deteceted an aura of villainy (it was the Sandman in a trenchcoat)

The other thing this issue had was cameos. Lots and lots of unneeded cameos.

Thor flies by to no real end, except an editorial note that "Thor appears every month in Journey Into Mystery"!. Ditto Dr. Strange. FF. Giant Man and Wasp. Avengers. X-Men. Iron Man.

Let me pause here to discuss continuity. Been thinking of starting a thread on the C-word, actually. Like it or not, a big part of Spider-Man story is that it takes place in the Marvel Universe. His relationship to the hero community in general his friendship with the Human Torch are big parts of the series. Have been since he tried to join the FF is issue 1.

I like continuity. I in fact love the idea of a "Marvel Universe", the consistency of which being what I refer to as continuity. It's what drew me in in the first place. A rich tapestry of characters to draw from, a well-realised background against which to set the story. And I love seeing Spidey as part of a larger story.

Continuity has a bad rep, because aside from the strengths I find inherent in it, it has an obvious strength in marketing. It can be used for advertising. Which is what happened in this issue. Pretty blatantly. And pretty badly. Nothing was added to the story by random meaningless appearances by a lot of heroes. I'm not talking about when Torch offers to help; that's a part of the story and an interesting moment. I'm talking about when Dr. Strange happens to be strolling along in astral form while Pete fights Flash. He was just there, with a note to check out Strange Tales.

And you know what they could have done? Advertised after. They had lots of bios. Throw in "Here are some other faces around the Marvel Universe" with them. That would accomplish the same purpose without interrupting the story.

And it's because it gets used as a marketing tool rather than to enhance stories, continuity gets a bad rep. So my opinion is: Cheers to having a world of other stories to interact with. Jeers to using it solely to advertise.

Chris N

05-28-2007, 12:45 AM

Chris N

05-28-2007, 12:55 AM

BizarroBeachHead

05-28-2007, 06:37 AM

Or perhaps he never intended it to be clear. Here is a code of morals this man adopts. Here are the positives and negatives. And that that's why it's interesting. That we have to decide for ourselves how conflicting obligations should be balanced, how much of ourselves we should give up for others, how much is too much. Finding balance is tricky.

I can't comment on Ditko's opinions, but that is exactly how I always understood it.

As you said, when he was living for himself, Uncle Ben died. But then after learning his lesson, Peter's life is perpetually miserable due to his unmitigated selflessness. Those are two very big extremes.

By the way, this thread is pretty interesting as I've just recently started reading these comics for the first time(finally). I hope to see it continue.

Gilda Dent

05-28-2007, 02:37 PM

The issue's main purpose is action as Spidey fights the villains one by one. I still maintain less appreciation for such things than I perhaps should. It's clearly a big focus of the series, but the actual battles scenes are always, always the least interesting part. I prefer the associated melodrama, maybe. However, Ditko's really come into his own, and each villain gets an amazing splash page featuring action against Spidey, which is pretty... well, cool.

This is the great appeal of these early Spider-Man stories and others where he's written well. You have to have both elements, the super-heroing and the melodrama for it to really work. Being Spider-Man causes problems in Peter's personal life. Peter's responsibilities in his personal life cause problems for Spider-Man's being an effective superhero. There's a tension between the two that makes each element work better than it otherwise would.

As to Ditko's moral philosophy showing up in the stories, I really don't see it. Peter letting the thief go by because there's nothing in it for him is exactly in line with Randian philosophy. Peter's inherent altruism is also not in line with Randian morals. He feels a responsibility to protect and serve the people in the city where he lives that often comes at his own personal expense.

Which isn't to say that there isn't anything in it for him. Often, his main motivation for tackling some crook is to get pictures to sell to make money, but even then he's usually focused on buying medicine or paying bills. Just as often, especially with the thieves he catches, he does it because it's fun, a form of release and adventure he never gets in his regular life.

Reading how the plotting sessions went in those early Marvel days does help with understanding things. Stan Lee was writing everything then, perhaps six or seven books at this point, so the plotting chores were left mostly to the artist, within a very general framework. Romita writes in one of his introductions to the Masterworks that he was often surprised as to how Lee managed to create a plot that tied together his art sequences into a coherent story. I suspect it would be difficult for Ditko to build a moral philosophy into the pictures to a degree that it would become obvious.

Chris N

05-28-2007, 06:10 PM

Amazing Spider-Man #17

The Green Goblin returns. If you read what I had to say about issue 14, you know I thought that was one of the most ridiculous issues yet. And he hasn't improved as a villain by this issue, attacking with exploding frogs and bats, and really no apparent motive except to kill Spider-Man. The one intriguing aspect is that they're making it a point to hide his identity, always having his face covered. And he is yet to be captured. Though his plans get thwarted, he tends to get away.

We've seen a couple times before clever variations on "Spidey catches crooks" for an opening action scene. In this, the "crooks" he saw were just actors as he'd stumbled onto a movie being filmed, once again embarrassing himself.

Issues seem to divide themselves according to a fairly set formula by now. We'll see his supporting cast, whose stories unfortunately seem to advance at a slow pace. We're once again reminded Flash is Spidey's biggest fan; once again we see Johnny is a more popular super hero; we see more jealous interplay between Betty and Liz. Though that may have come to a head this issue, as Betty vows to never trust Peter again. We'll see if she means it. May gets very close to setting Peter up with Mary Jane Watson, despite Peter's protestations. Fortunately for Peter, MJ is sick at the moment.

We'll see the issue's villain scheming for a couple panels. We'll see Spider-Man reflecting on life and stopping some crooks, as mentioned above.

The thrust of the issue now will be the battle between Spidey and the villain. Here it took place in one act at a fan club meeting. Which was a good device because it allowed the supporting cast drama to occur at the same time as Flash, Liz, Betty, Jonah and the Human Torch were all present for the fight. When Torch joins in, Peter makes sure people see him out of costume there to protect his identity. The drama comes to a head at the end as Betty sees Peter and Liz and decides to give up on him, Spider-man leaves Torch alone when he learns Aunt May is in the hospital, and JJJ and everybody think Spider-Man is a coward for it.

We of course end on a dramatic panel of Peter questioning the worth of being Spider-Man. Spidey suit in the foreground as Peter looks melancholy with a shadow looming over him.

Good mixing of action elements with the character drama, but we've seen far better action with far better villains and the character drama is somewhat more of the same. No real progress is made this issue. And stagnation is not good. But we'll see what next issue bring with Betty and Pete.

Meanwhile, Spidey's villains are getting around. In Tales of Suspense #58, Kraven and Chameleon return to America but Kraven is immediately discovered and captured by Iron Man, so Chameleon manipulates Iron Man into fighting Captain America, but his plan is foiled by Giant Man and Wasp. Meanwhile, Daredevil battles Electro in Daredevil #2. Chameleon will soon be making an appearance against the Hulk in Tales to Astonish #62,63,66 The fact that we can sees villains pitted against different heroes is what I consider a good use of continuity.

benday-dot

05-28-2007, 07:22 PM

Question for any Ditko buffs reading this.

I learned long ago Ditko was Randian and felt very strongly about it. I assumed it was something developed post-Spider-Man as Spider-Man had always suggested an ethics to me that seems at odds with objectivism as I understand it. I have a good friend obsessed with Rand's ideas and we argued a lot about whether Spider-Man's message was a good one.

My understanding is limited but, to my understanding, Rand's views on morality can be summarised in her quote that man should live

Whereas in Spider-Man, we saw that living for himself led to consequences for himself, consequences that could have been averted had he acted selflessly and stopped the burglar.

But then I wonder if that was really the point? Ditko was clearly a smart man and clearly had a big hand in the shaping of the stories and themes of Spider-Man. And looking at the story through an Objectivist lens, I wonder what his purpose was.

"With great power comes great responsibility" to me is suggestive of a code of morality that applies to all of us. We have gifts, talents, etc. that we are called to live to better those around us. To me, it suggests that to do otherwise is not only not right, but in fact very wrong. Which I've come to believe. Potential squandered seems a terrible thing and apathy is truly a great evil in this world.

But then we see Spider-Man attempting to live by this philosophy and never finding happiness. In fact, his obsession with living up to the moral obligation to save people from villains he feels his powers give him often prevent him from carrying out other responsibilities. Financial responsbilities, his responsibilites as a high school student, to his job. To Aunt May. To Betty. To his friends (or those who could be). To himself.

And I wonder if Ditko was thinking this was evidence he should be living his life differently. Seeing to his own needs before the needs of others. Also a good policy. "Get your own house in order first."

Or perhaps he never intended it to be clear. Here is a code of morals this man adopts. Here are the positives and negatives. And that that's why it's interesting. That we have to decide for ourselves how conflicting obligations should be balanced, how much of ourselves we should give up for others, how much is too much. Finding balance is tricky.

I'm carrying on a bit, but I figure there are a couple Ditko buffs who are more familiar with his philosophies and work than me.

Anybody care to shed some enlightenment on the relationship between the man and the work?

It would be much obliged.

I don't think Ditko saw much tension or any sort of delicate balance involved in enveloping his Randian/objectivist precepts within the superhero mode of storytelling. Rather, I think he ever saw a life's plot as enmeshed in a series of clear and simple choices. Even after Spider-Man Ditko certainly continued to work within the superhero genre. And his clearest elucidation of Randian notions within this world comes in Mr.A.

Through the often annoying pontifications of Mr.A, as his mouthpiece, Ditko makes it absolutely clear that "success or survival at another's expense is not a price anyone can impose on others." No "satisfaction is to come through inflicting suffering on others." And rather more severely, "Cancer is a noble destoyer compared to any man who inflicts suffering on innocent lives." I suppose this is because cancer causes suffering without volition (perhaps excluding the willful assumption of a tobacco habit!). It is true that Randians abhore altruism claiming it makes people weak, and allows them to cop out on the ultimate responsiblity each person has to themselves. We ought treat people how they deserve to be treated. And each of us gets what each in turn deserves. The superhero, vigilante must act to restore a state of happiness and justice where he/she finds it upset and the innocent suffering. This beneficient state is said to be the natural one.

It could be Ditko disagreed with Stan Lee's soap opera stamp in ASM. It could be he'd argue that Spider-Man/Peter Parker really had no reason being miserable. That by being an eradicator of injustice, a man of responsiblity and rectitude he should have been happier. That he wasn't Lee might have thought as natural, as so utterly human, as inevitable.

That Spider-Man was a 100 times more exciting and interesting, and so much more seemingly invested with a tangible realism and heartfulness, than the screed-like and overly didactic Mr.A, would seem to me to prove the Lee direction as the ultimately triumphant one.

The problem with philosophies entrenched in their own dichtomies is that they sound so very fine in theory but tend to crumble amid the universal human condition.

Chris N

05-28-2007, 07:25 PM

Thanks Gilda and Benday!

I think I need to try to track down more stuff of his like Mr. A. It will make for an interesting comparison.

Chris N

05-30-2007, 01:23 AM

Amazing Spider-Man #18

The title page warns this will be unlike any Spidey story we've ever read. And it's right! For in this issue, Spidey doesn't battle a villain! (Though Sandman shows up to attack him and plenty of others make cameos) It's entirely an internal struggle for Peter Parker and the better for it.

To me, this series is and remains about battling conflicting responsibilities. And here we see his aunt needed constant attention and thus he could not spend time as Spider-Man. Moreover, he realised he couldn't risk his own life for there would be nobody to look after Aunt May. Which is very true and good of him to notice. That people depend on him, and his life matters to them as well as to himself.

Everybody in town calls Spidey a coward because they see him run away from Sandman (plus the Green Goblin last ish) and this bugs Pete a lot. A bit too much, actually. They make the conflict in this issue: Aunt May's health vs Spider-Man's ego when Aunt May's health vs. the lives Spidey could be saving would have been a more poignant conflict. That's the improvement I'd suggest, but this issue still worked for me rather well.

He was once again ready to call it quits when Aunt May recovered and gave him a nice little speech:
I'm not a quitter. A person needs gumption.. the will to live... to fight! This inspires Peter to not give up because things are hard. Which is what makes a story to me, because his character went somewhere.

In the middle, we had good character scenes with Flash who retained his loyalty to Spidey and even tried to help him out by dressing up as Spidey. Since the last time he did that, he got kidnapped by Dr. Doom, you'd think he'd have learned his lesson. Guess not.

Peter learns that Betty has moved on and sees him dating others. I suspect the soap opera with her is not yet finished, thoguh Peter's given up.

The friendship between Human Torch and Spidey has become interesting to me. We see a reference back to their first meeting place atop the Statue of Liberty and that despite their conflict, Torch respects Spidey and doesn't give up on him even though everybody else does.

Jameson is of course basking in the glow of Spider-Man's cowardice with film and newspaper specials. Proud that he was right all along. Except before he seemed on a crusade against Spider-Man for being a vigilante. Now he's going on about Spider-Man not being a vigilante and calling him a coward. Seems a bit... hypocritical and reminds me of, y'know, one hell of a lot of people.

Kirk G

05-30-2007, 03:43 PM

Ironically, this is approximately the first issue of Spider-Man that I can ever remember seeing as a kid. I recall walking into the drug store on the way home from Saturday morning bowling, and picking up various issues off the rack to kill time. I noticed right away that the same artist was drawing the girls in Spider-Man as the half-book story in Strange Tales that featured some guy in a red cape who was a magician or something. (Ditko art!)

But the thing I couldn't understand from a casual flip through, was why some spider-like character was fighting the Goblin type character, but the fire type character flew between them, interupting the fight and allowing him to escape.

YEARS LATER, I realized I had had a copy of Spider-Man in my hands, but never bought the early years. It wasn't for another year or two before I put it together that comics were continued stories that were still coming out, and began to start buying them.

Rob Allen

05-30-2007, 05:46 PM

scratchie

05-30-2007, 07:45 PM

I can't recall where or when I read this, but I think Ditko was just starting to get into Rand's objectivism in the early 60s. Some people say that you can see the increasing influence of Rand in the later Ditko issues of Spider-Man, when Steve was plotting the stories alone. Peter loses his original nerd/wimp persona and becomes more of a Randian "Hero". Disagreements with Stan over the nature of heroism were a major factor in Ditko's decision to leave Marvel in 1966.According to this guy, it wasn't the nature of heroism, but the nature of villainy:

http://www.fortunecity.com/tatooine/niven/142/politics/pol13.html

I recently posted this link over at the Comics Should Be Good forum to see if they could dig up any supporting evidence for the "Urban Legends" feature. Basically, this guy claims that Ditko (as an orthodox Randian) was philosophically opposed to the idea that a successful businessman (Norman Osborn) could be a criminal, which caused him to leave the book just when the Green Goblin's identity was about to be revealed.

Unfortunately, the author of the above-linked page doesn't provide any sort of citations to support his claim.

Chris N

05-30-2007, 11:21 PM

Amazing Spider-Man #19

The title page promises nonstop action to make up for last issue. But I counted 5 pages of character drama, which seems to be about the standard ratio. The character drama was mainly more-of-the-same, though we met the new guy Betty's seeing, one Ned Leeds and learn that she still may be carrying a bit of a torch for Peter. Peter takes her dating Ned well, a little too well for Betty's tastes.

The action came in the form of Sandman and the Enforcers capturing Human Torch than attacking Spidey. Spidey rescues Torch and they stop the bad guys together. Also felt like a bit more-of-the-same though we did see Torch and Spider-Man fouling each other up, failing to work together, which was cute. Also we saw what I consider a classic image for what as far as I noticed is the first time. With Spidey in the shadows and all the red fully visible, but none of the blue, not even outlines. I have a t-shirt like that.

As far as more continuity used as a marketing tool, Torch makes an unnecessary reference to being tired from a recent fight, with an editor's note to check out Strange Tales #127. I don't approve.

Also, Human Torch was captured by Montana lassoing him. But... does rope not, I dunno, burn? He seemed pretty helpless caught in that lasso.

The issue ended with a mysterious man spying on Peter, so we get some suspense until next time. I'm fairly indifferent to teaser endings. Not against them necessarily. And they do create anticipation.

Fairly run-of-the-mill issue is what I guess I'm trying to say.

Chris N

05-30-2007, 11:25 PM

According to this guy, it wasn't the nature of heroism, but the nature of villainy:

http://www.fortunecity.com/tatooine/niven/142/politics/pol13.html

I recently posted this link over at the Comics Should Be Good forum to see if they could dig up any supporting evidence for the "Urban Legends" feature. Basically, this guy claims that Ditko (as an orthodox Randian) was philosophically opposed to the idea that a successful businessman (Norman Osborn) could be a criminal, which caused him to leave the book just when the Green Goblin's identity was about to be revealed.

Unfortunately, the author of the above-linked page doesn't provide any sort of citations to support his claim.

I'd read that exact thing recently (probably while googling Rand and Ditko)

The story I'd always heard was that it was the identity of the Green Goblin. My recollection, without substantiation unfortunately, was slightly opposite of that.

I recall hearing Ditko wanted it to be a nameless nobody to make a point about the nature of evil and Stan disagreed, insisting it be somebody for the sake of drama.

Here they seem suggest it was Stan who had an idea who the villain should be and that Ditko didn't like making a successful businessman evil. But both versions are consistent that it was about Green Goblin, which is consistent with the fact that Green Goblin's identity was revealed right after Ditko left.

I'll be curious what Brian digs up.

Sir Tim Drake

05-31-2007, 01:01 AM

I'd read that exact thing recently (probably while googling Rand and Ditko)

The story I'd always heard was that it was the identity of the Green Goblin. My recollection, without substantiation unfortunately, was slightly opposite of that.

I recall hearing Ditko wanted it to be a nameless nobody to make a point about the nature of evil and Stan disagreed, insisting it be somebody for the sake of drama.

Here they seem suggest it was Stan who had an idea who the villain should be and that Ditko didn't like making a successful businessman evil. But both versions are consistent that it was about Green Goblin, which is consistent with the fact that Green Goblin's identity was revealed right after Ditko left.

I'll be curious what Brian digs up.

I wonder if anyone (maybe Rob Imes?) can think of any comic written by Ditko in which he used a successful businessman as a villain. If Ditko ever did create such a character, then this would be evidence against this fan's theory.

benday-dot

05-31-2007, 08:12 PM

I wonder if anyone (maybe Rob Imes?) can think of any comic written by Ditko in which he used a successful businessman as a villain. If Ditko ever did create such a character, then this would be evidence against this fan's theory.

It seems to me that too much emphasis is being put on the occupation of businessman here. It is almost extending the definition of a Randian to a priori include "the businessman." It seems slightly a hallowed roost for it. Ditko himself is an artist/writer/comic book creator, and certainly he might be counted as businessman as well, but I would venture to guess no particular vocation is what promotes the ethical system (objectivism) prescribed. Of course the problem is also with how we define "successful." Do we have in mind by successful businessman "one who makes a lot of money"? The most corrupt businessman is hardly excluded from lucre, and if monetary wealth is what is meant by successful, then this unsavoury character makes the grade. If on the other hand by successful we mean "lives according to just and good principles", and for this context let's add for emphasis "the black and white Randian code of conduct", then no villain-- businessman or mad scientist-- could be considered successful.

But I'm no Randian, and I'm certainly not Steve Ditko, so its all just speculation. I just think this businessman angle seems a little suspect. I'll throw my money with the orthodox explanation that C&C recounts.

Kirk G

05-31-2007, 10:10 PM

Chris N

06-01-2007, 01:07 AM

Amazing Spider-Man #20

We learn the mysterious man from last issue was Mac Gargan, who'd been hired by Jameson to learn Peter's connection to Spidey. But Jameson has a better idea! He'll give Gargan the powers of a Scorpion and have him defeat Spider-Man.

I suspend a lot of disbelief but the ridiculousness of the idea and the impossibility of reconciling it with Jameson's established character is too much for me. He clearly hates supowered vigilantes, yet he creates one. I accept that he'll tell Spider-Man not to be a vigilante then call him a coward when he quits. But creating the Scorpion pushed it. At least at the end he learned his lesson, after Scorpion went insane, that anybody possessing that power was a menace. So hopefully he'll never do such a thing again, despite it renewing his determination that Spider-Man must be stopped.

The character drama was minimal. Betty's new guy Ned, who's as straight an arrow as one can be is leaving for 6 months, which gives Peter hope that it's not over between him and Betty.

Mainly the focus was the battle between Spider-Man and Scorpion. They made a big deal that Scorpion was more powerful than Spider-Man, yet Spidey still beat him. It seems like he's faced even more powerful foes before though in Dr. Octopus and Sandman. Here we finally see Spidey really get beaten though; he beats Scorpion but leaves with lots of bruises and a ripped suit. The sight of a battered Spidey certainly adds to the dramatic tension.

I've heard Ditko's depiction of the action in this issue spoken of quite highly. Lone Ranger in particular had cited this one earlier in this thread. I'd be curious if anybody who finds this to be a particular high point or turning point for Ditko would care to elaborate.

Meanwhile, in Avengers #11 Kang creates a Spider-Man robot to defeat the Avengers. Not sure how mimicking Spider-Man's powers will help him beat Thor, but whatever. We are again reminded that Wasp has an instinctive hatred of Spider-Man as wasps and spiders are natural enemies.

Ha! Robot Spider-Man takes Wasp out with a web flyswatter! After robo-Spidey defeats the Avengers, the real Spider-Man shows up for a nice deus ex machina. Which gives us a good Spidey on Spidey fight. The issue actually seems to run out of time. Spidey beats the Spidey robot on the last page and there are just enough panels to show the Avengers are okay and see Kang vow to get them another day!

I'm not actually the biggest fan of the old Avengers. And this wasn't a particularly meaningful guest appearance by Spider-Man, but at least we saw him beat a guy that took out all the Avengers!

Chris N

06-01-2007, 01:09 AM

To add fuel to this discussion, I had read in a fanzine (The Unofficial Guide to SPider-Man, I think) that Ditko had intended Ned Leeds to be the Green Goblin, but Stan felt that was too many villians associated with the newsroom... after Ditko had plotted and laid the clues and this led to the about face, after issue #38... that ushered in Norman Osborn as the Goblin and John Romita Sr as artist.
(What month did Romita draw Daredevil #16 the issue where Spidey guest-stars and did Romiita know he was auditioning for the Spidey mag then?)

Ha!

That doesn't fit with either my story or the article's, really. So Ned (I'm not sure the spoilers are necessary here; and I'm not sure the rest of my post is very subtle anyway) was introduced right after the Goblin's second appearance.

So far, he seems to be a perfect gentleman. Maybe a little too perfect...

I'll pay attention for clues, though.

Daredevil 16 was 2 months before Amazing 38. If it was the audition, it was rather last minute. But then, Steve and Stan's fight may have been quite sudden!

The Norman Osborn reveal is annoying because we first meet Norman like in the previous issue or something. Whereas the Goblin mystery had already been around for 25 issues. Talking about pulling a solution out of nowhere.

Cei-U!

06-01-2007, 07:38 AM

The Norman Osborn reveal is annoying because we first meet Norman like in the previous issue or something. Whereas the Goblin mystery had already been around for 25 issues. Talking about pulling a solution out of nowhere.

Actually, Norman can be seen as an unnamed background character (in scenes set at Jonah's club) as early as #23, with further appearances in #25-27.

As for Ned being the Goblin, he was still in Europe during Gobby's appearances in #23 and 26-27 so that theory doesn't hold up. And it's strange that Ditko would want to make GG an unknown since he and Stan already went that route with Crime-Master in #26-27.

By the way, have I ever mentioned that the various Green Goblins/Hobgoblins are my least favorite (major) Spidey villains?

Cei-U!
I summon the flying broomstick!

InfoBroker

06-01-2007, 08:28 AM

re: Steve Ditko Leaving Marvel in 1966

The first time I read of the controversy of who should be the Goblin was in the the book Marvel: Five Fabulous Decades by Lee Daniels and the source he was quoting was Roy Thomas, and while it did indeed seem odd, since the Crime Master story had already unfolded, it still seemed plausible as one of the many reasons he left the series.

The introduction to the Steve Ditko Reader goes into great detail on the myths and realities of both the origin of Spider-man and Steve's departure from Marvel in early 1966, includes the Green Goblin as Norman Osborn as a part of that struggle. But it properly and fairly brings up other aspects as to why Steve left, including mentioning that Steve's main quarrel was with Goodman for not following up on promises of profit sharing and for meddling in the editorial and creative directions of the strip.

There are quotes from Stan, Steve, Ron Franz and Eric Stanton to strive to get past the myths and reflect the facts of the time as best as they could. They also properly put into perspective that many facets were in play, and that only Steve knows the full and real reasons for his leaving.

re: Rand Influences in Steve's work

It does mention the Rand influences on Steve and their blossoming influences on Steve's more personal creative work circa the mid 1960s. It make absolutely NO mention of Steve wanting Ned Leeds to be the Green Goblin. (That seems like a very heavy dose fan fairy tales to me).

As for the fan speculation that Steve didn't cotton to the idea of a "successful" businessman being corrupt --- that's a difficult hypothesis to support given the nature of his stories featuring Mr. A, Avenging World, The Question, and his revamping of the Blue Beetle. All major works of Steve Ditko's later 1960s creativity.

jb the (for an abbreviated reading you could start and stop with Mysterious Suspense #1 from 1968) ib -

InfoBroker

06-01-2007, 08:36 AM

And follow up...

The intro also has quotes from both Stan and John Romita that the two issues of DD(16&17) were indeed tryout material.

John didn't know it at the time, and in fact even when he took over the Spider-man book, he thought he was temporary assignment, and that once Steve "cooled down" he would be off Spidey and go back to doing DD.

-jb the (go read the bulletin boards page of Spider-man #38 or FF #52 to read the Stan's comments (Public in nature naturally) on Steve's departure and John taking over Spidey. It's brief but positive on both topics) ib -

Rob Allen

06-01-2007, 01:25 PM

many facets were in play, and that only Steve knows the full and real reasons for his leaving.

Thanks for posting this, JB. I was going to write something along these lines but you did even better by finding and citing good sources. The disagreement over "who is the Goblin?" was one of the factors in Steve's departure, but it wasn't the reason.

Kirk G

06-01-2007, 06:21 PM

Ha!
...
The Norman Osborn reveal is annoying because we first meet Norman like in the previous issue or something. Whereas the Goblin mystery had already been around for 25 issues. Talking about pulling a solution out of nowhere.

You can say that again.
When reading the original 40 issues, it does seem like it comes out of nowhere!
When reading the next 24 issues, look for clues that in hind sight point to Ned Leeds, vs Norman Osborn.

It appears to me that Norman was a Johnny Come Lately addition to the pack.

Stan had been working by giving the main artists (Ditko, Kirby, Heck, etc) his idea for the story in general plot... and then receiving the storyboards back, scripting them in his style. This led to some odd bounces, when he misunderstood the story as told in the pictures (Kirby), or disagreed with the direction that the artist was taking the story (Ditko) but never gave them co-plotting credit.

As for the Goblin as Ned Leeds being a fan-boy wish, I summon the first 38 issues....
Look for the development of the Goblin as the central villian of the series, not in the initial issue #14 appearance, but in every subsequent appearance, as he moves to control the MOB... and play big business villian... more and more so.

The real clincher will come in issue #38 when Peter punches out a manequin in an alleyway in anger because it grins like Ned Leeds...and never notices that it is really the grin of the Green Goblin. The point is that Ned has been set up to steal Betty away from Peter... and then to be revealed as the goblin would REALLY have fueled Ditko's sense of irony and fate. To have him come out of left field as Osborn, is just an odd bounce.

But of course, as a kid who started reading Spidey with issue #40... I grew up knowning that it was ALWAYS Normal Osborn... but looking at the first 38 issues, it is more clear that it wasn't intended to be him. Why else continue to show the goblin dressing behind that octogon sheild unless we already knew the character... and that spells Leeds...not newbe Osborn.

PS: When Osborne is sighted as an unknown background figure at the club, in what did you say... 23, 25- 26? or wherever, which re-printing are you reading... what is the hair color, the background color, the interaction with that character? Is it as obvious as Loki in the backgrounds of the recent Ultimates 2 storyline? Or is this interpretive re-coloring in the reprinting of Spidey's issues in Marvel Tales, Marvel Masterworks, or Year ONE? or is it the original issues? (I may be talking out of my hat here, but I think they may have recolored those issues upon reprinting to MAKE Osborne in the background... but I await your confirmation upon reading the next two dozen issues.

Please advise!:rolleyes:

And, yes, the publication that socked it to me with the big claim that Leeds was intended to be the Goblin WAS a fan production... albet a very professional one. I THINK it was something like "The Complete Spider-Man" or "Ultimate Spider-Man" or "Unofficial Spider-Man Handbook". There were versions for the Avengers, X-Men, Daredevil, Spidey, and then I think Marvel stepped in and started doing their own version of "The Official Handbook...." of each of these series in multiple volumes. This eventually evolved into the official Marvel Handbooks... in multiple editions and revisions. But I still have those first four fanzine-type publications on newsprint somewhere. I don't know how many were actually produced, or why they stopped ("Cease and decist?") but they were GREAT for understanding the whole series, especially if you didn't own them all or missed key issues or long runs.

Cei-U!

06-01-2007, 06:47 PM

PS: When Osborne is sighted as an unknown background figure at the club, in what did you say... 23, 25- 26? or wherever, which re-printing are you reading... what is the hair color, the background color, the interaction with that character? Is it as obvious as Loki in the backgrounds of the recent Ultimates 2 storyline? Or is this interpretive re-coloring in the reprinting of Spidey's issues in Marvel Tales, Marvel Masterworks, or Year ONE? or is it the original issues? (I may be talking out of my hat here, but I think they may have recolored those issues upon reprinting to MAKE Osborne in the background... but I await your confirmation upon reading the next two dozen issues.

Osborn isn't identified by name in those early appearances nor does he do anything significant beyond listening to Jonah pontificate (i.e., no dialogue) and, no, there was no "interpretive recoloring" after the fact. Ditko drew this particular background figure distinctively enough that, even as a child of 7 reading the original issues, I noticed him popping up again and again. And when Harry showed up, I immediately noticed the family resemblance. Make of that what you will.

Cei-U!
I summon the curious coincidence!

Chris N

06-01-2007, 11:05 PM

Amazing Spider-Man #21

In this issue, Spider-Man borrows a villain from the Human Torch- the Beetle! And frankly, the beetle is kinda goofy looking. The main theme of the issue is contrasting Spidey's life to Torch's, which we've seen before, but this issue does it well. A crowd cheers for the Torch as he passes, the same crowd that just ran in fear from Spidey. Peter's relationship with Betty is failing while things for Johnny and Doris go well. And overall, everything seems to go right for the Torch, but wrong for our hero.

However, Doris does find Peter to be quite the fascinating gentleman, and points to him as an example of what Johnny should be more like. Fat lotta good that does Peter though. In fact, it does the opposite of good when Betty gets the impression that Peter is dating Doris and is upset. Even though she's been seeing Ned. Women. Speaking of them, Doris is a bit miffed about Johnny always running off to play Torch and makes him promise not to use his flame for a day. But changes her mind when she's the one in danger, of course. Typical.

The issue begins with Beetle being let out of prison and his armour being returned to him. He muses about how it's not a crime to own a suit of armour. But, if the armour is a dangerous weapon, it bloody well should be. If it's something he's used to cause harm in the past, I don't think they have to give it back to him. Do they? If it is okay, the Congress of the MU should probably be pumping out some laws appropriate to the new breed of villain. Forcing people to need a license to own suits of armour, or flying vulture outfits, etc. Just my thoughts.

Chris N

06-03-2007, 07:13 PM

A day late, but...

Amazing Spider-Man #22

The Circus of Crime returns, except they're through with the circus routine, so they throw Ringmaster out of the gang and rename themselves the Masters of Menace. After making fun of Avengers for being a corny name. Very little of Peter Parker, though we see he and Betty seem to be getting on again. Mostly the battle against the Masters of Menace.

The unique part being when he faced off against Princess Python, who's introduced in this issue. Guess he hasn't had to battle a woman yet.

Of course he can't fight a woman. And of course her strategy is to attempt to seduce him. It doesn't work. But he still can't fight her. A bit trapped there.

Not too much to report on this comic, though.

Chris N

06-03-2007, 09:39 PM

And since yesterday was skipped, we get another today:

Amazing Spider-Man #23

Here we meet crimelord Lucky Lobo as Green Goblin attempts to take over his mob as the first step to becoming King of crime! To this end, he helps the police get the evidence to put Lucky Lobo behind bars, making everybody suspect he's a hero. His plan backfires when the entire gang gets arrested, leaving him nothing to take over!

Thankfully one of Lobo's stooges points out how corny his suit is.

We see in this issue that Foswell, the former Big Man returns and is rehired by the Daily Bugle. He may be connected to the Green Goblin. And Peter fears that he's clever and may figure out Peter's secret.

We see Peter once again getting concerned over his relationship with Betty. They seemed okay last issue but now Ned has written her a letter! This makes Peter jealous, espcially when Betty won't tell him about it. But we learn via thought bubbles that she simply forgot to mention the letter. Go thought bubbles! People these days seem to hate 'em, but they certainly have usefulness.

People are correct that they are trying to make Goblin his archenemy, despite his ridiclousness in his first appearance. First we notice he's trying to become crimelord, a kingpin if you will. They once again make a point to notice his identity is mysterious. And he's the one villain Spidey's as of yet unable to stop. He's yet to be caught. So, archnemesis material.

And, what do you know. In the background one panel, there's a red-haired gentleman with a unique haircut in the background of Jameson's club. Similar to what Cei-U was describing. We fist see this gentleman in an issue featuring the return of the Green Goblin. Seems Cei-U was right after all...

The other thing this issue offers that we used to see a lot of is mundane things affecting his life as Spider-Man. These have been increasingly less frequent but this issue we see: him wanting to change to Spider-Man but being unable to because he left his costume at home to dry; needing to stop in the middle of battle, and lock himself in a room to call Aunt May and tell her he'll be late for dinner; him being unable to beat Gobbie by running out of web fluid. Little details that add a lot to the story.

Makes for a good issue. Lots of things going on; Spidey related rather than Peter related, but good stuff.

Cei-U!

06-03-2007, 09:48 PM

And, what do you know. In the background one panel, there's a red-haired gentleman with a unique haircut in the background of Jameson's club. Similar to what Cei-U was describing. We fist see this gentleman in an issue featuring the return of the Green Goblin. Seems Cei-U was right after all...

Silly c&c. I'm always right."

Cei-U!
I summon the infabbil... infallu... always rightness!

*Except, of course, when I'm wrong.

Lone Ranger

06-04-2007, 07:56 AM

Amazing Spider-Man #18

TEverybody in town calls Spidey a coward because they see him run away from Sandman (plus the Green Goblin last ish) and this bugs Pete a lot. A bit too much, actually.

The treatment of Spidey/Peter's emotions in these early issues is always interesting, if sometimes a little off the mark. Lee and Ditko were obviously trying to seeing the world through the eye's of a teenager, and the result was some pretty severe mood swing and a healthy amount of irrational decision making.

Sometimes this works quite well (Peter was really tempted to pop Flash right in the mouth in some of the early issues) and sometimes it's a bit awkward (the 'big question' stuff like we seen in this issue). No comic book creators had ever really done this type of stuff as a superhero with self-doubt or too much pride never appeared in the Four Colour world.

I give them an 'A' for effort but only a 'B' for execution.

Chris N

06-06-2007, 01:14 AM

A day late, again, but...

Amazing Spider-Man #24

Pretty good issue as Spider-Man thinks he's going insane, and just may be!

Standard issues come up revolving around Betty, Liz, financial problems, JJ, and Flash. But presented well. Liz gets Peter to help her study, to the dismay of Flash. Peter likes the idea of making Betty jealous, given how he feels about her writing letters to Ned. JJJ continues his crusade against Spider-Man (more on that in a bit) and Flash tells him off about it! More of the same and nothing gets resolved but they at least note that at the end:

Nothing conclusive has been settled between Peter and Betty... or between our hero and Flash Thompson... or indeed between anyone! And yet, isn't that the way of life

A psychologist explains to Jonah that Spider-Man cannot decide if he wants to be a spider or a man, and the split must be driving him insane. He sounds like a bit of a quack to me, frankly. But Jameson likes the idea of a doctor certifying Spidey as insane and prints the story. Peter believes it and is caused anxiety, and then starts to hallucinate a lot. (I would find this coincidental except his anxiety over going insane could have triggered the breakdown). It's come up recently elsewhere on these boards that a man is incapable of determining his own sanity. So perhaps Peter has cause for concern. But he doesn't. All a scheme by Mysterio to unmask Spider-Man. Coincidentally, it's Jonah who accidentally fouls up Mysterio's plot.

Jonah's plan in this issue is to interview the public for their opinions on Spider-Man rather than keep writing scathing editorials himself. He conducts an absolutely unbiased, impartial newspaper survey which asks questions like Why do you hate Spider-Man?

How old is the "Have you stopped beating your wife question?" I'll assume Spider-Man can't be credited with originating the concept.

Flash calls them on the yellow journalism, though, bringing a reporter to task for only recording the negative opinions. Go Flash.

I liked best the early issues where I felt like we were always getting new insights into the character and seeing new dilemmas. This seems to have stablized. We've also by issue 24 seen a good bit of what I'll call the "standard" default superhero plot; villain has scheme; hero beats villain. While this issue fits the guidelines, it does it in a way sufficiently unique from this previous 23 to be interesting. And the idea of Spider-Man being insane and having to see a shrink is a good one. Reminds me of Hugo Strange and Batman. Spider-Man talking to a real shrink may still be a good plot. Even if he's not hallucinating upside down rooms (cleverly depicted by Ditko), he still has some issues he could probably stand to work out.

Meanwhile, Fantastic Four 35-38 features the Frightful Four. Sandman's fought both Human Torch and Spider-Man and they now seem to have dual status on his archnemesis list. And how he's teamed with Wizard, Medusa, and Paste Pot Pete! Spider-man makes a cameo as well, I think, but I don't have access to the issues at this moment to confirm this (just got rid of essential and Omnibus is yet to arrive).

[B]Journey Into Mystery #116 features a brief and completely unnecessary tie-in to the Frightful Four saga. *sigh*

StarsAndGarters

06-06-2007, 04:08 PM

Amazing Spider-Man #11

In this issue we see the mysteries surrounding Betty Brant alluded to in the previous couple issues come to a head. We also see the return of Dr. Octopus, the second of Spider-Man's foes to return for Round 2.

Going back a ways, but this is where I'm catching up. I liked that Doc Ock remembered Spidey, but I was surprised that he was consumed with thoughts of revenge. Seems awfully pissy for someone with his capabilities to be obsessed with, but I guess all these villains are slightly touched in the head so it's not that unusual.

(Stepping outside of the as-it-happens nature of this thread, did anybody read the scene where Betty saw her brother get shot and think of Harry Osborne's reaction to his father's death in the movies? She was really angry in a totally irrational way.)

Chris N

06-07-2007, 01:30 AM

Amazing Spider-Man #25

I had trouble with the idea of Jameson funding the creation of a supervillain a few issues back. I'm even more incredulous that he hasn't learned his lesson. Now he's teamed with an inventor names Smythe who invented a Spider Slayer robot. I guess he figured it would be okay this time because he'd be controlling the robot, where Gargan went insane. Also Peter talks him into it, thinking he can get some photos out of it.

Beyond that, we see more of Flash attempting to fight Peter over Liz and more jealousy between Liz and Betty. The tension there is upped a step though as we finally meet the enigmatic Mary Jane Watson! Though we don't see her face. We do learn she's apparently quite attractive.

We also learn that Betty's grown rather fond of Spider-Man since he rescued her in Amazing Spider-Man annual 1 and is quite angry at Peter for feeding Jameson's crusade.

We see again that red-haired fella hanging out with Jameson. Peter guesses he's somebody important.

It ends on a dramatic note as Aunt May finds Peter's Spider-Man costume! But he convinces her it's just a costume; of course he's not Spider-Man! *whew*.

I guess I didn't talk much of the battle between Spider-Man and the Spider-Slayer. But I couldn't get over how dorky looking it was, especially with Jonah's face on the screen.

---

Glad you're catching up Gus!

Chris N

06-10-2007, 02:21 AM

I fell quite behind this week, as I should be on issue 30 today. Ah, well.

Amazing Spider-Man #26

A lot of plots move forward for a rather good issue.

Character-wise, we see Peter without a Spider-Man costume because Aunt May hid one and Jonah took the other! So the poor guy has to go to a costume shop to buy one that won't stay tight like it needs to! He has to web the mask in place to keep it from falling off. Which, while at first seeming to be just an amusing aside, becomes his salvation when Goblin beats him and can't get his mask off for a cliffhanger ending. Well done, that.

We see Flash is basically a good guy when he admits to starting a fight with Peter so Peter doesn't get blamed. He still doesn't like Peter, of course. Betty remains as jealous as ever, especially now that she's seen Mary Jane.

We again see Jonah's odd-looking friend that Cei-U mentions.

The Green Goblin has become a better villain than in his first couple appearances. The shtick of attempting to become crimelord is a good one. And now we see he'd been teamed with a villain called Crimemaster. But we only learn this as their alliance falls apart. More villain fighting as we saw recently with the Circus of Crime. They are kept in check because they know each other's identities. Crimemaster's identity is also a mystery. There are strong hints he may be Foswell, as Foswell is acting suspicious, and Crimemaster seems to be picking up where Big Man left off. But the hints toward Foswell seem too unsubtle and may be a red herring. We know Foswell can't be the Green Goblin because he was in jail during Gobby's first couple appearances. Notably, Ned remains out of the country. So it's unlikely he's the Green Goblin. There are only so many male characters in the book though who Goblin could be. It's not Jonah. It's not Flash. I'm running low on ideas...

But entertaining issue focused mainly on Spidey's attempts to thwart Crimemasters and Goblin's attempts to run the underworld as well as the conflict between the two, ending on quite a cliffhanger.

Finally, we see again that Spider-Man is a bit dated, not only in terms of slang, but references. He mentions some band called the "Beatles" who I presume were popular back in the '60s, but clearly nobody today would know.

Cei-U!

06-10-2007, 08:01 AM

Spider-Man is a bit dated, not only in terms of slang, but references. He mentions some band called the "Beatles" who I presume were popular back in the '60s, but clearly nobody today would know.

Blasphemer!

Cei-U!
I summon the yeah, yeah, yeah!

Chris N

06-10-2007, 05:58 PM

Amazing Spider-Man #27

Another excellent issue wraps up the Crimemaster saga and the mystery of the Crimemaster is revealed. It wasn't Foswell at all, but somebody Spidey had never heard of! "It's not always the butler," muses Spidey. Foswell was working undercover as a mobster named 'Patch'.

We again see Cei-U's red-headed businessman friend at Jonah's club.

In a new twist, Peter decides to sell photos to a different paper, and thus we meet Barney Bushkin. He's far nicer and more appreciative than Jolly Jonah, but also far too nosy. But variations on the status quo are always welcome. (In the background, we see a reference to the MMMS)

At the end, we see Peter has to make himself a new costume but finds something more important than Spider-Man. A lonely aunt. Taking her to the movies was where his responsibility truly lay.

The other twist is that Spider-Man had nothing to do with stopping the Crimemaster. With the aid of Foswell, he was trapped by the police. Foswell had uncovered his identity, and he died resisting arrest, unfortunately before being able to reveal Goblin's identity. So lots of good nonstandard stuff this issue.

And Cei-U's point of earlier is well-taken that they went the "nobody you know" route with Crimemaster, so it seems unlikely they'd do it again with Goblin. Even more unlikely that he'd be so vehement over such a thing as to quit.

Nitpicks:
-Spider-Man twice in the muses Foswell may be the Green Goblin, despite the fact that Foswell was in jail when he first met the Goblin
-Peter thinks to himself that he hasn't called Betty in days, but he had seen her last issue which seemed to be earlier that day based on the story structure
-In a dramatic moment, Spider-Man expands his chest muscles to break his chains. His arms remain behind his back and there's an image of the chain shattering in all directions. Some pretty powerful chest musles. The odd thing is that if he had just spread his arms a bit, I wouldn't have found the scene strange.

In regards to last issue's review, and in light of much hate mail received, the writer wishes to note that he is actually familiar with, and in fact rather enjoys, the musical stylings of the Beatles.

Chris N

06-11-2007, 01:27 AM

Two today as I try to play catch up.

Amazing Spider-Man #28

Peter visits Smythe, creator of the Spider Slayer, to get his costume back. Smythe actually seems to be a decent fellow, rather than a villain. However his partner, Mark Raxton is not. He greedily attempts to steal an invention they'd worked on together for himself, and accidentally gets turned into Molten Man in the process!

At first, science accidents gone wrong were creating villain after villain for Peter: Dr. Octopus, Sandman, Electro. But then that trend ended. Here we see a bit of a return to it. Spider-Man gets into a particularly entertaining fight with the villain, and it only lasts one round, which isn't the usual format. But time was needed to see Peter's graduation! More on that in a moment.

After graduation, we learn Peter and Flash will be going to college together on scholarship and get a good character moment with Liz, who realises she's always seemed the ditzy blonde girl and admits to having had a crush on Peter for a while. But she emotionally has decided it's time to grow up and move on and walks out of Peter's life.

Graduation is interesting because it will lead to a change in Peter's status quo. This issue was an ending of sorts. It looked like we said goodbye to Liz but affirmed Flash and Jolly Jonah would still be around.

This leads to two things. One is the idea that if the series will go on for a while, they should keep track of time and be careful how far and fast things advance. He should be in college 4 years. But since we only see Spider-Man monthly and sometimes no time has passed between issues, this could and should be a lot longer.

With Peter's growing up, he has the potential to grow up. College, then beyond. And if time were kept track of, and say it averaged to a week between issues, then we see the next 13 years of his life could give us over 40 years of stories.

And I like the idea of Peter graduating. This gets to a comment I'd made elsewhere, but I really think Spider-Man is a story. A story about this guy who's learning as he goes and trying to do right. And it interests me the most if he continues to grow, continues to learn. I want the forward motion.

Whereas I don't need it for a character like Batman. Who to me works great in his status quo (Alfred, Gordon, Joker etc.) or transplanted outside of it. The strength there seems to be all the stories you can tell with that character or even other versions of him (like when transplanted to 19th century London etc.) I don't need the growth, the continuity. But to me the growth and continuity we see within these first 28 issues is what makes Spider-Man great.

Kirk G

06-11-2007, 09:00 PM

Cei-U!

06-11-2007, 09:20 PM

Excuse me, but let's go back to the comment about Ned Leeds being "out of the country" and so couldn't be the green goblin....
What better way to establish an alibi so that no one would suspect you!

Besides, by having his real identity "out of the way", he can play Goblin almost all day long, meeting with mob bosses, threatening Spidey, etc... almost a full time job, as I recall these two issues....

Yeah, but if you're a young newspaper reporter assigned to cover diplomatic talks in Europe, as Ned was, you'd damn well better be filing reports from Europe every damn day if you want to keep your job... especially if you're working for Jolly Jonah.

Cei-U!
I summon the implausability!

Chris N

06-12-2007, 07:48 PM

I neglected to point out last time that over in Fantastic Four annual #3, Spider-Man is a guest at the wedding of the century!

Amazing Spider-Man annual 2

This was a chance to tell a Dr. Strange story in Spider-Man, complete with Spidey being trapped in a bizarre side dimension that let Ditko run wild! We see Xandu steal the powerful Wand of Watoomb from Dr. Strange, yet even with its great power, he is bested by our heroes.

As far as I can tell, this is the first issue of Spidey where the mask never comes off. The battle with Xandu begins right away and the action doesn't stop 'til the issue ends!

We are then treated to bios of all the rogues Spidey has met since the last annual.

---

As to Ned, Kirk raises a good point, but Cei-U counters well.

It's not impossible that Ned is the Goblin as he could be scamming Jonah somehow as well, but it seems like that would be a stretch.

So, as of now, say issue 28, do we think Stan had somebody in mind for the Goblin? Do we think Steve did?

Do we think either thought it would be the strange looking gentleman at Jonah's club? Do we think either was thinking of a different solution?

Cei-U seems to have the best insights thus far. I'm pretty sold that they didn't want it to be Ned and that making it a nobody would be redundant off the Crimemaster saga. But who's left?

Chris N

06-12-2007, 08:22 PM

Amazing Spider-Man #29

The Scorpion returns!

On the surface, this may seem to be a super-hero action thriller! But, if you probe down deep, if you analyze every subtle nuance, if you dissect each philosophical phrase, if you study each non-existentialistic panel, you'll actually discover that it actually is... a super-hero action-thriller!

Heh. We'll see about that...

Scorpion breaks out of prison because they returned his costume to him. Who runs these jails?

Ned's back from his trip to Europe (if that's really where he was...) and Betty seems quite cozy within him. And he protects Betty while Spidey battles Scorpion. Poor Peter.

We also get cryptic hints of things to come. Foswell is investigating a string of catburglar robberies. And Aunt May seems sick.

Overall, I think Stan's words were spot on. Super-hero action thriller it was indeed!

Kirk G

06-13-2007, 03:56 PM

Yeah, but if you're a young newspaper reporter assigned to cover diplomatic talks in Europe, as Ned was, you'd damn well better be filing reports from Europe every damn day if you want to keep your job... especially if you're working for Jolly Jonah.

Cei-U!
I summon the implausability!

Good point!
I hadn't recalled just why he was dispatched, and hadn't read the entire series in a while.

I yield to the better memory!:D
(Now I'm beginning to think that it might be my memory that is faulty. It was a disagreement between Ditko and Lee as to which character would be revealed as the Goblin, but perhaps the disagreement over repeating themselves was over an unknown, and not over more than one criminal coming out of the newsroom.):rolleyes:

Chris N

06-13-2007, 07:15 PM

Amazing Spider-Man #30

A catburglar named the Cat menaces town and Jonah has offered a $1000 reward for his capture, a reward he wants anybody but Spider-Man to get.

Jameson's character is often used for comic relief. I prefer the petty and comical rivalry between the two, over Jameson actually sending killer robots and super-villains against Spidey. This issue spotlights the former well.

Spider-Man has the Cat on the ropes but he ends up captured by the police, so Spidey gets no reward.

The main action in this issue is what seems to be the climax of the Peter/Betty dynamic. Ned has proposed to her and she tells Peter. It's Peter she's in love with but Peter's too stubborn to listen. Betty's experiences have made her not want to be with an adventurous man. She wants somebody stable. And Peter knows it is not him. The issue ends with and image of Spider-Man standing between the two. He has a responsbility to be Spider-Man, but does the responsbility extend to pushing Betty away? What about her needs? What about his? There's "no way out", as he puts it. And describes a "typical Parker day". Life just doesn't work out for our hero, despite his standing steadfastly to his moral code.

We get more hints of things to come as the Cat works with a gang who has a mysterious boss and Aunt May's condition seems to worsen.

We also see Liz again, even though it seemed like she was out of the cast. She has a job but doesn't want to talk to Peter and has been avoiding Flash, who wants to find where she works. Flash actually seems like a bit of a stalker. But the Betty/Liz plots weren't as wrapped up as I had thought.

Chris N

06-16-2007, 09:48 PM

Since I'm quite behind schedule, I have an excuse to do the entire Master Planner Saga in one day! I started reading Spider-Man much later than most people here, beginning in 1992, but I've by now had the chance to read almost every Spider-Man comic ever, and every one in his main titles, which is well over 2000 Spider-Man comics. And, at their best, they tend to aspire to be this story. We begin...

Amazing Spider-Man #31

"If this be my destiny..."

We see a return to a lot of things that have been lacking for over 20 issues now. Great action scenes in two short acts, with the final solution coming from scientific know-how. Between the two arcs was a lot of great character drama, which begins a new direction for Spider-Man, on Pete's first day of college. The action includes a midair leap to a helicopter, an underwater base, and criminals using impressive technology.

This has been building up for a few issues now. We've seen Aunt May's illness approaching. We've known Pete would be starting college soon and we've seen the villains of this issue who work for a mysterious boss, we learn calls himself the Master Planner.

The Master Planner's identity is a mystery. We've had a lot of these lately. But we get some pretty strong clues to this one at the end. He's studying atomic radiation, clearly brilliant, and Spidey and he have "crossed paths" before. So it seems like it's an old villain of Spidey's who's also a nuclear physicist. My guess is Ox.

Throughout the series, there has been a focus on Aunt May's health and financial issues. These are brought to the foreground in strong ways. As to the former, Aunt May is in the hospital and this affects Peter strongly as we'll discuss more in a bit. The issue ends with an ominous note that Aunt May is dying! So we've got the dramatic tension upped to its utmost.

Peter's life. Which is what it's all about, right? He had failed to notice May's health and this weighs on his conscience. All about responsibility. "...I didn't even suspect she was ill! I was so wrapped up in my own affairs..." He bemoans the uselessness of being Spider-Man. "And, with all my power..." But at least Spidey should be able to help him get pics (of questionable ethics). But, Parker luck being true to form, the worst crime out there is an illegally parked car. He's caught in a vicious circle of conflicting responsibilities, as he always has been. But everything is now in the forefront. Being Spider-Man is his only source of income. But it distracts from his studies. Both distract from Aunt May. Aunt May needs attention. And money. His studies mean he can't get a real job and so needs Spider-Man. His studies are important to Aunt May so he can't abandon them. No way out. And this is ignoring his responsibility to help those who need him and what not. Good stuff.

Back at the Bugle, we learn Jonah misses having Peter around (or at least the money his photos bring in!) and that Betty is yet to answer Ned's request for marriage. First she wants to learn what it is that Peter is hiding from her. She knows he has a secret. Ned is being very patient; just seems like an all-around good guy to me. Foswell is still instrumental is fighting the bad guys in his identity as Patch.

Of course the big thing is starting college, which begins with a great montage panel which shows the various difficulties of lines and paperwork and Flash. We meet two new characters who make friends with Flash. Harry Osborn and Gwen Stacy. Gwen was her high school beauty queen.

Flash attempts to introduce them to Pete but he ignores them, as he's too worried about his aunt to notice anybody. His behavior makes him appear standoffish to everybody. People think he's arrogant. Looks like he won't be any more popular in college than high school, unfortunately. In fact, the kids even play a prank on him, which gets him in trouble with his science professor, Professor Warren. Harry in particular doesn't like Peter.

Gwen seems like a replacement for Liz. The beauty queen. Never been ignored by any guy before Peter. Which intrigues her. (damn women! so complicated!) Gwen is attracted to Peter, but annoyed by his aloofness.

And Harry does have an unusual look and haircut reminiscient of Jonah's friend. I've read these stories a few times before without noticing though. But we can't all be as bright as Cei-U!

Anyways, I obviously like this issue a lot and all that is set up here. On to the next one...

Chris N

06-16-2007, 09:48 PM

Amazing Spider-Man #32

"Man on a Rampage!"

The secret of the Master Planner is revealed by the first story page- Dr. Octopus! I was close with Ox.

His plan is to harness the radiation to his own ends. The radiation that empowered him and Spider-Man and so many others. So far we've seen it happen randomly. Ock seeks control.

This is an excellent issue for tension, which I'll summarise while noting some parallels to Amazing Fantasy #15.

There, Uncle Ben died. Here, Aunt May is dying. Peter felt (and kinda was) responsible for Ben's death. And May is dying we learn because of the radiation in her blood caused by the transfusion from Peter. Coincidence played a key role in Uncle Ben's death, obviously. And here we see the serum May needs was stolen by Dr. Octopus, once again Spider-Man's affairs coincidentally interacting with Peter's, now to threaten May's life. Spider-man goes on a rampage, tearing through town to track down the Master Planner, with all the fervor he once went after the burglar with. Finally, Spider-Man confronts the Master Planner and learns his true identity, which is the climactic scene of his confrontation with the burglar as well.

I don't know. Am I reaching? Or are the parallels there?

Other events of the issue include Peter/Betty drama. She tries to speak at him, but he tends to be lost in his own thoughts and is always drawn not even looking at her. Being the responsible one, not wanting to burden Betty with his secret, but knowing her love for him was futile, he tries to make Betty hate him by being a prick. Which I'm not sure was necessary. Ned was nice all the way through though, politely suggesting Pete calm down some.

The dramatic tension comes to a head by the end of the issue. It walks a border of being too much, too melodramatic, but I think it falls on the right side of the line. He's trapped under rubble for 3 pages. The serum that can save May is just out of reach. A flash to Connors reminds us time is of the essence. Spidey can't get free. The river is about to crash down on him. A flash to May reminds us what's at stake.

I don't know about you, but I feel it.

To be continued...

Chris N

06-16-2007, 09:49 PM

Amazing Spider-Man #33

"The Final Chapter"

A fitting title. All the difficulties Peter's faced through the series have been brought to a head. I noted parallels to his origin in the last post. But here he saves Aunt May. After 33 issues of struggling to reconcile conflicting responsibilities, when things are at their hardest, he pulls through. Against all odds, Spider-Man triumphs over the conflicts of the present and most importantly over his inner demons. This time, he does not fail.

Plus seeing his bruised face convinces Betty (hopefully) once and for all the life he lives is too dangerous for her.

The five pages it takes for Spider-Man to free himself from the rubble-- there's just little to say. Reflecting on his failures, realising his strengths, renewing his determination and finally doing the impossible. Probably my favourite single moment of the series thus far.

Together these three issues define the essence of Spider-Man to me.

Chris N

06-18-2007, 03:11 AM

Amazing Spider-Man #34

Peter finally meets the gang we were introduced to a couple issues back. Harry yells at him and Gwen snubs him; poor Pete learns why nobody in school likes him. Gwen meanwhile is being followed around by every guy in school. She's like the college version of Liz taken to extremes.

The issue begins with a bit of a shocker; Peter reveals his identity to Betty! Oh, but it was only a dream. Betty knows he has a secret but is sure it isn't that. Maybe she should listen to her subconscious. At the end of the issue, we learn Betty has left town suddenly and gets replaced at the Bugle.

Most of the issue is dedicated to Kraven's hunting of Spider-Man, which to me doesn't do anything to significantly add to the last time Kraven hunted Spider-Man.

Chris N

06-18-2007, 03:12 AM

Difficulties getting onto CBR gave me time to play catch-up a bit.

Amazing Spider-Man #35

The Molten Man returns, this time with the plan to disguise himself so his crimes couldn't be pinned on him.

But Peter uses his brains too: "He sure packed a punch like iron! Iron's a metal!... It could be the Molten Man!"

Brilliant, Peter! Please explain to me now how you know a witch weighs the same as a duck.

Their battle has more sound effects thanwe're used to THWOP! BRRAKK! SPWAT! etc. as blows are repeatedly exchanged. Their battle features a cool move of Spidey spinning himself upside down while Molten Man holds him.

Sad ending as Peter learns Betty has left and fears she's off with Leeds. He throws out a picture of himself he'd given her, letting the glass shatter and walks off into the distance past shattered glass and silhouettes of Betty.

But mainly a battle issue which can feel a wee repetetive.

Next issue we get a swining super-villain so different, so new, we can't even tell you his name yet! Not to jump forward in time and ruin the suspense, but that name they were too excited to tell us: The Looter.

The letters page tells us they were originally planning on the Meteor Man. Leaving us wondering what they could come up with that's better...

Chris N

06-19-2007, 07:31 PM

Amazing Spider-Man #36

Here we meet the Looter! His origin walks the line between being really lame and being a clever parody of lame origins. I'm not quite sure which. I'll assume parody. It goes for 2 pages and through all the cliches. Exaggerates his ego. Powers just happen. Explanation: meteor. He shows off lifting a cabinet. All seems cliche enough to be intentional. Plus his name is the Looter.

"Just because I flunked science in school doesn't mean I can't discover the secret of the universe!" Ha! Something about that reminds me of lots of arguments on this board as to why the best Spidey artist ever is Deodato or why his greatest villains are Morlun and Carnage.

So here's where Peter loses me. He doesn't have friends at college. And that's sad. Sally Green invites him to a party. He's excited until she comments on how smart she thinks he is. Then he brushes her off because he's tired of being seen as an egghead. Jeeze! Go to the party! Make some friends. Or at least try to go but then have superheroing get in the way. Next time he blames his social life on Spider-Man, I'm pointing to this.*

Instead he goes to an exhibit where the Looter strikes! I used to keep track of the number of times the villain has randomly intersected Peter Parker's life but I lost count.

Gwen dislikes him even more in this issue because he runs away when Looter shows up and mistakes him for a coward. Apparently what she's looking for in a friend is somebody who will stand up to superpowered lunatics in costume. Bit of a high standard, I think. But now she snubs him even more.

Anyways, something off about the character drama. And Looter's a fine villain if he's intentionally lame. Otherwise he is teh suxxors.

*To be fair, he mentions Betty in regards to this incident, and perhaps it's a fear of getting to close to somebody only to have Spider-Man get in the way again. But even so, that's cowardly and no way to go through life. Avoiding the attempt because it may lead to complications.

Not that I'm in any position to throw stones at Peter, mind you

Chris N

06-26-2007, 01:58 PM

Amazing Spider-Man #37

We finally get a name to the man for the man at Jonah's club- Norman Osborn. His son is Harry, "one of Peter's nastier classmates." He once cheated his partner Mendel Stromm out of some inventions and now Stromm, the Robot Master, wants revenge. Norman is a bad man and manages to almost kill Stromm with a rifle. Spider-Man saves Robot Master, who dies anyway from heart failure. Because Spider-Man interfered with him and because he fears Spider-Man suspects what he's done, Norman decides Spider-Man must be eliminated.

Possibly worth noting, there is no indication of animosity prior to then. In fact, when Jonah accused Spider-Man of starting the fire, Norman suggested they not be hasty as he probably wasn't to blame.

Also, we see the dynamic between Gwen and Peter continue. They quarrel some, but she ends up defending him to Harry. Looks to me like they're going to start dating soon...

Kirk G

06-26-2007, 02:22 PM

The Master Planner's identity is a mystery. We've had a lot of these lately. But we get some pretty strong clues to this one at the end. He's studying atomic radiation, clearly brilliant, and Spidey and he have "crossed paths" before. So it seems like it's an old villain of Spidey's who's also a nuclear physicist. My guess is Ox.

You have got to be kidding!

An old villian, who's also a nuclear physicist???? OX????? I thought he had died over in Daredevil...
(Personally, the whole "Master Planner" blind seemed out of character for Doc Oct for me. Why did he even bother with it? It lasted all of two issues? Maybe less? Seemed a motiveless waste to me.)

As for Harry's wavy hair and Norman's wavy hair, I tumbled to that right away... It would seem that I was skimming these issues as they came out onto the spiner rack, and I recall reading that they were father and son.
More puzzling was why Gwen, Liz and Clea all had the same hair barrett or headband? (Ditko didn't differentiate his women well enough for me...they were all blonde!):rolleyes:

Kirk G

06-26-2007, 02:57 PM

Meanwhile, Fantastic Four 35-38 features the Frightful Four. Sandman's fought both Human Torch and Spider-Man and they now seem to have dual status on his archnemesis list. And how he's teamed with Wizard, Medusa, and Paste Pot Pete! Spider-man makes a cameo as well, I think, but I don't have access to the issues at this moment to confirm this (just got rid of essential and Omnibus is yet to arrive).

Journey Into Mystery #116 features a brief and completely unnecessary tie-in to the Frightful Four saga. *sigh*

Ahem! The Frightful Four were introduced in FF #36, skipped over #37 in favor of the Skrulls, then return in #38 to take the FF's powers away, and their "completely unnecessary tie-in" which is a logical follow up to #38, occurs in JIM #116 to answer the question, if they had wiped out the FF, why wouldn't they have looted the baxter bldg?

They next appear in FF #41-43, and Medusa starts to come into her own in #44...with the run of the Inhumans from #45-48. We next see the Sandman and Trapster in prizon together in about #53 or #56... and Sandman escapes in the start of #58 with the help of the Wizard. This pays off with Sandman's return in #61-63.

Chris N

06-26-2007, 03:10 PM

Ahem! The Frightful Four were introduced in FF #36, skipped over #37 in favor of the Skrulls, then return in #38 to take the FF's powers away, and their "completely unnecessary tie-in" which is a logical follow up to #38, occurs in JIM #116 to answer the question, if they had wiped out the FF, why wouldn't they have looted the baxter bldg?

They next appear in FF #41-43, and Medusa starts to come into her own in #44...with the run of the Inhumans from #45-48. We next see the Sandman and Trapster in prizon together in about #55 or #56... and Sandman escapes in the start of #56 with the help of the Wizard. This pays off with Sandman's return in #61-63.

You caught me! I recently gave away my Essential FF vol. 2 as I have the Essential Omnibus vol. 2 on order. I thought I could just talk from memory about where Sandman went off to but failed.

I'd have gotten away with it too if not for you and that dog of yours!

About Journey Into Mystery, I will also concede the point to you. Their mistaking of Balder for the Human Torch does tie that up and justifies it happening in Thor. I was now so on the look-out for marketing-inspired crossovers that I was seeing them everywhere...

I did a terrible, terrible job in that post.

BTW, I was joking with my Ox theory.

Hey, there's an out. I was also joking with my description of the Frightful Four stuff... Yeah. Ha ha. Ha?

StarsAndGarters

06-26-2007, 10:58 PM

Chris N

06-27-2007, 12:39 AM

Over in Daredevil #16 the Masked Marauder tricks Spider-Man into thinking Daredevil attacked him to cause them to fight. DD tries to explain it's a misunderstanding when Spidey attacks, but to no avail. With villains like Chameleon and Mysterio, you'd think Spider-Man would be more open-minded about these things. But he's always been portrayed as stubborn, so this is consistent.

What's not consistent is his spider sense. It tingled and lured him to a building and he knew somehow it was leading him to Daredevil. No real explanation for that and it's far outside of what his powers actually do. If they could take him to somebody, he wouldn't need the tracers! This writer must... oh, same writer. Perhaps the Marvel method is to blame? I don't like it.

We also learn Spider-Man has had a previous battle with the Masked Marauder that went on off-panel. So we're apparently not privy to all of Pete's adventures.

We see a good rendition of Spider-Man by John Romita. His Peter Parker though is a bit too handsome, more proportionate that Ditko's lanky nerd.

In Daredevil #17, his spider sense tells him Matt really is blind. Yet they've also convinced him DD's in the room, so it must be the fat guy. ??

Daredevil and Spider-Man fight again but eventually foil the Masked Marauder's plans together, though the Marauder escapes.

Once again, Romita's take on Spider-Man is excellent. But there's only one real Spider-Man artist...

Amazing Spider-Man #38

Well, here we are. The final Ditko issue of Spider-Man. He doesn't quite go out with a bang, but he goes out with a solid and interesting story. But it's the end of an era.

To me, it means this omnibus is done and I have to read black and white essentials until issue 86. *le sigh*

Just a guy named Joe. Joe Smith. Average guy. Not particularly skilled but has big dreams. This issue is largely his story. He gets powers, but they just send him on a mindless rampage and wear off fast anyway. It's after he loses them that it's realised the strength of his "acting" alone was enough to start his path to stardom. After a life of being a loser, he found his talent and is going to make something of himself.

I'm sure there's a nice parallel to draw with Spider-Man and wonder if somebody else sees it better than I do. I've always interpreted "With great power comes great responsibility" to mean that one should find the talents they have and figure out how to best use them to help others. Joe's story is about an average guy finding what makes him special, but there's no "call" to service apparent. He's just going to live his life doing what he's good at.

For better or worse, Ditko's final issue doesn't make for an "ending" in any sense. Betty's disappeared and that still appears to need resolution. And Norman Osborn is now seeking Spider-Man dead. Which is too bad. This is a good issue but lacks a sense of conclusion. We got that sense in Amazing Spider-Man #33, but the series has seemed somewhat directionless for the last 5 issues.

Also, Ned finally yells at Peter, telling him he never liked him. Ned had always come off as pretty goody-goody, seeming to go out of his way to be nice to Peter even though they were clearly competing for Betty's affections. Now we see he's not all about hugz.

But yeah. An amazing 38 issues by a visionary artist. Impossible to top. But the greatness that is Spider-Man will continue undeterred...

sheets

06-27-2007, 06:14 AM

Amazing Spider-Man #37Norman is a bad man and manages to almost kill Stromm with a rifle.

That scene is interesting because you never actually see Norman do anything, although you see him later on with a rifle and because he attacked Spidey earlier it's heavily implied that he was the one who took the shot. When Spidey goes to the high window from which the shot came, there are no stairs and there wasn't enough time for whoever did it to escape and pull away a ladder or rope. Mysterious...!

Chris N

06-27-2007, 11:57 AM

That scene is interesting because you never actually see Norman do anything, although you see him later on with a rifle and because he attacked Spidey earlier it's heavily implied that he was the one who took the shot. When Spidey goes to the high window from which the shot came, there are no stairs and there wasn't enough time for whoever did it to escape and pull away a ladder or rope. Mysterious...!

Good point. And it does seem intentional that they didn't show him.

"I can't take the chance of him spilling the beans about me" is what we see the gunman think, which implied Norman so strongly to me I didn't think twice about him.

Interesting choice by Ditko, there. Good stuff.

Cei-U!

06-27-2007, 12:43 PM

That scene is interesting because you never actually see Norman do anything, although you see him later on with a rifle and because he attacked Spidey earlier it's heavily implied that he was the one who took the shot. When Spidey goes to the high window from which the shot came, there are no stairs and there wasn't enough time for whoever did it to escape and pull away a ladder or rope. Mysterious...!

But plenty of time to get away if you're riding your goblin glider.

Cei-U!
I summon the A-ha! moment!

Chris N

06-27-2007, 12:46 PM

But plenty of time to get away if you're riding your goblin glider.

Cei-U!
I summon the A-ha! moment!

I see.

Or if you're the Vulture.

So somebody like Green Goblin or Vulture perhaps also has a grudge against Robot Master and a rifle similar to Norman's...

Cei-U!

06-27-2007, 03:42 PM

I see.

Or if you're the Vulture.

So somebody like Green Goblin or Vulture perhaps also has a grudge against Robot Master and a rifle similar to Norman's...

Oh, I wasn't clever enough to figure it out when I first read #37 (I was sharp at 7 but c'mon...). My comment is strictly the product of hindsight.

Clearly, though, Stan or Steve or both intended it to be a clue of *some* kind, which makes me wonder if Lee was actively pushing Osborn as his choice for Goblinhood and taking a stronger hand in the plotting of those last couple of stories than Ditko had grown accustomed to.

Cei-U!
I summon the idle speculation!

Chris N

06-27-2007, 03:54 PM

Oh, I wasn't clever enough to figure it out when I first read #37 (I was sharp at 7 but c'mon...). My comment is strictly the product of hindsight.

Clearly, though, Stan or Steve or both intended it to be a clue of *some* kind, which makes me wonder if Lee was actively pushing Osborn as his choice for Goblinhood and taking a stronger hand in the plotting of those last couple of stories than Ditko had grown accustomed to.

Cei-U!
I summon the idle speculation!

It definitely wouldn't fit with their standard operating procedure. As my understanding is that Lee's directions rarely if ever dictated the way panels went.

But Norman being in a Goblin suit is a good reason for keeping the shooter off panel.

And would explain why they chose to zoom out on that image. Both were clearly careful decisions.

This is their next-to-last issue. Did they know this by this point? Where in the disagreements were they?

If the disagreement was over the identity of the Goblin, then Ditko would not have liked this issue at all. As Norman is depicted as evil, even if not Gobliny. And 2 panels are difficult to explain the reasoning behind except as clues to Norman's identity.

Is this suggestive their break-up actually did not involve the Goblin? Or would Ditko have gone ahead and drawn this issue Lee's way even if he didn't agree with some choices?

I love idle speculation.

Green Goblin

06-28-2007, 08:40 AM

these arre excllcent keep it up

Asmith

07-02-2007, 03:56 AM

Wow. These are really great!

I sat down and read them all in one day - I just couldn't stop.
Quite a few of them had me scurrying off to find a re-print of the issue they were talking about and had me going "yeah - that reviews right. I'd never noticed what they'd been implying before!" And a few others had me wishing I had even more re-prints for the ones I was missing!

Very cool. And while I understand it's gotta be a tough grind to try and do this daily - I'm more than happy to read these things when you do 'em!

You know... this would actually make for quite an interesting 'stand alone' website or feature section somewhere... Like that guy whose 'reviewing' the Bible, book by book, over at Slate.com.

Crimson

07-02-2007, 04:03 AM

Good point. And it does seem intentional that they didn't show him.

"I can't take the chance of him spilling the beans about me" is what we see the gunman think, which implied Norman so strongly to me I didn't think twice about him.

Interesting choice by Ditko, there. Good stuff.

Can you credit that to Ditko? He wanted Green Goblin to be someone we'd never see before.

Chris N

07-02-2007, 12:01 PM

Can you credit that to Ditko? He wanted Green Goblin to be someone we'd never see before.

That's what I had heard, but we've had debate on this thread about it.

And somebody correctly noted they'd just done that with Crimemaster. So it would seem redundant.

Chris N

07-02-2007, 12:02 PM

InfoBroker

07-05-2007, 02:32 AM

Can you credit that to Ditko? He wanted Green Goblin to be someone we'd never see before.

That's what I had heard, but we've had debate on this thread about it.

There is nothing stated in this thread that can be credited to Ditko as to who he wanted the Goblin to be. There is only speculation, along with a couple of pointers to sources that knew Steve Ditko, worked with Steve Ditko, or worked in the offices of Marvel Comics in 1966, when Steve left. And that too is speculation.

And somebody correctly noted they'd just done that with Crimemaster. So it would seem redundant.

Or consistent to a philosophy that didn't want to glamorize villains. Depends on your POV. And again, we don't know Steve's position. Could well be that he didn't want the Goblin to ever be revealed in any form or fashion, just remain a face in the shadows. A nobody.

As for redundant being a reason NOT to do something... how many of the people from Peter's personal life have wound up being villains that go on to challenge Spidey in some form or another?

Given how trite that formula has gotten, if Steve really did want the Green Goblin to be a nobody (philosophies aside), my creative instincts say he was right.

-jb the ib -

sabongero

09-03-2007, 08:19 PM

I am just going to bump this up. I like your synopsis and review on the classic early stories of Amazing Spider-Man Coke and Comics. I know you are busy, and anytime you can have an update it is very much appreciated man. Thanks.

InfoBroker

09-14-2007, 11:31 AM

Since we discussed this early here, I thought people would be interested in the pending program mentioned in this article (http://arts.guardian.co.uk/art/news/story/0,,2169000,00.html)

There are a few things in error, mostly minor, but not a bad overall article for the broader masses.

I am slightly curious about the response to the knock on the door... which I'm betting is nada.

- jb the (and given my respect for Steve Ditko, I would have heeded his request to be left alone) ib -

p.s. and to be clear, it is a show about hunting down Steve Ditko and discussing his comical book work. My title to this append might be misleading, but I can't change it

Kirk G

09-14-2007, 01:03 PM

It definitely wouldn't fit with their standard operating procedure. As my understanding is that Lee's directions rarely if ever dictated the way panels went.

But Norman being in a Goblin suit is a good reason for keeping the shooter off panel.

And would explain why they chose to zoom out on that image. Both were clearly careful decisions.

This is their next-to-last issue. Did they know this by this point? Where in the disagreements were they?

If the disagreement was over the identity of the Goblin, then Ditko would not have liked this issue at all. As Norman is depicted as evil, even if not Gobliny. And 2 panels are difficult to explain the reasoning behind except as clues to Norman's identity.

Is this suggestive their break-up actually did not involve the Goblin? Or would Ditko have gone ahead and drawn this issue Lee's way even if he didn't agree with some choices?

I love idle speculation.

Yes, it is my understanding that Lee exerted editorial control suddenly when he learned where Ditko was taking the storyline.... and concidering how little direction he had been giving Ditko... or conversely, how much freedom he had allowed him, this jerking of the reigns MUST have soured Ditko.
For, as I understand it, the next issue was his last, storming out (as so many long timers and successful artistic talent would do, when trumped by Lee...)

(Can we all chant and name them together....
Ditko,
Steranko,
Kirby,
and more...)

Now, in fairness, I can't recall my source for this interpretation of the break-up, but I think it might have been the unauthorised complete Spider-Man that an alternative press publication had been putting out. (until Marvel gave them a cease and decist, and began publication of their own "Handbook to the Marvel Universe" and "Ultimate collection of the _____[fill in the blank with FF, Avengers, Spiderman, DD, X-men, etc.]"