Backward, turn backward, O Time, in thy flight

[Rik Levins]

Recently I got into a discussion about the Reeve Superman movies on another forum, and the subject turned to the ending of that first film, in which Superman flies around the world and turns back time.

One poster mentioned that he'd always thought it was an extremely stupid concept, that reversing the Earth's rotation would reverse time.

At first I thought he was joking. When I saw the movie in 1978, I took it for granted that Superman was simply flying faster than light, in order to break the time-barrier and travel backward in time. After all, he'd been doing that in the comic books for decades. Seeing the Earth spin backwards, and all the events on the ground reversing themselves, seemed to me just an obvious visual way to show the effects of time travel.

It never occurred to me that he had physically stopped the world from turning, and forced it to go in the other direction.

But to my surprise, as more and more people weighed in on this discussion, it seemed that a fairly large number of people agreed with that poster. And regarded it as one of the most egregious flaws of the movie.

So, I'm curious...what do the rest of you think? Did Superman actually spin the Earth backwards at the end of the first Reeves movie? Or was he merely going backwards in time?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I took it as breaking the time barrier by flying faster than the speed of light. At which point, he altered the flow of events to avert death & destruction he failed to prevent.

It's a cop-out, yes, but it's a visually spectacular one and really gets across just how powerful Superman is. I would have prefered he only used it once, but given the circumstances surrounding the Richard Donner Cut of Superman II, I can forgive them using the same trick twice. I would have loved to see what they would have come up with had Donner not been fired.

[MaxofSteel]

I always thought it to be a literal sort of thing, that Supes had physically reversed Earth's rotation thus "turning back time. This was one of my major gripes with the original flicks (on par with the cellophane S shield of Supes2).

But I actually never considered the alternative theory until just now. The faster than light speed theory makes more sense. But if that's the case, then why didn't Supes just use that speed to save Lois in the first place, or prevent any of the other disasters for that matter?

[mattx110]

i thought about it recently and decided, he flew backward through time. he didn't make time go backward. for him, time went backward because he was the time traveller, but the rest of the universe didn't notice.

and to senor max, he had to fly through space a few times around the world to gain enough speed. maybe it's not practical to do this on earth, or he just didn't know he could go that fast until he tried it.
maybe like the JLU flash, he's afraid to go too fast, or he'll fall into the speed force. in supermans case, wind up breaking the time barrier by accident and accelerating into 2938 or something.

[MaxofSteel]

and to senor max, he had to fly through space a few times around the world to gain enough speed.

Yea good point. The Flash example makes sense too, as light speed on earth might have been speed overkill given the circumstances. Maybe its just the 70's special efects of the flick, but it looks like Supes was flying much slower than he could have. Idunno.

[mattx110]

well, he probably could do more if he was more efficient with his powers, but then they need to go crazier with the natural disasters. we'd need every story with superman to be just a massive world disaster with a million things happening at once to the point where the film would be incomprehensible (or at least a bit confusing).
since we also get films with comic characters whose powers are a bit more down to earth, i guess it balances out.

edit: so i really do kinda agree with you, because you can really rationalize the argument either way.

[Kara Zor El]

I always thought it to be a literal sort of thing, that Supes had physically reversed Earth's rotation thus "turning back time. This was one of my major gripes with the original flicks (on par with the cellophane S shield of Supes2).

But I actually never considered the alternative theory until just now. The faster than light speed theory makes more sense. But if that's the case, then why didn't Supes just use that speed to save Lois in the first place, or prevent any of the other disasters for that matter?

Because Jor-El had forbidden it.

I think the intention is that he turns the world backwards and that reverses time. Just the Earth slowing would kill everyone, so it's an impossible thing to do scientifically. But it was the old days, where people went into space without space suits and all kinds of unscientific nonsense going on in movies.
However, the great thing is that the faster than light thing makes it work. so if you want you can say to yourself that that is what happened or in my case enjoy the goofiness of mad comic inspired superpower.

[PatrickG]

I'm 99.9% sure he's breaking lightspeed. And the only way they could think to convey that was showing time move backwards in relation to Superman.

And not only didn't he do it before because of Jor-el's warning but it took the emotional push of Lois dying to get him to use his full speed. Think of it as an adrenaline rush.

[mattx110]

I'm 99.9% sure he's breaking lightspeed. And the only way they could think to convey that was showing time move backwards in relation to Superman.

And not only didn't he do it before because of Jor-el's warning but it took the emotional push of Lois dying to get him to use his full speed. Think of it as an adrenaline rush.

sicko, he gets his kicks off of loved ones dying. that's why he wanted to save her. so he could shove her back in trouble and get off on it.

oh, don't mind me, that was a terrible thing to say.

[niall mc cann]

I always, always took it as breaking the light barrier.

i was only a kid when i saw it first, but i can honestly say i don't remember ever believing he was just winding the world back around. That don't make sense.:confused:

[Kara Zor El]

Things don't always make sense in the movies or comics. How does Superman's suit suddenly appear on him as he jumps from the window of the planet for instance? How does Luthor have a secret base underneath Metropolis? And why are there only a couple of jeeps and a handful of men escorting a 500 Megaton nuclear missile? If you have to apply logic to the turn back time bit then surely you have to apply logic to every other oddity in the movie.

The only thing that spoils the traveling faster than light theory is the fact that once Superman flies backwards round the Earth, the Earth starts moving backwards. But then he goes back the other way to set it turning the right way again. If he was just traveling faster than light, then he wouldn't have needed to reverse. Just slowed down and he would have been back in time.

[niall mc cann]

Sure, but if something is obvious and makes sense, why choose to believe an alternative explaination that doesn't?

From the POV of supes (whose POV we, the audience, are sharing) the earth starts turning in a different direction; from an objective POV, it was only ever spinning the one way. that was my take on it.

As to why he changed direction? To look in on specific disaster spots? To get his breath back? For the hell of it? All make more sense to me than to start the world turning forwards again.

[Rik Levins]

The only thing that spoils the traveling faster than light theory is the fact that once Superman flies backwards round the Earth, the Earth starts moving backwards. But then he goes back the other way to set it turning the right way again. If he was just traveling faster than light, then he wouldn't have needed to reverse. Just slowed down and he would have been back in time.

Simple.

If he had just slowed down, the world would STILL HAVE BEEN TURNING BACKWARDS. No doubt the producers/directors felt that this would have totally confused the audience, especially when Superman swooped down to find that events on the ground were moving forward normally. Why aren't things still going in reverse, if the planet is still rotating in the opposite direction, they would wonder. Sure, they COULD have had Supes just pause, and hang there in space while the planet seemingly righted itself, but that would have been a boring visual. So it was necessary to SHOW in an absolutely unmistakable way that the flow of time had been restored to its normal direction.

At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Kara Zor El]

Simple.

If he had just slowed down, the world would STILL HAVE BEEN TURNING BACKWARDS. No doubt the producers/directors felt that this would have totally confused the audience, especially when Superman swooped down to find that events on the ground were moving forward normally. Why aren't things still going in reverse, if the planet is still rotating in the opposite direction, they would wonder. Sure, they COULD have had Supes just pause, and hang there in space while the planet seemingly righted itself, but that would have been a boring visual. So it was necessary to SHOW in an absolutely unmistakable way that the flow of time had been restored to its normal direction.

At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Fair enough but that means Superman does something he doesn't need to, to make the theory work. If we are talking logic, then he would have just slowed down, not reversed.

So either way we have a glitch.

[3D Master]

Superman did not travel back in time. If Superman travelled back in time, he would meet himself; there'd be two Supermen, one belonging in the right time, and the other having arrived from the future. From this we can see, that the temporal effects did not effect him, but only the Earth.

In short; it was conceived and filmed as Superman turning back the Earth, and thus turning back time. Obviously, this makes no sense; it would not reverse time; it would just make volcanoes explode, earthquakes to happen, walls of water smashing cities to rubble, planet covering storms to emerge, and generally eradicating all life above the size of hamster; humanity included.

However; we have a solution: we merge the two. Superman did not turn back the Earth and thus turn back time, Superman turned back time, and thus turned back the Earth. His speed greater than that of light, allows him to generate a temporal cocoon in which time moves backward around the Earth, to which he himself remains outside of. Once this cocoon is formed, it's there, and Superman would have to undo the temporal cocoon to get time on Earth to move in the right direction again; hence him moving in both directions.

Of course, if he could move that fast; the movie really should have ended this way: http://www.howitshouldhaveended.com/Divx%20links/Superman.html

[Kara Zor El]

Superman did not travel back in time. If Superman travelled back in time, he would meet himself; there'd be two Supermen, one belonging in the right time, and the other having arrived from the future. From this we can see, that the temporal effects did not effect him, but only the Earth.

In short; it was conceived and filmed as Superman turning back the Earth, and thus turning back time. Obviously, this makes no sense; it would not reverse time; it would just make volcanoes explode, earthquakes to happen, walls of water smashing cities to rubble, planet covering storms to emerge, and generally eradicating all life above the size of hamster; humanity included.

However; we have a solution: we merge the two. Superman did not turn back the Earth and thus turn back time, Superman turned back time, and thus turned back the Earth. His speed greater than that of light, allows him to generate a temporal cocoon in which time moves backward around the Earth, to which he himself remains outside of. Once this cocoon is formed, it's there, and Superman would have to undo the temporal cocoon to get time on Earth to move in the right direction again; hence him moving in both directions.

Of course, if he could move that fast; the movie really should have ended this way: http://www.howitshouldhaveended.com/Divx%20links/Superman.html

I can dig that. But at the same time I quite enjoy implausible stuff going on in old movies and comics etc. It's part of the charm for me. It's what separates modern story telling from the old. Something Tom Strong has a lot of fun with. If we go back to all the old fantasy/Sci Fi/horror etc movies and apply logic you ruin them I think. Look at the old King Kong for instance. When T.Rex bights Kong's arm he would have bitten it in half. T.Rex had jaws that could bite through steel, never mind a big load of ape meat and bone, but then Kong wouldn't have won.
That's why I liked Superboy Prime so much in IC because he was a nod to the implausible characters and their powers of old.

[3D Master]

I can dig that. But at the same time I quite enjoy implausible stuff going on in old movies and comics etc. It's part of the charm for me. It's what separates modern story telling from the old. Something Tom Strong has a lot of fun with. If we go back to all the old fantasy/Sci Fi/horror etc movies and apply logic you ruin them I think. Look at the old King Kong for instance. When T.Rex bights Kong's arm he would have bitten it in half. T.Rex had jaws that could bite through steel, never mind a big load of ape meat and bone, but then Kong wouldn't have won.
That's why I liked Superboy Prime so much in IC because he was a nod to the implausible characters and their powers of old.

Well, there's implausible, and then there's impossible. Going faster than the speed of light and turning back time is implausible, and just about bordering impossible. Making the Earth turn backward by moving very fast around it, and as a result the Earth doesn't get destroyed, but time starts moving backward, that's impossible.

You can also look at it this way: the old stuff is simply bad, written by people with no concept of science, and haven't taken the time to do the proper research to get it right. Education improved, and we get to see it in all it's horrible glory.

The thing is; I can't turn off my logic, it's always running, in the background at least, but always running. When I watch something; logic is always accompanying it; and when something breaks all logic, I go "Foul!' automatically. If it breaks known laws of physics, I'm automatically looking for gaps/allowances/incomplete parts in those known laws of physics to explain what's on screen: all automatically.

[Kara Zor El]

Well, there's implausible, and then there's impossible. Going faster than the speed of light and turning back time is implausible, and just about bordering impossible. Making the Earth turn backward by moving very fast around it, and as a result the Earth doesn't get destroyed, but time starts moving backward, that's impossible.

You can also look at it this way: the old stuff is simply bad, written by people with no concept of science, and haven't taken the time to do the proper research to get it right. Education improved, and we get to see it in all it's horrible glory.

The thing is; I can't turn off my logic, it's always running, in the background at least, but always running. When I watch something; logic is always accompanying it; and when something breaks all logic, I go "Foul!' automatically. If it breaks known laws of physics, I'm automatically looking for gaps/allowances/incomplete parts in those known laws of physics to explain what's on screen: all automatically.

Your right - impossible I love impossible things. we're obviously very different. That old stuff with bad science gives me a buzz. It amuses me.
I reread War of the Worlds every year and one of the things I get off on the most is the Martian tech and the fact they haven't invented the wheel and they don't know what bugs are. But I understand your point of view and I'm probably in the minority here. Having said that, out of interest, how do you justify Superman being able to fly, shoot laser beams from his eys, see through things? How does Jor-El know so much about us? Why would Joe-El send Zod and co off into the phantom Zone when he knew Krypton was about explode? How does Lex have a base under Metropolis? You've justified the turning back time thing very well. I'm sold but what about having a go at those?

[Kara Zor El]

OK, I've just watched the audio commentary of Superman 2 the Richard Donner cut. And Tom Mankiewicz says to Richard Donner as they both watch the turning back time sequence - "Now of course this is all physical nonsense, turning the World backwards, all of us would fly out into space, and all the buildings and everything else. (Laughs)
Donner - "Don't... hey, lets not analyze it."
Mankiewicz - "But they don't because we say they don't."
So whatever logic fans apply, the original intent is obvious. But hey, lets not Analise it. ;)

[dupersuper]

Plus, it's pretty clear he flies the other way a few times to get it spinning right again. :rolleyes: Still, if you need to go with the time travel explanation to buy into the movie, knock yourself out.

[DeeSnider]

I'd always assumed he was travelling really fast out in space to go back in time. This was as an eight year old. Even then the idea of him reversing the earths rotation was so ridiculous I didn't even consider it. Then, as an adult my girlfriend said something about him "turning back the earth", and I was like "Do what now?", only to re-watch the movie and be pretty convinced that was the original intent. I was crushed. Then I watch the Donner cut of Superman II, and they did it again!

I've always wondered in the first instance, and subsequently watching the Donner cut of II, what are we supposed to assume happened to Superman's original actions? In I, it seems logical (in this illogical context) that there are two supermans running around saving people, but what about in II? It seems like Superman resumes life in the past, before Zod, et al. escape. So, where's the Superman from that past? And are Zod et al, back in the Phantom Zone?

[protege]

Recently I got into a discussion about the Reeve Superman movies on another forum, and the subject turned to the ending of that first film, in which Superman flies around the world and turns back time.

One poster mentioned that he'd always thought it was an extremely stupid concept, that reversing the Earth's rotation would reverse time.

At first I thought he was joking. When I saw the movie in 1978, I took it for granted that Superman was simply flying faster than light, in order to break the time-barrier and travel backward in time. After all, he'd been doing that in the comic books for decades. Seeing the Earth spin backwards, and all the events on the ground reversing themselves, seemed to me just an obvious visual way to show the effects of time travel.

It never occurred to me that he had physically stopped the world from turning, and forced it to go in the other direction.

But to my surprise, as more and more people weighed in on this discussion, it seemed that a fairly large number of people agreed with that poster. And regarded it as one of the most egregious flaws of the movie.

So, I'm curious...what do the rest of you think? Did Superman actually spin the Earth backwards at the end of the first Reeves movie? Or was he merely going backwards in time?

refresh my memory where you got your topic title from please...

[BYC]

Does it really matter? Superman already defies logic, so does the method he turns back time should be logical?

I can't remember what I thought when I first saw it, but nowadays, I joke about it spinning the Earth backwards just like everybody else.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I always assumed he flew so fast he travelled back in time.

Even as a 10 years old kid I could understand that making the world spin in the opposite direction would not make time flow backwards.

[Rik Levins]

refresh my memory where you got your topic title from please...

It's from a poem called Rock Me To Sleep, by Elizabeth Akers Allen. "Backward, turn backward, O Time, in thy flight,
"Make me a child again, just for tonight..."

There's a lot more, but that's all I remember of it. Shouldn't be hard to find online, though, if you're curious.

[Ontir]

I took it as he was traveling backward in time, and the Earth reversing itself was just the visual of that action, not that he actually spun the Earth itself back. The stop and start, stop and start would cause more damage than he was averting in the first place.

Once back in time, he caught the 2nd missile, thus saving Lois. Then, in the Donner Cut he traveled back again, and prevented the missiles from ripping the Phantom Zone open.

[Kara Zor El]

I took it as he was traveling backward in time, and the Earth reversing itself was just the visual of that action, not that he actually spun the Earth itself back. The stop and start, stop and start would cause more damage than he was averting in the first place.

Once back in time, he caught the 2nd missile, thus saving Lois. Then, in the Donner Cut he traveled back again, and prevented the missiles from ripping the Phantom Zone open.

He didn't catch the second missile. Because when Jimmy arrives on the scene he speaks of an earthquake as does Lois. So the missile still hit, but this time he does things a bit faster and so saves Lois before she can be hurt or does a better job of fixing the fault as it forms.

[dancj]

In the Superman comics at the time, flying in circles faster than light would make Superman travel through time. Wether he's traveling clockwise or anti-clockwise would decide whether he went forwards or backwards (which is blatantly stupid because whether it's clockwise or anti-clockwise would purely depend on what direction you were watching him from). This always seemed consistent with what the film did to me.

Dan