Superman or Captain Marvel?

[Preus]

Who do you think is the strongest between these two?

I'm not sure myself. Captain Marvel is pretty damn strong but even if he is stronger Superman would still have the advantage as he gets stronger from every little bit of sunlight he absorbs.

[jaguarshark]

Superman's the better character, IMO. I've got no idea who's stronger... read Kingdom Come if you really wanna know, I guess.

[Jack Zodiac]

Who do you think is the strongest between these two?

I'm not sure myself. Captain Marvel is pretty damn strong but even if he is stronger Superman would still have the advantage as he gets stronger from every little bit of sunlight he absorbs.

All of Captain Marvel's powers are magic, though, which is one of Superman's few weaknesses. His lightning had him bleeding out of his eyes in Kingdom Come, and he two-punch KOed him in an issue of JLA.

[Buried Alien]

Laying all other factors aside, I think it's a stalemate in raw strength.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Preus]

I never asked who's the better character, I said who's stronger.

Plus, I don't need to know who's stronger, I'm asking who people think is stronger.

[Preus]

All of Captain Marvel's powers are magic, though, which is one of Superman's few weaknesses. His lightning had him bleeding out of his eyes in Kingdom Come, and he two-punch KOed him in an issue of JLA.


Oh yeah, I forgot all about that whole "his powers are magic" thing.

By the way, is Captain Marvel immortal?

[Jack Zodiac]

Maybe as Captain Marvel. Billy Batson ages, of course, and can be killed easily as he's just a little kid, but as Captain Marvel, he might be immortal. Dunno'.

Again, in Kingdom Come, Billy had become a grown man, and when he spoke the word "Shazam," instead of becoming an even older Captain Marvel, he turned into exactly the same Captain Marvel he had when he was just a little kid, so the Captain Marvel persona is probably unaging.

[Buried Alien]

By the way, is Captain Marvel immortal?

Probably not, since he's famously known as the "World's Mightiest Mortal." It'd be strange to call him that if he were, in fact, immortal.

He is, however, probably extremely long-lived, making him effectively immortal if not literally so. In DC ONE MILLION, he was seen to still be around in the 853rd Century.



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[CaptainAwesome]

Buried Alien is right, Cap is mortal. I think the Wizard said it in the Power of Shazam GN, but I'm not altogether sure. I know I have read it somewhere, though.

Also, Cap can live much longer in his magic form than in his Batson form. This often leads people to believe that they are different characters, one Billy Batson and the other Captain Marvel and that they switch places when one says SHAZAM, but thats not true. Billy is Cap and Cap is Billy, same mind, different body. This is just a side note and really has nothing to do with the topic at all.

As for who is stronger? I would say its about even. I think each character has specific advantages to their powers, but in strength I would say they are even.

[Buried Alien]

Billy is Cap and Cap is Billy, same mind, different body.

It kind of depends on who's writing him/them, however. During the Bronze Age (1970s), when SHAZAM! was revived after decades in court-ordered limbo, DC tended to depict Billy and Captain Marvel as two distinct personas. This persisted until CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS wiped the slate clean.



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Pól Rua]

Who do you think is the strongest between these two?

I'm not sure myself. Captain Marvel is pretty damn strong but even if he is stronger Superman would still have the advantage as he gets stronger from every little bit of sunlight he absorbs.

Well, as DC comics is publishing both characters and Superman is their big cash cow and Captain Marvel is a character who challenged that cash cow back in the day...

Superman is stronger.

Other than that, their strength stems from pure narrativium, and waxes and wanes with the decisions of writers, editors and other creators.

Conceptually, Captain Marvel is the stronger character.

[Toreador]

Oh yeah, I forgot all about that whole "his powers are magic" thing.

By the way, is Captain Marvel immortal?

Probably not, since he's famously known as the "World's Mightiest Mortal." It'd be strange to call him that if he were, in fact, immortal.

He is, however, probably extremely long-lived, making him effectively immortal if not literally so. In DC ONE MILLION, he was seen to still be around in the 853rd Century.



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I do remember one story where Cap explains that the god's powers he receives augment each other with the power of Zeus adding to Solomon's wisdom, Hercule's strength, Atlas' stamina, Achilles' courage and Mercury's speed. Even his longevity is augmented by Zeus' immortality.

[jaguarshark]

Conceptually, Captain Marvel is the stronger character.
Heh. Whatever you say, munkee.

[karasu]

They're about equal since Marvel is a ripoff. Now that Superman is more powerful than usual, watch Marvels powers raise as well. But yeah, his powers are magical, so his lighting hurts supes and he knocked Superman out with two sucker punches in JLA #29. Not that it hurts him anymore than anything from the other heavy hitters though. Wonder Woman's powers are magical too, and Subjekt-17 drew blood with one punch :/

Superman beat the crap out of Marvel in JLU though.

[MythicBrawn]

I say Superman is stronger. But then does it matter if for example, Superman can lift 1,000 tons and Captain Marvel can only lift 900? It's like comparing the wealth of Lex Luthor and Bruce Wayne. There comes a point where it really doesn't matter. Plus, isn't it canon that Superman is the strongest DC character?

[superfriend]

Given the flux with the Captain Marvel role and what looks like Freddie taking over the mantle, I'd give it to Supes based on experience.

Now that Billy appears to be more powerful as the wizard, I think he'd be able to take Superman.

[Preus]

Maybe as Captain Marvel. Billy Batson ages, of course, and can be killed easily as he's just a little kid, but as Captain Marvel, he might be immortal. Dunno'.

Again, in Kingdom Come, Billy had become a grown man, and when he spoke the word "Shazam," instead of becoming an even older Captain Marvel, he turned into exactly the same Captain Marvel he had when he was just a little kid, so the Captain Marvel persona is probably unaging.


Just curious, what would happen if Billy Batson were to stay in the Captain Marvel form forever? Not trying to ask stupid questions, it's just that I don't know a whole lot about Captain Marvel's character.

[CaptainAwesome]

Just curious, what would happen if Billy Batson were to stay in the Captain Marvel form forever? Not trying to ask stupid questions, it's just that I don't know a whole lot about Captain Marvel's character.

While I think there is no real limit on how long he can stay in CM form, I dont think he can stay in it forever. Batson's body acts like a satallite for magic, which is what gives him the power of Shazam. The power is actually the wizards, and it drains the Wizard to give Billy power, so the longer he stays in the CM for the weaker the Wizard and if the Wizard is weaker then CM himself is weaker. In the future elseworlds-type stories, the Wizard is gone and all the power is Billy's. In the current DCU, the Wizard is dead so his power went to Billy but Billy's power doesnt go to Freddy. Freddy will get his powers from the Gods the same way the Wizard did. I suppose its relevant to note that the Wizard himself is actually in his magic form, similar to the way Billy changes into Captain Marvel. The Wizard is always in that form, but that is because his power comes from Gods and not from another mortal. That also explains why the Wizard is so old and why Billy could probably survive in the CM form much longer than his human form. I'm not sure if this all sounds like gibberish to you, but maybe someone else can explain it better than me.

[Preus]

I understand what you wrote, no need for anyone else to explain it. :D

[CaptainAwesome]

I understand what you wrote, no need for anyone else to explain it. :D

Im glad you did, I kind of zoned-out about halfway through and I was just hoping what I wrote made sense.

[JaeYu1]

Also, Cap can live much longer in his magic form than in his Batson form. This often leads people to believe that they are different characters, one Billy Batson and the other Captain Marvel and that they switch places when one says SHAZAM, but thats not true. Billy is Cap and Cap is Billy, same mind, different body. This is just a side note and really has nothing to do with the topic at all.

As for who is stronger? I would say its about even. I think each character has specific advantages to their powers, but in strength I would say they are even.

Actually, Eric Larsen's column mentioned that during C.C. Beck's run at Fawcett, that it was clearly established that Captain Marvel and Billy were two separate and distinct people and they did swap places (just like Rick Jones and Marvell). In fact, Eric mentioned an issue of Whiz Comics/Shazam! when Billy and Cap met.

As for strength, though Cap's powers are magical in nature, strength is simply strength, whether powered by magic or solar rays. Caps has portion of Hercules' strenth, while Superman has been shown to be stronger than Wonder Woman who is supposedly stronger than Hercules... so you figure it out.

[livin_target]

For superman vs cap marvel, I'd says supes is slightly stronger and faster, otherwise it would be kind of hard to explain why superman could even put up a fight against someone who is equally strong and fast but can also channel magic.

[Preus]

Yeah, Superman is stronger but what helps Marvel out is the fact that his powers are magical.

[karasu]

But magic isn't a weakness to Supes in the same way that kryptonite is. Is it? I always thought that magic was a weakness as in he's just as vulnerable to it it as anyone else. Not that it's some kind of huge advantage on Captain Marvel's or Wonder Womans points because their powers are from a magical source. I mean a punch is a punch. Like, a magical lightning bolt hurts him, but it doesn't necessarily take him out.

[mathew101281]

But magic isn't a weakness to Supes in the same way that kryptonite is. Is it? I always thought that magic was a weakness as in he's just as vulnerable to it it as anyone else. Not that it's some kind of huge advantage on Captain Marvel's or Wonder Womans points because their powers are from a magical source. I mean a punch is a punch. Like, a magical lightning bolt hurts him, but it doesn't necessarily take him out.

If a normal person was hit by Marvels lightning what would happen? the same thing should happen to Superman. Superman isn't week against magic he is simply not invulnerable to it.

[Preus]

I've always felt that magic should be Superman's only weakness.

[karasu]

If a normal person was hit by Marvels lightning what would happen? the same thing should happen to Superman. Superman isn't week against magic he is simply not invulnerable to it.


They'd probably die, but Superman hasn't.

[Rik Levins]

If a normal person was hit by Marvels lightning what would happen?

He would gain super-powers.

At least, that's what happened to the villainous Dr. Sivana in this comic:

http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=38115&zoom=4

Of course, if he already HAD powers, it might take them away. I think it would be funny if the magic lightning hit Superman and changed him into a powerless Clark Kent.

[Dr. Simian]

But more importantly, who's stronger....

SuperDuperman, or Captain Marbles???

[SensorBoy]

Marvel takes the title, physically ("Mightiest", and all).

Superman has more in his toolkit (x-ray vision, heat vision, etc).

[CaptainAwesome]

Actually, Eric Larsen's column mentioned that during C.C. Beck's run at Fawcett, that it was clearly established that Captain Marvel and Billy were two separate and distinct people and they did swap places (just like Rick Jones and Marvell). In fact, Eric mentioned an issue of Whiz Comics/Shazam! when Billy and Cap met.


I didnt know that, but you learn something new everyday,right? Either way, the current DCU version is both Billy and Marvel, not two different people. In the POS series, Ordway made it clear that they were the same guy.

[sugmasterflex]

Superman is better in every way. The only reason Marvel would be able to hang with Supes is because of his magical abilities.

[Devil_LeonX]

Typically Superman is depcited as being stronger then CM, but thats mostly because hes DCs main man, so ignoring fanism their about equal in every sense cept perhaps sups is faster.

[Preus]

Superman is better in every way. The only reason Marvel would be able to hang with Supes is because of his magical abilities.


Even if CM wasn't magic, I still think he'd be able to hang with Superman.

[marshal99]

Bet you must have loved the JLU episode "The clash". ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2BvSqqmidM

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Superman's been called the most powerful being on Earth more than once. So it is canon.

Since the question is who do I think is stronger, I'm gonna stick with Big Blue. The guy can move planets and can travel at FTL speeds. Besides, the source of Caps' powers is magic, but it doesn't mean that he can have magic-imbued fists.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

As for strength, though Cap's powers are magical in nature, strength is simply strength, whether powered by magic or solar rays. Caps has portion of Hercules' strenth, while Superman has been shown to be stronger than Wonder Woman who is supposedly stronger than Hercules... so you figure it out.

Not only that. I read somewhere once that he gets weaker when Mary Marvel and Marvel Jr. turn into their super-powered personas.

[JaeYu1]

Not only that. I read somewhere once that he gets weaker when Mary Marvel and Marvel Jr. turn into their super-powered personas.

Yeah, I think they put that in there to satisfy both Superman and Captain Marvel fans... lame! What a cop-out excuse! I still think Superman is stronger than Cap at full strength. And why do writers and fans keep on bring up the fact that Cap beat Supes twice when both times were sucker-punches! In JLA, Cap hit Supes while his back was turned and in JLA/JSA VIRTUES AND VICES, Supes was distracted by nympho Powergirl while Cap snuck up on Supes' back and sucker-punched him again! C'mon! Who WOULDN'T be distracted by a NYMPHO Powergirl?!? I'm asking ya!?!

[CaptainAwesome]

Yeah, I think they put that in there to satisfy both Superman and Captain Marvel fans... lame! What a cop-out excuse! I still think Superman is stronger than Cap at full strength. And why do writers and fans keep on bring up the fact that Cap beat Supes twice when both times were sucker-punches! In JLA, Cap hit Supes while his back was turned and in JLA/JSA VIRTUES AND VICES, Supes was distracted by nympho Powergirl while Cap snuck up on Supes' back and sucker-punched him again! C'mon! Who WOULDN'T be distracted by a NYMPHO Powergirl?!? I'm asking ya!?!

Dude. Thats his cousin. I mean...dude.

[JaeYu1]

Dude. Thats his cousin. I mean...dude.

Dude... that didn't stop the Dukes of Hazzard! Check out Beau Duke putting the moves on Daisy in the pilot episode! 'Sides, Powergirl is from Earth 2 and she's the O.G. Superman's cousin. I guess you could say P.G. is Earth-1 Supes's cousin by 2nd which would be perfectly legal. 'Sides they did a JLA special/annual where P.G. was going off about how hot Supes was to W.W. and Star until she realized Supes was hovering just behind her. P.G. always had a "thing" for Supes... she's kinky that way!

Though, funny thing, when P.G. was possessed by the spirit of Lust, she macked on Supes but turned down Cap HARD! LOL! That'll show you whose THE MAN in DCU!

[CaptainAwesome]

Dude... that didn't stop the Dukes of Hazzard! Check out Beau Duke putting the moves on Daisy in the pilot episode! 'Sides, Powergirl is from Earth 2 and she's the O.G. Superman's cousin. I guess you could say P.G. is Earth-1 Supes's cousin by 2nd which would be perfectly legal. 'Sides they did a JLA special/annual where P.G. was going off about how hot Supes was to W.W. and Star until she realized Supes was hovering just behind her. P.G. always had a "thing" for Supes... she's kinky that way!

Though, funny thing, when P.G. was possessed by the spirit of Lust, she macked on Supes but turned down Cap HARD! LOL! That'll show you whose THE MAN in DCU!

Well, i just hope the next generation of the DCU isnt a bunch of flipper-headed hillbillies.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Yeah, I think they put that in there to satisfy both Superman and Captain Marvel fans... lame! What a cop-out excuse! I still think Superman is stronger than Cap at full strength. And why do writers and fans keep on bring up the fact that Cap beat Supes twice when both times were sucker-punches! In JLA, Cap hit Supes while his back was turned and in JLA/JSA VIRTUES AND VICES, Supes was distracted by nympho Powergirl while Cap snuck up on Supes' back and sucker-punched him again! C'mon! Who WOULDN'T be distracted by a NYMPHO Powergirl?!? I'm asking ya!?!

Dude, I'm not the one who wouldn't be distracted. A nympho Powergirl? Did that REALLY happen?

*Runs to the comic book shop and orders JLA/JSA: Virtue and Vice*

[Jack Zodiac]

Yeah, the Seven Sins were freed from the Rock of Eternity and Lust possessed Power Girl. Also, Gluttony possessed Captain Marvel, which was hilarious, and I think Sloth took over Dr. Fate. Can't remember who else was possessed, it's been a couple years since I read it.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Hot damn.

*Aims the comic book shop seller with a magnum .357 and demands to get the comic NOW*

[MaxofSteel]

Yeah, the Seven Sins were freed from the Rock of Eternity and Lust possessed Power Girl. Also, Gluttony possessed Captain Marvel, which was hilarious, and I think Sloth took over Dr. Fate. Can't remember who else was possessed, it's been a couple years since I read it.

Didn't PG actually make out with Supes at one point? I couldv'e sworn there was a kiss panel there somewhere. And Ed McGuiness drew it right?

[JaeYu1]

Didn't PG actually make out with Supes at one point? I couldv'e sworn there was a kiss panel there somewhere. And Ed McGuiness drew it right?

Actually, I think you're thinking of JLA/JSA Virtues & Vices, where Power Girl tried to distract Superman by sticking her tongue down his throat... Hokey smokes!

[Jack Zodiac]

Didn't PG actually make out with Supes at one point? I couldv'e sworn there was a kiss panel there somewhere. And Ed McGuiness drew it right?

She licked his face. :p And it was Pacheco.

[Rockman]

She licked his face. :p And it was Pacheco.

Superman like "what the hell?" and powergirl seems to like it.;)

http://img130.imagevenue.com/loc24/th_66d7e_capsupes_ko2a.jpg (http://img130.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=66d7e_capsupes_ko2a.jpg)http://img129.imagevenue.com/loc24/th_18b92_capsupes_ko2b.jpg (http://img129.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=18b92_capsupes_ko2b.jpg)

[MaxofSteel]

Actually, I think you're thinking of JLA/JSA Virtues & Vices, where Power Girl tried to distract Superman by sticking her tongue down his throat... Hokey smokes!

She licked his face. And it was Pacheco.

Ah, I see. Thanx for the correction!:)

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Superman like "what the hell?" and powergirl seems to like it.;)

http://img130.imagevenue.com/loc24/th_66d7e_capsupes_ko2a.jpg (http://img130.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=66d7e_capsupes_ko2a.jpg)http://img129.imagevenue.com/loc24/th_18b92_capsupes_ko2b.jpg (http://img129.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=18b92_capsupes_ko2b.jpg)

Thanx for those scans.

[Preus]

Lol, is PG a cat or something? :p

Also, does anyone think that Superman & PG should hook up?

[SensorBoy]

Also, does anyone think that Superman & PG should hook up?

It's not like he's got a lot of choice if he is to continue the Kryptonian race.

Maybe a Daxamite chick. If Daxam is still in-continuity and still a Kryptonian-related world.

[MaxofSteel]

Also, does anyone think that Superman & PG should hook up?

Hey, If PG were my cousin from another dimension... I'd hit that.;):p

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Hey, If PG were my cousin from another dimension... I'd hit that.;):p

I second that. In an instant.

And how are Daxamites related to Kryptonians?

[SensorBoy]

And how are Daxamites related to Kryptonians?

At one point, Daxam was a Kryptonian colony, and the Eradicator (massive plot-device though it is) had altered the birth matrices to make the Daxamites vulnerable to Lead, instead of Kryptonite.

The Gands (Mon-El and his family) were somehow distantly related to the House of El.

I don't know if any of this is still in-continuity, though.

[Jack Zodiac]

Also, does anyone think that Superman & PG should hook up?

Eh, no... just no. First, second, third cousin, Earth-2, Earth-1, New Earth, don't matter, just no...

[Rockman]

Hey pre-crisis superman thought it was okay to kiss a cousin from another dimension.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/elisha_carmen/misc/supes-sgirl.jpg

[marshal99]

Pre-crisis , superman did hook up with Luma Lynai , a superheroine from another planet that looked like Power Girl with a similar costume.

http://supermanica.info/wiki/images/5/59/Luma_Lynai.jpg

[666MasterOfPuppets]

At one point, Daxam was a Kryptonian colony, and the Eradicator (massive plot-device though it is) had altered the birth matrices to make the Daxamites vulnerable to Lead, instead of Kryptonite.

The Gands (Mon-El and his family) were somehow distantly related to the House of El.

I don't know if any of this is still in-continuity, though.

Cool... Thanx for the info.

Hey pre-crisis superman thought it was okay to kiss a cousin from another dimension.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/elisha_carmen/misc/supes-sgirl.jpg

When did this happen? That isn't a Pre-Crisis image...

[Rockman]

Cool... Thanx for the info.



When did this happen? That isn't a Pre-Crisis image...



That from Supergirl #75 where on detoured on her way to Earth, the pre-Crisis Supergirl arrives in post-Crisis Leesburg. After learning that Kara is destined to die, Linda travels to the pre-Crisis universe in her place, where she marries Superman and bears a daughter named Ariella.

[Jack Zodiac]

Yeah, two things though.

One, Linda isn't related to Superman in any way. Not even slightly. She got her powers from the Matrix Supergirl, who also wasn't related to Superman.

Two, after she went to Earth-1 before the Crisis and impersonated Kara, she told Clark the truth, so he knew she wasn't his cousin.

[Rockman]

Yeah, two things though.

One, Linda isn't related to Superman in any way. Not even slightly. She got her powers from the Matrix Supergirl, who also wasn't related to Superman.

Two, after she went to Earth-1 before the Crisis and impersonated Kara, she told Clark the truth, so he knew she wasn't his cousin.

Shh, your ruin the fun of the fix image.;)

But had anybody read the pre-crisis story where superman fool lois by marrying a other superpower woman and at the end it was a revealed that it was supergirl all along. That was the pretending to be the other woman as a ruse to fool lois. Good crisis fun!:D

[Erebus]

http://img133.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=13d5d_capsupesarm1a.jpg

[666MasterOfPuppets]

That from Supergirl #75 where on detoured on her way to Earth, the pre-Crisis Supergirl arrives in post-Crisis Leesburg. After learning that Kara is destined to die, Linda travels to the pre-Crisis universe in her place, where she marries Superman and bears a daughter named Ariella.

Thanx for the info. Kinda complicated. I guess that's not in continuity anymore, right?

[LtMarvel]

It's as much in continuity as anything else...

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Meaning that we don't know for sure, I guess. There's a lot of stuff that shares the same situation...

[Preus]

Isn't Captain Marvel stronger than Superman?

[Rik Levins]

http://www.angrylambie.com/images/favorite%20art/superduperman.jpg

[Duy]

Wait, let me apply logic to this. I think the current incarnation of Superman is stronger than Cap, or New Earth Cap at least.

Cap has the strength of Hercules.
Wonder Woman is stronger than DC's strongest mythological god.
Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman.

Hence, Superman is stronger than Cap.

Conceptually at their core, I think they should be equal in strength. AND speed.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

If that happened, Superman wouldn't be as unique as he should be.

[caboose]

Wait, let me apply logic to this. I think the current incarnation of Superman is stronger than Cap, or New Earth Cap at least.

Cap has the strength of Hercules.
Wonder Woman is stronger than DC's strongest mythological god.
Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman.

Hence, Superman is stronger than Cap.

Conceptually at their core, I think they should be equal in strength. AND speed.

But hasn't it been established (recently as well) that the Greek Gods of Wonder Woman canon are different to their counterparts in Capatain Marvel?

[Shellhead]

Hey, If PG were my cousin from another dimension... I'd hit that.;):p

She may have big breasts, but Power Girl has usually been drawn as looking kind of butch.

[Preus]

I dated a mixed girl who was kind of tomboyish at first but became somewhat more girly & she reminded me of Power Girl because she had big breasts & was strong. Nothing wrong with that though, I'd totally do Power Girl.

[riddler]

u r all talkin about who's stronger superman or captain marvel what about black adam

[666MasterOfPuppets]

But hasn't it been established (recently as well) that the Greek Gods of Wonder Woman canon are different to their counterparts in Capatain Marvel?

Is that so? Where did you read that?

[666MasterOfPuppets]

u r all talkin about who's stronger superman or captain marvel what about black adam

Welcome to the boards, riddler.

Yeah, that's right. We're talking about Superman and Caps specifically. Between those two and Black Adam, well, it's another subject.

And Superman owns Caps. ;)

[Duy]

How about we all compromise and say that Superman in worlds where he is the premiere superhero is as strong as Captain Marvel in worlds where he is the premiere superhero?

Is that okay?

[caboose]

Is that so? Where did you read that?

I read it in a Trials of Shazam thread in the DC folder.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

That sounds extremely weird. I mean, that would mean that DC has two sets of Greek gods.

[caboose]

Any weirder than having half a dozen variations of Superman hanging about the New Earth Universe?

[666MasterOfPuppets]

No, but if I understood you correctly, that would mean that there are two sets of Greek gods in the same universe.

[Duy]

To be fair, Hercules and Mercury are Roman, and so that could be what the Trials thread meant.

[LtMarvel]

Not that I fully understand, but in Trails of Shazam, the gods have manifested themselves as human form, living among humans, often doing godly duties. In this new age of magic, the gods are vulnerable to death until the magic energies "settle."

Achillies, for instance, was a soldier on the lookout for supernatural outbreaks in the Iraqi desert.

[Preus]

666, Captain Marvel is much stronger than Superman now & I think he always has been.

[lovefist911]

I'd guess that Captain Marvel has always had an edge over Superman simply because of the power of the magic at his command. BUT, if you look to back in the old days when the Shazam power split into thirds between Billy, Mary and Freddy, then Supes had the edge. I love both these characters, reguardless of who was first. These two will never have the "end all, be all" of battles, I'd put that into a pair that would give us this fight, Black Adam vs Ultraman. THAT would be an all splash page fight.

Just for fun, here's Supes and Cap's first 3 covers fighting during the 70's.
well, the first one isn't Cap as we know him, but rather a multiverse version, and the cover of the JLA is wayyy misleading, as that fight was just a one panel deal. But, still covers that I love to this day. I'm a huge fan of these two throwing down.

http://comicspriceguide.com/cover2.asp?tid=981&cid=97836

http://comicspriceguide.com/cover2.asp?tid=6146&cid=136793

http://comicspriceguide.com/cover2.asp?tid=659&cid=87533

[666MasterOfPuppets]

666, Captain Marvel is much stronger than Superman now & I think he always has been.

That's a common misconception, my friend. You see, the fact that Caps has magic at his disposal doesn't automatically mean that he's more powerful than Superman. The magic gives him strength, but it doesn't make his fists "magical". All in all, magic is the source of his powers, which are strength, stamina, flight, invulnerability, wisdom, courage and speed. But Caps is no wizard, hence he can't cast spells at Superman other than the lightning (however, I think he took Shazam's place. That probably has granted him a wider grasp of magic).

[lovefist911]

"doesn't make his fists magical"? Captain Marvel cold clocked Superman in JLA #29. Doomsday couldn't even do that.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

That's the writer's POV. Superman has defeated Caps more than once.

[lovefist911]

And Cap has defeated Superman more than once as well. Superman once possessed the power of Shazam for a brief moment in Action Comics #768 and was in awe of the power. But I guess that's another "writer's POV". Superman has lost or fought to a standstill with Marvel more than he's won, Pre or Post-Crisis. Just give Captain Marvel his due already, he CAN beat superman.

[Rockman]

"doesn't make his fists magical"? Captain Marvel cold clocked Superman in JLA #29. Doomsday couldn't even do that.

Who's to say that superman couldn't do that that captain marvel.

[Toreador]

"doesn't make his fists magical"? Captain Marvel cold clocked Superman in JLA #29. Doomsday couldn't even do that.

The JLA comic had Marvel hitting Superman twice to knock him out and the first shot was a suprise attack.

[The Batman]

Yeah I think they called that the "Plot Convenience Punch".

[666MasterOfPuppets]

And Cap has defeated Superman more than once as well. Superman once possessed the power of Shazam for a brief moment in Action Comics #768 and was in awe of the power. But I guess that's another "writer's POV". Superman has lost or fought to a standstill with Marvel more than he's won, Pre or Post-Crisis. Just give Captain Marvel his due already, he CAN beat superman.

Yes, you guessed right. The strength of Hercules isn't greater than the strength of Superman. As a matter of fact, Superman is stronger than Hercules.

And I forgot to comment on your statement about Doomsday. Death Of Superman anyone?

[lovefist911]

Funny, 2 punches to KNOCK OUT Superman vs 4 issues of fighting to KILL him, and that's and argurment?

(Sigh) Do I have to mention the old silver age rivalry between Superman, Hercules and Atlas? They're not pushovers, neither is Captain Marvel.

[marshal99]

I'd guess that Captain Marvel has always had an edge over Superman simply because of the power of the magic at his command. BUT, if you look to back in the old days when the Shazam power split into thirds between Billy, Mary and Freddy, then Supes had the edge. I love both these characters, reguardless of who was first. These two will never have the "end all, be all" of battles, I'd put that into a pair that would give us this fight, Black Adam vs Ultraman. THAT would be an all splash page fight.

Just for fun, here's Supes and Cap's first 3 covers fighting during the 70's.
well, the first one isn't Cap as we know him, but rather a multiverse version, and the cover of the JLA is wayyy misleading, as that fight was just a one panel deal. But, still covers that I love to this day. I'm a huge fan of these two throwing down.

http://comicspriceguide.com/cover2.asp?tid=981&cid=97836

http://comicspriceguide.com/cover2.asp?tid=6146&cid=136793

http://comicspriceguide.com/cover2.asp?tid=659&cid=87533

To be fair , the first cover was captain thunder , not the real Marvel. Capt Thunder and superman were pretty evenly matched in the fight. The 2nd cover , superman won because marvel got distracted and also because the fight was on Earth 1 so that Marvel's connection to his gods wasn't as strong. The 3rd cover was misleading as there wasn't a fight at all.
Capt. Marvel has always been depicted as superman's equal but when it comes down to it , Superman is DC's iconic figure so he will come out supreme if push comes to shove.
Capt. Marvel defeated the earth 2 superman though in all star squadron as the earth 2 superman wasn't quite as powerful as his earth 1 counterpart.
In recent times , they have fought many times as well , when superman was taken over by eclipso , captain marvel fought him and tried to hold him down until the sun came up but unfortunately , wasn't able to do so as eclipsed superman got the better of him and was able to escape. Cap also lost an arm wrestling match in the power of shazam comic when CM3 & Mary took their share of the wizard's power and he lost.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/marshal99/comics/strength.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/marshal99/comics/supesvscap.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/marshal99/comics/supesvscap2.jpg

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Funny, 2 punches to KNOCK OUT Superman vs 4 issues of fighting to KILL him, and that's and argurment?

(Sigh) Do I have to mention the old silver age rivalry between Superman, Hercules and Atlas? Their not pushovers, neither is Captain Marvel.

Doomsday was responsible for the first Green Lantern Corps massacre. He was depicted as unstoppable. Do you think that Captain Marvel would have stopped Doomsday?

And I never said Captain Marvel is a pushover. I think you got me wrong there.

[lovefist911]

Damn, this stupid question could go on and on. Who knows what could've happened in a "Captain Marvel vs Doomsy" match. Where was he when Doomsday and Superman were fighting? I'd rather see the Doomsday that killed Superman fight the Savage green Hulk.

All Star Squadron #'s 36 & 37 were really good reads by the way. I recommend them to anyone who loves a good Supes vs Cap story.

http://comicspriceguide.com/cover2.asp?tid=224&cid=56804

http://comicspriceguide.com/cover2.asp?tid=224&cid=57428

[Preus]

That's a common misconception, my friend. You see, the fact that Caps has magic at his disposal doesn't automatically mean that he's more powerful than Superman. The magic gives him strength, but it doesn't make his fists "magical". All in all, magic is the source of his powers, which are strength, stamina, flight, invulnerability, wisdom, courage and speed. But Caps is no wizard, hence he can't cast spells at Superman other than the lightning (however, I think he took Shazam's place. That probably has granted him a wider grasp of magic).

I'm not saying that Captain Marvel is stronger because of his magic, he's just plain physically stronger. He cold clocked Superman & has beaten him more than once. Captain Marvel is much stronger, it's not a misconception.

[Preus]

Btw, there are plenty of people who could cold clock Superman & defeat him without much effort.

[Captain_Marvel]

Probably not, since he's famously known as the "World's Mightiest Mortal." It'd be strange to call him that if he were, in fact, immortal.

He is, however, probably extremely long-lived, making him effectively immortal if not literally so. In DC ONE MILLION, he was seen to still be around in the 853rd Century.



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Actually, Pre-Crisis Captain Marvel was immortal. A few story lines from the Pre-Crisis days had in one Cap telling Satan that he was immortal and another where Atlas explained to Marvel that he could only die if he willed it.

[Preus]

Lol, yeah, I never understood why he was called that but was in fact immortal. Doesn't really make sense.

[lovefist911]

maybe because he was mortal first, being Billy.

[Preus]

Yeah, but since he has the powers as Captain Marvel, that actually makes him immortal.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I'm not saying that Captain Marvel is stronger because of his magic, he's just plain physically stronger. He cold clocked Superman & has beaten him more than once. Captain Marvel is much stronger, it's not a misconception.

If you say so... And I know what you meant. Could you tell me some of Caps strength feats?

[GreenHornet]

Sorry I can't post it BUT I have a oversized comic of a Sup Vs CM hitting each other in the face at the same time w/ Mary Marvel and Supergirl flying to them in the corners.


Ok instead of fighting how about a strength match like a benchpress contest, and keep it to the Pre-wizard gone year. Since we know that Bill has given parts of his "powers" to Mary and Fred I would have to say that Clark has him in strength.

Now the best fight I have read was a huge cross over where Sup was under Red "K" and was taken everyone out and CM was "stirring the pot" with lines like "Its me the only hero STRONGER then you"

I hope that helps Now I would like to see what would happen if Black Adam was to go up against Ultraman of the CSA who by himself have defeated both E-1 & E-2s' Supermen soloed.

[lovefist911]

Ugh, yeah that was already discussed. All New Collector's Item C-58 is the treasury sized book your talking about that had a huge fight in it between the two. http://comicspriceguide.com/cover2.asp?tid=6146&cid=136793

And the Red K fight in Justice League of America #137 was hardly a fight, the cover is pretty much what we see in the one panel exchange between the two, hardly a fight, Cap just used magic to knock the Red K fever out of Supes. http://comicspriceguide.com/cover2.asp?tid=659&cid=87533

Now I hear that with the Multiverse back, we could see some CSA/CSA team ups, that might be our best chance to see a possible Black Adam/Ultraman fight. I think that would be really cool to see as well. Just think of that fight, neither one wouldn't care about civilian casulties the way Superman and Captain Marvel do. Badass fight right there.

[Preus]

I'd love to see Captain Marvel & Superman go all out & by all out I mean fight as hard as they can. Captain Marvel would probably whoop his ass flat out.

[Captain_Marvel]

I'd love to see Captain Marvel & Superman go all out & by all out I mean fight as hard as they can. Captain Marvel would probably whoop his ass flat out.

I seriously doubt DC would let that happen, given the long history between the two.

[Preus]

I never said they'd let it happen, I said I'd like to see it. If it did happen it could be in a "What If" issue or something to that extent.

[Duy]

And even then, it depends on which character is carrying the story.

[Preus]

Hell, it'd probably be a tie if both fought without restraint.

[marshal99]

I never said they'd let it happen, I said I'd like to see it. If it did happen it could be in a "What If" issue or something to that extent.

Hasn't they fought plenty over the years ? That pre-crisis giant sized treasury had them going all out , the classic kingdom come fight , the elseworld superman : distant fire.
And that superman annual where eclipso took over superman because eclipso superman certainly wasn't fighting with restraint.

[Preus]

1. "Hasn't they" isn't proper grammar.

2. I don't recall them ever going all out when fighting.

[marshal99]

Sorry Grammar police. :rolleyes:

I really don't know what you were expecting , how do you define as "going all out" ?

[Devil_LeonX]

In the JLU series, Capt seemed like he went all out but sups seem to rather fine.

[lovefist911]

DC is just plain BIAS when it comes to Captain Marvel, I like Superman first and foremost, but believe Cap needs his repect as well.

[Duy]

DC is just plain BIAS when it comes to Captain Marvel, I like Superman first and foremost, but believe Cap needs his repect as well.
Of course they are; Superman and Batman and Wonder Woman are their figureheads.

[lovefist911]

Yeah, but they BEAT Fawcett and later got their hands on Captain Marvel, I guess even then, Cap was looked at as "Another Superman". But he's not. Why doesn't DC want him to be a great character? It's not like he'd replace the big 3.

[Duy]

Yeah, but they BEAT Fawcett and later got their hands on Captain Marvel, I guess even then, Cap was looked at as "Another Superman". But he's not. Why doesn't DC want him to be a great character? It's not like he'd replace the big 3.
I think they're trying - Power of Shazam and Monster Society were good efforts - but the thing is, Superman was continually published for years upon years, so he's had time to adjust slowly to the tastes of each new generation. Cap went through a long 20 year sabbatical, and is still paying for it. Do you treat him whimsically? Can you do him dark? Can you try making him a regular superhero? All good questions, but since his series don't really sell well, we don't have good answers.

[lovefist911]

Sad, fustrasting, and true. hangman.

[Duy]

Sad, fustrasting, and true. hangman.
I do prefer Cap to Supes - marginally - but think about, for example, the 80s, when everything was grim and gritty. There was no way Captain Marvel was going to fit in as well as he did in the 40s. He got stuck in JLI, a comed series. He's just not as diverse as Supes is, and easily nowhere near as diverse as Bats.

[Preus]

Sorry Grammar police. :rolleyes:

I really don't know what you were expecting , how do you define as "going all out" ?

What else would I mean by going all out? Fighting without holding back which means fighting as hard as you can & using ALL of your strength.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Yeah, but they BEAT Fawcett and later got their hands on Captain Marvel, I guess even then, Cap was looked at as "Another Superman". But he's not. Why doesn't DC want him to be a great character? It's not like he'd replace the big 3.

That, I agree with. I used to think that Caps was just another Superman rip-off. That was a mistake. The whole thing behind him is quite interesting and very rich, actually.

[Preus]

Captain Marvel is actually somewhat of a better hero than Superman.

[lovefist911]

That, I agree with. I used to think that Caps was just another Superman rip-off. That was a mistake. The whole thing behind him is quite interesting and very rich, actually.

I guess with that being said, Maybe it's better Cap has a planet/universe of his own, seperate from Superman. Have you seen my thread sugguseting an All-Star Shazam?

[Duy]

Captain Marvel is actually somewhat of a better hero than Superman.
They have their pros and cons. You can't really do a romantic story using Cap (closest I've seen was the Billy/Courtney romance in JSA, and even that was cut short), but you can do oodles of them with Superman. At the same time, there's benefits to each one's secret identity... Cap being in mortal form as a little kid provides more intensity and tension to a sense of danger than Superman just being dressed up as mild-mannered Clark Kent, for example.

I prefer Cap, marginally, but I love them both.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I guess with that being said, Maybe it's better Cap has a planet/universe of his own, seperate from Superman. Have you seen my thread sugguseting an All-Star Shazam?

Nope, haven't seen it. But I think he already does. It's one of the 52 universes created during Infinite Crisis/52. An All-Star book focusing on that particular universe could be something good.

[Preus]

Captain Marvel needs more recognition. He has a lot of die-hard fans like me but they don't seem to be doing a lot with him, in the media that is. I want to see Captain Marvel with his own cartoon show & with his own live action movies. Cap needs more recognition!

[Duy]

That segment with Cap flying over Fawcett City in JLU just screams "Spin off".

[Preus]

I would love for that to happen but the episode aired almost three years ago so it probably means nothing.

[colossus20]

Hercules held the universe on his back. Captain Marvel has the strength of Hercules. Superman is an alien powered by one mid-sized star amidst that universe. Captain Marvel is stronger. Case closed.

I've always felt that Cap was the better hero of the two, although I do like Supes.

[lovefist911]

one-midsized YELLOW star. as long as Captain Marvel isn't near a blue star powered Superman, he is stronger. and with the powers of the Gods of old, he should be more skilled in combat. Superman does have an arsenal of powers though.

[The Batman]

Hercules held the universe on his back. Captain Marvel has the strength of Hercules. Superman is an alien powered by one mid-sized star amidst that universe. Captain Marvel is stronger. Case closed.

I've always felt that Cap was the better hero of the two, although I do like Supes.

Hercules was also a bit of a braggard known for his ability to exagerate his accomplishments.

Wasn't Hercules also a rapist? Weren't alot of those old gods rapists? I assume if Cap's getting their battle prowess he'll probably also get their libidoes and lack of respect for the word "no".

With the powers of the gods, no woman (and possibly no man) in Fawcett would be safe from Captain Marvel's crude, lusty, advances.

;)

[colossus20]

Power and personality are two different things. He inherits their strengths, not their weaknesses.

[The Batman]

My point is that Hercules would've probably oversold his accomplishments.

Also, wouldn't prowess in battle be more of a pyschological/personality trait than a physical one?

If Cap's gets the lust for battle from the gods that would propel them to be great warriors, why not the lust for other things?

[Stanlos]

Who do you think is the strongest between these two?

I'm not sure myself. Captain Marvel is pretty damn strong but even if he is stronger Superman would still have the advantage as he gets stronger from every little bit of sunlight he absorbs.

They are both based on Hercules from mythology. Had I read no DC Comics and were they with their own companies, I would deduce they were equal in strength.

[rZi]

Surely they have fought on multiple ocassions? and one of them must of lost at some time right? there was an episode of JLA where marvel and supes fought....i heard it was based on a comic too

[colossus20]

My point is that Hercules would've probably oversold his accomplishments.

Also, wouldn't prowess in battle be more of a pyschological/personality trait than a physical one?

If Cap's gets the lust for battle from the gods that would propel them to be great warriors, why not the lust for other things?

Because he's the ultimate force for goodness and purity, the Guardian of Virtue, the last line of defense against the Seven Deadly Sins. He has the wisdom of Solomon to balance his personality besides that. He is still Billy, no matter what his powers are.

[LtMarvel]

Superman has gone rogue and Captain Marvel took him out in one of those Eclipso crossover annuals (one of the Superman titles).

Captain Marvel sucker punched Superman in Morrison's JLA, knocking Superman out.

The Ultra-Humanite took over the world and most of the super powered people in JSA's "Stealing Thunder." Superman and Wonder Woman (and maybe someone else) knocked out Captain Marvel by striking him at the same time.

Kingdom Come was the big fight. Superman's invulnrability was increased (due to his advanced age with all those years under the yellow sun). Cap used his lightning strike there and it ended the same way that episode of Justice League Unlimited did.

Cap was under the control of the Spear of Destiny when he battled Earth-2 Superman in the All Star-Squadron. I'm afraid I don't recall how the fight turned out...pretty even, I think.

Crisis on Earth-S in the original Justice League of America was a short fight and deceptive.

Superman vs. Shazam! (the big tabloid) was another even match.

[Stanlos]

Superman has gone rogue and Captain Marvel took him out in one of those Eclipso crossover annuals (one of the Superman titles).



No no. That is not how that one went down. That one ended with Captain Marvel unable to continue the fight or help the heroes due to internal injuries.

But they blew up a lot of stuff so that was cool.

[matt_hatyber]

captian would waste his ass. superman has nothing on magic. and if superman killed him, that would prove that superman is a god. because he would bet the powers of the gods. but still captian marvel would rape his ass.

[lovefist911]

Superman has gone rogue and Captain Marvel took him out in one of those Eclipso crossover annuals (one of the Superman titles).

Captain Marvel sucker punched Superman in Morrison's JLA, knocking Superman out.

The Ultra-Humanite took over the world and most of the super powered people in JSA's "Stealing Thunder." Superman and Wonder Woman (and maybe someone else) knocked out Captain Marvel by striking him at the same time.

Kingdom Come was the big fight. Superman's invulnrability was increased (due to his advanced age with all those years under the yellow sun). Cap used his lightning strike there and it ended the same way that episode of Justice League Unlimited did.

Cap was under the control of the Spear of Destiny when he battled Earth-2 Superman in the All Star-Squadron. I'm afraid I don't recall how the fight turned out...pretty even, I think.

Crisis on Earth-S in the original Justice League of America was a short fight and deceptive.

Superman vs. Shazam! (the big tabloid) was another even match.

In the All-Star Squadron's #'s 36 & 37, Cap beats the hell out of Earth-2 Superman and E-2 Supes is frustrated by it. The Spear of Destiny controlled by Hitler took over Cap and made him a bad guy. Classic issues.

i see this arguement starting all over again, skip that and go back a couple of pages.

[the_hood]

i still think superman is superior than Capn Marvel

[lovefist911]

reasons for that?

[The Batman]

Superman is a more versatile character than Captain Marvel for my money. The character can work in a variety of comic storytypes from serious to silly while still essentially being Superman and he functions on his own, or as a member of a shared universe. The character, simply put, works better.

I've always been told, by Captain Marvel fans, that the Captain needs to be handled a certain specific way in order to work - he can't be taken too seriously, he doesn't work well in a shared universe, he's got to be lighthearted and whimsical, and so on.

[Duy]

Agreed, but when Cap works, Cap really really works.

[kello]

Isn't this an unfair question? superman is vulnerable to magic, and Captain Marvel is powered by magic. Although I still think Supes wins.:)

[The Batman]

^^^^

It isn't that Superman is any more vulnerable to magic than anyone else is, its that he isn't any less vulnerable to magic than anyone else is.

Thing is, Captain Marvel isn't casting spells on Superman.

[The Batman]

Agreed, but when Cap works, Cap really really works.

The same thing can be said for Superman.

Except that Superman works much more often and in a greater variety of ways. ;)

[Preus]

What are you guys talking about now?

[The Batman]

The notion that Superman is a better character because he's a more durable and versatile one.

[The Batman]

The notion that Superman is a better character because he's a more durable and versatile one.

[The Batman]

The notion that Superman is a better built character because he's more versatile and durable.

[colossus20]

^^^^

It isn't that Superman is any more vulnerable to magic than anyone else is, its that he isn't any less vulnerable to magic than anyone else is.

Thing is, Captain Marvel isn't casting spells on Superman.

Why is he not casting spells on Supes? How does that make sense?

[The Batman]

Because that's Zatanna or Dr. Strange's schtick, not Captain Marvel's.

[Preus]

Dude, next time, don't multipost.

Btw, as far as character goes, I can't really think of whose better. They are somewhat the same to an extent.

[Slaughter]

I think Superman wins because he has more powers. Marvel's just as strong, but Superman's faster and has other powers. In strength, I think they are evenly matched, a little more strenght on Supes' side, but matched.

Black Adam is a even match for Superman, on the other hand.

[lovefist911]

Black Adam would be a better match I think, even better would be Black Adam vs Thor.

[Preus]

Wait, is Black Adam stronger than Captain Marvel?

[crimson red]

It can go either way depending on the writer.

However, if you look at it objectively, CM is powered by magic and Superman is vulnerable to magic. I remember one JLA comic where CM knocked out Superman with his "magic" punch just so he can take Superman's place in what could have been a suicide mission.

Also, in the "justice" storyline, not sure which earth that is, CM is actually faster than Superman and Superman admits.

If you look at their win-loss stats, I would say it's about even, or perhaps even favor CM.

Now that Billy has replaced the wizard, I doubt the fight would be a fair match now.

[The Batman]

Wait, is Black Adam stronger than Captain Marvel?

Probably not.

He's just more ruthless and likely more willing to use his strength more freely.

[Preus]

Okay, I see.

[lovefist911]

I just realized that Sivana predates Luther(red hair and bald), Captain Marvel Jr predates Superboy, Mary Marvel predates Supergirl, Hoppy the Marvel Bunny predates any stupid super-animal, and Black Adam predates Zod.

How is Captain Marvel a knock off again?

[Duy]

I just realized that Sivana predates Luther(red hair and bald), Captain Marvel Jr predates Superboy, Mary Marvel predates Supergirl, Hoppy the Marvel Bunny predates any stupid super-animal, and Black Adam predates Zod.

How is Captain Marvel a knock off again?
I also think Cap flew first.

[lovefist911]

Yup. Superman was just leaping tall buildings back in the 40's. Good call.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I don't know who predated who, but I must admit, I used to think that. But giving it a little thought, I realized Caps wasn't a rip-off.

And yes, all the super-animals are stupid. I don't mind Krypto being around (EDIT: every once in a while, that is), though. But the moment I start seeing Beppo, Streaky and Comet, I think I'll have a seizure.

[lovefist911]

I don't know who predated who, but I must admit, I used to think that. But giving it a little thought, I realized Caps wasn't a rip-off.

And yes, all the super-animals are stupid. I don't mind Krypto being around (EDIT: every once in a while, that is), though. But the moment I start seeing Beppo, Streaky and Comet, I think I'll have a seizure.

Well chances are that with the multiverse back, We could see Beppo,Streaky and Comet again. I hope they never show up in All Star Superman either.

[Duy]

I love the super-animals.

Seriously, if you can't be silly, what's the point?

[ZNOP]

I don't know who predated who, but I must admit, I used to think that. But giving it a little thought, I realized Caps wasn't a rip-off.

"Superman" Action Comics #1 June 1938.

"Captain Marvel" originally published by Fawcett Comics and later by DC Comics. Created in 1939.

Nope, definitely no ripoffs here.

[Stanlos]

I don't know who predated who, but I must admit, I used to think that. But giving it a little thought, I realized Caps wasn't a rip-off.

And yes, all the super-animals are stupid. I don't mind Krypto being around (EDIT: every once in a while, that is), though. But the moment I start seeing Beppo, Streaky and Comet, I think I'll have a seizure.

If Cap is a rip off, then Supes is too. Siegel and Shuster were looking at a number of established heroes of myth and legend and they cut Superman from that same cloth deliberately, but modernized.

Later, Captain Marvel's creator looked at those same myths and legends in addition to Superman.

Later still, Wonder Woman looked at those very same myths and legends but also all the superheroes that had sprung up since the debut issue of Action.

[lovefist911]

I love the super-animals.

Seriously, if you can't be silly, what's the point?

Silly=Stupid. I can hardly stomach the chimp in Day of Vengence story.

[Joe Rice]

Silly=Stupid. I can hardly stomach the chimp in Day of Vengence story.

If you hate silly things, why read about guys in tights who fly and solve problems by hitting each other?

[lovefist911]

you're not witty or funny.

[Joe Rice]

you're not witty or funny.

I'm sure many would agree, but I wasn't trying to be.

Seriously, answer the question. What isn't silly about guys in tights with magic rings and lasers coming out of their eyes?

[AllisterH]

"Superman" Action Comics #1 June 1938.

"Captain Marvel" originally published by Fawcett Comics and later by DC Comics. Created in 1939.

Nope, definitely no ripoffs here.

Quite true, but it seems like the success of the Captain Marvel brand highly influenced the development of the rest of the Superman mythos.

Captain Marvel Jr's success couldn't have gone unnoticed for long (at times, CMjr's comic easily sold as much as the main comic) and voila, Superboy comes along.

We have Billy's sister becoming Captain Marvel as well and later on, Supergirl shows up.

Even the fact that Captain Marvel had flight and speed seems to have influenced the powers that Superman would eventually have.

Hell, I always considered the Fortress of Solitude to be inspired by the Rock of Eternity since they tended to be used in the same manner (Marvel et al would return to the Rock for advice from the dead wizard's spirit, while Supes would return to his Fortress to get advice from his "dad")

[Duy]

Silly=Stupid. I can hardly stomach the chimp in Day of Vengence story.
Whereas I find them hilarious and fantastical. To each their own.

And Joe's right. If you don't like silly/stupid things, then what're you doing reading about a guy who wears his underwear outside his tights?

[lovefist911]

"Trunks" not "underwear". I'll take the lesser of the 2 anyday. Super animals are pointless and lame, what does that have to do with reading super guys in tights? Nothing.

[Duy]

Different strokes.

Silly's fun for me. I wouldn't want super-animals in, say, Watchmen, but in Superman? Perfectly fine. It adds an additional layer of fantasy. There are mythological animals all over the place in fantasy books, so why can't our fantasy of a super guy in tights have a super pet?

[rZi]

Different strokes.

Silly's fun for me. I wouldn't want super-animals in, say, Watchmen, but in Superman? Perfectly fine. It adds an additional layer of fantasy. There are mythological animals all over the place in fantasy books, so why can't our fantasy of a super guy in tights have a super pet?

Please tell me your post is layer upon layer of sarcasm? If not you need to seriously re-consider...i mean krypto...a little dog with all the powers of supes and a cape? It's possibly the worst thing about the mythos

[Duy]

There's a dog.

From Krypton.

Absorbing the radiation of a yellow sun.

Logically, he WOULD have the powers of Superman.

The red cape is just charming.

Seriously speaking, the silliness is one of my favorite aspects. Handled right, it can be really charming. And I consider myself to be very lucky to be able to appreciate that silliness.

[Joe Rice]

I still don't understand how the rest of it is not silly.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Captain Marvel is originally a Superman knockoff who got bigger than Superman so that eventually Superman was altered to be more like Captain Marvel. Both characters influenced one another.

They are equal in strength.

Super-powered pets are silly. Silly is cool.

The rest of it - the capes, the secret identities, the fistfights - is silly too. It only gets boring when people start taking it too seriously.

Joe is witty and funny.

[Duy]

Captain Marvel is originally a Superman knockoff who got bigger than Superman so that eventually Superman was altered to be more like Captain Marvel. Both characters influenced one another.

They are equal in strength.

Super-powered pets are silly. Silly is cool.

The rest of it - the capes, the secret identities, the fistfights - is silly too. It only gets boring when people start taking it too seriously.

Joe is witty and funny.
I forget who said it on this board, but I thought it was a good point. One that I don't necessarily agree wholeheartedly with, but he said that superheroes were inherently absurd. You can add little realistic fluorishes, but that only heightens the absurdity.

Give me silly any day. Silly rules.

[hugh45]

Maybe it is kind of "silly" but we need some type of "realism" or
standard,otherwise, why stop w/silly animals.You can start adding
stupid sidekicks who gives you those lame one-line jokes,and so on,
and so on.

[LtMarvel]

Joe is witty and funny.

Sometimes intentionally.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Maybe it is kind of "silly" but we need some type of "realism" or
standard,otherwise, why stop w/silly animals.You can start adding
stupid sidekicks who gives you those lame one-line jokes,and so on,
and so on.

No, see, that's the trick. Just because it's extremely silly doesn't mean it has to be lame.

[rick]

Okay a couple of quick clarifications from the retentive comics fan.

A long running parody of the Flash, The Terrific Whatzit is the first of the Superpowered animal comic heroes.

Both Mary Marvel and Supergirl were created by Otto Binder, and in fact it was former Cap scribe Binder who created all sorts of those great 1950’s Superman bits, such as the Phantom Zone, Kandor and Krypto, which certainly helps explain why the two books had as much in common as they did.

[rick]

Please tell me your post is layer upon layer of sarcasm? If not you need to seriously re-consider...i mean krypto...a little dog with all the powers of supes and a cape? It's possibly the worst thing about the mythos


Naw, Krypto's great.

It's that weird Centaur turned into a Superhorse thing that always hit me as just plain wrong.

Once in awhile Comet turned into a human and he would always end up dating Supergirl who didn't know it was her horse. And then later when he'd turn back into a full fledged pony the stories would always seem to end with Supergirl riding him bareback.

Compared to that kind of stuff, the dog is cute.

[lovefist911]

No animal with any power will ever be cool.

[LtMarvel]

Hoppy will always be cool.

[Sabaition]

Captain Marvel is so not a copy of Superman, other then Strength, Speed and the ability to Fly, they have no other similar powers. Do I have to make a list of characters with those powers, cause it's a LONG list.

This has to be the oldest question in comic history. But I myself would say Marvel just because I feel he's the better fighter. PLUS, I do remember Marvel has beaten Superman ONCE in their battles. So CM 1 Superman -1 outta two many to recall. In current form though, hard to say cause we don't know what the New Captain will look like in battle once all his powers are reassembled.

I tell you what I would like. I would like to see what would happen if Marvel (for what ever reason) gave Superman the Power of Shazam. To fight Darksied or say Superman/boy Prime...

[Ekko]

Superman may not seem like much of a rip-off by today's standards, but that doesn't mean that he didn't seem like a much bigger knock off back when Superman was still pretty new.

And saying "If Cap is a knock-off of Superman, then Superman is a knock-off of Hercules, or Samson" or something like that doesn't really hold water to me. Imagine if right after the second Harry Potter book came out, another writer came up with a character, let's say a young teenage female who suddenly discovers she has vast magical powers because she is a half angel, is destined to face some great evil witch, and goes off to some mystical school to hone her powers, where she proceeds to get into misadventures. If said writer said that the character is no more of a rip-off of Harry Potter than Harry is of Merlin, who would buy that?

[Sabaition]

Well the point is calling Cap a knock off is just as meaningless in these debates.

But it comes to this for me. If the world is going to be destroyed who would you want as your last hope. An if that's the case, I just couldn't answer ya. Supermans Heat Vision and Super Breathe is next to usless against top level characters. Heck, it doesnt even slow Marvel, Darkseid or Doomday down. So it comes down to a fist fight.

We've seen Captain Marvel take a full punch from Superman and stand up. We haven't seen Superman take one from Marvel... HOWEVER, if we go by the belief that Black Adam and Marvel are equal in strength then Superman can take it too. But it also proves Marvel holds back like I always said seeing how Superman upon getting up said "Captain Marvel has never hit me that hard."

[Rik Levins]

Superman was pretty obviously ripped off from two sources: Philip Wylie's novel, Gladiator, and the Doc Savage pulp adventures, both written in the 1930's.
The elements taken from Hugo Danner are obvious: he could leap great distances, lift enormous weights, and was invulnerable, at least to anything less than a direct hit from an artillery shell. In fact, Wylie once threatened to sue Jerry Siegel for plagiarism, although he never carried through.
Doc Savage was often referred to as a "superman", and as "the man of bronze". He also had a hidden headquarters in the Arctic which he called the Fortress of Solitude. And his first name was Clark.

[Duy]

Hoppy will always be cool.
And so will Krypto. And Beppo, because monkeys rule. And Grodd. And the entirety of Gorilla City, while I'm at it.

And the Zoo Crew. Always, always the Zoo Crew.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Well chances are that with the multiverse back, We could see Beppo,Streaky and Comet again. I hope they never show up in All Star Superman either.

Hell no. AT least I hope and pray this doesn't happen in any universe.

"Superman" Action Comics #1 June 1938.

"Captain Marvel" originally published by Fawcett Comics and later by DC Comics. Created in 1939.

Nope, definitely no ripoffs here.

If Cap is a rip off, then Supes is too. Siegel and Shuster were looking at a number of established heroes of myth and legend and they cut Superman from that same cloth deliberately, but modernized.

Later, Captain Marvel's creator looked at those same myths and legends in addition to Superman.

Later still, Wonder Woman looked at those very same myths and legends but also all the superheroes that had sprung up since the debut issue of Action.

Well, yeah. Looking at the powers and whatnot, that's what one could say. But the origins are different, as is the source of each character's powers. Right? That's what I tried to convey, at least. I might be wrong, though. I'm not a scholar in Caps' history.

[Duy]

No, see, that's the trick. Just because it's extremely silly doesn't mean it has to be lame.

Weren't the original Captain Marvel stories extremely silly? And weren't they on top of the sales heap for a while? Silly can be very good. Just look at Through the Looking Glass. Or Peter Pan, which is a book I just finished reading, and was astounded by. There's nothing wrong with silliness, if silliness is handled right.

Naw, Krypto's great.

It's that weird Centaur turned into a Superhorse thing that always hit me as just plain wrong.

Once in awhile Comet turned into a human and he would always end up dating Supergirl who didn't know it was her horse. And then later when he'd turn back into a full fledged pony the stories would always seem to end with Supergirl riding him bareback.

Compared to that kind of stuff, the dog is cute.

Okay, I have to agree with you here. Comet is FREAKY. So so freaky. But not as freaky as that story where Superman is about to get married to someone who looks like an adult Kara, and at the very end, Kal and Kara decide that the only reason they can't marry each other is because they're Americans, because cousins can marry in other parts of the world.

Superman may not seem like much of a rip-off by today's standards, but that doesn't mean that he didn't seem like a much bigger knock off back when Superman was still pretty new.

And saying "If Cap is a knock-off of Superman, then Superman is a knock-off of Hercules, or Samson" or something like that doesn't really hold water to me. Imagine if right after the second Harry Potter book came out, another writer came up with a character, let's say a young teenage female who suddenly discovers she has vast magical powers because she is a half angel, is destined to face some great evil witch, and goes off to some mystical school to hone her powers, where she proceeds to get into misadventures. If said writer said that the character is no more of a rip-off of Harry Potter than Harry is of Merlin, who would buy that?

There was a bit of talk for a while as to whether or not Harry Potter was a ripoff of Tim Hunter. Neil Gaiman addressed it as him and JK Rowling most likely ripping off a mutual source.

In other words, it doesn't matter. Anyone can have an idea; it's what you do with the idea that matters, and Cap and Superman beyond the surface are nothing alike.

[Pól Rua]

There was a bit of talk for a while as to whether or not Harry Potter was a ripoff of Tim Hunter. Neil Gaiman addressed it as him and JK Rowling most likely ripping off a mutual source.
Luke Kirby fans, represent!
http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/k/kirby.htm

*sound of crickets*

In other words, it doesn't matter. Anyone can have an idea; it's what you do with the idea that matters, and Cap and Superman beyond the surface are nothing alike.
Exactly. An idea is one thing, but execution is something else altogether.

Oh yeah, and Super Monkies RULE!!!

Beppo, Titano, Detective Chimp, Grodd, Red Ghost's Super Apes, Gorilla City... Gold, brother! Money in the Bank! That's Right, A Whole BANK FULLA MONEY!

[lovefist911]

Captain Marvel is so not a copy of Superman, other then Strength, Speed and the ability to Fly, they have no other similar powers. Do I have to make a list of characters with those powers, cause it's a LONG list.

This has to be the oldest question in comic history. But I myself would say Marvel just because I feel he's the better fighter. PLUS, I do remember Marvel has beaten Superman ONCE in their battles. So CM 1 Superman -1 outta two many to recall. In current form though, hard to say cause we don't know what the New Captain will look like in battle once all his powers are reassembled.

I tell you what I would like. I would like to see what would happen if Marvel (for what ever reason) gave Superman the Power of Shazam. To fight Darksied or say Superman/boy Prime...

Superman did gain the power of Captain Marvel once in a crazy story in Action Comics #768.
http://comicspriceguide.com/cover2.asp?tid=198&cid=123152
He was in awe of the power Cap has.

[Pól Rua]

Superman did gain the power of Captain Marvel once in a crazy story in Action Comics #768.
http://comicspriceguide.com/cover2.asp?tid=198&cid=123152
He was in awe of the power Cap has.

Another kickarse story. Which led into the following issue, Superman & The Marvel Family, I believe.
Great two-parter.

edit: ah poo, I was thinking of the DC Comics Presents story. Never read the Action Comics Issue.

[marshal99]

Superman did gain the power of Captain Marvel once in a crazy story in Action Comics #768.
http://comicspriceguide.com/cover2.asp?tid=198&cid=123152
He was in awe of the power Cap has.

Personally , i found it to be a weak story and crap art.

If you want a story about powers switcheroo , should try DC comics present 33-34. Cap & Superman switched costumes and powers thanks to the 5d Imp
as Mxy teamup with Mr. Mind & King Kull.

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/22595846366.33.GIF

[rZi]

Can someone post some pictures of supes vs marvel? that should clear things up

[lovefist911]

How is that going to clear things up? I someone favors Cap, then they'll post Supes getting his ass kicked by him and vice versa.

[lovefist911]

How is that going to clear things up? If someone favors Cap, then they'll post Supes getting his ass kicked by him and vice versa.

[lovefist911]

How is that going to clear things up? If someone favors Cap, then they'll post Supes getting his ass kicked by him and vice versa.

[lovefist911]

sorry for the multi-post fellas.

[J.R.]

I'd love to say Supes, but I believe it's too close to call.

[marshal99]

Why does it have to be a clear winner ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/marshal99/comics/strength.jpg

[lovefist911]

I guess to show who is stronger and a better fighter.

[Malachi]

Who do you think is the strongest between these two?

I'm not sure myself. Captain Marvel is pretty damn strong but even if he is stronger Superman would still have the advantage as he gets stronger from every little bit of sunlight he absorbs.
I feel you on that but we do not even know if Cap has a limit to his strength. He may be able to tap into the power of Zeus or something. He did that when fighting the Spectre and he grew to a large size and supposedly changed his strength level.

[Malachi]

All of Captain Marvel's powers are magic, though, which is one of Superman's few weaknesses. His lightning had him bleeding out of his eyes in Kingdom Come, and he two-punch KOed him in an issue of JLA.

Yeah that has always confused me. They change it up every 5 years or so...They say he can o toe to toe with Superman because his powers are magic.. but Superman is not weakening when they throw blows and even if it is magi Cap still pound for pound is as strong as him because he gos up against other people as strong as Sups that magic does not effect. I understand it is magic..like with Black Adam and Superman Prime but still pound for pound he is just as strong.. I think they are messing up with that and what they trying to do

[Malachi]

Oh yeah, I forgot all about that whole "his powers are magic" thing.

By the way, is Captain Marvel immortal?
Captian Marvel is Mortal.. because he is the worlds mightest mortal. yet with his combined powers he is more powerful than any one of the Gods standing alone..lol

[TomServoFan]

Superman all the way! Captain Marvel is just a man powered by gods and he needs Kryptonite to stop him.

[BoosterBronze]

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/22595846366.33.GIF

Look how easily you can tell who's who, even in the wrong costume.

I wonder if that would work today, with each artist going so wild with exactly how to draw a character.

[Captain Smith]

Well, that's a way to take down Prime. Recharge a Marvel with all the magic. However, given the change of the magical world, is that possible now?

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I feel you on that but we do not even know if Cap has a limit to his strength. He may be able to tap into the power of Zeus or something. He did that when fighting the Spectre and he grew to a large size and supposedly changed his strength level.

He didn't tap into Zeus' power that time. It was the members of Shadowpact (Enchantress, IIRC) channeling all the magic into him.

[nuclearman]

superman ... i don't mind captain marvel ... and i have been enjoying the new cap in trials of shazam.. but supes is stronger and better.

[Preus]

I wouldn't say better but it's possible that he may be a little stronger.

[Khan Zor-El]

This is a question that will never be answered. I love them both. I like to think of Captain Marvel as the replacement if Superman is hurt or something And to the guy a few posts back that said Cap is just a guy powered by magic, uh, Supes is just an alien powered by the sun, so what? They're both the two greatest heroes any company would be lucky to have, it's just that DC for 30+ years has played down Captain Marvel (with few exceptions) and now we don't know the full extent of "Marvel's" power. I still love reading fights and team ups between the two, going all the way back from the mid 70's.

[soylantgreen]

This is definitely one of those things that could go either way, depending on who's story it is, but for my money, I've gotta give it to Supes.

[Advent]

Superman told the Infinity-Man in DoTNG #7 that he could shatter planets if he wanted to. Should we take his word for it or not? I personally think he's telling the truth, since Clark is not one to lie.

[Advent]

Edit: My browser is acting up.