Should The Joker be dead by now?

[Keehar]

Let me start off by saying I do not actually want the Joker killed off. He's my fav Batman villain. I'm just being hypothetical here.

Looking at the amount of evil and monstrous things the Joker has done over the years. The hundreds, maybe thousands of people he's killed, not to mention the amount of people close to Batman that he's hurt and killed, you'd think that someone would have bumped him off years ago.

I mean, he's not some super powered villain. He's a normal guy. All it would take is a bullet between the eyes. Run him down with a car. Poison his food in Arkham etc.

I know Batman has been sorely tempted to do it. And Commissoner Gordon too [you really, really can't blame that poor guy]. But, you'd think that someone from the family or friends of the many people Joker has slain, would have killed him or tried to kill him.

I've seen people say it's actually ridiculous that he's still alive. Anyone else agree??

[DWEarhart]

Maybe, but then Batman should have been killed off long ago too. So should have Nightwing (who, technically, did kill the Joker), and Robin, and others.

Batman's secret identity isn't exactly the worlds best kept secret any longer.
Someone could have been tortured enough into giving it up, or just being mind probed.

Joker still being alive just adds to his place as the true nemesis of Batman. Both are human, yet in a world filled with god-like beings, they live and they thrive with only their wits and their determination.

One light one dark.

[Kid Kyoto]

Well we all know the real reason, because Egghead just isn't quite ready to take over as Batman's arch enemy. :)

But the long-standing answer to this is if Batman kills the Joker the Joker has won and shown that everyone is just like him and will kill if things get bad enough.

I remember someone, somewhere (Grant Morrison) offered the answer that the Joker was some sort of force of chaos who possesses hosts, so he may in fact have died already. Not a bad idea but not really suited to Batman.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Like someone once suggested:

Prison Guard#1: With compliments from my sister who you killed 5 years ago....
Prison Guard#2 : And from my dead son.
BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM!
BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM!

Prison Guard #3 (bends over the corpse) : Look! He´s got a concealed weapon!

BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM!

[ChthonicSpirit]

Like someone once suggested:

Prison Guard#1: With compliments from my sister who you killed 5 years ago....
Prison Guard#2 : And from my dead son.
BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM!
BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM!

Prison Guard #3 (bends over the corpse) : Look! He´s got a concealed weapon!

BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM!

Exactly. Even if Batman won't kill the Joker, someone would have walked into Arkham and blown his head off by now. Or he would have been executed, given that he's been declared sane enough to stand trial in the past.

[choptop]

Well we all know the real reason, because Egghead just isn't quite ready to take over as Batman's arch enemy. :)

hey! dont dog my boy Egghead he may not be ready yet but givie him time +he's cool.:D

[OverMaster]

Well, one thing we have to consider is, we have already seen the Joker shot multiple times by cops, shot multiple times *and then trapped in an exploding plane over the sea*, hit by lightning, shot squarely in the face, falling into industrial chimneys, *and* still surviving all that.

I figure Gotham has just got the clue by now and stopped trying in vain. :p

[Effect]

There is still the option of slicing him up into little pieces, beheading, cutting him in half at the waste or from the head straight down.

I agree though that someone should have killed Joker off a lone time ago or tried to. This is part of why I enjoyed Under the Hood vol2 as much as I did and why I had a hard time being on Batman's side in that story in the end. Joker needs to be killed and should have been killed a long time ago. The character has just been written into that type of a corner think. Batman clearly can't get the job done. Another would have had to have gotten feed up with Joker and stepped on Batman's toes to get him.

I still hold to the opinion that no matter who killed Joker, as a results people in general would have to be written as praising and thank the character (hero in this case) I think for doing so and wouldn't want to charge him with anything even if Batman hunted that person down and handed him over the cops. I would think with the amount of death Joker has brought people would be extremely happy to see him killed.

[yourverysilly]

well, look, Batman should have died a few thousand times already too! people could try to kill the joker, but security in arkham being how it is...I mean he'll never stand regualar trial because he is insane, and security guards who have personal beefs with the joker wouldn't be employed.

Jesus! just suspend your disbelief guys!

[King Krypton]

I think the problem is that the Joker's been turned into such a one-note serial killer type that keeping him alive doesn't make a lot of sense. It seems like every time or almost every time he shows up, it turns into a slaughterhouse. Frankly, it's not only boring and diminishes him as a villain, but it really makes Gotham City law enforcement look stupid for not putting him down already. Batman won't kill him simply out of a moral choice, but why wouldn't he have been sent to the gas chamber or Ol' Sparky by now?

If you look at the Golden and Bronze Age Joker, as well as the animated version, the character wasn't a walking bloodbath. Dangerous? Yes. A killer? When it suited him, yes. But was it all he ever did? Nope. He had grandiose schemes and plots that often DIDN'T involve loss of life, or at least would only result in Batman's death. There was also a playfulness and sense of fun to him that's been absent for a quite a while now. With that Joker, there wasn't that feeling of "why hasn't this guy been kacked yet?" There was more variety and panache to him that made him worth keeping around. That's been lost, and in recent years all he seems to do is kill, kill, kill. He's not interesting or fun anymore, and as a result it makes perfect sense that people would be questioning why he's still alive after everything he's done. So yeah, I have to agree with the feeling that the Joker's been written into a corner. But then again, that's happened to a LOT of the DC icons post-Crisis.

[Chudy]

In my point of view Joker should be dead. In NML there was a brillant moment in Endgame, when Gordon have to decide whether kill Joker or be faithful to rules. The Death of Joker in Endgame by Rucka and Grayson could be an wonderful top of his carrier.

But no, boys from DC want to earn more and more money. That's why Joker live! And it's very pathetic. Just see, how he was used in War Crimes, Hush, Hush Returns and The Red Hood Saga. Writers of these stories don't understand this character. They only wanted to use him, 'cause they have known that it will be certain success. Financial success.

Joker was one of my favorite characters. WAS. Thanks to Loeb, Lieberman, Winnick, Willingham and Gabrych, things change. Good for him, if he would be dead.

P.S. Although Dini did great Joker story in Det' 826. But let face the truth - all hope is in Morrison hands.

[rwe1138]

In my point of view Joker should be dead. In NML there was a brillant moment in Endgame, when Gordon have to decide whether kill Joker or be faithful to rules. The Death of Joker in Endgame by Rucka and Grayson could be an wonderful top of his carrier.

That was awsome. After Joker killed Sarah Essen-Gordon, then surrendered to the cops, and Jim contemplated blowing his brains out. Even Bruce stepped aside and basically said, "If you do it, I won't stop you." And then Jim plugs him in the kneecap, which Joker finds hilarious: "My God! You shot me! I'm gonna be a cripple...Just like your daughter! Good one, Commissioner! Hahahahaha!" To have that much restraint, especially after all of No Man's Land, speaks volumes about Jim Gordon's character.

And don't forget, once Dick got so pissed, he did beat Joker to death in the Joker: Last Laugh event. Then someone (implied to have been Bruce) brought him back with CPR. That was an uneven storyline, but had some truly great moments with Barbara debating with Dick whether or not Joker should just be killed. Really, if anyone gets to do the deed, it should be Jim or Barbara Gordon. He's put them through more shit than anyone else, even Bruce.

[Kristofer]

When he does die, though, it's a very lame way.
I mean, I have always imagined the death of the greatest villian of all time to be some kind of huge event, lasting several pages long....but, no. In Kingdom Come, Magog just walks up to Joker as he is leaving the courtroom and fires his trident into his chest...not in battle, not dramatic...just in the most sissified pansy-like way...while Joker is in handcuffs and defenseless

[IamtheRock3]

they should be a story though where they least TRY to kill the Joker. A group of citezens.

And batman force to try to convince them why its wrong. Then it could have a flashback of Joker greates hits with the citezen charcter mix in. Or maybe they have Joker tied up and torturing him like Suicide Kings



But yea someone said in a thread I made about. If batman killed the Joker would anyone besdie him care. Someone said the exchange would go something


Batman to cop- I JUST KILLED THE JOKER arrest me

Cop- Dang its a nice day out today

Batman- I did it, I shot him, slice him to a 1000 peices and fead him to his dogs

Cop- Feels warm

Batman- are you listen

Cop- Boy I wonder if the Ice cream story open. Sure love ice cream..lalalalalla


also someone said it be weird if batman popularity grew after that for something he ashame of doing

[davids]

In the real world some beat cop sick of this nut job killing so many and getting free to kill so many more wouild just shoot him dead and put a throw away saturday night special in his hand and reprt he killed him in self defence!

Then agai he could piss of wonder woman and his head ight end up on a pike?

[Green Lantern wannabe]

Yeah, but so should Batman - he can't take on organized crime, not use a gun, and survive all these decades.

[VaultMan]

The Joker will go one day, but I think it'll be by his own hand. And of course, it would be the punchline.

[kel25]

Yeah the Joker should have been killed by many different people but the same could be be said about nearly all heroes and villians.

I honestly don't want him to die because he is to big to stay dead. I DESPISE the revolving door of death in comics.

[Kara Zor El]

Outside of comics the Joker would and should be dead. Although outside of comics he never would have escaped after being caught the first time and if he did then escaping twice would be out of the question. But inside the comics, he should be allowed out on his little killing sprees every now and then and most certainly never killed. Beaten? Yes. Brutalized? Most definitely. Tortured? Often.

[bigcomicbookfan]

well obviously as a non needed character in most stories youd think so but in many cases this is not so true.

[Keehar]

That's what I liked about Winnick's Red Hood arc. Someone finally seeked Joker out to punish him for something horrible that he'd done.

And even better was that Jason was making Batman's life hell because of it, too. But not because he failed to save him from Joker, but because he never avenged his death by killing Joker.

"I forgive you for not saving me Bruce. What I cannot forgive you about is HIM!!! Why is this psychotic piece of filth still alive??".

Loved it.

[Nefarius]

I think the problem is that the Joker's been turned into such a one-note serial killer type that keeping him alive doesn't make a lot of sense. It seems like every time or almost every time he shows up, it turns into a slaughterhouse. Frankly, it's not only boring and diminishes him as a villain, but it really makes Gotham City law enforcement look stupid for not putting him down already. Batman won't kill him simply out of a moral choice, but why wouldn't he have been sent to the gas chamber or Ol' Sparky by now?

If you look at the Golden and Bronze Age Joker, as well as the animated version, the character wasn't a walking bloodbath. Dangerous? Yes. A killer? When it suited him, yes. But was it all he ever did? Nope. He had grandiose schemes and plots that often DIDN'T involve loss of life, or at least would only result in Batman's death. There was also a playfulness and sense of fun to him that's been absent for a quite a while now. With that Joker, there wasn't that feeling of "why hasn't this guy been kacked yet?" There was more variety and panache to him that made him worth keeping around. That's been lost, and in recent years all he seems to do is kill, kill, kill. He's not interesting or fun anymore, and as a result it makes perfect sense that people would be questioning why he's still alive after everything he's done. So yeah, I have to agree with the feeling that the Joker's been written into a corner. But then again, that's happened to a LOT of the DC icons post-Crisis.


I agree.Joker is to boring beign just a killer without reason.Also i missed the old Joker who used strange traps and laughing gas to kill his victims.No,he use a handgun or a knife.Geez,that's not Joker,that's just a common serial killer dressed like Joker.....

[TheLazy]

Death means nothing in comic books, so in the Jokers defense, maybe he thought that all those people he killed would be retconned out at some point or another, making his actions null and void.

Also, you cant kill the joker because if the bat WAS ever to kill, it would be the joker, its that threat of him crossing over to punishers level that keeps people on their edge. God knows I'd have killed the joker for all he's done, but Batman is more composed, and more dedicated. He is what I never can be. I suspect its the same for many people.

:)

[Kara Zor El]

God knows I'd have killed the joker for all he's done, but Batman is more composed, and more dedicated. He is what I never can be. I suspect its the same for many people.
:)

Apperntly Batman is bringing a DVD out and doing some live motivation shows called, You too can be a Godamn Batman. $13.99 from most outlet stores in May. Maybe, if you aplied yourself to what the DVD says you can be just like him and let the Joker live.

[Morw]

The joker should be killed.

The cops would want him dead: heck he is a murdering manica that makes their life hell. And he has killed cops.

Civillians would want him dead: How many in Gotham has not been affected in some way by Joker? Had a family member, freinds, college, boyfreind/girlfreind killed or serius hurt by him?

The criminals would want him dead: He is a manica and you cant do busniss with him. he might kill you for a laugh.

heck the only one who dont want him dead is Batman.

They should make a comic about the joker on the run from everybody becouse everybody wants to kill him.

[TheLazy]

Apperntly Batman is bringing a DVD out and doing some live motivation shows called, You too can be a Godamn Batman. $13.99 from most outlet stores in May. Maybe, if you aplied yourself to what the DVD says you can be just like him and let the Joker live.

Ha-de-f******-ha

I meant moral wise, if someone paralysed someone close to you, killed someone close to you, and then made one of your oldest friends (gordan) go through hell, and you had the oppotunity to make it better with one action what would you do. Its the easy way out, which most of us take.

Maybe you wouldn't but im a karma kinda guy and I figure that after all the jokers done, your (mine, what ever) one act of evil would be made null by his 2 decades of it. But Im human and flawd, and desprately want to dress up like a giant bat, go figure

:)

[Eliseu Gouveia]

One death is not enough for all the misery Joker´s put people through.

[TheLazy]

Im not saying your actions would cancel his, but his actions would cancel yours

:)

[Kara Zor El]

Ha-de-f******-ha

I meant moral wise, if someone paralysed someone close to you, killed someone close to you, and then made one of your oldest friends (gordan) go through hell, and you had the oppotunity to make it better with one action what would you do. Its the easy way out, which most of us take.

Maybe you wouldn't but im a karma kinda guy and I figure that after all the jokers done, your (mine, what ever) one act of evil would be made null by his 2 decades of it. But Im human and flawd, and desprately want to dress up like a giant bat, go figure

:)

I know what you meant. I bet my girlfriend I could make a poster here write Ha-de-f******-ha, in a reply to a post of mine. She said it was impossible. I won.

Now to take your question a little more seriously as you deserve.

Most of us desire revenge and especially in the heat of the moment.

But look at Denise Bulger, mother of Jamie Bulger, a two year old who was lured to his death by two young boys. They tortured him and mutilated him and after a incarceration were eventually freed. They have new identities and it is forbidden for the press to reveal them to the public. Denise Bulger tracked one of them down recently and got to within a few feet of him. Not only did she not attack him, she didn't even confront him. He made her feel sick and I can't imagine what went on in her mind. But many of us would have cheered her if she had killed him. Ultimately she did the right thing because there is a high probability that it would have destroyed her.

[discodicky]

Read Detective Comics #826 and tell me that Paul Dini couldn't make the Joker great again.:D

[Keehar]

Read Detective Comics #826 and tell me that Paul Dini couldn't make the Joker great again.:D

Nobody is saying that the Joker isn't great, or that we want him dead. Just that logically, someone should have killed the bastard long ago.

He's hurt and killed so many people that there should be lynch mobs patrolling Gotham looking for him.

[discodicky]

By the same token most recurring villains should be dead. The problem with Joker is his unpredictability- no-one could actively plot to kill him.

[Joshua Pantalleresco]

Logically, yes. But this is comics. How old is Bruce Wayne?

JP

[Harding Prime]

Well, yeah...but whats the fun in that.

She should have been dead possibly 10 times since Hush. He was just shot in the head at the beginning of Morrison's run, but he is practically Bruce Willis as Unbreakable. Being a machicistic SOB helps with a large threshold of pain. And yea, its the comics. Grain of salt inserted.

[Belfast_Fanboy]

Dont forget that gordon talked batman out of killing joker before. And im surprised no one mentioned that in dark knight 100 someone takes out joker and batman has to save him!!!!!

Joker should have been killed by this new Gotham Kingpin "White shark" or what ever the hell he's called. There was niothing wrong with bring in a big name or at least a well known name in to take over gotham crime. Anyway joker should have been killen then it would have made more of an impact then anyone else and of course then we could of had a big return a few years later. The joker should be turned back tothe crazy clown of ALL crime he was. Period!!!

[Candyland_Assassin]

I am in agreeance that the character is just become very monotinous, but in all honesty, we know that if he ever did die, he'd just be resurrected again with some stupid plothole and create a lame storyline that goes on for far too long. So keep him alive and spare us please.

[brundlefly]

Well, yeah...but whats the fun in that.
...yea, its the comics. Grain of salt inserted.

Quoted for truth. Shouldn't the majority of comics characters "be dead by now?" All it takes is one stray bullet and Batman, Spidey, or any hero/villain who's not bulletproof are done for. But, like with the Joker, it's not going to happen unless the story calls for it, and if they're a major character they'll likely rise from the dead eventually. Joker's no different from any other human (i.e. not immortal/indestructable/unkillable) comics supervillain with a high body count and a lot of enemies. In the "real world,'' sure, he probably would have been executed or done in by a rival or enemy by now, but this isn't the real world, is it? He's too iconic and integral to the Batman universe to kill off simply because "realistically, he should be dead by now."

[captain_unimpressive]

Quoted for truth. Shouldn't the majority of comics characters "be dead by now?" All it takes is one stray bullet and Batman, Spidey, or any hero/villain who's not bulletproof are done for. But, like with the Joker, it's not going to happen unless the story calls for it, and if they're a major character they'll likely rise from the dead eventually. Joker's no different from any other human (i.e. not immortal/indestructable/unkillable) comics supervillain with a high body count and a lot of enemies. In the "real world,'' sure, he probably would have been executed or done in by a rival or enemy by now, but this isn't the real world, is it? He's too iconic and integral to the Batman universe to kill off simply because "realistically, he should be dead by now."

That, if I'm not mistaken, was basically the point of The Dark Knight Returns.
He said over and over how many times he should have died, how easily it would be for some young punk to take him out, how he's reached a new point in his life, one where death no longer feels distant and intangible.
And the general concession is that Batman hasn't killed the Joker because he feels that ending any human life, even one of a serial killer, would make him just like the one who killed his parents, even like the Joker himself--an idea that the Joker reminds him of contantly.
Thinking about it, it's odd how the major gripe fans have with Superman is his unwillingness to take life, yet Batman follows what's essentially the same moral code.

[karasu]

In my opinion, no character should be kept around simply because they're "iconic". That's so shallow. It's almost as bad as keeping them around because "it's a comic".:rolleyes: I don't know if the Joker has outlived his usefulness, but he should experience some sense of loss.

[captain_unimpressive]

In my opinion, no character should be kept around simply because they're "iconic". That's so shallow. It's almost as bad as keeping them around because "it's a comic".:rolleyes: I don't know if the Joker has outlived his usefulness, but he should experience some sense of loss.

Yeah. Imagine the grief he would feel if someone killed... wait... The Joker doesn't have any actual family or friends, does he?
Unless you count Harley Quinn. But I don't think he would.

[brundlefly]

In my opinion, no character should be kept around simply because they're "iconic". That's so shallow. It's almost as bad as keeping them around because "it's a comic".:rolleyes: I don't know if the Joker has outlived his usefulness, but he should experience some sense of loss.

Oh, I'm definitely all for character growth and progression (i.e. experiencing a loss, like you suggest) as opposed to characters remaining static and fixed in time. But I'm opposed to mindless kill-fests of long-standing characters with rationales as flimsy as "OMG, why havent they just killed the Joker already?" or "someone big needs to die in this crossover to make it seem more important." Particularly when the characters that die just get resurrected when a different writer wants to use them, or the death is ignored altogether. I'm a proponent of character progression, but character death/resurrection/death/resurrection, for no other reason that "in this issue, someone dies!!!" is just a pointless merry-go-round instead of a story with any depth.

[Keehar]

In my opinion, no character should be kept around simply because they're "iconic". That's so shallow.

Good point. It's the reason why Venom is still around in Spider-Man.

[jade_nova]

If they want to finally kill the Joker off they need to have him thrown in the sun. That will make sure he never comes back.

[filthysize]

The reason why The Joker will never get killed off? Writers love him. He's one of the most fun characters to write, as you can make silly jokes and do some fetishly sadistic stuff with him. He's a wild card character. You write any garbage coming out of his mouth or have him set up any ridiculous ploy and it still fits.

[Nefarius]

http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/2241438.html

Read it.This explain my feelings and has some great pictures.Also,explains why so many people want Joker dead.

[Doom]

The LiveJournal link is interesting, Nefarius. I think one of the flaws with his argument however is that the Joker has been around for 60 or so years. And in that time people wrote many, many different Joker's. And he's trying to pick out what is the quintesental Joker from it, but all he's getting is his favourite Joker.

The problem with this is...the Joker is an incredibly chaotic character. (I mean he's insane on a level that other crazy people aren't.) To such an extent he can be so random he can genuinely be written in almost any way and it could be argued he's In Character, since he's so crazy.

What this means is, I don't think we should be pigeon hold into JUST writing the Joker as a fun character with a bit of menace. I think at times he should descend into being a madman on the verge of mass slaughter, the kind of insanity that terrifies the Batman. Not all the time, it's just the Joker should have mood swings and go from one character type to another (as different writers use him.)

The problem with all this is...it still doesn't answer the Question. (A big point for me, given my avatar, as I'm sure you'll notice.)

How can we justify Batman not killing the Joker. Surely the Batman would get the point eventually, is the argument of some.

To that end, here's a story that I'd like to see written.

Have the Joker break out of Arkham and every goes looking for him. Major manhunt, expecting him to hit the regular places. Maybe show Batman really obsessing over this one, making the Bat-family all pull double shifts looking for Mister J. Yet nothing happens for a few days. While this is happening a group of criminals take the opportunity to take a bunch of hostages since everyone is so focused on stopping the Joker.

A tense race against time as it seems like the terrorist demands are going to be given into. All the Bat-family members (so spread out for looking for the Joker) are too far away to get there in time. Then in the middle of the hostage situation all the terrorists are disabled...with Joker gas.

The Joker came in and gassed the terrorists, released the hostages and then willingly let's himself get re-arrested by Batman. Goes back to jail without a struggle. And when Batman asks him why he did it, he tells him.

He's got to thinking (since, when you're incarcerated like that, you have a lot of time to sit and think.) about why Batman hasn't killed him. (He thinks he might change, and how Batman won't allow himself to kill.) And how likely was this to continue going on. (That eventually Batman would decide, based on all the pure evil the Joker's done, Batman is just valuing his moral code over the unnumerable lives of the Joker's future victims.) So the Joker decides to tip things in his favour, since he's not suicidally stupid. So the Joker does this.

That every once in a while the Joker will do something like this. A random, chaotic act of good. Because up until this, Batman kept saving the Joker's life on pure FAITH that he might reform. And eventually that faith would run out. But now that Joker did something like this? It'll always rattle around in the back of Batman's mind whenever he goes into battle against the Joker. And it'll be one little thing that'll convince Bat's to spare the Joker's life again and again.

But now? Now that Joker did something like this? Now Batman would NEVER kill Joker since this incident will always weigh in the back of his mind.

[CMBMOOL]

The LiveJournal link is interesting, Nefarius. I think one of the flaws with his argument however is that the Joker has been around for 60 or so years. And in that time people wrote many, many different Joker's. And he's trying to pick out what is the quintesental Joker from it, but all he's getting is his favourite Joker.

The problem with this is...the Joker is an incredibly chaotic character. (I mean he's insane on a level that other crazy people aren't.) To such an extent he can be so random he can genuinely be written in almost any way and it could be argued he's In Character, since he's so crazy.

What this means is, I don't think we should be pigeon hold into JUST writing the Joker as a fun character with a bit of menace. I think at times he should descend into being a madman on the verge of mass slaughter, the kind of insanity that terrifies the Batman. Not all the time, it's just the Joker should have mood swings and go from one character type to another (as different writers use him.)

The problem with all this is...it still doesn't answer the Question. (A big point for me, given my avatar, as I'm sure you'll notice.)

How can we justify Batman not killing the Joker. Surely the Batman would get the point eventually, is the argument of some.

To that end, here's a story that I'd like to see written.

Have the Joker break out of Arkham and every goes looking for him. Major manhunt, expecting him to hit the regular places. Maybe show Batman really obsessing over this one, making the Bat-family all pull double shifts looking for Mister J. Yet nothing happens for a few days. While this is happening a group of criminals take the opportunity to take a bunch of hostages since everyone is so focused on stopping the Joker.

A tense race against time as it seems like the terrorist demands are going to be given into. All the Bat-family members (so spread out for looking for the Joker) are too far away to get there in time. Then in the middle of the hostage situation all the terrorists are disabled...with Joker gas.

The Joker came in and gassed the terrorists, released the hostages and then willingly let's himself get re-arrested by Batman. Goes back to jail without a struggle. And when Batman asks him why he did it, he tells him.

He's got to thinking (since, when you're incarcerated like that, you have a lot of time to sit and think.) about why Batman hasn't killed him. (He thinks he might change, and how Batman won't allow himself to kill.) And how likely was this to continue going on. (That eventually Batman would decide, based on all the pure evil the Joker's done, Batman is just valuing his moral code over the unnumerable lives of the Joker's future victims.) So the Joker decides to tip things in his favour, since he's not suicidally stupid. So the Joker does this.

That every once in a while the Joker will do something like this. A random, chaotic act of good. Because up until this, Batman kept saving the Joker's life on pure FAITH that he might reform. And eventually that faith would run out. But now that Joker did something like this? It'll always rattle around in the back of Batman's mind whenever he goes into battle against the Joker. And it'll be one little thing that'll convince Bat's to spare the Joker's life again and again.

But now? Now that Joker did something like this? Now Batman would NEVER kill Joker since this incident will always weigh in the back of his mind.


Very Clever seniario that will even rattles the mind of Batman. :D

[Nefarius]

Well,to answer your question Doom,many writers wrote Joker as a simple over the top mass killer and to make him more interesting,they let him kill a member of the Bat-family or Gordon's to show him as the ultimate villain for Batman.This situation makes Batman ineffective and many fans start to think"why the heck he doesn't kill this SOB".My problem is that Joker turned by some writers like Greg Rucka or Chuck Dixon into a boring,predictable killer.To me,after the KILLING JOKE,DC turn Joker into a wanna be Carnage type of villain.He just kill,but kills without a style.Where are the deathtraps,where is the style,the comical side of crime.

Of course,this is my opinion and i believe that some may agree with me.

[rwe1138]

http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/2241438.html

Read it.This explain my feelings and has some great pictures.Also,explains why so many people want Joker dead.

Thanx for the link, man. I'd only read about half of those before. Good stuff.

[Maestro]

Why bother killing him when you KNOW he would come back? He's the premier Batman bad guy, as old as Batman himself. He's way too popular to be retired except in elseworlds stories

[IamtheRock3]

kind of like Ruckas's Joker in Gotham Central actully

was actully scary and smart

[filthysize]

The argument was kinda flawed in that the dude took only parts that suited his favorites. He said that Joker should be smart, calculative and not make silly pop culture references.

Well, in that Gotham Central arc that he lambasted, it was part of a big scheme. He wasn't being crazy impulsive. He had a plan.

Also, in that Dark Detective story that he championed, Joker made jokes about American Idol, which is one of the most off-putting pop culture reference I've seen Joker make in a comic.

[Nefarius]

The argument was kinda flawed in that the dude took only parts that suited his favorites. He said that Joker should be smart, calculative and not make silly pop culture references.

Well, in that Gotham Central arc that he lambasted, it was part of a big scheme. He wasn't being crazy impulsive. He had a plan.

Also, in that Dark Detective story that he championed, Joker made jokes about American Idol, which is one of the most off-putting pop culture reference I've seen Joker make in a comic.

Well i like Gotham Central arc and it's the only part that i disagree with the guy who write that post at livejournal.But everything he said are the same that i believe about the Joker.Ah,and i enjoyed the Dark Detective.It's one of my favourite recent story about the Joker(despite that i think that they ruined Two-Face).

[PunisherFan]

Yeah I honestly don't understand why Batman would let him live. He's only alive b/c he's popular, but the death he causes should be less that what he does. He's probably killed off a small continent by now. There must be like 90 billion people in Gotham or something. lol b/w Joker and all the other killing every issue in 3 different books. If there were a killer like this in real life people would be fighting to take him out. That'd be a good else-worlds one-shot...Have people fighting and beating the tar out of each other just to pull the switch on the electric chair, all while Joker sits there and throws insults at the fighters the whole time

[Citizen V]

No,The Joker is Batman`s ultimate villain,and i doubt the Joker would ever exist without the Batman and visa-versa.