Iron Man/Captain America: Casualties of War

[Sean Whitmore]

I figure this deserves its own thread, rather than being lumped in with the 3 or 4 other Iron Man-centric books this week.

Simply put, Casualties of War was so great it made me wanna kick puppies.

Cap and Tony made arguments that actually made SENSE. They used examples that made SENSE. And they poked holes in each others arguments with criticisms that made SENSE.

Cap makes the old argument about heroes revealing their identity. But instead of that being the end of it, Tony actually counters with the fact that registered heroes don't HAVE to reveal it. And Cap counters THAT with how easily the Mad Thinker could hack the info from a government database. That's how you write a debate. Not with one side saying something scathing and the other side responding with a solemn, puppy-dog look.

I've liked Civil War this whole time, but mainly as a fun, brainless "popcorn movie" comic. This may be the first time I thought it could actually work as a really intelligent, well-thought out story as well.

I got a real Magneto/Xavier vibe from some of the arguments made. Cap and Magneto are focused on the past..."They've screwed us before, they can't be trusted, we've gotta fix things by force." Tony and Xavier are focused on the future..."People are smarter now, it won't happen again, we've gotta fix things from the inside."

And the raging nerd in me appreciated all the flashbacks and such. This issue was such a continuity wank I felt like smoking a cigarette afterwards. :)

Gun to my head, I honestly cant think of one story by Christos Gage I've read before. But after this, I'll definitely be on the lookout for more.

[Omega Alpha]

Great issue. Very, very few books, if any, presented both sides in such an equally respectful way. I liked some of the flashbacks and mentions to things like the Project Wideawake.



Cap and Tony made arguments that actually made SENSE. They used examples that made SENSE. And they poked holes in each others arguments with criticisms that made SENSE.

Cap makes the old argument about heroes revealing their identity. But instead of that being the end of it, Tony actually counters with the fact that registered heroes don't HAVE to reveal it. And Cap counters THAT with how easily the Mad Thinker could hack the info from a government database. That's how you write a debate. Not with one side saying something scathing and the other side responding with a solemn, puppy-dog look.

Have you heard that, JMS?:mad:



I got a real Magneto/Xavier vibe from some of the arguments made. Cap and Magneto are focused on the past..."They've screwed us before, they can't be trusted, we've gotta fix things by force." Tony and Xavier are focused on the future..."People are smarter now, it won't happen again, we've gotta fix things from the inside."

I thought more or less the same thing. Although it can also be seen the other way around: Tony would be Magneto because of his way of dealing with problems and a somewhat ways justifies means approach, using methods even him sometimes are not very honorable, and Cap. and Xavier with a more idealistic approach, that things can go right in the end, while Tony and Magneto are more pessimistic (or realistic, if you prefer).


Gun to my head, I honestly cant think of one story by Christos Gage I've read before. But after this, I'll definitely be on the lookout for more.

He will be writing the (most likely unecessary) X-men tie of World War Hulk. Never read any of his other works either.

[Arilou]

Probably THE best Civil War issue to date.

It almost made the entire crossover worth it.

Very well done!

[The Lucky One]

Just reposting what I said in the other thread, as it still applies...

I liked it as well. Nothing critical or earth-shattering, but some really nice insight into the characters and their different perspectives... while I'm still decidely Anti-Reg, I can see Tony's point better. So kudos to Christos Gage for that.

On the other hand, it also -- intentionally or otherwise -- served to highlight just how incredibly hypocritical and off-target Tony's being as a whole. I almost burst out laughing at the one line.

"Well, their judgment was bad. Criminally so. Would you have fought Nitro in a populated area like that?"

Uh... well, yes, Tony, he would have. And so would you- you've each done it literally dozens if not hundreds of times in the past. Especially fighting someone who, based on all available past information, was little to no threat. That's what I still just can't get past with Civil War, no matter how hard I try: the New Warriors were right in what they did. Or if they weren't, they were just repeating the actions of every adult superhero who's ever lived. Before Tony worries about locking up Speedball and other noncompliant heroes, he and Reed had better turn that spotlight on themselves and do some criminal negligience time in the slammer for some incredibly dumb, irresponsible actions on their own parts. When they do that, then we can talk seriously about having them spearhead Registration.

But anyway, very fun if unessential issue. Or perhaps the MOST essential when it comes to actually understanding the different arguments; I haven't decided yet.

-D

[Psyco panda]

My first thought in reading this issue was

SOMEONE GETS IT!

This is the civil war i wanted to read. Both sides seem like reasonable people, with good points, and though you may think one side is right, you can see where the other side has some good points. It seems like Civil War has gone out of its way to avoid giving good reasons. The best reasons the antis have said in the main series is 'because its always been this way'.

On the other hand, to make Tony seem reasonable, they had to gloss over a few issues (secret negative zone prison, no trials, Goliaths death, Clor). I would have liked seeing them argue about that. But overall this issue is everything i wanted to see and more.

[miraclemet]

I'll write more in a bit, but I just have to say this.

If this 1 shot had come out after the 1st or second issue CW as a whole would have been better. Granted that would have meant the Goliath thing would have had to been pulled, but even if it came out right after that issue of CW it still would have been better than waiting till now.

I think it would have evened out the Pro/Anti-Reg camps and had a few more backers for Tony.

[miraclemet]

On the other hand, to make Tony seem reasonable, they had to gloss over a few issues (secret negative zone prison, no trials, Goliaths death, Clor). I would have liked seeing them argue about that. But overall this issue is everything i wanted to see and more.

I agree, I think that this week did more for CW than any other week.

Cap finally had to go into the grey area in War Crimes by working with the King Pin to meet his goals, and I say we need to see more of this!

The Pro-Reg side has made plenty of mistake (that Panda outlined above), but I'd like to see the Anti-Reg side do some questionable things to put them under the microscope. Maybe some quetionable tatics from the Punisher? More use of the Kingpin by Cap? I think some Anti-Reg people need to go off the deep end and take out one of the Pro-reg enforcers, or at least maybe a suprise attack on a SHIELD team, with Captain torn apart over it because "I knew those soldiers, I worked with those soldiers, I was those soldiers"

[roundman]

This was the single best installment of the entire Civil War. Excellent book.

[Pheonix-NoRelation]

Amazing Issue! Loved it from Page One all the way to the end. I think this book has actually turned me pro-reg. (Just a little bit :p )

[ForEverAncien]

Hmmmm, where is that post, when I replied, this early morning.
-Looking-

[mandog]

I want to add my voice to everyone who is saying this was a great book. It is hands down the best of any of the tie-in titles. If only Frontline had been written this well.

[Kirk G]

Probably THE best Civil War issue to date.

It almost made the entire crossover worth it.

Very well done!

I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY!

However, I felt the slugfest at the end was somewhat needless.
And I felt Tony shucking the armor was somewhat out of character. Also, I didn't think that Steve would have taken him up on it.

I really, REALLY enjoyed it!

This is how these comics ought to be written, instead of that silly, "Choosing Sides".... Did you know that advance copies of the SECOND printing have been sent to comic shops? Comic shops can't even GIVE the first printing away!:rolleyes:

[StoneGold]

However, I felt the slugfest at the end was somewhat needless.
And I felt Tony shucking the armor was somewhat out of character. Also, I didn't think that Steve would have taken him up on it.



Read the book again. They totally explain all the motivations there. During the fight scene, even. And keeripes, this book was almost like a bible to explain all the "this is so out-of-character!" cries whenever someone does something other than beat up Mole Man. This is all stuff they've done before, in one form or another.

[TotalWorldDomination]

I have to say, this book may just have restored my faith in marvel comics as a whole. Both sides were presented well, IM and Cap were writen like human beings, and for once someone who writes comics has paid as much attention to continuity as the people who read comics do!

This whole week made me happy, but this issue in particular was brilliant. Bendis, JSM and Jenkins could learn a thing or two from this book.

[superfriend]

Is this like a "patch" for the main series? Sounds like they're using these disparate issues to work out the bugs in the main series' portrayals.

I might have to go get this. Sounds essential.

[StoneGold]

Is this like a "patch" for the main series? Sounds like they're using these disparate issues to work out the bugs in the main series' portrayals.

I might have to go get this. Sounds essential.

It depends. If you're of the mind of "How dare they do this to these characters!" then it's a patch. If you remembered the fact that these characters have had similiar moments in the past, then it's just kind of stating the obvious.

[superfriend]

Gotcha. So, more about explaining how Cap and IM are at odds than Tony's descent into villainy. Hmmm. I'll skip it. Cap and IM have been at each other's throats before, I don't need convincing of that.

Thanks. Trying to keep the comic budget tight. Christmas is killing me. ;)

[Jmacq1]

I'd say it's absolutely essential if you want a "balanced" portrayal. Far and away the best tie-in yet. Particularly remarkable since this was (to my knowledge) a "fill in" that was produced on semi-short notice and help mitigate the scheduling problems with the main title. I think a lot of folks didn't have high expectations for these issues, but this one knocked it outta the park.

Marvel, if you're listening, Between "Union Jack" and especially this issue, you've got a serious talent in Mr. Gage. USE HIM!

[superfriend]

I read a Deadshot miniseries by Christos Gage and it was really excellent. I've heard really good things about his Union Jack miniseries as well.

[IamtheRock3]

think the delays partly, to have comics like this. To patch things up a bit so both sides are good

pretty good

[Christopher O]

I actually didn't care for this. I was fine with the motivations for Civil War and didn't see the need for spelling out the obvious. Nothing new was articulated here. I also felt that at this juncture, these two characters would not meet like that. It's way too late. Too many lines have been crossed. That being said, it really doesn't effect my enjoyment of Civil War proper. I just found it superfluous.

EDIT: I should mention that despite finding it unnecessary, I found it to be well-executed, as a stand-alone story.

[Will.S]

I really loved the book. Great arguments from both sides and very emotional towards the end, you really get a feel that they won't come together right after CW and pretend nothing happened. The flashbacks and use of history were great as well so Christos knew his stuff.

[The Shadow]

more about explaining how Cap and IM are at odds than Tony's descent into villainy.
No... more explaing the differing perspectives and how each side believes they are right.

Stark's about as much a villain as Cap is for breaking the law.

[The Shadow]

I've heard really good things about his Union Jack miniseries as well.

I just finished it last night... it was FANTASTIC!!!

Perkins did an awesome job on the art too.

[bulbasteve]

While I loved it and all. It did strike me as generic CBR debate with some more continuity and fights thrown in. Of course it is great to see it actually on the printed page and not just here, and the history lessons were REALLY well presented.

[stillanerd]

FINALLY, we get an idea where both Iron Man and Captain America are coming from and why they chose the sides they did--something which should have been established from the very beginning of Civil War, not something tagged in as an afterthought. What we have is classic argument between a realist (Iron Man) and an idealist (Captain America), each motivated by their own personal experiences when it comes to authority, who they should be accountable to, and how much power one should wield. This was the debate we should've gotten, and the scene Iron Man and Captain America should've had prior to SHRA passing.

Make no mistake--this is Marvel's way of taking the opportunity of the delay in the main series to do some damage control over how, contrary to their claim that there was "no right or wrong side" in Civil War, the overwhelming consenus is that the pro-registration side are seen as the "bad guys." The fact that this one-shot wasn't even originally planned until after the fact says a lot. Also, by making this issue occur between Civil War #5 and #6, it pretty much shoots a gaping hole in the idea that Iron Man had to lure Cap and the Secret Avengers into a trap via a phony distress signal in #3; if he could've lured Cap using the old Avengers code without any subterfuge all along, why the hell didn't he use it before things got ugly? It would've been better if this was a "flashback" issue that took place sometime between Civil #1 and #2 and thus the context of the debate would make more sense in the overall narrative. Still, at least we get some honest to goodness character motivation out of the deal.

[IamtheRock3]

FINALLY, we get an idea where both Iron Man and Captain America are coming from and why they chose the sides they did--something which should have been established from the very beginning of Civil War, not something tagged in as an afterthought. What we have is classic argument between a realist (Iron Man) and an idealist (Captain America), each motivated by their own personal experiences when it comes to authority, who they should be accountable to, and how much power one should wield. This was the debate we should've gotten, and the scene Iron Man and Captain America should've had prior to SHRA passing.

Make no mistake--this is Marvel's way of taking the opportunity of the delay in the main series to do some damage control over how, contrary to their claim that there was "no right or wrong side" in Civil War, the overwhelming consenus is that the pro-registration side are seen as the "bad guys." The fact that this one-shot wasn't even originally planned until after the fact says a lot. Also, by making this issue occur between Civil War #5 and #6, it pretty much shoots a gaping hole in the idea that Iron Man had to lure Cap and the Secret Avengers into a trap via a phony distress signal in #3; if he could've lured Cap using the old Avengers code without any subterfuge all along, why the hell didn't he use it before things got ugly? It would've been better if this was a "flashback" issue that took place sometime between Civil #1 and #2 and thus the context of the debate would make more sense in the overall narative. Still, at least we get some honest to goodness character motivation out of the deal.


also make more sense, Because Cap didnt bring up some of the more IFFY stuff that happen in Cival war


good debat though

How tony SHOULD of been

[The Shadow]

How tony SHOULD of been

You mean has been written... just not in as many places.

Read the Ms Marvel issues, the New Avengers Iron Man issue, Iron Man's own book or the Amazing SPider-Man issues (and prelude). The characterization is there... people just ignore it or don't see it presented enough.

[IamtheRock3]

You mean has been written... just not in as many places.

Read the Ms Marvel issues, the New Avengers Iron Man issue, Iron Man's own book or the Amazing SPider-Man issues (and prelude). The characterization is there... people just ignore it or don't see it presented enough.



Well to be Fair just been Reading CIVAL WAR proper, Frontline, and some one shots

which kind of where most of the explanation SHOULD be. You know what have this coversation in the Cival War comic. they two have two minis that the main two comics. Instead of focusing page in frontline to the lame real life war paralells, do some stuff like we have here.




I mean dont think people should have to pick up all those books for him to make sense

I did read Ammazing Spiderman cause I was expecting a big fight (Which it wasnt), tony aint coming on peaches their though. Maybe early spiderman books he did

[bulbasteve]

You mean has been written... just not in as many places.

Read the Ms Marvel issues, the New Avengers Iron Man issue, Iron Man's own book or the Amazing SPider-Man issues (and prelude). The characterization is there... people just ignore it or don't see it presented enough.


Wait a minute...the New Avengers Iron Man issue had nothing to do with Civil War like ....at all. Hell it didn't even have much to do with Tony...

[oneasian]

i picked up the issue but i havent read it yet.
ign gave it an okay review, but after i came here, i felt better about buying it!

i'm definately going to read this soon, but there's just one question i have to ask:

Does Cap say anything about the Thor Clone? like, "if you clone me, it's WWIII"

i just think that whole "cloning your friends" thing is something Cap would be worried about, especially after what's already happene in the CW regular series.

[Blackcat]

Does it only contain Ironman and Cap. America, or do other characters also appear in this issue?

[StoneGold]

i picked up the issue but i havent read it yet.
ign gave it an okay review, but after i came here, i felt better about buying it!

i'm definately going to read this soon, but there's just one question i have to ask:

Does Cap say anything about the Thor Clone? like, "if you clone me, it's WWIII"

i just think that whole "cloning your friends" thing is something Cap would be worried about, especially after what's already happene in the CW regular series.

I've said it before, but it all depends on what kind of clones we're talking about here. Souless automotons that are little more than fleshy robot cannon fodder, that inevitably melt into biological goo, or something more like the clone that replaced Kenny Rogers back in 1987.

[Magneto Rocks]

Does it only contain Ironman and Cap. America, or do other characters also appear in this issue?

It's just IM and Cap, though other characters appear and are mentioned in flashbacks.

9.5/10 - DEFINITELY one of the best Civil War weeks ever. The writer got both characters so well. Particularly loved that little exchange-
Tony- "Who would have arrested me?"
Cap- "We police ourselves! Remember Hank hitting Jan?"
Tony- "Interesting hank's on my side, isn't it?"

Little exchanges like that, a real argument, not just, as someone said before, "one person makes an argument and the other shakes his head"

Some of them DIRECTLY paralleled these very boards, particularly
Cap- "You killed Goliath!"
Tony- "In a fight YOU started!"
Cap- "Because YOU took out Cloak and Wiccan!"

Fantastic issue. Didn't quite "get" the fight at the end as Tony looks like a moron in that suit, but still. The last page alone was superb.

[The Shadow]

Well to be Fair just been Reading CIVAL WAR proper, Frontline, and some one shots

which kind of where most of the explanation SHOULD be.
I sort of agree... if CW had been longer thenYES it should have been... but CW proper is where all the big things happen... not little things. Front line is the normal persons view of the CW so, again, not the best place for it.

[superfriend]

No... more explaing the differing perspectives and how each side believes they are right.

Stark's about as much a villain as Cap is for breaking the law.

You really think so?

I feel like while Cap may technically be wrong by the letter of the law, but he's comported himself in a fairly noble manner.

Iron Man, on the other hand, while being technically right seems to have violated the spirit of the law and used more underhanded tactics to achieve his goals.

I just can't see how things like Clor or the Negative Zone prison detainment sans due process can be justified.

Cap isn't registering and is on the lam. IM is violating human rights and murdering people.

Seemingly equitable in how wrong both actions are, but there is a matter of degree I can't get around.

[AceOfSpades]

God.. i so NEED to get to my comic shop this week.. I missed so much I want to pick up:mad:

[Sijo]

This is indeed the kind of meeting that should have been featured in the main series, and with all that background (though maybe shortened.) This isn't some sidebar to the story, it's about the relationship between the two main characters. And I just can't believe this takes place AFTER the Clor incident- this is what they should've done in the first place; now that the truth of Tony's actions has come out (or the fact that Cap almost took Tony down) I just don't see them trusting each other to meet privately. And then there's Iron Man #14, where Iron Man tries to talk *again* with Cap, only to be attacked, and then he defeats them and just leaves? Does that make sense? Or is it an attempt to "reverse" the events of 3-4 so that Tony looks like the good guy? The poor CW tie-in coordination continues.

[Magneto Rocks]

Cap isn't registering and is on the lam. IM is violating human rights and murdering people.


Best case scn for anti-reggers, he is guilty of manslaughter. Certainly not murder.

The poor CW tie-in coordination continues.

No.. it's pretty obvious really. They meet, and it ends in fisticuffs. Therefore, IM #14 they are in no mood to talk. It's actually an example of GOOD civil war co-ordination, which there has been a lot of.

In a crossover spanning 100+ books, I can name maybe 10, MAYBE instances of bad co-ordination. That's a phenomenal job by the editors.

[superfriend]

Best case scn for anti-reggers, he is guilty of manslaughter. Certainly not murder.

I agree. But that's semantics don't you think? I mean, in brass tacks terms, chalk one death up the pro-side and none up to the anti-side.

That's how I'm looking at it.

[Mike Marino]

All in all, like most people here I really enjoyed this issue. I guess we should be happy about the civil war delays, because without those, this issue wouldn't have happened. That is, if I'm remembering correctly.

I agree with a bunch of the others that the fist fight at the end was a bit silly, but even that worked well in the context of the story. I'm just glad we finally got to see Cap and Iron Man written as how we all thought they would act in Civil War, as opposed to what we've seen in books like AMS, CW, and others.

[Magneto Rocks]

I agree. But that's semantics don't you think? I mean, in brass tacks terms, chalk one death up the pro-side and none up to the anti-side.

That's how I'm looking at it.

Read Frontline #2.

Chalk one death up to the anti side.

The death of Cee could technically be viewed as Manslaughter since it was largely a result of an attack by the ANTI side.

Chalk 2 deaths up.

The Jester and Jack O'Lantern- villains they may be, but they are STILL living, breathing human beings and they matter.

Chalk 4 deaths up.

[superfriend]

Read Frontline #2.

Chalk one death up to the anti side.

The death of Cee could technically be viewed as Manslaughter since it was largely a result of an attack by the ANTI side.

Chalk 2 deaths up.

The Jester and Jack O'Lantern- villains they may be, but they are STILL living, breathing human beings and they matter.

Chalk 4 deaths up.

Good point.
And yet, I don't see Punisher's actions as a reflection on Cap--more like individuals are going to have to be accountable to themselves due to the scattered nature of the anti-side. But everything that happens on behalf of the Pro side, I attribute to Iron Man.

I guess I hold the pro-side to a higher standard. Sort've like America is held to a higher standard in the War on Terror. Terrorists torture people but America should never do it to captured terrorist because it's inhumane. Is that even fair I wonder?

But you are right, the anti-side is more to blame for deaths than the pro-side. I only read the main series so thanks for the info.

[Psyco panda]

Best case scn for anti-reggers, he is guilty of manslaughter. Certainly not murder.

Negligent Homicide is still homicide.

It hurts Tony's argument, because he's arguing superheroes need to be held accountable. But whos being held accountable for Goliaths death? no one, that we've seen.

Its the problem with working for a government; they aren't good at holding themselves accountable for anything. Its like the Iraq situation or the Waco, Texas thing under Clinton. Government screws up, people die. Government, worried at the political blowback, denies the problem, applauds those people who committed the crime. Problem gets buried. People are dead and no one is held accountable.

[The Shadow]

Iron Man, on the other hand, while being technically right seems to have violated the spirit of the law and used more underhanded tactics to achieve his goals.
I think the old saying "the path to hell is paved with good intentions" is applicable here.

I just can't see how things like Clor or the Negative Zone prison detainment sans due process can be justified.
The same as Guantanimo is justified... it's the lesser evil.

And it's not like this is all one big idea by Tony Stark... the President, US government and SHIELD are all in on it. Stark is just the public face.

[QUOTE=superfriend;4145683]IM is violating human rights and murdering people.
... who did IM murder??????????

[The Shadow]

Best case scn for anti-reggers, he is guilty of manslaughter. Certainly not murder.

How?

Are the guys that created the atomic bomb guilty of manslaughter? If the clone is just a weapon how can Stark (and what about Reed, Hank and all the SHIELD scientists not being mentioned here) be held accountable?

[kingmob]

Frank Castle puts the laughter in manslaughter.

[IamtheRock3]

I sort of agree... if CW had been longer thenYES it should have been... but CW proper is where all the big things happen... not little things. Front line is the normal persons view of the CW so, again, not the best place for it.



Front line, and the One shots, and CW amout to a lot of story pages though. Think they could of fit this in earlyer

[christosgage]

Glad most people seemed to like the issue. Regarding the fight at the end, it wasn't meant to be so much "combat" as a barroom brawl...the frustration of these two men boiling over at the fact that they can't find a common ground and their friendship is dying in front of their eyes. That's why it was so ugly and uncoordinated and why it ended as suddenly as it began.

Thanks for reading it!

Best,

CNG

[IamtheRock3]

I think the old saying "the path to hell is paved with good intentions" is applicable here.


The same as Guantanimo is justified... it's the lesser evil.

[QUOTE=superfriend;4145683]And it's not like this is all one big idea by Tony Stark... the President, US government and SHIELD are all in on it. Stark is just the public face.


... who did IM murder??????????



think with Guatamo is your "suspose" dealing with people who want to kill, wouldnt say the same for Cap


No matter what one think of the heroes, it be hard to argue there not less worst then say, some dude chopping reporters heads off. Reason why they harmed civlain IRAQ, is people dress as civlains to attack our troops. So we freaked out a bit


Also IRAQ we were kind of doing badly over there when we went to extreme

considering that The pro's outnumber and outpower the anti's by a VAST amounts

And really they say they go to extreme to avoid deaths. Really how many times have Stamford really happen if you look at entire comics, how many time do the heroes really cause Death.

Do they really think A whole bunch of hero related deaths going to pop up in the next couple of months if they dont do something EXTREME to stop the anti's as soon as possible


worst let, all these thing so far made thing worst

Clor did NOT help tony

[Sean Whitmore]

Negligent Homicide is still homicide.

What was negligent about it? A criminal was about to attack a registered law officer. That law officer discharged his weapon. You could maybe argue excessive force, but that's as far as it goes.

It hurts Tony's argument, because he's arguing superheroes need to be held accountable. But whos being held accountable for Goliaths death? no one, that we've seen.

So that wasn't Bizarro Thor we saw on the operating table?


SEAN

[Harding Prime]

Great issue, and I have always been able to see both sides of the story, but Tony really helped me out in this issue. He basically thinks that the SHRA is a good idea because he thinks HE needs to be watched over because he has been known to be a drunken douche. Now we are getting somewhere.

(I know there are other reasons that are valid, and I don't think IM is a bad guy, just a man to far set in his ways for himself to see both sides and a possible greater good. Like a certain fascist regime we are beknownest to. Don't get your panties in a bunch MagRocs, it's all in fun.)

[Psyco panda]

So that wasn't Bizarro Thor we saw on the operating table?


SEAN

Let me answer this question first, since it leads into my next one. Yes, that was Clor, but he was not being punished, or disciplined. he was being fixed, because he is not a person. He is a cyborg machine programmed to do the Pros will. At least characters like the Vision had free will, so they could be held responsible. Clor does not have free will, as seen when Reed shuts him down with a password. Since he had no choice in his actions, he can't be held accountable, but his creators can be and should be.

What was negligent about it? A criminal was about to attack a registered law officer. That law officer discharged his weapon. You could maybe argue excessive force, but that's as far as it goes.

Not all attacks are equal. Thor was one of the most powerful superhumans in marvel. The clone was probably damn near as strong. Goliath had the power to become really tall.

Comparing to a cop using lethal force is nonsense. If Clor was a cop, Goliath was a 5 year old with a whiffle bat. Lethal force was not called for. If Clor had just aimed a little lower and blasted Goliaths leg off, which he could have easily done considering how big a target it was, then it would be different.

And theres my previous point: Thor is not a person or self aware, but a thing. Merely a tool used by the Pros. If a guy attacks a cops squad car or radio or gun, lethal force is also not called for. Lethal force is only called for to defend peoples lives. Clor had no right to kill a person to defend himself since he is expendable.

I consider it negligent because Clor is so crazy, you'd think even minimal testing would have revealed he was unstable. If they had put him in a room with a LMD that looked like Cap, maybe they would have realized he needed further testing when he electrocuted/vaporized/beat-into-a-million-pieces/ate and/or raped the Cap LMD.

Because Tony, Reed, and Hank apparently did not do enough testing of Clor, they are responsible.

[bulbasteve]

And theres my previous point: Thor is not a person or self aware, but a thing. Merely a tool used by the Pros. If a guy attacks a cops squad car or radio or gun, lethal force is also not called for. Lethal force is only called for to defend peoples lives. Clor had no right to kill a person to defend himself since he is expendable.

Actually if you recall in that Frontline issue that showed the battle it showed Goliath throwing a semi-truck at some Capekillers (or maybe it was the main title, I dont remember offhand). So it can certainly be argued he was trying to defend peoples lives.

[Magneto Rocks]

Great issue, and I have always been able to see both sides of the story, but Tony really helped me out in this issue. He basically thinks that the SHRA is a good idea because he thinks HE needs to be watched over because he has been known to be a drunken douche. Now we are getting somewhere.

(I know there are other reasons that are valid, and I don't think IM is a bad guy, just a man to far set in his ways for himself to see both sides and a possible greater good. Like a certain fascist regime we are beknownest to. Don't get your panties in a bunch MagRocs, it's all in fun.)

I know, fun fun fun.

But of course, for those of us who REALLY read it he makes a better point- everyone makes mistakes. Except Captain America.

I can't remember offhand who said it, but yeah- he really is Marvel's Superman in the boyscout territory, except MORE of a hero because his powers are pretty meagre by comparison.

[Pyro]

I'm kind of sad. The pages in the middle of my comic came out. Darn paperclips! Do your job!

Is it just me, or did Jeremy Haun's art look pretty similar to Steve McNiven's? This is a good thing, it makes it fit even better within the story. However, Most of it may be due to Mark Morales and Morry Hollowell's work, as the both have contributed a lot to McNiven's art. There were things about Haun's art that were distinctly his, though.

[Harding Prime]

I know, fun fun fun.

But of course, for those of us who REALLY read it he makes a better point- everyone makes mistakes. Except Captain America.

I can't remember offhand who said it, but yeah- he really is Marvel's Superman in the boyscout territory, except MORE of a hero because his powers are pretty meagre by comparison.


I understand that Tony makes his point, it just seems to go against what our democracy was found upon. This just seems like a slippery slope to me towards a Sentinal policed America besides a prevention towards it. This is going directly towards "Days of the Future Past", but not just for mutants, but all super humans, Villians and Heroes alike. It seems that this is the Marvel Universe's new version of segregation.

Everyone deserves the same rights, and the only time those are taken from you are when you break the law, that is what this coutry was found upon and have been over 200 years. Taking a certain group of minorities out of that equation is also against the law of our Bill of Rights. We should learn from our mistakes of our past, like Tony says.

Captain America has made mistakes, more then just taking a swing at Tony, he is human, but it is only when break the law that you should be taken down and serve your time. These people wearing masks aren't breaking any laws until one was just made up one day and they didn't go straight to the court house. That is wrong.

Cap says that they always police there own, that is what they should do, because the government without representation for super humans shouldn't be allowed to either, and the means they will go by may become catastrophic.

I do read rather well and have probably a larger vocabulary and better grammer then most, inclduing you, smart-ass, but I don't see a problem with having a little fun and taking a cheap pop at a character when it shows itself. Act like you don't do it.

[Harding Prime]

How?

Are the guys that created the atomic bomb guilty of manslaughter? If the clone is just a weapon how can Stark (and what about Reed, Hank and all the SHIELD scientists not being mentioned here) be held accountable?

Because they were both the scientists in this equation, whom invented the weapon, and the Eisenhower of the equation and pushed the button that made the kill. So they didn't know it was going to kill, but niether does a drunk driver when they get behind the wheel. Accountability.

[Silver Nimbus]

Everyone deserves the same rights, and the only time those are taken from you are when you break the law, that is what this coutry was found upon and have been over 200 years. Taking a certain group of minorities out of that equation is also against the law of our Bill of Rights. We should learn from our mistakes of our past, like Tony says.

Captain America has made mistakes, more then just taking a swing at Tony, he is human, but it is only when break the law that you should be taken down and serve your time. These people wearing masks aren't breaking any laws until one was just made up one day and they didn't go straight to the court house. That is wrong.


Running around in a mask period, depending on the jurisdiction - breaking the law.
Running around in a mask period wielding deadly weapons (powers), - breaking the law.
Flying without registering a flight plan with the FAA - breaking the law.
Using many of the exotic energy powers we see in comics, particularly those that can have nuclear elements without oversight/licensing from the Department of Energy/Nuclear Regulatory Commission - breaking the law.
Destruction of public property (average super fight) - breaking the law.

Half the actions involved in superheroing? Breaking the law.

Someone decided to finally call them on it. And their response? Break some more laws. Obviously the laws don't apply to them, by their own reckoning. By my count, that's a whole lot of crimes the average superhero needs to answer for. By your own words, that's a whole lot of rights they're going to have to forfeit.

It's too bad the Anti-Reg side only has one character on it I sympathize with - Cap. The rest I'd be happy to see locked away in cells for the next 10 to 20 years. I'm far more inclined to support the Pro-Reg side, which consists mostly of those characters with a strong background of working with the law, instead of around it.

[Silver Nimbus]

Because they were both the scientists in this equation, whom invented the weapon, and the Eisenhower of the equation and pushed the button that made the kill. So they didn't know it was going to kill, but niether does a drunk driver when they get behind the wheel. Accountability.

I'm sorry but no one makes a bomb during wartime with the expectation it's not going to kill anyone. That's being deliberately obtuse.

Also, it was Truman, not Eisenhower who made the decision to drop the A-bomb on Japan.

[Alpow]

It's too bad the Anti-Reg side only has one character on it I sympathize with - Cap. The rest I'd be happy to see locked away in cells for the next 10 to 20 years. I'm far more inclined to support the Pro-Reg side, which consists mostly of those characters with a strong background of working with the law, instead of around it.

Like Tony Stark how most recently broke somebody out of Federal prison, killed a plane full of people, was himself a fugitive on the run and earlier in his career went to war with the US government in Armour wars?

Yeah he has a record as a by the book fellow.

If the super humans didn't break the law (with the government endorsing it by turning a blind eye) then everybody on MU earth would be dead by now, which would probably be poetic justice (at least for the US MU populace).

[Harding Prime]

The laws regarded in the real world and the Marvel Universe are tweaked for super heroes and mutants already.

Flying people is not against the law.

If wearing a mask was against the law, Halloween would be outlawed.

Super-Human powers are not brought up in any law. If they are used to break laws, they can be registered as deadly weapons, only on case by case basis, in court, after judgement is handed down.

You can get them on property damage, thats about it.

[Harding Prime]

I'm sorry but no one makes a bomb during wartime with the expectation it's not going to kill anyone. That's being deliberately obtuse.

Also, it was Truman, not Eisenhower who made the decision to drop the A-bomb on Japan.

I keep getting reminded that this isn't a "war". Congress didn't pass a declaration of war, so creating a weapon and using it, whether intention to kill was planned, is still manslaughter.

[Silver Nimbus]

I keep getting reminded that this isn't a "war". Congress didn't pass a declaration of war, so creating a weapon and using it, whether intention to kill was planned, is still manslaughter.

No, the U.S. Congress most certainly did pass a resolution declaring war on Japan on December 8th, 1941.

Also, I'd like to see citations to your assertions that:

The laws regarded in the real world and the Marvel Universe are tweaked for super heroes and mutants already.

As then the FF, the Avengers, etc., would not have had their flight clearances etc., revoked or threatened to be revoked numerous times. Chosing not to enforce these laws up until this point does not strike them from the books.

Likewise, my mask assertion was tied to the caveat "depending on the jurisdiction", which is indeed proveable.

Stark's legal culpability for past actions has been explored, and the Government not filing charges is a matter of record.

[IamtheRock3]

Running around in a mask period, depending on the jurisdiction - breaking the law.
Running around in a mask period wielding deadly weapons (powers), - breaking the law.
Flying without registering a flight plan with the FAA - breaking the law.
Using many of the exotic energy powers we see in comics, particularly those that can have nuclear elements without oversight/licensing from the Department of Energy/Nuclear Regulatory Commission - breaking the law.
Destruction of public property (average super fight) - breaking the law.

Half the actions involved in superheroing? Breaking the law.

Someone decided to finally call them on it. And their response? Break some more laws. Obviously the laws don't apply to them, by their own reckoning. By my count, that's a whole lot of crimes the average superhero needs to answer for. By your own words, that's a whole lot of rights they're going to have to forfeit.

It's too bad the Anti-Reg side only has one character on it I sympathize with - Cap. The rest I'd be happy to see locked away in cells for the next 10 to 20 years. I'm far more inclined to support the Pro-Reg side, which consists mostly of those characters with a strong background of working with the law, instead of around it.


Yes but not only HAVENT they been calling them on it for what about 60 years, comic book time

but been Requesting there help, putting them on teams, Calling them For SECRET WARS, basicly having them deal with most of the villans, making money off them, making it there Jobs to save the world, cheering them all, calling them to help in court

Differnt precident in the marvel world.


again if they didnt break the law, The world, no the UNIVERSE would be dead a long time ago

[IamtheRock3]

oh and charging them for pass VILIGLANTISIM, when they the authroies did all the stuff I mention...pretty much entrapment

[The Shadow]

Because they were both the scientists in this equation, whom invented the weapon, and the Eisenhower of the equation and pushed the button that made the kill. So they didn't know it was going to kill, but niether does a drunk driver when they get behind the wheel. Accountability.

That didn't answer my question about Oppenheimer and the rest of the scientists that created the atomic bomb.

And I agree about the drunk driving... but the clone was a weapon and working on behalf of the government as were Stark and the rest of the people involved.

[The Shadow]

I keep getting reminded that this isn't a "war". Congress didn't pass a declaration of war, so creating a weapon and using it, whether intention to kill was planned, is still manslaughter.

You're right... no declaration of war has been passed by congress.

But what about creating a weapon and using it in a police action, which is a more applicable comparrison? Is it manslaughter then?

[IamtheRock3]

You're right... no declaration of war has been passed by congress.

But what about creating a weapon and using it in a police action, which is a more applicable comparrison? Is it manslaughter then?

To me, It be like if Swat Shot in an experemental tear gas into a crowd, but didnt test in probally and it killed someone

then yea there accoutable

[Psyco panda]

How?

Are the guys that created the atomic bomb guilty of manslaughter? If the clone is just a weapon how can Stark (and what about Reed, Hank and all the SHIELD scientists not being mentioned here) be held accountable?

I would say no, Oppenheimer is not guilty of manslaughter.

Is it a crime to kill an enemy in wartime? Civil War isn't really a war, just a strong dissagreement. Neither side wants or is even willing to kill the other, so killing people isn't justified.

The bomb was tested. Everyone had knowledge about what it could do because they put literally years of research into it. The destruction the A-bomb brought was not surprising to anyone responsible for using it.

Clor's actions obviously did surprise his creators, because they created and fielded him in less than a month. They thought they knew what he could do, but they didn't test him enough to be sure. He went out of control and people died. That is why they should be held accountable.

[Nomad]

I just wish that Tony showed half of the shock/remorse that we saw from Hank in CW4. Legality aside, on some level, Tony is responsible. Just because he won't face charges doesn't mean it wasn't a death that he could have prevented. If it was necessary, maybe it could be justified. Tony gained nothing by Bill's Death, and setting your Clor-bot to stun shouldn't have been so hard. He SHOULD have tested him. It wasn't out of his hands, by any stretch. Parents, keep your kids on a leash.
Guilty of manslaughter? Maybe not. Guilty of slaughtering a man? Maybe
The use of Clor was excessive force. If a cop shoots nine rounds into a man carrying a knife and refusing to stop, there will be an investigation.

[John Nowak]

Are the guys that created the atomic bomb guilty of manslaughter? If the clone is just a weapon how can Stark (and what about Reed, Hank and all the SHIELD scientists not being mentioned here) be held accountable?

It's a poor analogy, I'm afraid; the atomic bomb was a weapon created by civilians for a military force; the weapon's use was authorized by the supreme commander of that force in wartime.

Clone Thor was a semi-autonomous weapon created by civilians and then used by those same civilians. It killed somebody. Manslaughter charges would be pretty reasonable, although they might be dismissed on the grounds that the Pro-Reg side were defending themselves.

[Nomad]

It's a poor analogy, I'm afraid; the atomic bomb was a weapon created by civilians for a military force; the weapon's use was authorized by the supreme commander of that force in wartime.

Clone Thor was a semi-autonomous weapon created by civilians and then used by those same civilians. It killed somebody. Manslaughter charges would be pretty reasonable, although they might be dismissed on the grounds that the Pro-Reg side were defending themselves.

Yeah, I think it's closer to a police conflict. As for the Pro-Reg defending themselves, maybe so, but they still used excessive force. In alaska, my state, if a dude at a bar pulls a knife on you and tries to stab you, you can legally get away with shooting them in self-defense. However, if a cop shoots a man threatening to stab the officer with a swiss army knife, it's a little harder to prove that he didn't use excessive force. The cop had the advantage, and he didn't have to resort to lethal force so quickly. The cop has been trained, given the right to carry a gun and enforce the law. If he takes advantage of that, he should be held accountable.

[The Shadow]

It's a poor analogy, I'm afraid; the atomic bomb was a weapon created by civilians for a military force; the weapon's use was authorized by the supreme commander of that force in wartime.
That's why I changed the analogy to a poilce action.

Clone Thor was a semi-autonomous weapon created by civilians and then used by those same civilians.
Under the authorization of the President, SHIELD and many of the smartest people on the planet.

[The Shadow]

To me, It be like if Swat Shot in an experemental tear gas into a crowd, but didnt test in probally and it killed someone

then yea there accoutable

And if the experimental and untested tear gas was a necessary action to stop something bad from escalating... you'd still hold the makers accountable??

[IamtheRock3]

And if the experimental and untested tear gas was a necessary action to stop something bad from escalating... you'd still hold the makers accountable??





Depends if cyborg Clone thor was neccesary. When you got SENTRY and iron man,She Hulk and Spiderman on the team along with basicly an army of people with advance tece suits. Remeber the only way the regs got out, is Sue storm felt the Thor thing was the LAST STRAW and help them


To send and UNTESTED weapons out like that. It pretty much should be the ABSOLUTE last resort. I mean,

"Use this weapons, or a Stadium filled with bodies" type thing sense there plenty of other options on hand


so in most Case, hold the makers, and the ones that use the weapon accoutable

[Magneto Rocks]

Depends if cyborg Clone thor was neccesary. When you got SENTRY and iron man,She Hulk and Spiderman on the team along with basicly an army of people with advance tece suits. Remeber the only way the regs got out, is Sue storm felt the Thor thing was the LAST STRAW and help them

Well they didn't have the Sentry at that point. We can assume Clor was tested, but not extensively enough- you can't program a cyborg for every eventuality.

[John Nowak]

Under the authorization of the President, SHIELD and many of the smartest people on the planet.

This I'm not clear on -- where are we shown that Tony & Co. discussed the matter with the police or SHIELD, and that someone signed off on it?

At any event, I think this is missing the point Magneto Rocks originally raised: he did not say "Tony is guilty of manslaughter," he said "at worse, Tony could be charged with manslaughter." I agree. It depends on the prosecutor, but charges wouldn't be unreasonable. I don't think they would stick, but it's not an unreasonable "worst case" scenario.

[IamtheRock3]

Well they didn't have the Sentry at that point. We can assume Clor was tested, but not extensively enough- you can't program a cyborg for every eventuality.



The moment he showed up he was basicly drooling and screaming. In fact think he was litterarly foaming from the mouth

So not going to assume

[Harding Prime]

No, the U.S. Congress most certainly did pass a resolution declaring war on Japan on December 8th, 1941.


I was speaking of the MU Civil War, DUH!

I know their was a declaration of war for WWII.

I wasn't saying there should be any accountability for Truman and the US, but the cloning of Thor has to have some accountability, it has to go both ways if they plan on taking all Anti-Regs out or to jail.

[Harding Prime]

You're right... no declaration of war has been passed by congress.

But what about creating a weapon and using it in a police action, which is a more applicable comparrison? Is it manslaughter then?

I think so because no one was in fatal danger until Thor showed up, this was known. But their never will be accountability for it, because they are on teh side that makes the laws, so its just going under the category of a travesty.

[Arilou]

Well they didn't have the Sentry at that point. We can assume Clor was tested, but not extensively enough- you can't program a cyborg for every eventuality.

Not to mention that Sentry is not exactly mentally stable himself.

It could be argued that even Clone Thor would have been better than risking unleashing The Void.

[-S-Man-]

Thats just my luck...I bought most of the tie-ins and they were questionable or irrelevent to the story (Wolverine, X-Men, Young Avengers and Runaways). And now that Iron Man/Captain America: Casualties of War has come I can't read it because UK. Has anybody else got it in the UK?

[DoctorDoom]

I figure this deserves its own thread, rather than being lumped in with the 3 or 4 other Iron Man-centric books this week.

Simply put, Casualties of War was so great it made me wanna kick puppies.

Cap and Tony made arguments that actually made SENSE. They used examples that made SENSE. And they poked holes in each others arguments with criticisms that made SENSE.

Cap makes the old argument about heroes revealing their identity. But instead of that being the end of it, Tony actually counters with the fact that registered heroes don't HAVE to reveal it. And Cap counters THAT with how easily the Mad Thinker could hack the info from a government database. That's how you write a debate. Not with one side saying something scathing and the other side responding with a solemn, puppy-dog look.

I've liked Civil War this whole time, but mainly as a fun, brainless "popcorn movie" comic. This may be the first time I thought it could actually work as a really intelligent, well-thought out story as well.

I got a real Magneto/Xavier vibe from some of the arguments made. Cap and Magneto are focused on the past..."They've screwed us before, they can't be trusted, we've gotta fix things by force." Tony and Xavier are focused on the future..."People are smarter now, it won't happen again, we've gotta fix things from the inside."

And the raging nerd in me appreciated all the flashbacks and such. This issue was such a continuity wank I felt like smoking a cigarette afterwards. :)

Gun to my head, I honestly cant think of one story by Christos Gage I've read before. But after this, I'll definitely be on the lookout for more.
I agree completely. It all made sense, and was a kick @$$ book. Loved the references and the guide to em too.

[Shyft]

Finally a really good "Here are our reasons" from each side. I'm still with Cap, but it made Tony seem a little more human. A little.

[Shyft]

Thats just my luck...I bought most of the tie-ins and they were questionable or irrelevent to the story (Wolverine, X-Men, Young Avengers and Runaways). And now that Iron Man/Captain America: Casualties of War has come I can't read it because UK. Has anybody else got it in the UK?

Um, its out in all good comic stores since thursday now...

[garin]

It's not clear whether Clor's malfunction was really a result of incompetence on the part of his creators, or the unpredictable nature of using a clone-god for your cyborg. They may have done due diligence in testing him, but how he would react in actual battle may not have been forseeable before his first real field test.

Shooting someone in a knife fight isn't a very good analogy.

It's more like this: a criminal advances on a police officer with a knife, the cop pulls out his pistol and points it at him, telling him to stop-- and the gun accidentally discharges, killing the criminal.

[Doesitmatter]

I thought it was okay but mainly a 'clip show' of old issues. The confrontation in Iron Man #14 was a lot more dramatic.

[Rahul]

The art in this one really wasnt that good...


but hell the story was superb....definietly in the contenders list for best tie-in after Amazing and Wolverine(since the story isnt over yet)...

[Killer Bee]

Casualties of War is quite possibly the one book that's made complete since ever since CW started. I FINALLY see Tony's side properly represented while we actually do see the flaws in Steve's logic. I still like the anti-regs more, but Tony's finally not looking like a villain.

The same goes for War Crimes, the whole idea of black and white just turned gray when they both went to Wilson for help.

Incase anyone is wondering what other books Gage is doing, he's currently doing Stormwatch PHD as well as...I think CSI...I could be wrong on the CSI part.

[Atom_basher]

ok this issue REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY pisse me off heres why. it was SO FREAKING GOOD, it made me wish Gage was writing front line, or was working more at marvel, the arguments were amazingly balanced, everything i ever wish was said was said, Tony wasnt an asshole, and for once gave arguments that make pro seem logical, i loved his line about how cap is using his icon status to persuade people to join him, and how wanting to rain the young avengers is no different than what the pros want to achieve. man get Gage an frikkin ongoing like, NOW

[Blackcat]

does it only contain Ironman and Cap, or do others appear as well?

[Atom_basher]

does it only contain Ironman and Cap, or do others appear as well?

only those 2 appear in real time but they do TONS of flashback things that show many other characters I highly recommend u pic it up, i guarantee you'll LOVE it

[rerun]

I thought the writing was very good. The art was a little generic. But it did seem late int he conflict for these guys to be sitting down like this.

[The Shadow]

it did seem late int he conflict for these guys to be sitting down like this.

Well... to be fair we don't know how long the conflict is going to be... it could go another year.

[jackolover]

I only just read this issue and haven't yet seen the thread, so

Couple of things:-

1. Why does IM label Peter Parker an untrained combatent whose inexperience is what caused Gwen Stacy's death?

2. What is with Tony Starks paranoia, that he thinks Iron Man could have started Stamford, if he was on the bottle?

3. What is with Stark saying that Caps whole resistance to SHRA is because IM was a drunk and Steves dad was too, so Cap is against SHRA?

4. And where did this State Dept Plan - Project Wideawake - come from? This would be a good story to tell. Humans, at last, run out of patience with heros, and one night, when no one suspects, every hero gets a visit from a Sentinel and shuts them down, like some sort of nightmare.

Very good issue, showing some angst that Cap and IM have, underlying this whole CW.

The only reason this book has a Casualties of War sash must be because both Steve and Tony have been traumatised by CW

[Chris Thomas]

I only just read this issue and haven't yet seen the thread, so

Couple of things:-

1. Why does IM label Peter Parker an untrained combatent whose inexperience is what caused Gwen Stacy's death?

2. What is with Tony Starks paranoia, that he thinks Iron Man could have started Stamford, if he was on the bottle?

3. What is with Stark saying that Caps whole resistance to SHRA is because IM was a drunk and Steves dad was too, so Cap is against SHRA?

4. And where did this State Dept Plan - Project Wideawake - come from? This would be a good story to tell. Humans, at last, run out of patience with heros, and one night, when no one suspects, every hero gets a visit from a Sentinel and shuts them down, like some sort of nightmare.

Very good issue, showing some angst that Cap and IM have, underlying this whole CW.

I am not entirely sure about all your questions but will give it a shot

1. cuz some people blame spidey for killing GW by snapping her neck--i.e. her velocity downward + web 'breaking her fall' on her foot= snapped neck. maybe a web trampoline would have helped not kill her. -therefore, spidey needed more training to prevent her death.

2. I agree with IM's paranoia--he was pretty much a loose canon on the bottle. analogy: dwi with a tank or drunk with your finger on the button.

3. I think that was only tony pushing steve's buttons.

4. no comment.


I agree that this issue was awesome--this gage guy can write.

[Alpow]

Project Wideawake has been around for a while, Gyrich used to run it.

It was the government's idea to get Sentinels together and come up with a final solution to the mutant problem should it be required.

[christosgage]

ok this issue REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY pisse me off heres why. it was SO FREAKING GOOD, it made me wish Gage was writing front line, or was working more at marvel, the arguments were amazingly balanced, everything i ever wish was said was said, Tony wasnt an asshole, and for once gave arguments that make pro seem logical, i loved his line about how cap is using his icon status to persuade people to join him, and how wanting to rain the young avengers is no different than what the pros want to achieve. man get Gage an frikkin ongoing like, NOW

Glad you liked it! I can't take credit for the bit about the Young Avengers, it was [editor] Andy Schmidt who pointed that out, which I thought was a great point to raise.

Merry Christmas!

CNG

[Kevinroc]

Glad you liked it! I can't take credit for the bit about the Young Avengers, it was [editor] Andy Schmidt who pointed that out, which I thought was a great point to raise.

Merry Christmas!

CNG

Out of curiousity, how much of the continuity did you know on your own and how much had to be pointed out by Marvel editorial?

Was that Young Avengers bit all that editorial told you about?

[DoctorDoom]

Glad you liked it! I can't take credit for the bit about the Young Avengers, it was [editor] Andy Schmidt who pointed that out, which I thought was a great point to raise.

Merry Christmas!

CNG
Great work sir, great work. You've convinced me that I feel like I'm justified for liking Iron Man's side (and Registration in general). Nice job w/ the Cap side too. Count, Counterpoint.

[ilovemoney]

Iron Man may be right in some respects but i want someone to just whip his ass just to teach him what comes around goes around!!!

[christosgage]

Out of curiousity, how much of the continuity did you know on your own and how much had to be pointed out by Marvel editorial?

Was that Young Avengers bit all that editorial told you about?

My memory might well be flawed, but as I recall: Andy mentioned the YA and Tom Brevoort contributed Cap taking a swing at Tony during the Korvac saga and the Galactic Storm incident. The rest was taking up space in my head that should really be used for things like knowing how to cook or what colors clash with each other. But instead I remember Iron Man getting drunk and fighting Machine Man. Well, at least I'm in the right line of work!

[Atom_basher]

Glad you liked it! I can't take credit for the bit about the Young Avengers, it was [editor] Andy Schmidt who pointed that out, which I thought was a great point to raise.

Merry Christmas!

CNG


what?!?!?!?! an editor who actually added something good?!?!?!?!? jk :p

[Calamas]

ok this issue REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY pisse me off heres why. it was SO FREAKING GOOD, it made me wish Gage was writing front line . . .
I can’t agree completely. While this is my favorite Civil War-related comic to date, I believe Front Line to be a Jenkins tour de force--and the best work of his career.

[StoneGold]

Clone Thor was a semi-autonomous weapon created by civilians and then used by those same civilians.

I'm not 100% positive on Reed and Tony's civilian status these days, with the SHRA in effect.

[The Shadow]

I'm not 100% positive on Reed and Tony's civilian status these days, with the SHRA in effect.

Good point. SHIELD can draft you into thir employ.

[John Nowak]

I'm not 100% positive on Reed and Tony's civilian status these days, with the SHRA in effect.

Point, especially with Millar's history of forgetting to put major plot elements in his book. Tony hasn't tried to pass the buck uphill, but it's not unreasonable he'd refuse to do so if he felt responsible for the mistake.

Still, we haven't heard anyone mention "Major Stark" or "Captain Richards," and we didn't see anyone say "SHIELD has authorized the use of Evil Thor Clone." So, until something like that happens, I'd assume Stark and Richards are still civilians.

[IMJ]

This was the best Civil War book that has been made so far. If I never reread Civil War out of disgust, this issue will still sit in one of my Iron Man boxes for occassional rereading. I can't wait for this guys Quasar series...

[bulbasteve]

Good point. SHIELD can draft you into thir employ.

On the other hand Stark is the chairman of the Presidential Superhuman Task Force, and one would assume Reed and some of the other major pro-reg guys are also members. Seeing as how he is kinda in charge of the whole operation they would probably want to stick with drafting people who do not have the presidents ear and actually supply SHIELD with half its gizmos and doodads.

[Lunal]

Great book. As far as I'm concerned this proves that Christos Gage is a wonderful writer who cares about the character he writes about's history, beyond a doubt. You also saw it in the Union Jack miniseries, in the vampire fight at the beginning.

But I couldn't brng myself to pick this up, simply because it runs so contrary to Millar's Civil War books. I don't know wtf it is with Millar and Quesada, why Millar is allowed to go off like he does with such incredibly out of character storylines.

[The Shadow]

Great book. As far as I'm concerned this proves that Christos Gage is a wonderful writer who cares about the character he writes about's history, beyond a doubt. You also saw it in the Union Jack miniseries, in the vampire fight at the beginning.

But I couldn't brng myself to pick this up, simply because it runs so contrary to Millar's Civil War books. I don't know wtf it is with Millar and Quesada, why Millar is allowed to go off like he does with such incredibly out of character storylines.
This post makes me laugh.

You say its a great book and Gage is a great writer but you won't pick it up because of what ANOTHER writer is writing?

And I don't think ANY of the characters is acting unusual and out of character at all.

[StoneGold]

This post makes me laugh.

You say its a great book and Gage is a great writer but you won't pick it up because of what ANOTHER writer is writing?

And I don't think ANY of the characters is acting unusual and out of character at all.

More to the point, the very reason for this book's existence is to show no, not really out of character. See, they've done this before under different circumstances.

[Psyco panda]

Actually the very reason for this books existence is because due to civil war's delay, they needed a few titles to pad their sales since a third of their line up was delayed a month or more.

No disrespec to the issue, i thought it was a great and wish the whole series was like it, Gage wrote it well and made it topical, but it was just an attempt to cash in on civil war, at least from the editors.

[Arilou]

On the other hand Stark is the chairman of the Presidential Superhuman Task Force, and one would assume Reed and some of the other major pro-reg guys are also members. Seeing as how he is kinda in charge of the whole operation they would probably want to stick with drafting people who do not have the presidents ear and actually supply SHIELD with half its gizmos and doodads.

Not to mention that there is (apparently) something of a Turf-war between SHIELD and the Commission on Superhuman activities over exactly who has jurisdiction and how.

At least that was what some off-hand comments lead me to believe.

[StoneGold]

Actually the very reason for this books existence is because due to civil war's delay, they needed a few titles to pad their sales since a third of their line up was delayed a month or more.


Why it was on the editorial calendar, sure. Why it existed beyond that though, was to show motivations for the Civil War. Otherwise, we could have gotten a 32 page pinup book.

[DoctorDoom]

Why it was on the editorial calendar, sure. Why it existed beyond that though, was to show motivations for the Civil War. Otherwise, we could have gotten a 32 page pinup book.
Nicely said, sir.

[sherlockbones]

i just got the issue today and i don´t know if anybody brought this up yet (quick thread search said no), but does anyone else think "rubicon" has foreshadowing written all over it?

wiki:
"The river is notable as Roman law forbade any general from crossing it with a standing army. The river was considered to mark the boundary between the Roman province of Cisalpine Gaul to the north and Italy proper to the south; the law thus protected the republic from internal military threat. When Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon in 49 BC, supposedly on January 10 of the Roman calendar to make his way to Rome he broke that law and made armed conflict inevitable. According to Suetonius he uttered the famous phrase ālea iacta est ("the die is cast").[1]

Suetonius also described how Caesar was apparently still undecided as he approached the river, and the author gave credit for the actual moment of crossing to a supernatural apparition. The phrase "crossing the Rubicon" has survived to refer to any people committing themselves irrevocably to a risky and revolutionary course of action – similar to the current phrase "passing the point of no return". It also refers, in limited usage, to its plainer meaning of using military power in a non-receptive homeland."

i still think it is highly unlikely that they might kill cap like the now deleted wikipedia entry announced , but in this context i fear for him. also tony said:

"you are the perfect man. you live by ideals and standards that are...outdated..."

jmacq1 called it the clash between "military complex" and the "american dream". the crossing of the rubicon also was the end of the roman republic. go figure.
it also reminded me of 19th centuries socialist who split over the question whether to boycott militarism and strife for revolution or fighting the system from within through being voted into the parliament.
socialist later created totalitarian russian and the german nazis considered themselves socialists too. yes i think tony is written to be on this path, whether his intentions are good or not.
k. popper, wiki:
"While originally referring to an 'all-embracing, total state,' the label has been applied to a wide variety of regimes and orders of rule in a critical sense. Karl Popper, in The Open Society and Its Enemies (1945) and The Poverty of Historicism (1961) developed an influential critique of totalitarianism: in both works, he contrasted the "open society" of liberal democracy with totalitarianism, and argued that the latter is grounded in the belief that history moves toward an immutable future, in accord with knowable laws. During the Cold War period, the term gained renewed currency, especially following the publication of Hannah Arendt's The Origins of Totalitarianism (1951)."

"i am a futurist. the way my mind works-reeds mind works- we can inuit the future. ... we know what people will need before people even know they are going to need it. and now i am going to tell you the future. ... that is what will happen"
tony stark
New Avengers: Illuminati

[Harding Prime]

i just got the issue today and i don´t know if anybody brought this up yet (quick thread search said no), but does anyone else think "rubicon" has foreshadowing written all over it?


That's deep. I would hope something huge (besides the unmasking of Spider-Man) like a big time death would happen in the end of all this. But Cap? That would hurt, but I would still buy into it because I love sensationalism and change in what I know and read...most fan boys do not.

[DoctorDoom]

i just got the issue today and i don´t know if anybody brought this up yet (quick thread search said no), but does anyone else think "rubicon" has foreshadowing written all over it?

wiki:
"The river is notable as Roman law forbade any general from crossing it with a standing army. The river was considered to mark the boundary between the Roman province of Cisalpine Gaul to the north and Italy proper to the south; the law thus protected the republic from internal military threat. When Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon in 49 BC, supposedly on January 10 of the Roman calendar to make his way to Rome he broke that law and made armed conflict inevitable. According to Suetonius he uttered the famous phrase ālea iacta est ("the die is cast").[1]

Suetonius also described how Caesar was apparently still undecided as he approached the river, and the author gave credit for the actual moment of crossing to a supernatural apparition. The phrase "crossing the Rubicon" has survived to refer to any people committing themselves irrevocably to a risky and revolutionary course of action – similar to the current phrase "passing the point of no return". It also refers, in limited usage, to its plainer meaning of using military power in a non-receptive homeland."

i still think it is highly unlikely that they might kill cap like the now deleted wikipedia entry announced , but in this context i fear for him. also tony said:

"you are the perfect man. you live by ideals and standards that are...outdated..."

jmacq1 called it the clash between "military complex" and the "american dream". the crossing of the rubicon also was the end of the roman republic. go figure.
it also reminded me of 19th centuries socialist who split over the question whether to boycott militarism and strife for revolution or fighting the system from within through being voted into the parliament.
socialist later created totalitarian russian and the german nazis considered themselves socialists too. yes i think tony is written to be on this path, whether his intentions are good or not.
k. popper, wiki:
"While originally referring to an 'all-embracing, total state,' the label has been applied to a wide variety of regimes and orders of rule in a critical sense. Karl Popper, in The Open Society and Its Enemies (1945) and The Poverty of Historicism (1961) developed an influential critique of totalitarianism: in both works, he contrasted the "open society" of liberal democracy with totalitarianism, and argued that the latter is grounded in the belief that history moves toward an immutable future, in accord with knowable laws. During the Cold War period, the term gained renewed currency, especially following the publication of Hannah Arendt's The Origins of Totalitarianism (1951)."

"i am a futurist. the way my mind works-reeds mind works- we can inuit the future. ... we know what people will need before people even know they are going to need it. and now i am going to tell you the future. ... that is what will happen"
tony stark
New Avengers: Illuminati
Ok, you're starting to worry me now...

[Arilou]

The Rubicon allusion is pretty common, so I'll ignore that. In general "crossing the Rubicon" just means "moving beyond a point-of-no-return".

socialist later created totalitarian russian and the german nazis considered themselves socialists too

Except that Hitler had most of that wing of his party Purged (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_Long_Knives)

it also reminded me of 19th centuries socialist who split over the question whether to boycott militarism and strife for revolution or fighting the system from within through being voted into the parliament.
socialist later created totalitarian russian and the german nazis considered themselves socialists too. yes i think tony is written to be on this path, whether his intentions are good or not.

Except that Tony is more along the "reformist" ideal, trying to work society from within while Cap remains a hardcore revolutionary that refuses compromise.

One of them is willing to work for peaceful change within the boundaries of the system: And it's not Steve Rogers.

[sherlockbones]

Ok, you're starting to worry me now...

i am just trying to discover analogies in the story, influences of the authors. that worries you?
(i hate it: "it is just a comic book. wth do you try to read into it?!?". yeah, and still the main comic peer group is 8-12 year old boys like in the 60s...please let me have my illusion that some comic book writers are actually educated people that use analogies or have done historic research to tell modern day stories)

[sherlockbones]

The Rubicon allusion is pretty common, so I'll ignore that. In general "crossing the Rubicon" just means "moving beyond a point-of-no-return".

sometimes you overlook the obvious...also i asked if somebody already mentioned it and maybe not everyone reading here knows about roman history as you do. so i mentioned it. u make it sound like it is a bad thing

Except that Hitler had most of that wing of his party Purged (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_Long_Knives)


i explicitly wrote "considered" themselves. the main idea is that all the evil empires thought they were doing the "right thing"

Except that Tony is more along the "reformist" ideal, trying to work society from within

yep, a reformist which will end as a totalitarian. the future baby, all within my hands...

while Cap remains a hardcore revolutionary that refuses compromise.

One of them is willing to work for peaceful change within the boundaries of the system: And it's not Steve Rogers.

details can be rearreanged, but my reading is that tony is the prototype totalitarian. i didn´t even wrote about cap, cause i admit i am not sure about his role. i think the latest cap symbolism is best represented in gaiman´s "1602"

[The Shadow]

i am just trying to discover analogies in the story, influences of the authors.

Perhaps Mr Gage will pop on and answer your question. Good bit of research.

[oneasian]

i think that this issue is also a great idea for a new Cap/Iron Man book, like from the age of Tales of Suspense.

I think a great would be a Iron Man and Cap book that even featured Year 1 type stories.

It's too bad that will probably never happen now because of Civil War

[Capt USA]

I've been a fan of the Civil War series from it's inception, I agree with many of the criticism of the Civil War main title in that Iron Man's side is appearing to be too over the top or the bad guys. The death of Bill Foster was pretty unnecessary in my opinion and really distorted the perception of the two parties. (yes I knew casualties were going to happen but as mentioned the clone thor was a pretty poorly executed weapon with flawed reasoning and actually goes counter to the entire point of the shra, which is to ensure that combatants are supposed to be capable of re-acting with appropriate force and restraint, the clone thor is pretty much the same mistake that happened in stamford)

This issue rocked, I got it today and the reason I came to post today was because I wanted to see the response to this issue. I remember some people posting before it came out that it was going to be a bad sucky fill in type of issue(or something to that effect) I liked many of the points mentioned, but to go over. I liked the fact that there was point-counterpoint debate. I like the fact that tony pointed to his drinking as a reason why he thinks this is necessary and how cap replied back that the shra wouldn't have made a difference then tony responded how shra isn't going to prevent every tragedy, just force accountability when something happens.

There wasn't one bad panel in the entire issue that I can think of. The number of things right with this particular comic just gave me goose bumps to be honest. The flashbacks all had strong relation to the story.

I do have a couple of points that I wish Cap would have brought up, when Iron Man claims that the shra was his attempt to prevent worse actions from happening, cap really needed to point out that the worse events he saw are even more inevitable now as they have inched closer to it, when people become comfortable with accepting a loss of freedoms it's easier to accept the next step/loss.

Still have to chime in that this was a genuinely great issue.

[christosgage]

Perhaps Mr Gage will pop on and answer your question. Good bit of research.

I wish I was smart enough to have thought things out that much. Of course, we are all influenced by everything we have ever read or studied or experienced, so it's hard to say, really. Often I don't realize I was influenced by something until after the fact.

Best,

CNG

[Calamas]

There wasn't one bad panel in the entire issue that I can think of. The number of things right with this particular comic just gave me goose bumps to be honest. The flashbacks all had strong relation to the story. . . .
And I can only hope the right people realize just how much this flashes back to the work of David Michelinie and Bob Layton, how vital and enduring their contribution to the Marvel Universe still remains. These gentleman should be working today.

[BigDuke]

Except that Tony is more along the "reformist" ideal, trying to work society from within while Cap remains a hardcore revolutionary that refuses compromise.

One of them is willing to work for peaceful change within the boundaries of the system: And it's not Steve Rogers.


Keep in mind that Cap was introduced to the SHRA as : you must hunt down your friends and at your first question we are pointing guns at you. From his perspective he and his ilk were under attack by people he used to trust. Does he know for sure that this is not some plot to control/wipe out heroes or some kind of totalitarian grab for power? Maybe the conversation/brawl with IM will square things up a bit to allow for dialogue, compromise, and closure. Plus I don't see either side as being peaceful. However the anti's are trying to continue to do their job (catch the bad guys) while the pro's are trying to catch the good guys and are using the bad guys to do it.

[XPac]

Except that Tony is more along the "reformist" ideal, trying to work society from within while Cap remains a hardcore revolutionary that refuses compromise.

One of them is willing to work for peaceful change within the boundaries of the system: And it's not Steve Rogers.

But I think it's important to consider that Cap perhaps would have tried working within the system, had the system not tried gunning him down the second he raised the slightest bit of objection to it.

If he weren't shot at for disagreeing with the law before it even became a law, it's very possible Cap would have tried trying more conventional means to fight the law. He was simply never given that chance. It's hard to work within the system when you're shot at for not agreeing with it.

[StoneGold]

And I can only hope the right people realize just how much this flashes back to the work of David Michelinie and Bob Layton, how vital and enduring their contribution to the Marvel Universe still remains. These gentleman should be working today.

I dunno. Did you read any of that Future Comics stuff? If it is indicative of anything, no they shouldn't.

[jackolover]

I do have a couple of points that I wish Cap would have brought up, when Iron Man claims that the shra was his attempt to prevent worse actions from happening, cap really needed to point out that the worse events he saw are even more inevitable now as they have inched closer to it, when people become comfortable with accepting a loss of freedoms it's easier to accept the next step/loss.

So Cap is aware of Project Wideawake, and, Steve thinks it is inevitable despite Tonys attempts to forestall it? So this might be the post CW epic I have heard mentioned Mark Millar will do in 2007? Sounds like a reasonable follow up.

It does make you wonder what the Government and Shield have been concocting while the SHRA is distracting the heros. New Sentinels? Negative Zone cell technology to nullify powers? Midnight Blitzkrieg.

I would think Tony would need to hold back a reserve force in case of this kind of attack, so there are at least some resistance fighters left in the underground. Who are the reservists? Every hero I can think of is live in the CW. The authorities can institute PW at a whim, so there has to be somebody outside of the combatants right now, or Tony isn't the futurist he makes out.

[Capt USA]

So Cap is aware of Project Wideawake, and, Steve thinks it is inevitable despite Tonys attempts to forestall it? So this might be the post CW epic I have heard mentioned Mark Millar will do in 2007? Sounds like a reasonable follow up.

It does make you wonder what the Government and Shield have been concocting while the SHRA is distracting the heros. New Sentinels? Negative Zone cell technology to nullify powers? Midnight Blitzkrieg.

I would think Tony would need to hold back a reserve force in case of this kind of attack, so there are at least some resistance fighters left in the underground. Who are the reservists? Every hero I can think of is live in the CW. The authorities can institute PW at a whim, so there has to be somebody outside of the combatants right now, or Tony isn't the futurist he makes out.



I would assume cap is privy to wide awake, but it really wouldn't matter. The point was that cap has in the past, with nazi germany, saw a group of people willingly give up control of their own destiny to a group of people and saw it spiral into a facist regime pretty quickly.

I wouldn't be surprised at all to see tony working on a backup plan, if he is still being portrayed as a hero (villains seem to think their plans will work and outside of escape plans, don't plan for failure) It appears that stark enterprise is getting a lot of the contracts for anything to do with shra, him putting a fail-safe/control on it seems pretty logical.

[gianluca790]

The bottom line is that if you want Heroes who are actively effective against Evil, you should not hamper them in their fight against Evil by forcing them to kowtow to government bureaucrats. To do so would give Evil an edge.:rolleyes: The British SAS works better by actually being off the books.

[gianluca790]

The point was that cap has in the past, with nazi germany, saw a group of people willingly give up control of their own destiny to a group of people and saw it spiral into a facist regime pretty quickly.

There is a difference between the Nazis and the self-righteous bureaucrats in modern Democracies who believe they have the interests of the whole world at heart. The Nazis make a bad debating team, self-righteous bureaucrats, especially in a democracy, do not even have to debate the issues. People just naturally assume that people born and bred in the political environment of Washington naturally know what they are doing, and have the best interests of the American People at heart.

[Tre Styles]

I just got this in the mail a couple of days ago. I echo many of the sentiments here on this thread, that this was a well balanced, probably the most well balanced and best adjusted issue of the Civil War titles so far. I agree, that it maybe could've occured in the normal title, but I also think it fits as a one-shot. Either way, this made me see both sides of the issue in a more positive way. I've hated how Iron Man had seemingly sunk below the bar, as far as being a hero goes, but his motivations in this issue made me start to rethink....I actually feel a little sorry for Tony now. He's truly in a rock and a hard place (even though most of it was his own doing.) This issue was an exploration of a very good friendship that has been torn apart due to strenuous circumstances. You had a feel that both men wanted there to be some kind of compromise, or something that could salvage their relationship, but in the end, there differences in this matter continue to push them further away from each other. It was really a great, great character study of both Captain America and Iron Man. Some things I liked about this issue were: The mention of the alcholism, Iron Man talking about Project Wideawake as a motivation of what he's trying to stop. Cap's idealism, and being called out on his influence over the younger heroes, and the older ones at that. (Side note: Cap would be a great fit on JSA if he were a DC character...which he's not, but anyways....)Iron Man's desperation in that one scene: "Tell me Steve! Tell me what I can do! What can I do to make it stop?!"--that's what got me right there (and all of the other dialouge too, but that was just like...wow.). As I said, great issue. Story: 10/10 Art:9/10

[gunnerfan69]

It's more like this: a criminal advances on a police officer with a knife, the cop pulls out his pistol and points it at him, telling him to stop-- and the gun accidentally discharges, killing the criminal.

No it was more like a criminal advances on a cop with a knife and the cop jumps in a tank and accidently fires a massive shell that obliverates the criminal..."oops" I thought that was the a/c button...:rolleyes:

[gunnerfan69]

I don't know...I picked up some of the other issues and tie in including COW (which alone is brilliant -- you could cut through the tension)...I finished Iron Man 14 which is in a word 'poor Tony he is upset and confused about what he's doing even though he thinks its the correct thing to do' to Spider Man where he is money grubbing villan who has no concern for the rights of anyone in his special prison...point being (and I could describe Tony in other books like Frontline, Captain American, etc) he's almost different in every title ie Misunderstood, bad buy, worst villan ever, confident in his correctness, warmongering whore, etc...

Maybe there is a 'civil war' going on amongst the different mags or the editing is just really, really poor. Don't get me wrong I like the story but sort it out Marvel.:p

[Kirk G]

Maybe it's just that each hero in each different title sees Tony a bit differently...

[StoneGold]

Maybe it's just that each hero in each different title sees Tony a bit differently...

See, that's what happens when you use common sense. You end up wrong. Obviously it's some kind of massive continuity error.

[Harding Prime]

Maybe it's just that each hero in each different title sees Tony a bit differently...

Or the man could be conflicted...! In each tale it shows Tony in a different light, not because of poor editing, but because he is not suppose to be a two dimensional character. As big as a douche as IM is, even he realizes it sometimes.

[Mariah]

Or the man could be conflicted...! In each tale it shows Tony in a different light, not because of poor editing, but because he is not suppose to be a two demionsational character. As big as a douche as IM is, even he realizes it sometimes.
YAY!!!! SOMEONE GETS IT!!!! *dispenses of fireworks display around harding's house*

[Blind pugh]

Just need to jump on the THANKYOU CHRISTOS! bandwagon.

You've given me a book I can use to prove to people that Tony isn't a dick.

And you've almost made me like Cap an unprecidented occurance in my comic reading life.

Bloody well done!

[jackolover]

Boy, this was a brilliant compilation of arguments, of two opposing sides, who talked themselves into a stalemate. At no time did either Steve or Tony find a hole in each ones argument. Cap admitted his modernist naivety, and Tony was seen as a spoilt alcoholic, who always gets his way. Cap had no idea about neurosis driven arguments, and was blindly unaware of inevitability.

Here were two people, friends without a doubt, but whose picture of events before them, lead them to completely opposing conclusions. No matter what terrible contingency could arise against SH's, Cap thought the superhuman community could successfully resist it. Tony saw that opposing the Law of the land was anethema, and would result in the bloodiest confrontation of the Marvel U.

But neither of them saw the crass absurdity of a government rounding up all superhumans, and nullifying their abilities (as outlined by Tony describing the Project Wideawake), when the end-game was somebody (like Amadeus Cho) releasing all dog-collar nullifiers, and setting the SH's free. The government really had to compromise, and learn to live with SH's, if SH's had resisted en masse, and would have to learn to respect them. Or, kill them off the face of the Planet. If they opted for extermination, the the Nazi label would have been complete over the face of the country. It would spell a death nell, and shift the values of the country into the area of a Genghis Khan.

The magnifying lens of focus, of this book, bore into the Avengers mansion, and showing the two primary combatants, (driven to a fist fight, in frustration of not convincing the other), was behind the whole episode, shown in the main and vague tie-ins, over this period of Civil War. It was the single moment of clarity, that showed why it all had to come to the final battle of CW #7. And it is this issue which has made me unconvinced of the conclusion of CW #7.

[Magneto Rocks]

But neither of them saw the crass absurdity of a government rounding up all superhumans, and nullifying their abilities (as outlined by Tony describing the Project Wideawake), when the end-game was somebody (like Amadeus Cho) releasing all dog-collar nullifiers, and setting the SH's free. The government really had to compromise, and learn to live with SH's, if SH's had resisted en masse, and would have to learn to respect them. Or, kill them off the face of the Planet. If they opted for extermination, the the Nazi label would have been complete over the face of the country. It would spell a death nell, and shift the values of the country into the area of a Genghis Khan.


But that's just it, I don't think there's anyway that would happen. If Superhumans all resisted en masse, it would play RIGHT into the government's hands. Sure, they might win a war... but by that point, the entire civilian populace would already be irrevocably convinced that all super-humans were evil. Hell, they'd probably SUPPORT the government's most extreme measures in their frenzy. If they opted for extermination, the people might well support them, and I don't think they could EVER respect tem- at best, it would be a begruidging peace and literally no-one would trust super-humans for decades. Either is much worse than a SHRA solution.

[ManSpider]

could sumone clear up for me:

does the SHRA mean that if u sign up u HAVE TO work for the government?
no choice. can't be registered and work for yaself?

[DaNerd]

That is what it looks like so far. If you sign up you are the property of the government OR you get depowered somehow. PERIOD. Look at Cloud 9, just wanted to fly but is now in training to fight, etc.

On topic. Sad that confessions (to me) is almost like a way to try and retcon IM as a good guy after all the flack that he got for being the bad guy to many people.

When you run a cross title event that has a guy being a prick in 75% of the titles... he is a prick. The 25% other titles that he was either less prick or not a prick do not outweigh the rest. (( Just my opinion and not trying to pee on anyone's wheaties))

I still do not buy his side, I still think he suffers from Hubris. Cap pointed that out, but was ignored. My hope is that he will realize the shra as it is now is bad, very very bad.

But I am SURE that he has many fans who still think he can do no wrong. *shrug*

[jackolover]

But that's just it, I don't think there's anyway that would happen. If Superhumans all resisted en masse, it would play RIGHT into the government's hands. Sure, they might win a war... but by that point, the entire civilian populace would already be irrevocably convinced that all super-humans were evil. Hell, they'd probably SUPPORT the government's most extreme measures in their frenzy. If they opted for extermination, the people might well support them, and I don't think they could EVER respect tem- at best, it would be a begruidging peace and literally no-one would trust super-humans for decades. Either is much worse than a SHRA solution.

How about this Magneto? If the government declared war on all SH's, I guarantee you, the population will be split down the middle about that, and half the people will come to the SH's aid in a full scale Civil War.

On your point, I don't think the SH's would win that war, per se, as you have suggested, where the SH's now control the country. I think the SH's would be able to resist being registered, if, they weren't successfully and systematically rounded up. I think the SH's would make the law unworkable, after reducing the governments forces (Project WideAwake, and any Weapon X program they had in place for SH's), to a rabble. I can't see the government resorting to Nuclear weapons inside their borders.

However, after saying that, I get back to the symbolism of Cap and IM. It is the primal struggle, where Tony and Steve stripped down to their basic elements, and fought with only their hearts. The symbolism is pronounced. The symbol of individualism versus the symbol of multinational conglomerates. It is a war about what each faction is set to loose.

I can see the inevitability of the crushing weight of multinational conglomerates, pressing down on the individual in society, so the overwhelming pressure will always be there, to suppress the rights of the individual, to maintain the power of the country.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

What did people think of Jeremy Haun's artwork on this issue? I was quite impresssed. Would people like to him do more at marvel?

[StoneGold]

What did people think of Jeremy Haun's artwork on this issue? I was quite impresssed. Would people like to him do more at marvel?

It was a bit hit and miss. But given the time constraints, I can be forgiving.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

He'll be doing New Excalinur #21 in a couple of months time. We'll see how he does on that.