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elias_A
12-21-2006, 01:56 AM
From wizarduniverse:http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/002831961.cfm



Beyond the Bat-Universe, Beechen tackles Teen Titans, co-writing an arc in mid-2007 with Geoff Johns. “Adam brings a lot of diversity to the stories we’re trying to tell,” said DC V.P./Executive Editor Dan DiDio. “He really brings a different perspective to Robin. And we’ve got some big plans for him down the road.”


Seriously, I don't want to villainize Beechen, I liked his work on the JLU comic, but I really hope he stays as far away from Cass Cain as possible.

TheTen-EyedMan
12-21-2006, 04:47 AM
Another punch in the face.

It's becoming fun.

Constantine Drakon
12-21-2006, 09:02 AM
As long as he stays the hell away from characters he hasn't bothered to research, and is watched like a hawk by editors... fine.

Damo
12-21-2006, 09:10 AM
What's the worst that could happen?

glennsim
12-21-2006, 01:32 PM
What's the worst that could happen?

A long standing Batman family character could be portrayed in a manner that contradicts their other appearances?

Eliseu Gouveia
12-21-2006, 01:46 PM
Man, poor Cassie just can´t get a break....

blackphoenix
12-21-2006, 02:21 PM
err...no??? Who the hell is this guy? Why is his coming onto the Titans a bad thing?

the goddamn batman
12-21-2006, 02:45 PM
A long standing Batman family character could be portrayed in a manner that contradicts their other appearances?

and the world would end.:rolleyes:

Sean Whitmore
12-21-2006, 02:54 PM
and the world would end.:rolleyes:

What, your family doesn't have a daily moment of silence to commemorate Talia and Batgirl? You heartless monster.


SEAN

kel25
12-21-2006, 03:18 PM
Beechen is the first writer I have a strong disliking of.

Sure other writers have written stories I didn't care for but I've never been impressed by his pervious work. At this time I was neutral but after reading the Batgirl villain story arc I disliked him a little but forgave him mostly because the story was handed down to him by editorial. It wasn't until I read is response to that story that I really started to hate his work.

Lazy writer that doesn't care.

ChthonicSpirit
12-21-2006, 03:20 PM
Who the hell is this guy?

The guy who turned Cass Cain evil, that's who.


Why is his coming onto the Titans a bad thing?

Because he's a condescending hack?

DonC
12-21-2006, 04:14 PM
err...no??? Who the hell is this guy? Why is his coming onto the Titans a bad thing?


He turned a marginally interesting supporting Batman hero into a marginally interesting supporting Batman villain and thus must be hated by all in the land, so say Cassandra Cain's multitude of fans who are planning on storming the gates of Castle DC Comics with their pitchforks and torches. :rolleyes:

the goddamn batman
12-21-2006, 04:50 PM
What, your family doesn't have a daily moment of silence to commemorate Talia and Batgirl? You heartless monster.


SEAN

We do... then we laugh because, who cares?!

If, and only if, I was going to be mad about fucking up charaters, I'd still be angry about Babs. As much as Oracle is ok, Babs is my only Batgirl. So, in the end, Cass getting messed with actually made me happy.

Imposter Batgirl...

...though, Gail's pitch still sounds interesting to me.

Constantine Drakon
12-21-2006, 07:12 PM
We do... then we laugh because, who cares?!

If, and only if, I was going to be mad about fucking up charaters, I'd still be angry about Babs. As much as Oracle is ok, Babs is my only Batgirl. So, in the end, Cass getting messed with actually made me happy.

But you're a fan of All Star Batman and Robin, so maybe not the best authority on quality writing in Bat books. :D :p

Drink
12-21-2006, 07:16 PM
Sometimes I wonder what DC is thinking.

"Wow, people sure are mad about this Batgirl thing we had Beechen do."

"Yeah...Hey, let's get him on Teen Titans and probably writing her again! That'll make everyone happy!!"

Oy.

Sean Whitmore
12-21-2006, 07:19 PM
Sometimes I wonder what DC is thinking.

"Wow, people sure are mad about this Batgirl thing we had Beechen do."

Yeah, that keeps the higher-ups at DC awake at night.


SEAN

Drink
12-21-2006, 07:30 PM
Thank you for diffusing my joke.

But anyway, I think that if the outcry hasn't gotten their attention, the ten thousand less readers of Robin since Cass's reveal would have been indication. I'm not even exaggerating, check out Diamond or something. #150 was 40 thousand some issues, now they're selling 30 thousand. You can't chalk all that up to the OYL buzz wearing down.

Granted, probably not every single one of those issues being dropped is Cass related, but it should be a sign that his writing isn't all as sh*t hot as it's made out to be.

the goddamn batman
12-21-2006, 08:10 PM
But you're a fan of All Star Batman and Robin, so maybe not the best authority on quality writing in Bat books. :D :p

First, where did I say anything about the quality of writing on this or an other title? All I said is who cares if another character is run through the mud... what books I buy has to do with anything said here, I don't know. But, hey, thanks for trying to be snarky about it.


Also, 'fan' doesn't quite describe what or why I like aitle so much as it just says I like it. I like All Star, I think it's funny... and more than that, I think peoples reactions to it are even funnier.

So...

IamtheRock3
12-21-2006, 08:54 PM
still say isnt beechen fault how thing went down, he was giving marching orders

think they wanted to make her mustage twirling evil

Blight
12-21-2006, 11:45 PM
He turned a marginally interesting supporting Batman hero into a marginally interesting supporting Batman villain and thus must be hated by all in the land, so say Cassandra Cain's multitude of fans who are planning on storming the gates of Castle DC Comics with their pitchforks and torches. :rolleyes:

DC has a castled named Castle DC Comics? I knew the Didio loved Golden Age.. but the Golden Age of house building too?

Yeah, that keeps the higher-ups at DC awake at night.


SEAN


No, "Love Chunks." What does :p

Babylon23
12-21-2006, 11:59 PM
Did anybody bother to notice the "co-writing with Geoff Johns" part of this, as in co-writing an arc with the ongoing writer of Teen Titans? It's not like Beecham is taking over the book. He's simply teaming up with Johns for one story. It's possible that it's even a Titans/Robin crossover that they're working on TOGETHER.

Also, did anybody mention Batgirl being in the story?

But hey, what would I know. I've actually enjoyed Robin OYL.

carabas
12-22-2006, 12:58 AM
still say isnt beechen fault how thing went down, he was giving marching orders


Beechen's marching orders were: 'turn her into a villain'.
That's not his fault.
What is his fault is HOW he turned her into a villain daddy, whom she had severed all ties with and didn't give a rat's ass about anymore) had another daughter/experiment he loved too.
Which she had known about for ages, actually, and was quite fine with.

And he turned her from the best martial artist in the DCU with language problems into an extremely verbose monologuer who couldn't even beat Robin.

It's not as if there aren't three or four far better ways to make her villain, given Batman's neglect of her and the death of pretty much everybody she ever knew when BlŁdhaven blew up...

Starba
12-30-2006, 12:05 AM
Did anybody bother to notice the "co-writing with Geoff Johns" part of this, as in co-writing an arc with the ongoing writer of Teen Titans? It's not like Beecham is taking over the book. He's simply teaming up with Johns for one story. It's possible that it's even a Titans/Robin crossover that they're working on TOGETHER.

Also, did anybody mention Batgirl being in the story?

But hey, what would I know. I've actually enjoyed Robin OYL.

If Justice Society of America is any indication, "co-writing with Geoff Johns" is a euphemism for "Geoff Johns priming said writer to take over," like Alex Ross will be doing with JSA. Beechen has also expressed interest in writing Cassandra Cain again, so it's a good bet she'll stick around.

carabas
12-30-2006, 02:03 AM
Alex Ross is taking over JSA? For good?
Damn, scratch another good title...

Babylon23
12-30-2006, 04:18 AM
If Justice Society of America is any indication, "co-writing with Geoff Johns" is a euphemism for "Geoff Johns priming said writer to take over," like Alex Ross will be doing with JSA. Beechen has also expressed interest in writing Cassandra Cain again, so it's a good bet she'll stick around.

Since when is Alex Ross taking over JSA? Ross is co-plotting a JSA story with Johns (I beliieve issues 9-12), and doing design work. Unless plans have changed, and you know something the rest of us don't, Johns is still the writer of JSA for the forseeable future. If Johns is "priming" Ross to take over, I've certainly read nothing about it. Do you have a link?

As for Cassandra Cain in Teen Titans, well, it's possible that she'll be there, since she's a member of Titans East. However, since we know absolutely nothing about the story they're working on together, who knows. It's entirely possible that the writer of Robin and the writer of Titans (whom Robin leads) are writing a Robin story together.

SensorBoy
12-30-2006, 09:42 AM
Beechen's marching orders were: 'turn her into a villain'.
That's not his fault.
What is his fault is HOW he turned her into a villain daddy, whom she had severed all ties with and didn't give a rat's ass about anymore) had another daughter/experiment he loved too.
Which she had known about for ages, actually, and was quite fine with.

And he turned her from the best martial artist in the DCU with language problems into an extremely verbose monologuer who couldn't even beat Robin.

It's not as if there aren't three or four far better ways to make her villain, given Batman's neglect of her and the death of pretty much everybody she ever knew when Blüdhaven blew up...

It's a side-effect of having her own title cancelled.

When a character goes from a headliner to a secondary character in another title (and thus, written by people who do not have a vested interest in that character's continuity), it's very likely that massive 180's will occurr in characterisation. When a secondary character is used for a dramatic effect on the title character, it's usually to the cost of the secondary (bye, Spoiler)character's continuity.

Witness the Marvel "background mutant" effect. All those "guest" mutants that hang out with the X-Men, but do not join the team, such as Skids or Magma. They can go from psychotic villain to X-buddy, with little or no explaination, between one appearance and the next. Happens in the Titans a lot, too.

"OK, Cassandra is evil now. I have to portray that, in relation to it's effect on Tim. However, I also need to shoehorn in a lot of exposition with regard to that, into one issue. I know! We'll have them fight, and Cassandra will explain it all. Next!"

carabas
12-30-2006, 03:47 PM
Witness the Marvel "background mutant" effect. All those "guest" mutants that hang out with the X-Men, but do not join the team, such as Skids or Magma. They can go from psychotic villain to X-buddy, with little or no explaination, between one appearance and the next. Happens in the Titans a lot, too.
They were backgound characters, none of them ever had their own succesful title.


"OK, Cassandra is evil now. I have to portray that, in relation to it's effect on Tim. However, I also need to shoehorn in a lot of exposition with regard to that, into one issue. I know! We'll have them fight, and Cassandra will explain it all. Next!"
No. He had a full 4-issue arc to explain it in. 88 pages and the best he can do is "Daddy didn't love only me"???
Beechen claimed to have read her last arc, and to have researched the character and to be faithful to her history.
Again, there are lots of interesting ways to turn her into a villain using just that last arc that Beechen claims to have read.
Did I mention that The Society just killed just about everybody she knew?

SensorBoy
12-30-2006, 07:16 PM
They were backgound characters, none of them ever had their own succesful title.



Background characters, true.

Which is what Cassandra became, immediately after her title got cancelled and DC chose not to slip her into a Team (BoP or as one of Batman's regular flunkies). If you don't have your own title and arent a series regular on another title, you go into Comic Limbo, there to be dealt out as a wild card for any writer who can convince the Powers That Be to let them use you.

When a character becomes the "character development" foil for a character with his own title (in this case, Robin), it's often at the expense of the foil (turned evil and chatty, stuffed in the fridge, depowered, crazy, etc). IOW, the effect of a Chatty & Evil Cassandra on Robin was more important to the writers/editors than it's departure from established continuity.

What I would like to know: Was it the set-up for a long running character development saga for Cassandra, and the Robin writers were used to promulgate the first episode (i.e. a long term plan for Cassandra on the part of DC), or was it simply a "she's available now, so make her evil and a chatterbox, therebye injecting some pathos in the Robin book"-throw away?
If it's part of a long-term plan to develop her character, then the current foolishness might be just the setup. If it isn't, then that would be bad.

Also,

If memory serves, she did not display any romantic attraction to Tim prior to the Bunny Boilerish "let's run away and kill naughty folks" speech at the docks.

So: Evil, chatty and a Fatal Attraction heretofore unremarked...

Evil Twin revelation in the works? I've been out of the loop for a little while, so I don't know if DC has made any remarks as to the intention of the personality shift...

http://www5.oekakibbs.com/bbs/jlg1/data/21.png

Blight
12-30-2006, 11:15 PM
Did anybody bother to notice the "co-writing with Geoff Johns" part of this, as in co-writing an arc with the ongoing writer of Teen Titans? It's not like Beecham is taking over the book. He's simply teaming up with Johns for one story. It's possible that it's even a Titans/Robin crossover that they're working on TOGETHER.



Of course and we know Geoff's role on co-writing this:

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1697/beechan5dx7.png
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7912/beechan7rw9.png
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/3001/beechan6kn1.png

Somebody had to post the Casstoon :p

elias_A
12-31-2006, 02:44 AM
Background characters, true.

Which is what Cassandra became, immediately after her title got cancelled and DC chose not to slip her into a Team (BoP or as one of Batman's regular flunkies). If you don't have your own title and arent a series regular on another title, you go into Comic Limbo, there to be dealt out as a wild card for any writer who can convince the Powers That Be to let them use you.


Yeah, but the Batgirl series was obviously not cancelled because of bad sales (Catwoman for example sold worse).
DC cancelled Batgirl because they had some other plans with Cassandra/ another Batgirl/ Batwoman.

And I would not be surprised if Titans East was already being prepared when Cass was fighting Ravager the first time...

Starba
01-01-2007, 11:46 PM
Since when is Alex Ross taking over JSA? Ross is co-plotting a JSA story with Johns (I beliieve issues 9-12), and doing design work. Unless plans have changed, and you know something the rest of us don't, Johns is still the writer of JSA for the forseeable future. If Johns is "priming" Ross to take over, I've certainly read nothing about it. Do you have a link?

This Wizard interview certainly didn't make it seem like Ross would be only briefly involved with JSA: http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/002614557.cfm


WIZARD: Youíre working as a creative consultant to the new Justice Society series as well as being the cover artist. How does your role here differ from things like this youíve done in the past on books like Astro City and the Earth X books?

ROSS: Well, right now itís beginning slowly because the story as Geoff has established it for the first few issues of the new series is mostly a story that Iíve given some creative feedback on, but eventually itís turning into a storyline that Iíll make a more notable contribution to with plot. I believe Iím going to be getting co-plotting credit when we get to issue #8 or #9. That is when the turn takes its place.

carabas
01-02-2007, 01:04 AM
It also doesn't make it seem as if Johns will be leaving the book any time soon.


Geoff is holding the torch for one of the best corners of the DC Universe in terms of whether or not this is a universe that gets any older. You know, whereas you can read your average Superman and Batman book, and they’re generally having to stay the same. These men have to remain in their mid-30s. Geoff can show the transference of time and growth.

Starba
01-02-2007, 07:40 PM
It also doesn't make it seem as if Johns will be leaving the book any time soon.

I don't know about that, but that specific quote just looks like a comment about how Johns writes, not how long he'll be attached to JSA...ymmv

Babylon23
01-03-2007, 01:04 AM
This Wizard interview certainly didn't make it seem like Ross would be only briefly involved with JSA: http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/002614557.cfm

Right. Ross is co-plotting. There's nothing here about him "taking over" JSA. He's working with Johns as a co-plotter (emphasis on "co"). Johns has stated in numerous interviews that he plans to be writing the book for some time yet.

Starba
01-03-2007, 08:58 PM
I hope you're right. We'll see down the line, I guess.

Constantine Drakon
01-06-2007, 02:46 PM
As for Cassandra Cain in Teen Titans, well, it's possible that she'll be there, since she's a member of Titans East. However, since we know absolutely nothing about the story they're working on together, who knows. It's entirely possible that the writer of Robin and the writer of Titans (whom Robin leads) are writing a Robin story together.

That's my take exactly. Provided he's not writing Batgirl like he was, or making major changes to any characters without approval from someone that knows the characters' history, it'll probably be all right.


Background characters, true.

Which is what Cassandra became, immediately after her title got cancelled and DC chose not to slip her into a Team (BoP or as one of Batman's regular flunkies). If you don't have your own title and arent a series regular on another title, you go into Comic Limbo, there to be dealt out as a wild card for any writer who can convince the Powers That Be to let them use you.

When a character becomes the "character development" foil for a character with his own title (in this case, Robin), it's often at the expense of the foil (turned evil and chatty, stuffed in the fridge, depowered, crazy, etc). IOW, the effect of a Chatty & Evil Cassandra on Robin was more important to the writers/editors than it's departure from established continuity.

Although that sort of writing may be commonplace, that doesn't make it good, or even acceptable. You don't want the guest star to steal the scenes or make the main character look bad. But that means it's the writer's job to do so in a way that's true to what's come before. Otherwise, even if the main character comes out looking good, it's just bad writing.