How do you feel about Speedball's progression as a Character?

[Haunt]

true, we don't know where he'll end up. i'm just asking about what you've seen so far. the poll isn't limited to fans of the character.

[rick]

I've never been a big fan of the character, but I think that while the story featuring Speedball has just been horribly written, the character himself has shown a lot of growth and has acted in a serious, adult manner.

[Haunt]

I've never been a big fan of the character, but I think that while the story featuring Speedball has just been horribly written, the character himself has shown a lot of growth and has acted in a serious, adult manner.

fair enough. when you say "adult" are you refering to his choosing to not take credit for Stamford or his new prison 'attitude?'

[drwho]

As of the newest frontline his character is being massacred yuck

[Alan2099]

It's defintely not playing to the character's strenghts or appeal. Using him in this manner would be like casting Adam Sandler in a serious drama about the holocaust. It just doesn't fit.

Even if you were to write his character in these type of events, which itse;f is a pretty horrible idea, he himself is being written horribly and they've completley forgoten how people usually treat him and what he's accomplished in the past.

It's like the writers drew up a list of characters they thought were expindable and randomly pickd his name out of a hat without bothering to actually read anything he'd previously appeared in.

[Haunt]

It's defintely not playing to the character's strenghts or appeal. Using him in this manner would be like casting Adam Sandler in a serious drama about the holocaust. It just doesn't fit.


well, i was going to save my opinion for later but you pretty much summed it up with the Sandler line. i don't think it's even Robbie any more. the progression wasn't believable for me. i've seen Speedball try to be a bad____ and it didn't stick. now i'm supposed to believe that he gets off on pain?

[rick]

fair enough. when you say "adult" are you refering to his choosing to not take credit for Stamford or his new prison 'attitude?'

No, I'm talking about his standing up for what he believes is right and standing by that decision despite the consequences.

[Haunt]

No, I'm talking about his standing up for what he believes is right and standing by that decision despite the consequences.

fair enough. but consider that the alternative would be to take responsibility for acting recklessly. it's one thing to be thought of as a screw-up by the public. it's a whole 'nother something to actually admit to it. all Robbie has done is refuse to admit to it, so far. btw, he also just compromised what he believed was right at the end of the story.

[Will.S]

Looking at the latest CW: Frontline, I'm not liking the whole masochism aspect of his powers now (which undoubtedly seals the deal for him as being the Penance character) and whenever he stops being the fun Robbie Baldwin altogether it's just not the same character anymore.

That said, it'll be interesting to see him in the new T-Bolts as I'm much looking forward to that book but I don't really see Robbie being Penance forever. If anything it'll be one of the first things that would be reversed.

[Expletive Deleted]

I haven't been reading FRONTLINE, so I couldn't say.

From what you guys are saying, though, it does sound a little . . . drastic.

[Haunt]

Looking at the latest CW: Frontline, I'm not liking the whole masochism aspect of his powers now (which undoubtedly seals the deal for him as being the Penance character) and whenever he stops being the fun Robbie Baldwin altogether it's just not the same character anymore.

That said, it'll be interesting to see him in the new T-Bolts as I'm much looking forward to that book but I don't really see Robbie being Penance forever. If anything it'll be one of the first things that would be reversed.

i'm all for the creation of new characters. and i have nothing against 'Penance.' i just think it's strange that they made Robbie Baldwin into that character. i can think of several other characters who might be an easier transition into that type of character. heck, Dwayne Taylor (if he had powers) could have been Penance and i wouldn't have flinched.

[Will.S]

i'm all for the creation of new characters. and i have nothing against 'Penance.' i just think it's strange that they made Robbie Baldwin into that character. i can think of several other characters who might be an easier transition into that type of character. heck, Dwayne Taylor (if he had powers) could have been Penance and i wouldn't have flinched.
I would have been ok with just a new character altogether but Robbie seems to be going through a long "arc" flowing from the initial Civil War confrontation with Nitro. I'm actually ok with that aspect but the way his powers changed just makes it look like an odd turn for the character.

But then again there might be another aspect about him that they haven't revealed as far as being a Thunderbolt goes and who he'll be reporting to.

[jester1436]

It's not really development so much now as turning him into a completely different character. This whole S&M anti-hero thing is so completely antithetical to bouncing around goofy Speedball that it's ridiculous. It's like DC boosting up Blue Beetle and killing him, but instead of killing him they decided to change him and the inspiration for his new heroic identity was because he got off on stepping on cockroaches.


I wonder if this means Jubilee will be in the New Warriors then. Heh.

[rick]

fair enough. but consider that the alternative would be to take responsibility for acting recklessly. it's one thing to be thought of as a screw-up by the public. it's a whole 'nother something to actually admit to it. all Robbie has done is refuse to admit to it, so far. btw, he also just compromised what he believed was right at the end of the story.


Oww, well I guess I don't need to pick up that new issue of Frontline after all, now do I?

[drwho]

If anything I think it would have been more interesting to turn Nitro into penance as punishment for his crimes, but that would make too much sense.

[Sgt. Preston]

Ya this new wrinkle in the latest issue of Front Line just doesn't work for the character. It's far too drastic of a personality change for me to buy into it.

[Den]

I haven't been collecting, and I haven't read everything, but from what little I do know.. I'd have to say I'm not happy with what they've done to the guy. Robbie is now a pain freak? Gah.

[Haunt]

wow. i was expecting more of a 50/50 split on the poll. there's gotta be someone who is all about Robbie becoming a pain-freak.

[dopexvii]

Speedball had character before ?
i found him incredibly bland tbh theres only so long you can flog that dead horse and its time he progressed, seriouly his character was like pissing in a sea of piss
if the characters going the way we all think then hey, looks like i'l be picking up thunderbolts again

[dopexvii]

oh i dont think the pain freak thing is too soon either
i mean come on, getting hits in the job description, anyone who goes out for super heroics expects to get hit, and lets face it in the past six months he's been blown across the states, beaten up, stabbed, shot at, blown up and held in dire conditions and it's implied he gets quite a few beatings, so yeah doesnt seem to illogical to me

[Alan2099]

Speedball had character before ?
i found him incredibly bland
Just becaue you faound him bland doesn't mean others didn't like him. I find him quite refressing. he was an expereinced hero that alwyas had a quirky happy go lucky look on things and joked around all the time without ever really taking himself too seriously.

tbh theres only so long you can flog that dead horse and its time he progressed,
Progressed? If this is character progression, then driving my car straight into a brick wall is automotive repair.

if the characters going the way we all think then hey, looks like i'l be picking up thunderbolts again
Well, nice to see that you're fan of overly violent grim and gritty psycho characters. Too bad that's not the character that Speedball has been since his creation.

[Haunt]

oh i dont think the pain freak thing is too soon either
i mean come on, getting hits in the job description, anyone who goes out for super heroics expects to get hit, and lets face it in the past six months he's been blown across the states, beaten up, stabbed, shot at, blown up and held in dire conditions and it's implied he gets quite a few beatings, so yeah doesnt seem to illogical to me

maybe it should be pointed out that Speedball's power basically prevented him from being hurt, before. being shot at wouldn't mean much to someone enveloped in a kinetic field, now would it?

[StoneGold]

I can only imagine Ditko was slightly perturbed when Nicieza turned his angsty character (go read those early Speedballs!) and turned him into a yutz.


Which Speedy was. It's why we loved him. But not as the character was originally envisioned.

[Haunt]

I can only imagine Ditko was slightly perturbed when Nicieza turned his angsty character (go read those early Speedballs!) and turned him into a yutz.


Which Speedy was. It's why we loved him. But not as the character was originally envisioned.

then this is comparable to Morrison's re-envisioning of Magneto. both writers missed what it was that made the character likable.

[NickThompson]

I'm actally interested in reading about him right now.

[StoneGold]

then this is comparable to Morrison's re-envisioning of Magneto. both writers missed what it was that made the character likable.

Wait, are you saying Fabian got it wrong? Because he was the only one who made the character likable. No one liked Ditko's Speedball. It got canceled fast.

Thing is, even then the comparison doesn't work. Speedball is a character who hasn't been used for anything more than a guest spot, a quickly canceled title, or a mini in what, over a decade? In fact, I would posit that it is less Speedball that I was interested in, so much as Nicieza's stock goofball character. Be it Speedy, Fixer, Deadpool, etc.

But given the fact that Speedy has only ever worked under one writer, unlike Magneto, the comparison is off.

[StoneGold]

Here's the real question: if Marvel offered a Speedball book, written in Speedy's old style by anyone but Fabian (hell, even with), do you think it would sell? Would the general public buy it? How many people here have actually read Speedy's solo series?

[Haunt]

Here's the real question: if Marvel offered a Speedball book, written in Speedy's old style by anyone but Fabian (hell, even with), do you think it would sell? Would the general public buy it? How many people here have actually read Speedy's solo series?

why a solo? why not the New Warriors? there are plenty of character i like who wouldn't survive as solo stars. it's just the business. a mini-series probably. there are many characters i'd read a mini of.

Wait, are you saying Fabian got it wrong? Because he was the only one who made the character likable. No one liked Ditko's Speedball. It got canceled fast.

Thing is, even then the comparison doesn't work. Speedball is a character who hasn't been used for anything more than a guest spot, a quickly canceled title, or a mini in what, over a decade? In fact, I would posit that it is less Speedball that I was interested in, so much as Nicieza's stock goofball character. Be it Speedy, Fixer, Deadpool, etc.

But given the fact that Speedy has only ever worked under one writer, unlike Magneto, the comparison is off.

huh? i compared it to Morrison's use of Magneto in Planet X. he made Magneto a geriatric babbling psycho like Magneto was originally. Claremont came along and redefined the character (like Nicieza did Speedball). and now someone has returned Speedball to a seemingly more serious version of himself (like he started).

[Expletive Deleted]

Here's the real question: if Marvel offered a Speedball book, written in Speedy's old style by anyone but Fabian (hell, even with), do you think it would sell?Eh, it's not as if they're going the solo route with this new incarnation.

I dunno. It's like doing a "more mature" version of DC's Captain Marvel. Sure, you can. And it might even sell better that way. But there's something faintly off-putting about the whole thing. Unless the writer can make it work. In which case, nevermind.

[StoneGold]

Eh, it's not as if they're going the solo route with this new incarnation.

I dunno. It's like doing a "more mature" version of DC's Captain Marvel. Sure, you can. And it might even sell better that way. But there's something faintly off-putting about the whole thing. Unless the writer can make it work. In which case, nevermind.

I guess my question there was, did Speedball ever really work? For the general market, anyways? I'm a bigger Speedy fan than most, but it wasn't like I was crying for him to be in a series while he was gone.


Well, that's not true. Find any thread FabNic posted in, you'll probably see me begging for a Speedy/Wade/Fixer team-up. But I seemed to be the only one asking for it.

[Haunt]

I guess my question there was, did Speedball ever really work? For the general market, anyways? I'm a bigger Speedy fan than most, but it wasn't like I was crying for him to be in a series while he was gone.


Well, that's not true. Find any thread FabNic posted in, you'll probably see me begging for a Speedy/Wade/Fixer team-up. But I seemed to be the only one asking for it.

people seemed to like him in the Marvel Team-Up story; league of losers.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2c/SpeedballMedina.jpg

[StoneGold]

people seemed to like him in the Marvel Team-Up story; league of losers.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2c/SpeedballMedina.jpg

You mean in the book that had such a huge audience, it was almost immediately canceled after that story?

Yes, people liked it. Because the economically unfeasible level of people who were reading the book were predisposed to liking it. If 100% of my readership loves my stuff, but I only have 10 readers, that's not really a good job.

[Haunt]

You mean in the book that had such a huge audience, it was almost immediately canceled after that story?

Yes, people liked it. Because the economically unfeasible level of people who were reading the book were predisposed to liking it. If 100% of my readership loves my stuff, but I only have 10 readers, that's not really a good job.

it means you haven't disappointed anyone. that's always a success in my book.

[rick]

it means you haven't disappointed anyone. that's always a success in my book.


Okay, I finally caught up and read the latest story.

And yes, it really is a stupid and sudden change in character.

After all this time standing up for what he believes in, suddenly we have him sounding like a power bottom and rushing to join up with the pros.

Good God, this better be heading for a twist or something becuase otherwise, I have to say that I am really dissapointed.

[NickThompson]

Here's the real question: if Marvel offered a Speedball book, written in Speedy's old style by anyone but Fabian (hell, even with), do you think it would sell? Would the general public buy it? How many people here have actually read Speedy's solo series?

If they just released it, no. If they did it tied in to Civil War and got a popular creative team on it, I think it'd have a chance.

[Yarr]

well, i was going to save my opinion for later but you pretty much summed it up with the Sandler line. i don't think it's even Robbie any more. the progression wasn't believable for me. i've seen Speedball try to be a bad____ and it didn't stick. now i'm supposed to believe that he gets off on pain?

Robbie just went through what I would call a "life alturing experiance. The guy was at the centre point of an explosion that kill a lot of people and a lot of kids too. Lets not forget about him being thrown across the state, stabbed, punched and even shot. Oh and anyone who ignores the mental issues that would arrise from these is just turning a blind eye.

Lets see how Adam Sandler acts after going through what Robbie has. His character should be changing. his character should be different now. Lets face it, speedball wasnt even a great character to begin with.

I dont think its poor writing or anything like that. I think right the problem was using Speedball in the first place. They should have picked one of the other new warriors to survive if anything. Although I personally think its coing a long well so far with Robbie.

[Tina D]

Face it, if he got killed off would any one miss him?

[Haunt]

Robbie just went through what I would call a "life alturing experiance. The guy was at the centre point of an explosion that kill a lot of people and a lot of kids too. Lets not forget about him being thrown across the state, stabbed, punched and even shot. Oh and anyone who ignores the mental issues that would arrise from these is just turning a blind eye.

Lets see how Adam Sandler acts after going through what Robbie has. His character should be changing. his character should be different now. Lets face it, speedball wasnt even a great character to begin with.

I dont think its poor writing or anything like that. I think right the problem was using Speedball in the first place. They should have picked one of the other new warriors to survive if anything. Although I personally think its coing a long well so far with Robbie.

i don't think it's how he would react to this particular life-altering experience. there are certain characters for whom this change wouldn't be realistic, imo. i can imagine Robbie becoming edgy and more defiant than normal. i can't see him morphing into some hulking leather wearing psycho who gets off on pain. i don't see him as the type to beat himself up over something like this. Dwayne Taylor might have; but not Robbie in my opinion. and the change in his powers just doesn't make any sense to me, either.

Face it, if he got killed off would any one miss him?

people would think about him whenever New Warriors is mentioned. people would think about him whenever the roster of a new young hero series was released.

[Indigo Al]

He would have made an excellent 70's/80's era Defender.

[Petertime]

WOW

I haven't been ready front line....and WOW.

I was disappointed with his cameo back in Alias as it made hime look completely useless, which I understood, but felt it undermined all the character development the he underwent in new warriors.

If you read that, you watched a foolish boy become a confused young man. Really, really good character development that gave Robbie some real deeper levels. Hell the posters on his wall for crap music had meaning.

I can't judge how the current storyline works, but he was a great character when I was reading him (and this is the first time I haven't hunted out his story....I even have the original series!)

[Tobias March]

Got a chicken and the egg type question with Robbie. When he started out he seemed to be another wacky Spidey clone, literally bouncing off the walls. So he was upbeat and fun - because his powers almost demand it! Then Bendis had him cameo in Alias, effectively showing him to be useless, a glorified bubble popper. Now his powers are pain based and it seems the character has become all grim n gritty.

So is Robbie Baldwin defined by his powers, or does he have any overriding character at all?

[Sean Walsh]

I voted "It's too soon to say", but I have a feeling I won't like how he's progressing.....y'never know.

[shanejayell]

It seems very forced and contrived, from what I've read. Not buying it.

[Haunt]

whether you like what's happened to Robbie or don't, here's a Speedball that might have been...
http://asuaf.org/~mcescher/warriors/speedball.html

thoughts? better or lamer change?

[shanejayell]

That looks more interesting, honestly.

[Alan2099]

That looks tons better.