Power levels of Kryptonians in Pre-COIE Multiverse and Post-COIE DCU

[Buried Alien]

Anybody who's read DC Comics long enough knows that Kryptonians were much more powerful Pre-COIE when the Multiverse was still in effect than Post-COIE in the single DCU. What hasn't really been discussed is *why* this is so.

I believe the change has less to do with the Kryptonians themselves than it does with the very nature of the DCU compared to the old DC Multiverse. Quite simply: the DCU's physics can't support the outlandish feats of power that the Pre-COIE Kryptonians (and other beings) were capable of.

Consider this: before and during COIE, both Kal-L (the Superman of Earth-Two) and Superboy Prime had Pre-COIE levels of power. They could move planets with their bare hands and fly from Earth across intergalactic space on their own power within a matter of minutes. Upon their entry into the Post-COIE DCU in INFINITE CRISIS, however, only Superboy Prime exhibited such powers. Kal-L was only on par with the Post-COIE Superman of Earth-One (whose power level was far diminished from that of his Silver/Bronze Age counterpart).

This principle extends not only to Kryptonians, but to all superpowered beings in the Post-COIE DCU. Pre-COIE, the likes of Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, and the Martian Manhunter had powers on par with the Silver/Bronze Age Superman's, but Post-COIE, these characters' powers are on par with the diminished Post-COIE Superman's.

Moreover, when the Pre-COIE Silver/Bronze Age Kara Zor-El Supergirl visited the Post-COIE DCU in Peter David's MANY HAPPY RETURNS storyline, she was unable to move the Earth as she believed she could have done in her own universe.

All of this seems to indicate that the nature of the Post-COIE DCU is different from that of the Pre-COIE Multiverse, and it simply will not support the kind of extreme feats seen before COIE. Even Pre-COIE Kryptonians and similar superbeings will experience a diminishment of their power upon entering the DCU; their powers will adjust down to the rules of that universe.

Which makes Superboy-Prime's retention of his Pre-COIE power level in INFINITE CRISIS an anomaly.

Another anomaly: at the end of INFINITE CRISIS, how were the two Supermen able to fly from Earth to Krypton's orbit so quickly on their own power? The Post-COIE Superman has never had such an easy time flying through space. He could reach the moon without too much trouble, but he'd need a superliminal spacecraft or other transportation if he were to travel outside of Earth's solar system. Kryptonians can't fly between solar systems and galaxies on their own power in the Post-COIE DCU, especially not within the timeframe of minutes or hours.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[bfrank]

I've always considered the Kal - L and Kara Zor L to be less powerful than the Pre Crisis Versions of Superman and Supergirl....

I don't know if they could "toss planets" and move thru the time stream like their Earth One counterparts.....

Heck, they didn't even take Powergirl with them to fight the Anti Mnitor in COIE #7.....

I've saw the power levels of the post crisis superman to be around Kal -L's level, but I can not hide the fact that they have grown over the years......

I will be interested in how Power Girl is portrayed now, given that she knows who she is, and therefore, the universe should not be "playing havok on her abilities" any more.....

[Buried Alien]

I've always considered the Kal - L and Kara Zor L to be less powerful than the Pre Crisis Versions of Superman and Supergirl....

I can't comment on Power Girl versus the Pre-COIE Supergirl, but with Kal-L and Pre-COIE Kal-El, I think the difference was mainly that of age and related stamina issues. They were on the same scale, with Kal-L being somewhat weaker simply because he was older. It would be the difference between a healthy 70-year old man and a healthy 30-year old man (which is less than the difference between any Pre-COIE Kryptonian and any Post-COIE Kryptonian).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[bfrank]

I can't comment on Power Girl versus the Pre-COIE Supergirl, but with Kal-L and Pre-COIE Kal-El, I think the difference was mainly that of age and related stamina issues. They were on the same scale, with Kal-L being somewhat weaker simply because he was older. It would be the difference between a healthy 70-year old man and a healthy 30-year old man (which is less than the difference between any Pre-COIE Kryptonian and any Post-COIE Kryptonian).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I was thinking more so of his fairing against Captain Marvel and crew in All Star Squadron.....

There was also the fact that it took quite some time for kal-l's full powers to develop (Flying vs leaping and such) where as we have stories showing Kal-el as being superpowered as soon as he touched down...

Back to your orginal post re: Wonder Woman, I've always argued that the Pre Crisis Wonder Woman was more "powerful" than the post crisis version, in that she was supposed to be able to keep up with Superman and Supergirl, yet based on what appears in the books, the Post Crisis version wins hands down......

[glennsim]

Perhaps in the merged post-Crisis universe, there were enough "normal" worlds with physics that match our own that it effectively "watered down" the physics of the resulting Earth. When it was separate Earths, Earth 1 was free to have bizarre physics that would allow for more unreal things.

Superboy Prime is an anomaly, but perhaps it could have something to do with being one of very few super-powered beings from his universe. Perhaps nature intended his power level to remain the same relative to everyone else in whatever universe he was in, so when he entered a universe full of super-powered people, his powers exploded in scale.

The Superman-flight thing? A clear mistake, IMHO. We could come up with all sorts of made-up explanations - one of which being that it really DIDN'T happen that quickly, there's a long story of the week or so that took place between panels.

Or contact with the E2 Superman altered post-Crisis Superman's powers to closer to their pre-Crisis levels (just as contact with Lois drew out Power Girl's memories).

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I don't know. Post-Crisis, super-charged Superman can move planets around. And that was long before IC. Now, I'm almost sure that current Supeman is more powerful than before IC. How do I know this? Well, it's not that I'm sure, but like I said, almost sure. During the Up, Up And Away arc (almost at the end) Superman shot a Heat Vision blast to the Kryptonian warship that Luthor was controlling. That blast was stronger than what he thought it could be.

It seems they're putting that "mental block" aspect back into the character.

[Rik Levins]

Buried, if I were to venture a guess, I'd say that it's kind of a combination of both.

Remember when post-COIE Superman visited the Pocket Dimension, and encountered a Superboy and Zod who were modelled on the Pre-Crisis Kryptonians? They were noticeably much stronger than Superman. Probably on a par with Superboy Prime, in fact.

I once asked Peter David, when he was doing a question-and-answer segment on his forum, whether the Kara Zor-El of Many Happy Returns failed to move the Earth because the laws of physics are different in the post-Crisis universe. Unfortunately, all I got was "this question has already been answered elsewhere."
However, since Linda Danvers-Supergirl in that story commented on how ridiculous it would be to assume one could move a planet, and how Kara seemingly lacked even a ninth-grade level of scientific knowledge, I'm gonna assume that the answer is yes. Post-COIE universe physics are at least a LITTLE more in keeping with reality.
As a side note, both Linda and Kon-El were impressed with Kara's power level.

So, here's my theory. The laws of physics ARE stricter post-Crisis, but most superbeings are also weaker. Kal-L's fight with modern Superman was more-or-less a tie, partly because his powers have faded from their original levels due to age (as we saw in that 1980's DC Presents, when Sivana stole Captain Marvel's powers and beat him up), and partly because modern Kal-El IS getting more powerful, and partly because Kal-L was still holding back, despite his anguished mental state.

Superboy Prime can push a planet, but it takes enormous effort in this universe (there are instances of Superboy moving multiple planets with ease in the Silver Age, and even moving planets with super-breath).

Kara could not move the Earth because she isn't quite as strong as SBP, just as a normal 110-lb 15-year-old girl would not be as strong as a muscular 16-year-old boy.

Both employ some kind of tactile-telekinesis which they unconsciously use to stabilize a planet when moving it. That's why Kara didn't simply tunnel into the ground, when we know she's more than powerful enough to do so.

[Buried Alien]

Another thing to consider is whether or not the formation of "New Earth" has rewritten the laws of physical limitations in the DCU again, explaining some of the feats performed by the two Supermen in INFINITE CRISIS.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[shanejayell]

Flying to Krypton: My theory always was that one of the GL's generated a space warp there.

[Green Lantern wannabe]

I have a different question - both Kryptonians, pre- and post-COIE, lost their powers when they were under a red sun.

So ... how could all three Supermen in Infinite Crisis fly THROUGH Krypton's red sun, no less, and not get fried? In fact, once they got near the red sun, how could they even fly? Or survive in space?

[marshal99]

I guess their cells still retain a bit of that yellow sun energy before it burn out totally under the red sun.

[Agentum]

But it's stupid anyway, here is nothing missing in the sun rays from a red sun that is in a yellow sun.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Another thing to consider is whether or not the formation of "New Earth" has rewritten the laws of physical limitations in the DCU again, explaining some of the feats performed by the two Supermen in INFINITE CRISIS.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

And given the Silver Age trend that DC seems to be having, I wouldn't be surprised that the physics of this New Universe (or New Earth, for that matter) are more like the Pre-CoIE physics.

[glennsim]

I have a different question - both Kryptonians, pre- and post-COIE, lost their powers when they were under a red sun.

So ... how could all three Supermen in Infinite Crisis fly THROUGH Krypton's red sun, no less, and not get fried? In fact, once they got near the red sun, how could they even fly? Or survive in space?

I believe it was insinuated that the loss of powers wasn't immediate, so they were able to get to Mogo before they totally lost power.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

That is what I thought. The loss was almost complete.

[3D Master]

My take on this:

In COIEs we found out that originally the DC universe was one universe, which got split into a bunch of universes when a scientist from OA iirc (I can't remember the dude's name for some reason, Kr-something) attempted to look a the beginning of the universe.

Now, the energy of just one universe, got devided over an enormous amount of them. Then, during COIE, a lot of them were destroyed, and the remaining few went back into one universe, this new universe thus having some more energy than the pre-COIE universe. Now in IC Alex Luthor did some freaky thing by recreating some Earths/universe from the fabric of space time, which then folded back into one, which could very well mean the universe lost some energy again.

Now, this energy is zero-point energy; it's in every single insignificantly small instance of the universe, whether it being vacuum or matter, the energy is there. The more energy, the more rigid the universe is; for parts of the space-time continuum and thus matter to move, it needs to push aside what's right next to it; and the more of it is right next to it, the more difficult it is to move, the "heavier" it is. So, the less energy is contained in a universe, the more fluid/adaptable/subject to change it is, and the more energy is contained in a universe, the more solid, rigid, and set it is.

Which gets us to moving planets. The Supermans probably all have about the same energy; but it's the universes that make the differences. Let's get something straight: someone the size of Superman can't move or rather shouldn't be able to move a planet with his muscles/hands alone, whatever universe he's in. Why not? We don't even need to get into complex gravity fields of starbodies and stuff to show why; it's quite simple: placing enough energy to move a planet on an area the size of Superman's hands won't make him move the planet, he'll go THROUGH the planet. If it would take less energy to move the planet than to destroy a section of the planet, than whenever Superman (and us by the way) would throw a punch, he wouldn't destroy a building/mountain/whatever, he (and us) would send the planet wobbling and flying off to wherever.

Which gets us to universes with so little energy, the rules of physics, and even logic can be bent at a moment's notice. For Superman to move a planet with his hands; the planet/universe would have to go: "Hey, what the hell do you think you're doing!? For f's sake man, you'd go through the planet and cause widespread destruction from tectonic stresses including volcanic eruptions. Yo! Hey! Are you deaf!? Ah, man; gotta protect the planet, let's wrap it in a nice structural integrity energy field to keep the halfwit from going through the planet? What kind of nut thinks he can move the planet with two hands that small!? Idiot." And flash, a nice little protective field is formed by the universe, keeping the planet in tact and allowing Supes to move it, instead of go through it.

The more energy in a universe, the more difficult it can adapt/change/flow to changing situations; the less easy it could do the above (and also the more difficult it would be to actually move a planet (and thus the quicker you'd destroy sections of the planet and thus through it)). Post-COIE universe; it can't, Post IC universe it might be.

Which gets us to Superboy Prime (because this all fits, you know). Why could he move a planet and Power Girl couldn't? Power Girl was placed into this universe; her history changed, etc. etc.; the result, she's actually OF this universe, made from this universe. Superboy Prime in contrast, is not. He's always been outside the universe, he's made of his own universe, which would make him more fluid, mallable, which could allow the universe inside of him, along with the actual universe's own efforts, to be just enough to form such a protective field and move planets without go through them. (Of course, it would probably also mean his attempts to destroy OA at the end of IC would have been useless, he wouldn't go through the planet and destroy it, he'd move it, heh, heh.)

[karasu]

I prefer the mental block idea. While I would never neeeeeeeeeever ever want to see the character move a planet with his bare hands. I like the idea that there are emergency stores of energy available to him should the need ever arise and that he holds his power levels back as a means of self control. That's noble and it adds more depth to the character/battles, etc etc. I'd be totally fine with him surviving in the vacuum of space, flying for long distances, hitting a little harder and so on. The Superman/Space Opera works for me. There's no need for planet tossing or mountain benching though. It just looks all sorts of wrong. Though Majestic handled the planet moving idea by giving him a pair of gloves that created some type of energy field that kept him from going through the planet/moon/whatever as he pushed.

[3D Master]

But it's stupid anyway, here is nothing missing in the sun rays from a red sun that is in a yellow sun.

Yes there is, there's a lot missing. The hotter a star burns, the closer the color gets to white (all colors together). The less hot it burns, the cooler it is, the more it is from white. Yellow is closer to white than red; a yellow sun burns hotter and thus sends out more frequencies (and also deadly frequencies) of radiation.

Which is an interesting thing. In our universe, a being coming from a planet with heavier gravity (thicker atmosphere, absorbing more radiation) orbiting a red sun (cooler, less deadly radiation), would not grow stronger here; he would die. His cellular structure wouldn't be built to handle the amount of ionizing radiation, and it would kill him.

Which begs the question: does Kryptonite radiation kill Superman (Wouldn't it also kill Kryptonians ON Krypton?), or does it just disrupt Superman's protective and energy absorbing aura, and the solar radiation can finally reach Superman's body and kill him? Different colors of kryptonite also fit with that: different radiation, one doesn't disrupt the protective aura, but does disrupt the energy storage and using ability, making him powerless but not kill him. Another would disrupt the aura's ability to protect Superman from a subset of the sun's radiation: namely the ones that cause free radicals to form in his brain, causing a disruption in his brain patterns to shut down his conscience and caring, in effect turning him "evil".

[Rik Levins]

Which gets us to Superboy Prime (because this all fits, you know). Why could he move a planet and Power Girl couldn't? Power Girl was placed into this universe; her history changed, etc. etc.; the result, she's actually OF this universe, made from this universe. Superboy Prime in contrast, is not.

Some very cool ideas, threedee.

However, it wasn't Power Girl who tried (and failed) to move the Earth; it was the original Silver Age, Pre-Crisis Supergirl (Kara Zor-El) that Buried and I were referring to. She was brought into the Post-Crisis universe during the Many Happy Returns story arc (the last five issues of Peter David's Supergirl comic of a few years ago.)
So, like Superboy Prime, she was NOT a part of this universe.

[3D Master]

Some very cool ideas, threedee.

However, it wasn't Power Girl who tried (and failed) to move the Earth; it was the original Silver Age, Pre-Crisis Supergirl (Kara Zor-El) that Buried and I were referring to. She was brought into the Post-Crisis universe during the Many Happy Returns story arc (the last five issues of Peter David's Supergirl comic of a few years ago.)
So, like Superboy Prime, she was NOT a part of this universe.

True, however, she got sent to this universe by some near omnipotent being, some counterpart to the Spectre. She didn't just enter that universe from somewhere else like SB Prime. He probably made sure the dumb girl with no sense of any physics and no self control wasn't at planet busting level. Trying to move the planet, she would gone straight into the planet, panic, burst out in some random direction, probably change course mutliple times screaming for help, set of some tectonic events, and kill millions of people in the process. The guy wasn't exactly nice, but he didn't seem to want that either.

[Froggy]

Yes there is, there's a lot missing. The hotter a star burns, the closer the color gets to white (all colors together). The less hot it burns, the cooler it is, the more it is from white. Yellow is closer to white than red; a yellow sun burns hotter and thus sends out more frequencies (and also deadly frequencies) of radiation.

Which is an interesting thing. In our universe, a being coming from a planet with heavier gravity (thicker atmosphere, absorbing more radiation) orbiting a red sun (cooler, less deadly radiation), would not grow stronger here; he would die. His cellular structure wouldn't be built to handle the amount of ionizing radiation, and it would kill him.

Which begs the question: does Kryptonite radiation kill Superman (Wouldn't it also kill Kryptonians ON Krypton?), or does it just disrupt Superman's protective and energy absorbing aura, and the solar radiation can finally reach Superman's body and kill him? Different colors of kryptonite also fit with that: different radiation, one doesn't disrupt the protective aura, but does disrupt the energy storage and using ability, making him powerless but not kill him. Another would disrupt the aura's ability to protect Superman from a subset of the sun's radiation: namely the ones that cause free radicals to form in his brain, causing a disruption in his brain patterns to shut down his conscience and caring, in effect turning him "evil".
great ideas 3d, especially about the zero point energy COIE theory

[Green Lantern wannabe]

The Oan who looked back into time was Krona. (http://www.glcorps.org/krona.html) Apparently, in quantum mechanics, you cannot observe an event without changing it, under some conditions, and he did that. But I would think that, when you get to their level of technology, quantum mechanics would seem pretty quaint.

[3D Master]

The Oan who looked back into time was Krona. (http://www.glcorps.org/krona.html) Apparently, in quantum mechanics, you cannot observe an event without changing it, under some conditions, and he did that. But I would think that, when you get to their level of technology, quantum mechanics would seem pretty quaint.

Yes, it would be even more complicated, and the "you can't observe something without altering it" law even more scary than before; see what happened when Krona went to do that.

[Buried Alien]

Have you guys checked out this thread (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=156934) from the Community Forum?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Green Lantern wannabe]

Have you guys checked out this thread (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=156934) from the Community Forum?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Heh, heh, heh. Very funny. :)

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Have you guys checked out this thread (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=156934) from the Community Forum?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

*LOL* Good stuff. Thanx for the link. Not only fun, but interesting. I want to know what objects are those.