Children with high IQ's more likely to become vegetarian.

[SoulOnIce]

No surprise really.

http://www.physorg.com/news85401407.html

[Lester C.]

No surprise really.

http://www.physorg.com/news85401407.html

Soul I love you so let me break this as gently to you as I can. You are an omnivore. Evolution has dictated that you optimal diet should consist of both meat and vegetables. Look at your teeth if you don't believe me. Your canine teeth are designed to firmly hold meat so you can tear it apart with your incisors then adding to this process by shearing your food. Your molar teeth are designed to grind food, primary vegetables grain that kind of thing to better aid digestion.You are not evolved to be a herbivore and if you do so without carefully planning your diet and taking supplements your heath will deteriorate.

[Kahnno6]

Soul I love you so let me break this as gently to you as I can. You are an omnivore. Evolution has dictated that you optimal diet should consist of both meat and vegetables. Look at your teeth if you don't believe me. Your canine teeth are designed to firmly hold meat so you can tear it apart with your incisors then adding to this process by shearing your food. Your molar teeth are designed to grind food, primary vegetables grain that kind of thing to better aid digestion.You are not evolved to be a herbivore and if you do so without carefully planning your diet and taking supplements your heath will deteriorate.

What would be wrong with someone being a vegetarian and carefully planning their diet and taking supplments?

[Agent Helix]

Nothing's wrong with it. If you're a vegetarian by choice, either for dietary reasons or moral reasons, good for you. But the idea that it somehow makes you smarter, or is the "natural" way of eating, is kinda silly.

[hellokittykat]

It's probably because we think too much. I used to eat meat as long as I was able to get it down before I started contemplating where it came from ect. I was never a big meat eater anyway; I mostly only ate chicken or turkey.

I stopped eating chicken after we went to Kaui. They have all of these wild chickens running around and during the short time that we were there I of course made friends with all of the chickens near our hotel.

When we got home, I was eating a chicken something when I started to think about my little buddies in Hawaii and that was it. I couldn't eat chicken without feeling a little blecky.

[Solaris]

This is rather like saying "successful survivor mice are smaller." There might be many factors involved in these mice being both smaller and more successful survivors---but they aren't the only two pieces of data involved, nor does one necessarily mean the other.

Recent research on Africa by an economist points out something interesting that makes common sense: people who live in a higher income bracket, or who are "moving up in the world," are much more likely to follow health advice regarding AIDS transmission, than those who live at poverty levels. The information suggests that "quality of life" can have an impact on the value one places on their own health, and the effort one will put into doing what said is more healthy.

That's a tiny piece of that report... but I can see a similar influence in the study you mentioned: On average, people with a higher IQ are more likely to have read and/or seriously looked at all kinds of health issues... and there's plenty of everything from literature (i.e. American Heart Assn. cautions to limit red meats, fatty & salty intakes, etc.) to hype re: the extreme dietary inputs and systems. That's not because people with high IQ's are necessarily *smarter*---it's because they're more likely to read more, from various sources, and *encounter* more ideas about vegetarianism... and when they see "reports and studies", tend to give them a bit more credence (and follow the advice more closely) than those who only hear the basic "red meat is bad for you."

The study also mentioned that the numbers of women who switched were a bit higher than those for men. Again, more women on average than men tend to be a bit more *empathetic* than men (that's a big generalization, but somewhat true)... and thus appeals to assume vegetarianism that are based on sympathy for the animals used are more likely to find a footing with (on average) more women than men.

There are many more environmental/social factors that can play into the original statement about IQ and becoming vegetarian... which is why I cast a dim view on the implication that the two are sort of "causal" of each other, or that they support some strong indication that "smart people go vegetarian."

It's an interesting study, but the report's focus is far too narrow to be of any real use, IMO.

[Matt Algren]

I thought we were done with this "we're smarter than you" nonsense. Apparently not. No surprise really.

Going back to the abstract (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/bmj.39030.675069.55v1) at the British Medical Journal, 4.5% of the people studied declared vegetarianism, including those acknowledging that they eat fish and chicken.

According to the British Nutrition Foundation (2003 (http://www.nutrition.org.uk/home.asp?siteId=43&sectionId=651&parentSection=321&which=1)), "Between 3-7% of the UK population are vegetarian...", including those acknowledging that they eat fish and chicken.

The sample used for the BMJ study is pretty specific. Born in 1970, in UK, participating in this study, etc. Excluding those born in any year other than 1970 is enough for me to question the study. Add in other sample distribution qualifications and this becomes interesting data, but not terribly instructive.

[hellokittykat]

Also there will probably a study coming out soon that says that vegetarians are not smart. I'm sure I'm pulling down the average for the entire group.

[Agent Helix]

Screw chickens. Those guys are bastards. I'ma eat 'em.

[Agentum]

Well we had some militant vegetarians here that burned down a big house full of chickens still in it (a lot of them was still alive afterwards and had to be put to death), and they sprayed something that translated would be "stop muder hens!!!" here and there(yes spelled wrong).

So i guess some of them aren't that smart.

[Solaris]

I thought we were done with this "we're smarter than you" nonsense. Apparently not. No surprise really.

Going back to the abstract (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/bmj.39030.675069.55v1) at the British Medical Journal, 4.5% of the people studied declared vegetarianism, including those acknowledging that they eat fish and chicken.

According to the British Nutrition Foundation (2003 (http://www.nutrition.org.uk/home.asp?siteId=43&sectionId=651&parentSection=321&which=1)), "Between 3-7% of the UK population are vegetarian...", including those acknowledging that they eat fish and chicken.

The sample used for the BMJ study is pretty specific. Born in 1970, in UK, participating in this study, etc.

That's another good point:

I'd be interesting to see contrasting studies from various other decades: say, 1920, 1940, 1950, 1980. I do think environmental influence has played a large role in people adopting vegetarianism.

As to the "smarter" thing... I think what it really indicates is that people with higher IQ's tend, on average, to give more credence to scientific reports and to pseudoscience reports (the ones that really don't follow sound scientific methods, but that present their jargon and leaps to conclusions in a scientific sounding format). That's not necessarily "smarter" than those with lower IQ's---it simply means that if you have a higher one, you're more likely to read and potentially believe detailed reports, findings, etc. That can be good, or it can be bad---a lot of it boils down to the individual's discretion and discernment.

There are an awful lot of "smarts" in this world---and only some of them are related to IQ scores. A person can have genius IQ---and be the most impractical, dumb bunny out there---like leaving your keys in the car with it running, or not remembering to lock your doors at night if you live in a bad neighborhood. :D

[Lester C.]

What would be wrong with someone being a vegetarian and carefully planning their diet and taking supplments?

Nothing. I am a vegetarian and have been for close to a year now. My point is that my being a vegetarian doesn't make me a more moral, intelligent person that's somehow better than a meat eater. Some vegetarians have a real superiority complex that make them a pain in the ass to be around.

[Lester C.]

It's probably because we think too much. I used to eat meat as long as I was able to get it down before I started contemplating where it came from ect. I was never a big meat eater anyway; I mostly only ate chicken or turkey.

I stopped eating chicken after we went to Kaui. They have all of these wild chickens running around and during the short time that we were there I of course made friends with all of the chickens near our hotel.

When we got home, I was eating a chicken something when I started to think about my little buddies in Hawaii and that was it. I couldn't eat chicken without feeling a little blecky.

Why am I not surprised!:rolleyes:

[Solaris]

Also there will probably a study coming out soon that says that vegetarians are not smart. I'm sure I'm pulling down the average for the entire group.

There's nothing wrong with being a vegetarian of any type. It's a personal choice (and I respect that). My only quibble with the report is that it seems to attempt to link "smart" with "vegetarian,"... without taking into account a whole slew of other pieces of data. It's like saying "musicians are smarter," which may be true for some, but certainly isn't an "'a' always = 'b'" kind of thing.

[Matt Algren]

There's nothing wrong with being a vegetarian of any type. It's a personal choice. My only quibble with the report is that it seems to attempt to link "smart" with "vegetarian,"... without taking into account a whole slew of other pieces of data. It's like saying "musicians are smarter," which may be true for some, but certainly isn't an "'a' always = 'b'" kind of thing.
I agree with you here. Musicians are, of course, generally smarter, but bass players tend to drag the whole group down.


(I keed, I keed!)

[hellokittykat]

Why am I not surprised!:rolleyes:

I am expecting something really nice from you since I have been giving you these kinds of present throughout the year!:mad:

[hellokittykat]

Nothing. I am a vegetarian and have been for close to a year now. My point is that my being a vegetarian doesn't make me a more moral, intelligent person that's somehow better than a meat eater. Some vegetarians have a real superiority complex that make them a pain in the ass to be around.


If only it would! Then we wouldn't need an entire thread to hold your babblings.

[Lester C.]

If only it would! Then we wouldn't need an entire thread to hold your babblings.

I think we're both dragging the other vegetarians down.

[Nick Soapdish]

That's a tiny piece of that report... but I can see a similar influence in the study you mentioned: On average, people with a higher IQ are more likely to have read and/or seriously looked at all kinds of health issues... and there's plenty of everything from literature (i.e. American Heart Assn. cautions to limit red meats, fatty & salty intakes, etc.) to hype re: the extreme dietary inputs and systems. That's not because people with high IQ's are necessarily *smarter*---it's because they're more likely to read more, from various sources, and *encounter* more ideas about vegetarianism... and when they see "reports and studies", tend to give them a bit more credence (and follow the advice more closely) than those who only hear the basic "red meat is bad for you."

It sounds like they tried to account for those by adjusting for better education and higher occupational social class.

But I'm still pretty skeptical. The study was pretty narrow in its sample base and it's just the one. I'm more inclined to think that it's a statistical anomoly than to think that people that choose vegetarianism are inherently smarter. Plus, as you noted, IQ doesn't measure all the kinds of intelligence all that well.

[NickThompson]

If they were intellegent, they'd realise how nice steak is!










(joke ;) )

[Agentum]

but "meat eater" sound as you were only eating meat, mostly we eat lots of other stuff too:D

[NickThompson]

Well we had some militant vegetarians here that burned down a big house full of chickens still in it (a lot of them was still alive afterwards and had to be put to death), and they sprayed something that translated would be "stop muder hens!!!" here and there(yes spelled wrong).

So i guess some of them aren't that smart.
Similar area, close to me we had some animal rights people release Mink from a fur farm or similar. Fun fact about Mink I pulled from a quick google search:

Mink will devastate the wildlife in it's territory, preying on anything it can kill, even ducks. Destroying fish populations in rivers, it will also prey on rats, rabbits, birds livestock and even pets in gardens. This killer will obliterate a poultry unit, and is more effective than a fox.

Guess what happens when you put something like that out in an environment not meant for it?


It is believed that one of the main reasons that the Water Vole is near extinction is due to Mink. It's almost sadly ironic.

[Phrozen]

Keep in mind vegetarian by choice is a fairly new thing, Before industrialization it would be very hard to keep healthy and fit on a pure vegetarian diet. We have bone evidence of what happens when it was vegetarianism by neccessity and it isn't pretty.

So, I think the sample group in this study is probably just an anonomly.

[Grazzt]

Screw chickens. Those guys are bastards. I'ma eat 'em.

Please, everybody knows that ducks and geese are the evil fowl.

I'm actually semi-serious on this one. Have you ever been hissed at by a goose? Or had a duck drown chicks trying to teach them to swim? Waterfowl are evil.

[Jeff Brady]

Also there will probably a study coming out soon that says that vegetarians are not smart. I'm sure I'm pulling down the average for the entire group.

I am walking proof of this.

Jeff am not smrt.

[Solaris]

Please, everybody knows that ducks and geese are the evil fowl.

I'm actually semi-serious on this one. Have you ever been hissed at by a goose? Or had a duck drown chicks trying to teach them to swim? Waterfowl are evil.

And they don't taste near as good as chicken, either.

:D

Well, it's TRUE.

[Sharpandpointies]

Soul I love you so let me break this as gently to you as I can. You are an omnivore. Evolution has dictated that you optimal diet should consist of both meat and vegetables. Look at your teeth if you don't believe me. Your canine teeth are designed to firmly hold meat so you can tear it apart with your incisors then adding to this process by shearing your food. Your molar teeth are designed to grind food, primary vegetables grain that kind of thing to better aid digestion.You are not evolved to be a herbivore and if you do so without carefully planning your diet and taking supplements your heath will deteriorate.

Lester, I have bad news for you. :)

Your canines in no way resemble the canine teeth of a carnivore. Take a quick look at a carnivore's mouth.

But you were saying omnivore, right?

Well, your canines don't really resemble the canine teeth of an omnivore. A look inside a bear's mouth (preferably while the beast is asleep), a raccoon's mouth, or any other omnivore will show that pretty quickly.

In fact, your canines closely resemble the 'canines' of a gorilla. Which is a herbivore.

As a matter of fact, our teeth more closely resemble those of deer, cows, etc, than those of bears, raccoons, etc, but I'm not going to get into that. If you don't believe me, have a look at the skulls.

I'm not one to preach about vegetarians/vegans being superior people. And everyone has to make their own choice.

But I was not designed to be an omnivore.

For your reading pleasure: http://www.vegsource.com/veg_faq/comparative.htm

Yes, it's on a vegan/vegetarian board. However, the author is a registered MD. Just because it happens to be on a veggie-board doesn't mean it ain't so.

[Jack Zodiac]

Chimps. Omnivorous. We're just smarter monkeys, so we raise our own meat, cook it, and use utensils.

[NickThompson]

http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm - Humans are Omnivores, by John McArdle, Ph.D.



I think that is a debate that can run and run :)

[Sharpandpointies]

Chimps. Omnivorous. We're just smarter monkeys, so we raise our own meat, cook it, and use utensils.

You can look at evidence from both sides of the table. But nailing it down, saying that biology made us to be omnivores? Nope. There is plenty of evidence to suggest the vegetarian side of things, as well.

I'm not trying to tell people 'You were made to be vegetarians'. All I'm saying is 'don't tell me I was made to be omnivorous'.

[Sharpandpointies]

http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm - Humans are Omnivores, by John McArdle, Ph.D.

I think that is a debate that can run and run :)

Exactly.

My thought? Leave it. I won't tell other people what they were 'meant' to be, as long as they don't tell me. :)

[Night Swordsman]

Excuse me? Did anyone see my Hamburger? Yes..the one with no tomatoes or onions or cheese.

Why THANK you! Mmmm Yum! <Munchmunchmunch>


Wha? Why are you all staring?!? :confused:

[Phrozen]

You can look at evidence from both sides of the table. But nailing it down, saying that biology made us to be omnivores? Nope. There is plenty of evidence to suggest the vegetarian side of things, as well.

I'm not trying to tell people 'You were made to be vegetarians'. All I'm saying is 'don't tell me I was made to be omnivorous'.

You were made to be an omnivore.

Your digestive system is made to process simple sugers and fats i.e. meat and fruit. Yes it can process greens but not so many to get the nutritional value needed to function without severe digestive problems. Not to mention the stunted bone growth, delay in puberty, and overall poor health when vegatirianism is tried without the benefits of industrialization.

You have eyes pointing forward, 3D vision, and color vision. These are hallmarks of predators. Herbivores usually have eyes on the sides of there head, very little if any 3D vision and no color vision.

Your brain calculates 3D modeling and trajectory almost instanteously, not only of yourself but of a thrown object. This is definetly a modification for hunting as it is quite rare in the natural world.

Your body uses alot of calories, minerals, and vitamins. Humans have an high active lifestyle. That lifestyle is one of the hallmarks of a predator.

The closest relatives of humans found today are also omnivores. Chimps hunt and kill monkeys for food. They eat insect protein and fruit. They have a very active lifestyle. Gorillas are much farther away and have a much more docile lifestyle.

Now your points on the other thread:

We do not have the same jaw structure as other predators and omnivores because we have hands to help process meat and fruits instead of having to rely on just our teeth. The most apt omnivore to look at would be the Chimps who have a similar jaw structure and teeth compared to humans.

[Sharpandpointies]

You were made to be an omnivore.

Thank you very much for your opinion. I'll stick with the other way of looking at it, by Dr. Mills.

I do quite well as a vegan. No digestive problems. No need for supplements beyond B12, which wouldn't be an issue if farming practices in North America hadn't killed much of the bacteria necessary to produce B12 in our crops.

And there are several vegetarian societies around the world who aren't exactly living in built-up areas who are considered to be the longest lived people around.

Just because I can't digest cellulose doesn't mean I'm not meant to be a vegetarian - there's more to eating vegan than grass.

As to your other points, those are perfectly reasonable reasons for you to uphold the other point of view. I'll kindly thank you not to tell me what I was meant to be, especially when there is sufficient evidence pointing in the other direction.

[Jack Zodiac]

And just as much pointing in the other.

[Agent Helix]

The fact that we can healthily digest both meat and vegetation means we're an omnivorous species.

There's no "evidence" to point at one side or another. A species can either be naturally able to subsist on both forms of intake or not. Humans can. There's no debate to be had about this. We're omnivores. We can eat both plants and meat. We don't have to eat both plants and meat. But to say it's arguable that we are NOT OMNIVORES is patently ridiculous. That's like arguing against gravity, or the existence of the moon.

[titanfan]

I stopped eating chicken after we went to Kaui. They have all of these wild chickens running around and during the short time that we were there I of course made friends with all of the chickens near our hotel.


OMG! Playing with the chickens and the ducks at the hotel in Kauai is one of my all time favorite childhood memories. I wonder if we befriended any of the same chickens?

Of course, we also went to Maui in the same vacation. We went to the Ranch and the ranch had a restaurant that used the fresh meat that had come from the ranch. Best. Burger. Ever.

[Phrozen]

Thank you very much for your opinion. I'll stick with the other way of looking at it, by Dr. Mills.

I do quite well as a vegan. No digestive problems. No need for supplements beyond B12, which wouldn't be an issue if farming practices in North America hadn't killed much of the bacteria necessary to produce B12 in our crops.

And there are several vegetarian societies around the world who aren't exactly living in built-up areas who are considered to be the longest lived people around.

Just because I can't digest cellulose doesn't mean I'm not meant to be a vegetarian - there's more to eating vegan than grass.

As to your other points, those are perfectly reasonable reasons for you to uphold the other point of view. I'll kindly thank you not to tell me what I was meant to be, especially when there is sufficient evidence pointing in the other direction.


Being a medical doctor just means he is using his credentials to fool you. Being a medical doctor does not make you an Evolutionary Biologist or a Primatologist. Dr. Mills can have his opinion but the vast amount of primatologists, evolutionary biologists, archaeologists, and others who actually study the evolution of homo saipans will tell you his theory is wrong and has little evidence to back it up.

Like I said before the physiology is all wrong for a strict vegatarian diet not to mention almost impossible to do in a healthy manner without the benefits of industrialization.

Just because your diet, with the help of modern transportation and dietary science, is healthy doesn't mean it was so in the past.

[thespianphryne]

This is what I'm curious about - since when did vegetarianism become an argument for some kind of moral or genetic superiority?

There are populations that are adapted to vegetarian diets and there are populations that woud not do well on a vegetarian diet without some kind of planning and policing.

I'm from India where there are lot of vegetarians - we have two cliches:
1) South Indian Brahmins are really smart (strict vegetarians)
2) Coastal people are really smart (big fish-eaters and also meat eaters)

Both these assertions are true and both these assertions are false. Who cares? You think you're ascended to a higher plan of spiritual existence because you're more sympathetic to the plight of your fellow creatures: that's just fine. In the meanwhile, I'm also doing my part for the spiritual good of the world by ascending the soul of the dead animal I've just eaten to a higher plane of mundane existence. It all works out, man!

That said, a smart kid is also more likely to sympathise with the feelings of an animal and therefore feel more reluctant to eat meat - nothing remarkable about that.

-Das

Sort of OT: Has anyone here seen the documentary about Temple Grandin - the autistic woman who uses her unique perspective about the sensory thinking in animals in the livestock industry?

[Erebus]

My diet mainly consists of Taco Bell and Mountain Dew. Then again, I'm not entire sure if the meat in Taco Bell is really meat, so maybe I am a vegetarian...