Let's declare it official: today's Superman *is* a modified Pre-COIE Superman

[Buried Alien]

In the years between the publication of MAN OF STEEL and INFINITE CRISIS, it was ambiguous whether the Post-COIE Superman established by John Byrne in 1986 was a modified continuation of the Pre-COIE Silver/Bronze Age Superman of Earth-One or a completely different and separate entity.

Based on information that was shared in INFINITE CRISIS and its related works, I'm ready to declare that today's Superman (with Mark Waid's BIRTHRIGHT origin), the John Byrne MAN OF STEEL Superman, and the Silver/Bronze Age Superman are indeed the same being with his personal history being rewritten three times over by a combination of the universal reconfiguration following COIE (transformed Silver/Bronze Age Superman into MAN OF STEEL Byrne version), Superboy Prime's "retcon punching" (tweaked MAN OF STEEL Byrne Superman into Waid BIRTHRIGHT Superman), and the creation of "New Earth" during INFINITE CRISIS (consolidated all previous changes, adding possibility of a "Superboy" career for Clark in Smallville during his teen years).

None of this is really news, of course, but I think now, we can declare it official rather than ambiguous.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[drwho]

I dont even know what the title of this thread means.:p

[PatrickG]

I dont even know what the title of this thread means.:p

This is a discussion Buried and I, at least, have been debating for a long time.

Whether the various incarnations of Superman are the same guy with minor tweaks or separate characters.

It's easier with Batman because, in spite of tweaks, his Batcave still has a robot T-Rex. Gotham City once had giant roof props, which have been mentioned several times over the years. Paul Sloane, the actor, was the second Two-Face. And there's debate over whether Kathy Kane was ever Batwoman. (Even in 52, it's being kept ambiguous as to whether she had a prior career alongside her niece Bette, who is now Flamebird.)

With Superman, there have been a series of reboots followed by "patches" which brought more and more of the old stories back to light.

Post-IC, we know that Lex grew up in Smallville, Superman cherishes his homeworld, has an arctic fortress, a cousin Kara, Krypto the Super-dog, etc.

Every villain or idea from WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE MAN OF TOMORROW...? has been revived or revisited.

Superman founded the JLA, fought the villain Blackrock, Lex is a mad scientist. Brainiac is a robot from space. Superman had adventures as a teenager. Jimmy Olsen has had a string of super-powers. The Legion of Super-Villains is out there. More than one Bizarro is out there. Superman and Batman are friends who have teamed against Bat-Mite and Mxyzptlk twice, at least. They learned eachother's identities on a cruise.

And the modern age additions like the Lois-Clark marriage, Killgrave, Bloodsport, Riot, Shrapnel, the Rudy Jones Parasite, Eradicator and Steel are part of the story now too.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Modern Superman was Superboy in his youth?

If that´s retconned, then yes, I think we can pretty much decleare what the title of the thread says.

[J. Robb]

Nothing is declared "official" anymore because it's only official as long as the current writer is on board. The next writer may choose to do something completely different.

I'm sure this trend will end soon (thankfully) and we'll return to some semblance of editorial control, but for now- just try and enjoy the mess.

[PatrickG]

Modern Superman was Superboy in his youth?

If that´s retconned, then yes, I think we can pretty much decleare what the title of the thread says.

He was, at the least, a non-costumed adventurer named "Super-boy" by the tabloids. We know that no clear photos were taken.

Oh. And there's a tunnel from his room on the Kent Farm ala the one from his Superboy career. And he has a Legion flight ring although we don't know HOW he got it necessarily.

Lana remains an orphan but her pre-Crisis father, archaeologist Lewis Lang, is back as her uncle. I believe her uncle Phineas Potter is around too.

So whether there was a costume involved or not remains fuzzy. But he did have a career as "Super-boy" at least.

[superfriend]

I think the only instances where it has been shown that the various incarnations of Superman are different characters are Earth-2 (Kal-L), Earth-1 (Kal-El). Of course, there are divergent timelines that include Kingdom Come Superman, Red Son Superman, Tangent Superman, etc.

But the formal divisions that might indicate these are wholly different beings are only shown in those instances where the characters have the ability to interact with one another. This is the rule of thumb I use.

Therefore, I prefer to think of the current Superman as an upgraded version built on the same architecture as the Earth-1 Superman...until proven otherwise.

[Super Buddies Forever]

I think Infinite Crisis summed it up quite nicely. The Earth-1 Superman and the Post-Crisis Superman are physically the same person in the timestream, just with a history that's been rewritten and revamped time and time again. I think this is what confused Kal-L; the current Superman is essentially the same man as the one he had known, but his past experiences varied wildly and made him into a slightly different person.

While they're fundamentally the same man, I would love for a time-hopping story where the Silver Age Superman teams with the Byrne Superman and Waid Superman and see how they react to their minor differences.

[Damo]

Possible... then again...

[DemonJack]

Superman founded the JLA, fought the villain Blackrock, Lex is a mad scientist. Brainiac is a robot from space. Superman had adventures as a teenager. Jimmy Olsen has had a string of super-powers. The Legion of Super-Villains is out there. More than one Bizarro is out there. Superman and Batman are friends who have teamed against Bat-Mite and Mxyzptlk twice, at least. They learned eachother's identities on a cruise.

And the modern age additions like the Lois-Clark marriage, Killgrave, Bloodsport, Riot, Shrapnel, the Rudy Jones Parasite, Eradicator and Steel are part of the story now too.

Superman founded the JLA? How did that happen?

[The Foreigner]

DC continuity makes my head hurt. :(

[PatrickG]

Superman founded the JLA? How did that happen?

See Brave & The Bold #28.

[Buried Alien]

While they're fundamentally the same man, I would love for a time-hopping story where the Silver Age Superman teams with the Byrne Superman and Waid Superman and see how they react to their minor differences.

Byrne Superman and Waid Superman would be totally blown away by how much more powerful the Silver Age Superman is. Silver Age Superman would think about the other two, "Pfft! Wussies!" :)



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Kid Kyoto]

No.

Gotta disagree.

While a lot of the trappings have been returned the core of the character is very different.

Looking back at silver age stories we see that Superman was always haunted by his double orphan status. 'For all my power I could not save them!' was his motto. Today's superman is not haunted, the Kents are alive and well, and he never really remembers his Kryptonian parents.

Also the silver age superman was deathly afraid of letting anyone get close. The modern superman would never, ever, knock people unconcious, hit them with amnesia gas or hypnotise them to keep his secret identity. He would never, ever play cruel jokes on his friends or humiliate them to keep them from learning who he was. He would never humiliate himself the way the silver age superman did as Clark Kent.

Now some people dismiss these as hokey silver age stories but his attitudes and actions were always consistant. It was his personality. Like it or not.

In Astro City they had a character called Atomo Man (??) who was a clear silver age Superman analogue and really fleshed out this interpretation.

So again, no, give the modern superman all the super dogs and cousins and fortresses you want but in the end his personality and attitudes are very different.

[SKETCHSANCHEZ]

I agree, I've always felt that INFINITE CRISIS pretty much made it clear that Modern Superman has always been the Silver-Age Superman.

So to speak.

[SKETCHSANCHEZ]

I always figured, originally, that after COIE there was a whole new earth with elements from the others but when INFINITE CRISIS made it clear that it was just Earth 1 with elements from other earths folded into it, is basically made the modern superman "officially" the earth 1 superman all this time.

[karasu]

Of course they're the same guy. It's what happens when a character exists for seventy years without aging, progressing in his life, etc etc. You can't help but come up with all sort of wonky things like retcons, parallel universes, universes colliding, etc etc etc because the book never ends! Superman is Superman. All of this Earth one, Earth two stuff is pibble. As always, they're just changing his history and power levels over and over again.l

[SKETCHSANCHEZ]

Thanks for enlightening us, chief.

[JKCarrier]

I'm ready to declare that today's Superman (with Mark Waid's BIRTHRIGHT origin), the John Byrne MAN OF STEEL Superman, and the Silver/Bronze Age Superman are indeed the same being

What a depressing thought. :(

[dupersuper]

I'm with Karasu on this 1

[Harding Prime]

Byrne Superman and Waid Superman would be totally blown away by how much more powerful the Silver Age Superman is. Silver Age Superman would think about the other two, "Pfft! Wussies!" :)



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Waids Superman is a lot stronger then Bryne's Superman though.

[Harding Prime]

Also, to put my two cents into the discussion, I would say that rather then a transformed Superman from COIE, I would say it was a merged Superman. The terms mean different things to me.

[Sean Whitmore]

To me, it seems we're really still dealing with Byrne's/Waid's Post-Crisis Superman, in all the ways that really matter. Clark Kent is a fully realized person, Lois is not shrill and hateful, the Kents are alive, and Superman can't move planets.

DC has just now seemed to realize they can take the character work from the 80s/90s and infuse it with the fun and imagination of the old SA stories. Kandor, Krypto, super intelligence, robot Brainiac, etc.

It's Post-Crisis Superman with a Pre-Crisis twist. :)


SEAN

[Harding Prime]

Also, Superboy was not Clark Kent. Thank the F Christ.

Part of that whole Calrk is a fully realized person.

[Gernot]

I think the only reason we haven't had the MOS Superman, Birthright Superman, and Earth-1 Superman all meet is because the writers at DC don't know HOW to find all of the different Earths.

The Superman who died in Infinite Crisis was from AN Earth-2, not THE Earth-2 we've all come to know and love. Kal-L is still out there somewhere, but his Earth has been missing since 1986.

I'm one of those guys who will NEVER be convinced that we'll never see all of the Supermen (Supermans?) at the same time. I'm sure we will, but I don't know how far in the future such a meeting will take place.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

To me, it seems we're really still dealing with Byrne's/Waid's Post-Crisis Superman, in all the ways that really matter. Clark Kent is a fully realized person, Lois is not shrill and hateful, the Kents are alive, and Superman can't move planets.

DC has just now seemed to realize they can take the character work from the 80s/90s and infuse it with the fun and imagination of the old SA stories. Kandor, Krypto, super intelligence, robot Brainiac, etc.

It's Post-Crisis Superman with a Pre-Crisis twist. :)


SEAN

I agree.

Filler words to make this reply longer than it needs to be. :D
I think the only reason we haven't had the MOS Superman, Birthright Superman, and Earth-1 Superman all meet is because the writers at DC don't know HOW to find all of the different Earths.

The Superman who died in Infinite Crisis was from AN Earth-2, not THE Earth-2 we've all come to know and love. Kal-L is still out there somewhere, but his Earth has been missing since 1986.

I'm one of those guys who will NEVER be convinced that we'll never see all of the Supermen (Supermans?) at the same time. I'm sure we will, but I don't know how far in the future such a meeting will take place.

Huh? How come Kal-L is still out there somewhere? As far as I know, it's the same Kal-L from CoIE...

[glennsim]

I agree.

Filler words to make this reply longer than it needs to be. :D


Huh? How come Kal-L is still out there somewhere? As far as I know, it's the same Kal-L from CoIE...

There were enough details that they got wrong about his past (the circumstances of how he proposed to Lois, for example) that one could make an argument that something was amiss.

But I think it was really just poor research on the writer's part.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

There were enough details that they got wrong about his past (the circumstances of how he proposed to Lois, for example) that one could make an argument that something was amiss.

But I think it was really just poor research on the writer's part.

Yeah, I guess so. After all, it was the same Superman that entered the Alex Luthor's haven at the end of CoIE.

Thanx for the reply.

[Spider-Man]

The Superman who died in Infinite Crisis was from AN Earth-2, not THE Earth-2 we've all come to know and love. Kal-L is still out there somewhere, but his Earth has been missing since 1986.



With all due respect, what are you smoking? There's only been ONE "Kal-L" and only ONE "Earth-2" in the Multiverse. The Earth-2 Morrison created was in the antimatter universe but was not the Earth-2 of old.

Granted, the new Earths created by Luthor in IC weren't the originals, but Kal-L and Lois were indeed who they'd always been. Same with Superboy Prime, as they all existed outside the post-COIE timeline.

Now, as for whether or not Kal-L is really dead, it would seem that's up for debate, given recent events.

Spidey

[Buried Alien]

The Earth-2 Morrison created was in the antimatter universe but was not the Earth-2 of old.

Indeed. Before INFINITE CRISIS was published, when most people assumed that DC would never revisit the original Earth-Two concept, the protocol was to call both the actual Pre-COIE Earth-Two and Grant Morrison's antimatter universe "Earth-2." With the *real* Earth-Two now back in circulation, we can't be lazy about our typing anymore: "Earth-Two" is the Golden Age Earth of Kal-L and the JSA; "Earth-2" is Grant Morrison's antimatter universe.



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[SuperStar]

I thought that Morrison's "Earth-2" was actually Earth-1 and our Earth was Earth-2.

And they should just make Supes superpowerful and give him the Birthright origin. I liked the 1,000,000 idea of Superman just becoming more and more powerful as he absorbed more and more light from the sun.

[Buried Alien]

I thought that Morrison's "Earth-2" was actually Earth-1 and our Earth was Earth-2.

Or something like that. :)



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[666MasterOfPuppets]

And they should just make Supes superpowerful and give him the Birthright origin. I liked the 1,000,000 idea of Superman just becoming more and more powerful as he absorbed more and more light from the sun.

Agreed. But regarding Birthright, my guess is that it's only some sort of skeleton. DC will add tissue and organs little by little, until we have the whole body.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

With all due respect, what are you smoking? There's only been ONE "Kal-L" and only ONE "Earth-2" in the Multiverse. The Earth-2 Morrison created was in the antimatter universe but was not the Earth-2 of old.

Granted, the new Earths created by Luthor in IC weren't the originals, but Kal-L and Lois were indeed who they'd always been. Same with Superboy Prime, as they all existed outside the post-COIE timeline.

Now, as for whether or not Kal-L is really dead, it would seem that's up for debate, given recent events.

Spidey

Okay now. What recent events?

[karasu]

Can I just say that I despise this explanation of Superman's history as multiple earth parallel universe crisis nonsense? Ugh! Talk about baggage. It NEVER comes up when people talk about Batman or Wonder Woman. I wonder why that is. :/

[Spider-Man]

Okay now. What recent events?

See the recent first issue of the new Justice Society of America. Geoff Johns has confirmed in an interview with Newsarama that the scene of Kal-L's hand bursting from his grave is not a zombie or an imaginary scene...Kal-L and the rest of Earth-2 might be returning...

Spidey

[Buried Alien]

Can I just say that I despise this explanation of Superman's history as multiple earth parallel universe crisis nonsense?

Well, you're not obliged to participate if it upsets you.

I'm not sure why people feel obliged to show up at parties just to say, "Hey! I really hate parties! They're lame!" :confused:


Ugh! Talk about baggage. It NEVER comes up when people talk about Batman or Wonder Woman. I wonder why that is. :/

There's just as much continuity baggage with those two characters, but DC cosmology doesn't hinge on them quite the same way it does on Superman (Batman is a street hero; Wonder Woman belongs in the realm of mythology; Superman is a *science fiction* hero, so it's natural that science fiction type inquiries will concern him more).



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[karasu]

I'm not sure why people feel obliged to show up at parties just to say, "Hey! I really hate parties! They're lame!" :confused:

I don't come to forums to avoid topics. I'm here to discuss Superman like everyone else. This is an aspect of the character that I dislike, so I expressed it.

There's just as much continuity baggage with those two characters, but DC cosmology doesn't hinge on them quite the same way it does on Superman (Batman is a street hero; Wonder Woman belongs in the realm of mythology; Superman is a *science fiction* hero, so it's natural that science fiction type inquiries will concern him more).



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


I think it'd be better for DC, the comic, and everyone else if they just ignored it like they do with Batman. Then maybe they could focus on interesting stories that take place in the here & now. Instead of all of this muck with the character's history that isn't history but the history of two or three other versions of himself that supposedly don't exist but do. Then maybe Superman could get a little of the respect that he deserves. Too.much.baggage!

It would have been so great if they would have just rebooted the stories from scratch instead of trying to have all versions exist on separate plains. If they had the stones to simply end the golden and silver age stories with a measure of actual resolution/character progression, and say 'Okay, now we're going to start over and tell new Superman stories for the modern generation". But nooooo, for some odd reason they preferred to build a revisionist hell. Keeping the mythos in a loop of self reference and selective amnesia. The ultimate case of wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

[i5hawn]

I wouldn't say people ignore it more so that there haven't been as many chances to the actual history of the batman as there has with superman. with the exception of superman/batman the series batman's beginnings have been pretty much the same across the board from all writers and they never really had to revisit any of the origin information with the exception of who killed his parents. i'm still not sure if that was joe chill or metallo. i personally always liked burton's portrayal that a pre-joker joker did it.

[SKETCHSANCHEZ]

I don't come to forums to avoid topics. I'm here to discuss Superman like everyone else. This is an aspect of the character that I dislike, so I expressed it.




I think it'd be better for DC, the comic, and everyone else if they just ignored it like they do with Batman. Then maybe they could focus on interesting stories that take place in the here & now. Instead of all of this muck with the character's history that isn't history but the history of two or three other versions of himself that supposedly don't exist but do. Then maybe Superman could get a little of the respect that he deserves. Too.much.baggage!

It would have been so great if they would have just rebooted the stories from scratch instead of trying to have all versions exist on separate plains. If they had the stones to simply end the golden and silver age stories with a measure of actual resolution/character progression, and say 'Okay, now we're going to start over and tell new Superman stories for the modern generation". But nooooo, for some odd reason they preferred to build a revisionist hell. Keeping the mythos in a loop of self reference and selective amnesia. The ultimate case of wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

They did that already. Some people hated it, some people loved it, but either way it's been tried once, I dont see a need to do it again. I dont mind them trying something else, and I definitely dont feel they need to just throw everything out and start all over, similar to your phrase it would be the ultimate case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

and whats wrong with having your cake and eating it too anyway? Isnt that what we all want in life most of the time?

[666MasterOfPuppets]

See the recent first issue of the new Justice Society of America. Geoff Johns has confirmed in an interview with Newsarama that the scene of Kal-L's hand bursting from his grave is not a zombie or an imaginary scene...Kal-L and the rest of Earth-2 might be returning...

Spidey

Say what?!?!??! :eek:

Interesting. Very interesting... Thanx for the info.

So, what purpose do you think would he serve?

[Gernot]

With all due respect, what are you smoking? There's only been ONE "Kal-L" and only ONE "Earth-2" in the Multiverse. The Earth-2 Morrison created was in the antimatter universe but was not the Earth-2 of old.

Granted, the new Earths created by Luthor in IC weren't the originals, but Kal-L and Lois were indeed who they'd always been. Same with Superboy Prime, as they all existed outside the post-COIE timeline.

Now, as for whether or not Kal-L is really dead, it would seem that's up for debate, given recent events.

Spidey

Nonsense! There are as many Earth-1's, Earth-2's, Earth-3's as anybody WANTS.

I believe there was an Earth-1 that the Anti-Monitor was able to destroy because Flash failed to destroy the cannon, and AM was able to kill Superman because she and Dr. Light failed to save Superman.

Conversely, Flash DIDN'T die on another Earth-1, because Superman, Supergirl, and Dr. Light were able to defeat him with all of the other heroes' help.

It was a Crisis On Infinite Earths. By definition, that means that there was no danger of every Earth being destroyed. :)

Oh, and I'm smoking cigarettes. What are YOU smoking? ;)

[glennsim]

With all due respect, what are you smoking? There's only been ONE "Kal-L" and only ONE "Earth-2" in the Multiverse. The Earth-2 Morrison created was in the antimatter universe but was not the Earth-2 of old.

Granted, the new Earths created by Luthor in IC weren't the originals, but Kal-L and Lois were indeed who they'd always been. Same with Superboy Prime, as they all existed outside the post-COIE timeline.

Now, as for whether or not Kal-L is really dead, it would seem that's up for debate, given recent events.

Spidey

Then why did Power Girl describe the circumstances of his proposal to Lois incorrectly? Why was he shown with editor Perry White?

[Gernot]

Then why did Power Girl describe the circumstances of his proposal to Lois incorrectly? Why was he shown with editor Perry White?


Because, despite Spider-Man's protests, there HAVE been more than one Kal-El (I don't know about Kal-L, though). So, there WAS an Earth-2 Clark Kent who worked under Perry White, and another who DID work under George Taylor.

[superfriend]

It would have been so great if they would have just rebooted the stories from scratch instead of trying to have all versions exist on separate plains.

I'd recommend All-Star Superman to you. You should check it out. It's really fun and it exists on it's own. Perfect for the fan who doesn't want to deal with the history of the character as it's dealt with in the regular comics. Matter of fact, it's DC's gift to those folks...tailor made for this type of request.

Check it out.

[Harding Prime]

There's just as much continuity baggage with those two characters, but DC cosmology doesn't hinge on them quite the same way it does on Superman (Batman is a street hero; Wonder Woman belongs in the realm of mythology; Superman is a *science fiction* hero, so it's natural that science fiction type inquiries will concern him more).


Or DC just likes changing things about its favorite character because the mytho keeps changing through every type of media and the comic wants to stay current. And they like selling comics, and Superman does that pretty well.

[karasu]

and whats wrong with having your cake and eating it too anyway? Isnt that what we all want in life most of the time?


It's logically impossible. Don't ask me why the expression uses cake to get the point across, but you either have it, or you've eaten it and you don't. You can't do both at once.

[superfriend]

Seriously, for those confused and put off by Superman's origin and background is part of why the All-Star line exists.

Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely are a couple of the best talents in the comic business and it's one of the best Superman series ever.

[karasu]

I read All-Star. It's grand, but it's so Silver Age.

[superfriend]

I read All-Star. It's grand, but it's so Silver Age.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

But by that do you mean, that it was written roughly between the late 1950s/early 1960s to the early 1970s or do you mean that it's injected science fiction concepts into the origins and adventures of superheroes or how the superheroes became more human and troubled or how the character development and personal conflict have become almost as important to the superhero's mythos as super powers and epic adventures? :p

Cribbed that all from Wikipedia btw. Couldn't resist.

[karasu]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

But by that do you mean, that it was written roughly between the late 1950s/early 1960s to the early 1970s or do you mean that it's injected science fiction concepts into the origins and adventures of superheroes or how the superheroes became more human and troubled or how the character development and personal conflict have become almost as important to the superhero's mythos as super powers and epic adventures? :p

Cribbed that all from Wikipedia btw. Couldn't resist.

I don't mean to poop on the Silver age at all. There were great things about the books back then, but I've never particularly enjoyed Clark Kent as a bumbling oaf or Lex Luthor as someone who could cure cancer whenever he felt like it. But all in all, All-Star Superman is good stuff.

[superfriend]

I don't mean to poop on the Silver age at all. There were great things about the books back then, but I've never particularly enjoyed Clark Kent as a bumbling oaf or Lex Luthor as someone who could cure cancer whenever he felt like it. But all in all, All-Star Superman is good stuff.

I see where you're coming from.
It is a bit more whimsical than the more serious-minded regular books.

But I think it's the variety of portrayals through the years that allow you to cherry-pick what you like and don't like. I can certainly see how one would be disappointed when the pendulum swings away from their desired portrayal of a character.

Superman just happens to be one of the ones that's been around longest and has endured so many decades that he's changed so much--and I guess is still changing and yet with the more continuity-driven mindset employed these days, is always amalgamating previous versions. You just don't get that with a character like Cable. It's part of his charm and I guess can be a real drag too.

[Harding Prime]

It's logically impossible. Don't ask me why the expression uses cake to get the point across, but you either have it, or you've eaten it and you don't. You can't do both at once.

yeah huh....More Cake!

[SKETCHSANCHEZ]

It's logically impossible. Don't ask me why the expression uses cake to get the point across, but you either have it, or you've eaten it and you don't. You can't do both at once.

HAHAHA

I cant even begin to tell you how many times I've wondered that myself.

[phantom1592]

It's logically impossible. Don't ask me why the expression uses cake to get the point across, but you either have it, or you've eaten it and you don't. You can't do both at once.

Its always been a flawed example. You can't eat it, unless you already HAVE it.

There is also the actual process of EATING. I Have it WHILE I'm eating it. (Some would argue that the cake stays with you for a LOT longer than it should ;) )

Not to mention the complete waste to HAVE a cake WITHOUT Eating it. Who just wants to HAVE a cake?!?

Always hated that phrase.

Right up there with "Funny as Hell" That also doesn't work for me. :)

[PatrickG]

No.

Gotta disagree.

While a lot of the trappings have been returned the core of the character is very different.

Looking back at silver age stories we see that Superman was always haunted by his double orphan status. 'For all my power I could not save them!' was his motto. Today's superman is not haunted, the Kents are alive and well, and he never really remembers his Kryptonian parents.

Also the silver age superman was deathly afraid of letting anyone get close. The modern superman would never, ever, knock people unconcious, hit them with amnesia gas or hypnotise them to keep his secret identity. He would never, ever play cruel jokes on his friends or humiliate them to keep them from learning who he was. He would never humiliate himself the way the silver age superman did as Clark Kent.

Now some people dismiss these as hokey silver age stories but his attitudes and actions were always consistant. It was his personality. Like it or not.

In Astro City they had a character called Atomo Man (??) who was a clear silver age Superman analogue and really fleshed out this interpretation.

So again, no, give the modern superman all the super dogs and cousins and fortresses you want but in the end his personality and attitudes are very different.

Well, he seems to be remembering and mourning Krypton very differently now...

And they did give him three or four mentors who died while he was travelling.

And the point of Loeb's SFAS was to go for that "All these powers and I couldn't save them" motif. First with the tornado and then with Toxin.

[David Walton]

Its always been a flawed example. You can't eat it, unless you already HAVE it.

There is also the actual process of EATING. I Have it WHILE I'm eating it. (Some would argue that the cake stays with you for a LOT longer than it should ;) )

Not to mention the complete waste to HAVE a cake WITHOUT Eating it. Who just wants to HAVE a cake?!?

Always hated that phrase.

Right up there with "Funny as Hell" That also doesn't work for me. :)

It's more like keeping your cake and eating it, too. In other words, once you eat it it's gone. There is a certain pleasure attached to the anticipation of eating cake, as well as looking at a nicely designed cake. That's what the phrase originally meant, although perhaps it's poorly worded.

[Gernot]

Its always been a flawed example. You can't eat it, unless you already HAVE it.

There is also the actual process of EATING. I Have it WHILE I'm eating it. (Some would argue that the cake stays with you for a LOT longer than it should ;) )

Not to mention the complete waste to HAVE a cake WITHOUT Eating it. Who just wants to HAVE a cake?!?

Always hated that phrase.

Right up there with "Funny as Hell" That also doesn't work for me. :)

Unless it's a cake of SOAP. Who would want to eat THAT? :)

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Unless it's a cake of SOAP. Who would want to eat THAT? :)

The Joker?

Filler words.

[Kid Kyoto]

Well, he seems to be remembering and mourning Krypton very differently now...

that's because they change krypton every year or two... poor guy can't even remember what his parents looked like. :D

And they did give him three or four mentors who died while he was travelling.

And the point of Loeb's SFAS was to go for that "All these powers and I couldn't save them" motif. First with the tornado and then with Toxin.

But it's still not the all-consuming aspect it was in the late silver age/bronze age. And he does not have the pre-crisis Superman's inability to get close to people. For the Silver Age superman things like marriage, letting Clark have a good time, or telling ANYONE his identity were unthinkable. It was probably the most consistant and important part of his characterization.

They never said why (other than the old 'my enemies would strike at you') but I think this fear of intamacy went hand-in-glove with his feelings of his loss.

Sure the modern supes has a dog, and an artic fort, and has time travelled but his personality is completely different and I think that trumps the superficial things.

[PatrickG]

Sure the modern supes has a dog, and an artic fort, and has time travelled but his personality is completely different and I think that trumps the superficial things.

He's not quite the Byrne model either. "Clark is who I am and Superman is what I do." Hardly.

The current version is, well, pretty complex. I think the difficulty in grasping what makes the current version tick has led to instability with each new team and even within the runs of some teams.

When Byrne was doing art on ACTION COMICS, he even commented that the current Superman was basically the one he grew up reading more than it was the version he did in '86.

The current character is Superman first. But Smallville Clark IS Superman, the way it's being presented. And it's Smallville Clark that Lois is married to. And as for Clark Kent, the act, he seems to be establishing that. He was in Austen's run. He is now under Busiek and Johns.

The bottom line, I think, is this:

I think most people recognize that the fairy tale component of the mythos was stronger pre-1986. The ideas were absurd and should be a bit absurd. The fantasy was rich and involved.

At the same time, there are elements of Byrne's run that people love and cling to.

And the reality is that super-heroes are written differently today than they were written in 1985. There seems to be an aversion to secret identities as a central motif. The dialogue is more realistic, less "perfect", more "flawed" and funny and awkward like real human speech.

Remove Byrne from the equation and today's Superman would still be different than the 1985 version.

The running goal on the Superbooks seems to be to acheive a balance where both Byrne-derived and Silver Age ideas are equally valid. Fans who favor one over the other to an extreme get ticked and creators remix things a little more because neither option, by itself, is considered palatable.

I think the line with Busiek and Johns right now is pretty much that this is neither the Byrne Superman nor the Silver-Age model but it does incorporate anything they feel like incorporating from both. Didio seems to think of it as leaning towards the Silver-Age interpretation but he also doesn't seem to want to do much to the marriage either.

Even Morrison's All-Star take, which is pretty much my prefered version right now, is heavily Silver-Age, somewhat original in many inspired ways and, according to Morrison, rooted in Birthright.

And there's been at least one reference to All-Star Superman in continuity too. (In SUPERGIRL, they mentioned the All-Star version of the Fortress of Solitude key.)

I think much of the end result is that DC wants people to say what I've been saying all along, which is:

"Superman is Superman is Superman."

There are many Silver and Bronze Age comics which are entirely in canon now. There are also many Byrne era comics which are in the canon. And there are also chunks of Superman's history which are in flux or unknown. And by the time all is said and done, All-Star Superman may be mostly, partially or entirely workable as canon as well.

I'd like to see the highlights clarified in a meaningful way so we, as readers, have a sense of investment in the history again and know what character we're reading about. I grew up on a combination of pre-Crisis stories, post-Crisis stories, cartoons, films, serials, toys and books... and PERSONALLY, I'd like for Superman to be all of the versions I grew up with in new adventures.

But Buried's point is more metaphysical than textual.

He argued for years that the Byrne Superman was a separate character from the Silver-Age version. Not a revamp, an iteration, a reworking. A separate character. Another guy entirely who coincidentally had the same name. That he wasn't the same guy in a "What if...?"/"altered history" sense.

Look at it this way. Ultimate Spider-man is a separate character from 616 Marvel Universe Spider-man. They literally exist in different universes and could theoretically meet if the Watcher had a giant New Year's Bash and invited people from around the multiverse.

However... "House of M" Spider-man, in spite of being rich, successful and married to Gwen Stacy IS the 616 Spider-man, just altered by magic. His personality and memories changed and changed back and the two guys could not actually co-exist shy of more magic.

Sure, there may be ANOTHER universe where House of M never ended. But the actual House of M story took place in a MODIFIED Marvel Universe, not an alternate universe.

The popular Spidey married to Gwen Stacy that we read in that story is the same guy who saw Gwen die and is the same guy who is in Civil War. He just had a filter applied to him that affected his memories and personality.

My point is that the Superman of 2006 is the same guy as the Superman of 1966 in a similar way.

Some time travellers and Superboy-Prime hitting a wall have changed his memory and personality but he's the same guy -- just distorted. And he has, first-hand, had weird sci-fi moments where he remembered his pre-Crisis life. And elements of that life have reasserted.

The Superman of Emperor Joker was an outlaw fugitive asylum inmate who accidentally killed his co-workers. But he was the real Superman altered by magic. And I'd say that the "real" Superman is also the pre-1986 model, just distorted by a different kind of magic.

[superfriend]

Thanks for putting it so well Patrick, I agree with this school of thought.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

He's not quite the Byrne model either. "Clark is who I am and Superman is what I do." Hardly.

The current version is, well, pretty complex. I think the difficulty in grasping what makes the current version tick has led to instability with each new team and even within the runs of some teams.

When Byrne was doing art on ACTION COMICS, he even commented that the current Superman was basically the one he grew up reading more than it was the version he did in '86.

The current character is Superman first. But Smallville Clark IS Superman, the way it's being presented. And it's Smallville Clark that Lois is married to. And as for Clark Kent, the act, he seems to be establishing that. He was in Austen's run. He is now under Busiek and Johns.

The bottom line, I think, is this:

I think most people recognize that the fairy tale component of the mythos was stronger pre-1986. The ideas were absurd and should be a bit absurd. The fantasy was rich and involved.

At the same time, there are elements of Byrne's run that people love and cling to.

And the reality is that super-heroes are written differently today than they were written in 1985. There seems to be an aversion to secret identities as a central motif. The dialogue is more realistic, less "perfect", more "flawed" and funny and awkward like real human speech.

Remove Byrne from the equation and today's Superman would still be different than the 1985 version.

The running goal on the Superbooks seems to be to acheive a balance where both Byrne-derived and Silver Age ideas are equally valid. Fans who favor one over the other to an extreme get ticked and creators remix things a little more because neither option, by itself, is considered palatable.

I think the line with Busiek and Johns right now is pretty much that this is neither the Byrne Superman nor the Silver-Age model but it does incorporate anything they feel like incorporating from both. Didio seems to think of it as leaning towards the Silver-Age interpretation but he also doesn't seem to want to do much to the marriage either.

Even Morrison's All-Star take, which is pretty much my prefered version right now, is heavily Silver-Age, somewhat original in many inspired ways and, according to Morrison, rooted in Birthright.

And there's been at least one reference to All-Star Superman in continuity too. (In SUPERGIRL, they mentioned the All-Star version of the Fortress of Solitude key.)

I think much of the end result is that DC wants people to say what I've been saying all along, which is:

"Superman is Superman is Superman."

There are many Silver and Bronze Age comics which are entirely in canon now. There are also many Byrne era comics which are in the canon. And there are also chunks of Superman's history which are in flux or unknown. And by the time all is said and done, All-Star Superman may be mostly, partially or entirely workable as canon as well.

I'd like to see the highlights clarified in a meaningful way so we, as readers, have a sense of investment in the history again and know what character we're reading about. I grew up on a combination of pre-Crisis stories, post-Crisis stories, cartoons, films, serials, toys and books... and PERSONALLY, I'd like for Superman to be all of the versions I grew up with in new adventures.

But Buried's point is more metaphysical than textual.

He argued for years that the Byrne Superman was a separate character from the Silver-Age version. Not a revamp, an iteration, a reworking. A separate character. Another guy entirely who coincidentally had the same name. That he wasn't the same guy in a "What if...?"/"altered history" sense.

Look at it this way. Ultimate Spider-man is a separate character from 616 Marvel Universe Spider-man. They literally exist in different universes and could theoretically meet if the Watcher had a giant New Year's Bash and invited people from around the multiverse.

However... "House of M" Spider-man, in spite of being rich, successful and married to Gwen Stacy IS the 616 Spider-man, just altered by magic. His personality and memories changed and changed back and the two guys could not actually co-exist shy of more magic.

Sure, there may be ANOTHER universe where House of M never ended. But the actual House of M story took place in a MODIFIED Marvel Universe, not an alternate universe.

The popular Spidey married to Gwen Stacy that we read in that story is the same guy who saw Gwen die and is the same guy who is in Civil War. He just had a filter applied to him that affected his memories and personality.

My point is that the Superman of 2006 is the same guy as the Superman of 1966 in a similar way.

Some time travellers and Superboy-Prime hitting a wall have changed his memory and personality but he's the same guy -- just distorted. And he has, first-hand, had weird sci-fi moments where he remembered his pre-Crisis life. And elements of that life have reasserted.

The Superman of Emperor Joker was an outlaw fugitive asylum inmate who accidentally killed his co-workers. But he was the real Superman altered by magic. And I'd say that the "real" Superman is also the pre-1986 model, just distorted by a different kind of magic.

Say what?!?!?!

Hehe, just kidding. I got you (I think :)).

Regarding All-Star Superman, I agree with you. I have the feeling that sometime in the future Dan Didio and Paul Levitz will say that the whole thing is canon. And since, like you said, it's rooted in Birthright (didn't know that little fact, BTW. Where did you read it?), it won't affect Waid's work with the character.

I grew up watching several versions of the character, too. And my ideal Superman would include chunks from here and there.

[PatrickG]

There was a Morrison interview where he claimed to be basing his Krypton/origin on Birthright. I'll see if I can't find that.

However, Quitely obviously came up with his own designs and I suspect we'll see how true that winds up being when we see Superboy in All-Star Superman and/or more of Luthor's backstory.

I think the working principle of a Silver-Age Krypton with more modern sci-fi sensibilities seems to apply, the magical realism applied to the powers seems to apply and the modern revisitation of Lex as a man who grew up in Smallville seems to apply.

How closely that applies is another thing entirely.

If A-SS manages to ship on a schedule any time soon, I suspect we'll see it will have the kind of impact for Superman that DKR had for Batman. DKR is technically not canon and never will be but it altered the tone of the Batman comics and elements of it were adopted.

Or we may see it adopted in a way similar to SUPERMAN FOR ALL SEASONS or THE LONG HALLOWEEN or THE GOLDEN AGE -- where in spite of contradictions here or there, elements of it get referenced as canon because they stand out as good ideas that readers and writers can't easily forget when dealing with Superman.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Agreed. I'm thinking that All Star Superman is having an impact on the mainstream comics, something that can become only more and more prominent. And I'm guessing that what happened with Birthright will happen with ASS. First, it's "the coolest stories with the coolest artists and writers around, without having to worry about continuity". But in a while, it will be "I'm glad to announce that ASS is now part of continuity".

Or at least, it will be the jumping point from where more elements from the Silver Age will be reintroduced. More and more writers will take it as a basis from which they'll extract chunks for their mainstream stories.

And yes, the Smallville Luthor is now official, thanx to Waid and his kick-ass story, Birthright. And what do you mean with "magical realism applied to the powers"?