Rick Olney--Fibber or Mega-Giganta-Fibber?

[Gail Simone]

As a regular YABS poster, I object to being called a member of a 'fan club' or a 'sycophant.'








I prefer the term minion.

P.S. Seriously, I think that's a very bad generalization to apply to YABS posters.

It drives me nuts and it's always the first thing someone who gets spanked for rudeness goes to (I'm not talking about you, Solaris, but people in the past who have been actual JERKS).

Some of the folks here have been my friends for TEN FRICKING YEARS now, and they know full well how I feel about them. Others are new friends, but still, friends, not asskissers. The pros who do surround themselves like that, make everyone register and all, bleah, I hate it.

Gail

[colleen]

I am not a fan.

I am not a sycophant.

I am a vestal virgin in the Temple of YABS.



c

[THEDOC]

Not to get in the middle of your conversation here, but honestly? Knowing that many of the involved and the people who will hopefully be reaping whatever profits the project makes were screwed over 10,493,875 kinds of ways by Rick Olney is the biggest motivation for me to buy the book. Preview art, a plot synopsis here and there, or a list of the people involved...none of this gets me any more interested than the soap drama that led to it.

Well at this point the book is the issue perhaps an in-depth look at who caused this will be looked at down the road.

[Jack Zodiac]

I am a vestal virgin in the Temple of YABS.

Eighty-five posts? You've been defiled, you just haven't noticed it yet.

[Corrina]

I am a vestal virgin in the Temple of YABS.



c

Damn. And I don't qualify for the 'virgin' part of it.

No fair!

[JTPencils]

http://www.mafdet-siamese.co.uk/assets/kittens_graceagain.jpg
"thatss it wen I get out, I'm suing the court systeeem, the makers of these barz, and all the other vigalantees that put me here... You can't stop me!! I'm invincubull! You'll roo the day you messt with this Morine!"

(think he'll make the court reporter sign an NDA first too?)

[Gail Simone]

I am not a fan.

I am not a sycophant.

I am a vestal virgin in the Temple of YABS.



c


Yes, and I find it very disturbing that you've stayed on point and on topic with meaningful posts and no pictures of a lizard's butt.

What is WRONG with you?

Gail

[Solaris]

I'd go with henchman. :)

Well, minion, I didn't mean EVERYONE who posts here... Heh.

Seriously, I didn't mean that to be taken so strongly... and as I said, I was the volcano blowing. I should have found a better way to say the things I said... and I'm currently mad at myself for letting temper and hurt feelings get the best of me that way, instead of being more clear in how I spoke.

[Danny Donovan]

"thatss it wen I get out, I'm suing the court systeeem, the makers of these barz, and all the other vigalantees that put me here... You can't stop me!! I'm invincubull! You'll roo the day you messt with this Morine!"

(think he'll make the court reporter sign an NDA first too?)


Do you think he'd stand up in court and demand the stenographer be added to his counter suit because they were typing the negative words from the plantiffs?

[Gail Simone]

Just a couple things...

First, guys, we have to face it. This thread has already developed its own impacted center of gravity, and is pulling the moon slowly towards us, which will doom us all. No amount of late-coming, add-on rules is going to tame this twister. So I'm fine with the thread drift as long as we eventually find our way back to our holy and sacred mission, laughing at a dorkus McGorkus.

Couple things. First, got confirmation that the comics store that sued Rick is NOT the one I've previously been told about. Wasn't sure, but now we know. And it's for a considerable sum. More as it develops.

Also, got this from someone who doesn't want to come forward, for those tracking Rick's trail of tears:

"One thing you guys also might want to take into consideration is that Olney is originally from Whitesboro, Ny and then briefly Ilion, Ny and then most recently, Mohawk, Ny. God only knows that trail of broken promises and bad debt that leads from Whitesboro to Mohawk and beyond."

Gail

[TomStillwell]

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a309/Zapow21/Family%20Pictures/kitty.jpg
Kitty?

[Jack Zodiac]

Couple things. First, got confirmation that the comics store that sued Rick is NOT the one I've previously been told about. Wasn't sure, but now we know. And it's for a considerable sum. More as it develops.

So, we're up to... three now? Three retailers suing him, a couple dozen creators, and former employees? Fun!

And "Train of Tears" is already taken. The Olney Tour should be something new, hip, and edgy. How about "The Forty Dicks Tour?"

[bert]

She's got a killer unicorn and ferrets!!!

oh my god. . that *so* sounds like something you could buy at the Adult Video Megaplexx

and my lesbian sister is so into unicorns. . . I wonder if she owns this toy too?

[THEDOC]

I am not a fan.

I am not a sycophant.

I am a vestal virgin in the Temple of YABS.



c

I am a whiter shade of pale after that remark! :cool:

[JTPencils]

"One thing you guys also might want to take into consideration is that Olney is originally from Whitesboro, Ny and then briefly Ilion, Ny and then most recently, Mohawk, Ny. God only knows that trail of broken promises and bad debt that leads from Whitesboro to Mohawk and beyond."

Gail

Man oh man, Gail... he's like the Energizer Bunny of deceit. If this is really the case, it'd take a long time to gather and collate all the data. I don't know who would have that sort of time. He's already got a wall of evidence against him, this would be like bringing down the whole house.

[Solaris]

So, we're up to... three now? Three retailers suing him, a couple dozen creators, and former employees? Fun!

And "Train of Tears" is already taken. The Olney Tour should be something new, hip, and edgy. How about "The Forty Dicks Tour?"

Try "fourty dickless tour," and you're on with Olney. :D

*and I ain't speakin' wimmin here*

Also, sorry I derailed the thread with my rant. I should've spoken to Gail via PM about my anger, and I appreaciate her graciousness in how she's listened to me. Dammit, she proved me wrong.

You know... I love when that happens. :) I really do. It means things and people, for the most part, are nicer than I'm seeing at the moment of anger movement... and that gives me a lot of hope for this old world.

Now... if we could just get Olney with the agenda... but he's stuck on page 1: "HOW TO SKIN YOUR BEAR WITHOUT MRS. BEAR COMING AFTER YOU TO EAT YOUR ASS..."

;)

[Gail Simone]

Try "fourty dickless tour," and you're on with Olney. :D

*and I ain't speakin' wimmin here*

Also, sorry I derailed the thread with my rant. I should've spoken to Gail via PM about my anger, and I appreaciate her graciousness in how she's listened to me. Dammit, she proved me wrong.

You know... I love when that happens. :) I really do. It means things and people, for the most part, are nicer than I'm seeing at the moment of anger movement... and that gives me a lot of hope for this old world.

Now... if we could just get Olney with the agenda... but he's stuck on page 1: "HOW TO SKIN YOUR BEAR WITHOUT MRS. BEAR COMING AFTER YOU TO EAT YOUR ASS..."

;)

You, ma'am, can go STRAIGHT TO HELL!

Gail, hates to be unpredictable... ;)

[Papergirl]

Oh, dear sweet Jesus. I don't know if my eyes are going to survive screen capping his posts. And his mangling of the English language and basic gramma are giving me a wild migraine.


*wimpers in pain*

~Bev

[Jack Zodiac]

Yes, cry! Cry for me! Let me collect your tears and drink them like sweet, sweet wine. Ah hahahahahaha- ah heh ahem!

...that was, uh... my Olney impression?

[Gail Simone]

Oh, dear sweet Jesus. I don't know if my eyes are going to survive screen capping his posts. And his mangling of the English language and basic gramma are giving me a wild migraine.


*wimpers in pain*

~Bev

It's funny to see Inez with red hair. 'Course, it IS a wig, so...

Gail

[Larry Dixon]

It's funny to see Inez with red hair. 'Course, it IS a wig, so...

Gail

Just don't call her CRAZY. She don't COTTON to it! /injoke

[Jack Zodiac]

It's funny to see Inez with red hair. 'Course, it IS a wig, so...

Y'mean Crazy Inez? Y'know... 'cause she's crazy.

[Papergirl]

It's funny to see Inez with red hair. 'Course, it IS a wig, so...

Gail
Hee! The recoloring of the hair was done specially for me by the lovely Sara Heiney-Ramirez (http://www.iartramirez.com/). She even did 3 different shades of red for me. :)

~Bev

[Danny Donovan]

It's funny to see Inez with red hair. 'Course, it IS a wig, so...

Gail


My colorist Sara Heiney-Ramirez did that for her. Anyone interested in seeing some of her other fine work can visit:

http://www.iartramirez.com

I found a nice scan of Outlaw on the intarwebz and Sara made her a wild redhead for Bev.


Bev beat me to the draw.. But might I add, everyone see the awesome manga pages she's doing for me. She's a all-round talent. ;)

[Papergirl]

My colorist Sara Heiney-Ramirez did that for her. Anyone interested in seeing some of her other fine work can visit:

http://www.iartramirez.com

I found a nice scan of Outlaw on the intarwebz and Sara made her a wild redhead for Bev.


Bev beat me to the draw.. But might I add, everyone see the awesome manga pages she's doing for me. She's a all-round talent. ;)

Sara is extremely talented. I can totally see why Olney went through the roof when you "stole"* her from him! :D

Oh, and if you look at my sig, I'm linking to her site!

~Bev
*At least, that's Olney's story, and he's sticking to it!

[Danny Donovan]

Sara is extremely talented. I can totally see why Olney went through the roof when you "stole"* her from him! :D

~Bev
*At least, that's Olney's story, and he's sticking to it!

She is! shame on me for knowing her years before she came to the mini con. :-p Obviously that was part of my evil schemes involving Dr. Doom's time platform. ;)

[neko onna]

Ok...St Jude's update:

A massive search was done by a sweet, nice lady and has turned up NOTHING so far. She used every name combination and search function she could come up with. She is now going to contact Rick to get some information from him to try to prove/disprove his claims. I warned her of his lack of cooperation and belligerence.

But again, so far, it looks like it is another pile of hogwash from peanut.

sorry I am a little behind..but DAMN...I kinda had a feeling just form the stories that were posted here that this was what was going to come of this..so i am not really surprised...I just keep thanking little baby jesus that I never crossed paths with this guy

[neko onna]

I endorsed Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays and The Amy Center, a Child Advocacy Group. I ran ads for them in my comics. In fact, I approached Covenant House about supporting them with ads, and I went through the whole approval process. Then there was a scandal alleging sexual abuse at Covenant House, and I decided not to run any ads for them.

c

You know I didn't think I could love you anymore then you posted this...*swoon*

[Danny Donovan]

Hey I found Rick's lawyer! (not really)

This is just an odd piece of spam I got (oddly enough for a stock pick thing)

"subj: be prosecuted for

No longer, you steal music. World including united, states.
Ip address has been.

That businesses and can be prosecuted for, not anonymous. Edonkeythe edonkey network is no longer you steal music. When illegally download ip address.
Anonymous when, illegally download. Have ruled, that businesses! Have ruled that businesses and can be!

Movies, are, breaking the law courts around world. Breaking the law courts, around world including united states? Edonkey network is no longer you steal music. Around world including united states supreme court have. That businesses and can be prosecuted, for not anonymous?

Can be prosecuted for. Ruled that businesses and can, be prosecuted for not.
Courts around, world including. The, law courts around world including!
Have ruled that businesses and can be. For, not anonymous when illegally download ip.
That businesses and can be prosecuted, for not anonymous."

for some reason I read that and I thought this would be where Rick gets his legal advice from. :) Thank you Klostov.

[Papergirl]

Hey I found Rick's lawyer! (not really)

This is just an odd piece of spam I got (oddly enough for a stock pick thing)

"subj: be prosecuted for

No longer, you steal music. World including united, states.
Ip address has been.

That businesses and can be prosecuted for, not anonymous. Edonkeythe edonkey network is no longer you steal music. When illegally download ip address.
Anonymous when, illegally download. Have ruled, that businesses! Have ruled that businesses and can be!

Movies, are, breaking the law courts around world. Breaking the law courts, around world including united states? Edonkey network is no longer you steal music. Around world including united states supreme court have. That businesses and can be prosecuted, for not anonymous?

Can be prosecuted for. Ruled that businesses and can, be prosecuted for not.
Courts around, world including. The, law courts around world including!
Have ruled that businesses and can be. For, not anonymous when illegally download ip.
That businesses and can be prosecuted, for not anonymous."

for some reason I read that and I thought this would be where Rick gets his legal advice from. :) Thank you Klostov.
Oh my God! That looks exactly like Olney's posts do to me right now!!

*has been screen capping all night*

Flippin' hell, but this asshat posts just to see his own name in "print"!

~Bev

[Sarah Beach]

As a regular YABS poster, I object to being called a member of a 'fan club' or a 'sycophant.'








I prefer the term minion.

P.S. Seriously, I think that's a very bad generalization to apply to YABS posters.


No!No!No! "Performing seals from the troll tank!"

Come on! Don't you just love that designation? Oh! Excuse me, I mean "descriptive". :evilsmile

[Danny Donovan]

Oh my God! That looks exactly like Olney's posts do to me right now!!

*has been screen capping all night*

Flippin' hell, but this asshat posts just to see his own name in "print"!

~Bev

Also to take credit for inventing firearms and for inventing cheese. and movable type.

It reminds me of an episode of the Earthworm Jim cartoon where Jim meets the mystical all powerful fur barren trout, and basically all the trout does is bitch and moan about how everything sucks and he invented all the good stuff.

Or you know, how he has connections to Teddy Roosevelt.

http://www.jazmaonline.com/interviews/interviews2.asp?intID=290

[Papergirl]

Oh my God! That looks exactly like Olney's posts do to me right now!!

*has been screen capping all night*

Flippin' hell, but this asshat posts just to see his own name in "print"!

~Bev
Okay. I need a few hours nap, I think. My head is killing me.

Can I sue Olney for pain and suffering?

~Bev

[Sarah Beach]

Danny, I'd read that interview before... but I'd forgotten that he'd mentioned the possibility that he'd make it to San Diego last summer.

So glad he didn't. The mere thought of looking back in time and knowing that he was somewhere in that mass..... don't want to think about it. Ew, especially since Gail was a guest of honor, and he'd probably have turned up at one of the panels with her, which would have meant I'd have been inthe same room........ Ew.

(I'm up too late. I should fold).

Oh! And I meant to add this some time ago ---
DEFINITION:
Vigilantee: (noun) an insect that maintains night watches over golf tees.

[Danny Donovan]

Danny, I'd read that interview before... but I'd forgotten that he'd mentioned the possibility that he'd make it to San Diego last summer.

So glad he didn't. The mere thought of looking back in time and knowing that he was somewhere in that mass..... don't want to think about it. Ew, especially since Gail was a guest of honor, and he'd probably have turned up at one of the panels with her, which would have meant I'd have been inthe same room........ Ew.

(I'm up too late. I should fold).

Oh! And I meant to add this some time ago ---
DEFINITION:
Vigilantee: (noun) an insect that maintains night watches over golf tees.

lol. I have wanted to go back to San Deigo at some point. Only did the show once, it's usually held around my birthday and I *hate* traveling on my birthday but it's such a nice show. Hopefully if things go well this year I may try to make it out.

:)

[Sparvid]

Sara is extremely talented. I can totally see why Olney went through the roof when you "stole"* her from him! :D

Oh, and if you look at my sig, I'm linking to her site!

~Bev
*At least, that's Olney's story, and he's sticking to it!
But sticking to one story doesn't sound like Olney...

[Hybrid2]

For the people not liking the donut jokes and kitten pictures(shame on you)

Just think of it as a comercial brake.

Some of us need that after reading 10 pages of Olney's inane post.


ps.not sure inane is a word,think i've seen it somewhere.:D

[Cam63]

"We'll see how that little vigilantee group function
> as one by one they're picked from the group and made legal examples of."

Is this a mix of a vigilante and a manatee? Are they endangered by passing motor boat props?

Gail

Do not make fun of our manatees who stand vigil.

[Cam63]

Okay. I need a few hours nap, I think. My head is killing me.

Can I sue Olney for pain and suffering?

~Bev

Yes, I believe you can.

[JamesRitcheyIII]

Whoa there cowboy!

I'm not an ageist(I think that's the correct spelling). So please don't call me that again. I don't subscribe to any kind of "isms" let alone that one. Good work, is good work. Doesn't matter who it's coming from.


What I was commenting on is how Rick might feel. And where that attitude might come from. So he starts pointing fingers at someone...anyone...

And he starts making excuses. He grows bitter.

What I was trying to say is that attitude is strange coming from someone in his age group.

Typically it is younger people that resent the people more successful than. I'm not saying that's right. It's immature and I don't agree with it. I guess I could have been more clear on that point.

Looking back at my post I can see how it could be read that way. But it's honestly not how I meant it. Apparently I failed in making myself clear. To which I am sorry.

But at the same time, I don't to be viewed as a hateful person. So I hope this clears the air abit.

Jeez, Drew, don't sweat it--I don't think of you in that way at all, and you've never given anyone a reason to think of you as a Hater, that I know of. I do realize now that your criticism was more of a commentary on The Whales' mental age ('terrible twos' come to mind) than his physical. Mark it as a fit from an aging writer/artist who is really wrestling with hope, despair and his own marketability, regardless of his >koff<rather prodigious>koff< talent, in between Anxiety Attacks as he slowly and painfully approaches the ugly day that he becomes a person in his late 'Forties. :D

[Danny Donovan]

Jeez, Drew, don't sweat it--I don't think of you in that way at all, and you've never given anyone a reason to think of you as a Hater, that I know of. I do realize now that your criticism was more of a commentary on The Whales' mental age ('terrible twos' come to mind) than his physical. Mark it as a fit from an aging writer/artist who is really wrestling with hope, despair and his own marketability, regardless of his >koff<rather prodigious>koff< talent, in between Anxiety Attacks as he slowly and painfully approaches the ugly day that he becomes a person in his late 'Forties. :D

What? Someone going on a ranting tirade on the internet? My world is shattered. This sort of thing just doesn't go on here. Everyone's nice and loves each other! :-p.

[JamesRitcheyIII]

What? Someone going on a ranting tirade on the internet? My world is shattered. This sort of thing just doesn't go on here. Everyone's nice and loves each other! :-p.

D. Dilton, did you know there's a race of aliens who live on the moon, who look just like old photographs of Friedrich Nietzsche? Their sole reason for existing is to cause confusion and mayhem in the human sphere of existence. Example:
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/jamesritcheyiii/nietzsche1.jpg

One is in your room.

RUN!

[Cam63]

D. Dilton, did you know there's a race of aliens who live on the moon, who look just like old photographs of Friedrich Nietzsche? Their sole reason for existing is to cause confusion and mayhem in the human sphere of existence. Example:
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/jamesritcheyiii/nietzsche1.jpg

One is in your room.

RUN!

How the fuck did that bugger eat ?

[OzBat!]

Soup. The Mo' filtered out anything potentially nutritious.

[Cam63]

...and what happened to the rest of his body ?

The fucker could use some sunlight too.

[JamesRitcheyIII]

Soup. The Mo' filtered out anything potentially nutritious.

It has been conjectured that Nietzsche himself was one of these 'Moon-Men'--ergo, he would not need sustenance, other than the energies deriving from the angst and befuddlement of humankind.
:D

[JamesRitcheyIII]

...and what happened to the rest of his body ?

The fucker could use some sunlight too.

That's preposterous!

It's a marble bust of Nietzsche, you silly man!


All kidding aside, the weirdness of this is that it's actually one of Carl Jung's case histories, of a woman under hypnosis. Detailed descriptions of subterranean moon cities, and that Nietzsche was an envoy--but actually attempting to warn mankind against his brethren.

I hope Danny's all right, though--that one was real--he's never that confused!

[Papergirl]

But sticking to one story doesn't sound like Olney...

Oh, it's just like his story about having a lawyer. You never get details and he always insists he has one.

Yes, I believe you can.

Oh good! I'll get my cat with a law degree to draft the paperwork right away.

~Bev

[Cam63]

Really, Jim ?

I'm sure I saw him move...

[Dreadstar]

Can I sue Olney for pain and suffering?

~Bev

I don't know... how much pain and suffering were you looking to get from him?

[TomStillwell]

Just a couple things...

First, guys, we have to face it. This thread has already developed its own impacted center of gravity, and is pulling the moon slowly towards us, which will doom us all. No amount of late-coming, add-on rules is going to tame this twister. So I'm fine with the thread drift as long as we eventually find our way back to our holy and sacred mission, laughing at a dorkus McGorkus.

Couple things. First, got confirmation that the comics store that sued Rick is NOT the one I've previously been told about. Wasn't sure, but now we know. And it's for a considerable sum. More as it develops.

Also, got this from someone who doesn't want to come forward, for those tracking Rick's trail of tears:

"One thing you guys also might want to take into consideration is that Olney is originally from Whitesboro, Ny and then briefly Ilion, Ny and then most recently, Mohawk, Ny. God only knows that trail of broken promises and bad debt that leads from Whitesboro to Mohawk and beyond."

Gail

I do have all of Olney's previous addresses if that helps.

[Papergirl]

I do have all of Olney's previous addresses if that helps.

You're at the very top of my list of People-NOT-To-Piss-Off.

:eek:

Good job!

~Bev

[EdContradictory]

Nat, in fact, it's SO confidential... Rick's lawyer doesn't even know he's Rick's lawyer. Now that's just sneaky.

"Listen Mr. Lawyer-guy, your commercial said that if 'I have a phone, I have a lawyer'! Well, you commie, I have a phone!

It got turned off for not paying the bill... but I have one."

[KevinTBrown]

I do have all of Olney's previous addresses if that helps.

Note to self: ALWAYS remain on Tom's good side.


:)

[DocAbsurd]

Well.

Did some searching before work today, and found a few things over at the ComicBookConventions (http://www.comicbookconventions.com/forum/index.php?action=search2) (search for 'Migthy MiniCon)site.

Veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery interesting.

For example:

Besides having a couple of yearly independent comics related events, I am also the founder and director of an 11 year old grass roots younger reader's organization known as Organized Readers of Comics Associated (ORCA). We're pretty much the spearhead of getting the comic book introduced into school and library environments. To date, our freely given comic books total in the neighborhood of 6-7 hundred thousand during our 11 year existence.

Or this:

That's right, we're not going anywhere. Truth be told, the staff of the MMC site is working hard to make 2005 a stellar year for everyone involved. We want to make our site memorable at the very least, drawing some much deserved attention to our talented columnists and visiting creators. We've got some big changes planned for the new year and we'd like every one of you to be in on them.

The first major change has come early; two weeks ago, we officially introduced Timothy J Tobolski as our official PR man. Yes, he's a real person (who's better known by his screen name Doc Absurd as well as his cartooning); yes, he'll be handling all press releases and site updates and such (like this one); yes, he has a hard time referring to himself in the third person; and yes, you can expect his humor to be prevalent through all communications from now on. And we'd like to apologize ahead of time for that. Sorry.

Updates? We've got 'em in spades this week: Rick Olney is safely locked away In A Nutshell; Danny Donovan's Radio Free Comix tunes in crystal clear with a double dose to close out the year; Sam Catalino has been sent back to his room and is teaching some much neglected comics history in Catalino's Corner; Tim is still playing with toys and babbling incoherently in not one, not two, but three Six Points of Articulation; and last -- but most assuredly not least -- we'd like to welcome William D Prystauk to our ever expanding ranks of columnists as he finishes off 2004 with a critical word about a few recent movies. Yeah, we've got your entertainment covered for the upcoming 365. Read the columns at the Mighty Mini Con site (http://www.mightyminicon.com/) and do please register to comment in the forums. These guys like to know someone besides family reads their columns.

Now, getting back to those changes . . .

Apart from having a new front man for the new year, we'll also see a new front page, making it easier to find and read both fast-breaking news stories (sorry, Kermit) and columns; a few select webstrips, starting with GAAK (Groovy Ass Alien Kreatures); regular column updates; and an expanding forum to keep the discussions as diverse as we can manage. We're also starting an advertising banner program to work in conjunction with your business or website. Please feel free to contact either Rick Olney (orcafresh@att.net) or Timothy J Tobolski
(TightLipEntertainment_DocAbsurd@att.net) for more details, or, better yet, to get your advertising in early. You never know when that rush will hit.

I'd forgotten he hired me as PR for a while. Which I never got paid for. Surprise, surprise.

Oh, and that was followed by 3 deleted posts by the moderator, one called 'Mighty MiniCon Rip Off' and one from Moby hisself, with an explanation of 'The preceeding 3 posts were removed due to possible legal action concerning the parties involved.

Webmaster Brian'. Damn,that imaginary attorney of his has been busy, busy busy.

Then there's this:

The convention starts off with an OPEN HOUSE Karioke Contest co-sponsored by a local radio station, and a charity auction for the St Jude Children's Hospital on Saturday evening hosted by ORCA, Organized Readers of Comics Associated. ORCA, the not-for-profit, grass roots comic book reader's advocacy organization has joined with the Small Press Association (SPA) to focus on independent and self publishing friendly tactics to benefit younger readers. Several SPA members will be helping out with the auction.

Items include area donated non-comics items and gift packages, statues, autographed comics, and a Ultimate Spider-Man cels autographed by Joe Quesada!

That's about the 2004 MMC. Which never happened.

Read through all those entries. It's an A and B list of guests. He's fecking lucky all those creators aren't on his arse for last minute cancellations. I'd completely forgotten about Jeremy Bulloch (Boba Fett); he was extremely pissed when the show got canned (as was I). Mr Bulloch had to make travel arrangements from the UK.

How the hell could someone be so 'misguided'?




Doc 'GPS' Absurd

[wishlish]

Nice to meet you, Ray, and you're very welcome here!

Gail

Thanks very much. This is a fun place!

[AIPman1]

Not to get in the middle of your conversation here, but honestly? Knowing that many of the involved and the people who will hopefully be reaping whatever profits the project makes were screwed over 10,493,875 kinds of ways by Rick Olney is the biggest motivation for me to buy the book. Preview art, a plot synopsis here and there, or a list of the people involved...none of this gets me any more interested than the soap drama that led to it.

Well, the Unscrewed site and this thread serve that purpose, so telling people about where to go is just as good as rehashing all of it. I honestly do not want to give Olney the additional ego boost that he seems to get from people telling these stories. My intention is to shine light on the positives that came out of it, not glorify Rick's "I'm the baddest" image by giving HIM more press than he deserves.

Like I told Lance in private (lol, I THINK I told him in private...) I'll be first in line to print news stories about Olney's convictions, but until then, He's not the story.

[AIPman1]

Hee! The recoloring of the hair was done specially for me by the lovely Sara Heiney-Ramirez (http://www.iartramirez.com/). She even did 3 different shades of red for me. :)

~Bev

but, but....now it's not animated!!!!

[Papergirl]

but, but....now it's not animated!!!!
My next avatar change will be to an animated Poison Ivy (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=4263215&postcount=79) one that Brian "Vash" Ashby (he also made the Inez avatar I was using before) did on request for me. Check out the rest of his work in that thread! :)

~Bev

[TCJohnson]

That's about the 2004 MMC. Which never happened.

Read through all those entries. It's an A and B list of guests. He's fecking lucky all those creators aren't on his arse for last minute cancellations. I'd completely forgotten about Jeremy Bulloch (Boba Fett); he was extremely pissed when the show got canned (as was I). Mr Bulloch had to make travel arrangements from the UK.


Is this the one that was cancelled because his parents died?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I don't think Gail's being too rough at all on Olney. He started this entire 8,800+ thread on his actions. At 1st he tried to proclaim that his negative press was better than no PR. He seemed to love the attention at 1st and loved playin the " Bad Guy " .

But I'm sure he never thought things would go this far. Tom laid out an awesome point. I'm thinking Olney believed that TOS #1 could be put out and then pay everyone. That he could hook the creators long enough to do this and the result is what we saw.

Plus I love Criss Cross's work. I wish he would have stayed on Firestorm longer than he did. Him & Dan Jolley really made me a fan of Jason Rusch.

[Kozemp]

As a regular YABS poster, I object to being called a member of a 'fan club' or a 'sycophant.'








I prefer the term minion.


I prefer "plebe."

Oh, that's right, I brought that shit back.

JLK
retro

[Gail Simone]

I prefer "plebe."

Oh, that's right, I brought that shit back.

JLK
retro

hahahahaha!

Man, that's funny for some reason. :)

Gail

[Smileybonex]

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/2250/image02im7.jpg

This is Toby - He was with us for 3 weeks until he passed away with Crystals in the Bladder.

Sorry for the sad story, but after all the Kitten pics I had to fetch-out this one.

[wishlish]

I am not a fan.

I am not a sycophant.

I am a vestal virgin in the Temple of YABS.



c

If this Olney mess leads to comics by Simone and Doran...will it have been worth it?

[DrewEdwards]

Jeez, Drew, don't sweat it--I don't think of you in that way at all, and you've never given anyone a reason to think of you as a Hater, that I know of. I do realize now that your criticism was more of a commentary on The Whales' mental age ('terrible twos' come to mind) than his physical. Mark it as a fit from an aging writer/artist who is really wrestling with hope, despair and his own marketability, regardless of his >koff<rather prodigious>koff< talent, in between Anxiety Attacks as he slowly and painfully approaches the ugly day that he becomes a person in his late 'Forties. :D

Okaly dokaly. ;)

[jesshickman]

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/2250/image02im7.jpg

This is Toby - He was with us for 3 weeks until he passed away with Crystals in the Bladder.

Sorry for the sad story, but after all the Kitten pics I had to fetch-out this one.
Awwww.. :( :( :(

[Ronée]

I just want to say that I am here because Gail is a friend to me.. and has helped me through a very difficult time in my life. In fact, I do not currently read anything she is writing (sorry Gail lol) not on purpose, just my tastes are more indy and extreme at the moment...

I know she has apologized but I take the comment that everyone here is a fan club and not independent thinkers as very offensive to me personally but luckily, my contempt for Olney surpasses it and I think this thread needs to stay on the topic at hand and not into mod crap, the kitten pics are cute but come on, and the discussions concerning the article for unscrewed. there are other places for that stuff correct?

[GCom]

OKay, I'm back. Comics retail land has kept me busy for a couple of days and I can't afford to go back and read up in-depth at this time. Can someone catch me up? And I owe a few of you some emails.

Damnit Gail, BoP #102 sold out before I could read it this week. If the book wasn't so good, I could read it. Now I gotta wait for a re-order.


With Tolerance For Newsflashes... (The Computer Alerts Me When Someone Says "Alert" Or "Newsflash!")...

GCom

[neko onna]

Read through all those entries. It's an A and B list of guests. He's fecking lucky all those creators aren't on his arse for last minute cancellations. I'd completely forgotten about Jeremy Bulloch (Boba Fett); he was extremely pissed when the show got canned (as was I). Mr Bulloch had to make travel arrangements from the UK.

Wait..Had Jeremy already flown over here before it was cancelled...please tell me that didn't happen. Jeremy and his beautiful wife usually travel together to shows...I could not imagine how upset they must have been..two of the sweetest people you will ever meet.

Oh and in case Reek is reading this..Jeremy did work for Q a few times...he's got connections! *cue Bond music*LOL!

[MacQuarrie]

I'd go with henchman. :)

I'm either a lackey or an underling.

[Corrina]

Isn't Larry the Lackey? :)

[MacQuarrie]

Isn't Larry the Lackey? :)

I guess I'm an underling then.

Do we get those cool shirts with our henchman code-names printed on them? And the domino masks?

[Jack Zodiac]

Also to take credit for inventing firearms and for inventing cheese. and movable type.

It reminds me of an episode of the Earthworm Jim cartoon where Jim meets the mystical all powerful fur barren trout, and basically all the trout does is bitch and moan about how everything sucks and he invented all the good stuff.

Or you know, how he has connections to Teddy Roosevelt.

http://www.jazmaonline.com/interviews/interviews2.asp?intID=290

Ugh, I read that piece of shit the other night. It was painful.

"Quick, ask me how awesome I am!"
"Alright... how awesome are you?"
"I am so awesome, I single-handedly built the Great Wall of China! With my cock!"

How the fuck did that bugger eat ?

His mustache broke down proteins and minerals and absorbed them into his body for him.

Oh, and that was followed by 3 deleted posts by the moderator, one called 'Mighty MiniCon Rip Off' and one from Moby hisself, with an explanation of 'The preceeding 3 posts were removed due to possible legal action concerning the parties involved.

Perfect! So he's used to this. No reason to fret folks, Rick's used to suing random people unnecessarily over Internet arguments!

I prefer "plebe."

Oh, that's right, I brought that shit back.

"It's okay, I'm taking it back."

[Cam63]

"Listen Mr. Lawyer-guy, your commercial said that if 'I have a phone, I have a lawyer'! Well, you commie, I have a phone!

It got turned off for not paying the bill... but I have one."

I wonder if he still tries to use it ?

[NatGertler]

I'm either a lackey or an underling.Gail has both minions and wominions.

[THEDOC]

Well, the Unscrewed site and this thread serve that purpose, so telling people about where to go is just as good as rehashing all of it. I honestly do not want to give Olney the additional ego boost that he seems to get from people telling these stories. My intention is to shine light on the positives that came out of it, not glorify Rick's "I'm the baddest" image by giving HIM more press than he deserves.

Like I told Lance in private (lol, I THINK I told him in private...) I'll be first in line to print news stories about Olney's convictions, but until then, He's not the story.

I'm with Ian on this, started to get ideas on how to do the article.

[THEDOC]

That's about the 2004 MMC. Which never happened.

Read through all those entries. It's an A and B list of guests. He's fecking lucky all those creators aren't on his arse for last minute cancellations. I'd completely forgotten about Jeremy Bulloch (Boba Fett); he was extremely pissed when the show got canned (as was I). Mr Bulloch had to make travel arrangements from the UK.

How the hell could someone be so 'misguided'?




Doc 'GPS' Absurd

Wasnt that the one Alex Nino and Tim Gula were to go to and he was gonna contact Tim with airline ticket info and never did then I had to call Tim to tell him the con was cancelled?
Should had known then "Rick" was no good.

[Jack Zodiac]

Gail has both minions and wominions.

She's got girl parts and boy parts? :eek:

[Danny Donovan]

"I am so awesome, I single-handedly built the Great Wall of China! With my cock!"

I once saved an entire village in Denmark by plugging a hole in a leaky dam with mine. Where's my parade? WHERE'S MY PARADE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TCJohnson]

She's got girl parts and boy parts? :eek:

Yup. They are not hers, of course...at least not originally, but she has a huge collection in the basement.

[Paul D. Storrie]

Read through all those entries. It's an A and B list of guests. He's fecking lucky all those creators aren't on his arse for last minute cancellations. I'd completely forgotten about Jeremy Bulloch (Boba Fett); he was extremely pissed when the show got canned (as was I). Mr Bulloch had to make travel arrangements from the UK.

Just when I thought I couldn't get more irked with Olney, I find I can. From hanging out and chatting from time to time at conventions, I can say first hand that Jeremy Bulloch is a tremendously nice guy, soft spoken and exceedingly pleasant. To get him riled seems like a pretty herculean task.

Then again, irking people seems to be the one thing at which Olney EXCELS.

PDS

[Sarah Beach]

Originally Posted by DocAbsurd
Read through all those entries. It's an A and B list of guests. He's fecking lucky all those creators aren't on his arse for last minute cancellations. I'd completely forgotten about Jeremy Bulloch (Boba Fett); he was extremely pissed when the show got canned (as was I). Mr Bulloch had to make travel arrangements from the UK.
Just when I thought I couldn't get more irked with Olney, I find I can. From hanging out and chatting from time to time at conventions, I can say first hand that Jeremy Bulloch is a tremendously nice guy, soft spoken and exceedingly pleasant. To get him riled seems like a pretty herculean task.

Then again, irking people seems to be the one thing at which Olney EXCELS.

PDS
And that's another one of those things... that Bulloch had been expected to make his travel arrangements himself! It rather boggled me.

I mean, I don't know how common that actually is, but the practice for Mythcon has been that the ConCommittee makes & pays for the travel arrangements after consulting with the guest's preferences. (At least when I chaired it. But I've never heard any of our GofHs complain about the travel arrangements.)

[Paul D. Storrie]

And that's another one of those things... that Bulloch had been expected to make his travel arrangements himself! It rather boggled me.

I mean, I don't know how common that actually is, but the practice for Mythcon has been that the ConCommittee makes & pays for the travel arrangements after consulting with the guest's preferences. (At least when I chaired it. But I've never heard any of our GofHs complain about the travel arrangements.)

It's nearly unheard of. Convention promoters/committees take care of that stuff for Guests.

In fact, the closest thing I've ever heard to this is when a convention promoter volunteered to put me up for free, even though he couldn't afford to fly me in. HOWEVER, this was completely different because I was merely a professional trying to decide if it was cost effective for me to attend the show, rather than an invited Guest of Honor.

Yup, you read that right -- the promoter went out of his way to help me make it to the show even though I was "just" an attending professional.

Quite the contrast between that and the antics of Olney.

PDS

[Danny Donovan]

There are some conventions where it's not cost effective to give the same treatment to everyone, but guests who are invited at the behest of the promoter usually get a free ticket out, and get put up as well as paid for their time, because ordinarily, people such as bulloch make their livings doing appearances at fan conventions. And ESPECIALLY international ones.

Having someone fly out of the UK on their own dime to a show that may or may not have 20 people to buy autographs etc is reprehensible. Because said star could get a better offer at any number of top shows which would.

Time wasted is money out of the bank for some people. Sometimes there is a cancelation fee involved, but other times talent have to eat the loss.

While not EVERYONE gets the same treatment at a convention, not everyone eneds to, there are certain names a show must have to draw a crowd, and the bigger the crowd the better for those people who have to make their own way to a show.

it's this kind of behavior (Rick's) that sours people on the industry. How is anyone supposed to make a living when you run into countless people who wear a mask of professionalisim to satiate their own desire for attention?

[EdContradictory]

"Listen Mr. Lawyer-guy, your commercial said that if 'I have a phone, I have a lawyer'! Well, you commie, I have a phone!

It got turned off for not paying the bill... but I have one."
I wonder if he still tries to use it ?
"Hello? Hello?!

Why won't someone call me so I can sue them?"

[Matt Doc Martin]

I got a letter today from a _____ & ________, LLP in NY and I thought:
FInally! I have been contacted by his lawyer!

But it was just someone paying for an eBay auction.

Has ANYONE actually heard from his lawyer yet?

[Blake Petit]

I rather hope not -- talking to imaginary people isn't the sign of a healthy personality.

[TCJohnson]

I rather hope not -- talking to imaginary people isn't the sign of a healthy personality.

Oh my goodness then you have come to the wrong board. No healthy personalities here.

[Sparvid]

I once saved an entire village in Denmark by plugging a hole in a leaky dam with mine. Where's my parade? WHERE'S MY PARADE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://img.search.com/4/4f/300px-Nasa_tickertape_apollo_19700915_b.jpg

[Danny Donovan]

I got a letter today from a _____ & ________, LLP in NY and I thought:
FInally! I have been contacted by his lawyer!

But it was just someone paying for an eBay auction.

Has ANYONE actually heard from his lawyer yet?

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a75/dannydonovan3/040926.jpg

I'm sure once shteve gets off the line he'll have his lawyer call you.

[Joshua Pantalleresco]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a75/dannydonovan3/040926.jpg

I'm sure once shteve gets off the line he'll have his lawyer call you.

Dude, I'm crying. LMFAO.

I'd have spit tea on the screen (fortunately I had the foresight to put my teas elsewhere) Where did you find that?

JP

[Matt Doc Martin]

Dude, I'm crying. LMFAO.

I'd have spit tea on the screen (fortunately I had the foresight to put my teas elsewhere) Where did you find that?

JP


GET OUTTA PAPERGIRL'S ACCOUNT!

[Papergirl]

GET OUTTA PAPERGIRL'S ACCOUNT!
YEAH!


Spitting tea is MY job, dammit!

~Bev

[Danny Donovan]

Dude, I'm crying. LMFAO.

I'd have spit tea on the screen (fortunately I had the foresight to put my teas elsewhere) Where did you find that?

JP

it's from the webcomic http://www.vgcats.com that character is called Dr. Hobo. quite a highlight when he pops in.

Oh Dr. Hobo, always tricking poor Leo into unessecary surgery....

[bert]

She's got girl parts and boy parts? :eek:

hmmm. . .a Transminion?

from the planet Transparency, in Transsiberianorchestraland.

[bert]

Isn't Larry the Lackey? :)

I thought Larry was the Cable Guy

[Corrina]

It was a joke.

Larry is married to Mercedes Lackey.

Well, I thought it was funny, anyway. :)

[Danny Donovan]

Josh, this is another one of my favorite Dr. Hobo bits as well. :) If anyone is interested. ;)


http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a75/dannydonovan3/031124.jpg

[bert]

It was a joke.

Larry is married to Mercedes Lackey.

Well, I thought it was funny, anyway. :)

LOL. . I was purposely ignoring your Mercedes Lackey joke to make a Larry the Cable Guy joke. . .

heh

[Blake Petit]

Wait, Larry the Cable Guy is married to Mercedes Lackey?

[Jack Zodiac]

hmmm. . .a Transminion?

from the planet Transparency, in Transsiberianorchestraland.

A panminion!

It was a joke.

Larry is married to Mercedes Lackey.

Well, I thought it was funny, anyway. :)

You're sense of humor sucks, and you suck by association!

[Jack Zodiac]

Wait, Larry the Cable Guy is married to Mercedes Lackey?

Wait, Larry Dixon's a racist douchebag with bad fashion sense?

[Danny Donovan]

Wait, Larry Dixon's a racist douchebag with bad fashion sense?

And one that pretends to be from the south?

Git R' Done indeed!

:-p

[bert]

Wait, Larry Dixon's a racist douchebag with bad fashion sense?

hey, I *like* the suit. . .


it works for Borat !




.

[Sarah Beach]

Wait, Larry the Cable Guy is married to Mercedes Lackey?

You "mist" the memo?






(No. That was lame. Sorry. But I thought Corrina's was funny!)

[Cam63]

Thanks very much. This is a fun place!

You should see it when someone puts on " The Best of ABBA " and the red cordial comes out.

[shanejayell]

You "mist" the memo?

(No. That was lame. Sorry. But I thought Corrina's was funny!)

Yeah, your joke was too Misty

[Cam63]

Wait, Larry Dixon's a racist douchebag with bad fashion sense?

Well... He's not a racist !

[THEDOC]

Wow, no activity since yesterday. :eek:

[Blake Petit]

Yeah, I know... what's up with the universe?

[MacQuarrie]

I got a letter today from a _____ & ________, LLP in NY and I thought:
FInally! I have been contacted by his lawyer!

But it was just someone paying for an eBay auction.

Has ANYONE actually heard from his lawyer yet?

I got a notice that I had a certified letter that I had to sign for. "OH GOODY!" I thought. I was sure that I was being served. So I rushed to the post office.

Turned out it was just the group tickets I ordered for "Wicked" at the Pantages.

So that would be a big no on hearing from Dick.

... what? I like musicals.

[Blake Petit]

And there is nothing wrong with that.

<--Listening to the Wicked soundtrack right now.

[bert]

And there is nothing wrong with that.

<--Listening to the Wicked soundtrack right now.

me too!

that is a GREAT soundtrack.

"Defying Gravity" is such a fantastic song.

[THEDOC]

I got a notice that I had a certified letter that I had to sign for. "OH GOODY!" I thought. I was sure that I was being served. So I rushed to the post office.

Turned out it was just the group tickets I ordered for "Wicked" at the Pantages.

So that would be a big no on hearing from Dick.

... what? I like musicals.

Saw "Grease" at the Pantages back in the late 70's, great theatre.

[Daneault]

A panminion!


what about monkey minions?:confused: ;)

[Gail Simone]

Tightlip no longer has a forum at Jazma online. Wonder if Rick did that or Jazma.

Gail

[Papergirl]

Turned out it was just the group tickets I ordered for "Wicked" at the Pantages.

If you haven't seen it yet, you'll love it. :D

<--Listening to the Wicked soundtrack right now.

I knew I liked you for a reason!

me too!

that is a GREAT soundtrack.

"Defying Gravity" is such a fantastic song.

That is my favorite! Damn, now *I* have to put the soundtrack on!

Ermmm.... Not that I am complaining, mind you! :p

Tightlip no longer has a forum at Jazma online. Wonder if Rick did that or Jazma.

Gail

I bet he did, if he had no other way of deleting certain posts. I think he's still under this misguided notion that he can erase/rewrite history to suit his needs here.

*goes playing in the Way Back Machine (http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.jazmaonline.com)*

:D

~Bev

[AIPman1]

Tightlip no longer has a forum at Jazma online. Wonder if Rick did that or Jazma.

Gail

normally a moderator can't create or delete whole forums...just the posts within.

[AIPman1]

not that it might not have been taken down at HIS request...

[Papergirl]

normally a moderator can't create or delete whole forums...just the posts within.
No, but they CAN request the forum be deleted.

~Bev

[EDIT: Ian beat me to it. Dammit. :p]

[Jack Zodiac]

So... even if he weren't full of shit, odds are we wouldn't hear anything from him or a lawyer on a Saturday or Sunday; but who thinks Monday's holding any better promise?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Tightlip no longer has a forum at Jazma online. Wonder if Rick did that or Jazma.

Gail

This will surely be blamed on God for some reason. God has it in for Olney now. Thou has taken down thus rightous words.

[wishlish]

I'm speculating that he dissolved the partnership with his wife as a misguided attempt to get out of the substantial debt he created with Tightlip. Thus, he's taken down Tightlip's web presence on MySpace, various web forums, etc. Of course, since TLE was a partnership and not a corporation, that won't help him a bit. Anyone who wants to use the courts to recover money can just sue him and his wife.

I'm also thinking someone from his family, possibly his wife, must have intervened at some point and told him to stay off the internet (which is the smartest move he can make, although of only marginal benefit at this point). We know his wife is at least aware that the partnership she was involved in with TLE is over, because she signed a document in front of a notary that said so. She might have told him to shut up.

I kind of miss him, in the same way that I miss Saddam Hussein.

[Matt Doc Martin]

I'm speculating that he dissolved the partnership with his wife as a misguided attempt to get out of the substantial debt he created with Tightlip. Thus, he's taken down Tightlip's web presence on MySpace, various web forums, etc. Of course, since TLE was a partnership and not a corporation, that won't help him a bit. Anyone who wants to use the courts to recover money can just sue him and his wife.

I'm also thinking someone from his family, possibly his wife, must have intervened at some point and told him to stay off the internet (which is the smartest move he can make, although of only marginal benefit at this point). We know his wife is at least aware that the partnership she was involved in with TLE is over, because she signed a document in front of a notary that said so. She might have told him to shut up.

I kind of miss him, in the same way that I miss Saddam Hussein.

Oh, he is still online. Just keeping a low profile.

Hi, Rick!

[Crowley]

http://comicsradar.com/?p=27
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=96941

[KevinTBrown]

And there is nothing wrong with that.

<--Listening to the Wicked soundtrack right now.

me too!

that is a GREAT soundtrack.

"Defying Gravity" is such a fantastic song.

Nah, "Popular" is better. ;)




"Black, it's the new pink" :p

[Danny Donovan]

I wonder if he's given up?

[Magneto_X]

Danny:

Rick is to stupid to give up.

An intelligent person wouldn't have done half the stuff on the thread or emails Rick has done.

[Danny Donovan]

That's true.

But I suppose I live in hope that in everyone's life they have that blinding flash of epiphany light and try to stop sucking. ;)

I went through it! Eventually those little spots in front of your eyes, do go away after the light fades. ;)

It's just odd that all his websites are down, his blogs have stopped being updated, etc.

Hopefully he's at LEAST not thinking of fighting the wave any further.

[david r]

How does Rick Olney rate on a scale of evildoers in the comics industry?

Is he up there with the Bill Jemas, Mark Allesi's and Jim Shooter's?

Or is he more moderate evildoer like a Bob Harras or Tom DeFalco?

[Blake Petit]

I knew I liked you for a reason!

Aw, shucks ma'am. :blushes, draws circle in the dirt with toe:

[Danny Donovan]

How does Rick Olney rate on a scale of evildoers in the comics industry?

Is he up there with the Bill Jemas, Mark Allesi's and Jim Shooter's?

Or is he more moderate evildoer like a Bob Harras or Tom DeFalco?

Tom Defalco? I've always found Tom to be a decent guy.

Bob Harras wasn't that bad, he made his mistakes, but wasn't to a level we're discussing here. In fact when I was about 15. I tried to pitch a story to Marvel, and Bob sent me a personal letter, plus a bunch of Marvel swag, for a kid that was pretty damn cool.

Alessi just wasn't a comic book guy. As far as I understand (and I maybe mistaken) everyone was EVENTUALLY paid at the end of that mess. It was a case of someone saying "hey, it might be fun to make a comic company"

Jemas ran a card company. He was brought in to save a comic division so completely screwed up he couldn't have done any worse if he nuked it. (they were in chapter 13, the creditors were crawling out of the woodwork)

For all his controversy, he made the trains run on time (unless Quesada was drawing it. :-p No offense) and everyone's check cleared.

Shooter was just a case of a guy who let his ego cash checks he couldn't cover. But again, during his editorial direction at Marvel, creators made money, while there might have been a lot of micro managing, no one ever got hurt in this manner.

Rick is, in the words of River Tam "A sad little king, of a sad little hill, a petty theif with delusions of standing."

[Corrina]

I understand Alessi still owes a considerable number of people considerable money which probably will never be paid.

But I agree, I think Alessi is nothing like Olney, except maybe at the end where he scrambled around robbing Peter to pay Paul. Alessi did actually have a product and he tried his best (though he made mistakes) to make that product work.

I'm not convinced Olney is anything at this point but a person with a lifetime habit of conning people.

[Jack Zodiac]

How does Rick Olney rate on a scale of evildoers in the comics industry?

Is he up there with the Bill Jemas, Mark Allesi's and Jim Shooter's?

Or is he more moderate evildoer like a Bob Harras or Tom DeFalco?

Like Danny said, when Jemas was in charge, at least the place wasn't burnt to the ground. Allesi owned up eventually, and Shooter, while full of himself, was competent enough to at least run a company. And I don't even think Harras or Tom are close to moderately evil. I'd dare say, they aren't even mildly evil.

Olney's just a douche. He's got the Midas touch in reverse, everything he touches turns to shit.

[david r]

Bob Harras wasn't that bad, he made his mistakes, but wasn't to a level we're discussing here.

I would disagree. I think firing Chris Claremont off the X-Men after 17 wildly succesful years, allowing the pre-Image boys to sculpt Marvel in their "fashion" and alienating many of their talent (Byrne, Roy Thomas, Waid, etc.) rates him as another bad editor-in-chief.

Sure he did some positive things, like steering the company through the perilous waters of bankruptcy. But I think it was Mark Waid who said that Bob Harras once said to him "We see writer-driven comics as an experiment that's failed." I don't know if I want a man like that running Marvel Comics.

Alessi just wasn't a comic book guy. As far as I understand (and I maybe mistaken) everyone was EVENTUALLY paid at the end of that mess. It was a case of someone saying "hey, it might be fun to make a comic company"

That's not what I've read about Mark Alessi and CrossGen. In interviews, sure, Mark comes across as someone honorable. But the behind-the-scenes stories that now surface about Mr. Alessi and his Florida based company paint a VERY different picture.

Jemas ran a card company. He was brought in to save a comic division so completely screwed up he couldn't have done any worse if he nuked it. (they were in chapter 13, the creditors were crawling out of the woodwork)

Bill Jemas had his positives, but many negatives. I've read he could be creative, but also abrasive and suffered in "people" skills. His orchestrating the firings of Bob Harras, Chris Claremont and others from top editorial positions in 2000 was rather bruising for them, I'm sure. His inane firing of Mark Waid from Fantastic Four seems almost laughable now. His Epic and Tsunami lines were dismal failures. His treatment of certain creators like Salvador Larroca, Peter David and Claremont was abysmal. And so on.

Shooter was just a case of a guy who let his ego cash checks he couldn't cover. But again, during his editorial direction at Marvel, creators made money, while there might have been a lot of micro managing, no one ever got hurt in this manner.

I would say that Gene Day was VERY hurt by Jim Shooter's treatment of him. The Master of Kung Fu artist was driven to such lengths by the relentless nitpicking from Jim Shooter that his health began to deteriorate. He suddenly died of a heart attack. Whether fingers could point to Shooter for what happened, we'll never know completely. But his treatment of Day, Gene Colan, Marv Wolfman, Roy Thomas and others at Marvel in the late 70s, 1980s was pretty bad.

However, I have no argument that Marvel flourished greatly in Shooter's E-I-C period. I think he did make the "trains run on time". Another abrasive man, from all reports, but he knew how to make a lot of fantastic comic runs that people remember to this day.

[Jack Zodiac]

I understand Alessi still owes a considerable number of people considerable money which probably will never be paid.

Oh, I thought he finally made due. Either way, he's done a whole lot fuckin' more than Olney has, and may eventually cover the last bit of talent that got the shaft. All we can hope for the folks that screwed by Dickface is that they at least get the satisfaction of watching him completely ruin himself, if not get their money back.

[Magneto_X]

Jack:

Didn't Alessi look after himself *first* (i.e. setting up another front to put all of his properties into to seperate them from CrossGen etc) before paying any of the creators back--and didn't they have to sue him or something for that to happen?

Been ages since I've read about Alessi so I may be remembering stuff wrong.

[Cam63]

Gail has both minions and wominions.

How about hench wenches ?

[Jack Zodiac]

Jack:

Didn't Alessi look after himself *first* (i.e. setting up another front to put all of his properties into to seperate them from CrossGen etc) before paying any of the creators back--and didn't they have to sue him or something for that to happen?

Been ages since I've read about Alessi so I may be remembering stuff wrong.

He did, and until Corrina brought it up just now, I thought he'd paid back all the creators he was jerking around, but I guess I hear wrong. What he did was dick, no doubt, but he had the ability to make it up to the people he screwed (and he did with most of them, financially at least). Rick can't do that, we all know it.

[Papergirl]

How about hench wenches ?
That would be me.

~Bev

[Jack Zodiac]

I just talked to Troy Hickman and he, too, was almost fooled by Dickface. He was one of the creators planning on coming to one of the cancelled cons, which means he had to free up time he could've spent writing or doing signings or other cons. At least he didn't get screwed out of finished work, though!

[Sarah Beach]

Regarding Alessi & CrossGen: I think Chuck Dixon has said that he's still out money due, as are a number of artists (at least).

Regarding Olney: What I find particularly vile about him is that he preyed on up-and-coming talent, real talent, at a vulnerable point in their careers. And he did it knowingly. He knew their inexperience and lack of resources would keep them from making waves about his treatment. I guess he deluded himself into thinking he could continue on up the professional ladder treating people that way.

But it all caught up with him.

[wishlish]

How does Rick Olney rate on a scale of evildoers in the comics industry?

Is he up there with the Bill Jemas, Mark Allesi's and Jim Shooter's?

Or is he more moderate evildoer like a Bob Harras or Tom DeFalco?

I used to work for Bill Jemas at 360ep. He's nothing like he was at Marvel, actually. I think he had a change of heart after that experience. With me, he was quite a nice guy, very devoted to his family. Nothing like Olney.

[THEDOC]

I would say that Gene Day was VERY hurt by Jim Shooter's treatment of him. The Master of Kung Fu artist was driven to such lengths by the relentless nitpicking from Jim Shooter that his health began to deteriorate. He suddenly died of a heart attack. Whether fingers could point to Shooter for what happened, we'll never know completely. But his treatment of Day, Gene Colan, Marv Wolfman, Roy Thomas and others at Marvel in the late 70s, 1980s was pretty bad.

However, I have no argument that Marvel flourished greatly in Shooter's E-I-C period. I think he did make the "trains run on time". Another abrasive man, from all reports, but he knew how to make a lot of fantastic comic runs that people remember to this day.

Well I agree Shooter's handling of Day, Coland and Don Newton were pretty big errors on his part.

[wishlish]

I understand Alessi still owes a considerable number of people considerable money which probably will never be paid.


Well, the bankruptcy's over, so the debts are gone. But since the assets didn't sell for as much as the debts, there's no money left. He doesn't owe it anymore.

[THEDOC]

How does Rick Olney rate on a scale of evildoers in the comics industry?

Is he up there with the Bill Jemas, Mark Allesi's and Jim Shooter's?

Or is he more moderate evildoer like a Bob Harras or Tom DeFalco?

Worst guy in my opinion and that is from personal experience, was Andrew Rev and how he ran Northstar and Comico into the ground and had some payroll issues with some fine artists.

[wishlish]

Well I agree Shooter's handling of Day, Coland and Don Newton were pretty big errors on his part.
Keep in mind that the man who's pinned Gene Day's death on Shooter was Dave Sim. Shooter has disputed some of Sim's claims, and has brought up the point that Gene Day was quite obese. I'm not saying either man is right; I'm just pointing out that there are two sides on that story.

Colan was let go because Shooter didn't like his art. I'm betting that there are artists who used to get work at Marvel but don't because Quesada doesn't like their work. I think Shooter made a wrong choice; with the right story, Colan's art is killer (and Colan's one of the true gents in comics; I met him last year, and he thanked ME for asking him to sign my copy of the Submariner Masterwork. I was in awe of the man).

I wouldn't lump any editor-in-chief at Marvel in the same boat as Olney. Hell, I wouldn't lump Perelman, the former owner who drove the company into bankruptcy, in with Olney. Alessi's in the same end of the universe with Olney, because when the company started to tank, a lot of lies came out of the Florida compound. But Alessi at least had a business plan, and people got paid as long as the company had money.

Olney's NEVER PAID ANYONE. He's in his own little, lonely circle of comic book hell.

[Danny Donovan]

I would disagree. I think firing Chris Claremont off the X-Men after 17 wildly succesful years, allowing the pre-Image boys to sculpt Marvel in their "fashion" and alienating many of their talent (Byrne, Roy Thomas, Waid, etc.) rates him as another bad editor-in-chief.

You could say the same about pretty much anyone in charge at any point in comics. This is a small oft times "cliqueish" industry. There are times when power plays end up being more important than product.

I mean what about the current Marvel thing where Mark Waid was replaced on FF without telling him? What about Shooter's era where a lot of people were "phased out" because they didn't fall into the paradigmn he was going for?

The fact is, this industry hasbeen eating itself alive for decades. And you have people for whom "business sense" is pretty much nothing more than a free talk at a Marriot on "how to rectify the para-dig-'em" (old cel phone commercial)

A lot of it is short term fixes while ignoring the long term profit. instead of balancing a publishing plan that mixes both gearing to current trends, while at the same time intiating a long term inititive to grab readers in between changing trends.


Sure he did some positive things, like steering the company through the perilous waters of bankruptcy. But I think it was Mark Waid who said that Bob Harras once said to him "We see writer-driven comics as an experiment that's failed." I don't know if I want a man like that running Marvel Comics.

Well.... I'd say something cynical at this point, but most publishers these days feel the same way. Honestly there should be NO "driven" experiments, writer, artist, etc. It's a collaborative medium. You can have the best story in the world, but if the art sucks you're not going to move a lot of product.

Conversly, you can have brilliant art, and no story, and move TONS of product, albiet not for a long period of time. This goes back to the "short term fix vs. long term profit" discussion.

That's not what I've read about Mark Alessi and CrossGen. In interviews, sure, Mark comes across as someone honorable. But the behind-the-scenes stories that now surface about Mr. Alessi and his Florida based company paint a VERY different picture.

He started with a lot of promise, and left with a lot of bad feelings and a lot of disgrace. Again, he wasn't a comic person. He didn't know how screwed up this market was, and to his credit he did bring in a lot of inititives which at least ATTEMPTED to move us from direct market hell, and to something closer to the hayday of comics.

But again, he fell victim to writing checks he couldn't cash. And unfortionately sometimes those were OTHER PEOPLE'S checks but to his credit he DID make an attempt to right the matter.


Bill Jemas had his positives, but many negatives. I've read he could be creative, but also abrasive and suffered in "people" skills. His orchestrating the firings of Bob Harras, Chris Claremont and others from top editorial positions in 2000 was rather bruising for them, I'm sure. His inane firing of Mark Waid from Fantastic Four seems almost laughable now. His Epic and Tsunami lines were dismal failures. His treatment of certain creators like Salvador Larroca, Peter David and Claremont was abysmal. And so on.

Now this is another case of politics. Harras was fired as an "example." as were all the subsequent lay offs of the people that worked for him in the previous administration. Bringing in guys like Axel Alonso, and Stuart Moore was his way of saying "I'm clearing out what didn't work and bringing in fresh ideas." It's a sucky thing to do, but it's business.

Every large company does this when they change heads. Personally removing Claremont from the X-MEN titles was something I agreed with him on. claremont was not telling the stories as he used to, and it was near impossible for people who were getting wind of the property via the movies and cartoon shows at the time to get into the books.

He gave the fans "X-Treme X-MEN" for the fanservice people. But tried to save the main books for the non fans. Personally I think Morrison did a FANTASTIC job, always been a fan of his, always will I think it's a damn shame they're retconning any and all "Sci-fi" elements he was putting forwart in the book.

The Peter David thing, was another thing that was a shame but at the same time you can't help. The book wasn't selling well, it was getting tons of critical acclaim but was not moving enough quantity, for a company coming out of bankruptcy you have to be careful with what losses you take.

Marvel at the time decided to take losses on projects that would gain them mass market attention such as the gay Rawhide Kid. was it smart? No, but hell, it was something.

Epic was a line doomed for failure because it was approached the wrong way. It was pretty much nothing all that dissimilar from those "pay $14.95 to have your very own Captain Universe comic ABOUT YOU!" things that ran in the mid 90s. They wanted new ideas they could own and shop around hollywood but not put much money in. So they played on the thing about all fans wanting to be in the buisness, by giving them an oppertunity although working for FAR LESS than the minimum freelancer payment.

Tsunami was a good idea that was poorly marketed. It should have NEVER been marketed to the direct market. It never belonged there. It should have been a mass market concept.


I would say that Gene Day was VERY hurt by Jim Shooter's treatment of him. The Master of Kung Fu artist was driven to such lengths by the relentless nitpicking from Jim Shooter that his health began to deteriorate. He suddenly died of a heart attack. Whether fingers could point to Shooter for what happened, we'll never know completely. But his treatment of Day, Gene Colan, Marv Wolfman, Roy Thomas and others at Marvel in the late 70s, 1980s was pretty bad.

That is a sad story but, and in no defense of they guy, I can name at least 5 editors that are "hard asses" (but I won't because, as I said POLITICS! you name names, you close doors.)

The bottom line is that any one of the people you mentioned could have left at any time for DC. In fact Wolfman did and his DC work became more well known than his Marvel work. although those that stayed, did so because they were getting paid well. Sometimes you have to put up with a lot of shit if you want to reap the rewards. Otherwise you can always find other oppertinities.

However, I have no argument that Marvel flourished greatly in Shooter's E-I-C period. I think he did make the "trains run on time". Another abrasive man, from all reports, but he knew how to make a lot of fantastic comic runs that people remember to this day.

Exactly. He may have been an ass to a lot of people, but he knew how to run a business which is more than you could say for SOME people in this industry. And there are a lot of people who have mouths to feed who don't give a damn whether your an angel or a devil as long as you can give them a sense of security.

Personally I don't care if I'm working for an asshole or not. As long as the checks clear, the time I spend dealing with the unpleasant person is barely negligible. But if you're dealing with an abusive personality AND not recieving any reward for a crappy job, you have a major problem which is why you will find most people here making a strong case for mob rule.

[wishlish]

I would disagree. I think firing Chris Claremont off the X-Men after 17 wildly succesful years, allowing the pre-Image boys to sculpt Marvel in their "fashion" and alienating many of their talent (Byrne, Roy Thomas, Waid, etc.) rates him as another bad editor-in-chief.


I'd really like to agree, except for one thing- firing Claremont was a good business AND artistic decision. Ever read the work Claremont churned out post-firing, both on Sovereign Seven and then when he got back with Marvel? There's not many good comics there. I started reading X-Men about two years before his firing, and my friends and I would laugh at all the dangling plotlines and horrible dialogue.

There are very, very few writers who can write one franchise for 17 years. Even Will Eisner ran out of stories to tell on the Spirit at the end of his run. Marv Wolfman admitted he was out of Titans tales. Dave Sim did 300 issues of Cerebus, but by the end, he was NUTS. When PAD was pushed off Hulk, he ended with a killer last issue, but when he was brought back a few years later, he just didn't feel that same connection with the character.

[Danny Donovan]

I used to work for Bill Jemas at 360ep. He's nothing like he was at Marvel, actually. I think he had a change of heart after that experience. With me, he was quite a nice guy, very devoted to his family. Nothing like Olney.

I had a lot of dealings with him in my 15 seconds of "non-fame" at Marvel. I liked him. His "online persona" was nothing more than a character, much in the same way a (wait for it ECWSuperfan) a professional wrestler, who for all intents and purposes is a decent person will be a total dick to everyone so there is conflict for the story they're trying to tell.

He came into this business and looked at it from "real business" standpoint. The way we do things, and the way we behave are completely different than any other business model. Especially an entertainment model. So this was someone who came in from spending time sailing on the ocean and wanted to have fun playing with radio control boats in a swimming pool.

For what it's worth, it did turn the company around. But I have nothing but nice things to say in regards to my experiances with him as an "up and comer" looking to hold onto my small success for as long as I could.

Mark Powers is another one that gets a lot of hell from people but his work with me on that inventory story was a really pleasant working experiance.

[wishlish]

Now this is another case of politics. Harras was fired as an "example." as were all the subsequent lay offs of the people that worked for him in the previous administration. Bringing in guys like Axel Alonso, and Stuart Moore was his way of saying "I'm clearing out what didn't work and bringing in fresh ideas." It's a sucky thing to do, but it's business.


Harras wasn't fired as an example; he was fired because Jemas thought Quesada could do better comics than Harras. And not everyone was fired from the Harras administration; Ralph Macchio and Tom Brevoort are still around, and run two key elements of Marvel publishing (Ultimate and Marvel Heroes).

Harras put out a lot of bad comics, especially in the X-Men line after the first movie came out. Marvel finally had a movie in theatres- a good one!- and had no products from Publishing to capitalize on the movie's success. When the Spider-Man movie came out, they had a few hardbacks of Ultimate Spidey and JMS's Spidey to sell to bookstores. Heck, they're putting out two Omnibus books this year with the FF movie (FF Omnibus 2 and a Silver Surfer book collecting his 60's series run)!

[Dark Galaxy]

Rick is, in the words of River Tam "A sad little king, of a sad little hill, a petty theif with delusions of standing."

Oooh. Quoting River Tam, a man after my own heart. :p

'Doh, I get your avatar now too. I can't believe after reading this thread for days and days I just got that. I guess I was focused more on all the rage, and less on the cunning hat.

[Danny Donovan]

Harras wasn't fired as an example; he was fired because Jemas thought Quesada could do better comics than Harras. And not everyone was fired from the Harras administration; Ralph Macchio and Tom Brevoort are still around, and run two key elements of Marvel publishing (Ultimate and Marvel Heroes).

Harras put out a lot of bad comics, especially in the X-Men line after the first movie came out. Marvel finally had a movie in theatres- a good one!- and had no products from Publishing to capitalize on the movie's success. When the Spider-Man movie came out, they had a few hardbacks of Ultimate Spidey and JMS's Spidey to sell to bookstores. Heck, they're putting out two Omnibus books this year with the FF movie (FF Omnibus 2 and a Silver Surfer book collecting his 60's series run)!

He (Harris) dropped the ball a lot. Blade was the first "good movie bad comic fumble" the Blade mini series that was released in conjunction with the sleeper Wesley Snipes hit was nearly unreadable. the concept didn't make any sense (dealt with aliens for some reason) and the art, was well, not the best. They poached someone from CrossGen, who was doing some fantastic work but what ended up in this book was nothing like his past work.

There was a a bit of "business" in a recent issue of Cable/Deadpool about Brevoort having tenure so they don't mess with him. ;)

I'm not denying he didn't mess up at Marvel, I'm just saying it's no where near the level Rick did.


Oooh. Quoting River Tam, a man after my own heart. :p

'Doh, I get your avatar now too. I can't believe after reading this thread for days and days I just got that. I guess I was focused more on all the rage, and less on the cunning hat.

Thank you! I wanted to use "How's it' sit? Pretty Cunning right?" instead of "quite cunning" but there wasn't a lot of room. ;)

One of my favorite purchases ever.

I love River/Summer. She's just so damn cute it's nuts. I met her at Dragon*Con last year it was at the end of the show just before I was leaving for my flight home so I only had a chance to say hi, shake her hand and tell her that I appreciated her work on the series.

She just has such an adorable smile. :-p

[kingdom2000]

Regarding Alessi & CrossGen: I think Chuck Dixon has said that he's still out money due, as are a number of artists (at least).

Regarding Olney: What I find particularly vile about him is that he preyed on up-and-coming talent, real talent, at a vulnerable point in their careers. And he did it knowingly. He knew their inexperience and lack of resources would keep them from making waves about his treatment. I guess he deluded himself into thinking he could continue on up the professional ladder treating people that way.

But it all caught up with him.

Has it really? I have seen little talk of actual action against him here, just lots of words.


As for Crossgen, the ideas of the company and its product line was great, its how the company got the talent it got. Its the implentation that didn't work out and a large part of the reason was the bad press and general disinterest from comic fans. The company grew to large to fast and at a time when comics where in the losest point of the slump so people where watching their dollars across the board. I knew ton of people that where curious about Crossgen but simply didn't have the money to sample them. If the company had last long enough, Alessi would probably be called a genius but it never really recovered from the stumble out of the gate.

As for Bill Jemas, it could be argued that thanks to him and Quesada, Marvel still stands as a whole and thriving entity rather then a now gone company with its creations sold to the various highest bidders. He was loud and pushed back at comics fans, like Alessi, but Jemas had the history of Marvel to support him, where Alessi didn't. The result was attention that drove sales (and pissed people off) rather then attentions that just angered people. Personally, I thought alot of his points where dead one and needed to said, then again I think the average comic fan is overly sensitive and could use the occasional thumping.

[Gail Simone]

I understand Alessi still owes a considerable number of people considerable money which probably will never be paid.

But I agree, I think Alessi is nothing like Olney, except maybe at the end where he scrambled around robbing Peter to pay Paul. Alessi did actually have a product and he tried his best (though he made mistakes) to make that product work.

I'm not convinced Olney is anything at this point but a person with a lifetime habit of conning people.


Alessi DID pay people at some point, though. So there's that difference.

But yeah, very bad faith dealings at the end of CrossGen, seemingly.

Gail

[Gail Simone]

I just talked to Troy Hickman and he, too, was almost fooled by Dickface. He was one of the creators planning on coming to one of the cancelled cons, which means he had to free up time he could've spent writing or doing signings or other cons. At least he didn't get screwed out of finished work, though!

He pulled the same thing with Sean McKeever.

Gail

[Cam63]

Stop being a bully on the bully board, you bully !

Cam Bully 63.

PS. Bully !

[AaronJ]

Alessi DID pay people at some point, though. So there's that difference.

But yeah, very bad faith dealings at the end of CrossGen, seemingly.

Gail

The difference to me, at least, seems to be that Olney never had any intention whatsover of paying anyone. There's simply no way someone could go about "business" in that fashion, and just be a well-meaning incompent.

It's clear that he is nothing more than a con-man.

[Gail Simone]

"I had a lot of dealings with him in my 15 seconds of "non-fame" at Marvel. I liked him. His "online persona" was nothing more than a character, much in the same way a (wait for it ECWSuperfan) a professional wrestler, who for all intents and purposes is a decent person will be a total dick to everyone so there is conflict for the story they're trying to tell. "

That's not true at all, Danny. Not even in the ballpark. I personally got along pretty well with Bill, but to say it was all just a wacky character is completely and utterly incorrect and virtually anyone who was there at the time would agree.

As I say, I liked Bill, we got along well, but it was not all pretend, that stuff. At one point, nearly everyone I knew at Marvel wanted out because of him. Some of the biggest Marvel boosters NOW were BEGGING to come to DC at the time. So, kudos to Joey Q for turning that ship around.


Gail

[Gail Simone]

I only know Bob Harras as a writer. I think he's damn good in that capacity--I really enjoyed Breach, dangit.

Gail

[Danny Donovan]

That's not true at all, Danny. Not even in the ballpark. I personally got along pretty well with Bill, but to say it was all just a wacky character is completely and utterly incorrect and virtually anyone who was there at the time would agree.

As I say, I liked Bill, we got along well, but it was not all pretend, that stuff. At one point, nearly everyone I knew at Marvel wanted out because of him. Some of the biggest Marvel boosters NOW were BEGGING to come to DC at the time. So, kudos to Joey Q for turning that ship around.


Gail

Well I guess I benifited from not being around long enough to see that other part. I don't argue that there was a major problem trying to get what I guess is dubbed "nu-marvel" in line as an actual publishing company due in large part I would guess from what you have said (and I've heard similar things from others) to Bill's personality.

The only place I drew an exception was lumping him with Rick. As I've said there's a difference between being an asshole that gets things done (to a point) like Jemas and Alessi and being one that does nothing and claims to be some level of greatness.

The ship might be turning but just from a reader perspective there does need to be a slight course change, before you can safely find yourself to clear waters. I don't doubt they can do it. They just need to think long term more often.

One could say they are in some manner with this Civil War thing but... it's hard to tell with these 5th week event things. One missetep leads to months of retcon. >_< (I think they're calling it "The Hawkman Paradigm" now. lol)

And Harris was a good writer. Did some pretty good Avengers stories back in the day.

[Crowley]

You could say the same about pretty much anyone in charge at any point in comics. This is a small oft times "cliqueish" industry. There are times when power plays end up being more important than product.

I mean what about the current Marvel thing where Mark Waid was replaced on FF without telling him? What about Shooter's era where a lot of people were "phased out" because they didn't fall into the paradigmn he was going for?

The fact is, this industry hasbeen eating itself alive for decades. And you have people for whom "business sense" is pretty much nothing more than a free talk at a Marriot on "how to rectify the para-dig-'em" (old cel phone commercial)

you realize that every single industry is like comics... but just on a macro level?

Advertising, Art Galleries, Marketing, Newspapers, Video Games...
you have to have "ins" and you have to be willing to mingle at the bar.
Hell... I've made several deals at bars by wandering over and striking up conversations... or networking and asking people that I know to introduce me to "person A" that I want to meet.

That's the game... in EVERY business.

[wishlish]

Has it really? I have seen little talk of actual action against him here, just lots of words.


As for Crossgen, the ideas of the company and its product line was great, its how the company got the talent it got. Its the implentation that didn't work out and a large part of the reason was the bad press and general disinterest from comic fans. The company grew to large to fast and at a time when comics where in the losest point of the slump so people where watching their dollars across the board. I knew ton of people that where curious about Crossgen but simply didn't have the money to sample them. If the company had last long enough, Alessi would probably be called a genius but it never really recovered from the stumble out of the gate.

As for Bill Jemas, it could be argued that thanks to him and Quesada, Marvel still stands as a whole and thriving entity rather then a now gone company with its creations sold to the various highest bidders. He was loud and pushed back at comics fans, like Alessi, but Jemas had the history of Marvel to support him, where Alessi didn't. The result was attention that drove sales (and pissed people off) rather then attentions that just angered people. Personally, I thought alot of his points where dead one and needed to said, then again I think the average comic fan is overly sensitive and could use the occasional thumping.

Kingdom2000- Olney's been sued at least twice. Tightlip Entertainment has been dissolved. His actions have been reported across comics boards everywhere. He will have a much harder time doing this to someone else. I'd say actions have been done to him. It's just that those suing him are a bit hesitant about talking about it now. There's action backing up the talk.

The biggest problem with Crossgen was hiring so much talent as in-house employees rather than freelance talent. You just can't run a comics company that way anymore. It hasn't been done successfully since the 60s, and with the advent of global digital networks, it's a foolish idea. Sure, you lock talent up, but the cost is too high, and if your ideas aren't a hit, you're not flexible enough to try something else. Linking all the books to one shared universe with little payoff also wasn't a bright idea; it made it too hard for a new reader to jump on.

[wishlish]

"I had a lot of dealings with him in my 15 seconds of "non-fame" at Marvel. I liked him. His "online persona" was nothing more than a character, much in the same way a (wait for it ECWSuperfan) a professional wrestler, who for all intents and purposes is a decent person will be a total dick to everyone so there is conflict for the story they're trying to tell. "

That's not true at all, Danny. Not even in the ballpark. I personally got along pretty well with Bill, but to say it was all just a wacky character is completely and utterly incorrect and virtually anyone who was there at the time would agree.

As I say, I liked Bill, we got along well, but it was not all pretend, that stuff. At one point, nearly everyone I knew at Marvel wanted out because of him. Some of the biggest Marvel boosters NOW were BEGGING to come to DC at the time. So, kudos to Joey Q for turning that ship around.


Gail

I met Bill after he left Marvel, and while he never came out and said, "My actions at the end were wrong", you could tell that he had learned that he couldn't conduct himself that way again. I think he's going to make 360ep into a successful operation, even if he doesn't publish comics again.

There's no doubt Dan Buckley righted the ship post-Jemas. He doesn't get the credit he deserves.

[Danny Donovan]

you realize that every single industry is like comics... but just on a macro level?

Advertising, Art Galleries, Marketing, Newspapers, Video Games...
you have to have "ins" and you have to be willing to mingle at the bar.
Hell... I've made several deals at bars by wandering over and striking up conversations... or networking and asking people that I know to introduce me to "person A" that I want to meet.

That's the game... in EVERY business.

I think you miss my point above, I might have used a poor analogy, I apologise, I've been up for over 24hrs and I don't make enough sense WITH sleep.

The point is it's a niche market. One going smaller every day. I wasn't complaining about the politics (at least not meaning to) I was merely explaining to the other poster who was decrying the dismissal of certain "fan favorite" individuals, and explaining that's just business.

But we don't have a lot of "business minded" people in charge, There are some that do a damn fine job, but for the most part, you have fans that become pros, and eventually don the suit and lead a company even if they don't really have any training to do so. Or you have people that try to make their way INTO the industry by donning a suit and starting and leading a company with the aforementioned lack of business plan/skill.

I apologise if my message didn't translate, or if this one does an even worse job at clearing the muddied waters of my mind..

[Danny Donovan]

Oh, I found out the whole story for the "ric olie" thing.

"Yeah, it was pretty unbelieveable for me at first. And it happened kind of funny like, because I had gotten a request to send some comics via my connection then to ORCA (Organized Readers of Comics Associated) from SkyWalker Ranch to a kid's cancer benefit. So after sending out like 3000, I got a thank you letter signed by George that also instructed me to go see the film.

At that time, a friend of mine was also dealing with brain cancer and he was a huge Star Wars and sports figure geek and collector. He really wanted to go to see the film, and his wife and oldest daughter were both nurses ... so the four of us went. Now, I never figured on anything other than maybe a credit in the end film credits. And that would've been cool enough ... but those credits were the smallest and fastest rolling I'd ever seen. So I dismissed the whole matter. My friend, Steve...he died a few weeks later. But we enjoyed that film together and I'm glad to have seen it with him.

Now a bunch of weeks pass... and I'm in Toys R Us looking for a birthday present for my oldest grandson. As I'm like most comic book readers, I walk down through the action figure aisle ... and I'm looking at all the Episode One figures on display. Then I spot it! Looking up I see the starship captain figure that wasn't identified by name in the film. The name "Ric Olie" is just too much a coincidence and then it all comes together. It was George's way of thanking me. Like "Ric Olie" giving young Anakin Skywalker his first flying lesson, I had been giving kids (and kids with cancer via Lucas' charity event) their first comic books. That's what ORCA did. We pumped comics into schools, hospitals, and we created some of the first library outreach efforts to put comics and sequentially driven books on library shelves as early as 1994. Our free comics giving away efforts actually pre-date Diamond's FCBD efforts. And truth further be told, my contacts with Diamond back then heavily touted our efforts with suggestions for getting them to work with us in placing comics even on the slightly damaged, yet readable level, places where ORCA had tread. Then Joe Field and Diamond created FCBD. Were those things related? I don't know. Most of us that worked within ORCA at the time thought so, and it was a good thing.

Anyway, I bought all those "Ric Olie" figures that day. And I later found out from a toy collector/dealer that of the two most rare figures of that film were the "Rick Olie" one and a Queen Amadala figure in some different, more elaborate costume. 'Course, my love of Star Wars and all things George Lucas has never waned.

Thanks for letting me share this here, Grant. It is a pleasure being here on your message board."

So he basically got a thank you form letter for a donation to a thing, and ran into a character with a similar name and inferred it had a connection. It was never expressly told to him that it was based on him.

Also, WHERE IS HE GETTING THAT INFO ON THE CHARACTER? "giving Anakin his first flying lesson?" He was a flyer before he left tatooine, in the pod races, he was instructed to hide in a ship until the bad guys had left in the 3rd act of "the first" movie, and then flew the ship on his own to save the day.

He was never "given lessons" before flying.

Although who knows all that extended universe stuff confuses me.

[Crowley]

I think you miss my point above, I might have used a poor analogy, I apologise, I've been up for over 24hrs and I don't make enough sense WITH sleep.

The point is it's a niche market. One going smaller every day. I wasn't complaining about the politics (at least not meaning to) I was merely explaining to the other poster who was decrying the dismissal of certain "fan favorite" individuals, and explaining that's just business.

But we don't have a lot of "business minded" people in charge, There are some that do a damn fine job, but for the most part, you have fans that become pros, and eventually don the suit and lead a company even if they don't really have any training to do so. Or you have people that try to make their way INTO the industry by donning a suit and starting and leading a company with the aforementioned lack of business plan/skill.

I apologise if my message didn't translate, or if this one does an even worse job at clearing the muddied waters of my mind..

again...
That shit happens in every business. Ever see Office Space?
I've worked in offices where the guys who may be GREAT sales people or copy editors get promoted to management. Everyone knows that excelling at a skill does not necessarily make for good managers or even equate to people skills.
And you do know that half of all businesses fall within the first year right?
Is that really any greater in Comics compared to say the restaurant industry? Not really.

Also... I would say "we" (the comics industry) have a SHITLOAD of business people involved. On both the indie scale (DDP the company I work for, Image, Dark Horse, Boom) and DEFINITELY at the Big Two.

And comics aren't going smaller when you have Spider-man, Batman and Fantastic Four as top movies and you have Variety reporting about Iron Man and the New York Times reporting about Dark Horse and Roger Crumb's wife... or the Wall Street Journal taking about Pullboxonline.com (also part of DDP)

Now what is changing?

Print Publishing in general:
http://mccd.udc.es/orihuela/epic/

All the newspapers and magazines are wringing their hands over the internet coming to kill them. Meanwhile, Walgreens' shelves and Walden Books' spinner racks are becoming things of the past because the cost of that shelf space versus the amount of profit brought in. Comic books are R&D for other media and to get out licensing rights for merchandise... See the Cowboys & Aliens scandal. But the trade market is expanding to Hot Topics, Walmarts and Borders.

The direct market will need to branch out to survive... in Chicago, Chicago Comics is a pretty great example. I walk into that store and along with Superhero chotka you find books on art, art supplies, vintage pinups books, graphic design books, loads of biographies, manga, European comics, a full room of independent books, alternative lifestyle magazines, porn, photography books, sci-fi paraphernalia, Art magazines like Illustrator and Juxtapoz, etc.

[the4thpip]

Jack:

Didn't Alessi look after himself *first* (i.e. setting up another front to put all of his properties into to seperate them from CrossGen etc) before paying any of the creators back--and didn't they have to sue him or something for that to happen?

Been ages since I've read about Alessi so I may be remembering stuff wrong.

See, I had created a thread to discuss other company scandals (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=158536&highlight=babylon) to try and not derail this one too much, but that didn't take.

And no, most of the creators Alessi owed money to for the past few months working at CG never got paid. What money came out of bankruptcy went to paying printers, landlords, tax collectors etc. first. As far as I know, there wasn't a cent left for the creators. Many of them lost thousands.

[Danny Donovan]

well said Crowley, I humbly retract my ill thought out sleep deprived rant, and concede to your point

[Gail Simone]

I met Bill after he left Marvel, and while he never came out and said, "My actions at the end were wrong", you could tell that he had learned that he couldn't conduct himself that way again. I think he's going to make 360ep into a successful operation, even if he doesn't publish comics again.

There's no doubt Dan Buckley righted the ship post-Jemas. He doesn't get the credit he deserves.

I hope so, Wishlish. I liked Bill a lot and I felt he did some remarkable things, and he deserves a lot of credit for helping pull the industry up from a near-fatal slump. So I'm glad to hear that 360ep and Bill are doing well.

Gail

[Spackling Compound]

A Ric Olie has appeared after a long hiatus on a message board.
Coincidence? Trick? Joke?

http://www.toymania.com/toybuzz/messages/20715.shtml

[JTPencils]

A Ric Olie has appeared after a long hiatus on a message board.
Coincidence? Trick? Joke?

http://www.toymania.com/toybuzz/messages/20715.shtml

Just seems a little too coherent, for Rick at least. I'd have to say it was a joke.

[neko onna]

Oh, I found out the whole story for the "ric olie" thing.

"Yeah, it was pretty unbelieveable for me at first. And it happened kind of funny like, because I had gotten a request to send some comics via my connection then to ORCA (Organized Readers of Comics Associated) from SkyWalker Ranch to a kid's cancer benefit. So after sending out like 3000, I got a thank you letter signed by George that also instructed me to go see the film.

Here is the thing with this...his own timeline screws with his story..he got a request for comics for a Childrens Cancer benifit at Skywalker Ranch(if it happend it would have been a promotional event for Episode I) and was asked to go see the movie..ok..now...when exactly does he think they name the characters? After the movie is completed and in the theaters...does he think they just make up the names at the end and some guy is typeing out the names super fast.



Anyway, I bought all those "Ric Olie" figures that day. And I later found out from a toy collector/dealer that of the two most rare figures of that film were the "Rick Olie" one and a Queen Amadala figure in some different, more elaborate costume. 'Course, my love of Star Wars and all things George Lucas has never waned.

Ric Olie was not a rare character..at ALL...take it from someone who collected at the time and also worked in a retail store that sold the figures. I used to work the weekly shipment and actually unpacked the product from the manufaturer. Maul and Amidala, were some of the rarest. Olie, like Captain Panaka and the Royal guard troops, were fillers...figures to fill the box around the rare ones.


So he basically got a thank you form letter for a donation to a thing, and ran into a character with a similar name and inferred it had a connection. It was never expressly told to him that it was based on him.
right



Also, WHERE IS HE GETTING THAT INFO ON THE CHARACTER? "giving Anakin his first flying lesson?" He was a flyer before he left tatooine, in the pod races, he was instructed to hide in a ship until the bad guys had left in the 3rd act of "the first" movie, and then flew the ship on his own to save the day.

He was never "given lessons" before flying.

Although who knows all that extended universe stuff confuses me.

No he never gave him flying lessons...this is the extent of the extended universe on Ric Olie from starwars.com

Olié started flying when he was a kid, earning a reputation as "Reckless Ric" for his hot-rodding flights through the skies of Naboo. He eventually tempered his boundless love of flight with the discipline needed to command a starfighter squadron. Like many pilots, Olié has a superstitious streak; while he hasn't forged a real friendship with his astromech R2-A6, he does consider the green-trimmed droid a good luck charm.

[Blake Petit]

What is this "360ep" that Jemas is involved in, anyway?

[Paul D. Storrie]

The biggest problem with Crossgen was hiring so much talent as in-house employees rather than freelance talent. You just can't run a comics company that way anymore. It hasn't been done successfully since the 60s, and with the advent of global digital networks, it's a foolish idea. Sure, you lock talent up, but the cost is too high, and if your ideas aren't a hit, you're not flexible enough to try something else. Linking all the books to one shared universe with little payoff also wasn't a bright idea; it made it too hard for a new reader to jump on.

I tend to disagree, based both on my own observations and on a few conversations I've had with former CrossGen people.

The biggest problem with CrossGen was that Alessi didn't listen to the people that he hired. People who KNOW the business and the artform far better than he ever could. Thus, he made mistakes in creative and marketing matters that he could have avoided.

Another problem was that he seemed to think that just spending money would assure that money came in. While the axiom "You've got to spend money to make money." is often true, you've also got to spend it wisely. I can't even imagine the amount of money he threw away on huge convention booths trying to prove he was in the same league as Marvel and DC even though he obviously wasn't.

PDS

[Paul D. Storrie]

What is this "360ep" that Jemas is involved in, anyway?

An Entertainment Property Management firm. Rather than try to describe it myself, here's the link to their site: 360ep.com (http://www.360ep.com/).

PDS

[david r]

Another huge error by CrossGen was acquiring George Perez and then putting him on Solus. Which is generally considered a huge mistake.

Also what has leaked out about the lies told Mark Waid by Mr. Alessi shows a very different picture of the situation at CrossGen. It seems right as the company was making inroads, Alessi continually shot himself in the foot.

[CoffeeStained]

I dunno if anyone's already posted this, but for good or bad, Wizard is a major marketing force in comics, right? Rick didn't know they had a website. Which raises the question of whether Rick knows what something like, say, offset printing is. I know he's heard of Diamond, because he's already proven he doesn't understand their process, so really, was Rick's operation anything more than a computer in his den? (Which I hope is sold to pay off debts.)

Last but not least, I know Ian Shires has denied working for Rick, but didn't Rick claim to have already paid him an advance?
Ian, I think you're owed money.

So I kinda gleaned a little idea outta this thread, but I have little experience outside of copy-books.
What are some warning flags a creator should look for when dealing with any company, start-up or otherwise, and what are some questions to ask/ info to look for before committing to a publisher.

[THEDOC]

What are some warning flags a creator should look for when dealing with any company, start-up or otherwise, and what are some questions to ask/ info to look for before committing to a publisher.

I would try and get references from other creators who might have worked for said company/person. If is a new company, see if you can possibly find through the internet if this person has had previous issues with anyone else or at least verify their background.

But either way, have a contract with said company and have a legal expert look over contract before you sign.

[Calliope's Comics]

And Never Accept Payment In Magic Beans.

[TCJohnson]

Also, WHERE IS HE GETTING THAT INFO ON THE CHARACTER? "giving Anakin his first flying lesson?" He was a flyer before he left tatooine, in the pod races, he was instructed to hide in a ship until the bad guys had left in the 3rd act of "the first" movie, and then flew the ship on his own to save the day.

He was never "given lessons" before flying.



Actually, he got that from the movie. There was a very brief scene during the time they were flying from Coruscant to Naboo. Ric and Anakin were at the controls and Ric was giving ANakin a brief rundown on what all the controls did. "This one starts the engines...."

[Gail Simone]

I dunno if anyone's already posted this, but for good or bad, Wizard is a major marketing force in comics, right? Rick didn't know they had a website. Which raises the question of whether Rick knows what something like, say, offset printing is. I know he's heard of Diamond, because he's already proven he doesn't understand their process, so really, was Rick's operation anything more than a computer in his den? (Which I hope is sold to pay off debts.)

Last but not least, I know Ian Shires has denied working for Rick, but didn't Rick claim to have already paid him an advance?
Ian, I think you're owed money.

So I kinda gleaned a little idea outta this thread, but I have little experience outside of copy-books.
What are some warning flags a creator should look for when dealing with any company, start-up or otherwise, and what are some questions to ask/ info to look for before committing to a publisher.

That's a very profound observation, you.

It's pretty obvious Rick doesn't know how cons work, or how to print and market comics, particularly since he seems to think his unpleasant blowhardery on a few message boards is somehow making him a household name.

But yeah, I would say, if you know more about publishing than the publisher, there's trouble afoot.

Gail

[Gail Simone]

As for having a form thank you letter from George Lucas (which I'll believe when I see it), I have a couple such letters from Bryan Singer. Does that mean I wrote The Usual Suspects?

Gail

[JamesRitcheyIII]

And Never Accept Payment In Magic Beans.

Boy, I learned that lesson the hard way--Mom's STILL not talking to me because it was her favorite cow, and the Attorney for the Giant's Estate has been hounding me for years, about returning 'stolen property'. They can't do shit, though--there were no eye-witnesses to any so-called 'home invasion (the goose ain't talking)', and it WAS self-defense.

[TCJohnson]

As for having a form thank you letter from George Lucas (which I'll believe when I see it), I have a couple such letters from Bryan Singer. Does that mean I wrote The Usual Suspects?

Gail

No, but Jean Grey has red hair...therefor he modled her on you!

[Joshua Pantalleresco]

And Never Accept Payment In Magic Beans.

You mean, they weren't really magical? Oh man!

JP

[Jamie Coville]

Regarding Gene Day and Jim Shooter here is what Dave Sim said in an interview (http://www.collectortimes.com/2005_07/Clubhouse.html) I did with him in 2005.

Jamie:

Gene died an early death. Can you tell me about Gene sleeping at Marvel's office to fulfill a deadline and the health problems that stemmed from that?

Dave Sim:
Yes, Gene died at the age of 31 from a heart attack. He had been working for Marvel for several years at that point. He started as an inker which was the thing that he was the fastest at, so he built up a really good reputation as a guy who could turn a late job around in a hurry. He was so fast, the people at Marvel were convinced that he had a whole studio of Gene Day clones working night and day, but it was just him. When I'd go and visit him, he'd have piles of 11x17 photocopies of the jobs he had done-he traded his weekly Cap'n Riverrat cartoon to the local weekly newspaper, The Gananoque Reporter for free photocopying. When Mike Zeck left Master of Kung Fu to work on Captain America, Marvel was left without a penciller for the title and the editor persuaded Gene to step in which instantly cut his revenue by a substantial amount-he was a much slower penciller than he was an inker. He also ran afoul of then editor-in-chief Jim Shooter's strict rules about storytelling-that you needed to do the basic six panels to a page method with occasional lapses if you had a good reason for it. Gene, of course was a major fan of Jim Steranko-style storytelling which was exactly what Jim Shooter was opposed to and they locked horns over the subject many times with Gene doing continuous backgrounds in his panel-to-panel continuity (one large background on the page with the action taking place in individual panels set against the one background). Shooter would tell him not to do it and Gene would do it, finally doing I think a five-page sequence that was all one background. At the same time he was doing outside assignments at Marvel including a story for one of the black-and-white magazines (I think it was) which Gene was supposed to pencil and ink. The deadline got moved up or something and they told Gene on the phone that they were going to have the story "gang inked" over a few days. This was something that Marvel did pretty regularly in the 70s to keep books on schedule. They'd get five or six guys to sit in the bullpen and ink a job to get it done faster. As you would expect, the results were usually horrible. One of P. Craig Russell's first jobs for Marvel was part of a gang-inking on an issue of Barry's Conan. For the longest time, my impression of the story was that they had phoned Gene and wanted him to come down and ink the job and that Gene had done so out of loyalty to Marvel even taking the train to Manhattan because he was afraid to fly. It was years later that his brother Dan mentioned to me that what Gene was concerned about was doing as much of the inking himself as he could to keep the job from being a total abomination. The more I think about that, the more it explains what happened. Gene showed up at Marvel and they gave him the address of the hotel he would be staying at. He went there and the place was covered in cockroaches so Gene went back to Marvel and asked to be put up in a better hotel. Nothing fancy, just a place without cockroaches. That was when Tom DeFalco gave him the choice of the roach-infested hotel or sleeping on the couch in Marvel's reception area. Gene chose the latter, not realizing that they turned the heat off in the building overnight (this was in the dead of winter). So he slept there with his coat pulled over him and developed as a result a kidney infection which stuck with him the rest of his life. In retrospect, I think the problem Marvel had was that they had no policy for the situation. They had found their solution, they were going to get the job gang-inked. When Gene insisted on coming down to work on it, it just didn't make sense to them editorially to pay for a hotel room for him given what that was going to add to their costs on the story. For Gene, it was an obvious plus-by coming down and working on the story it would be that much better looking than it would be being inked by whoever happened to be around at the time. But, how the job looked wasn't as big a priority for Marvel as having the job done. What to Gene looked like a sensible improvement solution looked to Marvel like a needless expense and intrusion by a troublemaker. The same could be said of Gene locking horns with Jim Shooter. To Gene, he was trying to make the book better and more interesting. To Shooter he was making it unreadable and therefore uncommercial. On Gene's side of the argument, sales were up on Master of Kung Fu-it had always been a marginal title since Paul Gulacy had left, on the verge of cancellation and now it was turning into a fan favourite again. On Jim Shooter's side of the argument, good nuts-and-bolts six-panels-to-the-page storytelling always sold better in the long run for Marvel. John Buscema's Conan outsold Barry Smith's by a wide margin, as an example. Eventually Shooter fired Gene and I think that, as much as anything, killed Gene Day. His heart and soul were at Marvel Comics. His lifelong dream was to work in the House that Jack Built. Of course, what he failed to see was that working in the House that Jack Built even became an untenable prospect for Jack. And, of course, interviewing as many professionals as I had in my fanzine days, I had a much clearer idea of what Marvel and DC were actually like and just how ruthless the editors could be when the situation seemed to call for ruthlessness (which, as they saw it, it usually did). I knew that in a lot of ways the worst thing you could bring to the table as a freelancer was unwavering company loyalty. For many of the editors at the time, that was just inviting them to rip your heart out. Which, to me, is exactly what Gene did. And exactly what Marvel did.

---

I'm told Gene was outside going for a walk when he had a heart attack and died.

[howyadoin]

That Gene Day story is the definition of morally repugnant. Imagine dying because somebody was too much of a fucking cheapskate to get you a decent hotel room.

[howyadoin]

Also... I would say "we" (the comics industry) have a SHITLOAD of business people involved.Odd, then, that the comic industry's idea of marketing is still such a joke.

[Crowley]

Odd, then, that the comic industry's idea of marketing is still such a joke.
Care to extrapolate on this statement?

And let's also further state that marketing and business sense are two separate entities that are not always in sync.

[Danny Donovan]

Actually, he got that from the movie. There was a very brief scene during the time they were flying from Coruscant to Naboo. Ric and Anakin were at the controls and Ric was giving ANakin a brief rundown on what all the controls did. "This one starts the engines...."

I looked that up on Wikipedia last night, I must have blinked and missed that in the film. To me that wasn't a "lesson" that was some guy being nice to a scared kid...

Same as when a captain visits a kid who's flying for the first time and gives him a little pair of plastic wings, does that mean he's the co-pilot? :-p

[kingdom2000]

The biggest problem with Crossgen was hiring so much talent as in-house employees rather than freelance talent. You just can't run a comics company that way anymore. It hasn't been done successfully since the 60s, and with the advent of global digital networks, it's a foolish idea. Sure, you lock talent up, but the cost is too high, and if your ideas aren't a hit, you're not flexible enough to try something else. Linking all the books to one shared universe with little payoff also wasn't a bright idea; it made it too hard for a new reader to jump on.

Wait doesn't that sound just like the exclusive deals that currently exist within DC and Marvel? Oh yeah it does. And the shared universe, again DC with everything from the last three years and Marvel with Avengers Disassembled to present. There isn't nothing Crossgen did that the big two are not doing now. The main difference was Alessi simply didn't have the sells to maintain the size. It should have been gradual and slow growth rather then huge company from day one that tried to go toe to toe with Marvel and DC.

[kingdom2000]

That's the game... in EVERY business.

But most "macro" businesses are growing. If you eat yourself to long, there is nothing left. Which is what is happening to comics. WIth all the attentions comics are getting due to the various movies, the growth of the industry as a whole is pathetic. I am not entirely sure if the increased sales isn't mostly from the same customer base just buying more comics rather then new customers. This should be a new golden age in comics economically but it isn't.

[kingdom2000]

All the newspapers and magazines are wringing their hands over the internet coming to kill them. Meanwhile, Walgreens' shelves and Walden Books' spinner racks are becoming things of the past because the cost of that shelf space versus the amount of profit brought in. Comic books are R&D for other media and to get out licensing rights for merchandise... See the Cowboys & Aliens scandal. But the trade market is expanding to Hot Topics, Walmarts and Borders.

The direct market will need to branch out to survive... in Chicago, Chicago Comics is a pretty great example. I walk into that store and along with Superhero chotka you find books on art, art supplies, vintage pinups books, graphic design books, loads of biographies, manga, European comics, a full room of independent books, alternative lifestyle magazines, porn, photography books, sci-fi paraphernalia, Art magazines like Illustrator and Juxtapoz, etc.

Actually newspapers are not hurting as much as they pretend. Most newspapers are still making double digits profits. The "hurt" is the profits have gone down from say 30% to around 18% profit margin. But a high profit is still a high profit. Most companies profits are usually in the 1%-4% range to give a little perspective.

Diverisfying is good btw, but its also a very expensive gamble. Most comic shops can't afford it. The problem at the end of the day will always be the problem with most products, good or bad, the price. PS3 vs Wii is a classic example of this. Once you price yourself out of the market, the recovery is that much more difficult. I am betting that once the PS3 reaches that price point that people feel its worth having, it will skyrocket in sales. At the end of the day, while quality will keep people coming back for more, its price that gets them willing to try you out to begin with.

[wishlish]

What is this "360ep" that Jemas is involved in, anyway?

www.360ep.com

It's a licensing company.

[wishlish]

Wait doesn't that sound just like the exclusive deals that currently exist within DC and Marvel? Oh yeah it does. And the shared universe, again DC with everything from the last three years and Marvel with Avengers Disassembled to present. There isn't nothing Crossgen did that the big two are not doing now. The main difference was Alessi simply didn't have the sells to maintain the size. It should have been gradual and slow growth rather then huge company from day one that tried to go toe to toe with Marvel and DC.

The difference between the DC/Marvel exclusive deal and the Crossgen deal is that, with Crossgen, you had to move to Florida! If Marvel insisted on the same sort of deal, they couldn't get talent like Bendis, Millar, Brubaker, et al. Crossgen's plan meant that they got all of the costs of an employee without truly being able to pick the best talent out there. They were only able to get the best talent willing to move to Tampa. Certainly, they got some fine talent, but the cost they paid was too high.

And yes, Alessi not listening to a lot of those employees probably didn't help, either.

[Kurt Busiek]

The biggest problem with Crossgen was hiring so much talent as in-house employees rather than freelance talent. You just can't run a comics company that way anymore. It hasn't been done successfully since the 60s, and with the advent of global digital networks, it's a foolish idea.

Wait doesn't that sound just like the exclusive deals that currently exist within DC and Marvel? Oh yeah it does.

No, it doesn't. Freelancers exclusive to DC and Marvel are not in-house employees, they're contract freelancers. The publishers don't have to pay for our office space, relocation costs and other expenses CrossGen took on.

And the shared universe, again DC with everything from the last three years and Marvel with Avengers Disassembled to present.

DC and Marvel built up loyalty in their shared universes over decades; they didn't start that way from ground zero and didn't root their early appeal in the idea of a shared universe. They grew into the universes, built around popular characters.

There isn't nothing Crossgen did that the big two are not doing now.

Sure there is. They made the creative staff in-house employees, for one, and tried to launch a fantasy-based shared-universe in which most of the books were set on different planets, despite fantasy books not being a strong market performer and the idea of shared-universe appeal depending largely on character proximity.

The bit Wishlish got wrong is that even in the 1960s, the vast majority of creators weren't in-house employees. Most of them were freelancers, and most of those who had staff jobs freelanced in their off-hours.

kdb

[Crowley]

But most "macro" businesses are growing. If you eat yourself to long, there is nothing left. Which is what is happening to comics. WIth all the attentions comics are getting due to the various movies, the growth of the industry as a whole is pathetic. I am not entirely sure if the increased sales isn't mostly from the same customer base just buying more comics rather then new customers. This should be a new golden age in comics economically but it isn't.

The sales you are referring to are DIRECT market sales.
Those are the specialty shops... I don't believe they factor in the Hot Topics, the Borders, Walmart and SciFi book club sales...

...though I could be wrong.

[howyadoin]

Care to extrapolate on this statement?Well, look at the carnival barker/snakeoil-salesman public personas that guys like Quesada and Jemas purportedly adopt. That kind of marketing was an old, tired idea a couple decades ago. Outside of furniture warehouse ads, who uses that anymore? And I'd say that putting such a dimwitted public face on the comic industry is one of the reasons that, regardless of the somewhat healthier state of the industry right now in relation to where it was 7 or 8 years ago, the industry is still so marginal. How can you take someone seriously when they act and talk like that?
And let's also further state that marketing and business sense are two separate entities that are not always in sync.That's a very good point.

[Danny Donovan]

The sales you are referring to are DIRECT market sales.
Those are the specialty shops... I don't believe they factor in the Hot Topics, the Borders, Walmart and SciFi book club sales...

...though I could be wrong.

It's still Diamond.

While *some* publishers do still use the *mainstream* players like Ingram, more and more, they have started giving exclusive distribution rights to Diamond for a little bit of a direct market push, not realizing that the direct market should not be your first choice.

The direct market was, and should always be a secondary market. It's for getting back issues, other periphials, and while at the same time allowing you access to the current catalogue of products. The direct market was always for when you were already in the door as a consumer. The mass market is your stepping stone to the market.

In the mass market, diamond is still a very small player in the long run. And book stores are often times hesitant to open an account with a new group when they can service the same clientel via the few options provided to them from the major distributors like Ingram, Ubiquity, etc.

It's hard to gauge sales from an individual perspective, because the diamond top 100/300/whatever only covers what Diamond distributes, (naturally) and it's only what's ordered by the stores, not what's bought by consumers. Due to the fact there's no return, you have no gauge as to what's getting a sell through and what is being gambled on selling well from a retailer

There is a larger market that a lot of major publishers ignore because its easier to be a big fish in a small pond than to be a small, but growing fish in the ocean.

[Crowley]

Actually newspapers are not hurting as much as they pretend. Most newspapers are still making double digits profits. The "hurt" is the profits have gone down from say 30% to around 18% profit margin. But a high profit is still a high profit. Most companies profits are usually in the 1%-4% range to give a little perspective.
I'd like to see sources for your figures...

I could be in error but I'm fairly certain you're wrong... nearly half my family works in the newspaper business.

Subscriptions are down and the cost of paper isn't getting any cheaper.
A large majority of corporate newspapers are on hiring freezes currently and have cut the travel budgets of their writers. They instead turning to the wire and other papers owned by their family corporation (gannet, cox, etc.)

http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2007/01/19/time_inc_cuts_289_magazine_positions/
http://www.usatoday.com/money/media/2006-05-08-newspaper-circulation_x.htm
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/11/08/BUGSOFKG991.DTL
http://www.stateofthenewsmedia.org/narrative_newspapers_audience.asp?cat=3&media=2

[Crowley]

It's still Diamond.

While *some* publishers do still use the *mainstream* players like Ingram, more and more, they have started giving exclusive distribution rights to Diamond for a little bit of a direct market push, not realizing that the direct market should not be your first choice.

The direct market was, and should always be a secondary market. It's for getting back issues, other periphials, and while at the same time allowing you access to the current catalogue of products. The direct market was always for when you were already in the door as a consumer. The mass market is your stepping stone to the market.

In the mass market, diamond is still a very small player in the long run. And book stores are often times hesitant to open an account with a new group when they can service the same clientel via the few options provided to them from the major distributors like Ingram, Ubiquity, etc.

It's hard to gauge sales from an individual perspective, because the diamond top 100/300/whatever only covers what Diamond distributes, (naturally) and it's only what's ordered by the stores, not what's bought by consumers. Due to the fact there's no return, you have no gauge as to what's getting a sell through and what is being gambled on selling well from a retailer

There is a larger market that a lot of major publishers ignore because its easier to be a big fish in a small pond than to be a small, but growing fish in the ocean.
again:

The sales you are referring to are DIRECT market sales.Those are the specialty shops...
I'm referring to Diamond here, obviously.

I don't believe they factor in the Hot Topics, the Borders, Walmart and SciFi book club sales...
Again, the "sales" we're typically shown are the Diamond sales... not the amount of product moved through Borders.

Notice how the TPB section keeps growing?
If product wasn't moving... they wouldn't be expanding those sections.

[AIPman1]

Last but not least, I know Ian Shires has denied working for Rick, but didn't Rick claim to have already paid him an advance?
Ian, I think you're owed money.


Ach....I'd rather be poor.

[PatrickG]

Wait doesn't that sound just like the exclusive deals that currently exist within DC and Marvel? Oh yeah it does. And the shared universe, again DC with everything from the last three years and Marvel with Avengers Disassembled to present. There isn't nothing Crossgen did that the big two are not doing now. The main difference was Alessi simply didn't have the sells to maintain the size. It should have been gradual and slow growth rather then huge company from day one that tried to go toe to toe with Marvel and DC.

Well... I think you're describing things that act as an albatross on the big two, more often than not.

But the shared universe works because the characters are familiar and they were established independently before being thrown into the pool together, as far as the tentpole characters like Batman or Spider-man go. And much of the "shared universe" stuff stems out of successful trailblazing properties like FF or the Flash. The shared universes exist because many of the individual characters were popular and because of spinoffs.

And Alessi PHYSICALLY MOVED his talent to Florida. DC and Marvel may sign a lot of exclusives but those creators aren't asked to set up shop in NYC or work in an office together. Or take Italian lessons.

I wish CrossGen did take off. A lot of creators whose work and wellbeing I care about got stiffed. My contact info was on file with CrossGen and I would have gladly moved to Florida if they had expanded. I still have a nice letter from Ron Marz and a ballcap and bunch of signed loot from the whole CrossGen staff from the response letter to my submission.

But it would have been wiser to diversify the initial offering and build a universe out of the more successful books. Or maybe buy up a few established properties and build a universe around them. Or use the talent more effectively.

What's spectacular about CrossGen is that I'd wager that half the people on this board -- with or without publishing experience -- could build a successful comic book company with the kind of money Alessi spent.

What's disturbing about Olney is that he was able to get away with so much for so little. I'd also wager that half the people on this board could have talked the wonderful creators that Olney screwed into working for them if Olney could with his bizarre grasp on the English language. The difference is, most of us are honorable enough or at least sane enough not to try what Olney tried.

That's a bit of a double-edged sword. On one hand, it's great that there aren't more Olneys. On the other hand... Stories like this probably make a lot of creators wary about working with small or untested publishers.

[PatrickG]

No, it doesn't. Freelancers exclusive to DC and Marvel are not in-house employees, they're contract freelancers. The publishers don't have to pay for our office space, relocation costs and other expenses CrossGen took on.
...
kdb

And Kurt teaches me to finish reading the thread before replying...

[NatGertler]

While *some* publishers do still use the *mainstream* players like Ingram, more and more, they have started giving exclusive distribution rights to Diamond for a little bit of a direct market push, not realizing that the direct market should not be your first choice. [...]In the mass market, diamond is still a very small player in the long run. And book stores are often times hesitant to open an account with a new group when they can service the same clientel via the few options provided to them from the major distributors like Ingram, Ubiquity, etc. I'm afraid this statement shows some basic misunderstanding of what's going on.
There are two Diamond "exclusive" agreements that a publisher can make. One is an agreement with Diamond Comics Distributors, the folks who serve the direct market. Signing that exclusive does not prevent one from using any other distributor to the bookstore market (or the "newsstand" market, if one is offering periodicals).

The other exclusive would be an exclusive with Diamond Book Distributors, which would be your exclusive for the bookstore market (and would not prevent you from using any other distributor in the comic shop market.) If a publisher signs with them, their books are still available through Ingram, B&T, and the like. You see, the bookstore market tends to run with two levels of middlemen, the distributor and the wholesaler. The small bookstore doesn't need to open a new account with anyone to order Diamond product; they can get it from their usual wholesaler.

[Crowley]

I'm afraid this statement shows some basic misunderstanding of what's going on.
There are two Diamond "exclusive" agreements that a publisher can make. One is an agreement with Diamond Comics Distributors, the folks who serve the direct market. Signing that exclusive does not prevent one from using any other distributor to the bookstore market (or the "newsstand" market, if one is offering periodicals).

The other exclusive would be an exclusive with Diamond Book Distributors, which would be your exclusive for the bookstore market (and would not prevent you from using any other distributor in the comic shop market.) If a publisher signs with them, their books are still available through Ingram, B&T, and the like. You see, the bookstore market tends to run with two levels of middlemen, the distributor and the wholesaler. The small bookstore doesn't need to open a new account with anyone to order Diamond product; they can get it from their usual wholesaler.

well said.

[Blake Petit]

I've got huuuuuge problems with the Diamond system, and the last few pages of this thread have helped point out just what they are.

[PatrickG]

I used to harp on Diamond in some correspondences with an executive editor at one of the big two in the industry.

Granted, this is ten years ago. I was a teenager. The internet was fresh for a lot of people. I imagine a lot has changed. (In fact, I've spoken to Didio and had correspondences with Quesada that indicate that a lot HAS changed.)

But the response I got was:

- That marketing wasn't a big concern.
- Comics are a fad that come and go in popularity, like yo-yos and hula hoops. (Insert Company Here) wasn't in the business of changing that.
- (Insert Company Here) would only actively pursue more newstand and mainstream exposure if the Direct Market collapsed.

I've witheld the name since we're talking about a private e-mail from ten years ago. But I think it's pretty damned embarassing as a statement coming from a man who was probably one of the ten most powerful people in the industry at that point.

[Gail Simone]

JUST OUT OF CURIOSITY...

How did those of you unfortunate enough to encounter Rick actually first come across him? Did he email you, meet you at a con, what?

Just wondering.

Gail

[Blake Petit]

Geez, that's sad, Patrick.

For my part, Gail, I got into contact with him through Ronee. I'm not sure how she first encountered him. Ro?

[Danny Donovan]

JUST OUT OF CURIOSITY...

How did those of you unfortunate enough to encounter Rick actually first come across him? Did he email you, meet you at a con, what?

Just wondering.

Gail

He e-mailed me after seeing an interview I did with, I think it was The Pulse.. or Newsarama. Some website I can't remember.

Asked me if I would be interested in doing some freelance work for him and being that I needed some money I took him up on it. But after a few months of not getting payments and only excuses I told him I'd hold off on doing anything else until he settled the debts he already accrued.

That never happened.

[Ronée]

he used to read my column, then on PopCultureshock and befriended me on Myspace.

[Blake Petit]

Ah, that explains it -- you're quite the gregarious sort. :)

The good news is, this whole debacle has landed us both in some very good company.

[AaronJ]

He e-mailed me after seeing an interview I did with, I think it was The Pulse.. or Newsarama. Some website I can't remember.

Asked me if I would be interested in doing some freelance work for him and being that I needed some money I took him up on it. But after a few months of not getting payments and only excuses I told him I'd hold off on doing anything else until he settled the debts he already accrued.

That never happened.

I'm sort of guessing that that last line wasn't entirely necessary. :)

[PatrickG]

BTW... Just a question, one that Olney was too chicken to actually ask:

Would any of you have worked for backend pay if that had been stated upfront?

I've been told repeatedly by the Image folks that the ideal scenario is for a writer to recruit an artist (or vice versa), prepare a few pages and plan on backend pay.

I've never had any success recruiting anyone like this. I think Olney was savvy enough to know he couldn't do this and deluded enough to think he'd make a king's ransom and shut everyone up by paying them -- with NDAs to keep them quiet until the profits actually rolled in. Which is remarkably deluded considering his budget for ONE BOOK was around $40k, wasn't it?

I'd consider selling 15k to be EARTH SHATTERING for a new indy publisher. (And by earth shattering, I'm suggesting you outsell any book published by Image on a fairly average month.)

Now... Running with the idea of a 22 page book, that puts a pagerate of $170 a page as the theoretical MAXIMUM I'd ever conceivably budget. FOR THE WHOLE TEAM.

In my case, I'd probably push to retain (at least half) rights for the characters/story and hope to make money off a movie/licensing deal or some off trades while forking every cent of profit from the comic over to the art teams.

[JTPencils]

JUST OUT OF CURIOSITY...

How did those of you unfortunate enough to encounter Rick actually first come across him? Did he email you, meet you at a con, what?

Just wondering.

Gail

I met him at one of the few actual MMC con's that took place. A while later, he emailed me about the prospect of this "great huge new project". Pretty much downhill from there. As we all know.

[wishlish]

It's still Diamond.

While *some* publishers do still use the *mainstream* players like Ingram, more and more, they have started giving exclusive distribution rights to Diamond for a little bit of a direct market push, not realizing that the direct market should not be your first choice.


Depends on the publisher. If you're putting out genre work, chances are you're working with Diamond. But the non-genre players (Fanta, D&Q, Top Shelf, and all the NY book publishers with graphic novel houses) tend to use non-Diamond distributors, since their stuff isn't aimed at capturing direct market business (I believe Kim Thompson says only a handful of Fanta business happens in the Direct Market, for example).

The Direct Market, for better or for worse, is the best place to sell genre comics. If you're marketing superheroes, sword-n-sorcery, or fantasy work, you're probably going to need Diamond and the DM. If you're marketing, for example, an autobiographical work based around your childhood in a funeral home and your closeted father and how it affected your life as a gay cartoonist (i.e. the award-winning Fun House), you're better off forgetting significant DM penetration and casting your lot with book publishers and traditional book distributors.

(And go read Fun House- it's a fantastic graphic novel. It deserves every accolade it's getting.)

[wishlish]

Well, look at the carnival barker/snakeoil-salesman public personas that guys like Quesada and Jemas purportedly adopt. That kind of marketing was an old, tired idea a couple decades ago. Outside of furniture warehouse ads, who uses that anymore? And I'd say that putting such a dimwitted public face on the comic industry is one of the reasons that, regardless of the somewhat healthier state of the industry right now in relation to where it was 7 or 8 years ago, the industry is still so marginal. How can you take someone seriously when they act and talk like that?


Name me an entertainment industry that DOESN'T rely on some sort of snake-oil marketing. The music industry relied on payola for a number of years to push its product, then engaged in illegal price-setting until the Feds stepped in. I'm not as familiar with movie marketing, but I'm sure that there are bodies buried there. Heck, a significant player in the book industry (Judith Regan of ReganBooks) made a deal with OJ Simpson to sell words printed on pulp. If you're saying that comics are marginal because some people in comics act terribly, I can't accept that argument.

What made comics marginal for a long time was the thought that comics could only be Marvel/DC style comics- superhero comics that were part of a self-contained entity (the respective Universes). Don't get me wrong; I love the Marvel Universe and the DC Universe. I view them as some of the greatest storytelling experiments of the Western world: meta-sized fictions with multiple authors. Imagine if the Odyssey have as many authors as Marvel Comics, each focusing on a major or minor character in the story. Marvel/DC comics, when done right, are pretty cool. But it's damn hard to reproduce what they've done (see Crossgen, Dark Horse's Comics Greatest World, and all sorts of other attempts). And comics can do a lot more than that, as we're now finally witnessing.

[NatGertler]

Depends on the publisher. If you're putting out genre work, chances are you're working with Diamond. But the non-genre players (Fanta, D&Q, Top Shelf, and all the NY book publishers with graphic novel houses) tend to use non-Diamond distributorsFantagraphics, D&Q, and Top Shelf are all distributed through Diamond for the Direct Market. Top Shelf is distributed by Diamond Book Distributors (http://www.topshelfcomix.com/contact.php?section=distributors) to the bookstore market.

While there are some advantages in ones direct market dealings to having Diamond Book Distributors handle your bookstore market dealings, there are also the very real advantages of dealing with a distributor that understands the comics form and who offer a range of comics materials in these days when stores are expanding their GN sections.

[Danny Donovan]

BTW... Just a question, one that Olney was too chicken to actually ask:

Would any of you have worked for backend pay if that had been stated upfront?

I've been told repeatedly by the Image folks that the ideal scenario is for a writer to recruit an artist (or vice versa), prepare a few pages and plan on backend pay.

I've never had any success recruiting anyone like this. I think Olney was savvy enough to know he couldn't do this and deluded enough to think he'd make a king's ransom and shut everyone up by paying them -- with NDAs to keep them quiet until the profits actually rolled in. Which is remarkably deluded considering his budget for ONE BOOK was around $40k, wasn't it?

I'd consider selling 15k to be EARTH SHATTERING for a new indy publisher. (And by earth shattering, I'm suggesting you outsell any book published by Image on a fairly average month.)

Now... Running with the idea of a 22 page book, that puts a page rate of $170 a page as the theoretical MAXIMUM I'd ever conceivably budget. FOR THE WHOLE TEAM.

In my case, I'd probably push to retain (at least half) rights for the characters/story and hope to make money off a movie/licensing deal or some off trades while forking every cent of profit from the comic over to the art teams.

I would have worked for an after market deal, if I knew what methods he was doing and it was explained to me. If I felt it had a chance at being successful I would have thrown in, and if not, depending on the amount of work I was asked to do I would have considered it.

The column thing, was not much in the way of effort. He wanted something brief, about the current state of comics. Sort of a monthly editorial of the ins and outs of what was going on. That wouldn't be much trouble... But you can't expect someone to agree to that type of deal after being promised x amount for work.

I've had successes getting people to produce work for me for an after market deal, (now, produce them in a timely manner, that's another thing ALL TOGETHER right Jim? :-p) If your approach is strong enough and you show a decent idea of being able to sell the product, there are a lot of artists that will work with you.

Some have enough paying work that they don't really have to take a chance on a "might be" others are willing to draw a couple of story pages on the basis of if they sell it, they get a share of the profits, if not, an editor will be looking at their work, and they have a sequential piece in their portfolio to show at con season.

Right now I have two projects on my desk that are both working with artists on the back end. One with Jim Ritchey, and Mark Stegbauer, and another with Sara Heiny-Ramirez (linked in Papergirl's signature, and the one who did her redheaded outlaw avatar)

So it's just the matter of looking for an artist that's the right match for you, someone that has faith in your project or is just a REALLY good friend (thanks Mark!) 40K is a bit steep for your average indy publisher. unless you were like Alessi and had a fortune to back it up...

Some are lucky to get 10K for start up capital. One wonders how he managed to pull off the conventions that DID come to pass as it takes a lot more to put one of those on than it does to publish (depending on the size of the con of course)

But he did pre-sell vendor slots which I'm sure helped a bit.

[Crowley]

I would have worked for an after market deal, if I knew what methods he was doing and it was explained to me. If I felt it had a chance at being successful I would have thrown in, and if not, depending on the amount of work I was asked to do I would have considered it.

The column thing, was not much in the way of effort. He wanted something brief, about the current state of comics. Sort of a monthly editorial of the ins and outs of what was going on. That wouldn't be much trouble... But you can't expect someone to agree to that type of deal after being promised x amount for work.

Speaking of Editorial... I notice you have Mark Powers mentioned in your MySpace profile. He's been my editor on D&D for the last year as well as the new writer on the G.I. Joe books I do work on.

He and I had a great time chatting about Cable when we finally met in person in November, I'll have to mention you...

[JamesRitcheyIII]

JUST OUT OF CURIOSITY...

How did those of you unfortunate enough to encounter Rick actually first come across him? Did he email you, meet you at a con, what?

Just wondering.

Gail

Actually, I blame Danny Donovan. He told me I should register at MMC--like, 'Oh, yeah! It's really cool over there, you should join--Rick's a great guy--and he wants to publish COMICS!". As any sensible person would, I've been secretly plotting D. Dilton's bloody, painful and humiliating murder, since October, 2005.

Of course, I blame Donny Dagobert for everything bad. It's great if anyone is uncomfortable with nonsensical circumstances--Acts of God, or even just to evade feeling personal responsibility, as most people do. Fall of the enlightened Wiemar Republic in post-WWI Germany, leading to WWII? Danny. Katrina? Danny Did It. See? It's fun! :D

[howyadoin]

Name me an entertainment industry that DOESN'T rely on some sort of snake-oil marketing. The music industry relied on payola for a number of years to push its product, then engaged in illegal price-setting until the Feds stepped in. I'm not as familiar with movie marketing, but I'm sure that there are bodies buried there. Heck, a significant player in the book industry (Judith Regan of ReganBooks) made a deal with OJ Simpson to sell words printed on pulp. If you're saying that comics are marginal because some people in comics act terribly, I can't accept that argument.Those are all interesting points, but I'm not sure what they have to do with what I actually said. My point is that most of what they do in the way of advertising/marketing/public relations smacks of low-budget television ads for carpet warehouses - clumsy and awkward, and evidently conceived by people who think it's still the 1950s.

[Papergirl]

Actually, I blame Danny Donovan. He told me I should register at MMC--like, 'Oh, yeah! It's really cool over there, you should join--Rick's a great guy--and he wants to publish COMICS!". As any sensible person would, I've been secretly plotting D. Dilton's bloody, painful and humiliating murder, since October, 2005.

Of course, I blame Donny Dagobert for everything bad. It's great if anyone is uncomfortable with nonsensical circumstances--Acts of God, or even just to evade feeling personal responsibility, as most people do. Fall of the enlightened Wiemar Republic in post-WWI Germany, leading to WWII? Danny. Katrina? Danny Did It. See? It's fun! :D
Danny Donovan -- Scapegoat of the YABS board!

:D

~Bev

[THEDOC]

JUST OUT OF CURIOSITY...

How did those of you unfortunate enough to encounter Rick actually first come across him? Did he email you, meet you at a con, what?

Just wondering.

Gail

...trying..to ..get..RO..out..of..my..memori...Oh!
Well I think I might have encountered him through SPA for which I do not blame Ian :-D. He "seemed" OK at the time he was whining about someone from ORCA that was stabbing him in the back and of course Ian was very supportive of RO.
I know when the whole "deleted his post" thing started , it was from me talking about WW which though I liked, was wishing there were more conms in the Chicago area (we only had WW and ComicFest).
I think he started a tangent about the evils of WW and it went bad from there. Wish we still had those posts.
I know he showed up at theSmall Press Pvaler Yahoo site and went off there as and on my IF Forum.
Thanks the gods we all survived that and now are all talking again.

[Danny Donovan]

Speaking of Editorial... I notice you have Mark Powers mentioned in your MySpace profile. He's been my editor on D&D for the last year as well as the new writer on the G.I. Joe books I do work on.

He and I had a great time chatting about Cable when we finally met in person in November, I'll have to mention you...

cool! Yeah, he was the editor for a Gambit story I sold back in 2000.... I had a few good conversations with him. Liked him a lot. Send my congrats on the G.I. Joe thing. :) I heard from someone awhile ago he moved to DDP

[THEDOC]

Actually, I blame Danny Donovan. He told me I should register at MMC--like, 'Oh, yeah! It's really cool over there, you should join--Rick's a great guy--and he wants to publish COMICS!". As any sensible person would, I've been secretly plotting D. Dilton's bloody, painful and humiliating murder, since October, 2005.

Of course, I blame Donny Dagobert for everything bad. It's great if anyone is uncomfortable with nonsensical circumstances--Acts of God, or even just to evade feeling personal responsibility, as most people do. Fall of the enlightened Wiemar Republic in post-WWI Germany, leading to WWII? Danny. Katrina? Danny Did It. See? It's fun! :D

Well James, I am glad Mr. Donovan got you on MMC or I woudln't had met either of you or known about Radio-Free. Remember those great GA discussions we had there?
Again I thank Danny not RO.

[Danny Donovan]

Actually, I blame Danny Donovan. He told me I should register at MMC--like, 'Oh, yeah! It's really cool over there, you should join--Rick's a great guy--and he wants to publish COMICS!". As any sensible person would, I've been secretly plotting D. Dilton's bloody, painful and humiliating murder, since October, 2005.

Of course, I blame Donny Dagobert for everything bad. It's great if anyone is uncomfortable with nonsensical circumstances--Acts of God, or even just to evade feeling personal responsibility, as most people do. Fall of the enlightened Wiemar Republic in post-WWI Germany, leading to WWII? Danny. Katrina? Danny Did It. See? It's fun! :D

It was my revenge on you for being a perfectionist and taking forever on those NF pages. ;) Although it worked out well because now we have mark inking and it's a perfect fit.

So you may now live. ;)

Yes Bev, I find I am often a convieniant scapegoat. ;)

[howyadoin]

...and would not prevent you from using any other distributor in the comic shop market.There are other distributors in the direct market? I thought the one that Marvel bought was the last one.

[wishlish]

Fantagraphics, D&Q, and Top Shelf are all distributed through Diamond for the Direct Market. Top Shelf is distributed by Diamond Book Distributors (http://www.topshelfcomix.com/contact.php?section=distributors) to the bookstore market.

While there are some advantages in ones direct market dealings to having Diamond Book Distributors handle your bookstore market dealings, there are also the very real advantages of dealing with a distributor that understands the comics form and who offer a range of comics materials in these days when stores are expanding their GN sections.

Damn, Nat, I hate it when you use logic and facts to shoot down my arguments. See if *I'll* ever buy another one of your books...oh wait...I'm preordering the 2006 24 Hour Comics book...never mind...

A few points:

1. Everyone who wants to deal with the DM deals with Diamond, sure. But I'd suspect that the percentage of business those companies (other than Top Shelf) does with Diamond compared to their book trade is quite small. I wish I could find that quote from Kim Thompson. My point was that, for those companies, they could decide not to work with Diamond and probably survive the loss of the DM business. That probably wasn't true of Fanta before the Peanuts project, of course. And I doubt any of the companies would want to make that choice. But non-genre companies without DM penetration don't depend on Diamond. (Whereas I can't figure out how Olney, even if he paid his artists and tries to publish the TLE books, would make any headway WITHOUT Diamond.)

2. I didn't know Top Shelf was a Diamond exclusive. But they did go outside the direct market with Lost Girls pre-orders, selling quite a few autographed copies at double cover directly to the public. Yes, every publisher with a web presence utilizes public pre-orders, but I doubt they'd use them to the extent Top Shelf did with Lost Girls. I suspect a lot of the money from that promotion went to paying the printer for the first run.

[THEDOC]

Those are all interesting points, but I'm not sure what they have to do with what I actually said. My point is that most of what they do in the way of advertising/marketing/public relations smacks of low-budget television ads for carpet warehouses - clumsy and awkward, and evidently conceived by people who think it's still the 1950s.

RO reminds me of Cal Worthington and his used car ads back in the 70's 80's. "I'll stand on my head to make a deal". In RO's case it's "I'll lie through my teeth to get you to sign."

[wishlish]

Those are all interesting points, but I'm not sure what they have to do with what I actually said. My point is that most of what they do in the way of advertising/marketing/public relations smacks of low-budget television ads for carpet warehouses - clumsy and awkward, and evidently conceived by people who think it's still the 1950s.

The counterargument to this is how comics built an audience with the biggest growth market they've had- libraries.

My wife's a branch manager of a library, and I've seen how comics companies have cultivated librarians to get their books into library patrons. There's nothing clumsy or awkward (or Olneyish) about it. Neil Gaiman and Jeff Smith (among others) worked with key players in the young adult librarian world to push comics onto library shelves, and companies like Tokyopop, Viz, and others have done a fantastic job marketing their product.

If you only consider marketing to be TV/radio, then sure, comics don't utilize those tools to promote their products. It's just not cost-effective. But very few book publishers use anything more than radio, and only for best-sellers. And newspaper ads reach the wrong demographic.

[wishlish]

There are other distributors in the direct market? I thought the one that Marvel bought was the last one.

There's Cold Cut (http://www.coldcut.com) for certain indies.

[wishlish]

Geez, that's sad, Patrick.

For my part, Gail, I got into contact with him through Ronee. I'm not sure how she first encountered him. Ro?

Ronee's the carrier of the Olney virus! RUN!

[AaronJ]

If you only consider marketing to be TV/radio, then sure, comics don't utilize those tools to promote their products. It's just not cost-effective. But very few book publishers use anything more than radio, and only for best-sellers. And newspaper ads reach the wrong demographic.

This is one of the things I often wonder about.

I have no idea what the economics of, say, DC are. But it strikes me as unlikely that running television ads would actually help.

OTOH, it would be interesting to see it tried, even on a very small scale. (Heck, it might have been, and I just don't know about it.)

Seems to me that the best marketing the Big 2 will ever get is their own movies. Of course, that presents a whole different level of issues, as well.

[Papergirl]

Ronee's the carrier of the Olney virus! RUN!
Nonono... Danny is.

At least, that's who we're blaming for it this week. :D

~Bev

[NatGertler]

There are other distributors in the direct market? I thought the one that Marvel bought was the last one.No, there were other distributors even after Marvel closed down HW. FM International was still around until, oh, a year or so ago. Cold Cut (who are primarily a reorder distributor) is still around.

[AaronJ]

Nonono... Danny is.

At least, that's who we're blaming for it this week. :D

~Bev

Your new avatar is mesmerizing.

[howyadoin]

The counterargument to this is how comics built an audience with the biggest growth market they've had- libraries.

My wife's a branch manager of a library, and I've seen how comics companies have cultivated librarians to get their books into library patrons. There's nothing clumsy or awkward (or Olneyish) about it. Neil Gaiman and Jeff Smith (among others) worked with key players in the young adult librarian world to push comics onto library shelves, and companies like Tokyopop, Viz, and others have done a fantastic job marketing their product.

If you only consider marketing to be TV/radio, then sure, comics don't utilize those tools to promote their products. It's just not cost-effective. But very few book publishers use anything more than radio, and only for best-sellers. And newspaper ads reach the wrong demographic.I'm thinking of several different things, actually - the number of music- and movie-related comics that aren't cross-marketed with the actual music and movies, for instance. Or, as I said earlier, the loud-mouthed-jackass public persona that some very prominent people in the industry seem to feel the need to put on (assuming it actually is a put-on, of course). Or Marvel putting an ad on every second page of their December issues in 2005.

I'm not entirely buying your dismissal of newspapers, either. They reach a lot of different demographics, and some of them might well be people who would buy comics if they didn't have the stigma of the snake-oil salesmen.

Or how 'bout putting an ad in Rolling Stone or Spin? Expensive? Probably. But the potential payoff from a demographic that doesn't necessarily look down its nose at comics could be huge, if so many powerful people in the industry didn't seem bent on maintaining their big-fish-in-a-small-pond status.

[Papergirl]

Your new avatar is mesmerizing.
Thanks! I think so, too!

This gentleman (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=4263199&postcount=77) made it after I requested a Poison Ivy one. :)

~Bev

[Danny Donovan]

Nonono... Danny is.

At least, that's who we're blaming for it this week. :D

~Bev

Well you know who is *my* scapegoat? The Amish.

[NatGertler]

Damn, Nat, I hate it when you use logic and facts to shoot down my arguments.What do you want me to use, a baseball bat?
See if *I'll* ever buy another one of your books...oh wait...I'm preordering the 2006 24 Hour Comics book...never mind...(Thanks.) Remember, the more About Comics books you buy, the more works I'm encouraged to publish, and the less time I'll have to shoot down arguments.

My point was that, for those companies, they could decide not to work with Diamond and probably survive the loss of the DM business.We should note that there's a difference between dealing with Diamond Comics Distributors, dealing with the direct market, and selling through comic book stores. I can't speak to Fantagraphics (who I know represent themselves as doing a small portion of their business through the comic shops), but D&Q sells directly to comic shops. And the retailers that do big business in indy squarebound material are apt to order through bookstore distributors as well, even for books from publishers which are available through Diamond.
But non-genre companies without DM penetration don't depend on Diamond.They don't? Archie gets a small portion oftheir sales through the DM... but Diamond Book Distribution is their distributor. If you look at DBD's client list (http://www.diamondbookdistributors.com/clients.asp) (although I believe this one is a bit dated), I see a lot of companies that don't seem to have that much DM distribution nor deal in the primary genres. If you're a prose book publisher that is adding a few graphic novels to your catalog, then no, you're not likely to switch your distribution agreement over to DBD.
(Whereas I can't figure out how Olney, even if he paid his artists and tries to publish the TLE books, would make any headway WITHOUT Diamond.)There are always possibilities for aiming a book outside the DM; someone earlier noted that Olney had claimed to have a PX distribution deal, which would not depend on Diamond. There have been various other deals at various times which have allowed projects to do without Diamond; I know I wrote some material for a profitable project that was a Wal-Mart exclusive, there have been comics that have sold primarily or solely at race tracks, and so forth. There are other models out there... which does not mean that I assume that Rick actually had anything in place.

But they did go outside the direct market with Lost Girls pre-orders, selling quite a few autographed copies at double cover directly to the public. Yes, every publisher with a web presence utilizes public pre-orders, but I doubt they'd use them to the extent Top Shelf did with Lost Girls. I suspect a lot of the money from that promotion went to paying the printer for the first run.Yes, but if you think that Top Shelf's focus is outside the DM, let me quote something (http://scottking.info/blog4/2006/10/spx_changes_in_comics_publishi.html): "we definitely pick and chose what titles should go out to the mainstream world. I think there are a lot of cartoonist who come to us thinking they can get into the major chains, but really 1 to 3 books a year are all we take to the book stores."

[Papergirl]

Well you know who is *my* scapegoat? The Amish.
The Amish unleashed Olney on the world?!

:eek:

~Bev

[NatGertler]

Or how 'bout putting an ad in Rolling Stone or Spin? Expensive? Probably. But the potential payoff from a demographic that doesn't necessarily look down its nose at comics could be huge, if so many powerful people in the industry didn't seem bent on maintaining their big-fish-in-a-small-pond status.I can't speak to Spin, but DC has advertised in Rolling Stone in the past. However, it is better when they can reach out to the readership through editorial recommendation. Readers of Rolling Stone got to read a strongly positive review of Absolute Sandman Volume 1, for example, and got to see The Dark Knight Strikes Again listed as the "Hot" comeback.

[wishlish]

We should note that there's a difference between dealing with Diamond Comics Distributors, dealing with the direct market, and selling through comic book stores. I can't speak to Fantagraphics (who I know represent themselves as doing a small portion of their business through the comic shops), but D&Q sells directly to comic shops. And the retailers that do big business in indy squarebound material are apt to order through bookstore distributors as well, even for books from publishers which are available through Diamond.
They don't? Archie gets a small portion oftheir sales through the DM... but Diamond Book Distribution is their distributor. If you look at DBD's client list (http://www.diamondbookdistributors.com/clients.asp) (although I believe this one is a bit dated), I see a lot of companies that don't seem to have that much DM distribution nor deal in the primary genres. If you're a prose book publisher that is adding a few graphic novels to your catalog, then no, you're not likely to switch your distribution agreement over to DBD.
There are always possibilities for aiming a book outside the DM; someone earlier noted that Olney had claimed to have a PX distribution deal, which would not depend on Diamond. There have been various other deals at various times which have allowed projects to do without Diamond; I know I wrote some material for a profitable project that was a Wal-Mart exclusive, there have been comics that have sold primarily or solely at race tracks, and so forth. There are other models out there... which does not mean that I assume that Rick actually had anything in place.

Yes, but if you think that Top Shelf's focus is outside the DM, let me quote something (http://scottking.info/blog4/2006/10/spx_changes_in_comics_publishi.html): "we definitely pick and chose what titles should go out to the mainstream world. I think there are a lot of cartoonist who come to us thinking they can get into the major chains, but really 1 to 3 books a year are all we take to the book stores."

Man, more logic and facts. Don't you realize this is the Rick Olney thread?

The argument I was trying to make was that publishers specializing in non-genre material don't have to depend on Diamond Comics Distributors for the bulk of their revenue, where a genre-oriented publisher does depend on DCD. Non-genre publishers who have signed an exclusive agreement with Diamond Book Distribution (and now I'm distinguishing the two) obviously do depend on Diamond (the company as a whole) to take their products to market. But I think you've shot my argument down as a blanket statement, so I concede defeat.

And it wasn't the true point I was really gettin at. I'm still rolling my eyeballs at Olney's beliefe that he could make his project successful without Diamond. (How he thought he could make the project successful with 40K in invoices on one book is another matter. How he thought he could make the project successful by not paying anyone is another matter best left to attorneys and court-appointed shrinks.)

What's a PX agreement?

I do know that comics can be successful without Diamond. There's webcomic economic models which work for some, and POD setups can work for the right project. I used to love DJ Coffman's Yirmumah, and he not only sold memberships, but also created books using POD and selling them directly to the audience. It worked for him, which allowed him to work full-time in comics. That led to his new gig, Hero By Night, which I don't like as much, but which I wish him all the success in the world.

Any more books you want to plug, Nat? Hey, you've got a captive audience...

[Danny Donovan]

The Amish unleashed Olney on the world?!

:eek:

~Bev


Yes! you don't see any of them coming online to refute it do you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvC5pZnPb0Q

[JamesRitcheyIII]

Well James, I am glad Mr. Donovan got you on MMC or I woudln't had met either of you or known about Radio-Free. Remember those great GA discussions we had there?
Again I thank Danny not RO.

Abso-tively! I met some of the finest individuals, creators in the Indies and collectors alike, as I'm likely to--many--like you, Doc--along with JoeZ, 'Other Danny', Chuck Rowles and Donald Jackson, I consider friends.

I DO especially miss either completely humiliating or tearing Sam Catalino a new one every couple of days though, and having Rick either edit or delete the whole thread! On politics, it was invariably me against them, with Rick losing his cool at being cornered in his 'logic' almost constantly. Ah, the good times...

[Danny Donovan]

There are always possibilities for aiming a book outside the DM; someone earlier noted that Olney had claimed to have a PX distribution deal, which would not depend on Diamond. There have been various other deals at various times which have allowed projects to do without Diamond; I know I wrote some material for a profitable project that was a Wal-Mart exclusive, there have been comics that have sold primarily or solely at race tracks, and so forth. There are other models out there... which does not mean that I assume that Rick actually had anything in place.

I know he asked me a hell of a lot of questions (that one who had dealt with this before wouldn't) when I was posting the news about getting the iHero Entertainment (now defunct) magazine Cyber Age Adventures on the newsstand.