PDA

View Full Version : Jail time for German gamers?



BlairH
12-14-2006, 03:36 PM
http://au.gamespot.com/news/2006/12/12/news_6163059.html?sid=6163059

Shocking! Absolutely shocking!

hoffmandu
12-14-2006, 03:42 PM
http://au.gamespot.com/news/2006/12/12/news_6163059.html?sid=6163059

Shocking! Absolutely shocking!

Silly Germans..........they definitely topped out with BMW. No violence against human looking targets..........PSSSHHHH! What else is there?

BlairH
12-14-2006, 03:44 PM
Given the fact that the human looking targets in question don't actually exist in real life, and the violence is imaginary violence. The proposed ban is bordering dangerously on "thought crime!" territory.

Serik
12-14-2006, 03:49 PM
Ok, censoring swastikas is understandable I guess, but saying that killing zombies approximates violent acts against people? The zombies are already dead...oh, and they're friggn' made up creatures.

Let's say that this law passes. Who, or what, will German lawmakers blame the next time a demented kid shoots up his school?

Perry Holley
12-14-2006, 04:35 PM
Phrozen, this board has rules against using profanity. Don't do it again.

BlairH
12-14-2006, 05:06 PM
Ok, censoring swastikas is understandable I guess,
No it's not.

Censorship of history (and censorship in general) only leads to very bad things.

EDIT: Ha! How appropriate! It slipped my mind that somebody had just been warned for swearing, honestly Guv!

Jmacq1
12-14-2006, 05:10 PM
Yeah, from (admittedly) what little I know of the laws in question, Germany's zeal to censor all references to Nazism borders on an attempt to make the whole world forget it ever happened. :p

I don't even think Nazi stuff can be shown in its' actual historical context in Germany, but anyone who might know more feel free to correct me.

Michael P
12-14-2006, 05:12 PM
Dear Germany,

Please stop. We know you feel bad. We know you're sorry. We don't think you're all murderous scumbags. It's okay if you have the violent video games. We have them too.

Come, play with us. We'll let you be Sub-Zero.

Sincerely,

Rest Of The World

Serik
12-14-2006, 05:16 PM
Gamespot's article says Nazi symbols can be used for art and educational purposes. The journalistic credentials of Gamespot notwithstanding, who in Germany decides if videogames are art?

I support unrestricted free speech here, but I'm not going to chastise the German gov't for banning swastikas from videogames. They have a unique viewpoint on the issue and I feel out of place debating the merits of it.

Mike Pothier
12-14-2006, 05:57 PM
Nein! Nein!

Ah, I mean NO! NO! Don't deny my gaming brethren their fix.

In other news, Jack Thompson woke up with a massive woody.

Chevan
12-14-2006, 07:13 PM
Seeing as most video games have a decidedly bipedal bias, I think Germany just banned eight out of every ten games.

Agent Helix
12-14-2006, 07:18 PM
Germany is a bunch of hippie peaceniks.

Who knew?

Alex
12-15-2006, 12:10 AM
Dear Germany,

Please stop. We know you feel bad. We know you're sorry. We don't think you're all murderous scumbags. It's okay if you have the violent video games. We have them too.

Come, play with us. We'll let you be Sub-Zero.

Sincerely,

Rest Of The World

Whatever, im not letting some kraut nazi jerk be sub zero.

Draconomicon
12-15-2006, 07:21 AM
No it's not.

Censorship of history (and censorship in general) only leads to very bad things.

*sighs*
Its *not* censorship.
You cant even watch TV without stumbling over one or another report about the holocaust.
You can talk about it alright. You can watch documentaries alright as well. Its just not allowed to use it in a way that could desensitize the german public to the meaning of the Nazi Swastika and what Nazis did. That is why there are harsh laws dealing with the use of such here.


Yeah, from (admittedly) what little I know of the laws in question, Germany's zeal to censor all references to Nazism borders on an attempt to make the whole world forget it ever happened. :p

I don't even think Nazi stuff can be shown in its' actual historical context in Germany, but anyone who might know more feel free to correct me.

I am German.
Ive been 4 years in elementary school, 5 years in high school and 2 years in business school. Ive had history classes for at least 8 of those years (yeah, even in business school...) and 6 of them dealt mainly with World War 2, the Nazis and what else was going on around them. Trust me, if there is something that does NOT happen its that we try to forget it. In fact, nothing could be further away from the truth.

Consider yourself corrected, and having been 100% wrong.
It sure is nice that people still think BAD of us! :(


The proposed legislation comes on the heels of a shooting on November 20 where an 18-year-old student went on a shooting rampage and wounded six people in his school before killing himself. Backers of the bill also point to the 2002 Erfurt massacre where another German student shot 13 people, according to the paper. Both incidents have been blamed in the media on violent games, and much has been written about the two shooters' fascination with games such as Half-Life: Counter-Strike.

It might be hard to understand, but such events are not regularly happening here, and therefore it pretty much disturbed Germany as a whole.
What you guys might 'not' know is the fact that shortly after this, there was a HUGE amount of people trying to 'mimic' this guy. Suddenly, all over Germany, letters would be sent to schools, threatening to blow them up, there were threats issued online by people thinking its 'cute' and such. Heck one guy confessed he only sent a threat to his school so his Girlfriend has the next day off and can spend time with him. Not to mention that suddenly a lot people started to glorificate that guy, who was evidently not quite right in his head, going by the letter he wrote just before he committed the killings.

I know you don't live here, and therefore you cant understand what might have started the whole idea that this legislation might be a good idea, hell, I hope it gets shot down as quick as possible, but its understandable if from one day to the next it seems like the whole country is going crazy and everyone has to be afraid for their live.



Dear Germany,

Please stop. We know you feel bad. We know you're sorry. We don't think you're all murderous scumbags. It's okay if you have the violent video games. We have them too.

Come, play with us. We'll let you be Sub-Zero.

Sincerely,

Rest Of The World

Not a chance.
Definetly not in my lifetime, and I actually consider that a good thing.
We cannot let go of that and we shouldn't. It needs to be remembered, so we can see how things should never be again, anywhere.

Donald M.
12-15-2006, 07:34 AM
It might be hard to understand, but such events are not regularly happening here, and therefore it pretty much disturbed Germany as a whole.
What you guys might 'not' know is the fact that shortly after this, there was a HUGE amount of people trying to 'mimic' this guy. Suddenly, all over Germany, letters would be sent to schools, threatening to blow them up, there were threats issued online by people thinking its 'cute' and such. Heck one guy confessed he only sent a threat to his school so his Girlfriend has the next day off and can spend time with him. Not to mention that suddenly a lot people started to glorificate that guy, who was evidently not quite right in his head, going by the letter he wrote just before he committed the killings.

I know you don't live here, and therefore you cant understand what might have started the whole idea that this legislation might be a good idea, hell, I hope it gets shot down as quick as possible, but its understandable if from one day to the next it seems like the whole country is going crazy and everyone has to be afraid for their live.


So you're saying Germany is entitled to overreact stupidly to school violence because it doesn't happen there as often? Please. Germany is not unique in its reaction to school violence. It's not something you get used to however much or however little it happens. Every time it happens it's a tragedy. Every time it happens we usually learn after the fact that there were warning signs and it could have been prevented had someone bothered to notice. Every time it happens, someone inevitably blames it on video games.

The reaction is understandable, but no, not a single person has to be afraid for their lives because violent video games are out there. Or even because, and this is the real problem, disturbed people are out there. Live your life and don't try to regulate the lives of others. For every gamer who plays Doom or whatever and goes out and shoots up a school, there are millions who never will, which kind of blows a hole in any theory of a connection between games and violence.



Not a chance.
Definetly not in my lifetime, and I actually consider that a good thing.
We cannot let go of that and we shouldn't. It needs to be remembered, so we can see how things should never be again, anywhere.

So . . . what . . . you hope there are never any violent video games in Germany in your lifetime because it will bring about the Fourth Reich? I'm a little confused.

It's not like there are games out there that glorify the Holocaust. At least, none that any sane person would want to play.

Draconomicon
12-15-2006, 07:56 AM
So you're saying Germany is entitled to overreact stupidly to school violence because it doesn't happen there as often? Please. Germany is not unique in its reaction to school violence. It's not something you get used to however much or however little it happens. Every time it happens it's a tragedy. Every time it happens we usually learn after the fact that there were warning signs and it could have been prevented had someone bothered to notice. Every time it happens, someone inevitably blames it on video games.

Overreact?
Maybe.
Stupidly?
No.
Seriously, I can see you dont understand what kind of effect those things have here. We usualy dont have such things happening here, and ESPECIALLY not followed up by a wave of dozens of people trying to scare the public even more with stupid 'pranks' (or so I hope) which just deepens the resentment and blaming on Videogames.
The only ones who have to be blamed for this violent reaction of the soccer moms and the government are those idiots who thought it was 'cool' to go into random FPS (Mostly actually counterstrike) and blurr off about how they will go and kill a dozen people in 'insert school name', which is WHAT happened.

Of course a scapegoat is needed. Its always like that.
There were 'comics' which seduced the youth, there was the 'devils music' Rock'n'roll, there was TV, movies, etc. Its every decade something else that will be used as an excuse. Its hardly something new. I never said it is, or that the attack on Games and their players is justificated. I simply say the backlash has come BECAUSE there were gamers who found it funny to mimic that guys actions, and pull this shit.



The reaction is understandable, but no, not a single person has to be afraid for their lives because violent video games are out there. Or even because, and this is the real problem, disturbed people are out there. Live your life and don't try to regulate the lives of others. For every gamer who plays Doom or whatever and goes out and shoots up a school, there are millions who never will, which kind of blows a hole in any theory of a connection between games and violence.

Of course people shouldnt be afraid for their lives because there are violent games out there. I never said they should. No idea why you think I did. I also agree that Videogames are not to blamed for people who are bonkers and go batshit insane and on a killing spree. Those were already mentally disturbed before they played Doom or Teletubbies online. You're preaching to the choir here.

What you dont seem to understand is what dimensions this has taken simply because some people started to glorificate that killer and went about mimicking him ENOUGH that the public turned its eye towards the games.
I am a gamer myself. I often play Wolvenstein: Enemy Territory. I played Unreal Tournament and UT 2004, etc, etc, etc, but that doesnt mean the gamers are innocent here. They had to play the HARD MAN and do stupid stuff, and now it comes back to bite em in the ass. And all of us have to endure this.

I do not think violent games should be taken out of hands of adults. Its my own damn right to decide what I want to play, but I understand 'WHY' this happened. Unfortunately, because of a few stupid individuals, all of us have to pay.



So . . . what . . . you hope there are never any violent video games in Germany in your lifetime because it will bring about the Fourth Reich? I'm a little confused.

Again you dont seem to understand.
That was directed to Michaels "Please stop".
There wont ever be a time when the Holocaust and WW2 will be forgotten and that is how it should be. If it makes my Government more cautious, then ok, I can deal with that. I do not have to be "one side or the other" here, and in regards to this. Just because I like playing violent games doesnt mean I have to dislike that my Government is trying to deal with the past by making sure we dont get desensitized. If I dont like it, I have the right to vote for another party in a few years, and will do so.

For the record: I do think its a terrible overreaction and it does piss me off that I will have an even harder time getting my hands on those games I *want*, but m not just shifting the blame on the Government or on the people who react like this because a few dozen stupid brats thought it was cool to play copycat.



It's not like there are games out there that glorify the Holocaust. At least, none that any sane person would want to play.

No idea.
I never went out of my way to search for any such game.

Donald M.
12-15-2006, 08:10 AM
I do not think violent games should be taken out of hands of adults. Its my own damn right to decide what I want to play, but I understand 'WHY' this happened. Unfortunately, because of a few stupid individuals, all of us have to pay.


Exactly. The rest of what you posted about my not understanding how these things effect people in Germany is ridiculous. I'm sorry, but it is. The same thing happens over here, the only difference is the United States is a lot bigger and has no existing ban on violent games.



That was directed to Michaels "Please stop".


And Michael's "Please Stop" was directed at the banning of violent video games, nothing else.

Michael P
12-15-2006, 08:30 AM
Not a chance.
Definetly not in my lifetime, and I actually consider that a good thing.
We cannot let go of that and we shouldn't. It needs to be remembered, so we can see how things should never be again, anywhere.

There's a difference between remembrance and obsession.

Draconomicon
12-15-2006, 08:31 AM
Exactly. The rest of what you posted about my not understanding how these things effect people in Germany is ridiculous. I'm sorry, but it is. The same thing happens over here, the only difference is the United States is a lot bigger and has no existing ban on violent games.



And Michael's "Please Stop" was directed at the banning of violent video games, nothing else.
Believe what you want.
I do not think you truly wanted a honest point of view of someone who lives here as long as it runs contrary to what you think how things should be, or you wouldnt have brushed away extensive explanations like you did.
Whatever then.

Draconomicon
12-15-2006, 08:34 AM
There's a difference between remembrance and obsession.
That is true, and I think it will calm down to where we will be in a healthy equilibrium regarding our past, but we are not there yet.
In fact, we are on the way there with the ongoing globalisation and internet communication, but it needs more time.
It just takes time...

BlairH
12-15-2006, 09:51 AM
Its my own damn right to decide what I want to play
Damn right!


but I understand 'WHY' this happened. Unfortunately, because of a few stupid individuals, all of us have to pay.
No, you don't! Not if you can help it. Collective punishment is stupid, and I have faith that German gamers will let their legislatures know this.

Serik
12-15-2006, 10:44 AM
Does Germany censor other forms of media violence? Punishing people for playing violent games is only fair if you punish them for watching violent movies or TV shows. Or is videogame violence somehow worse?

But we all know that videogames are just the latest boogeyman (and terrorism for that matter).

Draconomicon
12-15-2006, 11:24 AM
Damn right!


No, you don't! Not if you can help it. Collective punishment is stupid, and I have faith that German gamers will let their legislatures know this.
Of course most will not like it and will protest against it, and I expect it to not go through, that is why I am not all O_o about it :)
Dogs that bark dont bite ;)

Donald M.
12-15-2006, 11:26 AM
Believe what you want.
I do not think you truly wanted a honest point of view of someone who lives here as long as it runs contrary to what you think how things should be, or you wouldnt have brushed away extensive explanations like you did.
Whatever then.

No. This insular attitude you seem to have that Germany's situation is unique to Germany because of its past is utter nonsense. I brushed away your explanation because rather than show me how different Germany is and why Germany's reaction is so different, it highlighted the similarities.

I believe we're not as different as you seem to want to think. I might be convinced otherwise, but I don't think you're the one to do it.

Draconomicon
12-15-2006, 11:28 AM
Does Germany censor other forms of media violence? Punishing people for playing violent games is only fair if you punish them for watching violent movies or TV shows. Or is videogame violence somehow worse?

But we all know that videogames are just the latest boogeyman (and terrorism for that matter).
We are easy on sex, but hard on violence.
So, yes, there are sometimes changes to movies that depict too much violence, or better said, too realistic violence and it can happen that they get somewhat cut or outright banned (The Evil Dead movies are banned here, for example).
Its just that currently "The Games did it!" is used as a scapegoat. It'll go by. Like with everything, sooner or later games will become accepted, like comics, TV, rock, etc before. But still there will be kept an eye on violence in every medium.
On the positive side, it totally rocked being a young male here.
Where else were you able to see commercials with dozens of sexy girls in full frontal nudity at 2 PM? :X (A few years ago there was a huge nudity craze in commericals and they were pretty much on TV all day long. That rawked!)

Sparda
12-15-2006, 12:23 PM
lol I was about to mention that Germany is way accepted on sex (especially those crazy german shizer video's "shudders") and yet bans violence. Hmmm can't say much about this though. As I can say, if sex is accepted into media and such, it does'nt hurt the people but violence, some loon will take it to serious.

I'd honestly like to go to germany to see how far they go in sex and other types of fetishes. Hell that would be fun :)

Genma:TheDestroyer
12-15-2006, 10:28 PM
lol I was about to mention that Germany is way accepted on sex (especially those crazy german shizer video's "shudders") and yet bans violence.

Heh, that is one of the issues where you can clearly see the difference between the two contries.


In America, you can have violence galore, and still be acceptable (I'm ignoring Jack Thompson and soccer moms).

But flash a breast, and they'll be on you in a heartbeat. At least, if you're a console game. PC games have gotten away with it for years.



Whereas in Germany, sex is fine. What you saw in that commercial, it wasn't a bratwurst.

But Tommy Vercetti doing a Scarface on someone? *Gasp*





So, now...which country has the perfect blend?

Donald M.
12-16-2006, 07:11 AM
So, now...which country has the perfect blend?

I'll take violent video games over random nudity in commercials, thanks. It's not like I have trouble finding naked people if that's what I wanna see.