View Full Version : The Wasp's status among the Mighty Avengers
Leogam
12-13-2006, 09:01 AM
When I think of Earths Mightiest Heroes I cant really Picture the wasp as one of them. She could get squashed of smacked to death in a fight, she's more of a liability in a fight. Having the ability to shrink to the size of an insect w/ some stinging blasts is not so mighty of a power, I think she's pretty useless in a fight what do all of you think?
When I think of Earths Mightiest Heroes I cant really Picture the wasp as one of them. She could get squashed of smacked to death in a fight, she's more of a liability in a fight. Having the ability to shrink to the size of an insect w/ some stinging blasts is not so mighty of a power, I think she's pretty useless in a fight what do all of you think?
She's managed to hold her own against the entire X-Men team before. People sell her short, but she's hardly what I would call a liability.
And powers aside, similiar to Captain America she's an asset on the battle field even if she's not the most powerful. She's the number 2 field leader on the Avengers next to Cap, and that arguably makes her one of the top field leaders in Marvel period.
Atom_basher
12-13-2006, 11:15 AM
i dont see how you can say she is a liability but black widow isn't. shrinking and energy lasts are actually a really good ability because she is really hard to keep track of in a fight, and she can go in your ear and blast the heck outta you
Wasp is a resourceful leader. I think underestimating her size simply by her powers is indeed selling her short. Chris Claremont in Marvel Team-Up & Roger Stern in The Avengers proved Wasp carries her own weight on the team...
Jmacq1
12-13-2006, 12:02 PM
It's also worth noting that Jan actually gets stronger and more durable when she shrinks. She's hardly as "helpless" or delicate as she might appear.
Though the whole "second best field leader" bit is conveniently being ignored since it seems Ms. Marvel will be the leader of the team.
No surprise really, given who's writing.
Haunt
12-13-2006, 02:27 PM
for starters, Jan can also grow in size. secondly, if ant-man can punch a hole in someone's neck with only his regular strength, imagine what Jan could do with her enhanced strength.
Mikl C
12-13-2006, 03:43 PM
I <33333333333333 Wasp. She should be leading! Much as I'm looking forward to Carol having a go.
Michael P
12-13-2006, 03:56 PM
I <33333333333333 Wasp. She should be leading! Much as I'm looking forward to Carol having a go.
*Carol's* gonna be in charge? I would have thought Tony would be calling the shots.
Regardless, Jan'll make a good deputy.
Deus ex Chris
12-13-2006, 06:12 PM
I don't really care for the Wasp. I don't really dig size-changing powers, but more importantly, I've never read a portrayal of Jan that I enjoyed. The whole flighty socialite one minute and battle-hardened leader the next doesn't cut it for me, and I'm actually glad Carol seems to be in charge. In my mind, it makes so much more sense.
The M.E.
12-13-2006, 07:08 PM
I'm just glad the Wasp will be in a book. As an old-school fan of the Avengers whose just recently gotten back into comics, I was really sad to see that the vast majority of my old faves had been replaced by Wolverine, Luke Cage, Ronin, etc. Bendis' writing doesn't really do it for me, but I'm digging the line-up of the new team and will give it a chance. Wasp is great because she's an awesome leader (check out the mid 200's of the first run), but she can also be on the team without having to be leader. Most of the other team leaders have a difficult time being believable as taking orders from someone else. I'm hard pressed to think that Ms. Marvel could lead over Captain America, and even Iron Man for that matter, but I can see Janet taking orders while still contributing to the team's decisions. Plus, the Wasp's outfit changes keep it interesting, lol. I'm glad Cho said that will continue.
Omega Alpha
12-13-2006, 07:28 PM
I think that precisely because people think that she's useless, she can surprise, because many villains underrate her.
Carol in charge doesn't make any sense to me at all.
Between Black Widow, Iron Man, and Wasp you have 3 heroes with far more leadership experience than Carol (who arguably is one of the biggest screw ups in Avengers history).
Nothing personal against Carol, but I don't see the logic in just deciding to make her a field leader over others with more experience doing it. What, did they just pull Carol's name out of a hat one day? Unless the others simply didn't want it (and that's believable at least for Black Widow, as I'm a bit suprised she's even on the Avengers unless she's a spy for Fury or something).
That still doesn't explain Wasp though. She's pretty much been established as the number 2 Avenger field leader behind Cap.
Will.S
12-13-2006, 08:32 PM
Nothing personal against Carol, but I don't see the logic in just deciding to make her a field leader over others with more experience doing it. What, did they just pull Carol's name out of a hat one day? Unless the others simply didn't want it (and that's believable at least for Black Widow, as I'm a bit suprised she's even on the Avengers unless she's a spy for Fury or something).
While you have a point regarding Black Widow and Wasp given their respective leadership backrounds, I think Civil War seems to be setting up that leadership push for Ms. Marvel as well as the solicitation covers hinting at it with the whole Iron Man helmet in her hand.
I honestly would have preferred for Stark as Iron Man to be the leader in this group but IM seems to be another person altogether (I'm already dreading it to be Maria Hill). Still, I think Carol might be able to pull it off just using her title as an example so we'll see how it goes.
Haunt
12-13-2006, 08:39 PM
Carol in charge doesn't make any sense to me at all.
Between Black Widow, Iron Man, and Wasp you have 3 heroes with far more leadership experience than Carol (who arguably is one of the biggest screw ups in Avengers history).
Nothing personal against Carol, but I don't see the logic in just deciding to make her a field leader over others with more experience doing it. What, did they just pull Carol's name out of a hat one day? Unless the others simply didn't want it (and that's believable at least for Black Widow, as I'm a bit suprised she's even on the Avengers unless she's a spy for Fury or something).
That still doesn't explain Wasp though. She's pretty much been established as the number 2 Avenger field leader behind Cap.
Jan's flighty like that. maybe she's too busy with her design business.
Omega Alpha
12-13-2006, 08:50 PM
Maybe Carol was chosen because she's with the military, seems like the only reason to me.
Anyway, it has potential for good stories, if her authority is questioned quite often by the more experienced people on the team. And her getting some tips from Cap. or Cyke wouldn't hurt.
Sam T.
12-13-2006, 08:52 PM
I'm really glad to finally see Wasp back in the Avengers...and that artwork doesn't hurt either!
While you have a point regarding Black Widow and Wasp given their respective leadership backrounds, I think Civil War seems to be setting up that leadership push for Ms. Marvel as well as the solicitation covers hinting at it with the whole Iron Man helmet in her hand.
I honestly would have preferred for Stark as Iron Man to be the leader in this group but IM seems to be another person altogether (I'm already dreading it to be Maria Hill). Still, I think Carol might be able to pull it off just using her title as an example so we'll see how it goes.
It's not that I don't think Carol can pull it off... it's just that I don't see why she'd be first choice.
Rogue for example has proven herself to be a reasonably competent X-Men field leader. But I would be suprised seeing her call the shots if Cyclops was around.
I guess this is what happens when you get your own series. Your stock sort of rises.
Carol in charge doesn't make any sense to me at all.
Between Black Widow, Iron Man, and Wasp you have 3 heroes with far more leadership experience than Carol (who arguably is one of the biggest screw ups in Avengers history).
Nothing personal against Carol, but I don't see the logic in just deciding to make her a field leader over others with more experience doing it. What, did they just pull Carol's name out of a hat one day? Unless the others simply didn't want it (and that's believable at least for Black Widow, as I'm a bit suprised she's even on the Avengers unless she's a spy for Fury or something).
That still doesn't explain Wasp though. She's pretty much been established as the number 2 Avenger field leader behind Cap.
Quoted for truth. Like...does Tony want these Avengers to fail or something? I can accept it if there's a good reason behind it. I also don't want to see Ms Marvel look bad as a leader, but to pick her over more qualified leaders is more than a bit curious.
the4thpip
12-14-2006, 02:40 AM
*Carol's* gonna be in charge? I would have thought Tony would be calling the shots.
We know Iron Man will be on that team, but will Tony be?
Edit: See that I was beaten to that.
Haunt
12-14-2006, 08:21 AM
Quoted for truth. Like...does Tony want these Avengers to fail or something? I can accept it if there's a good reason behind it. I also don't want to see Ms Marvel look bad as a leader, but to pick her over more qualified leaders is more than a bit curious.
maybe she's sharing leadership. as was mentioned, there are at least 2 other former leaders on the team.
Deus ex Chris
12-14-2006, 08:21 AM
Quoted for truth. Like...does Tony want these Avengers to fail or something? I can accept it if there's a good reason behind it. I also don't want to see Ms Marvel look bad as a leader, but to pick her over more qualified leaders is more than a bit curious.
What makes Wasp more qualified? Being a fashion designer? Ok, so she led the Avengers for a significant amount of their history, but Carol has extensive military training and experience with military command, along with her extensive experience as a super-hero and a member of the Avengers. I think it's a perfect fit.
Jmacq1
12-14-2006, 08:43 AM
Yeah, IIRC she was an Air Force Colonel. You don't generally reach that rank without -some- leadership experience. And in the post Civil-War "Superheroes are now paramilitary operatives of SHIELD" era that experience probably works pretty well.
Plus I think Tony's the one giving the orders from "on high" (particularly if he's head of SHIELD after "Civil War"), and he's pretty tight with Carol thanks to the whole "both recovering alcoholics" thing.
And he may think he can "control" her more easily than Natasha or Janet, which would be in keeping with her current characterization.
Mikl C
12-14-2006, 08:45 AM
I don't really care for the Wasp. I don't really dig size-changing powers, but more importantly, I've never read a portrayal of Jan that I enjoyed. The whole flighty socialite one minute and battle-hardened leader the next doesn't cut it for me, and I'm actually glad Carol seems to be in charge. In my mind, it makes so much more sense.
Have you read Avengers Forever? That is what most endeared me to Jan.
Psyco panda
12-14-2006, 08:53 AM
I'm glad shes on the team simply for the variety in powers. Everyone else seems to be superstrong/invulnerable/x power. I'm glad theres someone whos not.
Deus ex Chris
12-14-2006, 08:54 AM
Have you read Avengers Forever? That is what most endeared me to Jan.
I read some of it, but I just couldn't get into the story.
Mikl C
12-14-2006, 09:03 AM
I read some of it, but I just couldn't get into the story.
Hm. It's a bit involved yeh, but Jan kicks ass as leader. :)
Deus ex Chris
12-14-2006, 09:13 AM
Hm. It's a bit involved yeh, but Jan kicks ass as leader. :)
I don't mind involved stories. I just didn't like that one. ;)
What makes Wasp more qualified? Being a fashion designer? Ok, so she led the Avengers for a significant amount of their history, but Carol has extensive military training and experience with military command, along with her extensive experience as a super-hero and a member of the Avengers. I think it's a perfect fit.
Hiaving military training and experience doesn't necessarily make you a good Avengers field leader. Being a good Avengers field leader makes you a good Avengers field leader. Wasp has already proven that she not only can do the job, but can do it better than anyone other than Cap.
Really, Carol has a questionable track record just being a member of the team, let alone leading it. I'm not arguing that she can't do the job mind you... just questioning the rationale of her being put in charge ahead of Wasp, Black Widown, and Iron Man.
Wasp is a perfect fit... she's proven it. Carol... we don't know yet. Maybe.
mattbib
12-14-2006, 11:26 AM
Hiaving military training and experience doesn't necessarily make you a good Avengers field leader. Being a good Avengers field leader makes you a good Avengers field leader. Wasp has already proven that she not only can do the job, but can do it better than anyone other than Cap.
Really, Carol has a questionable track record just being a member of the team, let alone leading it. I'm not arguing that she can't do the job mind you... just questioning the rationale of her being put in charge ahead of Wasp, Black Widown, and Iron Man.
Wasp is a perfect fit... she's proven it. Carol... we don't know yet. Maybe.
Well, the simplest explanation is that Jan doesn't want to lead right now. Relatively speaking, in the past five years or so (her time) she's dealt with the Beyonder, the Masters' siege of the mansion, both the Kang and Destiny Wars, and most recently the Stranger. I'd easily believe she'd be happier just being a member; though I wouldn't be surprised, even if she ISN'T the leader, if she doesn't butt heads with whoever IS the leader; naturally barking out orders and taking charge and all that.
BigDuke
12-14-2006, 12:34 PM
I can think of a couple rationales for having Carol in charge. The biggest being that she is most likely of the bunch to a)have some leadership skill and b)be willing to play by the government's rules. I can see SHIELD/Tony wanting someone in place who can cowboy up and do as their told instead of deciding to apply their own values.
I can think of a couple rationales for having Carol in charge. The biggest being that she is most likely of the bunch to a)have some leadership skill and b)be willing to play by the government's rules. I can see SHIELD/Tony wanting someone in place who can cowboy up and do as their told instead of deciding to apply their own values.
Well, that certainly sounds more like Carol than Wasp.
Haunt
12-14-2006, 02:21 PM
anyone want to make bets on which Avenger will be killed next? my money's on the Wasp. she has at least 3 strikes against her.
1) she's an Avenger founder but one of the expendable founders
2) she's part of the Pym legacy while no longer being a romantic interest
3) she's a vulnerable individual on a team stacked with invulnerable powerhouses
and just to add a 4th strike...revamped Ultron.
Captain Exaggeration
12-14-2006, 03:15 PM
anyone want to make bets on which Avenger will be killed next? my money's on the Wasp. she has at least 3 strikes against her.
1) she's an Avenger founder but one of the expendable founders
2) she's part of the Pym legacy while no longer being a romantic interest
3) she's a vulnerable individual on a team stacked with invulnerable powerhouses
and just to add a 4th strike...revamped Ultron.
What makes you think Ultron is the villain being revamped? Did I miss something?
Jmacq1
12-14-2006, 05:05 PM
Yeah, I mean it's not like Ultron needed a revamping to be a threat. I was thinking it'd be someone else, personally. Not sure who....
But then again, I guess Ultron gets "revamped" semi-frequently as it is.
Yeah, I mean it's not like Ultron needed a revamping to be a threat. I was thinking it'd be someone else, personally. Not sure who....
But then again, I guess Ultron gets "revamped" semi-frequently as it is.
Ultron getting a revamp is almost a given. He gets one everytime he decides to gives himself a new number. Plus, if he plans on tackling the Mighty Avengers he'll probably have to think of some upgrades that will keep him from getting chucked into the sun.
sookibong
12-16-2006, 07:41 PM
It really pisses me off that the only action Wasp ever seems to get is a panel showing the villain flinching as she shoots them in the face. Or how she often gets restrained in a manner that you would restrain an actual bug. Did anyone ever read "The Last Avengers Story" from the 90's where she blows Kang's brains out with two stings right through his eyes? Good stuff.
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