Should Comic Fans Be Good?

[Phrozen]

These are the midnight ramblings of one fan who wonders if comics have passed him by a few years after he got back into the genre. So please excuse any mistakes grammatical or otherwise. I didn't know where to post it and here seems like the best place.

Are we as comic fans to accepting? Are we as comic fans to scared to demand better? Have we become to accostumed to gore and depravity that we are not offended when writers bring the beloved characters of our youth into the gutter? Are we to dedicated to writers and artists that any thing they do to a character is excused? Are we so shamlessly devoted to comic companies that they can lie to us, they can delay products, they can water down the amount of story in a book and we still buy it like we are addicted.

I would say yes. Look what has come out in the past half decade. At the turn of the century it seemed that the big two companies were heading in the right direction. They had survived the speculation crash barely and quality seemed to be in an upswing in general. Then it happened. It was the Ultimates, a newer more modern day take on the Avengers. To show us that this wasn't the old Avengers we had Hulk be a raging pervet and cannibal. Hank Pym went from a person who hit his wife once and regreted it for the rest of his life to a chronic abuser. Sure, there was content like this in Vertigo and Wildstorm but the Ultimates brought it to the mainstream and it sold like hotcakes.

DC and the rest of Marvel saw this and copied. DC came out with Identity Crisis where we learned that Dr. Light was a rapist, The JLA mind wiped on of their friends, and Jean Loring was a psychotic killer. Superman had a villian, Preus, that raped someone to death. Batman became a emotionally stunted sociopath. Spoiler was tortured to death and the whole DCU took a turn for the worse. This all ended up in Infinite Crisis which was supposed to cure the darkness that DC was going through. Nevermind that it was the same writers and editor that set the DCU on that path. Still, DC is not back to less dark place it was before Identity Crisis.

Marvel took much longer to get to that point but Civil War is heading in that direction quickly. Tony Stark seems to have steped right out of the Boys from Brazil. Before that we had the Scarlet Witch go suddenly crazy and kill Vision, who got stuck in a box rather then put back together, Hawkeye dying in one of the lamest way possible, and Magneto turning New York City into a concentration camp. Lets not forget to mention the Stamford and the stupidity of chargin Speedball for it and not going after Nitro, the real culprit.

These wouldn't be so bad except that we as comic fans are not giving DC or Marvel any reason to change. All of this stuff is selling and selling well. It seems we can't get enough sadistic violence and gore. We love it. DC and Marvel know that and every event is going to have more blood, more death, more heroes acting like jackasses.

The Ultimates another trend. Ultimates is notoriously a late comic. Even with a six issue lead, it couldn't get out on time every month. Is it to much to ask of a comic to come out monthly when it is advertised to come out monthly? Even with the huge delays Ultimates sold well. Marvel especially looked at this and thought it didn't matter how late something was, people will still buy it. The writers and artists noticed this also. Since they are probably not being paid on a pure issue basis, it suites them to be much less professional about getting work in on time. Since, we as fans are not punishing them for their unprofessional conduct, Marvel doesn't care if a book comes out on time or not.

With all these recent trends is it no wonder that comics continue to be a niche market? These trends will not change until we as fans give DC and Marvel reason to change them.

[stealthwise]

Yeah, that sounds about right. You've managed to summarize what's more or less wrong with superhero comics right now. For my own part, I've been dropping Marvel and DC titles like flies once I realized that the crossover events basically stink up the house.

And don't forget variant covers, those things completely suck. Seriously, there are great books like Nextwave being cancelled because people aren't willing to give it a shot, but there are guys buying two or three copies of crap like Supergirl because it's got different covers? Sickening.

[Joe Rice]

It should be pointed out, again, that you're not talking about comic books. You're talking about superhero comic books.

[Phrozen]

It should be pointed out, again, that you're not talking about comic books. You're talking about superhero comic books.

Yes, and the vast majority of comics sold are superhero comic books. The vast majority of comic fans buy superhero comic books, exclusively or not. The problem is that the big two are not going to change until the vast majority make them change.

[Joe Rice]

Yes, and the vast majority of comics sold are superhero comic books. The vast majority of comic fans buy superhero comic books, exclusively or not. The problem is that the big two are not going to change until the vast majority make them change.

The first sentence is only true when you add "in the direct market." The second sentence is problematic . . .what's a "fan"? What's the difference between a fan and a reader? Bone, Persepolis, Archie, and a bunch of indie books well outsell direct market books. Do their readers not count?

The problem with the big two, yes, is that they won't change until the vast majority of what few people buy their comics make them change.

[Aaron Kashtan]

I think many comics fans are not adventurous enough. They refuse to branch out from superhero comics to the many other kinds of comics that are available. They'd rather complain about the poor quality of superhero comics, than challenge their established preferences by reading other comics that are of high quality but don't feature superheroes.

[Ryan Day]

Marvel & DC both sell a majority of their product to the direct market. The direct market wants stuff like variant covers, event-driven stories, and "mature" superhero books. The direct market may or may not care about late books, but it's also the reason there are monthly books in the first place - it's pretty indifferent, if not hostile, to OGNs or anthologies; it's bizarrely fixated on price instead of value. It's not even about taking whatever Marvel & DC produces: Marvel puts out stuff like the Marvel Adventures line, Nextwave, Thing, She-Hulk, Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane, but no one buys it: They want Civil War instead.

I think you need to accept that superhero comics are going to be marketed to that niche, so what that audience wants is what you'll get. Marvel and DC both dabble in the "real world" from time to time (DC moreso), but neither is going to give up that core market that gives them a reliable readership which, in many cases, buys books out of habit as opposed to quality or enjoyment.

There are lots of other publishers creating books for a wider audience, and increasingly they're not even bothering with the direct market. That's the place to go for books that are friendlier to all ages and built around content instead of 1-in-50 covers and universe-changing events.

[Rob on the Job]

Many of the problems in the superhero direct-market field is, IMO, due to the demands of a monthly schedule.

Rather than have four Spider-Man monthly titles, why not have just one monthly title that is supplemented by a couple of 150-page graphic novels a year?

[Nitz the Bloody]

With all these recent trends is it no wonder that comics continue to be a niche market? These trends will not change until we as fans give DC and Marvel reason to change them.

No, the reasons comics continue to be a niche market involve poor distribution, expensive pricing, limited diversity, and a cultural reputation somewhere between pro wrestling and porn. How the Scarlet Witch is portrayed has nothing to do with the industry at large.

Also, I agree with everyone who's said that comic fans are too insular and need to branch out. Intellectual deprivation doesn't help anyone.

[Phrozen]

No, the reasons comics continue to be a niche market involve poor distribution, expensive pricing, limited diversity, and a cultural reputation somewhere between pro wrestling and porn. How the Scarlet Witch is portrayed has nothing to do with the industry at large.

Also, I agree with everyone who's said that comic fans are too insular and need to branch out. Intellectual deprivation doesn't help anyone.

Sure, those things do inhibit comics growing an audience and really the changes that need to be made to solve those problems will send most of the fanbase now into a hissy fit. Paper and ink quality needs to go down, writer and artists need to be cut, and the number of titles will have to shrink drastically.
Though unprofessionalism and content also contribute as well. You mentioned to very seeding industries in comparison with comics. The fact that those two were the ones that come to mind shows just how unprofessional the big two are, this isn't even taking into account indy publishers. ( Not saying all or even most indy publishers are unprofessional slobs or anything) First thing, the companies have to shape up and polish their image. That means we as fans either have to support titles we would not be embaressed to show to the younger members of our family.

As for branching out, I know that there are great comics that have nothing to do with superheroes or even the action/adventure genre but comics being partially a visual medium will always appeal to those that are looking for that genre. Even Shakespeares dramas had humor and action written into them to catch the attention of the audience because he was writing for a visual medium.

[Nitz the Bloody]

Sure, those things do inhibit comics growing an audience and really the changes that need to be made to solve those problems will send most of the fanbase now into a hissy fit. Paper and ink quality needs to go down, writer and artists need to be cut, and the number of titles will have to shrink drastically.
Though unprofessionalism and content also contribute as well. You mentioned to very seeding industries in comparison with comics. The fact that those two were the ones that come to mind shows just how unprofessional the big two are, this isn't even taking into account indy publishers. ( Not saying all or even most indy publishers are unprofessional slobs or anything) First thing, the companies have to shape up and polish their image. That means we as fans either have to support titles we would not be embaressed to show to the younger members of our family.

But you didn't anything whatsoever about professionalism in your original post ( aside from a comment on the Ultimates' delays, which strikes me as bizarre since you mentioned previously that you didn't care for the book ). You just rattled off a list of status quo changes to superhero comics that you, personally, found offensive. You're projecting your own sensibilities for hero comics as something the industry in general should follow, and that strikes me as something of an inability to see the forest for the trees.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to take anything about the comics industry that's said from someone with an avatar that shows extremely minor character Hawkeye saying " **** you, Bendis " with a grain of salt.


As for branching out, I know that there are great comics that have nothing to do with superheroes or even the action/adventure genre but comics being partially a visual medium will always appeal to those that are looking for that genre. Even Shakespeares dramas had humor and action written into them to catch the attention of the audience because he was writing for a visual medium.


I don't get this. Do you mean to say that because comics can do superheroes, they should continue to be dominated by superheroes?

[SKETCHSANCHEZ]

Theres other superhero comics out there that are good and are not by Marvel or DC.

For my money, Image has the best line from Invincible, to Bomb Queen to Battle Hymn. (Which I'm not sure is gonna continue, shame)

Of course those books can be violent at times (especially bomb queen) so that may not be what you're after but whenever I buy a superhero book (or trade) by image, I'm not disappointed.

[The Batman]

Hmm.

I think that there's two real problems with mainstream superhero comics fandom, aside from the general tendency to be unwillingly to experiment with non superhero or at least non-mainstream titles.

First, I don't know that the problem with comic fans is that they're too accepting, though I imagine that some of them might be, I think the problem instead is that for the most part they just might be too demanding. I don't know if these sorts of sentiments are new or if the internet is just giving them an outlet but I see fans who take things way too personally. There's a sense of ownership about the characters that seems to border on unhealthy and this tendency to react to things done with this or that character as though they were personal attacks. I get the feeling that sometimes that there's no creator that can do anything right unless they're doing exactly what the fans want. Part of this general trent towards being too demanding I see things like tying personal preferences to the health of the industry which was already mentioned above.

Tied to this is what I think is the second problem with mainstream superhero comics fandom and that's that there's no real way to know what they want. Partially this is because comics fandom, even superhero comics fandom is remarkably diverse. Sure you might be able to break it down into certain demographic trends but even within those trends what people want, expect, and care about is going to vary remarkably. That's why I'm only trying to talk in generalities here. Also, the internet - be it through blogs, message boards, or user groups - is a terrible way to try to figure out what people want. Going by what I've read on some messageboards I'm surprised that any book sells at all. I mean you see people complaining about a book being terrible and saying they don't read it, then complaining that it's late. Obviously not every place is like that, one of the things I love about CBR is that generally speaking that sort of craziness is the exception and not the rule but it's out there. When fans can't even figure out what they want I don't know how we can expect creators too.

[Michael P]

Some days, I think comic fans should be beaten.

[NickThompson]

First, I don't know that the problem with comic fans is that they're too accepting, though I imagine that some of them might be, I think the problem instead is that for the most part they just might be too demanding. I don't know if these sorts of sentiments are new or if the internet is just giving them an outlet but I see fans who take things way too personally. There's a sense of ownership about the characters that seems to border on unhealthy and this tendency to react to things done with this or that character as though they were personal attacks. I get the feeling that sometimes that there's no creator that can do anything right unless they're doing exactly what the fans want. Part of this general trent towards being too demanding I see things like tying personal preferences to the health of the industry which was already mentioned above.
I can see this. For example, recently they announced Dan Slott's big title is Avengers: The Initiative. We know who is writing it, who is drawing it and a vague premise. Already, people are complaining. "Oh is this it?". They haven't read it, yet already they know how it is? I remember similar with Young Avengers, you don't hear as much bitching now.

On a similar note with creators not being able to do anything right, the way how creators get treated online is the same. Fans will bitch, whine, lie and insinuate all sort of things about a creator, but if the creator does anything beyond smile politely people will act like they shot their pet or something. Mark Waid on Newsarama reguarding Steve Wacker springs to mind. It's sad that we have this potential for access to the people creating the things we read, and people use it to whine about them and then get offended because the creator doesn't agree with them.

[NickThompson]

The Ultimates another trend. Ultimates is notoriously a late comic. Even with a six issue lead, it couldn't get out on time every month. Is it to much to ask of a comic to come out monthly when it is advertised to come out monthly? Even with the huge delays Ultimates sold well. Marvel especially looked at this and thought it didn't matter how late something was, people will still buy it. The writers and artists noticed this also. Since they are probably not being paid on a pure issue basis, it suites them to be much less professional about getting work in on time. Since, we as fans are not punishing them for their unprofessional conduct, Marvel doesn't care if a book comes out on time or not.
Writers and artists generally get paid by the page. It does NOT suit them to not get many issues out.

[SKETCHSANCHEZ]

Hmm.

I think that there's two real problems with mainstream superhero comics fandom, aside from the general tendency to be unwillingly to experiment with non superhero or at least non-mainstream titles.

First, I don't know that the problem with comic fans is that they're too accepting, though I imagine that some of them might be, I think the problem instead is that for the most part they just might be too demanding. I don't know if these sorts of sentiments are new or if the internet is just giving them an outlet but I see fans who take things way too personally. There's a sense of ownership about the characters that seems to border on unhealthy and this tendency to react to things done with this or that character as though they were personal attacks. I get the feeling that sometimes that there's no creator that can do anything right unless they're doing exactly what the fans want. Part of this general trent towards being too demanding I see things like tying personal preferences to the health of the industry which was already mentioned above.

Tied to this is what I think is the second problem with mainstream superhero comics fandom and that's that there's no real way to know what they want. Partially this is because comics fandom, even superhero comics fandom is remarkably diverse. Sure you might be able to break it down into certain demographic trends but even within those trends what people want, expect, and care about is going to vary remarkably. That's why I'm only trying to talk in generalities here. Also, the internet - be it through blogs, message boards, or user groups - is a terrible way to try to figure out what people want. Going by what I've read on some messageboards I'm surprised that any book sells at all. I mean you see people complaining about a book being terrible and saying they don't read it, then complaining that it's late. Obviously not every place is like that, one of the things I love about CBR is that generally speaking that sort of craziness is the exception and not the rule but it's out there. When fans can't even figure out what they want I don't know how we can expect creators too.

This is a great post, I couldnt agree more.

[Bright-Raven]

TheBatman:
Going by what I've read on some message boards I'm surprised that any book sells at all. I mean you see people complaining about a book being terrible and saying they don't read it, then complaining that it's late. Obviously not every place is like that, one of the things I love about CBR is that generally speaking that sort of craziness is the exception and not the rule but it's out there. When fans can't even figure out what they want I don't know how we can expect creators to.

I see just as much of that sort of behavior here at CBR as any other site. Maybe it's not quite as vehement or rude, but it's definitely there. And I've been rather outspoken about it on other boards here lately.

I don't think many creators really concern themselves with what the fans "want". I know as a writer and artist, I concern myself with what my client wants, but not what readers say they want, per se. I try to tell the stories *I* want to tell, and if a publisher digs it and we move into a published work, great. Then, if you buy the work and you enjoyed it, cool. If you check out or buy the work and don't like it, I might listen to you tell me why, but ultimately it comes down to, "Sorry you didn't like it, but thanks for your input. Keep checking me out - maybe I'll do something more to your liking next time." There's not much else I or any other creator CAN say or do.

[karasu]

These are the midnight ramblings of one fan who wonders if comics have passed him by a few years after he got back into the genre. So please excuse any mistakes grammatical or otherwise. I didn't know where to post it and here seems like the best place.

Are we as comic fans to accepting? Are we as comic fans to scared to demand better? Have we become to accostumed to gore and depravity that we are not offended when writers bring the beloved characters of our youth into the gutter? Are we to dedicated to writers and artists that any thing they do to a character is excused? Are we so shamlessly devoted to comic companies that they can lie to us, they can delay products, they can water down the amount of story in a book and we still buy it like we are addicted.

I would say yes. Look what has come out in the past half decade. At the turn of the century it seemed that the big two companies were heading in the right direction. They had survived the speculation crash barely and quality seemed to be in an upswing in general. Then it happened. It was the Ultimates, a newer more modern day take on the Avengers. To show us that this wasn't the old Avengers we had Hulk be a raging pervet and cannibal. Hank Pym went from a person who hit his wife once and regreted it for the rest of his life to a chronic abuser. Sure, there was content like this in Vertigo and Wildstorm but the Ultimates brought it to the mainstream and it sold like hotcakes.

DC and the rest of Marvel saw this and copied. DC came out with Identity Crisis where we learned that Dr. Light was a rapist, The JLA mind wiped on of their friends, and Jean Loring was a psychotic killer. Superman had a villian, Preus, that raped someone to death. Batman became a emotionally stunted sociopath. Spoiler was tortured to death and the whole DCU took a turn for the worse. This all ended up in Infinite Crisis which was supposed to cure the darkness that DC was going through. Nevermind that it was the same writers and editor that set the DCU on that path. Still, DC is not back to less dark place it was before Identity Crisis.


I don't know man. I don't want the comics of my youth, I'm not a kid anymore. As an adult, I expect depravity from my villains. I expect my heroes to experience consequence and loss. I want fantastic feats in a relatively realistic world, not a complete wonderland afraid to accept the fact that the bad guys do kill, and try their hardest to hurt those close to you. Sometimes they win, other times no one does. To me, characters are interesting because they have layers and personalities tempered by their thoughts and experiences. "Icons" are dull because they're unaffected and about as deep as an eggshell.

The Hulk as lustful is no more perverse than what was written about Mr. Hyde in the 1800's. I'm not devoted to any company or talent, but I don't mind the changes you mentioned because to me, they often made the stories more resonant and compelling. Superheroes shouldn't only deal with bank robbers, robots, or aliens after some vague idea of world domination. Why shouldn't they go after the murders, rapists, and true dregs of society? Is it really that hard to believe that a scumbag(especially one who's literally been to hell) with the ability to turn invisible would use his ability to take advantage of women?


With all these recent trends is it no wonder that comics continue to be a niche market? These trends will not change until we as fans give DC and Marvel reason to change them.

I think comics are a "niche" simply because they're comic books. I doubt anything will ever change it. Every time they've tried to go after the mainstream audiences, the books have suffered immensely.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

As you get older and the world changes so does the aspect of Good vs Evil. What is a hero now ? How is he defined ? The moment things changed and these questions began to start was Frank Miller's " Dark Knight " in a way.

Dark Knight introduced us to a dark , grim rooted Batman who had gotten older. Miller is often the guy pointed to as starting the grim & gritty period but his work was pretty damn good and suited Batman. Yeah , Batman can be happy some days. But a lotta the time he exists in a dark lonely world of his own making.

Marvel and DC seeing that super hero grim and gritty tales were in started pushing that way. Some was decent and some was just awful. I don't think anyone like seeing Spiderman or Nova go in the grim & gritty direction and fans spit on it.

In Watchmen , Alan Moore writes a piece of dialogue where he discusses how the Comedian seemed to grow more edgy and cross the line as society got darker. That the Comedian was a reflection of dark and twisted times as society marches towards a nuclear showdown with Russia.

Its a different world than the golden age at DC/Marvel. Both companies seemingly have accepted that the heroes and villains reflect more of todays characteristics. That villains can't be 1 dimensional and have gotta be edgy enough to show real conflict with the hero.

[The Batman]

I can see this. For example, recently they announced Dan Slott's big title is Avengers: The Initiative. We know who is writing it, who is drawing it and a vague premise. Already, people are complaining. "Oh is this it?". They haven't read it, yet already they know how it is? I remember similar with Young Avengers, you don't hear as much bitching now.

On a similar note with creators not being able to do anything right, the way how creators get treated online is the same. Fans will bitch, whine, lie and insinuate all sort of things about a creator, but if the creator does anything beyond smile politely people will act like they shot their pet or something. Mark Waid on Newsarama reguarding Steve Wacker springs to mind. It's sad that we have this potential for access to the people creating the things we read, and people use it to whine about them and then get offended because the creator doesn't agree with them.


Well the internet gives people a degree of anonymity and a forum and one of the consequences of that is that some people are going to use it to trash other people, comic creators or otherwise, and I think that that's really too bad. Then again, I imagine creators were probably getting a fair bit of this before the internet when all their interaction with fans was through fanmail or at cons. I think this hostility comes from alot of places - jealousy, a general anti-social attitude, wanting to come off as cool and not a kiss-ass, genuine disagreement over the way a character should be handled, honest misunderstanding, a mistaken sense of ownership over a character and so on - and I agree it kinda suck. You might not like the way Judd Winick is writing Captain Marvel or how Bendis treated Hawkeye but they're still people and they still deserve a measure of consideration and respect.

Over on the DC Comics Messageboards, back in the day one fan accused Geoff Johns of ripping off one of her Captain Marvel/Shazam fanfics for a storyline in JSA and told everyone about it. Johns was still posting there at the time and pointed out that what had actually happened in the issue varied greatly from what she had described and beyond that, it was David Goyer and not him who had written the issue in question. Johns then offered to send the poster free copies of the comics in question so that she could see for herself that the story was different from hers and I think to show that there was no hard feelings. This poster then turned around and claimed to have never called Johns a plagarist, even though the thread was still there for everyone to read, and claimed that his offering her a couple of comics was an attempt to buy her off so she'd stop critcizing his work. Watching this unfold I wondered to myself why any creator would ever bother to come online.

As for people pre-judging stuff without reading/watching/seeing it. That's sort of a buggaboo of mine. I mean, I think people need to seperate interest from quality. You can judge from a trailer or an online preview or whatever whether or not you'll be interested in something but you can't really give any sort of worthwhile appraisal of the quality of something. On top of that, it seems that people can't just say that they're 'not interested' but rather have to point out that something 'sucks'.

I'm not interested in Busiek's Aquaman. I don't know, or really much care for that matter, if it sucks or not since I haven't read it.


Comics fans can be an interesting bunch.

[The Batman]

TheBatman:

I see just as much of that sort of behavior here at CBR as any other site. Maybe it's not quite as vehement or rude, but it's definitely there. And I've been rather outspoken about it on other boards here lately.

I don't think many creators really concern themselves with what the fans "want". I know as a writer and artist, I concern myself with what my client wants, but not what readers say they want, per se. I try to tell the stories *I* want to tell, and if a publisher digs it and we move into a published work, great. Then, if you buy the work and you enjoyed it, cool. If you check out or buy the work and don't like it, I might listen to you tell me why, but ultimately it comes down to, "Sorry you didn't like it, but thanks for your input. Keep checking me out - maybe I'll do something more to your liking next time." There's not much else I or any other creator CAN say or do.

You might be right and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. I just know that in my personal CBR experience I haven't come across nearly as much of that, some but not as much, as I have at other places. Regardless, it can be annoying wherever it shows up.

Also, I didn't meant to say that creators should work in such a way as to cater to fans wishes or expectations. I can see where you'd get that, I really should've reworked that bit of my post. Sorry about that.

I think that creators do have to consider what fandom wants but in a sort of very abstract way. Basically, to me they have to figure that fans are going to go to a Superman comic and a Sandman Mystery Theatre comic looking for different things and creators should probably consider that and only that much. Beyond that, they should be left to create. It's what they get paid to do. Giving fans exactly what they think they want/expect is only going to bore them.

btw, if you don't mind me asking, what have you worked on/what are you working on?

[Shellhead]

I think that there have been a couple of major changes affecting the (U.S.) fanbase since maybe the mid-80's. First, comics went from being sold at affordable prices to kids at every drug store and supermarket in America to being sold primarily at specialty stores to adults. Before that, it seemed like 90% of boys were reading comics. Second, mainstream American culture has become increasingly cynical and depraved with each passing year since at least the late 60's. Maybe I'm just projecting these personal experiences on everybody else, because I was still buying comics when they vanished from so many locations and ended up in comic stores with expensive paper. And I became a very cynical kid, becoming a teenager not long after Watergate and Vietnam.

But if my observations are accurate, there is a very divided fanbase out there, and DC and Marvel keep pushing that division wider. On the one hand, there are the oldest and youngest fans, who both want to see colorful characters wielding fantastic powers in relatively clean fights, without excessive bloodshed, degradation or sexuality. On the other hand, there are the fans who started reading as teenagers or even later. They seem to want more realistic violence, more rape, and costumes that don't look much like costumes. These fans must be the larger portion of the fanbase these days, judging by the enthusiastic reaction to Identity Crisis and the Ultimates.

In answer to the original questions posed in this thread, I don't think that any of the fans need to change. People like what they like, and the comic book companies will be more successful if they remain focused on the desires of the largest groups of fans while still finding ways to tap into the other groups when possible. Ideally, DC and Marvel should be encouraging more creativity and offering a greater variety of titles than their current focus on superhero books. At their best, comic creators can give us something new and exciting that we didn't know that we would ever like, instead of just cynically offering more of the same.

[bigcomicbookfan]

ok
also fight the power

[BillR]

Since they are probably not being paid on a pure issue basis

Well, no, they probably get paid per script or page. What do you think, they get a weekly paycheck whether they do something or not? I mean, there's exclusive contracts, but you misunderstand them, methinks.

And you're not allowed to preach about bad fans if you think comics should always focus on superheroes. Because that makes you a bad comics fan. Probably a good superhero fan, but I don't care about superheroes, I care about the medium of comics.

[Headhunter]

I think Marvel is struggling to find a balance between incorporating modern storylines and sensibilities with their classic characters. The biggest successes have been titles like Daredevil and The Punisher during his MAX run, where their respective scopes are very tightly focused on contained plots and characters with minimal involvement from mainstream Marvel.

DC is the same story, it seems that they haven't fully committed themselves to darker storylines with core characters within their mainstream titles. For example, I thought Identity Crisis had a strong emotional core but it didn't hit the right notes. It's hard for me to accept Dr. Light as a rapist or Elongated Man's wife being murdered, when previous stories featuring these characters had never ventured anywhere near that territory (correct me if I'm wrong on this). And while I think Rags Morales is a tremendously talented artist, I'm not sure his pencils fit the story; going back to Daredevil, it would be akin to the Brian Michael Bendis or Ed Brubaker stories with Joe Quesada's pencils.


There are also some efforts where less than ideal creative teams are assigned to update a title, I'm not going to name anyone but there are some definite missteps in rebooting titles. It's easy to say that serious updates/reboots should only be handed off to triple-A creators, but there are only so many to go around. The increasing prevalence of exclusive contracts and opportunities outside the graphic novel format only further compounds this: I'd love to see Brian K. Vaughn take on The Ultimates or Joss Whedon on Birds of Prey, but they have television and other opportunities (and I certainly don't begrudge them for that).


That said, I have to disagree that Marvel and DC are taking fans for granted; if anything, the quality is dramatically higher than ever before across the board. There are huge amounts of fantastic titles coming out on a weekly basis, it's an embarrassment of riches that most of us wouldn't believe was possible even a few years ago. To have creators like Joss Whedon and Brad Meltzer working in mainstream comics is an astounding leap from where the industry was at the turn of the century, and smaller publishers such as Oni Press and IDW Publishing are putting out some killer titles.

While it is undoubtedly frustrating that titles like The Ultimates come out late, I'll go for quality over quantity. The alternative would be like the later stages of New X-Men, where artists such as Igor Kordey were rushed into putting out inferior work. Which was a tragedy, as Kordey is a tremendously talented guy who did great work in books like Cable/Soldier X, but a lot of readers only know him from his rushed pencils on an X-book that ended on a fairly weak note.


The situation can always be better, but I'm pretty happy with there the comic industry is at right now. :)

[shyguy]

I think a big part of the problem is that most of the people who we think of as comic book fans aren't that at all - they're superhero fans.

If there were more fans of the medium vs. fans of the genre buying comics, we'd probably have a lot more variety in terms of genre and tone, and readers wouldn't have to be as concerned that the characters they like are all starring in comics filled with bad writing and rape.

I've all but turned my back on superhero comics published by Marvel and DC (which at the moment are more like a fantasy version of the WWF than anything) within the last few years. Frankly, it was a great move - I'm having a lot better time reading reprints, manga, and indy titles than I was wondering who on earth thought it was a good idea to rape Sue Dibny.

[Kevinroc]

The thread should basically be titled "Should traditional super hero fans be good?"

Mostly because the threadstarter feels that Marvel and DC are not publishing enough stories that appeal to the traditional super hero fan with traditional super hero characters.

[Sean Whitmore]

This thread reminds me of an exchange from Curb Your Enthusiasm.

Larry: "I don’t really get this fascination that people have with the ocean."
Man: "Don’t you feel calmer?"
Larry: "I feel aggravated that I'm missing what other people are getting."

I'm fine with my superhero comics. And that has less to do with my fear of demanding better than it does my refusal to get worked up over the fiction I read during my lunch breaks and on the toilet.


SEAN

[Aaron Kashtan]

I think a big part of the problem is that most of the people who we think of as comic book fans aren't that at all - they're superhero fans.

I totally agree, although I hope this isn't true of "most" comic book fans. I wish that some people would open themselves up more to the richness and diversity of the medium-- I imagine that if some people who read exclusively superhero comics would read The Death of Speedy or The Golem's Mighty Swing, they would enjoy it.


If there were more fans of the medium vs. fans of the genre buying comics, we'd probably have a lot more variety in terms of genre and tone, and readers wouldn't have to be as concerned that the characters they like are all starring in comics filled with bad writing and rape.

We do have a lot of variety in genre and tone, although not as much as we could have.

[Bright-Raven]

The Batman asked:


if you don't mind me asking, what have you worked on/what are you working on?

Well, since you asked...

As a media writer, I've written comics, film, television and book reviews for various online and in print publications. One such magazine is THE COMIC EFFECT(specifically #22) and there is some possibility of my doing some future art / writing for them in 2007.

www.comiceffect.com

I've also interviewed numerous comics / SF / Fantasy writers and artists for various online and print publications, including Gene Ha of TOP TEN fame, Patrick Blaine (JadeDragon here at CBR who is currently hard at work on a Darkness project for Top Cow), Eric Dean Seaton, James Alan Gardner, and Laurell K. Hamilton, among others. You can read several of these interviews at my current website.

http://home.earthlink.net/~britrvn/writing.htm

Some older inking samples of mine are there at that site as well. I'm currently designing a brand new site that hopefully will be up and running in the next month.

As an editor, I have edited for Arrow Comics for such titles as SPANK THE MONKEY ON THE COMICS MARKET and ZIMM'S HEROIC TALES. I also inked WONDERLAND #1 for Arrow Comics, and have other uncredited minor editorial work I've done for the company over the years.

www.arrowcomics.com

I also have had art and/or written materials published by Ronin Publishing (Scar Tissue #1) and Steve Jackson Games (miscellaneous RPG art) among other publishers.

In 2007? As I've already said, I'll be building an all new website, and I may be returning to appearances in Jim Kingman's COMIC EFFECT magazine. I'm also waiting to hear back from a number of editors for different SF / Fantasy magazines for illustrative work, and I'm writing a number of short prose fiction pieces which will be shopped around the SF / Fantasy magazine market as they are completed. We'll see where that goes.

I don't want to discuss current comics projects until they're under solicitation, but there's no Marvel / DC projects forthcoming as yet. All indy press work for me to date and I have no reason to expect that to change in the foreseeable future.

Hope that answered your question thoroughly enough, B. Thanks for asking!