The Marvel Marriage thread. [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

SUPERECWFAN1

12-10-2006, 02:15 PM

Over in the B.P/Storm thread people are already knocking the marriage of the 2 characters. In fact it seems to have not really gave the series a jolt as expected and fans are still un-even on it. But this wasn't the 1st time fans nixed a relationship in the comics.

Back 16 to 17 years ago in Fantastic Four , the Human Torch Johnny Storm was married. He married Alicia Masters in FF #300. This was done for sales reasons as you can suspect and with John Byrne gone the reasons were done to add hype to FF I'm sure for the new creative direction.

Its just that along the way Marvel got nervous. Fans didn't want Masters to leave Ben Grimm , even though he was the Thing. Marvel finally offered a conclusion to satisfy fans and try to restore the balance. They had it revealed that Masters was actually a Skull posing as her who Johnny Storm had married and had an egg as their baby. This didn't help as you can suspect and by the mid 90's Marvel finally tossed FF into Heroes Reborn to save it.

Over in Avengers the happy wedding days of Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne didn't seem to last. The Wasp after leaving her abusive husband became pretty darn easy as we saw under various writers. The 2 heroes seemingly will never be re-married and have pretty much the relationship where Janet will end up in the sack with Tony Stark or Hawkeye any second.

Then you have the Incredible Hulk and the marriage of Bruce Banner and Betsy Ross. Sadly their marriage would end when Ross died of gamma posioning. This after having to endure her husbands radical changes from grey/green and into smart Hulk.

I won't even bring up Crystal of the Inhumans and Quicksilver. 2 Heroes who have the wildest 20 year plus breakup going on. Currently seperated I believe again , the 2 have issues as Quicksilver is obviously crazy again and Crystal's as easy as the Wasp it appears judging from her cheating on Petior with an insurance man , the Blacknight and now wanting to seduce the Sentry in New Avengers.

Then theres the X-Men's marriage of Jean Grey and Scott Summers. Grey would die before they'd tie the knot , Summers would marry an exact double for her and then leave her for the real thing ! Then after marrying the 2 would grow distant as Jean's changes took their toll. The end of that marriage saw Jean sacrifice herself .

In the end do we have any question on whethor Jessica Jones and Luke Cage can stick it out as long as Reed Richards and Sue Richards as the FF ? Or will Black Panther and Storm last as long ? Or are writers waiting ahead to throw curves and show that some heroes aren't meant to tie the knot ?

Kevinroc

12-10-2006, 02:28 PM

SUPERECWFAN1

12-10-2006, 02:35 PM

What is Betty Banner's status these days? I know it is up in the air. Hopefully we'll find out what her status is in World War Hulk. But it looks like Hulk is going to marry Caiera. So if Betty is still alive, what does that mean for... well... everyone?

Rick Jones, sidekick to everyone, is still married to Marlo. Her brief relationship with Moondragon is over.

Peter Parker is still married to Mary Jane.

We don't need to bring up Scarlet Witch and Vision, do we?

Yep I really didn't touch on a lot of the marriages in Marvel. Some like Peter Parker/Mary Jane make the fans feel happy. Of course we have no clue if JQ and JMS will ruin that marriage since they have pretty much wrecked other aspects of Spiderman in huge events.

innocentboy

12-10-2006, 02:52 PM

interesting observations ...

Brian M.

12-10-2006, 03:12 PM

The Scott/Jean marriage is one I didn't understand why it broke up. You had Scott struggling w/ new emotions and such b/c of her merger w/ Apoc. You have Jean, Phoenix, who has been through all of that...Jean should have been the one person to understand what he was going through yet they had him run off w/ Sluts McGee instead. Doesn't make sense to me, they should still be married and running the X-Men.

Mo S.

12-10-2006, 04:05 PM

Not a lot of actual marriages for Avengers characters -
Hank and Han, now divorced and still in "on again, off again" mode;
Hawkeye and Mockingbird - Mock was killed (also as an "issue #100" sales stunt, plus I think writers had decided it was boring writing reconciled married characters);
Vision and Scarlet Witch, probably the less said about that, the better;
Crystal and Quicksilver, mentioned above;
Mantis and the Pod Person, also destined not to end well;
Luke Cage and Jessica Jones, the latest addition.

Who am I missing?

Effect

12-10-2006, 04:25 PM

Splitting up Scott and Jean never made much sense. Though I think X-Factor put a taint on the relationship that set it along it's course though.

I think the reason many of the marriages don't work is that they weren't properly planned and there was no long term plan for the marriages. Some just work like Reed and Sue since that's how they were designed from the start. They have the whole family aspect of the Fantastic Four working in their favor so writers now from the start what they have to do. I think Luke and Jessica should work out due to the time and effort put into their relationship by Bendis. We've seen the entire formation of it, which a lot of relationships lack in comics. Crystal and Quicksilver, ugh.

I think when doing marriages in comics you have to be really careful due to the open ended nature of comics. There is no ending point decided. The relationship should at least be outlined to some degree. There needs to be real build up as well. Black Panther is a clear example of how not to marry to characters. First don't hype it as "Wedding of the Century". That shouts gimmick and stunt. Second you don't retcon the two characters entire past to justify the marriage. Third you don't have only one of the characters writers writing the relationship, wedding, etc. If the character is in limbo fine or if both characters are already apart of a team book for a while then one writer doing it makes sense. You don't rip a character from another writer and group of fans (especially the larger of the two), alter the characters personality and history and force the marriage. You give readers time to get used to the idea of the characters being together in general first to feel them out to get an idea if it's good to go ahead with said marriage since readers are well the ones that have to read the situation in the end. Fourth, the characters should be equal, not one playing second fiddle to the other. Especially the more popular one of the two.

I like this idea best, when you marry to characters together at that moment you must and have to stop thinking of them as two separate characters. From that point on they have to be treated as a single character and only be thought of as a single character. With each side representing different aspects in order to make it work. If you keep thinking of them as two separate characters the desire to do one thing with one half screws up the situation. You must take into account the other member of the marriage in all actions you have that other character go through I think, even if there is no long term plan decided for them. I think that's how you can make those marriages work. That and decide from the very start if you are serious about the marriage. If it's serious then it has to be given that editorial stamp from high on top and all writers must be aware of it right away and made clear that it's a serious relationship to any new writer or artist that comes on board and they are not to do anything to suggest a possible way it could be broken up.

Lord_Archive

12-10-2006, 04:35 PM

I find too many people are hung up on the whole "will they or wont they" aspect of character romances to be of any use to character development or to the long term development of a storyline. Also too many fools believe that once the hero gets the girl, or whatever love interest, then the story has ended - such notions are the flatulence of unimaginative minds, in my honest opinion.

I don't see why people are so hung up on marriage when its meaning is far from sacred.

In America, 4 out of every 10 couples are not married. Of that remaining sixty percent, more than 50% of them will end within an average of 8 years and an average of 15% of the remaining that last beyond 8 years do so because a partner wont or can't leave because they are trapped within an abusive relationship.

The sad truth is people don't know how to have marriages in this country, if they ever did - let's face it, this country was founded by people who couldn't stand to live with the rest of Europe. These days it seems Americans are too busy competing with each other and defining themselves as individuals to realize that marriage is teamwork and not about winning fights and showing dominance. Relationships take effort, hard work and continual emotional investments from both sides.

Writing character storylines that have characters fall in and out of love for the sake of shock value and profit margins trivialize this growing social problem. Personally, I find it just a little offensive, if not absurdly cliche.

sinjection

12-10-2006, 04:43 PM

Over in the B.P/Storm thread people are already knocking the marriage of the 2 characters. In fact it seems to have not really gave the series a jolt as expected and fans are still un-even on it.

Let's be clear. Many "people" were knocking the marriage of Storm to the Panther BEFORE it happened. For some, they didn't like the fact that Storm's marriage to the Panther would probably keep her in Wakanda with her husband and away from the X-Men. Others were upset because they believed Forge was best suited to be Storm's husband instead of the Panther. Still others had entertained the bizarre notion that Wolverine's lust for Storm + Storm's brief flirtation with Wolverine = an epic love story that deserved to be further developed. Though many "people" claim to love the Panther as a character, NONE of his solo ongoing titles have ever experienced that "jolt" which would ensure a long-running series, regardless of WHO the writer for the title had been. This leads me to suspect that most "people" are simply giving lip service when they claim to like T'Challa, The Black Panther as a character. On the other hand, Hudlin's Panther is still going strong and enjoys the support of a dedicated, enthused and excited fan base. This Panther title WILL succeed as will the Black Panther/Storm wedding.

I would think there would be some issue about the fact that Medusa's marriage to Black Bolt is an incestuous relationship between cousins. The Luke Cage/Jessica Jones marriage doesn't seem to be one based upon a strong love between the partners as much as it is their shared love for the baby they made during an evening of "angry sex". How long could that marriage last?

SUPERECWFAN1

12-10-2006, 04:53 PM

Let's be clear. Many "people" were knocking the marriage of Storm to the Panther BEFORE it happened. For some, they didn't like the fact that Storm's marriage to the Panther would probably keep her in Wakanda with her husband and away from the X-Men. Others were upset because they believed Forge was best suited to be Storm's husband instead of the Panther. Still others had entertained the bizarre notion that Wolverine's lust for Storm + Storm's brief flirtation with Wolverine = an epic love story that deserved to be further developed. Though many "people" claim to love the Panther as a character, NONE of his solo ongoing titles have ever experienced that "jolt" which would ensure a long-running series, regardless of WHO the writer for the title had been. This leads me to suspect that most "people" are simply giving lip service when they claim to like T'Challa, The Black Panther as a character. On the other hand, Hudlin's Panther is still going strong and enjoys the support of a dedicated, enthused and excited fan base. This Panther title WILL succeed as will the Black Panther/Storm wedding.

I would think there would be some issue about the fact that Medusa's marriage to Black Bolt is an incestuous relationship between cousins.

I've bolded that part. I think its the fact that the character has its section of fans. Its juts not a character that can get enough of a fanbase behind it to stick on a regular series. Which happens in comics now sad to say.

Take a character like Hawkman. A popular character in the JLA/JSA groups how many revamps of Hawkman at DC have their been ? And how many series has he had that ended up cancelled ? The character has a section of fans but thus far he's had a lot of series that have failed.

Maybe its the fact people view a character like Black Panther as the group type. That he's a popular character in a group like Avengers. Thats where he works best at. And that many don't want to step into his regular series he has. Which does happen to a lot of fans.

I like Black Panther. I really enjoyed him in Geoff Johns run of Avengers though. Had he stayed on longer without going DC Exclusive I think he would have gave BP a great voice in Avengers.

Effect

12-10-2006, 04:58 PM

Good point. There are plenty of characters that are popular and people enjoy. However that doesn't always transfers to the solo title of the character. I really enjoy reading about Wolverine however I don't read his solo title cause I have no interest in reading just about him. I like how he interacts with other characters. Which is why I enjoy him in New Avengers and X-men. The past issues of Avengers I've read I liked BP. I really have no interest in automatically reading about him in a solo title. I'm tracking down the Priest issues slowly cause I wasn't into comics when they were coming out. In the end some characters just come off better as members of a group.

Take the various X-men characters for example. A lot are very popular but few of them have their solo titles or minis sell well. Does not mean people don't' like them just don't have an interest in reading solo titles about them. Then money is a factor as well, a lot of people can only afford so many titles a month and some get left by the wayside and only read in stores or not looked at at all. I love reading Spider-man but I usually don't bother with SSM or FNSM and I think that is the case for a lot of readers and why the sales for those titles are always below Amazing Spider-man. Take the Thing for example as well. Popular character but solo didn't sell at all. Does that mean The Thing is loved any less by his fans?

sinjection

12-10-2006, 05:02 PM

Maybe its the fact people view a character like Black Panther as the group type. That he's a popular character in a group like Avengers. Thats where he works best at. And that many don't want to step into his regular series he has. Which does happen to a lot of fans.

Those "people" who seem to only like T'Challa when he is a subordinate in a group setting are the same "people" who can only get into Luke Cage when he is paired with Iron Fist.

The Panther and Cage are two strong, unique and compelling characters in their own right with stories of their own to be told. In my opinion, the reason neither character seemed to enjoy much success in a solo title was more culture-related than anything else.

spyridona

12-10-2006, 05:04 PM

I would think there would be some issue about the fact that Medusa's marriage to Black Bolt is an incestuous relationship between cousins.

One of the reasons why most people ingore the incestual part is simply because they're NOT human.

In fact they have one of the oldest marriages in Marvel. How ironic that it's also one of the strongest marriages in comics as well. While Black Bolt is more powerful, he defers to his wife and depends on his wife more than anyone else. They truly love each other and work together as a team, putting a lot of the other married couples to shame.

SUPERECWFAN1

12-10-2006, 05:05 PM

sinjection

12-10-2006, 05:12 PM

One of the reasons why most people ingore the incestual part is simply because they're NOT human.

In fact they have one of the oldest marriages in Marvel. How ironic that it's also one of the strongest marriages in comics as well. While Black Bolt is more powerful, he defers to his wife and depends on his wife more than anyone else. They truly love each other and work together as a team, putting a lot of the other married couples to shame.

"Not human". While other inhumans have bizarre outward appearances, Black Bolt and Medusa look enough like "humans" to be humans. Take away the writhing of Medusa's locks and just let the hair lie naturally, and she is just another human woman who enjoys wearing her hair very long, ala Crystal Gayle. Take away Black Bolt's uniform. Unless he's got a third eye in the middle of his forehead beneath that mask, he'd look human enough to be human. No. I respectfully disagree with your assessment. "Most people" ignore the fact that Black Bolt and Medusa are involved in an incestuous relationship because they obviously don't believe it is much of an issue or because of the fact that the Inhumans haven't become as widely-celebrated as the X-Men.

The Wakandan Royal's wedding is still a new thing. Clearly, T'Challa adores Ororo and she returns those emotions. Their marriage could easily become something very special in the annals of Marvel Universe marital unions. Afterall, the Watcher himself was present at the wedding of T'Challa and Ororo. That just doesn't happen to every Marvel couple that weds.

Effect

12-10-2006, 05:13 PM

Those "people" who seem to only like T'Challa when he is a subordinate in a group setting are the same "people" who can only get into Luke Cage when he is paired with Iron Fist.

The Panther and Cage are two strong, unique and compelling characters in their own right with stories of their own to be told. In my opinion, the reason neither character seemed to enjoy much success in a solo title was more culture-related than anything else.

What about all of the other characters in Marvel and DC that didn't have much success with solo titles then? Do you use the same argument for them or only Panther and Cage cause they are black?

Also the Watcher shows up far to often anyway. Hasn't his presence sort lost or is on it's way to losing meaning?

SUPERECWFAN1

12-10-2006, 05:16 PM

Those "people" who seem to only like T'Challa when he is a subordinate in a group setting are the same "people" who can only get into Luke Cage when he is paired with Iron Fist.

Guilty as charged. I can't get into Luke Cage as an Avenger. But as someone getting back issues of Powerman & Iron Fist , I love him more there.

The Panther and Cage are two strong, unique and compelling characters in their own right with stories of their own to be told. In my opinion, the reason neither character seemed to enjoy much success in a solo title was more culture-related than anything else.

I think part of it was due to Cage's profile in the Marvel Universe in the late 80's/90's. He pretty much seemingly dissapeared from books until his 20 issue series attempt in 1992. Then he dissapeared until Marvel Knights happened and Brian Bendis later revived him to big fame.

Once Powerman & Iron Fist and Defenders left the racks in the mid 80's its like Luke Cage just dissapeared from the fans eyes.

sinjection

12-10-2006, 05:22 PM

What about all of the other characters in Marvel and DC that didn't have much success with solo titles then? Do you use the same argument for them or only Panther and Cage cause they are black?

Also the Watcher shows up far to often anyway. Hasn't his presence sort lost or is on it's way to losing meaning?

The failure of solo ongoing titles featuring characters like Spider-Woman, She-Hulk, Ms Marvel can probably be attributed to the fact that the larger comicbook-buying demographic (white males 12 - ?), can no more relate to a female character than they are able to relate to a black character, male or female.

I believe the Watcher's presence at the "Wedding of the Century" was significant, that his presence there was awesome, eerie and still carries the weight of extreme importance.

spyridona

12-10-2006, 05:37 PM

"Most people" ignore the fact that Black Bolt and Medusa are involved in an incestuous relationship because they obviously don't believe it is much of an issue or because of the fact that the Inhumans haven't become as widely-celebrated as the X-Men.

The Wakandan Royal's wedding is still a new thing. Clearly, T'Challa adores Ororo and she returns those emotions. Their marriage could easily become something very special in the annals of Marvel Universe marital unions. Afterall, the Watcher himself was present at the wedding of T'Challa and Ororo. That just doesn't happen to every Marvel couple that weds.

Uhm. Sir? If I may? I wasn't comparing T'Challa and Ororo to Black Bolt and Medusa. Please stop trying to make everyone's assements into something aganist T'Challa and Ororo.

I was just pointing out as a fan who knows other fans who just don't care about the incestual part because they're 'NOT HUMAN'. They have a different culture than other cultures presented in Marvel Comics. Most fans who LIKE Medusa and Black Bolt understand that the culture of the Inhumans is very strict and depends strongly on genetics. A marriage between Medusa and Black Bolt ended up as lucky. Their genetics compliment and genetic disorders will be an unlikely occurrence to their off spring and they’re crazy about each other. Thier child Ahusra (whom everyone forgets about) is healthy and happy. The dangers of incest are not applicable in Inhuman society.

SUPERECWFAN1

12-10-2006, 05:38 PM

The failure of solo ongoing titles featuring characters like Spider-Woman, She-Hulk, Ms Marvel can probably be attributed to the fact that the larger comicbook-buying demographic (white males 12 - ?), can no more relate to a female character than they are able to relate to a black character, male or female.

I believe the Watcher's presence at the "Wedding of the Century" was significant, that his presence there was awesome, eerie and still carries the weight of extreme importance.

Well your 1st part is partly right that some characters can't support a series. But heres a rundown of female characters that have had long runs

1. Sensational She-Hulk: Ran from 1989-1994 and lasted 60 issues.
2. Spidergirl: Ran 100 issues from 1998-2006 , relaunched as Amazing Spidergirl now.
3. Spider-Woman: Ran 50 issues in the mid 80's. Has returned...
4. Dazzler: Ran from 1981-1985 ...ran 42 issues , had a mini-series and graphic novel as well. Went to Uncanny X-Men and is back in New Excalibur now.

The Watcher being there doesn't mean 2 shakes to me. Didn't he show up in Civil War and we all know how awesome a tale that is. :p

sinjection

12-10-2006, 05:54 PM

Uhm. Sir? If I may? I wasn't comparing T'Challa and Ororo to Black Bolt and Medusa. Please stop trying to make everyone's assements into something aganist T'Challa and Ororo.

I was just pointing out as a fan who knows other fans who just don't care about the incestual part because they're 'NOT HUMAN'. They have a different culture than other cultures presented in Marvel Comics. Most fans who LIKE Medusa and Black Bolt understand that the culture of the Inhumans is very strict and depends strongly on genetics. A marriage between Medusa and Black Bolt ended up as lucky. Their genetics compliment and genetic disorders will be an unlikely occurrence to their off spring and they’re crazy about each other. Thier child Ahusra (whom everyone forgets about) is healthy and happy. The dangers of incest are not applicable in Inhuman society.

Did I suggest that you were comparing the Inhuman Royals to the Wakandan Royals? No. I think not. You said that the incestuous marriage of the Inhuman Royals puts most Marvel marriages to shame. I simply said that T'Challa's and Ororo's marriage is still a new thing and that in time, their marriage could (and should), become something very special.

Most humans have different cultures from other humans. In some families, there are marriages that occur between cousins - not in MY family mind you. It doesn't matter if Medusa and Black Bolt are human or Inhuman. The fact remains that if you were to take away costumes and "living hair", they look enough like humans to BE human. I never knew Black Bolt and Medusa even had a child. Given the bizarre mutated appearances most Inhumans seem to have, I'd guess that any mutation their child might have as a result to having been born to parents of the same blood would probably go unnoticed even before the child were exposed to the Terrigen Mists.

Most people have nothing but complaints and criticisms about the wedding of Ororo to T'Challa. Maybe you don't or just haven't indicated those criticisms or complaints as of yet. If and when you do, I will address those complaints and criticisms at that time.

Kevinroc

12-10-2006, 06:02 PM

The Watcher being there doesn't mean 2 shakes to me. Didn't he show up in Civil War and we all know how awesome a tale that is. :p

The Watcher is only there because even he couldn't decipher Infinite Crisis and nobody cares about Annihilation. :p

SUPERECWFAN1

12-10-2006, 06:06 PM

The Watcher is only there because even he couldn't decipher Infinite Crisis and nobody cares about Annihilation. :p

Yeah I heard the Watcher go " F-ck Universes being destroyed by power hungry villains. I wanna attend the Black Panther/Storm marriage ! There are bridemaids I have my eye on."

sinjection

12-10-2006, 06:08 PM

Well your 1st part is partly right that some characters can't support a series. But heres a rundown of female characters that have had long runs

1. Sensational She-Hulk: Ran from 1989-1994 and lasted 60 issues.
2. Spidergirl: Ran 100 issues from 1998-2006 , relaunched as Amazing Spidergirl now.
3. Spider-Woman: Ran 50 issues in the mid 80's. Has returned...
4. Dazzler: Ran from 1981-1985 ...ran 42 issues , had a mini-series and graphic novel as well. Went to Uncanny X-Men and is back in New Excalibur now.

The Watcher being there doesn't mean 2 shakes to me. Didn't he show up in Civil War and we all know how awesome a tale that is. :p

I'm not sure, but I think Christopher Priest's Panther run lasted better than 40 issues. I'm one fan who wasn't pleased with the direction he was taking the Panther and though it pained me to do so, I stopped purchasing the Panther title he was writing. I'm sure that Hudlin's Panther has enough of a strong and supportive fanbase that his run will exceed Priests in terms of issues printed.

Your opinion of the Watcher is subjective. You're welcome to it. In my opinion, the Watcher's presence at the wedding of Ororo to T'Challa still carries the same weight of import that his appearance to the FF on the eve of Galactus' first coming to Earth did.

No, "we all" DON'T "know how awesome a tale" Civil War is. I never got into it and never had much interest in it. I do know that the majority of Marvel's black characters seemed to side with Captain America, and that as a result of this war, another black character has joined the ranks of the unliving.

Civil War don't mean diddly to me.

Kevinroc

12-10-2006, 06:10 PM

Yeah I heard the Watcher go " F-ck Universes being destroyed by power hungry villains. I wanna attend the Black Panther/Storm marriage ! There are bridemaids I have my eye on."

Uatu only cares about seeing Spider-Woman taking a shower. Or in watching married couples like Storm and Panther having sex. Or Spider-Man and MJ having sex.

The guy likes to watch.

(No wonder other alien races sued The Watchers to get their privacy.)

SUPERECWFAN1

12-10-2006, 06:23 PM

I'm not sure, but I think Christopher Priest's Panther run lasted better than 40 issues. I'm one fan who wasn't pleased with the direction he was taking the Panther and though it pained me to do so, I stopped purchasing the Panther title he was writing. I'm sure that Hudlin's Panther has enough of a strong and supportive fanbase that his run will exceed Priests in terms of issues printed.

It ran 62 issues . As long as Hudlin keeps working a high profile gig and all , Joe Quesada will allow it. Because Quesada loves Hollywood guys. He has allowed Astonishing X-Men and Young Avengers to be way late. So as long as JQ runs Marvel , Hudlin will keep his job.

However....the sales jolt didn't last with the marriage #18 ( over 60,000 ) and #21 before the CW tie-in issues start had a rank at #83 with 26,000 . So I'm sure the CW issues will help it. ( Numbers courtesy of Icv2)

Your opinion of the Watcher is subjective. You're welcome to it. In my opinion, the Watcher's presence at the wedding of Ororo to T'Challa still carries the same weight of import that his appearance to the FF on the eve of Galactus' first coming to Earth did.

One guy was gonna devour the entire World and kill all of humanity. The others a wedding of 2 characters. Why didn't the Watcher show up at Luke Cage's and Jessica Jones Wedding since he's obviously into weddings now ?

No, "we all" DON'T "know how awesome a tale" Civil War is. I never got into it and never had much interest in it. I do know that the majority of Marvel's black characters seemed to side with Captain America, and that as a result of this war, another black character has joined the ranks of the unliving.

Civil War don't mean diddly to me.

Thats sarcastic smiley by me. I don't like Civil War since Tony Stark has obviously turned into something beyond a villain.

SUPERECWFAN1

12-10-2006, 06:25 PM

Uatu only cares about seeing Spider-Woman taking a shower. Or in watching married couples like Storm and Panther having sex. Or Spider-Man and MJ having sex.

The guy likes to watch.

(No wonder other alien races sued The Watchers to get their privacy.)

Next on Geraldo....

Uato the Watcher: Cosmic being of Importance or Sexual Pervert.....you decide !

sinjection

12-10-2006, 06:39 PM

It ran 62 issues . As long as Hudlin keeps working a high profile gig and all , Joe Quesada will allow it. Because Quesada loves Hollywood guys. He has allowed Astonishing X-Men and Young Avengers to be way late. So as long as JQ runs Marvel , Hudlin will keep his job.

However....the sales jolt didn't last with the marriage #18 ( over 60,000 ) and #21 before the CW tie-in issues start had a rank at #83 with 26,000 . So I'm sure the CW issues will help it.

One guy was gonna devour the entire World and kill all of humanity. The others a wedding of 2 characters. Why didn't the Watcher show up at Luke Cage's and Jessica Jones Wedding since he's obviously into weddings now ?

Thats sarcastic smiley by me. I don't like Civil War since Tony Stark has obviously turned into something beyond a villain.

Hudlin has that "high profile gig" because he is a talented professional. Hudlin continues to write the Panther because he is a talented professional, a gifted writer and because the book is obviously selling well enough that Quesada continues to have confidence in his work. I don't really take "crossover events" into account when assessing the success of the Black Panther. As I mentioned before, many "people" don't seem to be interested in characters like the Panther or Cage unless they are interacting with other characters. There are "people" who will always see the marriage of Storm to the Panther as a "gimmick" to attract more black readers to comicbooks and to boost sales of a "marginal" character. This is how most "people" view the Wakandan Royal marriage. In my view, their opinion was prejudiced from the start and remains bigoted to this day. Hudlin is doing a fantastic job with the Panther AND Storm and there is no doubt that his talents will bring bigger, better and more exciting stories in the future.

Why would the Watcher show up at the wedding of two people who may only THINK they love each other because they made a baby together during a bout of "angry sex"? I wish Cage and Jessica the best, but no way do I see their wedding as significant enough to attract the attention of the Watcher. The Panther and Storm on the other hand, now that's a different story. Their union is such a powerful event that it DID warrant the presence of the Watcher. This speaks to the power of T'Challa, of his beautiful and powerful wife and Queen, Ororo and the might of Wakanda itself. I know alot of "people" hate to accept that fact, but it's the truth.

SUPERECWFAN1

12-10-2006, 07:01 PM

Hudlin has that "high profile gig" because he is a talented professional. Hudlin continues to write the Panther because he is a talented professional, a gifted writer and because the book is obviously selling well enough that Quesada continues to have confidence in his work.

Good for him. I don't care but there is a Hollywood thing here I brought up. I love " Young Avengers " a lot. Heinberg's a great writer but man ohh man he gets special treatment too. His " Season 2 " starts next year and its the same case as Joss Whedon. They all get special treatment it seems. I just wonder if a guy like Ed Brubaker was late with Iron Fist #2 , would he get the same kinda treatment or would he be replaced ?

I don't really take "crossover events" into account when assessing the success of the Black Panther. As I mentioned before, many "people" don't seem to be interested in characters like the Panther or Cage unless they are interacting with other characters.

Well at times it does help doing a big cross-over tie-in. I can see why Marvel's doing it to lure fans to the new creative direction of that series. They are trying it on Cable & Deadpool as well.

There are "people" who will always see the marriage of Storm to the Panther as a "gimmick" to attract more black readers to comicbooks and to boost sales of a "marginal" character. This is how most "people" view the Wakandan Royal marriage. In my view, their opinion was prejudiced from the start and remains bigoted to this day.

It was a sales stunt. I'm sorry but it was. I'm saying this in all honesty and as a fan who liked what Claremont had planned for Storm/Logan. But accepted it and allowed myself to move on. I wish them luck with it all. But I can see why long term X-Readers won't accept it. ( I came on the books in the 1990's)

They hyped it as an event driven stunt with a 6 issue mini-series and all the works. They wanted to sell books and as a business thats pretty much what you want.

Why would the Watcher show up at the wedding of two people who may only THINK they love each other because they made a baby together during a bout of "angry sex"? I wish Cage and Jessica the best, but no way do I see their wedding as significant enough to attract the attention of the Watcher.

That was a joke more or less. Because with Universes and palnets dying I can't believe that gets Ignored for a Wedding.

The Panther and Storm on the other hand, now that's a different story. Their union is such a powerful event that it DID warrant the presence of the Watcher. This speaks to the power of T'Challa, of his beautiful and powerful wife and Queen, Ororo and the might of Wakanda itself. I know alot of "people" hate to accept that fact, but it's the truth.

Again it was as you said an Event. I'm sure Marvel to add wieght to the issue ( and try to make it appear Momentus) added that the Watcher be there. I have no problems with it since the Watcher seems to pop up a lot to look on things.

John Nowak

12-10-2006, 07:05 PM

sinjection

12-10-2006, 07:16 PM

It was a sales stunt. I'm sorry but it was. I'm saying this in all honesty and as a fan who liked what Claremont had planned for Storm/Logan. But accepted it and allowed myself to move on. I wish them luck with it all. But I can see why long term X-Readers won't accept it. ( I came on the books in the 1990's)

They hyped it as an event driven stunt with a 6 issue mini-series and all the works. They wanted to sell books and as a business thats pretty much what you want.

Again it was as you said an Event. I'm sure Marvel to add wieght to the issue ( and try to make it appear Momentus) added that the Watcher be there. I have no problems with it since the Watcher seems to pop up a lot to look on things.

Sales stunt or no, Ororo has been married to the ONLY Marvel male it makes sense for her to be married to. Logan with Ororo is repugnant to me. The two characters are ill-suited for one another psychologically, spiritually and physically. T'Challa and Ororo look perfect and dazzling together. As I said in another thread, they are so elegant and sensual, they look like two beautiful and perfect panthers personified. Ororo with Logan? Beauty with the beast. Unfortunately, that situation already exists in the case of the unfortunate Cecelia Reyes being romantically paired with a manimal. I find that coupling to be beyond disgusting. I can't imagine anyone who would trade the magnificence of T'Challa standing proud tall and so much in love with his lovely wife and Queen, Ororo who would be standing just as tall and proudly, for the image of the beer-swilling, chain-smoking, cigar-chomping, smelly, hairy, fanged troll with a bozo the clown haircut and Elvis Presley sideburns, who when standing tall and proudly beside Ororo wouldn't even come up to her chest level.

I'm extremely pleased that the Wakandan Royal Wedding rescued Ororo from the fate of being romantically linked with a character who only lusted for her and is beneath her in every way.

Hi-Fi

12-10-2006, 07:22 PM

Afterall, the Watcher himself was present at the wedding of T'Challa and Ororo. That just doesn't happen to every Marvel couple that weds.

Yeah, how ridiculous was that?

Effect

12-10-2006, 07:23 PM

It was about presentation. It was extremely poor here and I think that can be seen with how it was pushed. A big deal was made out of it. Sorry but when you have adds advertising it as the "wedding of the century" how can you not see the whole event as a stunt, gimmick, commercial, forced, etc? The very way they pushed this event shows me that they knew they were going to have a hard time of even selling it to readers. They in th end had to put the Civil War label on the wedding issue just to make it sure it sold. Look at the drop off on the issues after it.

Does anyone here honestly think the wedding issue here sold on the wedding itself? Or the fact that it was a Civil War tie in? Be completely honest with yourself on this.

Readers were never given a chance to get used to the idea. How they went about it was just wrong and I honestly believe it alienated a fair number of Storm fans when it came to the relationship itself, especially since there were other things going on with Storm and were in development that were just dropped for this marriage. That is not a good thing if you want fans to be open to an idea. You don't screw over one idea that was already in the works, that was working off of years of content to push another one (based off of meetings you can count on your hand).

Sin I have a few questions for you and I really want your honest opinion about it. Looking at the entire situation are surprised at the negative reaction to the Storm wedding based on how it was done?

I'm talking about how it was advertised, etc? Where readers given enough time to get used to the idea of them being together? Should Hudlin have been the only one to write the wedding of the character even though he's had NO experience with her while there were plenty of writers that did given how popular Storm is or was? Just because Hudlin himself is black doesn't mean he should have been to writer Storm or was the only one. Other writers have proven they can write Storm and other black characters extremely well over the years from company to company.

Do you think it could have been presented, lead up to, and generally done better?

Do you think there should have been even more build up, at least a a few years?

Do you honestly think there was nothing done wrong with the entire situation and that it was perfect?

Don't or at least try not to bring race into this either. Just look at the situation objectively please. Especially from the side of X-men fans that liked Storm and enjoyed her development. You've made it clear you only think she should be with BP and I can only think of one reason why based on post in the past and your stance on things so I won't ask you why about that. I'm talking about how it was done. Perhaps then you can see why many people were and are against the marriage.

Hi-Fi

12-10-2006, 07:25 PM

Sales stunt or no, Ororo has been married to the ONLY Marvel male it makes sense for her to be married to.

Well, I have read all Ororo's appearences in Marvel books, and if Black Panther makes more sense than Forge, well...

Mariah

12-10-2006, 07:26 PM

I didn't care much for the wedding of Storm and Black Panther, pretty much for the best reason to dislike fiction: Hudlin just didn't make his story work adequately. There's very little magnetism between the two characters, and it's impossible to believe they're actually in love. The only moment that really worked was when Panther silently walked out on his bachelor party.

This story was probably going to be a hard sell to begin with, just because it was so obviously commercial -- I've heard it dismissed as "multicultural outreach" and "hey, they're black -- of course they have to get married!" and the fact the story itself fell so flat isn't surprising. I'm sure someone could write a good, convincing story which ended with Storm and Black Panther getting married; but Hudlin wasn't up to it.
I agree. There were some good parts, like when the other black characters in the MU took notice when Josiah came to the wedding, but other than that, I didn't really like much of it, or this series for that matter.

It's too bad to, because I really enjoyed T'Challa under Priest's pen, but this series just doesn't do it for me. Maybe if they got a better writer it'd spark my interest.

I was saddened to see Storm rushed off into this wedding, as she used to be one of my favorite characters growing up. Being a mixed girl reading comics, it's hard to come across a character with the same skin tone as you.

SUPERECWFAN1

12-10-2006, 07:29 PM

Well, I have read all Ororo's appearences in Marvel books, and if Blac Panther makes more sense than Forge, well...

I always saw Forge and Ororo as a couple. In fact Yost and Kyle showcased that he still feels something for her in the Nimrod arc. When Nimrod's gonna go hunt down Storm he has to work on him.

Plus Logan/Storm ....its true he's a short guy. But he's the animal. The guy who fights his inner animal. I could see Ororo calming his fight . The 2 at times threw sparks so I could see them as well

sinjection

12-10-2006, 07:43 PM

I agree. There were some good parts, like when the other black characters in the MU took notice when Josiah came to the wedding, but other than that, I didn't really like much of it, or this series for that matter.

It's too bad to, because I really enjoyed T'Challa under Priest's pen, but this series just doesn't do it for me. Maybe if they got a better writer it'd spark my interest.

I was saddened to see Storm rushed off into this wedding, as she used to be one of my favorite characters growing up. Being a mixed girl reading comics, it's hard to come across a character with the same skin tone as you.

Christopher Priest was destroying the Panther psychologically and physically. He had the Panther losing his mind and dying from a brain aneurysm. He'd planned to have him become a villian, only to then use what would be a failed marriage to Ororo to redeem himself. Priest was insulting and destroying the Panther. He even attempted to replace the black African Black Panther with a bi-racial kooky U.S. citizen who happened to find one of T'Challa's discarded Panther habits, decided to wear it and begin calling himself the Black Panther. Hudlin rescued the Panther and restored his dignity, his manhood and gave him the marriage to Ororo that BOTH characters deserved.

I am happy to see that you replaced "mulatto" with "mixed". Though mulatto probably is not meant to be an offensive term, it can be taken that way. The root of the word mulatto is "mule", the hybrid of donkey and horse. Ororo may have been rendered as having a light skin tone, but that may have been a choice of the writer. The range of skin tone in the Black race is vast. As someone put it, I believe it might have been the Honorable Minister, Louis Farrakhan, black people who have never been touched by white people, range in color from midnight to damn near white. Ororo is Kenyan and African-American. It is possible that her skin tone is rather fair. That's not out of character. However, her "lightness of color" has nothing to do with her racial heritage. Ororo is the offspring of two black parents, a Kenyan mother and a black American father. There is no cream in Ororo's coffee.

sinjection

12-10-2006, 07:47 PM

I always saw Forge and Ororo as a couple. In fact Yost and Kyle showcased that he still feels something for her in the Nimrod arc. When Nimrod's gonna go hunt down Storm he has to work on him.

Plus Logan/Storm ....its true he's a short guy. But he's the animal. The guy who fights his inner animal. I could see Ororo calming his fight . The 2 at times threw sparks so I could see them as well

Ororo would be wasted "calming" that little troll. Better she and T'Challa are together and stoking the fires of their love passion.

How many "people" would support a Ms Marvel/Bishop romance? I could count their number on one hand. All I would need to do is form a circle with my forefinger and thumb and there you'd have it. Why then would a fan of T'Challa and Ororo want to see Ororo paired with a character that is so completely ill-suited for her?

Forge and Ororo is played out. He had his chance. He blew it. Mystique is still available. He should go for it.

Mariah

12-10-2006, 07:56 PM

Christopher Priest was destroying the Panther psychologically and physically. He had the Panther losing his mind and dying from a brain aneurysm. He'd planned to have him become a villian, only to then use what would be a failed marriage to Ororo to redeem himself. Priest was insulting and destroying the Panther. He even attempted to replace the black African Black Panther with a bi-racial kooky U.S. citizen who happened to find one of T'Challa's discarded Panther habits, decided to wear it and begin calling himself the Black Panther. Hudlin rescued the Panther and restored his dignity, his manhood and gave him the marriage to Ororo that BOTH characters deserved.

I am happy to see that you replaced "mulatto" with "mixed". Though mulatto probably is not meant to be an offensive term, it can be taken that way. The root of the word mulatto is "mule", the hybrid of donkey and horse. Ororo may have been rendered as having a light skin tone, but that may have been a choice of the writer. The range of skin tone in the Black race is vast. As someone put it, I believe it might have been the Honorable Minister, Louis Farrakhan, black people who have never been touched by white people, range in color from midnight to damn near white. Ororo is Kenyan and African-American. It is possible that her skin tone is rather fair. That's not out of character. However, her "lightness of color" has nothing to do with her racial heritage. Ororo is the offspring of two black parents, a Kenyan mother and a black American father. There is no cream in Ororo's coffee.
First, the replacement of T'Challa was a editorial decision to boost sales on the stagnant title, not Priest's. And I don't feel the courtship was handled well under Hudlin. Sorry, it's my opinion. Storm deserved better. I'm not really all that against her relationship with him, if she wasn't so mishandled by Hudlin. It seems he hasn't read any of the stories that she's been involved in since her creation.

And the reason I threw in mixed is because I'm more than just black and white, I'm also Puerto Rican, and I embrace all of my heritages. I'm not any of them, but all of them. Yes, I knew the root word from which Mullato is coined from. But thanks for the lesson.

Ororo's features, ie. Her blue, asian shaped eyes, her white hair, her caucasian shaped nose are all aspects of her mutation being so intune with the planet and all of the residents, she's meant to reflect aspects of all races. She's meant to reflect the "earth goddess" she so often refers to.

Omega Alpha

12-10-2006, 07:58 PM

Storm/Forge and Storm/Logan are two bad pairings, in my opinion. Actually, Logan with anyone is a bad pairing, he should always be single. Storm/Black Panther could work, and not because the two are blacks, but the way it was done, in such a rush, retconning so much, and written so badly by Hudlin, only to boost sales, makes it impossible for me to enjoy it.

SUPERECWFAN1

12-10-2006, 07:59 PM

Ororo would be wasted "calming" that little troll. Better she and T'Challa are together and stoking the fires of their love passion.

Uhhh ok. Can't have the Wolverine ruining the love passion.

How many "people" would support a Ms Marvel/Bishop romance? I could count their number on one hand. All I would need to do is form a circle with my forefinger and thumb and there you'd have it. Why then would a fan of T'Challa and Ororo want to see Ororo paired with a character that is so completely ill-suited for her?

If it was well written and actually had better build and all...yeah I can see a Bishop/Carol Danvers romance. Because Carol was and is a military girl and knows that life. Bishop is a military man as well. So they both have similar traits that a writer can make work .

Forge and Ororo is played out. He had his chance. He blew it. Mystique is still available. He should go for it

I feel Forge will be the guy that a future writer will use if they wanna end the Storm/Panther marriage. Because he obviously feels something and all. Gotta keep the failsafe out there. Theres always a backward way to retcon something as the ole sayin goes.

Effect

12-10-2006, 08:06 PM

sinjection

12-10-2006, 08:14 PM

First, the replacement of T'Challa was a editorial decision to boost sales on the stagnant title, not Priest's. And I don't feel the courtship was handled well under Hudlin. Sorry, it's my opinion. Storm deserved better. I'm not really all that against her relationship with him, if she wasn't so mishandled by Hudlin. It seems he hasn't read any of the stories that she's been involved in since her creation.

And the reason I threw in mixed is because I'm more than just black and white, I'm also Puerto Rican, and I embrace all of my heritages. I'm not any of them, but all of them. Yes, I knew the root word from which Mullato is coined from. But thanks for the lesson.

Ororo's features, ie. Her blue, asian shaped eyes, her white hair, her caucasian shaped nose are all aspects of her mutation being so intune with the planet and all of the residents, she's meant to reflect aspects of all races. She's meant to reflect the "earth goddess" she so often refers to.

So replacing the African T'Challa with a bi-racial U.S. citizen was an editorial decision to boost the Panther title's "stagnant sales". I'd always said that if Kirby had created the Panther as a "Tarzan-type"...a white man ruling over a nation of black Africans, the larger comicbook-buying demographic would have more interest in him as a character. I guess "they" (Marvel), couldn't bring themselves to replace T'Challa with a white guy, so they went for the next best option. And now, Hudlin has written a Black Panther who is "too black, too strong". Because of this, the larger comicbook-buying demographic has tried to dismiss him as a no-talent, race-baiter. Priest was destroying T'Challa and would have disgraced Ororo. She was already crushed when Forge - jealous of Bishop as he was - hurriedly proposed marriage to Storm only to retract that proposal just as quickly. Priest was going to compound her pain. Hudlin rescued Storm from a world of hurt and restored the Panther's manhood. He is the author to write the Panther AND Storm. There is no one better qualified to do so. NO ONE.

Storm's eyes are almond shaped. The eyes of African people are almond-shaped. Asiatic eyes are more slender in appearance. Her eyes and her hair are a result of a genetic mutation. I don't see that genetic mutation as making any statement that she is representative of all peoples of planet Earth. Storm is a black woman in love with and married to the Panther, a black man. Such relationships are extremely rare in comics today. I celebrate that Hudlin was able to pull it off.

By the way, I see that you go by the name "Mariah" - a very pretty name. Mariah Carey is an extremely beautiful woman. Do you know that at the beginning of her singing career, she was marketed as "the white woman with the black woman's voice"...something along those lines. Black people could look at Mariah and see that she wasn't white. Sure enough, as time went on, the truth of her parentage was revealed and she proved to be bi-racial. When her career seemed to tank, it was black divas, Patti LaBelle among them, who nurtured her shattered psyche and helped her to regain her confidence and form. When Maurice Starr introduced New Kids On The Block to the world, he wanted music fans to listen to them before he allowed them to be seen. At first, listeners thought...nice, another young, black singing group. When Starr "lifted the curtain" so to speak, music fans, white music fans in particular, were thrilled beyond belief that those voices were coming out of white boys.

This is the mindset Hudlin is dealing with as he continues to boldly make the Black Panther AND Storm the characters they DESERVE to be.

Mariah

12-10-2006, 08:24 PM

Storm's eyes are almond shaped. The eyes of African people are almond-shaped. Asiatic eyes are more slender in appearance. Her eyes and her hair are a result of a genetic mutation. I don't see that genetic mutation as making any statement that she is representative of all peoples of planet Earth. Storm is a black woman in love with and married to the Panther, a black man. Such relationships are extremely rare in comics today. I celebrate that Hudlin was able to pull it off.
Hate to say this, but you're wrong. She has cat shaped eyes, not almond. She was originally intended to be a woman who changed into a black cat, but since there we're a lot of cat like characters emerging at that time, Len Wein and Dave Cockrum merged her with an Asian named Tsunami, and came up with Storm. Later issues, Chris Claremont stated that she had features based on all races of mankind. He was making her the Earth Goddess she so often refers to. Those are the facts.

Mariah

12-10-2006, 08:31 PM

By the way, I see that you go by the name "Mariah" - a very pretty name. Mariah Carey is an extremely beautiful woman. Do you know that at the beginning of her singing career, she was marketed as "the white woman with the black woman's voice"...something along those lines. Black people could look at Mariah and see that she wasn't white. Sure enough, as time went on, the truth of her parentage was revealed and she proved to be bi-racial. When her career seemed to tank, it was black divas, Patti LaBelle among them, who nurtured her shattered psyche and helped her to regain her confidence and form. When Maurice Starr introduced New Kids On The Block to the world, he wanted music fans to listen to them before he allowed them to be seen. At first, listeners thought...nice, another young, black singing group. When Starr "lifted the curtain" so to speak, music fans, white music fans in particular, were thrilled beyond belief that those voices were coming out of white boys.

This is the mindset Hudlin is dealing with as he continues to boldly make the Black Panther AND Storm the characters they DESERVE to be.
You're telling me something I knew all along. But she never hid her parentage. People assumed she was either white with a "black" voice, or was mixed. My mom knew right away, as did I. Ms. Patti is her god mother, btw.

The same could be said for Tina Marie, who, Motown wanted to showcase her vocal talents and not the color of her skin, didn't even put her picture on the cover of her first album. But I was always more a fan of New Edition.

And I don't feel Storm DESERVES to be downgraded as she has been.

sinjection

12-10-2006, 08:31 PM

Uhhh ok. Can't have the Wolverine ruining the love passion.

No worries.

That short little beer/hard-liquor swilling, smelly, hairy, stubby little troll sporting the bozo the clown haircut and trying desperately to bring Elvis Presley's sideburns back in style, couldn't ruin T'Challa's and Ororo's "love thang" even if he tried. He tried. He failed.

sinjection

12-10-2006, 08:33 PM

Hate to say this, but you're wrong. She has cat shaped eyes, not almond. She was originally intended to be a woman who changed into a black cat, but since there we're a lot of cat like characters emerging at that time, Len Wein and Dave Cockrum merged her with an Asian named Tsunami, and came up with Storm. Later issues, Chris Claremont stated that she had features based on all races of mankind. He was making her the Earth Goddess she so often refers to. Those are the facts.

No Mariah, you're wrong. Ororo has cat-shaped irises and pupils. Her eyes are almond-shaped. That is, the form of her "outer eye" is almond-shaped as is usually the case where African people are concerned.

SUPERECWFAN1

12-10-2006, 08:36 PM

So replacing the African T'Challa with a bi-racial U.S. citizen was an editorial decision to boost the Panther title's "stagnant sales". I'd always said that if Kirby had created the Panther as a "Tarzan-type"...a white man ruling over a nation of black Africans, the larger comicbook-buying demographic would have more interest in him as a character. I guess "they" (Marvel), couldn't bring themselves to replace T'Challa with a white guy, so they went for the next best option.

What about Luke Cage and the fact he and Iron Fist managed to support a series that lasted 125 issues ? Look at an earlier post...some characters can not support solo books. Panther's had solo books and the Preist one as much as you hate it, achieved its best success.

And now, Hudlin has written a Black Panther who is "too black, too strong". Because of this, the larger comicbook-buying demographic has tried to dismiss him as a no-talent, race-baiter.

Who said this ? No one did. Grasping at straws claiming the entire comics market has it in for Hudlin is pretty wild. My god...if they did would the mega-hyped #18 sold as well as it did ? No one cares really on a grand scale about Panther. He's a great character but as posted earlier solo series by some characters just don't work.

Priest was destroying T'Challa and would have disgraced Ororo. She was already crushed when Forge - jealous of Bishop as he was - hurriedly proposed marriage to Storm only to retract that proposal just as quickly. Priest was going to compound her pain. Hudlin rescued Storm from a world of hurt and restored the Panther's manhood. He is the author to write the Panther AND Storm. There is no one better qualified to do so. NO ONE.

Actually people will debate this. As I think Kurt Busiek , JMS , Dwayne McDuffie ,Peter David and others could have wrote Panther & Storm.

This is the mindset Hudlin is dealing with as he continues to boldly make the Black Panther AND Storm the characters they DESERVE to be.

I just wonder if the fans will care. Because many here sound alienated by what has happened. I wish Hudlin luck.

sinjection

12-10-2006, 08:48 PM

[QUOTE=Mariah;4096315
And I don't feel Storm DESERVES to be downgraded as she has been.[/QUOTE]

Then you should be celebrating Storm's marriage to T'Challa and her elevation to the elegant Queen of Mighty Wakanda as much as I am.

Storm was being severely downgraded and down-trodden in the pages of the X-Men. She was never involved in a healthy, romantic relationship with a male. She was either lusted after by some of her fellow mutants, extraterrestrials, interdimensionals and one vampire. She was disgraced when she seemed to be seducing the young brother of LifeGuard. Slipstream I believe they called the guy. Some X-fans suspected that Ororo had lesbian designs on Kitty Pryde and was involved in a lesbian relationship with Yukio.

What would you rather see...Storm in "The Arena" or Storm floating down majestically and beautifully adorned in magnificent wedding raiments to meet her ecstatically-happy husband-to-be on their wedding altar. If you choose "The Arena", then I'll have to wonder.....

John Nowak

12-10-2006, 09:24 PM

Most people would support any pairing I think as long as it's done well and readers are given a chance to get used to it.

Yeah, I think that's very true. Of course, there's all sorts of editorial issues to deal with, and as far as I know, Hudlin was given instructions along the lines of "Marry off the Black Panther and Storm. It has to happen in three issues. Make it happen."

Stuff like that isn't unusual when you're writing other people's characters, because business and marketing concerns are huge constraints. Under those conditions, it would be almost impossible to pull off a real relationship. It's easy to criticize professional writers, but Hudlin doesn't have the freedom someone has writing their own novels or fanfic.

What might have worked under those constraints is a loveless arranged or political marriage that eventually turned into an actual loving relationship.

Still, I'm amazed that the marriage of Storm, who is probably the most popular female character Marvel has, has generated so little fan buzz, and all of that was pretty negative. I don't see the marriage lasting too long; linking Storm and Black Panther didn't do Storm any good, and not many people care about Black Panther.

sinjection

12-10-2006, 09:32 PM

[QUOTE=SUPERECWFAN1;4096335]What about Luke Cage and the fact he and Iron Fist managed to support a series that lasted 125 issues ? Look at an earlier post...some characters can not support solo books. Panther's had solo books and the Preist one as much as you hate it, achieved its best success.
QUOTE]

Hmmm...what about Cage and Iron Fist? I don't know that I understand what it is you're saying here. I can almost compare what Priest did to the Panther with what the "gangsta rapper" did to Hip Hop Kulture and Rap Music. Recall the days when "Hammer" (M.C. Hammer) and "Young MC" were putting out music that entertained all of America's (and points beyond), youth while Public Enemy, Arrested Development and KRS One were creating music designed to inform, reform, educate and uplift black American youth, particularly, black American urban youth. This positive development came crashing down with the advent of the gangsta rapper. For all the good intentions of Tupac Shakur, he could not escape the scourge of the gangsta rapper. Suddenly instead of discussing Public Enemy's consciousness-raising music, people were discussing the East Coast vs West Coast feud, followed by the violent deaths of the two most prominent rappers at that time, Christopher Wallace - Notorious B.I.G. and the legendary Tupac Amaru Shakur. Rap Music went from Public Enemy's proud anthem "Fight The Power" to "bitches", "ho's", "bling-bling" and "bang-bang", drug use, irresponsible behavior, hatred, self-hatred and community destruction. This is the same kind of effect Christopher Priest had on the Panther during the 62 issues of his run.

Who called Hudlin a no-talent, race-baiter? I refer you to the Black Panther message board and suggest that you just surf other comicbook messageboards discussing Hudlin or Hudlin's Black Panther. You know from your participation in this forum that there is a hardcore resentment for Hudlin and the suggestion that everything he writes is tinged with his own racial/racist viewpoint.

At this time, Hudlin is the BEST author the Panther has ever had and will be for a long time. This can be debated, but as far as I'm concerned, the issue is closed to debate. Hudlin is MY choice. If he were able replaced by another writer - even if that writer is Dwayne McDuffie - I would immediately drop the title if I discerned the new writer deviating from the course set by Hudlin.

Not wanting to stray too far from the thread topic here, but expounding on the point I was making about how white audiences responded to Mariah Carey when they thought she was a "white woman with a black woman's voice" - presently, Joss Stone and to some extent, Kelly Clarkson (whatever that American Idol's name is), is filling that "yearning" - and how white audiences responded to New Kids On The Block, N'Sync, Backstreet Boys, O-Town, Justin Timberlake and other "urban-contemporary pop - whatever they're called - stars". David Goyer, the producer of the Blade movies related that when he pitched the movie and the character to New Line Entertainment, New Line execs asked if Goyer would consider making Blade a white guy. Those execs felt the movie would enjoy more success if fans saw a white Blade onscreen rather than a black Blade.

This is what Hudlin is facing. I commend him for his integrity and confidence and will continue to support his efforts. The only things that could make me drop Hudlin's title is the return of Ross to what he was in the Priest run, the return of the "White Wolf" to what he was in the Priest run or the unthinkable, Ramonda marrying Anton Pretorious. Other than that, Hudlin's Black Panther IS the Black Panther. And the marriage of Storm to the Black Panther is the best thing to happen in the Marvel Universe since I've been reading comics, in my opinion.

John Nowak

12-10-2006, 09:33 PM

It's too bad to, because I really enjoyed T'Challa under Priest's pen, but this series just doesn't do it for me. Maybe if they got a better writer it'd spark my interest.

I've always liked Priest's work, and I wish his Panther run was collected. Unfortunately, I didn't buy it, so I'm out of luck there. I've never heard someone say something bad about it beyond the usual nitpicks.

I was saddened to see Storm rushed off into this wedding, as she used to be one of my favorite characters growing up. Being a mixed girl reading comics, it's hard to come across a character with the same skin tone as you.

Yeah, it's funny what makes you connect with a character, isn't it? I've always liked Johnny Storm, because I watched a F4 cartoon religiously when I was a kid and I have an older sister named "Susan." When I was six, this was just the coolest thing in the world.

SUPERECWFAN1

12-10-2006, 09:54 PM

[QUOTE]
Hmmm...what about Cage and Iron Fist? I don't know that I understand what it is you're saying here. I can almost compare what Priest did to the Panther with what the "gangsta rapper" did to Hip Hop Kulture and Rap Music. Recall the days when "Hammer" (M.C. Hammer) and "Young MC" were putting out music that entertained all of America's (and points beyond), youth while Public Enemy, Arrested Development and KRS One were creating music designed to inform, reform, educate and uplift black American youth, particularly, black American urban youth. This positive development came crashing down with the advent of the gangsta rapper. For all the good intentions of Tupac Shakur, he could not escape the scourge of the gangsta rapper. Suddenly instead of discussing Public Enemy's consciousness-raising music, people were discussing the East Coast vs West Coast feud, followed by the violent deaths of the two most prominent rappers at that time, Christopher Wallace - Notorious B.I.G. and the legendary Tupac Amaru Shakur. Rap Music went from Public Enemy's proud anthem "Fight The Power" to "bitches", "ho's", "bling-bling" and "bang-bang", drug use, irresponsible behavior, hatred, self-hatred and community destruction. This is the same kind of effect Christopher Priest had on the Panther during the 62 issues of his run.

Hmmm in all that the many who have read Black Panther have never told me any of that during Preist's run on the book. In various threads I've read many state he dealed with many themes in his series.

Who called Hudlin a no-talent, race-baiter? I refer you to the Black Panther message board and suggest that you just surf other comicbook messageboards discussing Hudlin or Hudlin's Black Panther. You know from your participation in this forum that there is a hardcore resentment for Hudlin and the suggestion that everything he writes is tinged with his own racial/racist viewpoint.

The facts I know about Hudlin are that Lying in the Gutters on this forum detailed his used alias to push the series on forums. That many have picked apart things continuty wise as well regarding his Black Panther on here as well. People have said they feel that way with how Hudlin writes each story-arc as I recall in other threads , which is their right. Un-popular creators take heat. Its how ya deal with the heat that matters. Chuck Austen pretty much cussed some online fans out and stopped doing much online interviews as he did the high profile X-Men gig.

In all I think his faults are that many online fans aren't into his Black Panther and are very vocal. Which happens online. The added heat to the fire makes it easier for fans to torch him. Because they know they can. The online fanbase can be pretty vocal. When Mark Waid was gonna be fired off Fantastic Four 2 to 3 years ago , online fans became very angry and protested it. Newsrama and Marvel's server went down due to backlash.

Hudlin's not the 1st to suffer the heat. Theres been Bruce Jones , Chuck Austen and Devin Grayson who have taken internet heat.

At this time, Hudlin is the BEST author the Panther has ever had and will be for a long time. This can be debated, but as far as I'm concerned, the issue is closed to debate. Hudlin is MY choice. If he were able replaced by another writer - even if that writer is Dwayne McDuffie - I would immediately drop the title if I discerned the new writer deviating from the course set by Hudlin.

Which is your right . No one said you had to keep collecting the title or not if Hudlin ever leaves it. Hell least you won't collect it and come on angry over changes and all. Which is how internet heat starts for some. Comic fans like change....they just want the change to evolve and be natural. Sometimes they get pissed if the change is a 2 issue story and the characters motivation and dialogue becomes something else.

Other than that, Hudlin's Black Panther IS the Black Panther. And the marriage of Storm to the Black Panther is the best thing to happen in the Marvel Universe since I've been reading comics, in my opinion

How long have you been reading comics ? Because a lot of newer fans can handle change easy. The older ones who have stood and read character A really don't like when he's written wrong. As a fan who loved Austen's X-Run I really didn't have the attachment many had to Polaris and how he wrote her as a raving pyscho. I'd laugh at the fans who hated it but I can see they had feelings because they read the X-Books a clear decade before me and understand the character a lot.

A lot look at Black Panther and as they see him and Storm they just have different feelings concerning how they should be changed and moved. They get angry if the character they have followed for years is pushed to far from their essance and made something beyond what they will.

For many its Storm. For me its Spiderman. The changes were too much , too fast and done with no thought except to spike sales I think. So I dropped the character I was a fan of for over 12 to 13 years.

sinjection

12-11-2006, 05:56 AM

Most people would support any pairing I think as long as it's done well and readers are given a chance to get used to it. That's the key I think. Showing that the two work well together and can be together. You don't just throw any two characters together and say they are a couple. You take time to develop it and allow the reader to see that development without making either person look bad as a result. It's seeing the development of the relationship that helps and does wonders in any story format either it be comics, novel or a show.

Not true.

I submit Bruce Timm's excellent animated series, the "Justice League" as "Exhibit A"

1) Though it was clear the series was to be based on, but not entirely faithful tothe DC comicbook version, most "people" in the larger comicbook-buying demographic railed and whined from the "Secret Origins" episode of "Justice League" to the "Destroyer" episode, the final installment of the "Justice League Unlimited" series, about the Green Lantern John Stewart being chosen over Hal Jordan and Kyle Rayner. Even after Bruce Timm explained that John Stewart had always been his favorite Green Lantern and for that reason among others, Stewart was chosen to be in the series, dissatisfaction continued to rain down upon Timm and his staff for choosing Stewart over the others. No surprise, I feel that Timm and staff chose extremely well when they chose Stewart over the others.

2) From the "Secret Origins" episodes of "Justice League", Timm and staff were laying the foundations for what would become a romance between John Stewart and Shayera Hol. The hints were subtle, but discernable. The relationship was not "rushed" at all. Stewart and Hol were often together and although their mutual attraction made them feel awkward when in the presence of the other - an awkwardness that often caused them to bicker, sometimes for minor reasons - they worked well together as a team.

3) Finally, Timm and staff put the situation out there in the open in the JL episode, "Wild Cards, pt. 2". Stewart and Hol probed the other through hints in conversation and "loaded questions" to try to get the other to admit what they were feeling for one another. It took Stewart's near-fatal encounter with a Joker-rigged explosive booby-trap for him to finally "fess up" to his feelings for Hol, and for him to let her know that he knew she felt the same way about him as well. This relationship had been building over the course of some 46 episodes over two seasons of JL the animated series. Strong hints of their building relationship were given in the following episodes: "In Blackest Night" - No member of the Justice League was more adamant about GL's innocence of the crime of which he was accused of committing than was Shayera. She even physically punished Stewart's fellow Lanterns for not supporting him at the trial. "War World" - A mishap forces GL and Hawkgirl to work together to rescue two of their teammates. Their mutual attraction boiling unspoken under the surface, it causes an energy that incites their constant bickering, but they work well as a team and accomplish their mission in spite of it. "Legends, pt 1 & pt 2"- When Shayera is attacked by "Green Guardsman", she exclaims, "I don't know who you are, but you're no Green Lantern!" She wasn't referring to just any Green Lantern of the Corps, she was referring to "her" Green Lantern, John Stewart. It was Shayera Hol who broke the news about the "Justice Guild" to Stewart. It was Shayera Hol who attempted to comfort Stewart at the grave sites. And at the conclusion of the episode, it was Hol who again, sought out a grieving GL and comforted him with kind words and a kind, innocent physical gesture of caring. She rested her head on his shoulder as they looked out into space. "Metamorphosis"- Shayera questions GL about his feelings when she noticed the sloppy way he handled an armored car robbery. They discussed something about "roads less traveled". It was getting mushy. "Injustice For All"- "Copperhead" - I believe that was the villain's name, is threatening to bite Hawkgirl who was hovering in mid-air. GL arrives and warns Copperhead that if he does anything to Hawkgirl, he won't live to hit the ground after she drops him. "The Savage Time, Pt. 1 and Pt. 2"-
Shayera is anguished when Stewart, his Power Ring exhausted, tells her to leave hiim behind and save the soldiers she was helping. When Hol saves John in the second episode, they share a very obvious tender moment. "Only A Dream, pt. 2" - When the League is attacked by a psychic foe who kills his victims through nightmare hallucinations, it was the Lantern who Hol first called for when she needed help. When J'onn was having trouble reaching her, an agitated and frightened (for Shayera) Stewart was determined to reach her "by any means necessary." He told everyone to "get out of the way" and opened his Power Ring up full on the barrier preventing them from helping Shayera. There was the epsiode, "Brave and the Bold" I believe it was, when Stewart angered his teammates by making them train as a fighting unit. When they all went their own separate ways, Shayera was with John on a cliff. She told him, "You don't care about me. You don't care about any of us." John replied, "I'd give my LIFE for you!" Shayera, heartbreaking, told John, "You don't know what you're sayiing." and flew away. She wanted him to tell her then and there what she wanted to hear him say, which was that he DID care for her. In fact, he loved her. There was the Christmastime episode "Comfort and Joy" which featured Shayera kissing an unconscious (and unknowing), GL on the cheek. All of this build up culminated in "Wild Cards, pt. 2".

So, even after all of that build up, the working together, the slow pace of what was obviously a love relationship between the two characters, when it finally culminated with the climactic kiss in "Wild Cards, pt 2", there was much howling and discontent from many "people" in the larger comicbook-buying demographic. A parent of and member of the larger comicbook-buying demographic, wrote a letter to Timm and staff telling them that it wasn't necessarily a good idea to show a black man kissing a white woman on a children's show. We're talking about a white woman with huge wings on her back.

Others felt that Shayera was betraying Hawkman. It was clear from the beginning of JL the animated series, that this Hawkgirl was NOT the Shiera Hol of the comicbooks (fake wings vs real wings, for one). Timm's Shayera was based on the Hawkgirl from the comicbooks. That still didn't seem to calm the prejudiced, bigoted and possibly racist members who comprise a very vocal segment of the larger comicbook-buying demographic.

You see, I DO know what I'm talking about afterall.

And how could I have forgotten the "Hearts and Minds" episodes? It begins with Hawkgirl and Lantern bickering as usual. Flash walks in eating and reading a comicbook. He tells them, "Could you two keep it down? You sound like an old, married couple!" At which point, Shayera and GL experience an awkward silence. Flash was able to see what was going on between the two of them. An emergency in a distant galaxy brings Shayera and John even closer when he temporarily loses his power/confidence in a fight with the villain of the story. A former flame of GL loses patience with him, but Shayera stands buy John. He realizes this and knows the reason why this is. It was the imminent threat of Shayera being in severe jeopardy at the hands of the villain of the story, that finally caused Stewart to regain his confidence and save the woman he loved. As they were traveling back to Earth in John's containment field, Shayera and John share another very telling, romantic moment.

Still, that wasn't good enough for some "people".

Yikes!!! I keep forgetting key episodes. "A Better World, pts 1 and 2"- The "Justice Lords" Hawkgirl and GL were already "getting it on", but their Justice League counterparts hadn't yet reached that point. When GL discovered the injured Hawkgirl lying in the alternate universe's Arkham Asylum, the gamut of emotions he was feeling showed on his face. When the Justice League trapped the Justice Lords in the same trap they used to ambush the League, GL hesitated for an instant when the Justice Lord Hawkgirl came busting through the door. Batman had to yell, "DO IT!!!" before Stewart could bring himself to fire on "Justice Lord", Hawkgirl with his Power Ring.

Hypocrites abound in the larger comicbook-buying demographic.

sinjection

12-11-2006, 07:11 AM

I was saddened to see Storm rushed off into this wedding, as she used to be one of my favorite characters growing up. Being a mixed girl reading comics, it's hard to come across a character with the same skin tone as you.

It occurs to me. If I'd written the following...

I was saddened to see Storm being pawed and slobbered on by Forge, as she is the premier black super-character (male or female), in comicbooks today. Being a black American comicbook fan, it's hard to come across a situation where a highly-visible black female super-character (or female super-character of color), is NOT being written in some romantic circumstance with a white male.

...someone would waste no time at all suggesting that I was possibly, probably racist. In fact, as much as already happened. Because I am unflagging in my support of Hudlin and what he has done for one of my FAVORITE comicbook characters, T'Challa, the Black Panther, I have been asked if I was Reggie Hudlin posting under an assumed identity. Because I am a fan of the Storm/Panther marriage and have expressed the hope that Cecelia Reyes and Angela Del Toro are able to find romance with strong, Puerto Rican or Latino males, rather than with "Daredevil II" or the beastiality-like relationship Reyes has with that manimal, Hank McCoy, some have attempted to associate me with certain undesirable elements that plague polite society.

Lucky for me, I have thick skin and broad shoulders. I can take it.

Mariah

12-11-2006, 07:27 AM

Then you should be celebrating Storm's marriage to T'Challa and her elevation to the elegant Queen of Mighty Wakanda as much as I am.

Storm was being severely downgraded and down-trodden in the pages of the X-Men. She was never involved in a healthy, romantic relationship with a male. She was either lusted after by some of her fellow mutants, extraterrestrials, interdimensionals and one vampire. She was disgraced when she seemed to be seducing the young brother of LifeGuard. Slipstream I believe they called the guy. Some X-fans suspected that Ororo had lesbian designs on Kitty Pryde and was involved in a lesbian relationship with Yukio.

What would you rather see...Storm in "The Arena" or Storm floating down majestically and beautifully adorned in magnificent wedding raiments to meet her ecstatically-happy husband-to-be on their wedding altar. If you choose "The Arena", then I'll have to wonder.....
You don't have to be a queen to be regal, or classy. And you can't control who you're attracted to, no matter skin color or gender. Love is love. Her being attracted to the lifeguard's brother, or Forge, or T'Challa, or whomever. Love is love. If you base your opinions on a person's relationship on these things, and deem them less than worthy, then those are issues you have to work out on your own.

She was always portrayed as being asexual, yet everyone was attracted to her, and people has mistaken this as being bisexual. How is that defiling her character? By having her be attractive?

Her affairs with Kitty were never of the romantic persuasion. They we're maternal feelings, and anyone who thinks otherwise are just disgusting. As was the deep friendship with Yukio.

Personally, I always felt she was best left alone. She was strong, confident, regal. Even with the mohawk and the leather get up she portrayed a classiness that defied description. Powerless, she stood head to head with the biggest names in the Marvel Universe, and commanded respect.

sinjection

12-11-2006, 07:32 AM

You don't have to be a queen to be regal, or classy. And you can't control who you're attracted to, no matter skin color or gender. Love is love. Her being attracted to the lifeguard's brother, or Forge, or T'Challa, or whomever. Love is love. If you base your opinions on a person's relationship on these things, and deem them less than worthy, then those are issues you have to work out on your own.

She was always portrayed as being asexual, yet everyone was attracted to her, and people has mistaken this as being bisexual. How is that defiling her character? By having her be attractive?

Her affairs with Kitty were never of the romantic persuasion. They we're maternal feelings, and anyone who thinks otherwise are just disgusting. As was the deep friendship with Yukio.

Personally, I always felt she was best left alone. She was strong, confident, regal. Even with the mohawk and the leather get up she portrayed a classiness that defied description. Powerless, she stood head to head with the biggest names in the Marvel Universe, and commanded respect.

T'Challa "sucks in bed"? If the violently ecstatic thunderstorms that occur while Storm and the Panther are making love is any indication, I think Ororo would tell you that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

And now, I see you've changed your statement from "T'Challa sucks in bed" to "Free Storm". That's exactly what Hudlin has done. He has freed Storm in much the very same way T'Challa freed his mother Ramonda from the clutches of the white racist, rapist who kidnapped her and sexually tormented her for decades in South Africa. Storm would borrow the line from Kanye West's "'Touch The Sky"..."It feels good to be Home, baby!!! It feels good to be Home!!!"

The X-Men were ruining Ororo. They had made her little more than a slut. Hudlin has lifted her out of that "mutant gutter trap" and placed her on the shining throne of Mighty Wakanda, married to a man who suits her perfectly in every way.

End of story.

Mariah

12-11-2006, 07:36 AM

T'Challa "sucks in bed"? If the violently ecstatic thunderstorms that occur while Storm and the Panther are making love is any indication, I think Ororo would tell you that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

The X-Men were ruining Ororo. They had made her little more than a slut. Hudlin has lifted her out of that "mutant gutter trap" and placed her on the shining throne of Mighty Wakanda, married to a man who suits her perfectly in every way.

End of story.
You're strange. I think I'm ending this discussion right here. Toodles.

Edit. And how many women has T'Challa been with? Probably hundreds, but that's alright, cause he's a man.

Blackcat

12-11-2006, 07:36 AM

Didn't Vindicator and Gardian stay married up until Gardian died?

Effect

12-11-2006, 07:44 AM

You're strange. I think I'm ending this discussion right here. Toodles.

Edit. And how many women has T'Challa been with? Probably hundreds, but that's alright, cause he's a man.

Might be the for the best. Talking to sinjection is like hitting your head against a brick wall since he refuses to even look at the situation objectively to any degree. Also willing it seems to unnecessarily lecture someone as if he is doing them a favor on topics no one has brought up while clearly ignoring direct questions in an attempt to make himself look good. I find that both disturbing and even insulting at times as well. His close mindedness is scary at times and seems to be so blinded by race I think. sinjection do us all a favor and save it.

sinjection

12-11-2006, 07:46 AM

You're strange. I think I'm ending this discussion right here. Toodles.

Edit. And how many women has T'Challa been with? Probably hundreds, but that's alright, cause he's a man.

You write that a comicbook character "sucks in bed" and then have the audacity to suggest that I'm "strange". Now, that is strange and amusing, too. Edit...and don't try to deny the fact that before you changed your personal quote thing to "Free Storm" it had read "T'Challa Sucks In Bed" -- sort of the same thing you did when you replaced the word "mulatto" you had originally used to describe yourself in a post, to "mixed". It would be just like a hypocritical, deceitful member of the larger comicbook-buying demographic to do such a thing.

T'Challa has had a normal, healthy sex life, something the X-writers neglected where Ororo was concerned. They didn't give her a loving relationship. They constantly had her being lusted after, seducing and being seduced and behaving so disgracefully at certain points, that even her so-called fans were suggesting she was lesbian or bi-sexual.

Thank goodness for Reginald Hudlin. He needs to do a total revamp on ALL of Marvel's black characters as far as I'm concerned.

sinjection

12-11-2006, 07:50 AM

Might be the for the best. Talking to sinjection is like hitting your head against a wall since he refuses to even look at the situation objectively to any degree and is welling it seems to unnecessarily willing to lecture someone as if he is doing them a favor on topics no one has brought up while clearly ignoring direction questions. I find that both disturbing and even insulting at times as well. sinjection do us all a favor and save it.

How convenient that the author of the foregoing submits this post on the same morning I post a rather lengthy and powerful rebuttal to one of his posts. Typical.

He suggested that fans would accept "diverse" romantic pairings if they were given the opportunity to watch it develop, understand it and digest it. I disproved this by using the John Stewart/Shayera Hol romance that occured in the animated series Justice League. Clearly, some people simply cannot handle being told when they're not necessarily correct on an issue.

SUPERECWFAN1

12-11-2006, 07:55 AM

You're strange. I think I'm ending this discussion right here. Toodles.

I've re-read your whole comment. I can't see where you even came close to what he posted. That scares me a lot. Is he reading things into online postings I wonder ?

Mariah

12-11-2006, 07:55 AM

Edit...and don't try to deny the fact that before you changed your personal quote thing to "Free Storm" it had read "T'Challa Sucks In Bed". It would be just like a hypocritical, deceitful member of the larger comicbook-buying demographic to do such a thing.

Who said anything about me denying it? I put free Storm as it would be a more intelligent way to express my disgust over the handling of her, and this relationship. How is that decietful or hypocritical?

SUPERECWFAN1

12-11-2006, 07:58 AM

...someone would waste no time at all suggesting that I was possibly, probably racist. In fact, as much as already happened. Because I am unflagging in my support of Hudlin and what he has done for one of my FAVORITE comicbook characters, T'Challa, the Black Panther, I have been asked if I was Reggie Hudlin posting under an assumed identity. Because I am a fan of the Storm/Panther marriage and have expressed the hope that Cecelia Reyes and Angela Del Toro are able to find romance with strong, Puerto Rican or Latino males, rather than with "Daredevil II" or the beastiality-like relationship Reyes has with that manimal, Hank McCoy, some have attempted to associate me with certain undesirable elements that plague polite society.

Lucky for me, I have thick skin and broad shoulders. I can take it.

But why should they find Puerto Rican and Latino men in the Marvel Universe ? What is wrong with Reyes being with Hank McCoy at the end of X-Men:The End and Del Toro seeing Matt Murdoch ? Why must they be within their own race according to your belief ?

SUPERECWFAN1

12-11-2006, 08:02 AM

Who said anything about me denying it? I put free Storm as it would be a more intelligent way to express my disgust over the handling of her, and this relationship. How is that decietful or hypocritical?

Ohhh......lol. Darn I wondered what he meant. That comment sounds funny.

sinjection

12-11-2006, 08:02 AM

Who said anything about me denying it? I put free Storm as it would be a more intelligent way to express my disgust over the handling of her, and this relationship. How is that decietful or hypocritical?

I'm not for your silly games. You said you ended our discussion. Since you've reneged on your position, I'll end this discussion myself. "Toodles".

tetragene

12-11-2006, 08:06 AM

sinjection, why exactly does T'Chala fit Ororo so perfectly? I've been reading through the thread and have yet to see you really address this is an obvious way they doesn't read as "because he's black"

I think Storm and Black Panther make a very attractive couple. I was never really into Forge, always thought he was pretty lame--but the years the two have been involved with one another (whether as an "official" couple or not) in the comics would make them ending up together make more sense.

I don't really understand how you can see how the Storm and BP relationship as a natural progression or how it was meant to happen (or how it really was the "wedding of the century"). It was so rushed. Which is really the problem people have with it and not because they are "threatened by black male sexuality" (as Hudlin so "eloquently" accused fans of) or because they want her to be "tied down to a white man" (which FYI, Forge isn't Caucasian he's Native American--and quite a number of fans wanted her to be with Bishop...who's she's by and large she's had a LOT more interaction with). They were together in a Marvel Team-up issue--it wasn't touched on for a long time afterwards or to much degree (as of X-Men vol 2 #60 or so, Storm says she and the Black Panther had a "dalliance, nothing more, nothing less"). Then all of a sudden there's the arc in X-Men and the BP issues...add in a retconned limited series where the two are presented as teenage lovers and suddenly the two are supposed to be married?

Where's all the development of them as a "current" couple? What difference does it make if they loved each other as kids or dated as teenagers? They aren't teenagers at the moment...they're adults, who've not interacted all that much in their young-adult to adult progression. Invis Woman & Mr. Fantastic at least had a while to develop as a "then" couple before tying the knot, the same with Spider-Man & Mary Jane, and Cyclops & Jean Grey.

I think you're missing that whole aspect of the "Storm & BP debate". I think attaching "racism" to the topic is just an easy way of labeling anyone who isn't in favor of their union as "flawed" and "wrong."

sinjection

12-11-2006, 08:09 AM

Ohhh......lol. Darn I wondered what he meant. That comment sounds funny.

Right.

When it's believed that a Hudlin supporter was making what appeared at that time, to have been weird, strange and disturbing statements in response to something absolutely ridiculous another poster - who incidently is favored by the anti-Hudlin contingent - had posted, then the Hudlin supporter is "prejudged" in predictable anti-Hudlin prejudicial fashion, for something he did not do.

Then, when the anti-Hudlin poster's (attempted set-up?) personal statement she'd posted - "T'Challa Sucks In Bed" - is undeniably tied to her, now those who support her reward her for that "strange" statement and say it's funny.

You see? I had you all pegged all along. Hypocrites.

sinjection

12-11-2006, 08:32 AM

tetragene, you've asked why exactly does T'Challa fit Ororo so perfectly? I think you've gone a very long way in answering your own question.

You wrote: "I think Storm and Black Panther make a very attractive couple. I was never really into Forge, always thought he was pretty lame..."

Not much there I find to argue with. Now as to the rest of that statement: "...but the years the two have been involved with one another (whether as an "official couple or not) in the comics would make them ending up together make more sense."

In more than one comicbook dealing with T'Challa and Storm, there were "flashbacks" to their initial meeting as youths. Hudlin didn't write these flashbacks. In fact, Hudlin didn't pen the circumstances of their initial meeting. I believe Chris Claremont did that. It seemed that whenever Ororo spoke of that time, she referred to it as a "dalliance" that didn't seem to mean much. A definition of "dalliance" is "amorous play". If the character Wolverine can "evolve" from a beserker wildman who was suffering from amnesia, to where today, he is now an indestructible, immortal mutant who has lived for better than 100 years, why can't Hudlin build upon the "dalliance" and make it something more close to what it ACTUALLY WAS, a youthful love affair?

"Time". Critics of the Panther/Storm relationship and marriage always cite that there wasn't enough "time" for them to get to know one another, to fall in love with one another, blah, blah, blah.... I would like to refer you to a post I contributed just this morning in response to another poster who suggested that if readers had been given the opportunity to observe and digest the Panther/Storm relationship over "time", that they'd likely be more accepting of it. I refuted that assertion. I used the Bruce Timm Justice League animated series as proof of my position.

I won't re-write that entire post here, but I ask that you read it. If after you've done so, you still have questions concerning my position, I'll be happy to address them.

sinjection

12-11-2006, 08:43 AM

[QUOTE=SUPERECWFAN1;4097519]But why should they find Puerto Rican and Latino men in the Marvel Universe ? QUOTE]

Any reason why "they" shouldn't try to find a Puerto Rican or Latino male for Reyes or Del Toro, rather than pairing them with the males they are currently with? Sticking Del Toro with Murdock - if that's who this Daredevil is - would be taking the easy, predictable and lazy way out. Creating a Puerto Rican love interest - if she has to have a love interest at all - for Del Toro and watching that relationship develop alongside her life as the White Tiger, would be interesting for fans such as myself, to read about.

By the way, If T'Challa is some sort of "man-slut" what does that make Matt Murdock? In an issue of Wolverine, a brainwashed Logan - as Wolverine - was sent by an entity that I assume was the Hand, to kill Murdock. While sitting astride Murdock's body, claws poised to rip out his throat, Wolverine was catching the traces of scents left behind by the many, many female guests to Murdock's place. Through the haze of his mental hi-jacking, Wolverine was still able to ask himself the following question, "How could he be getting so much of something that I've barely had?"

SUPERECWFAN1

12-11-2006, 08:49 AM

Right.

When it's believed that a Hudlin supporter was making what appeared at that time, to have been weird, strange and disturbing statements in response to something absolutely ridiculous another poster - who incidently is favored by the anti-Hudlin contingent - had posted, then the Hudlin supporter is "prejudged" in predictable anti-Hudlin prejudicial fashion, for something he did not do.

She posted T'Challa wasn't good in the sack. It was a funny comment and I didn't see it in the post. Then she admitted where it was at and she placed Free Storm there. The fact these are 2 make believe characters in a comic book has by=passed you I'm sure. I used to do fake threads where I ripped Sins Past and Civil War. No one came on angry because I took fun shots at the characters and had them acting silly. ( The Civil War one is recent....do a search...I had it placed as a Tony Stark interview in some ways.)

Then, when the anti-Hudlin poster's (attempted set-up?) personal statement she'd posted - "T'Challa Sucks In Bed" - is undeniably tied to her, now those who support her reward her for that "strange" statement and say it's funny.

It was because the way you reacted made it funny. Had you not reacted so strong over it , odds are no one would have saw it . Hell I didn't...til you brought it up all angry and fan outrage that T'Challa does not suck in bed. It made me laugh as I'm sure others have as well.

You see? I had you all pegged all along. Hypocrites.

Really because thus far you've dodged questions many have presented . One must look inside themselves before they toss out accusations.

SUPERECWFAN1

12-11-2006, 08:56 AM

Any reason why "they" shouldn't try to find a Puerto Rican or Latino male for Reyes or Del Toro, rather than pairing them with the males they are currently with? Sticking Del Toro with Murdock - if that's who this Daredevil is - would be taking the easy, predictable and lazy way out. Creating a Puerto Rican love interest - if she has to have a love interest at all - for Del Toro and watching that relationship develop alongside her life as the White Tiger, would be interesting for fans such as myself, to read about.

Which is ok. But what if the love interest was a black man ? Or was Iron Fist , Danny Rand instead of Murdock ? Does it make a differance if the series is written well and the 2 characters are written as a couple very well ?

By the way, If T'Challa is some sort of "man-slut" what does that make Matt Murdock? In an issue of Wolverine, a brainwashed Logan - as Wolverine - was sent by an entity that I assume was the Hand, to kill Murdock. While sitting astride Murdock's body, claws poised to rip out his throat, Wolverine was catching the traces of scents left behind by the many, many female guests to Murdock's place. Through the haze of his mental hi-jacking, Wolverine was still able to ask himself the following question, "How could he be getting so much of something that I've barely had?"

Matt's got it I'm sure. He's went with Black Widow,Karen Page,Electra and Nina. Now theres another woman in this story-arc ahead. Murdock has the charms to lure the women. Hell in the last Bendis issues it was said that Matt suffered a nervous breakdown when Page died and thats why he tried to settle down with Nina and marry her.

sinjection

12-11-2006, 09:00 AM

sinjection

12-11-2006, 09:07 AM

Matt's got it I'm sure. He's went with Black Widow,Karen Page,Electra and Nina. Now theres another woman in this story-arc ahead. Murdock has the charms to lure the women. Hell in the last Bendis issues it was said that Matt suffered a nervous breakdown when Page died and thats why he tried to settle down with Nina and marry her.

In Murdock's case, his sexual conquests - those you've mentioned and others we may not know about - makes him a stud. Probably because he's a "studly white guy". But it's a different story where T'Challa is concerned eh? Marvel's femme fatales have all remarked how "hot" they find him to be. The only other female character he's been with - besides Ororo - has been Monica Lynne. In the Storm mini-series - a most excellent mini-series by the way - T'Challa told Ororo that he was "with experience". So, simply because T'Challa was "with experience" when he first met Ororo - that "experience" could have been one encounter with one female for all we know - was involved with Monica Lynne, and has caught the eye of more than a few of Marvel's female characters, to some "people", that makes T'Challa some sort of "horn dog".

Another example of hypocrisy from some in the larger comicbook-buying demographic and those who support their viewpoint.

twilight

12-11-2006, 09:18 AM

Sinjection I feel compelled to ask this question.

Is your real name Reginald Hudlin?

SUPERECWFAN1

12-11-2006, 09:19 AM

You seem to leap to a lot of conclusions. The fact that Storm and Panther are two fictional characters has not "passed" me. You're sure of nothing. In fact, I was chuckling when I posted my response to her post suggesting that I was "strange" and I replied, "You post that a comicbook character "sucks in bed" and I'm "strange". I then remarked that for her to do such a thing was "strange and amusing, too." Which it was. Control your anti-Hudlin/anti-Hudlin supporter passions.

Below is your statement. Your response made me laugh . Which made it funny. I couldn't help but laugh as you went after the comment above the avator she had as it finally dawned on me what you and her meant.

Sinjection post:

[QUOTE]You write that a comicbook character "sucks in bed" and then have the audacity to suggest that I'm "strange". Now, that is strange and amusing, too. Edit...and don't try to deny the fact that before you changed your personal quote thing to "Free Storm" it had read "T'Challa Sucks In Bed" -- sort of the same thing you did when you replaced the word "mulatto" you had originally used to describe yourself in a post, to "mixed". It would be just like a hypocritical, deceitful member of the larger comicbook-buying demographic to do such a thing.

T'Challa has had a normal, healthy sex life, something the X-writers neglected where Ororo was concerned. They didn't give her a loving relationship. They constantly had her being lusted after, seducing and being seduced and behaving so disgracefully at certain points, that even her so-called fans were suggesting she was lesbian or bi-sexual.

.

I've no desire to search for any of your "fake threads". Much of what you have to say in those you've shared with me come off phony enough as it is. How on earth are you able to detect if I've overreacted to something or not? Are you somehow able to see me sitting at this computer and observe my body language as I type?

To each his own. I've been nice and casual to you the entire way as people here can see. We've debated the topic of the marriage and other marriages in the Marvel Universe .

Today, I have responded to no less than two posts addressing the topic, not attempting to engage in personal attack against me. Indeed, I have responded with answers to all posts having questions of me with regard to this topic.

I've missed it somewhere.....where are we attacking you ? I found the entire post funny. I admit I laughed at it when I came on and saw the posts with you and Mariah. But I didn't attack you and engange in a personal attack on you.

And I haven't. I don't agree on the B.P/Storm issue but hell I even said I don't care about it. Because time will tell the tale of whethor it works or not. Will the next EIC who follows Quesada stand by it ? Will the next writer who follows Hudlin if the BP title is still around , stand by it ?

Beast

12-11-2006, 09:23 AM

Sinjection I feel compelled to ask this question.

Is your real name Reginald Hudlin?
No, he simply shares the same ignorant 'Colors shouldn't mix' racist dogma that Reggie does.

I wish there was only one person so mired in hate for anyone that wasn't black, but alas it's not the case.

twilight

12-11-2006, 09:26 AM

No, he simply shares the same ignorant 'Colors shouldn't mix' racist dogma that Reggie does.

Of course they should mix.

The more mixing gets done the more we blend together making racism impossible.

Beast

12-11-2006, 09:28 AM

Of course they should mix.

The more mixing gets done the more we blend together making racism impossible.
Exactly. When we're all the same color, we can't discriminate against color. :D

SUPERECWFAN1

12-11-2006, 09:29 AM

In Murdock's case, his sexual conquests - those you've mentioned and others we may not know about - makes him a stud. Probably because he's a "studly white guy". But it's a different story where T'Challa is concerned eh? Marvel's femme fatales have all remarked how "hot" they find him to be. The only other female character he's been with - besides Ororo - has been Monica Lynne. In the Storm mini-series - a most excellent mini-series by the way - T'Challa told Ororo that he was "with experience". So, simply because T'Challa was "with experience" when he first met Ororo - that "experience" could have been one encounter with one female for all we know - was involved with Monica Lynne, and has caught the eye of more than a few of Marvel's female characters, to some "people", that makes T'Challa some sort of "horn dog".

I never really went in doubting T'Challa or whethor he had a lot of comic book women. The Daredevil thing was off the top of my head and I'm sure I missed a few. But it doesn't matter to me. Because I always loved Karen Page and Murdock as a couple and the death as Bendis done drove him into a nervous breakdown ! Which I thought with him becoming Kingpin of the city was just awesome work and that Karen's death may have had that effect on Matt's personal life and DD was a great stroke.

I don't really know how many or how many less he's had. In fact I didn't bring up Black Panther being a horndog. Look back where did I even say BP was a man ho or anything like this ?

Another example of hypocrisy from some in the larger comicbook-buying demographic and those who support their viewpoint.

What the hell is this debate about ? How many comic book babes each guy is getting ? As a fan I don't care rteally who Murdock and T'Challa have had personally.

Beast

12-11-2006, 10:09 AM

sinjection

12-11-2006, 10:32 AM

Of course they should mix.

The more mixing gets done the more we blend together making racism impossible.

You're attempting to be funny, or sarcasm. I don't really care which it is.

If on the other hand, you are being serious, you are in for a very rude awakening.

Perhaps you've never heard of the late Senator from South Carolina, Strom Thurmond. Thurmond lived (and probably died), as one of this nation's most recognizable Southern white racists.

The thing is, ol' Strom - like more than a few white Southern boys - seemed to have a secret, lustful eye when it came to black females. As a result of his lusts, Thurmond fathered a daughter with a black maid who worked in his household in 1925. This was a common occurence not just in the Southern states, but in the North as well. Wherever black women were in domestic servitude, she was often the prey of the white man of the house.

Thurmond acknowledged his "black daughter" as she has been called. However, the fact that he fathered a bi-racial child did nothing to change his racist attitude and actions.

I'm not surprised that an opinion such as the one you've expressed would come from an anti-Hudlin poster.

sinjection

12-11-2006, 10:33 AM

Exactly. When we're all the same color, we can't discriminate against color. :D

There's always religion, language, national origin...

Beast

12-11-2006, 10:35 AM

There's always religion, language, national origin...
Yeah, the things that really matter. Unlike color. Like Steven Colbert, I don't see color. :D

bluezulu

12-11-2006, 10:57 AM

bluezulu

12-11-2006, 11:01 AM

Well, even Storm was disgusted with Black Panther's concubines and commented about his man ho ways in the X-Men/Black Panther crossover. Which is why the sudden marriage between them after those issues makes even less since. There was visible contempt for T'Challa from Storm. And then suddenly it's kissy face marriage time. Again the whole problem isn't the relationship or the marriage, it's the hackneyed rush job.

------------------
Your single right now aren't you? I mean if you haven't gotten the business from a significant other about an ex then I don't know either your 12 or your lonely. Don't get pouty and contempt confused. Contempt is what you have against this character and the writer of the character. And how do you know anyway. I thought you don't read the book because how much you hate it? Its wild how the ones who "hate" the book the most quote it so much. But if you do read it and hate it then I don't know what to say about you but at least you read it and make informed comments unlike some posters like ahem effect.

Beast

12-11-2006, 11:15 AM

Wow Sinjection, thats all I can say. I am amazed how virtual uncomfortable you are making these posters. Some are even exposing themselves without even knowing it. To de-race storm, or to pick apart the quality of Tchalla is amazing as he is the definitive hero. Here is a man who is a honored King, husband, friend and teammate. He helps America despite having priorities in his own country. Despite not being super powered he has held his own against the greatest of foes and has a contingency plan for Galactus. He is a physicist and is one of Marvel's greatest minds and does not suffer from the personality quarks of say reed richards. He is selflis giving technological gifts to the fantastic four and the falcon. If you don't like the pairing of Black Panther and Storm because you prefer her to marry someone else fine. If you feel that the marriage was "rushed" thats cool as well because that was a marketing/editorial decision not a creative controlled factor. But if you have a problem with Tchalla the hero the man the king then you have major issues. He is almost too perfect. Keep up the good work sinjection, exposing these fanboys/girls.
He's not making us virtually uncomfortable at all. For one, Storm doesn't have a 'race' per-say. Her character design and the idea behind her was that her bloodline made her the decendant of the original protohumans that sprung up in that area of the world at the time. That's why she incorperates a number of different racial traits in the design of her face. Not to mention that Storm herself has never seen color, even in herself. She's always seen herself as a mutant first and formost. She's not petty and shallow or racist that she has to be with a black man because of her so-called color. As for the fanboys/girls comment, I'd rather be one of those anyday over being a racist. You know, like someone who belives color shouldn't mix, and other nonsense.

Beast

12-11-2006, 11:19 AM

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Your single right now aren't you? I mean if you haven't gotten the business from a significant other about an ex then I don't know either your 12 or your lonely. Don't get pouty and contempt confused. Contempt is what you have against this character and the writer of the character. And how do you know anyway. I thought you don't read the book because how much you hate it? Its wild how the ones who "hate" the book the most quote it so much. But if you do read it and hate it then I don't know what to say about you but at least you read it and make informed comments unlike some posters like ahem effect.
No, there was contempt there. Disgust at the kind of man that he was. Storm is not the sort of character to be pouty over someone like Black Panther. Hell, Storm even said in an issue of Uncanny X-Men once that T'Challa meant nothing to her. That he was a childhood fling, nothing more. And no, I have no contempt at all against the character of Black Panther. He's a fine character and I can't wait for him in Ultimates next year. Also loved him in Ultimate Avengers. At least I know he won't be written by a racist. And I would have supported the relationship and marriage if it actually had some decent build-up and wasn't written by a racist who has to sneak around with various forum idenities and hype and defend his own book. The man's comments disgust me, and so do his beliefs. And I'm not going to support a book starring any character written by a racist.

Pro

12-11-2006, 11:22 AM

Only racists worry about colors mixing ..

Beast

12-11-2006, 11:23 AM

Only racists worry about colors mixing ..
Word baby. Everyone likes a bit of cream in their coffee. :D

bluezulu

12-11-2006, 11:33 AM

Arrjay

12-11-2006, 11:34 AM

We are all one race; the human race.

Anyway, isn't this thread about marriage?

Peace.

SUPERECWFAN1

12-11-2006, 11:45 AM

Wow Sinjection, thats all I can say. I am amazed how virtual uncomfortable you are making these posters. Some are even exposing themselves without even knowing it. To de-race storm, or to pick apart the quality of Tchalla is amazing as he is the definitive hero. Here is a man who is a honored King, husband, friend and teammate. He helps America despite having priorities in his own country. Despite not being super powered he has held his own against the greatest of foes and has a contingency plan for Galactus. He is a physicist and is one of Marvel's greatest minds and does not suffer from the personality quarks of say reed richards. He is selflis giving technological gifts to the fantastic four and the falcon. If you don't like the pairing of Black Panther and Storm because you prefer her to marry someone else fine. If you feel that the marriage was "rushed" thats cool as well because that was a marketing/editorial decision not a creative controlled factor. But if you have a problem with Tchalla the hero the man the king then you have major issues. He is almost too perfect. Keep up the good work sinjection, exposing these fanboys/girls.

Uhhh no one has trashed Black Panther at all as a hero. Many of us have said his solo series have failed even if his a great hero due to overall demand. The only real topic here is the Wedding being rushed since its a Marvel Wedding thread. The rest he brings up is purely his own fears.

bluezulu

12-11-2006, 11:46 AM

We are all one race; the human race.

Anyway, isn't this thread about marriage?

Peace.

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Supposed to be but you know how that goes.:rolleyes: . And as I agree that race and the concept of it is inaccurate to say the least the minute the greater good stops reminding me how they see me and those like me the sooner I don't have to think about it. Thanks for the permission to date your daughters and live next door to you. Unfortunatly, I can't write your comic books unless I do it just like you do:( and because we are all supposed to be one big happy salad family I can't ever marry two black comic characters unless they are two that are made up or no one cares about.:(

Arrjay

12-11-2006, 11:49 AM

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Supposed to be but you know how that goes.:rolleyes: . And as I agree that race and the concept of it is inaccurate to say the least the minute the greater good stops reminding me how they see me and those like me the sooner I don't have to think about it. Thanks for the permission to date your daughters and live next door to you. Unfortunatly, I can't write your comic books unless I do it just like you do:( and because we are all supposed to be one big happy salad family I can't ever marry two black comic characters unless they are two that are made up or no one cares about.:(

I think you're blowing things considerably out of proportion here good sir.

You can feel free to date my nonexistant daughter though.

SUPERECWFAN1

12-11-2006, 11:51 AM

So what do you call people who don't want to deal with any issues of race? You are right we are headed to a great big mixing pot of oneness. But how come who I am or lets keep this about comics who storm is ethipoean/african american cause such a problem for you. You all praise JMS for blur and night hawk and sing the praise of Bendis. But for someone to deal with any real tangable issues of race they become racist. So how come the powers that be don't share your opinions? You like me show up on every thread that talks about the black panther or hudlin. I do it because I am a fan of the book, the character and the writer. Let's get it on the record the reason you do, so we can be clear?

I trash Bendis as much as JMS . Its JMS who made me finally drop Spiderman after 12 years of getting that title and lots of back issues. I trashed JMS so hard on these forums that after awhile it became sad. Sins Past made him an easy target of my scorn.

Bendis can't write a team book eithor. I believe he's told only 3 to 4 real stories in his de-compressed New Avengers run. I have ripped him as well.

But Bendis did an awesome Daredevil and is good on solo-books. He's done a decent job with Luke Cage as well. I loved that issue with Cage where he sends his family away. I have to think it was his best issue with Luke Cage.

Geoff Johns....love his writing in DC. I loved his Flash and Teen Titans but thus far his Green Lantern hasn't been as good. So I rip on it as well.

Theres a lot of creators whose work I like and don't like. JMS wowed me when he 1st did Amazing Spiderman. But then he just stayed too long and each DRASTIC SALES STUNT drove me away.

As a note I did like Hudlin's "MK Spiderman " run he did. I even said that on other forums. I loved the riff on Superman and that story.

bluezulu

12-11-2006, 11:54 AM

Uhhh no one has trashed Black Panther at all as a hero. Many of us have said his solo series have failed even if his a great hero due to overall demand. The only real topic here is the Wedding being rushed since its a Marvel Wedding thread. The rest he brings up is purely his own fears.

---------------
For the record for those who matter Marvel brass the book is making a profit. Also keep in mind every thing is relative. This book is
1) the most successful (in terms of sales) book written by a black writer at marvel ever.
2) the most successful (in terms of sales) this character has ever sold
3) the most successful (in terms of sales) a black with his skin so spawn doesn't count:p has sold as far as an ongoing.

What that tells me is that without a big name artist on it every month and with quality grade a marketing you can expect a black written/driven book to sale about 25k copies a month. But based off of internet chatter this is the most successful book. Back on topic as this thread will be closed in a matter of minutes, I can feel for fans of storm who fear that with her in this book if it is not successful then she may be in comic limbo. That is valid, and Im not going to get mad at folks on how they spend their money. Don't get it twisted, based on the fiction this is the best that Storm has ever had it. Taken as a work of fiction the character of storm has never been this happy before in her life. She is A+ in every sense of the word. I see that fans and supporters of her are just that when she is doing what they want her to do. Being the hot nanny to the xmen.

bluezulu

12-11-2006, 11:57 AM

I think you're blowing things considerably out of proportion here good sir.

You can feel free to date my nonexistant daughter though.

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But you didn't say if I can marry off one of your favorite marvel charcters or if I could write them.:( . Well considering I can't write worth a damn then that is an easy answere.:) but give me editorialship over them. Mwuahhaaa mwuahhaaa.:evilangry

Beast

12-11-2006, 12:00 PM

bluezulu

12-11-2006, 12:03 PM

I trash Bendis as much as JMS . Its JMS who made me finally drop Spiderman after 12 years of getting that title and lots of back issues. I trashed JMS so hard on these forums that after awhile it became sad. Sins Past made him an easy target of my scorn.

Bendis can't write a team book eithor. I believe he's told only 3 to 4 real stories in his de-compressed New Avengers run. I have ripped him as well.

But Bendis did an awesome Daredevil and is good on solo-books. He's done a decent job with Luke Cage as well. I loved that issue with Cage where he sends his family away. I have to think it was his best issue with Luke Cage.

Geoff Johns....love his writing in DC. I loved his Flash and Teen Titans but thus far his Green Lantern hasn't been as good. So I rip on it as well.

Theres a lot of creators whose work I like and don't like. JMS wowed me when he 1st did Amazing Spiderman. But then he just stayed too long and each DRASTIC SALES STUNT drove me away.

As a note I did like Hudlin's "MK Spiderman " run he did. I even said that on other forums. I loved the riff on Superman and that story.

---------------
keeping it on topic because this thread is soon to be deleted. So you are pleased as punch about the cage and jones marriage (i am as well by the way) but you are against this one because.
1) you feel the writer is racist? what does that have to do with the marriage per se
2) it's rushed? again technically a flawed argument as they could have drawn this out into two years or more and still would the naysayers still be happy with it
3) she should have been with wolverine, dracula, night crawler or forge? again not storms choice. They choose to not get with her so she moved on they moved on why can't "her fans" still not a valid argument against this marriage. Who never marry because their first true love broke up with them. Maybe in bad dime store novels but in real life every body gets a little bit maybe not a lot but just a little bit. And what you don't want somebody else will. True talk.:cool:

SUPERECWFAN1

12-11-2006, 12:06 PM

---------------
For the record for those who matter Marvel brass the book is making a profit. Also keep in mind every thing is relative. This book is
1) the most successful (in terms of sales) book written by a black writer at marvel ever.
2) the most successful (in terms of sales) this character has ever sold
3) the most successful (in terms of sales) a black with his skin so spawn doesn't count:p has sold as far as an ongoing.

What that tells me is that without a big name artist on it every month and with quality grade a marketing you can expect a black written/driven book to sale about 25k copies a month. But based off of internet chatter this is the most successful book. Back on topic as this thread will be closed in a matter of minutes, I can feel for fans of storm who fear that with her in this book if it is not successful then she may be in comic limbo. That is valid, and Im not going to get mad at folks on how they spend their money. Don't get it twisted, based on the fiction this is the best that Storm has ever had it. Taken as a work of fiction the character of storm has never been this happy before in her life. She is A+ in every sense of the word. I see that fans and supporters of her are just that when she is doing what they want her to do. Being the hot nanny to the xmen.

If we keep it civil why would it be closed ? We can keep it calm , cool civil ect ect.

As an X-Fan I did like what Claremont had planned for her before all the changes stopped it. The X.S.E situation where she would lead the X-Men as a special Mutant agency type. I loved that approach and I admit I didn't get X-Treme X-Men but many X-Fans on the X-Boards swear by it. ( I tried issue 1-4 and GLMK II and weren't into it)

Pro

12-11-2006, 12:07 PM

Thanks for the permission to date your daughters and live next door to you.

Couldn't care less, do as you please, all i care about is the volume of your music, i hate noisy neighbours and those come in all colors of the rainbow.

2) it's rushed? again technically a flawed argument as they could have drawn this out into two years or more and still would the naysayers still be happy with it

how can it be a flawed argument when you clearly state yourself it is rushed when you say even if they could have drawn this out into two years or more (which they didn't therefore it is rushed and the argument valid)

bluezulu

12-11-2006, 12:09 PM

I agree with Arrjay. You are definatly blowing things out of proportion. And hot nanny of the X-Men? It's comments like that which make me question if you've ever read an X-Men comic in your entire life. She's argueably the most competant and successful leader in X-Men history. She's at least as successful and competant in that capacity as Scott is. And best and happiest that she's ever been written, I disagree with.

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Dude that was back in the m/f 80s I was 15 then. So since then she has been relegated to the side lines while Rouge who was a power house but no storm was on the side lines. You know how I know this is the best thing for Storm? The nay sayers are still talking about her being the bad a** leader of the morlocks and whooped scott with no powers. In 2006 her best days are behind her? Bro, who is Storm. If she is not going to grow in the virtual living marvel world then kill her off. Really. She despite you wanting to make her into a hybrid human is african and she is american. The pick pocket in her was explored but why not the women. The black women. She can love, laugh cry. She can be more then the stuck up, regal, up tight taking life to serous stick in the mud she has been for years with the xmen. Breath dude. Change is good. If not you will still be living at home with moms and them...unless...

Beast

12-11-2006, 12:09 PM

If we keep it civil why would it be closed ? We can keep it calm , cool civil ect ect.

As an X-Fan I did like what Claremont had planned for her before all the changes stopped it. The X.S.E situation where she would lead the X-Men as a special Mutant agency type. I loved that approach and I admit I didn't get X-Treme X-Men but many X-Fans on the X-Boards swear by it. ( I tried issue 1-4 and GLMK II and weren't into it)
God Loves, Man Kills II wasn't a good thing to judge by. It was editorial forced and mandated. CC didn't want to write it, but he had to. And also was forced to include Lady Deathstrike because of X2.

Beast

12-11-2006, 12:13 PM

--------------
Dude that was back in the m/f 80s I was 15 then. So since then she has been relegated to the side lines while Rouge who was a power house but no storm was on the side lines. You know how I know this is the best thing for Storm? The nay sayers are still talking about her being the bad a** leader of the morlocks and whooped scott with no powers. In 2006 her best days are behind her? Bro, who is Storm. If she is not going to grow in the virtual living marvel world then kill her off. Really. She despite you wanting to make her into a hybrid human is african and she is american. The pick pocket in her was explored but why not the women. The black women. She can love, laugh cry. She can be more then the stuck up, regal, up tight taking life to serous stick in the mud she has been for years with the xmen. Breath dude. Change is good. If not you will still be living at home with moms and them...unless...
Wrong. She was a leader in X-Treme and in Uncanny X-Men as well. At least until she was ripped away and stuffed into Black Panther with little regard to the character or her family relationship with her teammates. She has not been relegated to the sidelines, hell she was pretty much the star of the majority of X-Treme X-Men and recent Uncanny up until being stolen for Black Panther. She certainly isn't the 'Nanny' of the X-Men. Far from it. And yes, Change is good. Shitty change however just smells like the real thing. And I love how you go for the cheap shot insult instead of discussing things like an adult. You make any progress you gain in the discussion completely moot by being an ass. Bravo.

bluezulu

12-11-2006, 12:16 PM

Couldn't care less, do as you please, all i care about is the volume of your music, i hate noisy neighbours and those come in all colors of the rainbow.

how can it be a flawed argument when you clearly state yourself it is rushed when you say even if they could have drawn this out into two years or more (which they didn't therefore it is rushed and the argument valid)

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valid in the context as a reason not to marry. come on bro, in an america where you have drive in wedding chapels what is rushed with love? Are you married? You know what marriage legally really is? You go to the local courthouse pay 25 bucks for a certificate and have to wait a minimum of a week before you can get hitched. Some stated don't even require a blood test. You don't even have to show that you are not brother and sister you only have to sign something swearing it. My point is I don't know what you the fan needed to be shown to show this marriage was not forced. I have alias and the pulse. Luke technically only appeared in like 4 of those issues maybe a few more, but when you count the panels it is not the body of work that you all speak of. In real time marriages can happen in a week. In marvel time which is a never ending 10 year slider marriages can be drawn out over a period of 6 issues half a year (as this one) or 20 as the first appearance of peter and mary j and when they married in the 80s. Im sorry rushed and forced just read as something else to me. I just don't get the logic.

SUPERECWFAN1

12-11-2006, 12:17 PM

---------------
keeping it on topic because this thread is soon to be deleted. So you are pleased as punch about the cage and jones marriage (i am as well by the way) but you are against this one because.
1) you feel the writer is racist? what does that have to do with the marriage per se

I have no clue if Hudlin is or not. I know many online have feelings about him as we see in this thread. They feel it and it spreads. Internet heat is very hard to really get away from. The alias situation didn't help eithor. I really compare it to Chuck Austen's situation as I pointed out earlier. Many fans accused him of being a (spelling ok) Mysginist. Someone with unhealthy feelings towards women even though he appears happily married ect ect.

2) it's rushed? again technically a flawed argument as they could have drawn this out into two years or more and still would the naysayers still be happy with it

Bingo....many of us feel it was a huge rush job. 6 months was pretty damn quick and the fact that contuinity was brushed aside made a lot of fans angry. I myself think they should have let Storm join the Black Panther series in issue #12 and did a year buildup or longer to get there.

But what can ya say. I wish them luck with it. I know it did great numbers and all. So Marvel won by making $$$ on it.

3) she should have been with wolverine, dracula, night crawler or forge? again not storms choice. They choose to not get with her so she moved on they moved on why can't "her fans" still not a valid argument against this marriage. Who never marry because their first true love broke up with them. Maybe in bad dime store novels but in real life every body gets a little bit maybe not a lot but just a little bit. And what you don't want somebody else will. True talk.:cool:

The fans had expectations on her. The X-Men fans like Beast,Fishtaco and others had followed her for years. They really had expectations because she's really an X-Character. They saw her grow in that series and she to them was someone they felt belonged with Forge or Wolverine....ect ect.

Beast

12-11-2006, 12:21 PM

-----------------
valid in the context as a reason not to marry. come on bro, in an america where you have drive in wedding chapels what is rushed with love? Are you married? You know what marriage legally really is? You go to the local courthouse pay 25 bucks for a certificate and have to wait a minimum of a week before you can get hitched. Some stated don't even require a blood test. You don't even have to show that you are not brother and sister you only have to sign something swearing it. My point is I don't know what you the fan needed to be shown to show this marriage was not forced. I have alias and the pulse. Luke technically only appeared in like 4 of those issues maybe a few more, but when you count the panels it is not the body of work that you all speak of. In real time marriages can happen in a week. In marvel time which is a never ending 10 year slider marriages can be drawn out over a period of 6 issues half a year (as this one) or 20 as the first appearance of peter and mary j and when they married in the 80s. Im sorry rushed and forced just read as something else to me. I just don't get the logic.
Yes, it was forced. It was forced because there's no logic behind it. It was nothing more than a publicity stunt to draw in black readers. For god sake the whole thing was tied into Black History Month. It's nothing but hype and hackneyed at every turn. If it actually had some time and logical development, and not to mention a writer that doesn't have to depend on 'WHITE PEOPLE ARE EVIL' to make a career, then it would be miuch eaiser to accept. So yes, it was rushed and forced in every sense of the word.

Pro

12-11-2006, 12:23 PM

In 2006 her best days are behind her? Bro, who is Storm. If she is not going to grow in the virtual living marvel world then kill her off. Really.

Guess you were 100% behind Goliath dying in Civil War then?

bluezulu

12-11-2006, 12:24 PM

Wrong. She was a leader in X-Treme and in Uncanny X-Men as well. At least until she was ripped away and stuffed into Black Panther with little regard to the character or her family relationship with her teammates. She has not been relegated to the sidelines, hell she was pretty much the star of the majority of X-Treme X-Men and recent Uncanny up until being stolen for Black Panther. She certainly isn't the 'Nanny' of the X-Men. Far from it. And yes, Change is good. Shitty change however just smells like the real thing. And I love how you go for the cheap shot insult instead of discussing things like an adult. You make any progress you gain in the discussion completely moot by being an ass. Bravo.

-------------------
You do know that the editor of black panther had to get permission to use storm right? She wasn't stolen, she was cast aside because she did not fit into what the writers of the 50 x books had planned. Oh sure Im quit sure they could have used her somewhere and maybe as a leader but know she is making head lines and is calling shots in the civil war. Im not going to write a check that my mouth can't cash like some of yall, I don't read the x-men currently. Tried to read the 40 years dvd rom but the best stories were from when I was a kid (i really feel bad for yall about that) So I won't act like Im the current expert in the X-men. All I know is that when you all talk about storm you refer to stuff I knew about from my adolescence. The stuff from extreme I don't hear much from you all about in this argument and from the second hand accounts extreme x-men sounds extreme. So yea I am coming with half the information I can admit that but Storm in the span of 6 months have been involved in 2 marvel shattering events with the marriage making print media, her dress was designed by some Hollywood designer featured in tv guide. She never got press like that with the xmen. Like I said seems like she made out pretty good in the deal.:cool:

tetragene

12-11-2006, 12:30 PM

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<snip>...been involved in 2 marvel shattering events with the marriage making print media, her dress was designed by some Hollywood designer featured in tv guide. She never got press like that with the xmen. Like I said seems like she made out pretty good in the deal.:cool:

Yeah, because Storm was never mentioned in all those magazines or tv-news shows as a result of Halle Berry playing her in all three X-Men movies, right?

Beast

12-11-2006, 12:30 PM

-------------------
You do know that the editor of black panther had to get permission to use storm right? She wasn't stolen, she was cast aside because she did not fit into what the writers of the 50 x books had planned. Oh sure Im quit sure they could have used her somewhere and maybe as a leader but know she is making head lines and is calling shots in the civil war. Im not going to write a check that my mouth can't cash like some of yall, I don't read the x-men currently. Tried to read the 40 years dvd rom but the best stories were from when I was a kid (i really feel bad for yall about that) So I won't act like Im the current expert in the X-men. All I know is that when you all talk about storm you refer to stuff I knew about from my adolescence. The stuff from extreme I don't hear much from you all about in this argument and from the second hand accounts extreme x-men sounds extreme. So yea I am coming with half the information I can admit that but Storm in the span of 6 months have been involved in 2 marvel shattering events with the marriage making print media, her dress was designed by some Hollywood designer featured in tv guide. She never got press like that with the xmen. Like I said seems like she made out pretty good in the deal.:cool:
Yes, she was stolen. Just because an editor okays the theft doesn't make it any less theft. Morrison pulled the same thing when he stole Beast from X-Treme X-Men without regard to the current writer of the character or the plots that had been already written involving them. So yes, she was stolen because they wanted to placate Reggie's demands for Black Panther. And also because they wanted to try to boost the dismal sales for the book. That's also why it was suddenly shoe-horned into Civil War, because the wedding didn't do much of anything to help save the book, so they needed another stunt to try to drum up numbers. And please, if it wasn't for cramming the book into Civil War sales would still be in the toilet.

bluezulu

12-11-2006, 12:31 PM

Guess you were 100% behind Goliath dying in Civil War then?

-------------
Not behind it but not opposed either. If his death was real and did not serve as a plot point. The argument against goliath dying is very much a fanboy argument. To some writer or editor on that retreat of theirs it might have seem like he was the customary throw away character to kill, I even joked about him with his "borrowed" un original powers. But Bill Foster was the bomb to some. He has real Marvel History. He was not stereotype, he was a brilliant Dr. He was the second black character to have his own book, even though it lasted only six issues. That is history. From what it looks like coming up in the Black Panther Reggie Hudlin is going to look at this issue as we see what looks like Bill Foster's family have to deal with the issue of his dying. If it's good then maybe it will have comic writers really examine what it means to kill a character as a plot piece.

Beast

12-11-2006, 12:31 PM

Yeah, because Storm was never mentioned in all those magazines or tv-news shows as a result of Halle Berry playing her in all three X-Men movies, right?
Don't forget... academy award winning Halle Berry. Sure she sucked as Storm, but she got tons of press.

bluezulu

12-11-2006, 12:37 PM

Yes, it was forced. It was forced because there's no logic behind it. It was nothing more than a publicity stunt to draw in black readers. For god sake the whole thing was tied into Black History Month. It's nothing but hype and hackneyed at every turn. If it actually had some time and logical development, and not to mention a writer that doesn't have to depend on 'WHITE PEOPLE ARE EVIL' to make a career, then it would be miuch eaiser to accept. So yes, it was rushed and forced in every sense of the word.

----------------------
Hmm sound pretty passioned about that. Take yourself out of your own shoes and your own view point for a sec. With the same hate you have for the Storm marriage there could be a little girl or boy who might be from a single parent home who would love to see an example of a loving married couple. Maybe there is a Storm fan who can relate to her experiences and never thought they can overcome feelings of trust but can see how storm overcame her trust in failed relationships to find it at last. Don't mean to get all corny but you are labeling this marriage with "white people are evil" to further a career. Umm Reggie Hudlin does not need Marvel Entertainment to further his career. If anything it has hurt it, but not one single late issue.:cool:

bluezulu

12-11-2006, 12:43 PM

Yeah, because Storm was never mentioned in all those magazines or tv-news shows as a result of Halle Berry playing her in all three X-Men movies, right?

---------------------
Independent of the xmen. making her own moves, her own way at her own time. who is she? If the xmen stopped to exist would she? Like the fat boys breaking up lol:D or Destiny's child splitting, sometimes one has to find their own way and make their own mark. Yea, you say she has to do this by marrying some dude? I say no. Go into the 3rd dimension. She has always experiences unrequited love (sp) or at least had her heart broken many times. So for once she steps out there first by helping her home land. Two by revisiting an old love. Yea I know it was marvel team up but it happened Im sorry. But yea. She got shine of her own. That was her in those pages in her dress. Storm marrying Black Panther marvels first black superhero. The first married black couple (two back people married:eek: ) in marvel. HEADLINES. Not the Xmen featuring Storm. So yea the name of the book is still the Black Panther but the name of the Xmen was not Storm either.

Beast

12-11-2006, 12:47 PM

That's because the X-Men is a team book. Unless Marvel is going to change the name of Black Panther's book to include Storm, all it is is the character playing second fiddle to T'Challa in every way.

Nevets F

12-11-2006, 12:51 PM

-------------------
You do know that the editor of black panther had to get permission to use storm right? She wasn't stolen, she was cast aside because she did not fit into what the writers of the 50 x books had planned. Oh sure Im quit sure they could have used her somewhere and maybe as a leader but know she is making head lines and is calling shots in the civil war. Im not going to write a check that my mouth can't cash like some of yall, I don't read the x-men currently. Tried to read the 40 years dvd rom but the best stories were from when I was a kid (i really feel bad for yall about that) So I won't act like Im the current expert in the X-men. All I know is that when you all talk about storm you refer to stuff I knew about from my adolescence. The stuff from extreme I don't hear much from you all about in this argument and from the second hand accounts extreme x-men sounds extreme. So yea I am coming with half the information I can admit that but Storm in the span of 6 months have been involved in 2 marvel shattering events with the marriage making print media, her dress was designed by some Hollywood designer featured in tv guide. She never got press like that with the xmen. Like I said seems like she made out pretty good in the deal.:cool:

Like most everything else you and sinjection has posted in this thread, this is totally false.

Storm was TAKEN from the X-Office....as a matter of fact, she is still wanted in the X-Office but she is "off-limits" because of Joe Q's love of Reginald Hudlin's connections. Simple facts are, MOST fans hate the Black Panther title simply because it is not written well, the Storm marriage was forced and meant to draw in readers. Storm is being treated like the good little wife, taking orders from her husband instead of being a strong woman she has always been.

Black Panter is being tied into Civil War, and probably World War Hulk simply to help its numbers. When Hudlin is taken off the book, or when it is canceled, the Storm/BP marriage will thankfully be retconned, and Storm will be used properly again.

tetragene

12-11-2006, 12:52 PM

---------------------
She got shine of her own. That was her in those pages in her dress. Storm marrying Black Panther marvels first black superhero. The first married black couple (two back people married:eek: ) in marvel. HEADLINES. Not the Xmen featuring Storm. So yea the name of the book is still the Black Panther but the name of the Xmen was not Storm either.

This pretty much sums up all that I've heard from you and sinjection so far: "black, black, black"

What is the big deal about them being black?! You act as if it's Earth shattering news for two black people to get married. If it symbolized any type of a real relationship (comparing their marriage to "quickie" marriages doesn't bode well for the support of their union...most of those quickie weddings turn into quickie divorces because it was two people rushing into things) then yeah, I'd be all for celebrating it. But it's like they're becoming a couple AFTER they get married instead of them being represented as one BEFORE.

bluezulu

12-11-2006, 12:53 PM

Yes, she was stolen. Just because an editor okays the theft doesn't make it any less theft. Morrison pulled the same thing when he stole Beast from X-Treme X-Men without regard to the current writer of the character or the plots that had been already written involving them. So yes, she was stolen because they wanted to placate Reggie's demands for Black Panther. And also because they wanted to try to boost the dismal sales for the book. That's also why it was suddenly shoe-horned into Civil War, because the wedding didn't do much of anything to help save the book, so they needed another stunt to try to drum up numbers. And please, if it wasn't for cramming the book into Civil War sales would still be in the toilet.

------------------
If you and I could ever write anything that 25k people would want to read I would be amazed. Oh you do have over 10k post on CBR so you do have your own following. Skip that. But your argument sounds a little juvenile and whiney. Do you think it really happend like that? With the decision making that comes into play with these books where story lines are thought up years in advance and the next arc has been completed before the first one hit the press? The new guy on the block would have had to wait if the current writers of the x-men had anything interesting to do with her then this would have played out diffrently. See change is good keep saying it. Yea the same 1987 storm. Nothing changes, no growth. Still keeping those playful little x-kids in check. Don't laugh, be serious. Hey Forge marry me. Nope oh well still have the xmen. Yawn.

I said it before and I will say it again. This book makes money for Marvel.
It sells better then Priest
It sells better then any black writer for marvel ever.
It sells better then any black lead book ever.
The question isn't about this book, it's why only 25k at a time is willing to put this book on their pull list unless it's a civil war/special commermorative occasion. If it's good enough because it's a potential collector issue why it cant be added. Becasue the average joe comic fan does not want to change from anything other then the wolverspiderxbendis book. I wish I could copy write that phrase wolverspiderxbendis.

Beast

12-11-2006, 12:56 PM

This pretty much sums up all that I've heard from you and sinjection so far: "black, black, black"

What is the big deal about them being black?! You act as if it's Earth shattering news for two black people to get married. If it symbolized any type of a real relationship (comparing their marriage to "quickie" marriages doesn't bode well for the support of their union...most of those quickie weddings turn into quickie divorces because it was two people rushing into things) then yeah, I'd be all for celebrating it. But it's like they're becoming a couple AFTER they get married instead of them being represented as one BEFORE.
Well said. It's even more offensive from Sinjection's point of view, because he finds disgust in any character relationship that isn't featuring two characters of the same color. Frankly Christopher Priest had the right idea about the Black Panther and Storm wedding when he planned it all those years ago. Develop it, have it happen, and have it not work out in the long run. Shame that he's not on the book instead of Reggie Hudlin.

bluezulu

12-11-2006, 01:00 PM

Like most everything else you and sinjection has posted in this thread, this is totally false.

Storm was TAKEN from the X-Office....as a matter of fact, she is still wanted in the X-Office but she is "off-limits" because of Joe Q's love of Reginald Hudlin's connections. Simple facts are, MOST fans hate the Black Panther title simply because it is not written well, the Storm marriage was forced and meant to draw in readers. Storm is being treated like the good little wife, taking orders from her husband instead of being a strong woman she has always been.

Black Panter is being tied into Civil War, and probably World War Hulk simply to help its numbers. When Hudlin is taken off the book, or when it is canceled, the Storm/BP marriage will thankfully be retconned, and Storm will be used properly again.

--------------------
And because Inferno said it that's a fact jack, huh take that.:mad: Damn know since Inferno just sonned my I guess I will log off and do some real work before these folks fire me.:rolleyes: . See we were doing good until this joker showed up.
Dude having connect you mad at reggie for this? Storm is wanted in the x offices why? Im sure she is but if it's the same ol same ol why? And a company pubbing their own works to generate sales is wrong why? I don't get it? Yall are like jazz critics talking about the virtues of Lois Armstrong when it comes to Priest and blame Marvel for not supporting his book. But when Marvel realizes it's going to take more to get more then 25k of you all to buy something more then wolvespiderxbendis.:rolleyes: . Step your post game up son.:cool:

Beast

12-11-2006, 01:00 PM

------------------
If you and I could ever write anything that 25k people would want to read I would be amazed. Oh you do have over 10k post on CBR so you do have your own following. Skip that. But your argument sounds a little juvenile and whiney. Do you think it really happend like that? With the decision making that comes into play with these books where story lines are thought up years in advance and the next arc has been completed before the first one hit the press? The new guy on the block would have had to wait if the current writers of the x-men had anything interesting to do with her then this would have played out diffrently. See change is good keep saying it. Yea the same 1987 storm. Nothing changes, no growth. Still keeping those playful little x-kids in check. Don't laugh, be serious. Hey Forge marry me. Nope oh well still have the xmen. Yawn.

I said it before and I will say it again. This book makes money for Marvel.
It sells better then Priest
It sells better then any black writer for marvel ever.
It sells better then any black lead book ever.
The question isn't about this book, it's why only 25k at a time is willing to put this book on their pull list unless it's a civil war/special commermorative occasion. If it's good enough because it's a potential collector issue why it cant be added. Becasue the average joe comic fan does not want to change from anything other then the wolverspiderxbendis book. I wish I could copy write that phrase wolverspiderxbendis.
You are so utterly and mind blowingly wrong in everything you've said, I can't even fathom where to begin disecting it. So I won't even try. You arguments make no sense. Your insulting attitude is rude and clearly shows you have no desire to have a fair debate over this. And I don't feel I need disassemble your arguments because you do a fine job of destroying your credibility with how you presnt your poor arguments.

Frodo-X

12-11-2006, 01:01 PM

Beast

12-11-2006, 01:06 PM

Actually, that's exactly how it goes. Certain writers get preferential treatment.

Mike Carey couldn't have Psylocke 'cause Claremont wanted her.

Whedon managed to get half of the big names (Beast, Cyclops, Wolverine) locked up.

As mentioned earlier, Claremont had Beast taken from him while he was in the middle of a story about him.
Exactly. Though I agree with them on letting CC have Psylocke. After all, he's been fighting for years to get her brought back from the dead, and then had his plots he planned for her stymied by sickness and also being taken off Uncanny. Plus I'm looking forward to where he takes her on Exiles. In the case of Morrison snatching Beast, it was somewhat different. CC wasn't even told that Morrison was getting control over Beast, so had to actually rewrite his first year plans with the character. Carey at least knew from the start that Psylocke was called for.
NRAMA: Pardon me for the geek out, but the next couple of questions are ones I wanted to ask you almost my entire life. An example would be when Magneto accidentally freed Proteus in issue #106 or #107. Then the Proteus storyline wouldn't come up for about two years. Did you know that you would get to it or do you like just planting seeds and knowing they are there?

CLAREMONT: Both. Just to give you an example. The current run when I started working on X-Treme X-Men the core team was two original cast, two new cast, two second generation cast. Storm, Beast, Sage, Bishop, Rogue and Psylocke. I did a year's advance worth of stories built around the Beast. Only to discover that Beast had been pulled from my cast and handed over to Grant Morrison's cast. That meant rewriting an entire year's worth of stories, which was a pain in the neck. Some stories had to go in one direction, some stories had to be postponed and others pulled completely. It changed the entire timeline. Fast forward ahead to last summer, Andrew Lis [editor of X-Treme X-Men] and I worked out an entire arc of stories to begin with issue 20 to cover two more years. Then Salvador was assigned to another book so the storyline we thought we would start in November we had to start in January. Then it was decided we should do a sequel to God Loves, Man Kills to coincide with the movie. So the arc that was scheduled for May had to put off because of changes in the production schedule. So in a practical sense by the time I get going with the arc that supposed to start in January the better part of a year will have passed. But in the meantime I'm blocked out for three more arcs but I know that they are some special projects coming along that will make changes in that timeline. So, even when your plans are totally meticulous, there is always the unexpected to be factored in. In certain cases what looks like a dangling plotline may actually be, stuff came in and got in the way. It had to wait until a queue opened up so to speak.

bluezulu

12-11-2006, 01:09 PM

Frodo-X

12-11-2006, 01:11 PM

Oh, I'm jazzed to see Psylocke in eXiles, too. I'm sure Carey would have handled her well enough, though, but either way, at least she's back. And, like you said, everyone knew he'd want her when he came back.

Frodo-X

12-11-2006, 01:13 PM

bluezulu

12-11-2006, 01:14 PM

Exactly. Though I agree with them on letting CC have Psylocke. After all, he's been fighting for years to get her brought back from the dead, and then had his plots he planned for her stymied by sickness and also being taken off Uncanny. Plus I'm looking forward to where he takes her on Exiles. In the case of Morrison snatching Beast, it was somewhat different. CC wasn't even told that Morrison was getting control over Beast, so had to actually rewrite his first year plans with the character. Carey at least knew from the start that Psylocke was called for.

--------------------------
I see what it is now Beast. As I really do need to get back to work. You are a X fan first and foremost. Their probably isn't a marvel universe outside of the xmen as far as you care. I guess with a little knowledge about who the poster is that helps go along way to understand why they argue the points that they do. Im done with you as I feel no longer to participate in this with you when everything will mindnumbingly go right back to just like the above post right here. X men.

tetragene

12-11-2006, 01:15 PM

Black Black Black ugh. Why don't it just go away.:mad: Just because youuu have a problem experiencing something black doesn't mean that others do as well. I know it makes you all uncomfortable inside (serious you all do know this is how you all are coming off right?) This book is so black it have me thinking that it was a milestone book. This book is soo black after the Katrina issue I drove home quick thinking the FBI or homeland security was going to remove it from me with force. Im not lying I like you thought Reg had something on Qusada to let this book out because it's so black and then it hit me. Marvel and Qusada are brilliant. In the push to show diversity, forward thinking and to do what you all hate so much appeal to a larger comic buying demographic they have even if accidentally put out some of the most ground breaking work ever. Sure Priest series was more solidly written. Hell who is going to stand up next to Priest and his 20 something years in the game. Qusada is editor in chief not keeper of what all fanboys hold dear. Yall and your thinking had this company almost folded in the 90s. This business model might result in growing pains of letting inexperienced hollywood types in the door, but those connects, damn those connects are going to keep those stock holders happy when that black panther movie gross 250 million world wide.

You assume an awful lot. For you "info"--pretty much all I have are black friends, seriously. I have maybe one white friend, two asian friends, and the rest are all black--but you're right, I probably do have a problem "experiencing something black." It can't "go away" because you keep bringing the damn subject up. You can't look at Storm and BP objectively...as just "characters". In practically every post it's "black superheroes", "black king and queen", "black marriage." And to do what we all hate so much by making it a "black book"? I hate to inform you that if you think none of those 25k buyers of BP are white you are sadly mistaken.

SUPERECWFAN1

12-11-2006, 01:17 PM

--------------------
And because Inferno said it that's a fact jack, huh take that.:mad: Damn know since Inferno just sonned my I guess I will log off and do some real work before these folks fire me.:rolleyes: . See we were doing good until this joker showed up.
Dude having connect you mad at reggie for this? Storm is wanted in the x offices why? Im sure she is but if it's the same ol same ol why? And a company pubbing their own works to generate sales is wrong why? I don't get it? Yall are like jazz critics talking about the virtues of Lois Armstrong when it comes to Priest and blame Marvel for not supporting his book. But when Marvel realizes it's going to take more to get more then 25k of you all to buy something more then wolvespiderxbendis.:rolleyes: . Step your post game up son.:cool:

That magic 25K is nice. But its also the rumored line when cancellation or SALES STUNTS happen. Look at Cable & Deadpool as an example. Civil War is happening in Black Panther and C & D to pump sales into each series. In fact its not fair in Cable & Deadpools case since Fabian N got word on #26 the book was safe til #39. I have no clue if they have guarenteed it longer than that. ( I'm sure it has)

Nevets F

12-11-2006, 01:19 PM

[QUOTE=bluezulu;4098528]Black Black Black ugh. Why don't it just go away.:mad: Just because youuu have a problem experiencing something black doesn't mean that others do as well. I know it makes you all uncomfortable inside (serious you all do know this is how you all are coming off right?)QUOTE]

What is funny, is that you two are the only ones coming off bad. You just honestly don't see it.

Beast

12-11-2006, 01:21 PM

Black Black Black ugh. Why don't it just go away.:mad: Just because youuu have a problem experiencing something black doesn't mean that others do as well. I know it makes you all uncomfortable inside (serious you all do know this is how you all are coming off right?) This book is so black it have me thinking that it was a milestone book. This book is soo black after the Katrina issue I drove home quick thinking the FBI or homeland security was going to remove it from me with force. Im not lying I like you thought Reg had something on Qusada to let this book out because it's so black and then it hit me. Marvel and Qusada are brilliant. In the push to show diversity, forward thinking and to do what you all hate so much appeal to a larger comic buying demographic they have even if accidentally put out some of the most ground breaking work ever. Sure Priest series was more solidly written. Hell who is going to stand up next to Priest and his 20 something years in the game. Qusada is editor in chief not keeper of what all fanboys hold dear. Yall and your thinking had this company almost folded in the 90s. This business model might result in growing pains of letting inexperienced hollywood types in the door, but those connects, damn those connects are going to keep those stock holders happy when that black panther movie gross 250 million world wide.
So having a book heavily heaped in stereotypes and black superiority is groundbreaking? I don't really see that. Hell if I wanted to see those sorts of things and actually be entertained, I'd toss in Blazing Saddles. God bless Mel Brooks for being able to make fun of all races equally. And I don't see how this is going to actually grow the industry, given the book is barely selling and would probably have been cancelled by now if they didn't regularly tie-in to something to boost the sales numbers. It's sad when racist propoganda like Black Panther is selling 25K a month, and actual good books like Agents of Atlas... which also features a Wakandan character (who's well written and not an African-American stereotype) only draws in 12K. It's a crying shame. And seriously, if you think a BP movie would gross 250+ M, you're fooling yourself. Hell, Blade didn't even do that well. :p

Nevets F

12-11-2006, 01:22 PM

Black Black Black ugh. Why don't it just go away.:mad: Just because youuu have a problem experiencing something black doesn't mean that others do as well. I know it makes you all uncomfortable inside (serious you all do know this is how you all are coming off right?) This book is so black it have me thinking that it was a milestone book. This book is soo black after the Katrina issue I drove home quick thinking the FBI or homeland security was going to remove it from me with force. Im not lying I like you thought Reg had something on Qusada to let this book out because it's so black and then it hit me. Marvel and Qusada are brilliant. In the push to show diversity, forward thinking and to do what you all hate so much appeal to a larger comic buying demographic they have even if accidentally put out some of the most ground breaking work ever. Sure Priest series was more solidly written. Hell who is going to stand up next to Priest and his 20 something years in the game. Qusada is editor in chief not keeper of what all fanboys hold dear. Yall and your thinking had this company almost folded in the 90s. This business model might result in growing pains of letting inexperienced hollywood types in the door, but those connects, damn those connects are going to keep those stock holders happy when that black panther movie gross 250 million world wide.

You actually quite insulting. I have black people in my family, and love them dearly. I live in a city with a mostly black ratio of citizens. Don't pretend to know me or anything about me. We are talking about FACTS here...and what we know is what I and others have posted above.

Beast

12-11-2006, 01:25 PM

--------------------------
I see what it is now Beast. As I really do need to get back to work. You are a X fan first and foremost. Their probably isn't a marvel universe outside of the xmen as far as you care. I guess with a little knowledge about who the poster is that helps go along way to understand why they argue the points that they do. Im done with you as I feel no longer to participate in this with you when everything will mindnumbingly go right back to just like the above post right here. X men.
You would be wrong. While I'm primarily an X-Men reader, I like the large diverse Marvel Universe. After all my favorite character was a member of both the Avengers and the Defenders. So don't tell me that I don't see a Marvel Universe the X-Men. I just can't afford to read everything that Marvel puts out, and the X-Men are my primary passion. I do read everything in the Ultimate Universe, and I also read the occassional non-X-men mini.

SUPERECWFAN1

12-11-2006, 01:28 PM

Hell who is going to stand up next to Priest and his 20 something years in the game. Qusada is editor in chief not keeper of what all fanboys hold dear. Yall and your thinking had this company almost folded in the 90s. This business model might result in growing pains of letting inexperienced hollywood types in the door, but those connects, damn those connects are going to keep those stock holders happy when that black panther movie gross 250 million world wide.

Ok now this is so wrong and its something people trot out as an answer. See how bad the 90's was ? Marvel sucked in the 90's comics wise and went broke. Which is such bullsh-t that if you look at key factors you'll see why Marvel went bankrupt.

1. Marvel bought Fleer and Skybox. The card companies which went in the tank.

2. Marvel opened amusement parks in the 1990's. Perlman believed Marvel could be a Disney of sorts. Thats why he expanded into theme parks .

3. Marvel bought Heroes World Distribution and bought Malibu due to the computer technology they used to produce the comics.

By expanding in all this by 1995/1996 Marvel was in trouble. In 1997 they filed a re-organization bankruptcy plan and the only profitable part of the company was....( drumroll) the publishing arm. The comics line was the only profitable money maker Marvel had and after a few years in Bakruptcy they emerged as we see now.

The contacts with Hollywood is done to pump sales into books. Whedon's Astonishing X-Men sales like f-cking hotcakes. JQ is nice and won't push him since he's a Hollywood name and will allow it. Same with Heinberg who does the awesome Young Avengers. He too can get an easy schedule and produce Season 1# and Season 2# ect ect.

Frodo-X

12-11-2006, 01:29 PM

You know, just 'cause it says "X-Poster of the Month" in my sig, doesn't mean that's all I read.

FYI: I currently read Captain America, Iron Man, Amazing Spider-man, newuniversal, Fantastic Four, and Punisher War Journal, all of which, you'll note, are not X-books. So don't presume to think you know a damn thing about me and what I read.

Nevets F

12-11-2006, 01:30 PM

Ok now this is so wrong and its something people trot out as an answer. See how bad the 90's was ? Marvel sucked in the 90's comics wise and went broke. Which is such bullsh-t that if you look at key factors you'll see why Marvel went bankrupt.

1. Marvel bought Fleer and Skybox. The card companies which went in the tank.

2. Marvel opened amusement parks in the 1990's. Perlman believed Marvel could be a Disney of sorts. Thats why he expanded into theme parks .

3. Marvel bought Heroes World Distribution and bought Malibu due to the computer technology they used to produce the comics.

By expanding in all this by 1995/1996 Marvel was in trouble. In 1997 they filed a re-organization bankruptcy plan and the only profitable part of the company was....( drumroll) the publishing arm. The comics line was the only profitable money maker Marvel had and after a few years in Bakruptcy they emerged as we see now.

The contacts with Hollywood is done to pump sales into books. Whedon's Astonishing X-Men sales like f-cking hotcakes. JQ is nice and won't push him since he's a Hollywood name and will allow it. Same with Heinberg who does the awesome Young Avengers. He too can get an easy schedule and produce Season 1# and Season 2# ect ect.

See now, THIS guy knows his facts.

SUPERECWFAN1

12-11-2006, 01:34 PM

See now, THIS guy knows his facts.

Thanks...

I have the Hero Illustrated where Frank Miller royally ripped the Marvel company to their faces during a show when the Heroes World deal was annouced. He said that Marvel was declaring a war on the system of comics trying to get a monopoly and that they would go down.

Miller was really passionate about his hatred of Marvel and their tatics then.

Yaw

12-11-2006, 02:05 PM

Well said. It's even more offensive from Sinjection's point of view, because he finds disgust in any character relationship that isn't featuring two characters of the same color. Frankly Christopher Priest had the right idea about the Black Panther and Storm wedding when he planned it all those years ago. Develop it, have it happen, and have it not work out in the long run. Shame that he's not on the book instead of Reggie Hudlin.

Actually Priest was going to have BP turn into a villain and have Storm marry him to redeem him. Then they were going to get a divorce. Oh and while they were married he would have impregnated one of his Dora Milaje. Now tell me which one is more gimmicky.

Effect

12-11-2006, 02:12 PM

Actually Priest was going to have BP turn into a villain and have Storm marry him to redeem him. Then they were going to get a divorce. Oh and while they were married he would have impregnated one of his Dora Milaje. Now tell me which one is more gimmicky.

Sadly still Hudlin's version. The direction Priest would have went from what I've read in different places sounded pretty interesting.

Yaw

12-11-2006, 02:33 PM

Sadly still Hudlin's version. The direction Priest would have went from what I've read in different places sounded pretty interesting.

CAn you read ONE issue of Hudlin or Priest's run before you comment? Sheesh, I swear Hudlin beat your @$$ IRL cuz all I ever see is your troll on PAnther posts to diss Hudlin then you claim to have never read ANY issue of BP. Quite pathetic.

Beast

12-11-2006, 02:35 PM

Frodo-X

12-11-2006, 02:38 PM

Never mind.

Nevets F

12-11-2006, 02:43 PM

CAn you read ONE issue of Hudlin or Priest's run before you comment? Sheesh, I swear Hudlin beat your @$$ IRL cuz all I ever see is your troll on PAnther posts to diss Hudlin then you claim to have never read ANY issue of BP. Quite pathetic.

I have read several of Hudlin's issues, they are really bad. Preist's ideas were much better.

Tobias March

12-11-2006, 03:14 PM

Yeah put me down as another reader of Priest. I'm a big fan of the Black Panther's and for years couldn't understand the complaints at that run - namely that T'Challa was too clever, seemingly able to come out on top in any given situation.

Whereas here in this thread it's been alledged Priest was destroying the character, that through introducing the aneurysm plot thread he'd been weakened permanently.

Christopher Priest was destroying the Panther psychologically and physically. He had the Panther losing his mind and dying from a brain aneurysm. He'd planned to have him become a villian, only to then use what would be a failed marriage to Ororo to redeem himself. Priest was insulting and destroying the Panther.

Now what's a poor boy to think? I ask ye's. Black Panther is by rights one of the most original characters within the House of Marvel. Christopher Priest depicted him as a master strategist, a stateman and an expert in armed combat, far superior to the majority of the non-powered heroes in the MU....and he'd been emasculating him all the while?!? Sounds a bit General Ripper-ish (http://imdb.com/title/tt0057012/) to me.

It is contentions like this which make it impossible for me to relate to the points of view expressed here.

Here's another point: might this antagonism to Priest have something to do with his criticism of BET (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BET)?

Effect

12-11-2006, 03:16 PM

CAn you read ONE issue of Hudlin or Priest's run before you comment? Sheesh, I swear Hudlin beat your @$$ IRL cuz all I ever see is your troll on PAnther posts to diss Hudlin then you claim to have never read ANY issue of BP. Quite pathetic.

I've not once claimed I've never read an issue of BP. That sounds like something you've assumed about me. If I have said anything close to that then that was not my intent and I should have been clearer. While I no long purchase Hudlin's BP, I did for a time initially before the wedding, I do read it in order to keep up. Not every issues but enough. As I do with other titles I've been interested in but don't feel like buying or feel they are worth buying. There are plenty of titles I do this with. I'm working my way through Priest issues I can come across or find online but I'm in no rush at the moment.

Believe it or not my interest in BP was sparked while I was reading the Spider-man story The Other and that caused me to check some of the issues.

I don't think I've ever said for certain that Priest's version was better but the comments from a lot of others have made me search it out and that is what I'm doing now. However I have read Hudlin's version and I don't care for it at all. Initially I found it interesting but a combination of his comments, writing, direction, and rabid fans turned me off to it. Be honest the whole BET connection really counts against him as well I feel.

The Storm situation and the wedding (the entire way it was advertised and done) was what really turn me against his writing and continues to do so as I care more about her then I ever will about BP. However I'd be very interested in reading another writers take on the character. Which is why I'm looking forward to the Priest issues and any other appearance by BP in another title.

I actually find these arguments and discussions to fun and interesting truth be told. Not to mention very informative at times.

John Nowak

12-11-2006, 03:26 PM

What would you rather see...Storm in "The Arena" or Storm floating down majestically and beautifully adorned in magnificent wedding raiments to meet her ecstatically-happy husband-to-be on their wedding altar. If you choose "The Arena", then I'll have to wonder.....

You see, this is what makes me wonder, right here. Because, you see,

1) There Is No Such Person As Storm.
2) There Is No Such Person As The Black Panther
3) There Is No Such Place As Mighty Wakanda

Which is why, I think, Black Panther the comic gives off the same vibe as fanfic written by a 12-year-old girl where Storm marries Jack Sparrow and they become King and Queen of the Lollipop Kingdom. Except, of course, that the comic is supposed to be a professional product selling for about three bucks.

This is fiction. The only thing that matters is whether or not the story works.

I'd rather read

The Storm Within: Storm struggles with her chronic indigestion - written by Neil Gaiman

because Gaiman is one hell of a good writer.

Expletive Deleted

12-11-2006, 04:33 PM

Please talk about the comics, not each other. Thanks.

Dark Soul # 7

12-11-2006, 04:38 PM

Recently I've been thinking that the Marvel couples need to have some sort of formal dinner party. Maybe hosted by Reed and Sue Richards, it doesn't have to be in continuity.

Could be fun.

Captain Exaggeration

12-11-2006, 04:38 PM

You see, this is what makes me wonder, right here. Because, you see,

1) There Is No Such Person As Storm.
2) There Is No Such Person As The Black Panther
3) There Is No Such Place As Mighty Wakanda

Which is why, I think, Black Panther the comic gives off the same vibe as fanfic written by a 12-year-old girl where Storm marries Jack Sparrow and they become King and Queen of the Lollipop Kingdom. Except, of course, that the comic is supposed to be a professional product selling for about three bucks.

This is fiction. The only thing that matters is whether or not the story works.

I'd rather read

The Storm Within: Storm struggles with her chronic indigestion - written by Neil Gaiman

because Gaiman is one hell of a good writer.
*Weighing choices.*

I guess indigestion is a bit more... action packed.

John Nowak

12-11-2006, 04:52 PM

I guess indigestion is a bit more... action packed.

Let's not forget that Gaiman wrote instructions on how to use a condom. The story had solid characterization, humor, and a touch of terror.

Yaw

12-11-2006, 05:51 PM

Effect

I do have to say I'm really interested in reading Priest's run of BP after reading post about people talking about the differences between his and Hudlin's version which people seem to dislike (not everyone but some, mean Hudlin's version).

Would you be able to retype that question and answer?

^This was written concerning a Hudlin issue.

These statements coupled with some complaints you have made about Hudlin's run (BP and Wakanda's advanced and isolationist characteristics particularly) lend one to think you are not familiar with BP's history as a whole. Hudlin hasn't introduced very many *new* ideas as of yet. Sorry if I find it disconcerting for someone who does not like the character ( I'm not even talking about Hudlin here, just BP himself) but knows little about his history and yet continually hurls venom in his direction on every post concerning the character found on the web.

Sorry Expletive Deleted. you can delete my post if you wish but I just had to get that out there. Too much hate and not enough accountability. Informed opinions = good. Uninformed insults= lame. I just want to establish where Effect stands in this continuum in order to have a civil discussion with very vocal BP hater.

John Nowak

12-11-2006, 05:57 PM

Recently I've been thinking that the Marvel couples need to have some sort of formal dinner party. Maybe hosted by Reed and Sue Richards, it doesn't have to be in continuity.

Hey, I'd buy it. I love character-driven stories.

bluezulu

12-11-2006, 06:05 PM

Effect

^This was written concerning a Hudlin issue.

These statements coupled with some complaints you have made about Hudlin's run (BP and Wakanda's advanced and isolationist characteristics particularly) lend one to think you are not familiar with BP's history as a whole. Hudlin hasn't introduced very many *new* ideas as of yet. Sorry if I find it disconcerting for someone who does not like the character ( I'm not even talking about Hudlin here, just BP himself) but knows little about his history and yet continually hurls venom in his direction on every post concerning the character found on the web.

Sorry Expletive Deleted. you can delete my post if you wish but I just had to get that out there. Too much hate and not enough accountability. Informed opinions = good. Uninformed insults= lame. I just want to establish where Effect stands in this continuum in order to have a civil discussion with very vocal BP hater.

------------------
Thank you brother for this. As I wanted to find the quotes as I remembered them but did not want to waste even more time with a poster who next to beast it the strongest anti-Hudlin/black panther rider on this site. I sum up Beast as a Xmen stan first. While I don't agree with it, at least he is spending money and time/effort in being a vested advocate of a character he cares about. I don't doubt Beast care of the character of storm. He is just misguided, uninformed and dismissivly biased. Effect is the worst of the internet. He is why the internet is dangerous. You can do a quick wiki, lurk on boards and misrepresent your position on a topic. Hell you can read scans and be informed. Last week he did not even know who the dora milaje were. Come on :rolleyes: . Say what you want about the direction of the book but base it off of your experiance and not the internet chatter. But hey, back to the thread and off of each other.